Both China and Turkey have dictatorial leaders that are repressing any opposition and trying to control the economy with ideological policies rather than tried and true economics-based policies.

Erdogan has imprisoned more than 70 000 people on flimsy evidence and had a further 100 000 odd fired. He has lowered interest rates well below the rate of inflation causing inflation to skyrocket and the lira to crash, real incomes to shrink causing misery.

Xi has imprisoned more than 1000 000 in a slow running genocide, has overseen the crashing of the housing industry, and has hugely regulated the tech industries, the teaching industries etc, and punished foreign investors resulting in about 20 000 foreign businesses pulling out of China and putting nearly 300 000 000 out of permanent employment with no social security.

The crap is about to hit the fan in both countries and the question is whether the rest of the world is prepared for the fallout.

Hey shadow, do you know if Erdogan takes on outside contracts.

We could certainly use someone in Canberra for a week or two to fire 100,000 of our useless lot.

Turkey is a close allie of the United States, and China will soon overtake the US as the world's leading economic power.

Paul,

I can't tell whether you are really thick, have been living under a rock, or base your thoughts on failed socialist ideology instead of facts.

Turkey is a part of NATO but has certainly not been a close ally of the US since Erdogan took office a decade ago and even banned the sale of sensitive equipment to Turkey.

Anyone following the news in China would realise that China is not going to overtake the US economically anytime soon if ever. The housing market which has represented 30% of China's economy and 80% of total household wealth is collapsing shedding millions of jobs in both the construction and support industries, with huge losses for provincial and federal governments.

State vanity projects such as high-speed rail cannot even cover operating costs with ticket sales let alone pay their loans, and with covid, power shortages, fuel shortages and electricity shortages private companies are going bankrupt left right and centre.

The banks (all state-owned) that have loaned $Ts against private and state assets are now technically bankrupt.

China will be lucky to see 2030 without wide-scale rioting let alone becoming the world dominant economic and military power.

SM, you again resort to name calling, it's your ideological slant that sees you attacking China. Some would describe China as an economic miracle, but not you. As for Turkey they are part of the American NATO puppet.

Paul,

When you post uninformed bollocks as gospel then I will have a go at you.

For example, both South Korea and Taiwan started at the same time as China and both have far outstripped China in terms of GDP per capita.

China's miracle has achieved massive growth on the back of wildly unrealistic government spending leading to levels of debt at state, provincial and personal levels that would make Greece seem fiscally responsible.

While asset values and the economy were growing rapidly the debt would appear manageable. But with the pandemic and other countries tightening up imports, China's growth has been curtailed and is now dipping into recession. The China of today is far different from China even a year ago.

Secondly, relations between Turkey and the US were very strong a couple of decades ago, but in the last decade, this has gone down rapidly. I would suggest you read up on this before posting rubbish.

SM, reading your post people could be fooled into believing you know what you are talking about. SK and Taiwan were built on massive US capital. SK people are now the most overworked in the developed world all to keep the SK economy afloat. JAPAN has the Worlds largest debt ratio by far, China is not in the top 10. The private debt of Evergrade property developer in China is $400m, the US national debt is $26 trillion the largest in the world. Sure China has suffered a downturn due to Covid, but have managed the pandemic far better than most other countries including the US.

Look at the Liberal debt in Australia, $1 trillion, and won't be repaid for at least 60 years.

Paul,

Reading your posts no one is led to believe that you know what you are talking about. Most of your comments are vastly out of date.

China's federal debt is about US$13T the public debts from the states incl state-owned businesses is about a further US$40T and corporate debt is about US$27T. This makes China hugely indebted if not the most indebted country in the world. (all of this is not including the debt of individuals.)

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3135883/china-debt-has-it-changed-2021-and-how-big-it-now

https://warontherocks.com/2021/12/could-chinas-massive-public-debt-torpedo-the-global-economy/

As for funding, most US funding was military to protect SK and Taiwan against China. China has received vast amounts of foreign investment.

