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The Forum > General Discussion > Has Sweden's COVID response lost its allure as a poster child of the right yet?

Has Sweden's COVID response lost its allure as a poster child of the right yet?

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Graham Young wrote in mid April;

"There's a lot of nonsense being talked about Sweden. On a per capita basis its death rate compares well with other European and North American countries https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&country=SWE+USA+GBR+CHE+ITA+ESP+DEU+FRA+CAN+NOR"

This is what the graph looked like then;

http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&time=2020-01-31..2020-04-13&country=CAN~FRA~DEU~ITA~NOR~ESP~SWE~CHE~GBR~USA

This is how it looks now;

http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&country=CAN~FRA~DEU~ITA~NOR~ESP~SWE~CHE~GBR~USA

Sweden's deaths per million have gone from under 100 to over 500. It has outstripped countries like France and is on track to pass even Italy within the next month.

I am hearing a lot less about how the Swedes have managed their response so much more responsibly more than the rest of the world.

But I'm wondering if attitudes on the right have changed on this. Have those who touted Sweden's performance changed their minds or are they still wedded to it?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 20 June 2020 9:27:39 AM
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Dear Steele,

So sad regarding Sweden.

And one can look back in hindsight and think -
"If only".

Sweden took a relaxed approach towards covid-19,
choosing not to institute strict lockdown policies.
With no mandatory quarantine in place their museums,
bars, restaurants, gyms, malls, schools, neighclubs
remained open.

This has had disastrous results with more than 4,500
deaths being reported by June 4.

Anders Tegnell, the state epidemiologist of the
Public Health Agency of Sweden who led Sweden's
controversial COVID-19 response which did not involve
a strict lockdown now says that the country should have
done more to stop the spread of the virus, according to
news reports.

"If we were to run into the same disease knowing
exactly what we know about it today I think we would
end up doing something in between what Sweden did and
what the rest of the world has done".

So stated Anders Tegnell on June 3, according to Reuters.

Perhaps now stricter measures will be implemented to
prevent further deaths from happening. Apparently many
of the deaths have hit people in aged-care facilities.
The most vulnerable.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 June 2020 3:02:28 PM
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Sweden's model obviously appealed greatly to the democrats/greens and labour as shown by their tantrum throwing protests on the streets over the last couple of weeks.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 20 June 2020 3:31:25 PM
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runner,

And here the rest of us thought the demonstrations were
in response to the death of Afro-American George
Floyd's murder in Minneapolis May 25th.

Seeing as you raised the topic of the Democrats and
Greens in the US. Here's a joke for you:

Q: How do you starve a right-wing Christian in America?

A: Hide their money in their Bible.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 June 2020 3:49:43 PM
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Thanks to Morrison's strict crack-down on the virus, Australia lost far fewer people than was expected. By contrast, Sweden with barely half our population, has lost fifty times as many people. And thanks to Morrison, we can get back to economic activity far more quickly than Sweden.

The Swedish approach seemed to depend on the efficacy of creating some sort of herd immunity, and the devil take the hindmost, the afflicted, the elderly. But if re-infection is possible, if immunity to the virus wears off after barely a year, then all that lack of effort has been pointless.

2.2 million people have been infected in the US and 120,000 have died, so far. Not a great deal of herd immunity there. However the US experience has effectively demonstrated that the virus is real, it's not 'fake' news. And as it spreads out into the more hick areas, those harsh realities will hit more people before they succumb.

And it seems that New York may have to close its borders to infected areas such as Florida.

Long way to go yet.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Saturday, 20 June 2020 5:03:02 PM
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Steele, don't expect a response from the forums 'Usual Suspects' anytime soon, they are all over in Tulsa Oklahoma for the Dangerous Doctor Donald Rock N' Roll show. Runner, why are you not there? They have a special reserved area for the miserable happy clappers such as you. I understand the messiah in the form of Bug Ridden Boris from England is going to make a special guest appearance to tell the True Believers how he and DDD have got the virus under control with a dose of Pine-O-Clean and a torch up your arse!
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 20 June 2020 5:48:11 PM
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Paul,

Gosh, with tens of thousands of people crowded into a stadium, all shouting their heads off, for hours at a time, I incredibly sincerely hope that absolutely none of them is carrying the virus, and spraying it all over their fellow-crowd members before returning back home all over hick USA. Or - perish the thought - wafting Corona breezes over Trump.

No, he'll be okay, he shines a strong light up his arse every night, sips disinfectant and takes dexihexibexichoroquine. If only every Trump supporter did the same ....

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Saturday, 20 June 2020 6:32:58 PM
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I don't think that Sweden's COVID response will
have any affect especially - on American's right-wing
Trump supporters.

I watched the news this evening and many who appeared
on camera prior to tomorrow's rally in Oklahoma -
were not phased by the virus at all. They don't believe
it will do them any harm.

It appears that they firmly believe that the virus
will have no effect on them. They are buying what
their President is selling, hook, line, and sinker.

The general feeling that there's no other world
but America - for some, rings true even today. The
rest of the world for some of them simply does not
exist. They just want their President to keep his
promise and "Make America Great Again,"and if that
means losing a few people - well what the heck, so be it.

