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The Forum > General Discussion > What If New Zealand Became Aotearoa

What If New Zealand Became Aotearoa

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Maori, not only want their land back, they want their whole country back. It is estimated 8.3 million hectares, about 73% of the North Island, and the entire South Island, were illegally taken from Maori through land confiscation and inequitable purchases between 1840 and 1939.

Land occupations by Maori protectors (not protestors) have cropped up across New Zealand. There are many complex questions to be answered by the Pakeha (European) government in Wellington concerning Maori ownership of most of New Zealand.

Should Australia prepare itself for an influx of five million refugees from across the ditch? Oh, that may not be possible as the European has the same issues in Australia.

As the Maori say; Tenei whenua naku.

This land is my land.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 26 February 2022 7:03:26 AM
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Paul,

And what about the original inhabitants that were there before the Maori? should the other Pacific neighbours be prepared to take them back.

Most of these requests for "their" land back are rent-seeking tactics for more handouts from the other 85% of the population.
Posted by shadowminister, Saturday, 26 February 2022 9:15:36 AM
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SM,

That is a furphy, there is no evidence that a mysterious people occupied Aotearoa before the arrival of the Polynesians between 700 and 1,000 years ago. The Moriori arrived in Aotearoa around 1400AD. Once believed to be a Melonesian people, it has now been established they to were of Polynesian origin. The Moriori migrated from Aotearoa to the Chatham Islands, 650 km away, around 1500AD.

I refute the cynical claim of "rent-seeking tactics". I have spoken to many Maori people about this issue, and all have an affinity with the land, and are not seeking monetary compensation.

In my wife's father's case. He was an illiterate man, he "sold" his 250 ac of excellent cattle fattening pasture, with road frontage, a house, spring fed creek, developed vegetable garden, fences and power connected for $500, not cash, but store credit. He actually believed he was signing a 40 year lease on the land, not a bill of sale on all, except the homestead and its surroundings about 5 ac, where he could live out his days. What did the new owner do, incorperated all the land he obtained by such tactics and then on sold it at a very handsome profit, estimated he received about $14,000 for the old man's parcel alone. The new owner then burn down 5 homesteads in the valley, to clear the occupants. That wasn't in the 1870's but in the 1970's. Today we are not seeking the return of the land through legal proceedings, but are willing to pay the present owner upto $100,000 to buy the land back. Now whose's the money grabber?
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 26 February 2022 11:32:36 AM
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Will Paul1405 vacate/give the Australian land he occupies back to the original inhabitants ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 26 February 2022 11:57:43 AM
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Dear Paul,

I'm not sure how all this will end.
Or how it will be resolved. I wish
them well and perhaps a compromise
can be reached that will satisfy all parties.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 26 February 2022 12:49:54 PM
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Hi Foxy,

Yes, the final outcome will be of interest. I see a couple of the forums Usual Suspects not being able to argue the facts, look to diversion as an out.

Something to ponder;

Between 1864 and 1867 the NZ Pakeha government confiscated 3.25 million acres of Maori tribal land on the grounds that Maori had been in rebellion against the sovereignty of the Crown. The Maori had "rebelled" because of frequent violations of the Treaty of Waitangi. The Pakeha government even confiscated land from Maori who had not been in rebellion, as a so called deterant should they also rebell.

Today we make much of "the rule of law", but for some it only applies when it suits. Legal people agree, the NZ Settlements Act 1863, which was used to justify this land grab was illegal in itself. A crime committed 160 years ago is as crimnal as a crime committed yesterday.

Gives Putin an idea, the Ukrainian Settlement Act 2022, he can take the whole bloody country on the grounds the Ukrainians have been "rebellious". BTW the NZ government has condemned Russia for illegally taking land. Okay well we have our standards.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 26 February 2022 2:55:27 PM
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Yes of course, & the Normans should give the UK back to the Celts.

It's a winner takes all world Paul, you should be more worried about a Chinese take over of the lot of the place.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 26 February 2022 4:25:29 PM
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Hassy,

Your belief in a dog eat dog world is well known on the Forum. You favour the use of atomic weapons to kill millions.

