Swedish Corona infections climbed past 8,000 last week, the highest figure yet.

With vaccines just starting to be introduced how soon can we declare the Swedish experiment a failure or are there diehards here who will never admit it?

Dear mhaze,

Mate this was specifically posted with you in mind. No response?

Hi SR,

I suspect that Trumpf (and his followers) are so infantile that they think that the virus is now overcome, because the distribution of vaccines is somehow almost instant across the US.

But even if the pharma companies could ramp up the production of doses to, say, five million each day, and with everybody getting their two doses, that would still take nearly four months. In the meantime, the virus would keep spreading, gradually more slowly, before the number of deaths avoided started to decline - but that may take most of that time, perhaps three months at that rate of five million doses a day. So maybe that's another 300,000 deaths from the Trump Virus Response (TVR), bringing his total to around 600,000. Two hundred 9/11s on Trump's watch.

And after all, people who have been vaccinated may still be carrying the virus - they won't get sick from it, but they can still spread it. So we're a long way from overcoming this virus. On top of hat of course,care the half-wits who refuse to take the vaccine (because it's a way for Bill Gates and other Jews from inserting nano-chips into all of us), or even still believe that the whole thing is a hoax (are there really people that dumb ? In the US, yes of course.).

So what dumb-arses are still going to get infected in the US ? Those with a misplaced notion of 'freedom' vs social responsibility, those afraid of the vaccine, and those who don't believe it's all fair dinkum. Quite a sizeable pool of low-IQ people. What a pity that they'll be missed by the Republican Party.

Joe

The scuttlebutt I have is to wait 6 months after the introduction of the vaccine rollout before getting vaccinated because no one can tell us what the long term effects will be of the proposed vaccine.

But don't let that stop others from being first in line, especially those in the pro-Chiner camp like Foul-Mouth, Foxy, david f, Hasbeen, mhaze, and a lot of others.

Better them than me.

Joe these anti Trump posts of yours do demean you.

You know as well as I do that most of the Virus problem in the US particularly, is down to state governors & city mayors, even more so than in OZ. We have all seen the catastrophe that one stupid Labor premier in one state caused to boost the death rate here, & the US system gave Trump even less power to control the renegades in New York, than our PM had. The Democrat governor & Mayor of New York should be on murder charges for their handling of nursing homes.

These posts really are way below the standard of your usually well considered responses. Opportunistic is not a description I would ever have expected to apply to a post of yours.

The left do not come out of this problem well. Have you noticed it was the lefties, [Democrats], that screamed when Trump cut in coming flights to the us, & the same to a slightly lessor extent here. However it is the lefties screaming that Boris did not cut incoming flights to the UK.

As I said opportunistic politicking has been the order of the day.

Ironically it has been the lefty premier here in Qld copping it from the Liberals in NSW for shutting the boarder. To say politicians "aint what they used to be" like the old grey mare, is very true today.

Dear Hasbeen,

Demena him? Good god, are you serious?

That you should tie your coat tails to one of the most venal, corrupt, crass, and incompetent presidents of recent times is far more a reflection on you I'm afraid.

He is the very embodiment of what you use to detest in a politician and now your are fawning over him.

Trump referred to the virus as a “hoax”, he repeatedly said they had it “under control”, he claimed the US had the lowest fatality rate in the world when they were in fact 9th, and he claimed he had “launched the largest national mobilization since World War II” which was patently incorrect.

On H1N1 Obama declared an emergency within 2 weeks of it hitting the US. Trump took 9.

The list of his failures on this are so extensive it makes the eyes water but he still has you championing for him. A cult is the only logical reason.

Thanks, Steele :)

All the best for the holiday season.

Joe

SR, any idea of the total number of deaths in Sweden this year compared to preceeding years? See we hear scary scary figures for infections but then are told there was no flu this year. It just does not add up?
I think Sweden is in a better position than Australia with a lot less small business closures.
Do you ever go out SR? Check out the neighborhood and see how many vacant shops and closed businesses there are. Just watch death rates for other causes like cancer and suicide next year.
Watching the Victorian idiot saying don't come from Sydney and don't go to Sydney turned my stomach. Time to put a wage ceiling of $500 per week on all public servants for the duration of Covid.

JBowyer,
If you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys.
And if you pay peanuts in Australia, you will also get sued for wage theft!

We need a capable public sector.

Dear Jbowyer,

Firstly Daniel Andrews is quite highly regarded in my state so go whinge about him to someone else.

Of course flu numbers are down, particularly in Australia where the Corona protocols have keep it very much in check.

Sweden suffered the highest GDP drop of all the Scandinavian countries, markedly worse than those which were the most stringent in their lockdowns.

The reason for the current surge in iron ore prices that Australia is enjoying is because Brazilian iron ore workers are coping with high levels of corona infections.

“The Brazilian company at the centre of the iron ore price rally says its mines are running on minimum staff levels to prevent the spread of the coronavirus among its workforce, as its licence to operate comes under extreme pressure from Brazilian regulators. “

http://www.afr.com/companies/mining/vale-says-iron-ore-output-will-depend-on-absentees-20200602-p54ylh

That is what people like you wanted for this country. Luckily we had leaders like Andrews to tell them to get stuffed.

Come off it Aidan, we have a whole million of those monkeys now, pity we don't pay them what they are worth.

Perhaps if we could arrange a swap with Africa. We will give them our bureaucrat monkeys, & improve our government with a million of their monkeys. We would be way ahead

SR you kissed your boyfriend Danielle and blew hard! How about the death figures last year versus this year? In UK there were more hospital admissions last year and more deaths.
Why don't we get up to date figures, privacy? No this is the perfect way to destroy our economy and increase government spending until the fools realise who actually makes a nation's wealth. Tip, it is not the government!
I do not mean you personally, you know.

