Particularly, don’t forget those in the south of the state (NSW), who’s crops are again failing. This is the 5th year in a row for some, a completely unprecedented situation. Many who have sought help are on anti-depressants to help cope, particularly with the anxiety that comes from watching yet another warm cloudless day roll in. Some crops can hold on for another couple of weeks, some are already dead (particularly those who have been trying to do the right thing by rotation – canola has been the first to suffer).

We are facing another year of more stock being destroyed because the abbatoirs will be full to capacity, yet prices in our supermarkets will stay up. Meanwhile the stock will be returned from sale – deemed no commercial value.

Many more farmers will suffer in silence, not seeking the help that they need, leaning instead on family members who themselves are overburdened with the stress of seeing your life’s investment slowly wilt in the heat. The average age of farmers is 57 – too old to be considered employable by most businesses. Some of the younger generation will cope, particularly those that can relocate to take advantage of the resources boom. Even those will be hard hit by being removed from their family and community support structures. Despite being able to earn a living, they will have to live with the grief that comes from being the first (often in 4 or 5 generations) to fail.

They need your empathy and support now more than ever.

Please tell us the best things we an do to help the situation and we will endeavour to do so.
These are hard-working people who deserve a better break.

There are many ways tht help can be provided. Most however will require government intervention. Let me explain:

1. Irrigators in the Murray/MIA areas are required to pay for their water rights whether or not the water is there to be delivered. This is a resounding blow to the bottomline when there is little or no income.

2. Likewise the Federal Govt could subsidise land rates to local councils and the RLPB - perhaps restrict to those that qualify for the interest rate subsidy, as criterium have already been met (saves the cost of new assessments)

3. Free up restrictions on accessing Centrelink serives, such as the Professional Advice and training Grant (up to $5500) and the assistance grant for leaving the industry. The Advice grant gets up my nose, as it oculd potentially be used for so many things, but is basically restricted to paying agronomists and farm consultants for a "drought management plan", which will do nothing but sit on a shelf and collect dust. It should be available for both financial and farming advice - one thing that many farmers are seeking to do at the present is reorganise finances and seek the lowest possible interest rates, and they cant afford to pay their accountant to help them put together solid proposals to financiers. Result - they dont get what they need. The grant for existing the indsutry is $50,000, but you can only get it if you cant access any further commericial financial assistance - ie you have to be destitute. Better that its provided to farmers who will be able to exit with some equity still left, so that the $50,000 helps to support them while setting up a new life, and their leftover equity helps to buy a house in town/city from which to base themselves.

4. Grants to help pay for wasted fertiliser. When I say wasted, I mean because the crop has died. Fertiliser is prohibitively expensive and a major cost in crop production. Providing a grant next year to cover the cost of wasted fertiliser in this season will at least go someway towards helping with the cost of going around again, and the cost to the government is not too difficult to estimate (an important point in seeking assistance).

Most of all, help re-raise the profile of these people in the media. Their plight has fallen by the wayside in light of the election and floods in other areas of the country.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about ways of kickstarting rural recovery but why are the politicians making it so hard for them?
The average Aussie guy on the street, I would bet anything would want to help if he knew how.

Country Gal,

Good points, especially about farmers being forced to pay for water that isn't there.

I have a thought and I would like to put it out there for comment. In areas that are suffering long term drought, where there is little short to mid term prospects for decent crop production, would there be a place for paying farmers to maintain the land. Rather that trying to till unproductive soil the government could institute a programme to pay the farmers to improve the land as much as can be done given the circumstances.

Again its just a thought, but it would help to keep farming families on their land, while at the same time ensuring that in the future when circumstances change the land can once again be productive.

As a country business owner, I have great sympathy for the points that CG makes. However, with respect to water, land and agriculture I think it's past time that we take a very hard look at whether or not certain types of agriculture will ever be sustainable in parts of the country where they currently barely survive.

Yes, it will be difficult for many to walk off the family farm, but the fact is that there was a demographic trend in this direction even before the current water crisis. While I certainly feel for the poor bastards who try against all odds to survive against drought, poor soils and rapacious transnational agribusiness, perhaps the time has come for us to get real about the true prospects for agriculture in unsustainable parts of the country.