The reality is that the US is past history.....simply because it's use by date has arrived, courtesy of ignorance and arrogance.

Is this news when many citizens of the same nations have known this forever?

Turkey based on Ataturk's dictatorship of national socialism which was popular in the region, then Erdogan, and China as we know it founded by Mao and the Party over Chiang Kai Shek's KMT who was not too different.

Meanwhile this averts people's gaze from white Christian nationalist regimes run by autocrats e.g. Russia, Hungary, Poland etc. based on ageing demographics and xenophobia. Likewise, now both the UK and US are subjected to threats to sovereignty, democracy, lack of transparency, socialism for global/large public corporate entities (via Koch think tanks), climate science denial, extremist immigration policies, public sector cuts and flagging economies; based upon radical right libertarian and eugenics inspired ideology.

Andras Smith,

You talk complete bollocks, Ataturk was not a national socialist in fact he abolished the Sultanate and the Caliphate and introduced secular democracy giving women equal rights.

Nothing like a bit of glib one liner abuse in lieu of any knowledge or understanding in a discussion; no surprise most right wing protagonists have strong beliefs, narcissistic personality disorder, anyone?

Ataturk, admired by both Mussolini and especially Hitler, made a simple policy mistake in not ensuring that Sunni Islam could be restrained and not used politically; you would know why and how?

He was obviously busy rebuilding a nation using socialist principles or state capitalism (same thing), sometimes well 'refreshed' but in his quest for secularism, a very secular religion was thrown under the bus, and has not recovered, i.e. Alevism (while Sunni Islam was nationalised for control but used again under Erdogan for permanence).

Estimated that Alevi are 30-40% of the Turkish population, including many in Ataturk's old party the CHP, while Alevi is officially described as 'Shia', it is in fact influenced by Sufism and Persian philosophers or poets e.g. Rumi, and also Zoriastrians of Persia (like Parsis in India i.e. fire worshipping); they worship in community centres with no gender division, no headscarves and like Ataturk they can drink.

Turkey to this day shows clear signs of national socialism with far right groups (MHP's 'Grey Wolves' etc.), like Oz compliant right wing media oligopoly, compulsory military service ('crowded army'), significant state industries/monopolies, complex of police & security services, youth/working age brain drain, decline in women's rights, slide from democracy to autocracy, and now a basket case economy.

This is what conservative libertarian governments bring, socialism for the top end, decline and autocracy for the rest, while some do the bidding of power, is that you shadow minister?

Andras,

You said "Turkey, based on Ataturk's dictatorship of national socialism"

When the state that Ataturk established was a secular democracy. Either you lied or you simply shot your mouth off in ignorance.

That Erdogan is trying to reverse much of this is the problem with Turkey today and only a fwit would try and suggest that I supported Erdogan.

It was not a 'secular democracy', it was one party rule dictated by Ataturk, with nationalised Islam and recognised by the Soviets first; his party the CHP ruled till end of WWII for 22 years, and was not till 1950, five years later, that the Democratic Party won power, another party for the first time.

'When the state that Ataturk established was a secular democracy. Either you lied or you simply shot your mouth off in ignorance.'

Do you understand defamation laws in Australia e.g. calling people 'liars' etc. to test 'freedom of speech' or are you simply suffering from narcissistic personality disorder and/or Dunning Kruger effect?

Quite common these days amongst nativist conservative libertarians in the Anglosphere aka Brexit and Trump, while Hungary etc. also develop the same i.e. 'collective narcissism' to develop 'pensioner populism'.

Defamation. What rot! Dunning Kruger Effect. You had never heard of it until you were accused of suffering from it.

ttbn, why do you attack others for what they post, when it does not concern you. Being some kind of self appionted forum arbitrator.