Dear JBowyer,

You plead; "No this is the perfect way to destroy our economy and increase government spending until the fools realise who actually makes a nation's wealth."

Rubbish. I just gave you a very salient example of the impact of rampant Corona infections on the ability of Brazil to export its iron ore.

You come back with some rambling Sky News sound bite which is absolutely contrary to the evidence. If you have something concrete then put it up otherwise put a sock in it.

Your statement was pure self projection.

SR,

Good example Brazilian iron ore. Australia is actually benefiting from a artificially high iron ore price of $US150/ton, realistically it could be as low as $50/ton. Two factor Brazils lost of production due to rampant coronavirus, and Chinas high steel production due to well controlled coronavirus. How long will the party last? When Brazil gets back to full production, then China may not need Australian iron ore.

With the on going spat with China, some are asking what is the Morrison governments much touted China/Australia free trade deal actually worth to us. Seems China can turn off trade with Australia whenever it likes.

It appears that Sweden has just made the call on themselves, declaring their approach was wrong & apologising for the mistake.

I didn't see any discussion on what they plan to do now.

Hasbeen,

Sweden now requires masks on public transport. Common sense, a rare quality in some more-low-IQ countries such as the US, requires social distancing. Sweden may even start up a testing and tracing system, who knows. Bit late for that in the US, with 238,000 new cases on Friday, and 17.4 million all up.

I'm still puzzled how they are going to rollout the vaccine programs in the US: the health system is already overwhelmed just looking after cases, so who is going to do the vaccinations ? So, many 12-hour, 7-day shifts, for very many people. Unsung heroes, in a land of morons.

Meanwhile, the half-wits deliberately go around without masks, and refuse the vaccine. The quarter-wits don't even believe in the virus. And then there's Trumpf.

By the way, how's that Texas bid to secede going ? Maybe Biden should give it back to Mexico.

Joe

Adam Creighton must have seen this post. This is worth a read. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/exclusives/personal-liberty-sacrificed-at-the-altar-of-covid-public-safety/news-story/158ba49b6b01bdf2ab70dbceac3974b5 And looking at the statistics might make things clear too - the second peak passed in Sweden before anyone panicked and put lockdowns in place https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus//country/sweden/.

As usual this is just left-wing trolling and tribal barracking by SR, without a bit of substance behind it.

Hi Graham,

Populations:

*. Australia: 25 million
*. Sweden: roughly 12 million (say, half of Australia's)
*. the US: 330 million (about 13 times Australia's).

Covid death toll:

Australia: about 850
Sweden: about 10,000
the US: 312,000

If Sweden and the US had followed Australia's lead, their death rates could have been:

Sweden: 400-450, an unfavourable differential of 23 (450: 10,000).
the US: 11,000, an unfavourable differential of 28 11,000: 312,000.

So who's the mugs ? Or don't lives matter ? Or should economic benefits outweigh lives ? Hmmmm ...... how much is a life worth ?

Joe

September 15, 2020

In an interview with Fox & Friends Tuesday, Trump said he believes the U.S. will have a vaccine in “a matter of weeks,” before laying out a more specific timeline, predicting a vaccine could come in as little as “four,” or “eight” weeks.

Trump wrong again as usual so far as the insipid Left is concerned ?

Individual,

Well, yes, Trump was a few weeks out in the INTRODUCTION of the vaccine, and perhaps a year out in its full delivery. He was speaking hopefully.
Ande after all - correct me if I'm wrong - he believes that once a vaccine had been developed, it would almost instantaneously be available everywhere: problem solved. All gone by the time of the inauguration of Biden. Probably not.

Well, no. Only so much vaccine can be produced each day, even by two or three companies, and the US population is around 330 million. Possibly, you can do the maths. Hmmm, maybe not.

Meanwhile, the virus kills at a slowly declining rate - currently, around four or five thousand a day, and rising. The tipping point between virus effects and vaccine effects is probably some months off yet - longer for those dim-wits who won't take the vaccine, and longer still for those short-lived dumb-arses who still believe that it's a hoax.

Thanks to those Republican supporters, the baneful effects of the virus will continue into 2022 and beyond, slowly but inexorably reducing the numbers of potential Republican voters in the 2022 House elections.

Joe

Hmmmm ...... how much is a life worth?

Well Joe, Something I read on WWI, according to a British Capitalist of the time, it cost Capital 8 pounds to put a Tommy in the trenches, but the return to Capital was something like 64 pounds per solider, a tidy profit of 56 pounds. Now the same Capitalist argued that the public would support the war until 1921 or 22. Think of all that fantastic profit, a win win situation for all.

The Swedes, have all locked themselves in their lovely little saunas until the virus goes away. Read some Murdoch trash SR and be enlighten by the thoughts of Chairman Rupert. Fair go, even the King of Sweden said the joints a basket case when it comes to its response to the virus.

Indy, Trump also said the virus would be gone with the arrival of the Easter Bunny!

Dear GrahamY,

Having discontinued my subscriptions of all Murdoch publications after the last Federal election I do not have access to the writings of Adam Creighton, however I in no way feel less informed because of it.

For you to now be claiming “the second peak passed in Sweden before anyone panicked and put lockdowns in place” shows perhaps you too should be handing in your subscription too.

How on earth do you manage to see a 'passed' second peak when the last daily infection count was a record at 9,656 people? I am utterly bemused by what you are putting.

This thing is off and running and despite bans on gatherings of more than 8 people and other measures Sweden's limp-wristed approach will see its likely death toll over 10,000 by the end of January unless it steps up considerably.