I'm so glad I live in Australia.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 June 2020 7:57:20 PM
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American media tells us that the rally in Tulsa,
Oklahoma is going to be the first of President
Trump's signature rallies during the coronavirus
pandemic.

The Oklahoma Supreme Court on Friday rejected a
request to require everyone attending Trump's rally
in a 19,000 seat arena to wear a face mask and
maintain social distancing inside to guard against
the spread of the virus.

Crowds of 100,000 or more, are expected in the area
around the rally.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 June 2020 8:15:21 PM
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Steele, it always has to be about ideology to you. I make observations based on facts and draw conclusions from them. The letter that I am a signatory to, asking for the governments to open up now is signed by people with political ideologies across the spectrum. But whatever their ideology they're not caught up with the current mania, which you share, to try to make political advantage out of everything. It's a very divisive way that you think.

Sweden has a greater total number of deaths per capita from COVID than most other countries, although it is still behind the USA. However, that is only one part of the equation.

The latest mortality figures show that total deaths are now back to average as the infection has run through the community. https://www.facebook.com/OzInstProgress/photos/a.580797338712492/3034480913344110/?type=3&theater&notif_t=page_post_reaction&notif_id=1592646824173525. I suspect it will be below average for the rest of the year, but we'll see,as there is a substitution effect with people dying of COVID who were going to die of something else.

Then on top of that they have done less damage to the able-bodied because they haven't tanked their economy and they haven't taken agency away from people.

They are also well on the way to herd immunity, so the panic that has now hit Victoria, with Andrews closing the economy down again, will not happen in Sweden. We are only part of the way through this, and trying to close the books for some fancied political advantage is not to your credit.
Posted by GrahamY, Saturday, 20 June 2020 10:02:18 PM
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Dear Graham Y,

In my opinion it has been about ideology to both of us I'm afraid which I think is fine given the nature of this forum.

My question to you though is if in your earlier post you felt Sweden “On a per capita basis its death rate compares well with other European and North American countries” do you at least now accept it compares poorly?

As to closing the books on this I certainly am not. However I would much rather be in NZ's position than Sweden's and suspect the vast majority of Australians would agree.

Dear Foxy,

I understand that those attending the rally are required to sign a waiver saying they will not sue the campaign if they contract the virus.

Strange days indeed
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 21 June 2020 12:17:20 AM
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Let's face it, opinions and stating the obvious aside, this pandemic cannot be stopped, social distancing or not.
Whether you isolate or social distance today or tomorrow, the virus is ever present in those who are a distributor of it or can physically transmit it.
We are only "holding our breath" and prolonging the spread of the virus.
If there are those amongst us who are vulnerable, they will succumb, even with the precautions in place, but it will eventually catch up with them.
It is possible that countries like Sweden, "bit the bullet" and decided to get the dying out of the way quickly and sooner rather than prolong it over a longer period of time and in doing so disrupt and disenfranchise their economy and the rest of those not affected by the virus.
The only reason I can think of for socially distancing and isolating people, is to protect the vulnerable while we wait for a vaccine.
The economic cost has been almost, not quite as bad, as losing a life, as people are hurting due to massive changes in lifestyle, and I don't mean just the loss of their jobs, although in this modern world, unfortunately, your job dictates your lifestyle.
So it really all comes down to how soon will a vaccine be available.
I believe, only then can we expect to stop the virus/deaths and 'get back on that horse' again, to begin the arduous and difficult task for some, to rebuild, and others, to try to carry on from where they left off.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 21 June 2020 8:01:11 AM
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It's hugely unfair to call out Sweden, in all fairness it should be called Little Africa !
Only then make those figures sense !
It'll be found that in all countries where COVID-19 is getting a foothold, Africans abound.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 21 June 2020 8:28:22 AM
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Graham,

Given that re-infection may be a distinct possibility, that antibodies protect the immune system for only a relatively short time, is it possible that the notion of herd immunity is a crock ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 21 June 2020 8:55:23 AM
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Dear Steele,

I for one am very grateful to our government for taking
the precautions that it has. The lock-downs and social
distancing seems to have worked as has the banning of
overseas travel and the isolation of people coming from
overseas. The low rates of infection and deaths speak
for themselves. It could have been very bad for this
country. It hasn't been Thanks to the actions taken
by our government.

Not doing anything would have been an irrational option.
And ignoring the advice of our scientists and medical
experts would have resulted in dire consequences as we
can see from what's happening not only in Sweden, but
Europe in general, and in the US.

We shall come out of this much better than anyone else
and we can Thank our government for that.

As I stated previously - I'm so glad that I live in
Australia.

We will survive this - if our government continues to
take the sensible approach that it has thus far.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 21 June 2020 10:58:57 AM
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Joe, the possibility of reinfection is very very remote.
If you look at the more familiar type of coronavirus (the common cold) you'll see that nobody get the same strain twice.

____________________________________________________________________________________
ALTRAV
>Let's face it, opinions and stating the obvious aside, this pandemic cannot be stopped, social distancing or not.

I disagree. The two previous serious coronavirus outbreaks (SARS and MERS) were stopped.