Sorry. Paul. I didn't realise that you were the only poster entitled to 'attack' other posters, as you have just done to me. You and the battle axe, plus SteeleHead are always stalking other posters over things that are nothing to do with you. Hypocrites, the three of you. Anyone with an opinion you three don't like gets a serve. Sickening!

Talking about what 'doesn’t concern' me, you, or anyone else, in what way does what the leaders of China and Turkey do in their own countries concern us? Who cares? Australians should pull their heads out of the sand and concern themselves with their their own leaders who have shown recently that they have the potential to become dictators too. Australians have shown themselves to be prime candidates for serfdom; and carrying on about Turks, Chinese and Donald Trump only hides the fact. Australians don't take enough interest in their own problems. They make no attempt to do anything about their own politicians, but presume to pontificate, anonymously and uselessly, about foreign politicians.

Andras,

To quote from Wikipedia: (there are also other sources that say the same)

"The elements of the political system visioned by Atatürk's Reforms developed in stages, but by 1935, when the last part of the Atatürk's Reforms removed the reference to Islam in the Constitution; Turkey became a secular (2.1) and democratic (2.1), republic (1.1) that derives its sovereignty (6.1) from the people."

Thus you were utterly wrong and my statement that: "Either you lied or you simply shot your mouth off in ignorance." Stands.

You may freely take whatever offence you desire but the truth trumps your blustering accusation of defamation. And yes I do understand defamation laws.

ttbn I am ttbn towards you, a kind of New Years resolution I could have said; "YOU should be an expert on TURKEY being a big enough one yourself" but that would be unkind so I won't say it. Not to offend your sensibilities I'll simply ask; "How are your Geraniums this year? Doing well I hope." Can't be nicer than that.

Paul,

I could say that you are an expert on paedophiles given the paedos in the Green party, but that would be unkind so I won't say it. So not to offend your delicate sensibilities, how are the chickens in your garden. Can't be nicer than that.

"Beijing’s crackdown on billionaires, the fintech and social media sectors, the private education sector, ride-sharing and even entertainment created fear and uncertainty and wiped out billions, if not trillions, of value and wealth. Externally, the trade and geopolitical tensions between the US and China began spreading elsewhere."

"December saw two major defaults among China's debt-laden developers with both Evergrande and Kaisa missing bond repayments totalling nearly $500m (£369.47m) between them. The plight of the property sector is now taking its toll on regional government finances though, with the Financial Times reporting local officials are increasingly searching for new ways to bring in revenue, including forcing local businesses to buy equipment from government-designated suppliers. In the city of Shaoyang, in Hunan province, local officials have been auctioning off Evergrande projects in a bid to raise money. One official there told the FT: "Neither the government nor Evergrande has money... Someone else needs to fill the vacuum."

A downward spiral.

SM, please don't mention the CHICKENS, they destroyed my GERANIUMS! It offends my sensibilities. Talk of chickens and geraniums offends forum moderator TTBN as well.

Just out of the deep freeze with Covid, sorry Wuhan Virus just to keep on topic, so it's Chinese tonight from the Golden Dragon, best around here. Chef Xi don't do Turkey, but does very nice Peking Duck.

Mr. abusive, shouty and unhinged narcissist acting as shadowminister whose hubris precludes any understanding, hence, the bad knock off of Sky News AD for losers? No wonder Australia gets such negative perceptions from outside...... seriously, how will the LNP hold government in future with those like you desperate to become mini Trumps..... or hero worshippers; unless I guess many snowflakes like yourself prefer dictatorship to protect you?

Wiki states the formal system, but anyone with knowledge, understanding and experience of Turkey, most of all educated Turks et al., would laugh at claims of Ataturk promoting real social democracy via the 'legislature' aka Erdogan (and nowadays the GOP, LNP, Tories, Orban, Putin et al.). Just like there is no corruption because it's against the law...