The Swedish king said his country's response has “failed” Swedes. That sentiment is growing among his subjects.

SR if there wass a national award for cowardice then Australia would be the Gold Medalist! I have personally lived through Polio 1950's, Flu 1956 & 1968 and assorted other viruses over the last few years. First time anyone was dumb enough to listen to half arsed medico's, let bed wetting politicians judge things and try and destroy the bulk of small business. Polio apart, all the viruses mainly affected the very old and sick. A valid point was all the usual suspects missed looking after them and instead indulged in grand standing theatrics!
This caused the deaths and those deaths would have occurred anyway. The figures show median age of death 82, no change. Nothing from you still on comparative yearly deaths over the last ten years because it will expose the stupidity and criminal negligence killing small business and favouring Public Service lazy scum!
The real joke is we are still floundering and it will soon become necessary to make up some alibi to protect you absolute fools andyour hatred of small business.

Just you wait for the next Flu season !

Dear JBowyer,

Blah, blah, blah.

Mate you do crap on don't you.

I gave you an example of where our biggest export earner is powering along because our direct competitor has a right wing nut job as a leader, one who took your attitude with Corona, so is getting hammered because of a depleted workforce due to the virus. You sir are one of “the fools realise who actually makes a nation's wealth”.

And somehow the best you have got is to say I have a hatred of small business? You haven't offered up one fact, one reference or a single substantive counter argument. Just some inconsequential little snarl over your shoulder.

The bulk of small businesses haven't been destroyed and the economy is rebounding fine. The budget for those the government thought would still be needing assistance has dropped dramatically. You happen to live in one of the best countries in the world precisely because we have governments capable of putting lives ahead of the needs of big businesses yet you are attacking it.

Danial Andrews was not cowardly, rather he showed decisive and brave leadership when it was required. The fact that you see this as cowardly speaks a lot more of your value set than anything else.

Grow up.

Oh god yes SR. It was just so brave of Danial Andrews, sending all those infected into the nursing homes to infect & KILL hundreds of those pesky pensioners.

The fact that he is not in prison for life shows how poor our justice system has been corrupted by lefties.

Dear Hasbeen,

What is this? "sending all those infected into the nursing homes to infect & KILL hundreds of those pesky pensioners"

What are you yabbering on about now? Late on a Saturday night and well past your bedtime old chum, and lay off the sherry for us too, it would be appreciated.

Trump also said the virus would be gone with the arrival of the Easter Bunny!
Paul1405,
It could be if we just let it have its run !

Can't trust those Liberals! Seems the latest Covid-19 outbreak in the Northern Beaches of Sydney can be traced back to a "special exemption" from hotel quarantine given to a person who arrived in Australia from the US 1st December. The NSW Health Minister 'The Hazard' is doing his best not to come clean. Was the exemption grated at the ministerial level, was this person a special friend of the Liberal Party? The media seem to smell a rat. Dozens infected, thousands in lockdown!

Ah SR you tell me to shut up but for the third time, relative deaths over this last year against preceeding years? It's less matey but watch out for next year with all the cancer and suicides it will be over sized then.
Andrews is a treacherous communist scab. Happy for his Chinese bosses to murder millions of their own people as long as he gets rewarded. All the poncy medico's will get theirs from their even worse political bosses , like Andrews, as he throws them under the bus when people realise what has been done.
SR all your smart comments do not worry me, you are typical SJW, left-wing rubbish person and I leave you to stew in your own vile juice!

Bowyer,

No, I don't think Andrews is a communist scab: he's saved Victoria, in spite of that hotel outbreak, from potentially thousands of deaths.

If you can do the maths (or get your grand-daughter to help you), you will calculate that Andrews, like all of the other premiers in Australia, has saved hundreds of thousands of deaths compared to your 'clown' president Trumpf. But that doesn't matter a jot to you, does it ? What a complete turd.

Back to your hole, Bowyer.

Joe

Joe your TDS knows no bounds. I know I have told you but I am 73, overweight with a heart condition so Covid could be problematic to me. However I am far more afraid of our current crop of scab political leaders. Borrowed billions, gave themselves and the public service pay rises, destroying small business! Did I miss anything?
Andrews should be facing Industrial Manslaughter charges as he was personally responsible for 90% of Australian deaths.
Covid, what a joke? No impact on hospital or emergency beds and no increase in national death rate.
I suggest you take your own advice and crawl into a hole, here is a tip take the Chinese Hunchback with you!

Dear Jbowyer,

Jesus mate, can't you get your story straight even within the same post. Please tell me how on earth you reconcile these two sentences.

“Covid, what a joke? No impact on hospital or emergency beds and no increase in national death rate.”

“Andrews should be facing Industrial Manslaughter charges as he was personally responsible for 90% of Australian deaths.”

You sir are an idiot who can't put two consecutive points together. You really need to give this away. I really do feel sorry for you, being a clueless dolt is not the best thing to have on your resume.

Swedish Corona infections climbed past 8,000 last week, the highest figure yet.
SteeleRedux,
?? Have you bothered to look at the Demographic there ?

SR my apologies, I did not realise it would upset you into a tantrum by reminding you that you have not addressed my original point?
Anyway have a cry and let me tell you, no increase in deaths this year over last year. All the covid deaths are the very sick and old who would have died anyway. Also big increase next year for all who will die from cancer, deferred operations and suicide.
Your hero Andrews actually caused all the deaths in care homes (90% of Australia total) by his incompetence and as it is his Industrial manslaughter law he should be charged. The vain, egotistical idiot Andrew's loves telling us what to do which I can see you enjoy but really I don't!
Don't wet the bed son, cool down and get a responsible adult to explain these things to you because I am done with you.