Goddess, I guess I am not really looking at kickstarting a rural recovery at this point, just short-term survival! Certainly longer-term solutions need to be looked, but if we dont do something drastic, we are looking at not only losing large numbers of farmers in the worst affected areas, but also the death of country towns. The flow-on effect is starting to become very heavy for a large number of country busines owners (and ultimately their employees).

CJ, I know where you are coming from. We need a reassessment of the capability of some areas in light of this drought, which has rewritten the history books. One of the issues that is going to come out of this is how to help those farmers whose land values are likely to fall (some significantly) once a revaluation of the lands capacity is made.

James, perhaps as part of the re-evaluation of land use, we could look at the potential for carbon-capture by the soil, or planting drought-tolerant shrubs/trees to assist in carbon-capture, then remunerate farmers for looking after these carbon sinks (eventually this can become a part of a carbon-trading scheme, but might need support in its early days). The other alternative is more along the lines of what you have suggested, and remunerate farmers for conservation of the land. Again, there will be an issue of ensuring that remuneration is enough to survive on, but not so much as to artificially inflate land values. Europe appears to have gone down this path, and recognises that farmers can contribute more than just production, that the community as a whole benefits from their custodianship of the land.

We need to come up with some creative solutions to the issue, both to solve the deepening short-term crisis, and to address the issues that this has raised in the long-term.

Hi Country Gal,

I had a few questions about the water rights/allocation issue.

Who do farmers buy water rights/allocations from?
What exactly are they buying?
Is it a contract for the supply of water?
Have farmers considered legal avenues to reclaim their money for unused/unavailable water?

Thanks

Hi Tristan,

Hope I address all your questions....note these are in relation to NSW - am not 100% on the other states

1. Water is bought from State Water (responsible for delivery and maintenance of systems). Often through a bulk intermediary such as Murray Irrigation.

2. There are two components to water costs - entitlement charge (designed to cover the cost of infrastructure) and usage charge (designed to cover the cost of delivery.

3. Its an entitlement to a certain amount of water based on full availability, and access to less water if overall allocations are cut (eg due to drought)

4. Not sure, I imagine there are some that have considered this option, but cost would be a limiting factor. Not sure of the legal entitlements under the supply agreement either. These could potentially vary between valleys (ie river systems)

If you look at the stats on the State Water website and the IPART website (that set the prices for the next 4 years from 1/10/06), the following interesting information comes out:
- State water delivers 14000Gl pa, 5000GL to bulk users (irrigators) and 9000GL to the environment. So irrigators get 35% of water flows. I am not sure whether town water supplies are included in this.
- Environmental compliance costs are borne 50% each by users and government (despite the fact that the environment gets 65% of the water, so I argue that the government (people) should be paying for this.
- Fixed charges (entitlement charges) comprise 70% of cost initially, 50% in 06/07 and 40% from 08/09 - so we are moving in a good direction as far as not paying for something that you dont get.

Country_Gal

I knew why I had that thought, there was/is a pilot programme out west doing exactly what we are discussing.

This is the first article I could find out about it:

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s1734603.htm

An interesting read James. I must have missed that Landline. I've lived out in the country they are talking about.

Some other issues flow from this:
1. $10,000 is not enough to live off, but it does contribute towards the cost of conservation. There needs to be some decisions made about what is conservation and what the community is willing to pay for. So long as farmers can make a living from balancing conservation and production, the idea may work.

2. Destocking is not always the best solution. Anyone who had seen the masses of kangaroos descend on destocked paddocks out in that western district in 2002 would know that simply destocking is not going to preserve your groundcover. IN addition to that, if you completely destock, rather than retain and feed your breeding stock, then you risk a number of things. (a) introducing weeds and diseases onto your property (not such an issue if you regularly buy stock, but if you produce your own lines then you are taking a big risk), and (b) degrading of quality of stock - you can only buy in someone else's culls.

