Defunding Police falls in a heap.

Spiked.

http://www.spiked-online.com/2022/02/12/the-deadly-consequences-of-defund-the-police/

*… Numerous black New York officials counselled against Defund. One described this woke belief in trimming cop numbers as a form of political ‘colonisation’ pushed by white progressives. Another said it had the whiff of ‘political gentrification…*

The question being asked at last is :
*… – how was this ‘bullshite’ allowed to ‘destroy cities’?…*(quote).

We all know the answer to that one!

Dan

So far, touch wood, our nutters haven’t started on that rot. In the US, fewer police has meant more trouble for poor Afro- Americans: the very people the nutters claim to be concerned about.

Dan,

Looks like defunding the police could take on here.

Defunding essential services is nothing short of mad ! What's needed is to bring salaries & wages to a level which makes it possible to maintain costs & prices at a static level for at least ten years. That'll result in a healthy economy for generations simply because future generations will naturally adopt the mentality needed.
The 'Growth" mentality is only pushed by the economically inept !

Hi there DIVER DAN & TTBN...

Any notions of defunding the police is sheer madness in my humble opinion. Like 'em or hate 'em they are a necessary evil, and without them anarchy will reign supreme. I think both of you know I was in the job for many years and I'm the first to admit there are many (entrenched) problems in the Force, including illegality and individual misfeasance.

The only other apparatus we have to maintain law & order is to induct the Military into the job. And when necessary, declare martial law. If this was done, general policing would look like a kiddies afternoon tea party. Under martial law the Military don't muck around let me tell you.

O sung wu,

You are probably thoroughly browned off by this defund nonsense after your years of service.

I don't recall any of our local idiots calling for it and, while nothing and nobody is perfect, I think Australia's police forces do pretty well by us.

Around 60-70 US police officers, where this defund rubbish is rife, are murdered in the line of duty each year. Many of them black officers, whose lives apparently don't matter to the BLM as much those of black civilians.

All I can say is that people wanting to defund police anywhere are morons who have never needed assistance from police.

I am totally against defunding any of our security,
defence, or protection services be they police,
military, ambulance, fire-fighters, et al.

I have the highest respect for all of them and feel
that we would be in dire straits without them.

They deserve our full support and funding.

What a click bait article.

It claims: “The March 2021 piece was about Oakland in California, where local officials took the post-Floyd anger of 2020 to heart and made plans to cut police spending by a whopping 50 per cent – around $150 million a year. Then the killings started. And other forms of crime. In 2020 there were 107 murders in Oakland, compared with 75 in 2019.”

The thing is those cuts were never instituted, they wouldn’t have anyway in the time frame stated above, and the number of serving frontline officers remained the same.

So how on earth did this contribute to the rise in murders? Simple answer, it didn’t.

Leaving the beatup aside there is a pretty basic question, what is the balance between social spending and spending on law enforcement? It is certainly inarguable that social spending lowers crime just as it is that without police lawlessness of one stripe or another prevails. But to cut social spending in half to double law enforcement to deal with the result is backward. This is what had happened in some US cities.

This is in a sense what we are seeing in Victoria at the moment. It use to be that police numbers per 100,000 citizens pretty well matched that of NSW at around 278 officers in 2010.

Ten years later the NSW figures had fallen slightly to 263 officers per 100,000 while the Victorian figures had blown out to 327 and still by all accounts accelerating.

“Victoria Police now has 22,000 personnel and government funding worth $4 billion a year, surpassing that of NSW Police even though the northern state is three-times the geographical size with 1.4 million more people.”
The Age

All the result of political parties trying to outdo themselves on the law and order question.

During nearly the same period the percentage increase in spending on police doubled that of education and percentage increase in spending on the prison system trebled that figure.