The big difference with COVID19 is that people become infectious before showing symptoms. And that means we have to rely on testing if we're going to stop it.
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 21 June 2020 11:13:56 AM
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Aidan,

Testing people especially those coming from overseas
is crucial. As we saw what happened with the cruise
ship - the Ruby Princess. We can't just stop these
precautionary procedures in the interest of monetary
gain. Saving lives should be our priority.

What's the point of having wealth if people are
dying around you?
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 21 June 2020 11:29:55 AM
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Aidan,

So ....... if I get a cold, i won't get another one, not of the same strain ? Strains mutate ? So we get different colds ?

And this Covid-19 can't mutate as fast as the common cold can ?

Gee, let's predicate all of our health policies, our economy, our society, on that principle.

i.e. let's hope like hell.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 21 June 2020 12:37:17 PM
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Aidan, the difference with Covid 19 is that we don't have a vaccine yet.
There is no question about it spreading, it's just that this one is much more aggressive and there is nothing to stop it right now, where-as the ones you mentioned may have a different transmission regime, this one is proving to be far more elusive and we don't have a "magic bullet" yet, so until we do no end of distancing or isolation is going to help, because when you do go out into the community, and you will have to at some point, you will be vulnerable, and dangerously so if you are older.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 21 June 2020 12:40:08 PM
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Altrav,

The point about any virus is that, in order to catch it, it has to be 'out there'. If a country locks down, there is no way that a virus can 'get in' once all cases have been identified and treated, except the odd fly-in from outside. Once Australia and NZ have tightened up their entry restrictions, even on humanitarian grounds, there's no way or a virus to show up. That's hard enough.

Of course, the US, with its two million cases, has lost that battle long ago. It will just have to ride out an unrestricted plague somehow. Long way to go yet.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 21 June 2020 1:32:28 PM
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There is enough to comment on and worry about in Australia without concerning ourselves with other countries.

"But I'm wondering if attitudes on the right have changed on this. Have those who touted Sweden's performance changed their minds or are they still wedded to it?"

The 'right' touting Lefto Sweden? I don't think so.

The only thing about other countries we need to concern ourselves with is keeping their citizens away from our country, something the Morrison government was too weak and indecisive to do early enough; they blew our island advantage, then wrecked our economy. All the craven gratitude to Saint Scotty will go when the results of his lockdowns and closure of businesses and medical procedures, and the psychological effects of isolation, come to light
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 21 June 2020 6:33:29 PM
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Loudmouth2, as I understand it, even if we lock down and isolate or insulate ourselves from each other, the virus and the risk of catching it, is ever present in those people who are "carriers".
So my point is, that even if they are isolated for months, once those carriers are out and about again, they will infect once more.
Therefore, I wonder if we should be isolating till a vaccine is ready, because to allow people to interact once more, even if only a few, it only takes ONE case and the cycle begins once more.
Now I realise the conundrum, which is that we will suffer financially as the shut down leaves businesses and therefore, people in dire straits, as there will be no money to live off.
On the other hand do we do like Sweden, and others, who have done a very bias assessment risk study and decided, it would seem, that the death of the elderly and infirm, was an economical and practical plus to the country, in that they would be able to keep businesses open, therefore people employed, and the death of the elderly and the infirm was to be seen as a positive, in the belief that sacrificing the life of a few old and sick to save the many lives of the young, viable and healthy, was probably a worthwhile view or decision.
Also, it would all happen so quickly that things would get back to normal sooner.
Macabre, I know, but I have to wonder why any country would keep it's businesses open when the threat of death was so obvious and ever-present.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 21 June 2020 6:55:09 PM
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Joe,
There are about a hundred strains of the common cold. But the mutation rate is very slow - it took MILLENNIA for the virus to mutate enough to produce that many strains. So although it's technically possible that COVID19 could mutate into something that's resistant to COVID19 antibodies yet is still serious, it's not a likely outcome.

Nobody gets the same strain of cold twice... except bone marrow transplant recipients, as their immune systems are destroyed before receiving the transplant. I expect people with weakened immune systems (such as those with AIDS) may also be at some risk of getting a cold strain twice, though I don't have any evidence of that.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Foxy,
Agreed, but I think we should have gone a lot further. IMO as soon as COVID19 was detected in Australia, the government should have spent billions of dollars building testing kit factories, so that we could quickly manufacture enough to test the entire population multiple times. That way we could have quickly eliminated the virus, gone back to (almost completely) normal, and then exported testing kits so other nations could do likewise.

BTW did you hear what Trump said today (or in his timezone, yesterday)? He wants to see LESS testing! I think he may have just committed electoral suicide!

_________________________________________________________________________________

ALTRAV,
>Aidan, the difference with Covid 19 is that we don't have a vaccine yet.
No, that's not the difference. There was no vaccine for SARS or MERS either, but both were stopped with quarantine.