My idea is to take all the old farts who have outlived their usefulness and turn them into cannon fodder. How old are you? 85 or there abouts, Hummmmm, what size cannon would fit you?
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 26 February 2022 7:08:48 PM
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Seriously Foxy? I've deleted the comment and the commenter. You just needed to let me know!
Posted by GrahamY, Saturday, 26 February 2022 11:10:14 PM
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I didn't ask for the comment to be deleted because of the content, business is business, no moral judgement on my part, but no free advertising. Besides they could have been Russian girls, and sanctions are sanctions, we must play our part so said Scotty. The price of blow up dolls just doubled on the world market.

Thanks GY.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 27 February 2022 4:43:40 AM
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Hassy,

I don't think the Celts are around any more, unless you count the Celtic United Football Club. BTW it was the Anglo-Saxon's who got bowled over by the Normans at the Battle of Hastings, 1066 and all that, were you there?

On the other hand, the Maori are still alive and kicking, and want their country back.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 27 February 2022 8:29:58 AM
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Hi Graham,

It's reassuring you're keeping an eye on things.

Take care.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 27 February 2022 8:55:54 PM
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If the Canaanites can be found maybe we can get Palestinians and Israelis to leave Israel and bring them back. The Book of Joshua describes a genocidal occupation of their land. Of course genocide becomes acceptable when God orders it.

Joshua 8:24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai who had pursued them into the field and wilderness, and when every last one of them had fallen by the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and put it to the sword as well. 25A total of twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai. 26Joshua did not draw back the hand that held his battle lance until he had devoted to destructionb all who lived in Ai. 27Israel took for themselves only the cattle and plunder of that city, as the LORD had commanded Joshua.

In the New Testament God gets worse. He has his own son subjected to an agonizing death.

Thankfully, the English in Aotearoa behaved better than the god of the Bible. They didn't exterminate all the Maori, but they tried to give them the God of the Bible. No reasonable person needs that bloody monster.
Posted by david f, Monday, 28 February 2022 10:59:53 AM
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Hi David,

The traditional Maori people are religious, we have a number of ministers within the family. My wife is a practising C of E, but has two bob each way with her Maori gods.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 28 February 2022 4:20:18 PM
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Dear Paul,

My older son studies religion as an anthropologist and has written about the religious aspects of Amazonian indian peoples. His brother is a member of an atheist club. He is inactive because he found them boring although he still is an atheist. My daughter lights the Jewish Sabbath candles on Friday night, sings in the Unitarian choir on Sunday morning, attends a Buddhist sangha on Sunday afternoon and has received her certificate as a Buddhist lay practitioner from the Blue Cliff Monastery. I am fascinated by and appalled by religion and found MacCulloch's "A History of Christianity" fascinating and appalling. I worship my wife.
Posted by david f, Monday, 28 February 2022 5:03:26 PM
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Hi David,

Not to be boring.

Buddha story; When asked is there a god?

To the believer Buddha said; Yes there is a god.

To the Atheists Buddha said; No there is no god.

The point being the existence of God is irrelevant to ones behaviour good or bad. Take Putin for example, he may well believe in God, he could well pray 10 times a day, on the other hand he might be a complete atheist. None of that is relevant, what is, is Putin's earthly behaviour.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 1 March 2022 5:04:04 AM
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There's a God & there's no God, it all depends what you want to believe !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 1 March 2022 7:39:27 AM
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So the Maori after committing genocide and cannabilism against the Moriori the original occupiers now supposedly want the whole of New Zealand for themselves.

There is no legal basis for this and is never going to happen.
Posted by shadowminister, Tuesday, 1 March 2022 8:18:23 AM
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SM,

I see your knowledge of Maori history is the same as all your other knowledge...ZERO!

Just because you mistakenly spent a whole term at the 'June Dally Watkins School of Deportment for Young Ladies', before you realised it wasn't a course in Engerneering. That does not give you the right to claim you are university qualified in Engineering with majors in Law, Economics, Politics, History and Sponge Cake Decorating. What it does educate you to do, is choose the right handbag to accessories with your high heels....NOTHING MORE!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 1 March 2022 5:27:44 PM
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SM,

You make your bold statement without having the slightest bit of historical knowledge. Obviously Professor Google was unable to enlighten you on the subject. You had not heard of the Moriori until I mentioned them, then you thought you would claim they were the first inhabitants of Aotearoa. As you don't accept any historical accounts, other than those of the Whitefella such as that unreliable, half mad, drunken sailor, Jimmy Cook.