I found the comments about ripping claypans interesting - that has the potential to cause wind erosion if you dont get the timing just right. My family tackled the many claypans on their property (that had been there since at least 1898 when purchased) by a gradual process of tipping the tails from lamb-marking onto the pans. The decomposing tails caught seed and gave it a chance to strike. Not a pretty solution (and not one you want too close to your house - the smell aint great), but avoids the risk of erosion and gives you a use for the by-product. Dad wont rip rabbit warrens for the same reason and sticks to fumigating instead.

Country_Gal,

I've had some experience with crotching sheep and de-nutting goats so I have an idea of the smell :). Well that and standing up wind of one of the most foul smelling and foul tempered billy goats in the world.

The idea does bear further investigation though. Its programmes like this, which if fine tuned and expanded can really prove to be a boon to both the environment and the farming families.

James, its got the potential to be a win-win - I'll keep a very interested eye on the program.

tristan, I got hit before with posting limits, so didnt get to finish off what else I wanted to say on the water issue, so here 'tis:

Given that cost recovery is seen as important (and I dont disagree), this is the arguement for the annual fixed charge. I dont even necessarily have a problem with this in a normal cycle (eg if there are allocation cuts for 1 year due to dry weather, then its not too bad), but in exceptional circumstances like we currently have, this is where it really hurts farmers. Perhaps a compromise is when there is a singificant cut in allocation over an extended period of time, then the fixed costs can be deferred until normal delivery starts again and built into the usage charge. At least then farmers would only be paying for it if they were able to grow something to make money off.

The State Water website is: www.statewater.com.au, and it has links to the IPART website. Note too that the annual costs have been set for the next 4 years to increase by CPI + 5.8% per year - but farmers arent likely to get that sort of increase in general return = more shrinking margins

Sorry if its a little disjointed due to flowing on from earlier posts!

Country_Gal

I'm looking for ideas on Rural policy and I wouldn't mind hearing more of what you have to say.

If you could drop me an email to address on this page:

http://jamespurser.com.au/TalkToMe

That would be great.

James Purser: "Well that and standing up wind of one of the most foul smelling and foul tempered billy goats in the world."

Just as well you weren't standing downwind of him! :P

heh,

It didn't matter which direction you stood, you still got enveloped in that cloud.

Lets all keep in mind our primary producers come election time.
I am fed up with dole bludgers and non-workers getting away with this crap.
In a so-called civilised world we all have to earn our place.
I am so sick of copping a tax bill to subsidise this scum.
How many of us have the opportunity to rort the system by being able to work but choosing not to do anything but watch oprah and get pissed while making us tax-payers miserable by being rats on a treadmill so those who choose the indignity of bludgerism superior.
I thank god I live in a country where people are still willing to farm despite the garbage that is chucked in their faces.

if crops fail 5 years in a row, isn't that nature's way of saying "get off this land, you silly fool, cuz you don't know how to use it?"

if the rivers run dry, doesn't that mean irrigators are over using?

there are many examples of agribusiness being greedy, toward the land, and from society when the land doesn't doesn't meet their targets. well, climate is changing, this particular lurk is drying up.

demos
Yes thats true and likewise as country girl has pointed out there are many examples of unfair conditions for the smaller struggling farmer too.
Dont you get it? The farmers are the food bowl of this country.
They keep your family fed. They carry a ungrateful nation.
They get screwed left right and center then done over by their country being flooded with cheap importants.
Start putting the blame where it really belongs- The Australian Government.
Of course they should NOT pay for water they dont get.

Goddess- We support your stand on leaving the work to about one third of the nation.
Your correct. I am not sure however which political party we would look at to give farmers a fair go.
Certainly NOT the Nationals and labour seem to be unable to think outsie the square they live in.
Countrygirl We have watched your thread and read your comments without invloving ourselves.
We are impressed and we have some people looking to establish some new ideas into Australian Farming.
Do you have a web site or email address they could contact you on.?

Well done Countrygirl!

Firstly,I will endeavour to contact those that have requested it.Thank you for your comments.