Especially when Ataturk was reliant upon overarching control of democratic institutions, military, education, religion and media censorship while pluralistic and/or liberal democracy was bypassed while creating a cult of personality round himself; the terms fascist and dictator are descriptors used or heard (even within the Ataturk Enstitusu, you of course would know which university that resides with?).

Nor was Turkey ever really secular, and overbearing state structures left behind by Ataturk et al. allowed the military to continue its dominance of a 'managed democracy' (still described as a glass half empty and/or full). Exemplified in the first post General's (yet another) coup for 'democratic' government, with the first civilian President, General Kenan Evren whose first public words were 'allahu akbar' (that's Muslim).

Does not suggest strong secular or liberal democracy but like the 'Anglosphere', incompetent conservative nativist libertarians joined at the hip with autocracy, religion, ageing electorates and clearly dementia; by the way have you had a check, as anger is a clear symptom of confusion and frustration, is that dementia?

Andras,

You are a noisy abusive pinhead and a hypocrite to boot.

Secondly, considering that your "opinion" goes against every article and historical record I can find perhaps you can back your laughable ideas with some actual references?

Next, you should look up the meaning of secular government as clearly, your interpretation is deluded.

"China has spent billions of dollars in recent years trying to catch up to the world’s most advanced semiconductor makers.

Two foundry projects, led in part by a little-known entrepreneur then in his 30s, help show why China has yet to succeed.

The projects, in the Chinese cities of Wuhan and Jinan, were supposed to churn out semiconductors nearly as complex as the more-sophisticated chips made by industry leaders Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing and Samsung Electronics, which have decades of chip-building experience.

Chinese officials kicked in hundreds of millions of dollars to support the upstarts. But it quickly became clear the plans had been too ambitious, and local officials had underestimated how difficult – and costly – it is to make complex high-end chips.

The two foundries, Wuhan Hongxin Semiconductor Manufacturing and Quanxin Integrated Circuit Manufacturing (Jinan) burned through cash, yet never commercially built any chips."

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/15/economy/china-omicron-economy-intl-hnk/index.html

(CNN Business)China's economy is still struggling with real estate woes and fallout from sporadic Covid-19 lockdowns. Throw the global spread of the Omicron variant into the mix and it could be looking at a sharp slowdown next year.

Government data released Wednesday showed trouble spots for the world's second-largest economy in November. Residential housing prices fell for a third consecutive month, a sign that an ongoing property crisis continues to deepen. Retail sales also struggled, suggesting that coronavirus outbreaks and the government's "zero-Covid" approach of locking down areas where the virus flares up are taking their toll on the economy.
Analysts say that these problems aren't going away, as new outbreaks force companies to close factories in key manufacturing regions.
China pumps $188 billion into the economy to counter the real estate slump

"A new Covid outbreak in Zhejiang is again triggering local restrictions and factory shutdowns, while troubles in the property sector are likely to hold back property construction for some time," analysts from Capital Economics wrote in a Wednesday note.
Government efforts to ease policies and help the economy "will only cushion the resulting slowdown," they added.
After emerging from 2020 as the only major economy to record growth, China this year has been dealing with a lot of threats to continued expansion. An energy shortage hobbled industrial output for much of this year as the country struggled to balance its need for electricity with efforts to tackle the climate crisis."

Shonky,

Is this your personal "Bash China" page. I'd ask Josh Friedbrain if the Omicron virus was having any effect on the Australian economy, but poor Josh is sick in bed with the bug.

Pauliar,

The weaknesses in the Chinese economy have been apparent for nearly a decade yet this hasn't stopped economically retarded left whingers in the Gangreen and Labor parties from crowing about how fantastically well China was doing compared to the US , how China would soon be the dominant world power and we should swap our allegences.

However, after decades of pouring $Ts of borrowed money into the economy the music has stopped. Hundreds of millions are becoming unemployed with no social security or medical services, Banks have $Ts in outstanding loans that are never going to be repaid, and home owners are facing huge mortgages against properties whose values are collapsing.

