Today (6 August) is the 75th anniversary of the dropping of the first atomic bomb (nick-named 'Little Boy') in warfare. The bomb exploded over the Japanese city of Hiroshima at 8:16am, with an initial death toll of around 70000 people and a similar number injured to varying degrees.

The bomb had originally begun development in response to Nazi attempts to similarly develop an atomic device. While the German efforts failed, the US/British effort, led by some of the greatest minds of the age, solved the myriad problems around converting the atom to energy.

Although the US strategists assumed that the bomb would cause an immediate surrender, within days they were reading decoded messages showing that the Japanese high command had decided to continue to fight. But the combination of the Soviet Union declaring war and the second bombing of Nagasaki forced a surrender.

It is estimated that, had the war continued, it would have resulted in 100000 further allied deaths and 1-2 million Japanese deaths. Thus it can be argued that, despite the significant death toll, the bombs actually saved lives. Still the argument will probably go on forever over the merits of the bombing.

Mans inhumanity to man. Some tell us that atomic weapons are only a deterrent, never to be used. Hiroshima, and the later attack on Nagasaki gives the lie to that falsehood.

Nothing in history has saved more lives than the dropping of those 2 bombs. The idea that the defeating of the Japanese on home soil could have been achieved with as few as 100,000 loses to the attacking force is kidding themselves.

Anyone with any knowledge of the death toll among Japanese citizens on Okinawa, particularly the suicide rate would know an estimate of 1 to 2 million civilian casualties among the civilian population of Japan is an underestimate by an order of magnitude at least.

Phil,

What about penicillin?

I would have thought that penicillin would go down in history as a bigger saver of lives than the A-bombs of 1945.

Well, the second bomb certainly proved to be a deterrent and, horrible though the strikes were for the Japanese, it produced an excellent result for the Free World. It is fortunate that we had people prepared to make tough decisions then; the sort of people we do not have these days, I fear. We are now stuck with gutless wonders not prepared to defend us. The Chinese Communist Party is aware of this.

ttbn,

You wrote: "We are now stuck with gutless wonders not prepared to defend us."

Something tells me you meant to write "We are now stuck with gutless wonders not prepared to defend ME."

The destruction caused by those bombs was horrific
beyond description and Hiroshima should always be
in the minds of policy makers to prevent nighmares
like that happening again. But lets be clear in the
context of 1945 - using the atomic bombs saved
lives - millions of them.

WWII in the Pacific was particularly savage. The Japanese
believed in death before dishonour and surrender was
considered dishonour. As an reputable historian will testify
- the Japanese were not about to surrender. Not under any terms
that would be acceptable to the West.

War is horrible. In war, the best way to lessen the suffering
is to end the war quickly. The atomic bombs dropped on
August 6 and 9 1945 quickly brought WWII to an end saving
many millions of lives.

In the last days of the War, Japan had more than half its armies in China, busy slaughtering civilians. An estimated fifty million Chinese died during that War - which, for China, started back in 1931.

In her biography of General Joe Stilwell, commander of allied troops in Burma, she records that he estimated, in mid-1945, that the War would go on for another two or three years, even after 1948. That's what he planned for - a slow re-occupation of China from its south-west, up and over the Himalayas. In other words, a hell of a hard slog, with many casualties.

It may not worry racist half-wits like Misop but it is possible that another ten million Chinese civilians would have been killed in that intervening time.

I've struggled with the rights and wrongs of this dilemma for decades, but I think that the nuclear bombing of Japanese cities may have saved millions of innocent lives. Not just in China, but in Indochina, Burma (especially in Arakan), the Philippines and Indonesia.

But I hope these dreadful weapons are never used again.

Joe

Oops, that was Barbara Tuchmann who wrote Stilwell's biography.

The bombs saved China & the west another way as well.

Don't forget the then extremely well armed Russia had just entered the war against Japan in Manchuria. They would have killed millions more Chinese while sweeping up the Japs.

They would have occupied all of China, & been as hard to shift as they were in Europe. They would have been even more belligerent there as they were in Berlin, making the world a very different place.

The only thing that stopped them when Japan surrendered was "the BOMB". So the demonstration to the Japs stopped WW11, & stopped another from starting probably between the west & Russia in China & Europe.

Give thanks that the bomb was dropped when it was.

Phil,

What about the penicillin?

I have no idea of how many penicillin may have saved, it & the development of others that followed it may have saved more, but penicillin has had it's time, & many of those developed since then are also past their use by date.

I doubt the "mutually assured destruction" policy would have done such a great job of keeping war to small skirmishes if those 2 demonstrations had not been made. That being the case, all the penicillin that could have been produced would not have saved the billions that an east west war would have killed.

The "mutually assured destruction" policy is still saving millions, & will continue to do so, as long as we deny nuclear arms to madmen like the Ayatollahs.

