Australia is seen by some as a Socialist country and by others as Capatalist, but can we be both?
Discuss.

How close is Socialist to opportunism ?

"Discuss". Sounds like an exam paper.

Hi Is Mise,

Australia is a democratic/capitalist country with
social support systems in place. Our government system
is very much democratic and we're very much capitalist.
I am too busy to discuss this in more detail - I'll
be back later on. This will have to do for now.

Define socialist....then I'll tell you if we are socialist.

Hi Issy,

Hadn't noticed you on the Forum for a few days, thought you had gone bush. Australia at times pretends to be politically a liberal democracy, we do achieve that lofty ambition on occasions. As for your question is Australia socialist? The short answer is yes, but only to a degree. Socialism is vital in a basically Capitalistic environment like ours as it provides all those necessities that Capitalism is incapable of providing universally without the incentive of the profit motive. or it can only provide such on a user pay basis. Without Socialism, the excesses of unfettered Capitalism would lead to injustices that are totally unacceptable in our modern liberal democracy.

Is Australia socialist?

I'd say no. Because our goods and services are largely
owned by private companies. People still sell their
labour to the highest bidder. And, relatively little
of our assets are owned by the state. But it is a bit of
a hotch-potch. The best of both worlds.

We do have a
strong welfare system namely our public health care
system. Many major hospitals and state railways are
government owned. We also have strong regulations
in regard to labour which means that big corporations
and small businesses can't legally exploit people.

Our governments have sold off - banks, airlines,
telecommunications, water, electricity, air-ports -
what's next?

It is the best of all worlds here in Australia.

It is the best of all worlds here in Australia.
Foxy,
So far I'd rather agree with you than not !

individual,

Onya!

Have to disagree there Foxy, Australian government expenditure accounts for 45% of GDP, with revenue at 35% taken directly from GDP, mostly in the form of taxation, plus an additional 10% in borrowings. Direct welfare payments alone accounts for about 10% of Federal government expenditure, add to that a myriad of other support costs in health, education, housing etc that government carries, then it can all be classed as redistribution of wealth, which is Socialism.

China viewed as a "Communist" country, but has less dependence on government spending as a percentage of GDP than Australia or America does, and a lot less than most European countries including Britain. In the majority of third world countries government revenue combined with borrowings is a lot less than in developed countries, for example where Australia is at 45%, Bangladesh is at around 15%. there are your true Capitalist countries.

Where one pays more Tax than another is not Socialism nor Capitalism, it's plain stupid.
When everyone pays the same Tax it's Democracy !
Where workers get paid a pittance from the buyers then that's Socialist Capitalism exploitation !
Where people get paid more for remembering the right answers in exams than actually producing revenue is a Westminster system !

We're a capitalist country, with some socialist-like policies

Good question Is Mise- but complex.

Society can be sliced and diced like the proverbial cake- it could in theory take different forms at different levels- it depends on how you structure the sandbox. I don't trust economic purists such as David Ricardo- but I can understand the wedge concerns of Ayn Rand in an impure system. If you change the system constantly capitalism is unable to manage risk. Communism is based on the fallacious principle of equality for unequal widgets. People need meaning- they need to feel that they control their own lives- but they also need security and stability.

Overall Deneen's view is that Locke Liberalism both Capitalist and Socialist forms are doomed to failure because the axioms are wrong.

In a sense the rise of progressive socialist liberalism occurred as a result of the emancipation of the population from the land- occurring as a result of mass agriculture- the rise of stock markets- industrialization- which led to the public social safety net.

But in a sense emancipation of the population from the land is unnecessary and undesirable due to industrialization being based on technology not land area.

The land could be the safety net.

But there are countries that can't feed themselves based on their own production- Srilanka currently has low foreign currency reserves for example.

It's easy to go about solving things before understanding the baseline and background

Basically socialism is when the taxes you pay are returned to you as services or as facilities for the common good and not given away to mates and sponsors by politicians who think they can freely plunder the vault - a global trend started in the eighties.