Dear JBowyer,

Lol. You have just gone and done it again.

You can either down play Covid to the ordinary flu with no excess deaths or you can blame Daniel Andrews for causing hundreds of deaths, but you can't have it both. Make up your mind mate because right now you are looking incredibly stupid.

As to excess death which country do you want them for. If it is Sweden then here are the figures compared to the other Scandinavian countries.
http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&country=SWE~DNK~FIN~NOR&region=World

Dear GrahamY,

I have just realised why you thought the Swedes had gotten through the second wave. You are obviously unaware that the Swedish CDC count deaths differently to many other countries.

"COVID-19 deaths are reported by the Swedish government by the date on which the death occurred.

Since there is a lag between the time a person dies and the time the death is reported, the death counts for the most recent period are always incomplete. They are often most incomplete for the latest 2 to 5 days, but can be incomplete for 10 days or more. This undercount in recent days means that they often appear to be falling; but when this is later completed, data shows that more deaths were occurring during that period.

This means that for the last 10 days of data, death counts in Sweden must only be interpreted as incomplete measures of mortality."

And

"In the data that we present on Our World in Data, which comes directly from the European CDC, deaths in Sweden are shown by date of death, while deaths in other countries are shown by date of report.

This matters because it takes a number of days until all deaths for a particular day are reported. In practice this means that Sweden might today only report 10 deaths for yesterday, but once reporting is complete the death count for that day might increase to 40.

The death counts for the last 10 days in Sweden should therefore always be interpreted as an incomplete count of the deaths that occurred in this period."

http://ourworldindata.org/covid-sweden-death-reporting

Hopefully this clears things up for you.

Poor old silly SR still babbling on and utterly hopeless! I will tell you. Less deaths this year than last because covid is just sweeping up all the old weak people like me as flu or pneumonia. A useful excuse for your fascist mates to take over things and boss people around as nazis always do using covid as a blind.
Put away your swastika armband and give the goose-stepping a rest and take your fellow idiot Joe for a nice rant against Trump it is all you are good for!

Dear JBowyer,

My goodness me did you really just accuse me of being a fascist and wearing a Swastika armband after saying this: "just sweeping up all the old weak people" with such enthusiasm?

You have perfectly displayed the same discredited eugenics mindset of the Nazis yet you sling the slur with gay abandon. Projection manifest on your behalf I'm afraid.

Lol. You aren't very good at this are you. Perhaps return after a good rest and some time spent thinking about your arguments would be advisable.

Hi SR,

Since we are talking NAZI, JB could explain that 6 million Jews and others didn't perish in the 'Holocaust'. In the time of such an horrendous war many of those people wouldn't have survived anyway. A couple of million would have perished through the normal acts of war, a couple of million more from starvation and the harshness of living during a war of that magnitude. The other 2 million, children and old people would have died of natural causes, disease etc. Why blame the NAZI'S?

Paul 1405 well amazing you are stupid enough to believe the holocaust never took place but I suggest you keep that opinion to yourself. In many countries espousing denialist views like this would leave you open to prosecution. Join up with your other nazi mates here, get a phone box and have a torchlight parade and I will throw rocks at you!

Dear JBowyer,

He is not denying the Holocaust just showing how much your views reflect the Nazis.

"In 1920, the psychiatrist Alfred Hoche and the jurist Karl Binding published their treatise, “Permitting the Destruction of Unworthy Life,” which became the blueprint for the exterminations of the disabled carried out by the Third Reich."

The weak and the elderly seem to be Unworthy Life according to you. You are rightly getting called out on those views. That is all that is happening here.

SR first your Nazi boyfriend Paul reveals himself as a holocaust denier now you want to kill all the weak and ill in society? Are you one and the same? Some lame brain soyboy raging against Trump with two identities here?
Nothing surprises me anymore, supposed support for the horrible hunchback in Victoria, torchlit rallies with you, Paul and Joe? Anyway save your bile and upset for your nearest and dearest and try and have a reasonably good time. I am off to visit my Sister and the good times offered by Geelong!

JB, thanks to the great work done by the government and health authorities in Victoria in controlling the second wave of Covid-19 down your way, you are free to visit your dear sister in Geelong for the happy festive season. May I suggest before your second glass of schnapps, before you partake of anymore bratwurst sausage, and before you launch into the chorus of 'Es Fiel Ein Reif in der Frühlingsnacht' you offer a thankful toast to the health of Herr Andrews. Note I said second toast, we know who your fist toast is always directed to, the Fuhrer himself of course. Fortunately you are not in Sweden, cause you would be spending the holidays locked in your sauna avoiding the pandemic, and not enjoying a yummy Christmas dinner like the rest of us! I suppose if you were in the sauna, you could have boiled sauerkraut for Christmas, and lots of it.

BTW, don't take life too serious, and like me don't take this Forum seriously at all. All the best to you and your family for the holiday season, keep safe and well, and we'll catch up on here next time.

Paul1405,

I thought The Forum was some form of government sponsored anger management program which encouraged participants in a 'Get To Know Your Inner Chiner" scheme to let off steam.

How could I have got it so wrong?

I know! ............ I'll just blame the likes of Foxy, Foul-Mouth and Hasbeen.

Considering that there is very little difference between Sweden and Denmark, and several other countries it would appear that all different types of dealing with the virus are failures.

The system that appears to work is a well-managed quarantine system and contact tracing unlike the disaster caused by the idiot bubonic Dan in Victoria.