Penicillin is very effective in saving the lives of useful people but ineffective in preventing useless or rather stupid people from breeding !

Good point, Nasbeen. The Allies had agreed in Europe that Russia could enter the War in the East but only from three months after the official end of the War in Europe, VE-Day, May 8, 1945.

So the Russians were scheduled to enter the War against Japan on August 8, 1945. Which they did, sweeping through Manchuria into Korea in a day or so, occupying Sinkiang and declaring it a People's republic of Eastern Turkestan, or some such. The Chinese Communists didn't go much on that, so it didn't last.

Brutal times.

And yes, penicillin also saved many lives, millions, tens of millions, including - I'm sure - some of the posters here.

Joe

"mutually assured destruction" policy
Hasbeen,
Pity, the economic policy makers aren't thinking along those lines !

"The Allies had agreed in Europe that Russia could enter the War in the East but only from three months after the official end of the War in Europe, VE-Day, May 8, 1945."

Not quite.

The US was anxious that the Soviets enter the war against Japan ASAP so as to put pressure on the Japanese army in Mongolia and Korea and not allow them to return to the Japanese mainland. Equally they thought additional pressure would encourage early surrender.

Stalin agreed to declare war on Japan WITHIN three months, not after three months. They could have, and were encouraged to, declare war much earlier than 8/8/45.

Its likely that the Soviets entered the war after the first bomb was dropped because they could see the writing on the wall and wanted to grab as much territory as possible before Japan surrendered.

MAD philosophy is aptly named for some of its supporters on OLO. Now the Crazy Donald is trying to whip up more trouble in the Middle East by claiming, without the slightest evidence, that the terrible explosion in Beirut was an "attack". Attack by whom Donald, the Chinese, Joe Biden and his Democrats, pray tell who Donald? How dangerous to world peace is this guy?

Mhaze,

Thanks for that. I'm just a bit sceptical about Russian motives.

Joe

Poor Paul, as fact deprived as ever, thinks Trump calling the Beirut fire an attack is "without the slightest evidence".

As usual the fact-deprived Paul doesn't bother to look into it to become less fact-deprived. He just shoots from the hip and will now run for cover.

The fact is Trump was repeating what he'd been told by the US military - that there was a good chance this was an attack. By whom? Well take your pick - there's plenty of crazies in the region.

Oh just to fill in some of the gaps in the fact-deprived Paul's 'knowledge', there were also fires in two other food storage sites in the M-E within the last few days. Coincidence? Perhaps. But....

Quite how Trump saying it could be an attack is "dangerous to world peace" is really something that only someone so blinded by TDS would understand.

As I pointed out to Foxy t'other day, Trump currently is the first president since Hoover to have not started any new war or invaded a new country. The most peaceful of presidents.

But the fact-deprived may not recognise that

the terrible explosion in Beirut was an "attack". Attack by whom Donald,
Paul1405,
It was an attack by people of your mentality, selfish, incompetent bureaudroids etc. in Beirut Council !

Only an imbecile would be unable to see that the MAD philosophy has been completely successful for over 70 years, in which time Communism & socialism have failed numerous times, where ever they have been tried.

Of the 2 big experiments, USSR had to be broken up leaving just Russia to develop a capitalist economy after the total failure of central planning.

China saw the collapse of the USSR & switched to the capitalist model for the economy, if not it's political system, before total collapse.

Interestingly it is those that deny the necessity & ongoing good fallout of Little Boy that would plunge us into the catastrophe of central planning, despite all the evidence of the complete failure the system brings.

Hassy, I understand your love for atomic bombs.

mhaze, are you claiming the aggressive warmongers at the Pentagon wouldn't lie and call it an attack. The lies of US General warmongers are legendary.

"Three US Defense (that's a sick joke) Department officials told CNN that as of Tuesday night there was no indication that the massive explosion that rocked Beirut on Tuesday were an "attack," contradicting an earlier claim from President Donald Trump." The Donald is well known for lying.

Indy, is Beirut where you originally came from, no government la grasse there for you, so Australia here I come. Didn't you claim you haven't worked a day since 1972? The dole, then the aged pension, not bad for some, but hard on us taxpayers.

Paul,

Ya bozo. Trump is just saying it might be an attack...

"Trump added: “Some people think it was an attack and some people think it wasn’t. In any event, it was a terrible event and a lot of people were killed and a tremendous number of people were badly wounded, injured. And we’re standing with that country.

“But whether it was a bomb intentionally set off – it ended up being a bomb. But no, I’ve heard it both ways. It could have been an accident and it could have also been something that was very offensive.”

He'd been so advised by some of his military advisers. How you turn him saying it could have been this or it could have been that into a lie, is beyond my or medical sciences understanding.