The nation building infrastructure (water, electricity, telecommunications, roads, schools, hospitals, defence, police and so on) was built on socialist principles and simply because there was no way it could be done privately at the time. Since then much of it has been taken out of public hands and privatised so now we are like former homeowners who forever have to pay rent for what we used to own.
We still have some welfare systems but these are needed to maintain civil order and to protect the wealthy from the otherwise hungry poor.

Nowadays the term is freely thrown around as if it's interchangeable with communism and something sinister coming from "the left".

Ongoing corporate bail-outs and subsidies for private companies suggest that some form of economic socialism still exists but common services for the general population are slowly being taken away.

for the common good and not given away to mates and sponsors ...
rache,
Yes, like giving to the unproductive Academic elite who just keep demanding more simply because they think the World needs them desperately !

My understanding of Socialism is a system that tells people that they are free, in control of everything, will have all their needs taken care of, and collectively own everything. The reality is that they have no power, no services, live where they are told to and do what they are told to, and own nothing. So no, Australia is not socialist.

I think it unfortunate that social welfare is equated with socialism. My view is that social welfare is what sets us apart from socialism.

It could be worse Indy, all the beer and pokie money paid to Old Farts as Aged Welfare, at no return what so ever to the taxpayer. I suppose some comes back as booze and alci tax and tax on their smokes. But then again there's all that dosh wasted on everything from cheap housing to cheap drugs.

Paul1405,
Sounds like serious tinges of guilt !

In the view of many Americans our universal health care system makes us socialist. However we run one of the most privatised school systems in the OECD, far in excess of the US rates.

We had a pretty good mix of socialism and capitalism but there is little doubts successive conservative governments have dramatically eroded the socialist legacy which had made this country one of the standouts.

Dear Steele,

That's why they need to be kicked out!

Surfing the Web today made it clear that Australia is capitalist with a severe twist of greed.
Looking at a number of electronics & cameras @ accessories, I almost toppled off my chair.
A $1000 item in NZ is $2000 in Aust. Go up two two or more grand & literally every item is double the cost here in comparison to NZ & USA/Europe.
WHO is responsible for this rip-off ? Govt taxes or importers ? A shop in Sydney advertised a filter set for almost $400 yet the US distributor has it advertised for $120.
Several months back I enquired for a Chinese made small Diesel engine which was advertised for $698 & when I asked as to how it would be dispatched to me I was told this would be via a courier at a cost $1420.
Am going stupid or are business practices here completely off the rails ? Same for small engineering jobs etc. A cup of coffee $8, a beer $7 & so on. These prices are not Govt, they're Union !

Bloody ridiculous Indy,

The only people who can afford those prices are Gina Rhinoceros and the Aged Welfare mob like you. 7 bucks for a beer, Jesus, you must be limiting yourself to 10 schooners a day, and a 100 bucks in the pokies! Times are tough for the Aged Welfare Mob......and poor GINA.

Nice to see you are out there drinking $8 coffees and $7 beers on us taxpayers. What I would give for a cup of instant or a sip of XXXX if only I could afford it. Such luxury a taxpayer like me can only dream of. How often I look through the windows down at God's Waiting Room, nose pressed up against the glass, watching the Old Farts, knocking back schooners, having a nosh up on taxpayer funded steak dinners, playing the pokies, winning all the chooks in the raffle, carrying off all the bingo prizes, playing the pokies. "Lest we forget".

the socialist legacy which had made this country one of the standouts.
SteeleRedux,
It's the legacy of Labor we're going through now. Considering the perpetual sabotage by Labor et al, the Coalition has managed rather well.

"Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears...."

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7282496-the-fundamental-error-of-socialism-is-anthropological-in-nature-socialism

John Paul II

No we aren't a socialist country.... yet.

mhaze,
Thumbs up for that one !