AIUI it's only bacterial diseases where asymptomatic carriers remain infectious for moths or years. Unlike bacteria, viruses can't spread without attacking their hosts, and sooner or later the host's immune system will notice the attack.
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 21 June 2020 11:11:04 PM
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Aidan, I can agree, but my overarching point is that, I do not believe that by isolating, the virus will die off.
Not when it has already happened that someone who was supposed to be clear of the virus, has suddenly got it and has infected others, and now the govt is trying to put out another outbreak.
From what I understand, Covid 19 is a very aggressive virus, and if a vaccine is truly of no use, then why is the world flat out trying to produce one.
Or is it some kind of a con to fool the public into believing there is hope at the end of the tunnel, when there really isn't?
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 June 2020 12:00:04 AM
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Isolation , ie. locking up the healthy can never work completely.

We still have to go to the doctor, chemist, vet, hardware store, the service station, & far too many things to be sure of not contacting a carrier.

Even if we buy our groceries by internet, we still have someone distributing the stuff to the stores, someone picking our groceries, & delivering them. Without testing everyone in this chain very regularly, we don't have real isolation, just a pretense.

China has recently discovered the virus in fish from a certain distribution point. We & Germany have discovered clusters in meat works. There is no certainty that our food is clear. Aidans idea of testing everyone regularly, & logically isolating the infected, rather than the healthy is the only way to really stop the thing.

I doubt there is much chance of developing a really effective vaccine for a mutating virus. Flu vaccines are only moderately successful, & they have been at that for decades.

Incidentally how the hell did someone come up with the crazy idea that our response to this thing is a left/right thing. God some people are so crazy they should be isolated, permanently.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 22 June 2020 12:46:15 AM
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Hasbe3en, that was one of my points, that a seemingly healthy virus free guy suddenly got it and infected others.
So it's still a risk not isolating the people we believe to be virus free, when all of a sudden they present with the virus.
What I asked or maybe speculated was; what if Sweden decided to let the virus run it's course as they felt it was futile trying to contain, let alone stop it completely, and let it take the sick, elderly and most vulnerable, so that it also helped their budget by eliminating one of the bigger drains on the public purse.
As I said, it sounds macabre, but govts are made of just the same people as the community, only sicker and mentally wanting.
I believe it comes down to either you want to ignore the virus, and continue as normal and let it take it's course and the people it affects, thereby keeping the economy going, but the hospitals full, for an unknown period.
Or we isolate and try to prolong the inevitable, but destroy the economy and still destroy a great majority of the population anyway.
The net loss of human life is going to be the same, the only difference will be the economy and the lively-hood of the survivors.
It's like that proverbial 'bully', you can try to avoid him but sooner or later he will find you and you will get whatever he has in store for you, only in this case, it's death.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 June 2020 1:16:13 AM
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SR, Foxy,

SR started this post to try and show that "right wingers" that are calling for economies to be openned are failing compared to the more extreme measures taken by left whinge governments. As an economic conservative, I am quite happy to point out the obvious flaws in his posturing. In my view the control of Covid19 is marathon not a sprint and the virus is going to last far longer than harsh lockdowns.

Firstly, it should be noted that the Swedish economy has actually grown which shows that at least economically their policy has been sound and while the total death rate per capita has climbed, the rate of people dying has slowed. All Sweden's neighbouring countries are looking at drastically reduced economic output.

Secondly, in spite of the drastic lockdowns the virus is still present in every major country and the tolerance for harsh lock downs has evaporated as the resultant economic conditions start to bite. Even in NZ where Comrade Jacinda implemented a massive lockdown and drastically reduced the incidence of Covid, the country's economy is crashing with a -1.6% growth in the first quarter with 1/10 kiwi mortgage payments in arrears small businesses closing everywhere and massive unemployment.

A classic example of the left whinge hubris is the cock up under Chairman Dan whose incompetence and ideological application of lock down waiver on demonstrations has led to a second spike in Covid-19
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 22 June 2020 8:50:28 AM
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Why do you assume that people of the right supported Sweden’s management of COVID? I would have thought the opposite was true. Conservatives are the one who supported strict lock downs, not the socialist left.
Posted by Big Nana, Monday, 22 June 2020 9:00:29 AM
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I cannot believe you bed wetters? You love lock down despite the obvious deleterious effects that will cause thousands of deaths over the next few years or longer. You love social distancing unless it is some demo for literally a two bit chiseller who picked the wrong cop to annoy. And you love the fact state and federal governments are putting us into a horrendous depression and debt. As I am in my early 70's I will not experience the bulk of your stupidity but I will never stop reminding you of it.
One more thing when the truth finally surfaces you will all end up looking stupid and Trump will once again show how he really has his finger on the pulse of the world. History judges us all and Trump will be a beacon for the last few years!
Posted by JBowyer, Monday, 22 June 2020 10:27:46 AM
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Easing restrictions from what our government appears
to be saying is going to be a gradual process.
The government has overseas lessons to consider.

For example the lesson from Singapore is the risk of a
second wave is very, very, real.

Another lesson from the US, UK, and Italy is that once
the virus gets out of control, even if you put in very
strong restrictions, if they're put in too late they
don't work the same way.

We're told that we're lucky that the virus has not
gotten into very many nursing homes. That we haven't
had huge prison-based outbreaks and that the virus has
not impacted many of our more regional towns.

But that does not mean it can't happen in the future.