30 years ago Japan went through a similar process and has yet to recover. So China is likely to struggle for a few decades before it gets on its feet again by which time its population will have aged and productivity will drop.

China is unlikely to seriously challenge the US before the late 21st century.

Shonky,

If as you say there is going to be this almighty collapse in the Chinese economy, where will that put Australia. The Morrison government with its trillion dollar debt, and nothing to show for it, its total reliance on the Chinese economy for the good of the Australian economy, where will Australia be when this happens?

Pauliar,

Firstly, you are the only one on this tread to use the word collapse.

Secondly, thanks for admitting that labor and the gangreens wouldn't pay people to stay at home during covid.

Finally, iron ore prices will drop, but only an idiot would think that Aus is totally reliant on China.

Shonky,

You seem to make stuff up as you go. Show proof of 300,000,000 underemployed in China, along with all your other claims. I assume you still read far right trash on the internet and take it as fact.

Pauliar,

Given that you don't supply links and just about everything you post is either wildly out of date or just wrong, calling for me to prove my information is wildly hypocritical of you.

The quotes I have supplied are from news agencies such as the financial times and CNN. The figure of nearly 300m under or unemployed is estimated by these bodies based on layoffs and downsizing by companies and industries as official figures in China are opaque at best.

If you have better figures or information feel free to share it. However, given your gross ignorance of economics I doubt you would understand it.

Shonky,

Your thread, your claims, where is the proof. You are well known for being wrong. Aka, millions for Cry Baby Porter, an arrest in the Beat Up Bolt case, claims you made which were WRONG! Can't take your word for anything.

Pauliar,

I see that you are lying about my previous quotes. Perhaps you are too stupid to understand them.

Perhaps you can tell me what unemployment/underemployment in China is?

Is it 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m?

Work it out then come back without being a complete twat.

Under Communism China has full employment. One of the great benefits of their socialists system. Like social security which you claimed China didn't have, when in fact workers in the worker paradise they enjoy a state run system of insurance, unlike Capatalist India next door where millions beg in the streets!

As I suspected your info is from lying American trash, which makes things up without evidence, just like you.

Pauliar,

I see that you are off your meds. Even the CCP admits that there is unemployment in China and claims it to be about 4% (or about 40 million people). Even this number with no unemployment benefits, is a tragedy. The reality is that many qualified people are now delivering food etc to prevent from starving. Australia is far more socialist than China.

I don't know where you dig up your rubbish or whether you as usual are just making up the bollocks you post.

shonkyminister,

Lying through your teeth again, where is your evidence that the CCP admitted unemployment was 4% in China. YOU MADE IT UP! Stop reading far right trash, and get the real facts. You make all these lying claims about China, yet provide no evidence, you are a joke. As I said its your Thread with your "Facts" but no evidence.

Pauliar,

You disgusting lying piece of crap, here is the latest evidence of and statistics from China of the "registered" unemployed not close to the underemployed.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/226141/unemployment-rate-in-china-by-quarter/

"Quarterly unemployment rate in China Q3 2016-Q3 2021
Published by C. Textor, Nov 1, 2021
The graph shows the quarterly registered unemployment rate in urban regions of China from the third quarter of 2016 to the third quarter of 2021. During the third quarter of 2021, around 3.88 percent of the Chinese urban labor force had been unemployed. The monthly surveyed unemployment rate of urban areas in China, which is normally higher than the registered unemployment rate, ranged at 4.9 percent in September 2021. It did not indicate a lasting effect of the coronavirus pandemic on unemployment rates in China."

Pauliar,

Now you have to eat a huge pile of crow when you could have simply looked up the statistics. Next time try this before making yourself look like an ignorant twat.

China's unemployment compares more than favorably with the West. Full employment is not reached at zero percent unemployed, as there is always an allowence of 2% for shifts in employment. The use of "urban" unemployment figures and not national figures like in the US is designed to inflate the actual numbers.