Huge stuff up in SA, with the tyrants telling people that they can't come here to be with their families for Xmas, then, oops, they got it wrong. They could have come. Too late for the people who have already turned back. Inconvenience. Cost. All fixed by an apology from a wooden-faced police commissioner - not. Nothing from the glamour-girl, massive wardbobe, chief health stuffer-up. Lots of tears from grannies who haven't seen the grandchildren for 12 months. Well, that's what you get and you surrender to dictators.

In 2022, most of the sobbers will still vote for the people responsible for the 2020 chaos; so, they just have to suck it up.

We might stand a chance of eradicating the WuFlu virus if Soot and Dazza's gal stop trying to force the international border open in order to bring in tens of thousands of cashed up Chiners.

Mr. Opinion,

There's no doubt that the political class is now sure that it can do what it likes with us. They treat Australia citizens as if we are actually Chinese citizens, and they are the CCP, telling us what we can and can't do; but, for the sake of the mighty dollar, they open the borders to fee-paying Chinese students and Australia whiners who have preferred foreign climes to their own country, but who now want to scuttle back because they are frightened of what is happening in countries they chose to live in rather than their own.

Ttbn,

In the Australian today (I think it was in Judith Sloan's article), the number of Chinese students was recorded as 100,000 since 2007, or about six thousand new students each year.

Not exactly a Babylonian Flood :)

Joe

Shonkyminister does it again, Sweden with a population of 10 million has 8,000 deaths, Denmark with a population of 5 million has 1,000 deaths. According to Shonkyminister; "there is very little difference between Sweden and Denmark" What are we talking Shonky, geographically, culturally, the fact they both love hot tubs, what is it, can't be the covid-19, Sweden is doing far worse than Denmark on the death rate? Got to get your head out of that 'Daily Telecrap' you keep reading.

Foul-Mouth,

But didn't you tell us elsewhere that there are half a million Chiners (ie non-Australian Chinese being 2% of the people residing in Australia) and that most of these are students?

Paul1405,

The shadyminister doesn't get his information from any source.

He makes it up as he goes along. It's the way engineers do things.

A comment heard on Sky News today was that Morrison is the first Prime Minister since 1901 to find out just how much power he has - or, how much power he doesn't have. It's the state premiers who appear to have all the power.

Overhaul our broken down Federation

Not everyone suffers ttbn; "Seems the latest Covid-19 outbreak in the Northern Beaches of Sydney can be traced back to a "special exemption" from hotel quarantine given to a person who arrived in Australia from the US 1st December. The NSW Health Minister 'The Hazard' of Ruby Princess fame, is doing his best not to come clean. Was the exemption grated at the ministerial level, was this person a special friend of the Liberal Party? The media seem to smell a rat. Dozens infected, thousands in lockdown!

Paul1405,

And I bet Dazza's gal didn't know a thing about it.

You can read them like a book.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“Considering that there is very little difference between Sweden and Denmark, and several other countries it would appear that all different types of dealing with the virus are failures.”

Little difference? Bollocks. Denmark my geologically stunted fellow is attached to mainland Europe while Sweden enjoys a position between two other Scandinavian countries which have done remarkably well in keeping both infections and deaths among the lowest in Europe.

Yet Denmark has kept the deaths per million to 181 while Sweden is at a staggering 798.

Please explain yourself.

SteeleRedux,

Please keep in mind that the shadyminister is just an engineer.

That's his excuse (c/o Mr Opinion) for being ignorant about things outside of his vocational training.

SR,

You opened citing the infection rate and according to world data, Sweden is 665/m and Denmark is 611/m so suck it up.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Oh you are talking about the current 7 day average figure. Yes Denmark has shot up on that account and it certainly has gone with a lighter touch than the other Scandinavian countries. In fact it was the first to ease restrictions after the first wave.

“COPENHAGEN (Reuters) - Denmark, the first country outside Asia to ease its coronavirus lockdown, said on Wednesday the spread of COVID-19 has not accelerated since it entered its second phase of reopening society last month.
The Nordic country allowed restaurants, cafes and malls to resume business during May in the second phase of easing lockdown restrictions. In April it had allowed day care centres, schools, hair dressers and some small businesses to reopen.”

So it appears the weaker responses do result in more infections. Who would have thunk it?

However I am confident that Denmark will get on top of this before Sweden and within a couple of weeks it will have an infection rate half that.

WHO and many expertss advised the world not to expect a vaccine in a hurry, or at all! Trump was roundly lambasted, ridiculed , lampooned for saying there'd be one before Xmas. I don't love the guy but let's give him credit for turning out to be right.
The fact that there is a vaccine is now reason to continue restrictions towards elimination, even tho' this has been elusive nationally.

Prior to a vaccine, herd-immunity was only attainable by infection, and to allow that at a controlled rate was the path Sweden took. The first wave got right into the nursing homes, as in Victoria's second wave coming after the supposed cogniscenti claimed CV19 was eliminated after the first wave.

Only in retrospect does Sweden's approach appear wrong. However, I remain in support of it given the facts as they stood. There's still a long way to go even with a vaccine in the pipeline here and a huge impact, health and economic, yet to be felt short, mid and long-term.

Shutting borders to entire state populations on the basis of outbreaks in small areas of states only will continue to kill the economy and screw up lives and livelihoods. We need protection via quarantining from those in outbreak areas, not from entire state populations in the months ahead.

The power of the Premiers is applied parochially and with extreme prejudice because the feds (we) are paying the bill the end of it all. They get to look tough and scare our pants off about the 'deadly' virus that only deadly to the tiny proportion of the population that die with it, or because of it. That will be born out in retrospective studies (Approx 3-million die in USA annually so let's see what CV19 added in a country supposedly left entirely to its ravages by Trump)

SR,

I think that the jury is still out on this one. Sweden has without a massive lockdown controlled the virus without wrecking its economy and still fares better than most of the EU.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Compared to the other Scandinavian countries Sweden's economy has fared markedly worse. It turns out that letting the virus run amok or even just off the leash to a degree is quite detrimental to the economy of a country, just ask the Brazilian government which has seen its iron ore production slashed because of sick workers.