Experts advise that lifting restrictions slowly and
keeping a close eye on the effects by testing extensively
is the way forward. And of course, doing the basics like
washing our hands regularly, minimising our physical
contact with other people is important. And the last
restrictions that we should expect to see lifted is our
international borders. But that's still a long way off.

Respiratory physician Greg Fox of the Woolcock Institute
of Medical Research who also works at the Royal Prince
Alfred Hospital says that if we're aiming to eradicate of
suppress the virus we need to ensure that it does not
overwhelm the health system. The health system has to be
prepared and ready to cope with any possible surge in the
future.

Australia's been fortunate. We have bought time to be able
to prepare for the pandemic because of the rapid measures
our government has taken. This has allowed our health
systems around the country to prepare additional intensive
care beds, do large-scale testing and implement programs
for community monitoring of people with mild symptoms.

Dr Fox says we are prepared.

We can only hope he's right.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 June 2020 10:53:18 AM
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ALTRAV,
Obviously a vaccine would be of great use if we had it (and I'm baffled as to why you presume I think otherwise). But we don't have one yet, we don't know how long it will take to develop one, and vaccines are not the only way of stopping viruses.

False negatives are certainly a potential problem, but that can be managed with repeated testing.

Of course COVD19 is a very aggressive virus. But so was the original SARS, and quarantine stopped that.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 22 June 2020 12:12:48 PM
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JBowyer, I am so relieved and heartened by commentors like yourself, unlike some who I dare not name, but she insists on pushing the boundaries of ignorance and naivety, always quoting the obvious and never even attempting to offer any useful, viable or real information or solutions, just plagiarising or patronising.
Your view is well founded, as I believe that if the vaccine is not available soon and even then it may not be as hoped, we are wasting our time with all these seemingly viable precautions.
As I have said before, what is the point of all this when the virus will not be eliminated, and we will end up with the same deaths and those left alive, struggling to stay alive, because of loss of incomes and all that flows from it.
The ignorance or the unwillingness of some to see the uncomfortable truth leads to lies and mis-information.
Anyone quoting NZ's model as being the epitome or the leading example of how to conduct ourselves under such circumstances, is beyond stupid, as they forget that NZ is a smaller population and with different social and internal geographical elements which have led it to have fewer deaths than us or anyone else for that matter.
I must confess, I too had wondered whether Trump, in his possibly strange way, has in fact seen that this virus is not going to go away any time soon and thought that hiding from it will only prolong the obvious.
But then the medico's must have gotten into his ear and convinced him that the public will turn on him if he did not appear to do something, and so he did, knowing full well that any action would be futile for the public but disastrous for the economy.
I suppose one view is, those people who are in the firing line, are eventually going to die, even with precautions.
The only difference is that with the precautions, the economy IS going to die, and even the healthy people, in some cases, are going to die, as victims of the dying economy.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 June 2020 12:48:48 PM
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kinda funny but sad to see the state with the most draconian measures now with the biggest problems. The Chairman who encouraged every woke degenerate to protest but banned 2 people playing golf. The Chairman's Government so full of corruption now blaming families for hugging. We have many many dumbed down voters and Victoria seems to take the cake.
Posted by runner, Monday, 22 June 2020 12:59:38 PM
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Altrav,

OR 'clean' countries quarantine themselves from infected countries, as long as it takes for the infected countries and regions to clean themselves up by rigorous testing and tracking, and bringing case numbers down to zero by isolating positive cases.

In that way, a virus-free 'bubble' could soon happily include countries Australia, New Zealand, other countries in our region, Denmark, Iceland - and of course larger economies once they have done the right thing, as above.

Of course, countries or economies which are making little effort to control and suppress - and within their boundaries, eliminate - the virus, such as the US, the UK, Sweden, most of Europe, Brasil and most South American countries, will be outside that favoured 'bubble' for a long time yet.

Perhaps years. And it's only four months until the US elections.

Wait and see :)

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Monday, 22 June 2020 1:00:59 PM
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Why are people arguing about Laws that have
obviously been properly scrutinised, and found
to be necessary in the circumstances. Laws that
are fair and apply to all of us in order to
save lives.

We need people to obey the laws in order to stop the
spread of COVID-19.

Taking action by the government in implementing laws
that are fair, necessary, and have been properly and
democratically scrutinised, is a key element in
dealing with the pandemic.

What's more important - whinging about so called
burdensome laws, or saving lives?

Rather than looking at the rule of law as a burden on the
ability of the government to deal with the pandemic,
we should be seeing it as a way of maintaining public
confidence in the government and that the compliance
with the laws as being the only way that the pandemic
will be contained.