DEMOS,I understand your view, but think that it is too simplistic.This is a drought that is out of the ordinary, particularly for the farmers and townspeople of southern NSW.Exceptional Circumstances support kicks in only once we experience a 1 in 25 year drought– its not just given away.This area started to receive EC support 4 years ago (so I was originally mistaken– they’ve been in severe drought for 6 years now),which should demonstrate the severity and unusualness of the situation.

I don’t take issue with those farmers who fail simply because they fail to plan for the fluctuations of their business.Coming from a decent start,most farmers should have no trouble in handling two bad years in a row.They will then need a run of sufficiently good seasons/prices to get them back to their starting point,but these sort of fluctuations are normal and can be prepared for.If you don’t prepare for the inevitable,then tough.I don’t see the need for society to support bad business.

When things get very hard though,is when the season starts out looking reasonable (if not great).You then have to spend a significant amount of money to sow,fertilise and spray (usually broadacre knockdown with sowing,but if things look ok for long enough,then you may have to fork out for expensive selective herbicides as well).Much of the annual cost falls into a small window of time,and unfortunately is no guarantee that the rain will continue.A few lucky areas of NSW (I cant comment as well on the rest of the country) are blessed with heavy black soils,which while prone to compaction,can if they have enough rain during fallow,hold enough moisture to see a crop through without an incrop rain (so long as the weather isn’t too warm or wind too harsh).Most aren’t though,and do require reasonable rain within the growing season.The problem is that you can spend most of your money and have the crop looking good,then lose it towards the end.That’s what really hurts,particularly when it happens several years in a row.

"I am fed up with dole bludgers and non-workers getting away with this crap."
"In a so-called civilised world we all have to earn our place.
I am so sick of copping a tax bill to subsidise this scum."

My, my Goddess! You are emotional today aren't you :-)

Whilst I fully agree that there are people who don't make much effort to look for work and should be leaned on by the powers that be, I believe you've fallen into the trap of thinking there is a job for everybody, no matter their circumstances.
Don't think for a moment that ageism isn't rampant. Employers demand young people when they can get them. Don't think sexism doesn't exist, especially when coupled to age. What's an inexperienced 50 year old woman going to do in the current economic situation when she doesn't have a degree in IT or sales? What if her looks are shot and she doesn't have the finances to do anything about it? The same goes for middle aged men.

And it's not all about age either. Some time ago, I cared for a young woman who was bright and intelligent until she lost her job. Centerlink forced her to jump through the various hoops in order for her to pick up a grossly unsupportive income of under $200 a week. Eventually, she was offered a job with the RSPCA. Being fondly passionate about animals, she couldn't handle working with dogs and cats whose only outlook was to be put down at the end of the week. It so traumatised her that she quit and was promptly breached by Centerlink. A tenant contractor found her by accident in her appartment, no electricity, no phone, no gas. She'd cut herself and was severely dehydrated.

Goddess, does this person sound like a bludger? Scum? I take great exception to someone speaking about people that way without having first hand knowledge of those people's situations first hand. My bet is that you're not a social worker or carer. If you are, then you're burned out and should quit immediately.

Aime,
I did not mean to generalise about social security.
The system is in place for the very people about whom you speak and your case probably deserved a better go than she got.
I am talking about professional dole bludgers not honest people.
Your views on ageism are very real out there and are the reason I am self employed.
One case I knew about got pregnant to get the dole while living with the kid's father who was fully employed.
When centrelink caught her out she suddenly developed debilitating back pain (not)
I get cranky because I work so hard and pay so many tax dollars so people like this can get away with rorting the system.

Well I'm farming, and last year was a real wake up for me.
How different people handled a similar situation, was quite
amazing to observe.

I really don't think that throwing ever more fertiliser
subsidies etc at farmers, is the solution.

There is lots of really innovative stuff happening in farming,
including ways to deal with drought. But alot of farmers are
old timers, wanting to do things as they have for 50 years.
They ignore that the world is changing, at their peril.
Sorry, but thats the reality of it. If they have had 5 failed
crops, its well overdue that they looked at new farming models.

IMHO alot of farmland will be bought by super funds, then leased
back to farmers. Thats not a bad thing, it gives younger,
dynamic farmers with new ideas a chance to have a go, not just
older, set in their ways types, who happen to own alot of land.