Individual said "Several months back I enquired for a Chinese made small Diesel engine which was advertised for $698 & when I asked as to how it would be dispatched to me I was told this would be via a courier at a cost $1420."

Answer-
I shouldn't be helping people trade with China but here you go-

I got a bit carried away with the research but I hope it's useful.
Search on ebay for "engine diesel".
Yes I was looking at small diesel recently too- for circular economy. The Royal Enfield Motorcycle Engine is diesel; "nitro" model engines run off oil; some Agri Pumps and Gensets are diesel. Recyclable Bio-Diesel- still not there yet- but interesting. These diesel engines are heavy so the postage is expensive- but maybe the cost is lower in volume- if someone was able to bring over a container load it might be economical.

20 ft container — $1,700 USD
40 ft container — $2,200 USD

http://seafreightglobal.com/rates-fcl-to-au.html
http://www.thecurrencyshop.com.au/business/how-to-import-china

For 30 motors the economics are better- the investment is about AUD$25K- and gets better with volume.

Units 30
Price Per Unit $698.00
Shipping Per Container 40' $2,200.00
Total $23,140.00
Min Retail Per Unit $771.33

This engines in Oz
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/144471275462?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item21a328b7c6:g:isAAAOSwuBhiOEMl&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAAA4Nm6GoIIFhl%2BPuaW%2FjPkpwIoSQACN0BXrs%2BIbIMgKwr7TeKdmctjcO9Prrrnc5m%2FIt1aTq%2BfcoeC3yScnC5QNGHyIy5dun3cQfBVtw7Ocx5UK09oKW%2F9ApsDcjCHO%2FKiD2k6M9p%2B3fx40jBVNZqOFXZ2H2ly10AtayHe7MDI8MxMywN8q0XNdbH2wXOpNLLiJt4f1ssNoTqEyuyTOznpgq8qhUXgxI6TRUYCqeQyqHoKyqG9cN6gXHrhjm33A02cxMiagqG0wJnOuCiB5yRWvDSsdnCbn4KiFz3hYkP6HV1A%7Ctkp%3ABFBMyvizrodg&frcectupt=true

Canem Malum,
Cheers for that. The prices I quoted were from within Australia. I ended up getting one from a Chinese Australian dealer for the same price with a freight charge of $80. The engine has been working flawlessly now fo over six months.
I think the difference was a dealer who wasn't out for ripping his customers off !

Well done Kudos Kid,

Another one of your indecipherable posts. What was that last bit, you quoting Arsethrottle as usual.

Paul1405,
I'm afraid, your prices are a rip-off !

Indy,

Great news, the Coalition's 'NO CASH CARD' for Old Farts, no more schooners, no more pokies! Life is bliss, or should that be beans. Bring on the Senior's National Service, can't wait.

I wouldn't call Paul1405 an "immovable mover".

Kudos Individual.

I don't know what worries so many Australians about the Chinese? Maybe the loud ones aren't Australian & only live here because it's better than where they came from ?
I've found on my minuscule macro scale of dealings with Chinese people that they provide excellent value with their services & goods unlike where I paid top Dollar for absolute poor service & poor workmanship with non Chinese.
It may just be high time for many to have a good long look into their mirror & check the receipts they write for their customers !

Indy, differences aside,

My Old Man said to me more than 40 years ago, the "Chow" isn't a bad bloke son, he'll not cheat ya, he's hard but he's fair. He knew the Chinese, his mother inviting Chinamen from the market gardens of Sydney into her front parlor to teach them English, much to the disgust of some neighbours, they were keen learners. It was important that a couple in each garden could speak some English, the "Head Man" could always speak fair English, his 2IC not so well, but a little, the others very little to none.

The Chinese gardens ran a "Communist" system long before Mao. According to Dad, a Chinaman came to Australia for 20 years to work for no pay, only keep, could have had a family back home, wife and kids even, worked for the 20 years, and then given an entire years profit from the Garden, returned to China to live a comfortable rest of life, replaced by a new man. According to Dad they all came from the same "village" in China. BTW nothing left the garden permanently, except the produce and one man a year, if you know what I mean. Lots more to the story, prostitutes and opium, but that will do for now.

individual,

The Sky News audience declared Albanese the winner.