The Maori have their own account of the discovery and settlement of the land of Aotearoa. The tradition tells us of two brothers who arrived with their respective clans from a place they called Hawaiki to an uninhabited island where one brother settled in the east, and the other to the west.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 2 March 2022 6:48:17 AM
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Pauliar,

Compared to your year 6 education in juvie, I am a genius. So the Maori are pulling the terra nullius argument? There is plenty of evidence that the Moriori occupied New Zealand before the Maori invasion.

The Maori probably considered them fauna for the pot.
Posted by shadowminister, Wednesday, 2 March 2022 8:16:37 AM
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Evidence shonkyarse, where is your evidence. Didn't you not claim that while studying deportment for young ladies at 'June Dallies' that the Bunyip People led by your mates Beat Up Bolt and Cry Baby Porter, arrived in Australia before the aboriginals. You will believe anything.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 3 March 2022 9:59:25 AM
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Paul, if NZ becomes Aotearoa, surely that will be the result of the merging of cultures rather than continued clashes?

______________________________________________________________________________

Shadow, AIUI the Maori are descended entirely from the Moriori, and there were no humans in NZ before the ancestors of the Maori arrived.

Have you any evidence my understanding is incorrect?
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 13 March 2022 10:04:05 PM
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Aidan,

Look it up. The Maori are not related to the Moriori. The Maori came from Polynesia and wiped out most of the Moriori and as such are not the first people.

Pauliar is a scholar of conviction having graduated from juvie with a solid D- and an extensive record who cannot prove anything he posts mostly because it is the result of chemically induced delusions. Or from BS generated by Bend over Bandt, Syph Hanson Young or some other disease-ridden pedogreen.
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 21 March 2022 1:26:49 PM
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Shadow,
I looked it up. The following is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori :

The Moriori are the native Polynesian people of the Chatham Islands (Rakohu in Moriori; Wharekauri in Maori), New Zealand. Moriori originated from Maori settlers from the New Zealand mainland around 1500 CE.[2] This was near the time of the shift from the archaic to classic Maori culture on the main islands of New Zealand.[3][4] Oral tradition records multiple waves of migration to the Chatham Islands, starting in the 16th century.[5][6] Over several centuries these settlers' culture diverged from mainland Maori, developing a distinctive language (which started as a dialect but gradually became only partially intelligible with Maori), mythology, artistic expression and way of life.[7] Currently there are around 700 people who identify as Moriori, most of whom no longer live on the Chatham Islands.[8] During the late 19th century some prominent anthropologists mistakenly proposed that Moriori were pre-Ma;ori settlers of mainland New Zealand, and possibly Melanesian in origin.[9][10]

Early Moriori formed tribal groups based on eastern Polynesian social customs and organisation. Later, a prominent pacifist culture emerged; this was known as the law of nunuku, based on the teachings of the 16th century Moriori leader Nunuku-whenua.[11] This culture made it easier for Taranaki Ma;ori invaders to nearly exterminate them in the 1830s during the Musket Wars. This was the Moriori genocide, in which the Moriori were either murdered or enslaved by members of the Nga;ti Mutunga and Ngati Tama iwi,[12] killing or displacing nearly 95% of the Moriori population.

The Moriori, however, were not extinct, and gained aroha and recognition as New Zealand's second indigenous people over the course of the next century, even if what happened to them was taught sparingly due to government suppression of knowledge of the genocide.
Posted by Aidan, Tuesday, 22 March 2022 7:59:06 AM
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Hi Aiden,

SM had no knowledge of the Moriori until I enlightened him after he made a claim that there were "people" in NZ before the arrival of the first Polynesians, he couldn't name them. My wife studied Maori history for two years in Auckland, and taught Te Reo (Maori language) for several years at night. As she tells me, there is no evidence that the Moriori ever settled the main islands, but did occupy the Chatham Islands about 800km from the South Island. Shamefully both Maori and European committed genocide against the Moriori on the Chatham Islands, the last episode taking place in the 1930's, with the last full blooded Moriori passing in 1937 or 38. Testing of part decedents show Moriori were also of Polynesian ancestry.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 22 March 2022 5:21:29 PM
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