It's a no-brainer. Not brain-surgery.
It's a means of saving lives.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 June 2020 2:11:49 PM
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We were fortunate that we pulled up the drawbridge early in the event.
As I remember we got criticism from China and friends for doing that.
One stance we should examine is leaving the drawbridge up indefinitely.
It would require making Australia really self sufficient.
Food, energy, clothing and a multitude of industries would need to be
fired up very quickly.
As international trade would virtually stop shortages would develop.
Pharmaceuticals might be the only import.
We might have to build a way of life that accepts that no vaccine will be found.
After all no HIV vaccine was found, and if so our present arrangements
could be permanent.
To start from that point then adapt to reality as it hits us.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 22 June 2020 3:50:16 PM
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BTW, I heard that Trumps rally had empty blocks was because someone
booked large blocks of seats but did not turn up.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 22 June 2020 3:55:03 PM
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Bazz, yes apparently, it was the anti-Trumpers brigade.
Too obvious; and will only act to swing voters towards him as a show of disgust over such an underhanded and childish attempt at making it appear that his followers are diminishing, and if so it just might backfire on them, and it will carry an element of karma, thereby doing the opposite to what they were hoping for.
People are just so subjective and immature.
If they had left well enough alone, Trump himself has done more damage to himself than anyone else ever could have hoped for.
So just leave him be and he will loose the election all by himself.
If it is so deemed by the people of the USA.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 June 2020 4:59:19 PM
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There are very few laws that have been 'properly scrutinised'.
Anyone with a modicum of political savvy knows that laws are not done for the benefit of the people, but are done for the benefit of those behind the Govt, and for their interests.
One of the primary drivers in this state is mining.
Our chief slick won't open borders for fear of compromising the largest money earners for this state, and Australia.
The concept of lock-down and social distancing adopted by this Govt, is only a band aid fix, when major employers of people have been left to carry on unabated, while the smaller businesses have had to close.
I find the selection of who closes and who opens, confusing at best and unconscionable at worst.
As I have said, no end of locking ourselves away from each other, because when we do finally start mingling again, will stop those who are infectious from infecting others and those who are vulnerable will die.
It's just a question of time, it's either sooner, or later.
It's only that the lemon heads and jelly brains can't handle the truth, so the Govt has to be seen to be doing something.
But mark my words, follow all the rules the Govt throw at you, if your health is compromised in any way, even by age, you know exactly what is lurking around every corner.
You would be justified if you were to tell these air heads to go jump, because this is the real world, where people die if someone makes a stupid/wrong decision.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 June 2020 5:23:07 PM
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problem ALTRAV is that all people making decisions are on the public purse. Most are on fat salaries while depriving people being able to earn an honest living. We are not all in this together.
Posted by runner, Monday, 22 June 2020 5:28:01 PM
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runner,

The New Zealand Prime Minister and her ministers have
taken a 20% pay cut for 6 months to show solidarity with
those affected by the corona virus outbreak.

Perhaps our PM and Ministers will follow suit?

You think?
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 June 2020 6:28:37 PM
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Hi Bazz,

The national conversation after months of a global
pandemic and weeks of unrest over racial
injustice gave the US President an opportunity
in the rally in Tulsa to cut through the noise with
a dose of comfort and inspiration. The national
conversation could have used a real leader.

America had changed. Unfortunately Trump had not.
The underwhelming crowd size in Tulsa will now give
Trump's critics ammunition.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 June 2020 7:00:34 PM
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I predict that we will in the next few months understand the full extent of the fraud that is Covid. Always watch what political magicians do not focus on to know what is important.
Statistics are being mangled to ensure we do not find that the death rate is about where it was in the flu pandemic in 2017-8. Today they admitted the number was overdone in Victoria and should have only been eleven as seven people were double counted. Lots of this nonsense. Victoria with Andrews is a basket case and the fall out will be worse than Cain who Kirner took half the fall for.
Around the world the same tricks are being perpetrated and people, like you, being conned. They think we will forget but mind you I don't think youdoughnuts will even work out you have been had!
Posted by JBowyer, Monday, 22 June 2020 7:07:20 PM
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'runner,

The New Zealand Prime Minister and her ministers have
taken a 20% pay cut for 6 months to show solidarity with
those affected by the corona virus outbreak.

Perhaps our PM and Ministers will follow suit?

You think?'
Foxy

I think everyone on the public purse should take a 20 per cent pay cut. I guarantee state borders would reopen tomorrow and restrictions lifted a lot sooner.
Posted by runner, Monday, 22 June 2020 7:08:00 PM
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Anyone who is sucked in or believes any such naive and simplistic rubbish, is just not playing with a full deck.
A Govt, taking a 20% PAY CUT, FOR 6 MONTHS?
Big deal, pennies to them, and a small price to pay to suck the sheeple in to believing they are "in it and standing along side the people, through this time of hardship and suffering".
Anyone falling for this has exposed themselves to serious scrutiny, and at the same time demonstrated their poor sense of reasoning and comprehension.
In other words, if you are impressed and believe that the motive for this "stunt", is "solidarity", then you have joined the ranks of the rest of those who believe everything politicians say, without question.
Just for the record and the sake of a reality check, had they said, "we will not pay ourselves for the duration of this disaster".
I might feel a little inclined to consider it, but only for a moment, then I would come back to the real world when I realised we are talking about politicians.
HUH! Solidarity my arsenal!
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 June 2020 7:24:02 PM
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Hi runner,

Glad you got the joke.

Humour is essential, especially in the toughest
of times. Shared laughter gives us strength in
adversity and can help us feel a bit more in control
when the future looks uncertain.