______________________________________________________________

ttbn,

I wish that I could have seen the debate for myself
instead of relying on other's interpretations. It
would have been interesting to see both the questions
asked and the answers given first-hand.

I think that corruption is a bread-and-butter issue -
and it does impact on people's daily lives.

When taxpayer money that should be prioritised for things
such as - healthcare, aged-care, education, welfare,
disability support, and building a climate resilient country
is either cut or re-directed into the coffers of fossil fuel
companies or used for highly questionable projects in
marginal electorates the voters are aware they are missing out.

I think that people do want a federal ICAC - and it is one
of the top priorities in this election.

For his part the Labor leader has pledged to establish
a federal watchdog "with teeth" by the end of this year
if Labor wins the election.

I gather that when questioned in the debate about the Coalition's
broken promise the PM first tried to blame Labor but when that
didn't work - he had nothing new to say - and he changed the subject.

It would have been interesting to watch.

OOOOOps - sorry - wrong thread.

This should have gone on the "Compare the pair,"
thread.

Capitalism for the rich, Socialism for the poor

Look at all these big companies during the pandemic.
How much did Qantas and Harvey Norman get?
They privatise their profits, and socialise their losses.

What many Australians don't realise is the biggest recipient of welfare in Australia, is not collectively individuals, but business. What my Old Man would say about farmers "Good season Capitalists, bad season Socialists". What many don't realise the Country Party (National Party) in its informative years was very much a Socialist party.

Dear mhaze,

And from the same CENTESIMUS ANNUS the Pope said:

“In spite of the great changes which have taken place in the more advanced societies, the human inadequacies of capitalism and the resulting domination of things over people are far from disappearing. In fact, for the poor, to the lack of material goods has been added a lack of knowledge and training which prevents them from escaping their state of humiliating subjection.”

…

“Here we find a wide range of opportunities for commitment and effort in the name of justice on the part of trade unions and other workers' organizations. These defend workers' rights and protect their interests as persons, while fulfilling a vital cultural role, so as to enable workers to participate more fully and honourably in the life of their nation and to assist them along the path of development.
In this sense, it is right to speak of a struggle against an economic system, if the latter is understood as a method of upholding the absolute predominance of capital, the possession of the means of production and of the land, in contrast to the free and personal nature of human work.73 In the struggle against such a system, what is being proposed as an alternative is not the socialist system, which in fact turns out to be State capitalism, but rather a society of free work, of enterprise and of participation. Such a society is not directed against the market, but demands that the market be appropriately controlled by the forces of society and by the State, so as to guarantee that the basic needs of the whole of society are satisfied.”

And here is a reference as you don't seem capapble of looking these things up yourself.

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus.html

He was a lot more balanced than what you have made out.

I'm sure that the Country/ National party is very "informative" in it's own way- since it's "formation".

Absolutely you pompous git, formative is the correct word, everytime you see a "mistake" on the forum, are you going to jump in and jerk the gherkin as you just did. What a loser! Google up some more of Arsethrottle and quote him here, rather than making you look superior, it just makes you look even more stupid.

Cancel culture is an ideological dictatorship.

There are now too many people for any form of Socialism to work. Democracy hasn't got a chance & Leftism has ensured that it is so !

Kudos AC.

Dear Armchair Critic,

You say: "Cancel culture is an ideological dictatorship."

Isn't it also the right of every individual to decide where and when to spend their own money?

In some ways this has replaced having a say via an increasingly corrupt political landscape in this country, one where Coalition seats gain hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes and fossil fuel companies and mining billionaires dictate government policy to a very high degree.

Democracy via the wallet shouldn't only be the prerogative of the wealthy wouldn't you agree?

I'm not saying I entirely agree with it

Hi Steele, I like your comments, what do you think of this situation.