In what way could you possibly say the jury is out on this one? If Australia had followed Sweden's lead we would have seen over 13,000 deaths already and be looking to double that by the end of January.

SteeleRedux,

I assume the shortfall in iron ore production in Brazil is the reason Australia is getting higher prices for its iron ore exports.

SR your bland assurance that, "Compared to the other Scandinavian countries Sweden's economy has fared markedly worse", carries about as much weight as a UN assurance.

If you want to be taken seriously, do give us some REAL figures,& not some of your usual "dreamed up" figures either.

The Swedish government has decided they got it wrong, & apologised for their mistake, so your claim may be correct, but your bland assurances are worth less than the paper you could print them on.

SR,

Sweden has not fared worse than the other Nordic countries economically rather the opposite.

Hi Shadow Minister,

Yes, you're probably right, that we can set off Covid-19 deaths against economic activity.

Sweden is a good candidate for trying to do that: so many deaths incurred for so many dollars saved. For all those thousands of deaths in Sweden, how much have cafes and restaurants have been able to make ? In other words, how much have other countries like Denmark and Finland lost financially in return for how many deaths, and so how much is a death worth ?

Pretty clearly, a Covid death may be worth less in some countries than others: in the US, where there are two Covid deaths every minute, every day now, one can predict that each death costs the equivalent of about ten million dollars in production. So another hundred thousand deaths this month might cost a trillion dollars in human terms. Oh well, never mind.

We'll get through this, or at least most of us. Too bad about the rest.

Joe

Dear Hasbeen,

You write: “If you want to be taken seriously, do give us some REAL figures,& not some of your usual "dreamed up" figures either.”

Bloody hell you take some spoon feeding don't you. I have repeatedly given the Second quarter figures from the Scandinavian countries on this forum. But it really isn't that hard to look the figures up for yourself. And by the way you would have to be the most fact free posters on this forum. You rarely if every produce either links or figures for your assertions like with your recent electricity prices whinge.

Well here are the figures for how much the GDP figures for each of the Scandinavian countries for Q2 2020.

Quarter 2 GDP

Sweden -8.0%
Denmark -7.1%
Norway -4.3%
Finland -3.9%

Sweden got hammered the worse with the biggest contraction.

Quarter 3 recovery figures

Denmark +5.2%
Sweden +4.9%
Norway +4.6%
Finland +3.3%

http://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/gdp-growth

So the cumulative positions over the 2 quarters are as follows;

Norway 100.1%
Finland 99.2%
Denmark 97.7%
Sweden 95.5%

Let me know if there is anything you don't understand.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Yet again you are full of it. Please see above.

Hi Steele,

This pair are really the prized Xmas turkeys. For Nuk Em' Hassy its all about the 1950's coal and steam, being a petrol head from way back, and for shonkyminister, if he don't read it in Chairman Rups', 'Daily Telecrap's' it just can't be true. The truth is the "let it rip" brigade got it totally wrong. Their thinking was as the virus decimated the population, the good citizens would simply continue to go about their normal business. I assume they thought the "healthy" folks would simply step over the dead in the door way to get their morning coffee fix.

Rather than stupidly simplistic comparisons here are more nuanced analyses:

http://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/fitch-affirms-sweden-at-aaa-outlook-stable-04-12-2020

http://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/fitch-affirms-norway-at-aaa-outlook-stable-28-08-2020

http://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/fitch-affirms-finland-at-aa-outlook-stable-30-10-2020

http://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/fitch-affirms-denmark-at-aaa-outlook-stable-04-09-2020

SR,

I see that once again you are being selective with the facts.

Combine Q1 and Q2 and Sweden's economy drops 7.7% whilst Denmark's drops 8.7%

You are even incompetent at lying.

With over 8,000 dead, and a 1% better economy, the Swedes must be over the Moon with that one!

Shonkyminiister, the truth is people like you don't give a rats about the human toll caused by the virus, its all about dollars and cents with you.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Oh my goodness, really? Given Denmark didn't impose any significant lockdown measures until mid March how on earth do you imagine these would have any degree of influence over the first quarter figures?

Look mate, you were completely exposed as once again having made up Sweden's economic performance.

"Sweden has not fared worse than the other Nordic countries economically rather the opposite."

Now you are scrambling to claw back a scintilla of credibility by bringing in first quarter figures for just one other. Pathetic. Time to give it a miss and try again another day.

Shadow minister,

There's some valid logic in your argument. After all, if we spent nothing on hospitals, no matter what people might be dying from, we could save a fortune, maybe millions of dollars in return for each new death. Given that something like 200,000 Australians die each year, many from diseases which are currently called 'preventable', we could be saving hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars by not treating them. Hundreds of BILLIONS ! Wouldn't that be great ?! Far lower taxes for everybody !

Yes, the death rate in Sweden is higher than elsewhere in Scandinavia, but the economy has suffered somewhat less than in those other countries. But clearly, Sweden has come out on top economically, perhaps to the tune of billions of kroner or Euros or whatever, in return for just a few thousand extra deaths.

As you hint, perhaps we need to look at the trade-off between deaths and economic activity more sympathetically.

Joe

Joe,
>But clearly, Sweden has come out on top economically
WTF do you mean? All the indicators point to the opposite conclusion.

But Aiden, the Swedes can still enjoy a sauna and a hot tub whilst munching on a nob of their favourite "docendicken sausage", even if Uncle Hazel and Aunty Gretel can only be there in sprit. What more could you ask for?