China's economy and people has done extremely well during Covid, due to a robust health and economic response from government. Unlike the United States where your folk hero Dangerous Doctor Donald, killed a million citizens, and threw millions more on the scrap heap.

Pauliar,

Thanks for admitting that you were lying through your teeth claiming that there was 0% unemployment in China.

With the collapse of the property market, things have turned much worse in China with millions being laid off in either the direct construction market or in the much larger network of suppliers. What hasn't helped is Xi's crackdown on the tech, film and training organisations.

The $bns flowing from the property market used to support state and federal governments and have now vanished to the point where previously safe government jobs are being slashed or pay reduced.

I can go on, but just look yourself.

"The closure of Hong Kong’s last two dissident media voices affirms the importance of the decision by major democracies, including Australia, to observe a diplomatic boycott of the Winter Olympics in Beijing next month. The Chinese Communist Party’s unrelenting assault on press freedom and free thought was clear in last week’s snuffing out of the Stand News website and Sunday’s closure of Citizen News. Stand News was Hong Kong’s most influential pro-democracy news site following the closure of Jimmy Lai’s Apple Daily last June.

In September last year, prominent pro-Beijing Hong Kong politician Regina Ip trumpeted the continued existence of Stand News as showing “freedom of expression is still alive and well” in the territory. She little understood the malice of the regime; 200 armed police stormed Stand News’s offices last week, arresting seven staff. The site was charged with sedition and “inciting hatred against the Hong Kong government”.

The raid also sounded the death knell for Citizen News which, in a Facebook post on Sunday, announced it was shutting down. “We have always loved this land, but at present, we are helpless as we are not only facing wind and rain but tornadoes and huge waves,” it told readers. In a final jab at Beijing, Stand News published a list of 50 independent media organisations that had been forced to shut in Hong Kong in the past year. Nothing better sums up the communist assault on the institutions that made Hong Kong Asia’s globally admired media hub.

While the plight of China’s Uighurs was the initial motivator for the diplomatic boycott of the Winter Olympics, outrages committed in Hong Kong also should be a factor. Watching the Games without taking a stand over Beijing’s destruction of basic freedoms would have been unconscionable. More countries should join the boycott."

shonky,

You fail to produce any official government figures, but instead rely on speculation from organisation's within Capatilist America. I may not agree with the Chinese form of government, other than to say, "it works for them", but I do give them credit for their economic achievements in recent years. We in Australia have benefited greatly from the rise of the Chinese economy.

Pauliar,

Stop being such an ignorant moron. The website collects official and other statistics from more than 150 countries. There is no speculation here. If you are so small-minded to reject anything from the US then you are beyond redemption.

If you want CCP websites go and find them yourself but I hope you can read Chinese.

Pauliar,

Secondly, how can you say that "it works for them" when there is no vote to validate it. It clears doesn't work for them in Hong Kong nor does it for the Uighurs.

The massive lockdowns of many 10s of millions to try and combat the omicron virus are creating misery and devastating the economy.

shonky, America has a vested interest in denigrating China. They use the CIA to produce all the false infomation you then regurgitate.

In that last post you were confusing China with India.

Pauliar,

Normally this level of paranoia requires a straitjacket. This is a business website that people pay for sound financial information and would bankrupt if it produced propaganda.

Nope, not talking about India only China. You are sounding more mentally unbalanced every post.

Agree shonky, your Chinese paranoia knows no bounds, yes a straightjacket for you is in order. Whatever you say, I'll go along with.

Pauliar,

I can certainly fit you out for a straitjacket. It has a muzzle that will stop you from biting but not lying.

The latest news is that the Largest property developer in China Country Gardens (Evergrande was No2) is in serious financial trouble and will likely default on its bonds after its latest bond issue to raise cash to pay due bonds has failed.

CG has 250 000 direct employees and 5m contractors and like other developers owes 100s of $bn to Chinese banks and other lenders.