And how saying it might be an attack is somehow "dangerous to world peace" is bizarre in the extreme. Especially when we're talking about someone as peace-loving as the Donald. :)

Hasbeen,

"Interestingly it is those that deny the necessity & ongoing good fallout of Little Boy..."

My impression is that history is now coming down on the side of the use of the bombs as being justified and largely beneficial to all concerned - American, Japanese, Chinese et al.

My feeling is that back in the 80s/90s people and historians were much more hostile to the event. But as with most things, time removes the partisan element and truth and rationality comes to the fore.

but hard on us taxpayers.
Paul1405,
Obviously not hard enough for the likes of you !

mhaze, It should be simple enough for you, or The Donald, to name these "Generals", or are they a figment of The Donald's fertile imagination. I suggest that The Donald is lying, given his propensity to lie at every opportunity trying to save his worthless hide as he does so often.

Wow!

Paul you and Donald have a lot in common.

Foxy is on the money, an invasion of mainland Japan would have cost the Americans more casualties than the entire pacific war and would have killed between 4 and 10 million Japanese. That the 2 bombs spurred Japan into surrendering saved millions of people.

What is often also forgotten is that first day of firebombing on Tokyo killed as many people as the Hiroshima bomb. That nuclear weapons are an effective deterrent against attack is also undeniable but is being undermined by China's "Salami" tactics.

Here we have those justifying the use of atomic weapons with their hypothetical claim that the killing of thousands of innocent people with such weapons saved the lives of thousands of others. The evidence for this claim only exists in their minds. When the third and subsequent bombs are dropped there will be those who will also justify there use as being necessary, and most likely life saving as well.

All that MAD encourages is nuclear proliferation. If you accept MAD as legitimate then countries like North Korea and Iran have every right to develop nuclear weapons as a deterrent to unfriendly aggressor nations. Australia with a demonstrated sycophantic relationship with super power America is less safe, as we become a heightened secondary target for nuclear attack. Another danger is localised nuclear war between lesser powers such as India and Pakistan, where one or the other believes a preemptive strike gives them a military advantage when losing a conventional war. The placement of nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists agents by an accepted holder such as Israel is possible to avoid responsibility for their use. Then there is the accidental or irrational use of atomic weapons to be considered as well. Every country with atomic weapons has a madman with his finger on the button!

Here we have those justifying the use of atomic weapons with their hypothetical claim that the killing of thousands of innocent people with such weapons saved the lives of thousands of others.
Paul1405,
How about your hypothetical claims that it wasn't so ? There are people anywhere & yes, here too in very Australia who love nothing more than causing conflict. Why, you're one of them ! Then there are normal people who simply want to protect what they gained via their effort. Some erroneously believe inheritance or something that nature provided is included in that. It is not from a moral perspective !
So, when you get whole Nations forcing other Nations to take defensive action, prevention is better than cure & even more economic in the long run. Until of course, a new generation of people with no experience to lean on start making the same moves again ! Like you do !

A cynic might say the United States used the Atomic bomb(s) for no other reason than to test their effects on human being. The fact they used a second device, an Implosion-type weapon, on Nagasaki, 9th August 1945 supports that argument.

Indy, while ever there are people like you in the world, there will be war. Why do you consider yourself a "normal" person?

Why do you consider yourself a "normal" person?
Paul1405,
Because I try to get people to see the folly of wilful confrontation ! Shame you don't want to see it !
Defence is something else altogether ! Tearing at scabs is another, it causes more wounding & takes longer to heal !
Prevention has been proven to be better than cure ! Using racism as an unwarranted excuse is one of the most immoral tactics. Biting the hand that feeds you is also immoral.
Supporting division in society is simply stupid ! That's why normal people are trying to make people like you see but to no avail ! It's against your mentality !

Wow...

"Lebanese President Michel Aoun said Friday there are two possible causes of Tuesday’s explosion that killed nearly 150 people – either negligence or “external intervention” by a missile or bomb."

Which of course means, according the the fractured 'logic' (for want of a better word) employed by Paul, that he's "dangerous to world peace"....or something equally moronic.

OTOH maybe people who aren't so contorted by TDS are just keeping an open mind pending all the evidence.

Mhaze,

Perhaps the difference between Michel Aoun's and Trumpf's opinion is that, given his circumstances, Aoun could be forgiven for thinking that Lebanon might have been attacked, and by Israel: who else would do that ? I'm sure that Israel would understand his jumping to that conclusion as just one possibility. In fact, I'll bet Netanyahu and Aoun had a phone conversation just to reassure each other. All sorted.

But for Trumpf to vaguely suggest that maybe, who knows, it could well have been a bomb, begs the question: who ? Of course, Israel comes to mind. Gosh, thanks, Donald. I'm sure Netanyahu was on the blower pretty quick to 'discuss' that suggestion with the political genius.

My god, what a moron.