Govts could do heaps, but not in terms of subsidies. Make it
easier for meatworks to import seasonal labour, as Aussies
don't want the jobs, for instance. Meatworks will be seasonal
as long as we have seasonal climate, thats the reality.

Meantime, those farmers who are too old to change their ways,
well its time they put up their feet and went fishing :)

Yabby
Yes thats true regarding meat works. In the old days the crew would travel through Australia and then over to Nz and return in time to start the busy season back in Australia all over again.

However we are sending far more meat overseas now.
We have enough work to go around the clock and then some.

There are many new methods with crops that need to be taken a bit more on board by some of the farmers I agree.

However those involved in stock have a wealth of knowledge and should be teaching their skills while we are still lucky enough to have them.

All our meat should be leaving the country in a box so we keep the jobs in Australia.
WE need to be establishing free range farms for all sorts of products not just beef and cattle throughout the regional areas.

It could be established through a franchise for want of a better term with education annd experienced stock men such as those wise old farmers who should be well paid.

Heaps of small free range piggeries and poultry farms to provide the people moving into regional areas with an alternative income.

Plenty of cruelty free disease free meat. How else are these people going to support themselves and their familes.

With the rate people are leaving the city and moving to regional areas if we dont do something the majority of Australia will end up on centerlink.

We need now more than ever to start programes to give farmers more outlets at better prices to sell their stock and this can only bedone by re establishing our abattoirs in regional areas to get the country towns going again.

Yes we need to be able to bring in trained meat workers thats for sure.

As for saying Aussies dont want work in abattoirs its true not everybody wants to be on the kill floor because its not nice and hard work.
However many will want work as a plumer electrian packer driver corner store operator cleaner etc
Abattoirs create all those jobs.

"All our meat should be leaving the country in a box so we keep the jobs in Australia."

Pale, if Aussies don't want the jobs, then they cannot be forced
to take them. Fact is that Aussies have it so good, that they
can pick and choose not to do certain jobs. Working in the
meat industry seems to be one of them.

Fact is, that if there is drought, you need extra staff to cope,
or animals will die in the paddocks. That kind of flexibility in
the meat industry labour situation, would solve a great deal of
problems regarding drought, subsidies etc. If farmers wait until
the condition of their stock is poor, even meatworks won't want
them, only a bullet will put them out of their misery, so its
a lose lose situation.

You can talk about all this value adding of skins etc, fact is
nearly all of them are sent to China for processing now. Our
costs here are simply not competitive and workers don't want those
kinds of jobs anymore.

Last week the price of lambs in the ES dropped 20$, due to no
rain. Processors pointed out that they were a business, not
a charity, so if they can get away with paying less, they will.

Luckily the live trade is there to underpin the market to some
degree and keep them honest! Take that away and farmers would
be slaughtered in the marketplace by greedy processors.

Yabbs Said
Pale, if Aussies don't want the jobs, then they cannot be forced
to take them.

PALE REPLIES
Oh so now the defense is Aussies are lazy.
While I [in part agree] that’s where our Countries Leaders Come in isn’t It.
Not all jobs are on kill room floors. If you’re offered a job in a plant and refuse to work you should NOT get Centrelink!

YABBY SAID
Fact is, that if there is drought, you need extra staff to cope,
or animals will die in the paddocks.

PALE REPLIES

Oh for Goodness sake Yabby how do you think our fathers and Grandfather survived?

It’s called Management and good farming and stockmen/
.
YABBY SAID
fact is
nearly all of them are sent to China for processing now

PALE REPLIES
Oh My God Can You Hear Yourself? How Clever is that for Australia? We send our jobs off and rely on IMPORTS!
Can you see what’s going to happen to Australia? Ever heard of the word SANCTION YABBY?
They call this the clever country. Nothing clever about:’ relying” on imports.
No "real" Aussie agrees with us running the country like this. Oh Yeh Sure some of the farmers have been left with no where else to go because of the Governments miss management the poor buggers have been backed into a corner. Unlike some I don’t blame the Farmers. I Blame the Government!