Where does this all end and what is needed to turn it around?

black officers, whose lives apparently don't matter to the BLM as much those of black civilians.
ttbn,
For a start, it should be it ADLM (all decent lives matter) but what BLM has achieved is to put BCLM (black criminal lives matter) before anything.
Police are challenged way beyond what anyone should have to tolerate & to even just think about defunding their ability to counter the masses of criminal idiots out there is even more idiotic than those morons putting up statues to criminals who pushed Police too far for too long ! Just how much more patience & self control do people think Police should muster ?
Rather than defund Police it should be proposed to defund correctional facilities. A lot more money could be saved from doing away with gyms, recreational equipment, computers etc. in jails !

SteeleRedux

The US defunding police band wagon departed station madness in 2020. Trump was in power.

NY actually defunded their PD’s by $1b. Half from capital works and half from reduced budgets, to redistribute $500m to mostly youth services, directly and indirectly.
Nothing wrong with funding social services, but there is something disturbing about defunding your local Police to raise the funds in order to fund social services That’s madness.

The rioting youth who were happy to burn down police stations in Minneapolis and Seattle in 2020, were recipients of largesse from City officials which allowed them the ability to burn down and loot shops in down town areas unmolested by police interference from understaffed police stations.

As for Melbourne’s increased Police presence, that fact allowed them to control potential riotous crowds effectively without suffering the indignity of Police failure so obviously on display in mostly Democrat States of the US.

Dan

Dear diver dan,

NYC was forced to find over 10% savings in its budget overall. The police did have one sixth of their budget redirected to other departments but so was some of their workload.

The police were forced to institute a hiring freeze but so were most of the other departments.

But I am keen to know where your mark is? How many police per 100,000 do you think is justified? Should we be prepared to end up like the US with the highest percentage of its citizens behind bars? Where do you think the balance lies? Should we like them go without an expensive universal health system and put more policing resources into dealing with the inevitable wave of crime resulting from desperate people bankrupted by medical expenses?

What does your utopia look like?

SteeleRedux

Your painting a wall with striped paint again aren’t you!
There’s a miasmic unpleasantness to you at times SR.

I’m referring to the NYCM PD. 2020 budget. It was reduced by $1bn .
$500m from Capital expenditure such as new buildings refurbishments and maintenance. A further $500m from reduced funding. Percentage of that would be more than 6%, but I’m not interested in doing the math.
There was the addition of overtime and recruitment freezes.

Your other complaint was…ah yes my mark?
My mark with policing is maintains its independence out of the hands of politicians and the military.

We are extremely lucky in Australia on that score, give or take some failures eg political use of nsw special force by Balilro against friendly Jordies.
And the disturbing growing trend of intrusive policing by specialist terrorist forces.
That’s a big worry when it’s politicians with the say as to what is a specific terrorist group.

You’ve conflated two issues in your comment, policing and the judiciary. It’s not Police that jail criminals, it’s the courts.

Your stray issue of the quality of society. Policing is a necessary part of a stable society.
The police force numbers should be adequate to maintain their policing roll successfully.
That one is a political issue unfortunately.

Whats my view of utopia? Survival in adequate circumstances prior to inevitable death.

Dan.

Dear diver dan,

Well that got a laugh.

Mate, I am painting the picture with broad strokes and all you are seeing is just the stripes you want to see.

You claim "My mark with policing is maintains its independence out of the hands of politicians and the military."

The public via the politicians fund police numbers. Please let me know of a single Australian police force which has rejected extra funding thrown at them by law and order cash splashes. In Victoria the political one-upmanship has gotten completely out of hand and the State is having to find and extra 4 billion dollars annually to fund it.

Yet all you can say is they should be funded to provide adequate policing to the community. Well who do you envisage determines that?

Many thanks TTBN...

I'm the first to admit, Australia's policing could well be improved, but compared to many forces abroad, we're miles ahead. Especially when juxtaposed with some of those countries in South America where police corruption is rife. The days of resorting to the White Pages is long gone as it should be. Moreover it's a case now of smart policing outsmarting some, not so smart crooks. Thanks again TTBN.

The massive increase in crime rates in progressive cities in the US such as Oakland is no coincidence and is entirely due to the woke politics of their councillors.