Anyway here's a bit of light relief that we all could
use:

1) If you need 144 rolls of toilet paper for a 14 day
quarantine you probably should have been seeing a
doctor long before COVID-19.

2) Got this big bag of toilet paper as a gag for
Christmas.
Who's laughing now?

3) Once they come out with a corona virus vaccine
I don't want to see any of you antivaxxers getting one.
Don't be a hypocrite.

4) What do you call panic buying of sausage and cheese
in Germany?
The Wurst-Kase scenario.

That's the best I found on the web.

Enjoy.

Take care.
Stay safe.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 June 2020 8:04:01 PM
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JimBowyer,

Thank god for geniuses who can see through the fake accounts of a severe virus, who can see that 120,000 deaths in the US and half a million around the world are really nothing, probably haven't happened, or simply are a matter of re-classifying how people have died, they would have died of something anyway.

And those outbreaks, clusters, are all manufactured. They're not actually happening. Anyway, we all have to die some time, so why not now ?

There's nobody actually dying in Brasil or India or Italy, that's all fake - obviously a communist plot - otherwise how could anybody believe that commo Vietnam has had no deaths while the US has had 120,000 deaths, so far ?

And anyway, we know that drinking disinfectant or shining a strong light up your arse will cure it. Maybe another strong light down your throat, at the point where they meet.

Yes, we're all going to die: so each of us, Jim, should make plans about how they want to be buried or cremated, what sort of ceremony, what songs to be sung, who is to inherit our assets; also whether we would like our spouse or boy/girlfriend to shack up with after we're gone; what to do with our belongings, our clothes (burn them ?) or all that stuff in our shed, or whatever.

Start planning NOW for when you die, Jim. Because it may be sooner than you think, from this fake virus. Then you'll be gone - I hope that you will be remembered, by at least someone, even by that pedo up the street.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Monday, 22 June 2020 8:15:24 PM
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Oh Joe, what vitriol! Ascribing so many things I did not say to me? I am 73, overweight and I am sorry if you have pedo friends I really am, ditch them now but do not worry about my funeral arrangements they are well in hand.
You missed the point. We are all going to die. Median age is about 80 years so guess what the average age of covid deaths is? It's a joke as it is 80. You are being played old son, as we would say in old London "Done up like a kipper, killed, smoked and gutted".
I put this down to your TDS, can you really be so blind and trusting of the Democratic party, BLM and the witch Pelosi?
So much for the "Be kind" advertising campaign lol! Another waste of out tax paying dollars.
Posted by JBowyer, Monday, 22 June 2020 8:23:48 PM
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Dear Big Nana,

You said;

“Conservatives are the one who supported strict lock downs, not the socialist left.”

Well that was patently untrue in Sweden, and in the UK, and in Brazil, and in the USA.

If you have counter examples I would like to hear them.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Sweden's economy grew only on the back of a rise in exports. Theirs rose by 3.4 percent while ours dipped by 3.3%. But it wasn't on the back of increased production. Large parts of its manufacturing shut down while Australia's kept going. As a result we recorded far stronger manufacturing growth figures in the GDP mix.

Our household consumption fell by 1.1% while theirs dipped by 1.7%. Of course included in our figures were the impact of the bushfires.

So little joy for you there I'm afraid.

As to Victoria only a single one of the new cases over the weekend is recorded as having attended the protests. The vast bulk are either from the meatworks or outbreaks in families ignoring COVID rules.

Dear JBowyer,

Not a great fan of hers but Pelosi vs Mitch? Whew. No contest there I'm afraid.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 22 June 2020 10:11:10 PM
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I like this one;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALGkQq3RJ7k
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 23 June 2020 6:47:02 AM
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SR,

I was comparing Sweden with other countries in the EU not Aus or NZ who benefited from a huge separation from the rest of the world and a significant time lag in infections. Compared to most of its neighbours the Swedish economy has suffered far less than most EU countries (EU average -3.5% )and while its death rate is relatively high, its population is also not suffering from lockdown fatigue that is the source of unrest in most countries and is better equiped to deal with the crisis in the long term.

Notably Aus had a conservative government with strict lock down and Sweden has a comparatively left whinge government and had a very loose social distancing regime.

"In the seven days to Monday, Victoria revealed 121 cases of coronavirus, only 34 of which were in recently returned overseas travellers in hotel quarantine. Monday’s 16 new cases included a fourth case of a person who attended the protest in Melbourne’s CBD on June 6 and caught the virus."

Regards
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 23 June 2020 8:19:30 AM
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Professor Neil Ferguson’s team at Imperial College were the people who put together the models used to predict disaster in the US, UK and (it seems) Australia. That the models were fatally flawed is now confirmed.

But not all their advise was about impending disaster....

"In fact, the Imperial team did identify the main problem about a lockdown. In an earlier report to Sage, they had pointed out that once a disease had taken hold in a population, ‘measures which are too effective merely push all transmission to the period after they are lifted, giving a delay but no substantial reduction in either peak incidence or overall attack rate’."

New Zealand and Victoria, as well as many other parts of the world, are in a panic about a second wave and what's to be done.