Yabby said
Last week the price of lambs in the ES dropped 20$, due to no
rain

PALE REPLIES
Yep – That’s because we are not slaughtering at a steady rate and freezing so we can export in boxes at a steady high demand.

NO reason farmers can’t open plants and sell shares in their companies to suppliers. Take away the Live Export AGENT and tell the meat importer to co-join “direct with farmers”
Take out the cruel middle man
That’s the answer Yabby.

But the Government wont let our meat workers in will they Yabby?
I am sure you know why.
Or Don’t You?

Country girl I emailed you.

Pale, you still don't understand that modern economics is not totally
focussed around your pet hobbyhorse. Govts are not dictatorships
either.

Unemployment here in the West is down to around 3%. What remains
is largely unemployable. You can't go forcing drug addicts, sky
high on ice etc, onto meat chain and put a knife in their hands.

Some of these people have psychiatric problems etc, again not suitable
for a meat chain. In fact, if you've ever been an employer, its
pretty hopeless employing anyone who simply does not want to be
there. Its bad enough now in the meatworks. Sometimes 20%
won't turn up on a Monday, time for a sickie. More automation
plus overseas workers who appreciate a job, is where it has to
go.

But it won't happen right now, as the meatworkers union are the
loudest screamers and the libs won't do anything that rocks the
boat before an election. So its a stalemate. We'll see, after the
elections, how things are then.

Our grandfathers and fathers survived, as they did not expect
life on a plate, as people do now. When did you last work on
a meatchain?

We send the jobs overseas that we arn't good at Pale. Meantime
the mining industry is screaming for people, for fantastic money.
Farming can't compete with that, thats the reality.

You will never slaughter at a steady rate, whilst you have variable
weather. Grain feeding things like mutton, which is worth little
more then fertiliser per tonne, is simply not a viable option.
So the best option is variable labour supply, where overseas
workers can earn here in a month, what they earn in a year back
home. Thats better then sending them development aid money,
as its a win win situation for all.

Yabbs Said

Pale, Govts are not dictatorships
either.
PALE Replies
Umm really- Costellos new act is then? To stop freedom of Speech?
-
Yabby Said
You can't go forcing drug addicts, sky
high on ice etc, onto meat chain and put a knife in their hands.

PALE Replies
Thanks You have just given me a wonderful idea for rehab programes! Many jobs are making carboard boxes and packing.
The Government can establish rehabilitation shelters and goals near the plants.

Dr Yabby said
Some of these people have psychiatric problems

PALE replies

Too bad because they NEED to be got off their bums, drugs and "centerlink" and be forced to work doing "something". They are bleeding the nation.

Yabby said
More automation
plus overseas workers who appreciate a job.

PALE Replies
Yep - Bring in our trained workers just like every other indusrty is able to. Huh! and you claim Government are not dictators!

Yabby said
meatworkers union are the
loudest screamers.

PALE replies
Hello I cant HEAR the AMIEU - Can You? Yabby let me "assure you" the Meat union were TOLD to BACK OFF LIVE ANIMALS EXPORTS SOME TIME AGO.
Isnt that right ALP Mr Rudd?


Yabby Said-

So its a stalemate. We'll see, after the
elections, how things are then.
Our grandfathers and fathers survived, as they did not expect
life on a plate, as people do now.
PALE replies
Its our duty to get this country back on track. Why should the Animals suffer because WE cant sort out little junkies.

Yabbs said
You will never slaughter at a steady rate, whilst you have variable
weather.

PALE replies

Yes you will its called organisation, management and less greed from the middle man. Because there `wont be` any middle men.
Do you know why Yabby?
Because right now its off shore owned interests and operated.
In the furture it will be off shore owned with AUSTRALIAN FARMERS as partners DIRECT.
Good By Mr Elders AWB -
We will use 'our own' ships thanks BUILT by "our own aboriginal people"
tooodle pip! you cruel low lifes/

Pale, under our free speech laws, you still can't say whatever you
like about people and destroy their reputation. What the new law
will mean is that you can't do it to companies and industries either,
if they are acting lawfully. Fair enough. If you think that the
law is wrong, under our democratic system, you are free to try
and get the law changed. Others might or might not agree with you.