Nobody joins the police force for the money, it is normally a calling. For police putting their lives on the line, every day depends on their superiors having their backs. Oakland while not actually reducing the spending on police froze any new recruitment leading to record low numbers. They also made the police feel like criminals resulting in large numbers of resignations.

Also, the new problems with physically restraining criminals made policing the crime-ridden black areas physically and legally dangerous and with the catch and release bail conditions crime has soared not only in Oakland but in all "progressive" cities.

SteeleRedux

We live in very confused times. While left wing fanaticals (viz “Dictator Dan”), bolster their defences against the imagined threat from the right wing, increasing police numbers to do it, their own side is actually its own enemy, burning down city centres and attacking Police headquarters in the US, the more dramatic example.

It’s the perception of crime among Politicians, and their inability to recognise the actual causes behind crime, the problem here.

Striped rainbow paint comes in a tin doesn’t it? Check your garage for me and report back Constable.

Dan.

Wow Ahhh…

Check this one out: headlines this morning

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-17/inside-mick-fullers-nsw-police-punters-club/100818960
.

Corruption at the top of NSW police force again.

Time for another Woods type Royal Commission into NSW police.
Actually, I think personally, after the evacuation of the NSW Premier and her Deputy recently, it’s actually time for a top down Royal Commission investigation into NSW Political corruption.

Dan

Australia's policing could well be improved,
o sung wu,
I can only think of one method to achieve improvement & that's the introduction of a kind of National Service but with a military aspect to be optional & this option has to be available only to those who can satisfy a criteria based on proven integrity !
Those who think we should not have a NS are fools who are fooling themselves !

Hi there Individual...

I fully support your suggestion that a form of National Service be reintroduced for both males and females. And it doesn't necessarily need to follow along military lines, however it does require an element of discipline to be imposed, in order to inculcate a level of personal and institutional discipline, for the good of the individual as well as the community. Perhaps then, an increase in the number of police may not be needed?

Yes o sung wu & individual, a year of national service would do the kids a great deal of good, but I wouldn't make it in any city area.

Most of them have been brainwashed into some form of environmentalist belief. & many would denounce using fire to reduce fuel loads in national parks & state forests. So lets give them a year close to nature, so they might actually get some idea of the subject.

Lets put a national service in to cleaning out these areas, to make then safer in a bad fire season, & simultaneously giving them some personal understanding of bush scrub & forest, & a stake in the proper treatment of these areas. A year of working in the outdoors would be good for both their physical & mental health, & give many of them a needed time to grow up, & mature. A chance to clear some of the brain washing of our education system, before work or uni.

Incidentally, good to see you back o sung wu, you should visit more often.

Perhaps then, an increase in the number of police may not be needed?
o sung wu,
You're on the nail there.

.....but I wouldn't make it in any city area.
Hasbeen,
Too right, after twelve months away from the National indoctrination facilities they would literally tell their former fellow indoctrinated to get a life !

Dear Diver Dan,

You seem to be agreeing that the police numbers surge we have in Victoria is not based on needs but rather driven by the Premier's interest for whatever reason.

Well done.

Therefore should they be defunded to bring them more in line with the NSW figures of officers per 100,000 of the population rather than the approximately 20% over and above at the moment?

SteeleRedux

What I’m saying outright, no alluding, is Victorian Police numbers appear to be sufficient to deal with rioting crowds.
Now that is in direct variation to outcomes in the US where Police packed up and walked away from their responsibility to maintain (should we say), peace and order etc.

Comparing Police numbers between States is incomprehensible to me, since I’m not in the game of determining such things, but judging by outcomes in front of all, Police numbers in Victoria appear to work, and where is there an obvious problem in NSW with less Police than Victoria?

What is obvious is that neither NSW or Victoria are defunding Police, especially on ideological grounds applicable to wayward youth rioting and looting with immunity under the pretence that BL actually M. Ideological BS wouldn’t you agree?

Defunding Police with any expectation that law and order will remain static is not only illogical but plainly is having a detrimental effect, are the article linked above in my original post,

Now SR,does the above heavy dialogue clear up your question?

Dan.