>What more could you ask for?
You to stop posting your unfunny jokes?

SR,

As Denmark started its lockdown in early March the 1st quarter figures are valid unless of course, you are looking to massage them to try and cover up your bulsht claim made earlier.

Aidan,

I passed on your request to the Executive Producer, and he not being a reasonable chap like I.... said; "If you didn't buy a ticket, don't complain about the show."

BTW, even the King of Sweden said sorry, with the governments agreement, saying the country had stuffed up its response to the pandemic. I don't think the king is one for making brash statements, nor the Swedish government wanting to admit to failure.

The joke is that some will still argue that Sweden is a success despite all that has happened and been said.

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MY ACCOUNT'S BEEN HACKED!

In a strange twist the US NSA http://www.nsa.gov/what-we-do/cybersecurity/ tells me both the:

- Chinese government hacker Organisation (MSS/PLA-IT) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_State_Security_(China)

and

- Russian government hacker Organisation (FSB Spetssvyaz) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Communications_Service_of_Russia

Have gone against their usual blanket policies of denial, by BOTH Claiming Responsibility.

Admitting their dogs "Dinner" and "Cosmo-Mutt" did it.

Those bastards!

When is the NSW Liberal Government going to come clean on what it knows about the origin of the covid-19 outbreak on the Northern Beaches of Sydney. Its reported that a returning traveller fro the US on the 1st December was the source of the infection. Its also claimed this returning traveller was given an exemption from hotel quarantining and allowed to self isolate, which presumably they failed to do. Was any ministerial authority given, from The Hazzard of Ruby Princess fame, and for what reason. Maybe this will turn out to be the Liberal Party Cluster! Speak up Gladys.

Hi Paul

Can you provide a link, where "Its reported that a returning traveller fro the US on the 1st December was the source of the infection."

Cheers

Pete

Hi Pete,

I was watching a daily press briefing before Xmas on 'ABC News' where a reporter was pressing both the Premier and Health Minister, The Hazed, on that point. Both were evasive to the questions. All Hazzard would say is "its under investigation" and that lots of people receive exemptions from hotel quarantining, and they should have an answer within days as to the origin of the outbreak, yet to be produced. The reporter was specific with his questions, US returning traveller, 1st December, avoiding hotel quarantining with a ministerial exemption. Both Berejiklian and Hazzard seemed put out by the line of questioning, showing signs of angary indignation as a defence. Its time they came clean and released the facts for all to see, and not sweep it under the carpet as they might do.

Hi Paul

This link from The Guardian, 19 Dec 2020, is useful yet inconclusive:

"Coronavirus NSW: what we know about the source of Sydney's northern beaches Covid cluster"

at http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/dec/18/coronavirus-nsw-what-we-know-about-the-source-of-sydney-northern-beaches-covid-cluster

Cheers

Pete

Thanks Pete,

The pertinent point is "quarantine" as applied to this returned traveller. Was it hotel quarantining, or the more open to abuse self isolation. If this traveller had returned December 1st from the US, how was it 38 cases were being reported by 18th December from around locations in Avalon. The RT would have had to return a negative test to the virus on the 11th or 12th. If the person was in 14 days hotel quarantine then the time frame doesn't fit. If the person was the cause, and was in home isolation then it begs the question, why home isolation, and who gave the authority, and did the person self isolate as required. They were quick to name a couple of ditzy chicks who travelled from Qld to Vic and NSW, but this person is a mystery. As I asked, a friend of the Liberal Party?

I have seen the light! You genii have convinced me!
Lets reduce all public salaries to a maximum of $800 a week. This will apply to all employees of media companies too. Doctors, nurses everyone.
Complete shutdown and we all live off dried food or what is in our freezers. Troops on the street arresting anyone found abroad. Politicians isolated in parliaments and troops guarding all hospitals. All media banned from any advertising and only two hours news broadcasting per day.
Vaccination by traveling squads visiting our homes. This will stop the progress of this terrible disease and Save our Souls! Obviously we will also have to accept reduced power and gas for the duration but at least we will all be in this together! Who is with me?

Paul,

Been smoking recreational herbs again? We can always count on you for a wacky conspiracy theory.

It looks like Victorian Labor's incompetence has been exposed again. When the Victorian outbreak spread to NSW it was squashed quickly without the need for a new lockdown, yet Vic Labor seems unable to do the same.

Shonkyminister, are you in the middle of the Liberal Party Cluster down there in NSW? I would take you to be a Turramurra snob, not wishing to leave the leafy North Shore. The Hazard strikes again!

It will be interesting to see how determined a Liberal premier is to squash this compared to a Labour one. I'm hoping she steps up but like with Andrews there will be a lot of pressure not to go as hard as she should. However at least she will not have the Murdoch press baying for her blood like they did with Andrews.

Hi Steele,

The big test will be the Cricket at the SCG starting Thursday. Allowing for 20,000 spectators with mask wearing optional, a Trump like rally, the best advice is this event could be a super spreader under those conditions. Much pressure on Berejiklian to make sure this nonsense goes ahead. The Liberal Party old boys sitting in the members stand, I do believe I can see shonkyminister sitting way up in the back row, the old farts say; "It just not cricket if there was no New Years test at the SCG, jolly bad show and all that! I say; "They can take their bat and ball and shove it where the sun don't shine."

Poor old Bug Ridden Boris in the UK, just can't get it right. With the pandemic tearing the country apart, the good news was the Pfizer vaccine got rolled out earlier than expected, and the Oxford one is coming on line this week. Unfortunately with the virus at record levels and limited supply of vaccine the government has decided to delay the second jab to 12 weeks after the first, the testing was with 3 weeks between injections. this may result in limited or no immunity for many.