Joe

mhaze, by saying that, maybe President Aoun is trying to avoid a town lynching...... of himself that is!

Like Trump, you are yet to name the unnamed "Generals" who told Trump it was an attack. Trump will often attribute his own lying nonsense to unnamed sources.

Oh so now the Lebanese president is also lying? Anyone who disagrees with Paul's assertions is lying, apparently.

It seems that anyone who wants to wait for actual evidence is lying in Paul-land.

Oh and per LM, if they're not lying that it was the Jews wot dun it. Because...who else? Lebanon is the epi-centre of every rogue regime and terrorist group on the planet, but blame the Jews.

What, are you characters just working your way down the list of people-to-blame when I don't know what the hell's going on?

Who's number three on the list? 1. Trump;2. The Jews; 3. ? oh the Catholic clergy of course. Well after all, no sooner has Pell been released by the secret cabal on the High Court than Beirut gets demolished. Join the dots....QED.

You guys are bonkers.

Mhaze,

I'm certainly not suggesting in any way that Israel has been involved - but I am suggesting that the damage that a half-wit like Trump can do by vaguely hinting at that, even as just a possibility, makes a lot of unnecessary and unwarranted trouble or Israel.

If anything, Israel is probably providing more aid and comfort to Lebanon than almost any other country. I suspect that Netanyahu and Trump have had words.

Joe

Paul,

I generally find your posts devoid of facts and logic and these last couple are no exception.

Firstly, that the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan precipitated the surrender is well documented, and the losses on both sides due to a land invasion is far from "hypothetical" given the heavily fortified southern Japan and the consequences of prolonged conventional bombing and starvation that would have occured as the alternative. That millions of lives were saved is clear.

Secondly, only an idiot not a cynic would entertain the opinion that the bombs were dropped to test them on humans as the effects of heat were well known even then. Even if so the second bomb actually disproves it as it would be completely redundant.

Finally, while MAD has clearly played a part in preventing major conflicts between super powers, letting tin pot dictator led states like the Iran and North Korean who don't give a crap about their civilians get nukes actually makes the risks greater.

For example as Iran is developing nukes, now its regional rival Saudi is doing so too.

shadowminister, welcome to the forum. We had a loony with a similar nick to yours, probely has forgot his password which me thinks was bozo. Tut tut the lad did have a short attention span, and was always forgetting things.

"letting tin pot dictator led states like the Iran and North Korean who don't give a crap about their civilians get nukes actually makes the risks greater." Include Trumps America in that and I'll agree.

mhaze, who said Aoun was lying, he got it from Trump, who got it from some unnamed general who was lying. Would Aoun lie to save his skin, me thinks not. Would Trump lie to save his skin, of course he would!

Paul,

We used to have a sociopathic liar also called Paul. Oh, wait!

No numbskull, I was trying to tweak my handle after 13 years, but it appears to have broken the history link with my previous handle even though I have the same login details.

GY is trying to fix this. In the meanwhile, you while have put up with facts being used against you.

"I was trying to tweak my handle" Stop that the Pope said you'll go blind! If you wanted a new nick how about 'Shonky Minister' or 'Sinister Minster', they suit you. Why not check with a couple of your favourite fools, Beat Up Bolt or Archy Pell, they might have something for you.

I still love yah, no matter who you are!

Paul,

Maybe you should freshen up your handle, I suggest Green whackjob, Lies R us, etc. Perhaps you should consult the fruitcakes from your Eastern Bloc such as disease Rhiannon or some of your greenie anti-vaxxers.

Shadow, there is no second prize!

Paul,

There is no prize at all.

How do you feel about the port being controlled by Hezbollah?

Poor old shadow, he's never had an original thought in his life, got to try a feeble attempt at mimicry, best he can do, no originality what so ever. "There is no second prize!" is a saying, when someone as smart as me directs a witty crack at a dumbo such as you, and you come back with something that falls as "flat as a tack" another saying, then I put you down by reply; "There is no second prize!".

Comprendre....probely not, its all that Trump devotion of yours, your brain is now completely pickled, and it wasn't much to start with in the first place.

Paul,

You are a feeble-minded troll. If this is the best you can do then the greens are really the turgid twats that they appear to be.

I guess that yet another green uncovered as a paedophile is what is burning your backside. Face it, the greens are a collection of vacuous virtue signallers and anti-vaxxers etc that fill the dark corners of society.

Getting steamed up are we old sod, losing self control, lashing out at others, those horrible Greens. You should direct your vitriol towards me, rather than thrashing about indiscriminately like an enraged bull in a pen. Remember me old sod, self control is a virtue, something you lack.

My opening words to you were "shadowminister, welcome to the forum" which seemed to upset you, why is that so? .

Paul,

Just another pathetic attempt to troll me, what else could I expect from a dull-witted pedogreen.