If you want to know about the affects of ice, go down to the
emergancy ward at your hospital. These people need security
guards to hold them down. Not much point in trying to employ them
at anything, until you have a way of dealing with the addiction.

The meat industry is not short of trained workers, they are happy
to train them. Ask Fletcher, he can't get untrained workers
in West Australia.

The AMIEU are not screaming about the live trade, but about 457
workers. They claim that if you paid workers more, you would find
them. At the present time, to send a sheep down a meat chain
in Aus, often costs more then the sheep is worth in the marketplace.
Labour cost is the biggest issue. If you increasd that cost even
more, the industry would become even more unviable, so automation
is the best option long term.

Steady rate slaughter is not about management or organisation, its
about not being able to manage rainfall. Its an agro economic argument
about the cost of grain versus the cost of pasture, versus the
cost of various meat. No reason that labour can't be flexible and
seasonal, using overseas seasonal labour. Its better then sending
off billions in overseas aid, as its a win-win situation all round.

But anyhow, you are feel to dream on about whatever you like :)
Right now there are 3 plants on the drawing board in WA. I
was told by one informed source, that it would take 3 years of
negotiation with the EPA, just to clear their hurdles for one of
them. No wonder companies don't build them!

Yabby,

Just a minor point about the anti-boycott laws, if they had been in place even five years ago, the campaign against James Hardie for compensation over asbestos related diseases would not have been able to work. Instead Hardie would be entitled to sue the protestors for any lost revenue.

James, I have not studied the law to the endth detail, to agree with
you or not.

What I do know is that Costello is a reasonable and intelligent
fellow. The attack, which a multi national organisation like
Peta orchestrated on the sheep industry, was an absolute scandal.

The truth did not seem to matter, their agenda was followed with
relative impunity. If the law is changed so that this sort of
attack does not happen again, then I applaud Costello for
assisting to protect Aussie farmers against these scoundrels.

Costello is not beyond approach. If his suggested law can
be reworded to achieve its objective (which is about the Peta
case), yet still alay your concerns about cases like which
you mention, then I suggest that you approach him with your
ammended suggestions to the proposed law

Councilor Yabbs.

RECostello~s law

I don’t have to do anything.

Spoke with a couple of lawyers. They will challenge it because it’s the start to the end of Freedom of Speech in Australia and for that reason only. “Their horrified” James is right

. Thanks PETA you fools – Help open plants!

ICE-

Yabby I have compassion for The Elderly, Animals, Aboriginal people even you.).. None for Druggies!

It’s self inflicted.

Happy to provide rehabilitation centers with WORK.

Sir Yabbs Says

Pale, under our free speech laws, you still can't say whatever you
like about people and destroy their reputation.

Oh Gee Yabbs. I am really scared now. Does this mean I can’t call Live Exporters the lowest form of life anymore? I am shaking at the knees?

Yabb`s Says
Ask Fletcher, he can't get untrained workers
in West Australia
Pale replies
First you say you cant get them because they are all on ice- Now its changed to – there are plenty. Yabb`s have you been drinking that wine again?

Rodger always says live exports will die anyway because of the ships. I disagree.

Yabby said
The AMIEU are not screaming about the live trade, but about 457
workers.
PALE replies
No they are NOT screaming about Live Exports Yabby. They were INSTRUCTED to” back off live exports!”

Yabby said
. At the present time, to send a sheep down a meat chain
in Aus, often costs more then the sheep is worth in the marketplace.
Labour cost is the biggest issue

PALE replies-

WHO~S fault is that?

Yabby said

No reason that Labour can't be flexible and
seasonal, using overseas seasonal labour. Its better then sending
off billions in overseas aid, as its a win-win situation all round

Pale replies

Absolutely agree one hundred percent with you.

Yabby said
but anyhow, you are feeling to dream on about whatever you like :)

PALE replies- Thank You kind Sir). I know something you don’t). I am DYING to tell you but have to wait.