The Swedish government has finally made a call on itself, passing emergency legislation giving it the power to enforce lockdowns and other directive to try and curtail the spread of the virus in Sweden and the ever increasing death toll.

Here in Brisbane, the Palaszczuk government has placed a sharp 3 day lockdown on the city. This follows the detection of a covid-19 case, the person was a cleaner at a hotel quarantine location and contracted the more contagious Bug Ridden Boris Pommy virus. Smart action again by Palaszczuk, lets hope it pays off. Of course the 'let it rip' brigade from the LNP couldn't say a word. When Morrison and his conservative cohorts failed to act, Dan Andrews has got the national cabinet to agree to more stringent controls in hotel quarantine and also with airline crews flying into Australia.

Paul the hunchback was the cause of ninety per cent of all Covid deaths in Australia. He and his corrupt ALP organised for a failed Kings Cross bouncer to get the contract worth 30 million to guard the Melbourne hotels that caused the outbreak and deaths. No MSM investigation and the only blow back was from Peta Credlin who has now had her leash shortened to stop any investigation.
Blame Chinese Andrews and all his media lickspittles for most of the deaths of lots of old people.
Not sure whether to laugh or cry?

Pauliar,

I have never been a liberal party member nor ever watched a test match live or on TV for more than a few minutes. However, I might have seen you and other greens huddled around watching a kiddie flick.

As for Pandemic Dan setting the standards for quarantine, that is the joke of the century like Stalin setting the standards for human rights.

Nearly 90% of Aussie covid deaths were in Victoria due to Labor incompetence.

Dear JBowyer,

All I can do is repeat my earlier post.

Dear JBowyer,

Lol. You have just gone and done it again.

You can either down play Covid to the ordinary flu with no excess deaths or you can blame Daniel Andrews for causing hundreds of deaths, but you can't have it both. Make up your mind mate because right now you are looking incredibly stupid.

SR last two flu pandemics cost more lives than Covid to date. The hunchback's organisation of arranging for someone who had sent two previous security firms to the wall to get $30 million dollar contract which effectively caused 90% of all Australian deaths. This is covered up by MSM and you leftists but in the fullness of time the corruption will be exposed!
What are you thinking? Oooohhh I cannot remember?

JB, I'm not a fan of Labor's, although I find them generally a better choice that the alternate mob. The two big questions still not fully answered concerning the handling of the pandemic in Australia. Firstly the Melbourne hotel quarantine fiasco and Vic Labor's roll in it all. Secondly, the 'Ruby Princess' disaster in NSW and what part the NSW Health minister Brad Hazzard played in that.

Back on the 19th of December in a post directed to Graham I said:
“This thing is off and running and despite bans on gatherings of more than 8 people and other measures Sweden's limp-wristed approach will see its likely death toll over 10,000 by the end of January unless it steps up considerably.”
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9343#314989

Back then the toll was 8,690.

It is now 11,591 and we are not quite at the end of January. So my predictions have unfortunately been significantly surpassed.

I also said “However I am confident that Denmark will get on top of this before Sweden and within a couple of weeks it will have an infection rate half that.”

The infection rate at the time in Denmark was 611. It is now 121. It managed an 80% drop compared to Sweden's 54%.

Lockdowns do work and we should be grateful we have State leadership which has served us so well during this pandemic.

Unfortunately our Federal leader was in July saying things like: “the best protection against the virus is to live with the virus, to live alongside the virus and to open up your economy”.

Things could have been a lot worse.

SR the Wuhan virus has mostly killed very old people. Death toll in Africa is small because they just do not have an aged population. The real destruction has been to economies and the real tragedy is how our filthy politicians have now worked out we can be controlled better by fear. One idiot medico was gloating yesterday saying no travel this summer, probably no travel Christmas and maybe no travel at all?
At 73 I have limited enjoyable time so fiercely resent this no holiday policy to pander to the greens.
I want the TRUTH! I know less people died in UK 2019/20 than 2017/18 and I bet that is the case in Australia but now with wholesale corruption we will not be told.

Dear Jbowyer,

You write: “I know less people died in UK 2019/20 than 2017/18”
No you don't because they bloody well didn't you wilfully ignorant fool.

I don't know how many times I have shoved this under you nose and something within your Trump poisoned pea brain just doesn't allow you to process it for some reason.
http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/956703/Weekly_report_mortality__W4.pdf

It is hard enough having a coherent conversation with someone with at least some grasp of reality but blokes like you are way off the deep end.

In the words of Colonel Jessup "You want the truth?" "You can't handle the truth!"
http://youtu.be/9FnO3igOkOk?t=40

SR I read that bilge you suggested. Just blatant dishonesty! These people were all paid whilst small businesses were driven through the floor and fellow citizens suffered home detention. It is idiots like you who delight in suffering imprisonment, oppressing your fellows and love your communist Chinese repressive mates.
Idiot yourself! You would not know the truth if it bit you on the backside! It does give me joy that Quislings like you will be first against the wall as everyone hates a back-stabber!

Hi Steele,

What do you think of Bug Ridden Boris in the UK, with over 100,000 deaths from the virus, many being preventable if the government had followed the medical advice. The Tory leadership took the conservative approach and the result was a disaster. Johnson has apologised for the dead, and claimed to have taken reasonability, but there is no offer of resignation.

Dear GrahamY,

You put “the second peak passed in Sweden before anyone panicked and put lockdowns in place".

Given the second wave has now taken more lives than the first and there are clear signs of a third wave about to start I'm wondering what message you might have taken from this grim toll?