A personal example of "injustice" in my view, Yesterday our niece in Sydney was crying on the phone, Our moko (grandniece not yet 2 years) requires immediate therapy for both a physical disability, can't walk yet, or feed herself properly. She also needs speech therapy, immediately according to the doctor, as she is at a critical age. The cost is very expensive if done privately, which they just can't afford, they have 2 children and pay rent, one full time job (husband), and one part time job (wife). The doctor said I can get "moko" onto a waiting list, niece said; "Doctor, you said its critical now", all the doctor said is "that's all I can do" He told niece there is a few things she can do at home with the moko, but she does need professional. AND WE ARE BUY BILLION DOLLAR NUK SUBS! Where are our priorities?

Australia wake up, you are being ripped off by your own government!

SteeleRedux said- "You say: "Cancel culture is an ideological dictatorship." Democracy via the wallet shouldn't only be the prerogative of the wealthy wouldn't you agree? I'm not saying I entirely agree with it."

Answer- Quote "I'm not saying I entirely agree with it." I think SteeleRedux has made a step into a wider universe. Kudos SteeleRedux

you are being ripped off by your own government!
Paul1405,
No, we're being perpetually sabotaged by the likes of you !

There you go again another attack.

We've had enough people from your side of politics, there was Attila The Hen, and Raving Ronnie, now we are stuck with Indy The Irksome.

How can we ever hope to have a harmonious & functioning society when we have people such as Paul1405 et al using up our resources for no other reason than being of no use for anything, anyone nor themselves !

hi

Hi flyfin, welcome to the Forum. You will find "us of many political colours" in this space, enjoy the experience.

"Isn't it also the right of every individual to decide where and when to spend their own money?"

Of course it is, no matter what anyone says.
It's their money after all but try telling these people in the 4 corners investigation that, or the government who manages their affairs on their behalf and I'm sure you will find a lot of disagreement.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/state-control:-australians-trapped,-stripped-of/13795520

"Democracy via the wallet shouldn't only be the prerogative of the wealthy wouldn't you agree?"

Yes of course I agree, it shouldn't give extra benefits to the rich who can purchase it.

Democracy, isn't a universal thing though.
Each country has their own version.
If we all agreed on a 'correct version' then maybe we could get it right.

And one thing that Western democracies have in common though is in joining the UN, and Western monetery policy.
You know I read today that being a member of the UN allows for the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a member.
(As if they didn't have that right already)
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/lend-lease-for-ukraine-us-revives-wwii-anti-hitler-policy-to-defeat-putin/

Does this imply that that Non-UN member countries don't have that right?

The UN decides immigrant quotas and refers people and that creates a host of new problems where new people aren't aligned with the existing countries culture.

So I see a kind of difference between national democracy -
where the existing inhabitants decide their future,
(and this today includes a diluted immigrant demographics and a two horse race preference system, - because the two parties prefer that you only vote for them)
And international democracy where we are ruled outright by foreigners and external overseas treaties, aka international obligations.

Both of these things erode democracy, to the point it only exists in theory for the citizenry, but not in practice.

It's their money after all
Armchair Critic,
Yes & no. Spending more of "your money" in other Nations than what you pay in Tax here is all that good for the Nation you chose to live in.
For a small Nation such as Australia an excessive amount of money going offshore is curbing a lot of Nation-building progress.
Spending "your money" here is great for all here but spending it overseas is not.

Doesn't Socialist mean sharing & equality ? Well, there is no political party & even fewer voters in Australia that stand for those values.
So, Coalition or Labor is what we have to chose between.

Interesting thoughts Armchair Critic- thanks.

Indy, I see the Morrison mob have been right into socialism once more, this time splashing taxpayer cash buying votes. Its $250 of beer and pokie money for the aged welfare mob.

Paul1405 can't see that his bureaucrat salary is even more of a hand-out than the this payment, that's why he can't appreciate the value of $250 !