YABBYSAID

There are 3 plants on the drawing board in WA.

PALEReplies
Which areas- please?

"First you say you cant get them because they are all on ice- Now its changed to – there are plenty. Yabb`s have you been drinking that wine again?"

Actually, if you reread my posts, I never said that at all.

So it must be all that Bundy thats the real problem :)

Yabby,

The thing is, the laws were not about the PETA case, the coalition has had a passion about secondary boycotts for a lot longer than PETA has been harrassing the Australian Wool Industry.

I personally don't believe that Peter Costello would change the laws unless it was shown to be in the political interests of his party, but thats just me, however it would be interesting to see what he would have to say if such an amendment was presented.(and remember to take everything I say with a grain of salt, senatorial ambitions and all that).

James

I agree with you and I personally take exception to Costello giving over a billion dollars in grants to a organisation that has been named amd shamed as having huge interests in the cruel live Animal trade.
One billion dollars in grants has been awared to Elders the Live Exporters along with Optus to install comminication.
We may need comminication but Elders dont have to be the ones awarded the funds.
There has been millions of dollars of the peoples money paid out in the past to conduct enquiries into this cruel trade. Each enquiry has come back with stop live animal exports without delay. that was years agoyet the tall poppies still push on and the Governments fear loosing their support from these monsters so ignore their own enquires.
RSPCA are sreaming about this trade and I see this law gagging the public from speaking out as criminal. RSPCA were warned if the protested against Live exports around election time they would loose their tax deduction. Now this! They are desperate to gag RSPCA and anybody who helps the animals.
Lets face it James- What is a group?- A group of people.
Yabby
you say you have tried to assist in re opening plants. Fair enough if you say so I guess I will have to take your word for it.
Seems to me you cant answer a simply question.
So I dont think you are all that interested to be honest.
You keep going on about the Mines.
Let me assure you they will run out one day and regardless we need food to feed the nation.
People who think sanctions are just in other countries have a great deal to learn.

Country Girl. I received your long email and found it interesting. I sent you a reply and an invitation to meet with people from Saudi re all types of farming.
Did you receive it?

"Seems to me you cant answer a simply question."

Its not about can't, its about why bother. Its public
information anyhow, if you were informed you would know
it.

Fact is I've tried to explain the fundamentals to you
of what is going on in WA, but nothing sinks in, its
out the other ear or wherever.

I've come to the conclusion that you have your little
fantasies and if reality comes along, you don't really
let those things interfere with it all. Ok fine,
so do what you think, I think most of it is little
more then dreaming.

But we'll see. I was right about the so called muslim
leaders, we'll see about the rest of it.

Yabbs
Posting the info was just a request. Sure its available.
I wont comment yet on anything else other than to say either it happens or it doesnt. Even if it does its going to be a slow long haul I am afraid.
As you said a year ago Yabby the Government made certain choices a few years back and with that changed the map a bit.

Quite rightly you said the Government would have to make some changes to make the red meat industry more competative.

We are acknowkedge some of those will have to be reversed. Its controlled like just about everything else here-by off shore players and Australia just goes along.

Which is why we dont spend all our time asking for donations and rushing to the warfs to wave banners. Because we understand it will change one day but "never:" through Australia much to our shame.
Dont get me wrong we need people to continue to do that as well.

' There are two things only anybody required.
A farmers in Australia
B Good contacts with overseas.
We can pretty much do it then and I dont see the Government in there anywhere.
There are many Governments world wide Yabby with all sorts of trade tarrifs.
When it suites some of 'them to make changes to theirs I "doubt very much" anybody will be too worried about Australia.
As usual we will do what they are told by overseas.

Of course you may be right and it might all fall through.
In which case we can say at least we tried and I cant see we are hurting anybody by doing so.
We are not extreme. We support farmers. We support peoples right to choose to eat meat or not eat meat. We support the right for the meat industry to have the same rights as every other Industry in Australia to bring in Abattoir workers.
WE also support Fair minded Muslim Leaders with compassion and there are still plenty about so lets see what pans out.

thanks for the comment