I wonder if Sweden is concerned about a second wave. </sarc>
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 23 June 2020 10:28:15 AM
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More important than comparing ourselves with other countries is what we do in Australia. With our international borders closed probably well into next year, now is time to wean ourselves off mass immigration and get our our 0.7 million permanently unemployed, as well as the 600,000 thrown out of work by Morrison, into work. Dick Smith has called today for a cut in immigration to 75,O00 year. That's still too many, but much better than the suicidal 200-300 thousand pre China virus intake.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 23 June 2020 11:03:22 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

“As part of the agreement, the Social Democrats and Greens signed onto a 73-point declaration of intent that is heavy on conservative policies like mandatory language testing to become a citizen, lower taxes and weaker employment protection rules. It also ruled out any influence from the Left Party, the heir to the old Communist Party.”

Hardly makes it a comparatively left wing government does it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/world/europe/sweden-government.html

Dear mhaze,

Sweden is likely well into its second phase with record setting new infections seen over the last week.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 23 June 2020 3:14:27 PM
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"Sweden is likely well into its second phase with record setting new infections seen over the last week."

But are they panicked by it?

Those nations and governments who mortgaged the future prosperity of the next generations on the hope they could permanently defeat the WuFlu are terrified that second, third etc waves will show that economic destruction wasn't worth it.

Others are more sanguine.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 8:07:36 AM
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Here's another thing more important than how we compare with foreign countries in dealing with the China virus: there are now over 5 million of our 25 million population on the dole or receiving the JobKeeper wage subsidy. Many more have had their wages or hours cut, because of thousands of businesses closed down by our irresponsible government.

Australians have been punished by out-of-touch politicians and bureaucrats who don't have a clue about anything; they think that small businesses can simply shut, and open, and then shut again.

With the stupidity going on in Australia, we don't have any business concerning ourselves with Sweden or any other country other than our own.

All to prevent the deaths of a few old people (like me) who were and are on death's doorstep anyway. Why do we keep voting for idiots
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 10:15:18 AM
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Dear mhaze,

Well the architect of Sweden's response is certainly sanguine even when admitting he got it wrong.

Dr Tegnell, who is Sweden's state epidemiologist and in charge of the country's response to Covid-19 says "If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing exactly what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done."

And when asked if too many people had died too soon, Dr Tegnell said, "Yes, absolutely."

Do you agree?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 11:33:44 AM
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ttbn, I fear that there are far more people out there who don't think with a full deck.
We have too many who only want to see what appears to be the right answer on the surface and also makes them feel good.
I would like to think that people like you and I are more pragmatic and objective, not subjective and emotional, and consider far more than the obvious.
I agree, if I'm reading you right, that this virus is not going to give up any time soon and that it will still be around well after these fools think it's safe to carry on.
Sweden, being of a less emotional and very pragmatic people, probably accepted that they were not going to out run this threat and did a risk assessment early on, deciding to let the chips fall where they may, and thinking as I did that the destruction and ruination of those who could beat the virus, was not a good enough decision/reason to save what few sick, vulnerable and elderly that will die from this virus.
Now I realise that there are far too many fairy brains and princesses out there, starting with our own unrealistic reject-er of reality and the real world, for them/her to accept such a cruel idea, but seeing as how we will still be around to witness them rue the day they ever decided to comment on anything and everything that they obviously have NO idea of what they speak, we will have the last laugh when the very people they ignorantly seek or attempt to protect will succumb to this insidious and despicable evil that has befallen us.
If one is a religious man one could think this is the wrath of God telling us something, not being that religious I have my own ideas of what it might be, but I think it is merely nature at work and the job at hand with this virus is, when it is over, we will be a stronger and healthier people, as only the stronger and healthier will survive.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 11:43:04 AM
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ALTRAV,

Good to have you back. The place is awash with lefties, and there aren't many posters worth looking at.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 11:56:39 AM
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So Steely, are you suggesting that the good Swedish Doctor was admitting failure or of making the wrong decision?
I get a different take, and that is, he actually feels that they made the right decision, but for PC and public perception, you will note that he did not say that they should have adopted only what the rest of the world had done.
He was being PC, and not denying or denigrating their decision, but carefully choosing his words to appease or placate any detractors, of which he knows there are many, and I feel they are few in Sweden.
It matters not the decision, because ultimately those who will succumb to this virus, will succumb, and only a vaccine MIGHT stop the onslaught.
Until it is completely eradicated, NO-ONE is exempt from attack.
The only difference is the health and well being of the attackee as to them being able to fight it off, and survive the attack.
Even then we are seeing recurring cases which have surprised even those managing this pandemic.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 12:59:13 PM
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Yes, SR Swedish response wasn't perfect. Please advise which country's response was perfect.

With imperfect information, imperfect decisions were made. This was the point I made way back in late March ie that with hindsight the decisions taken were wrong but understandable. But once the data became less imperfect, our government continued down the same path as though nothing had been learned. We'll be paying for that for decades.

Sweden won't.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 1:02:24 PM
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ttbn, thanks. As I said previously, between the self righteous, the subjective and immature posturing of so many on OLO, not to mention the shear bias of the adjudicators, and finally the inane topics and subsequent responses, I saw nothing worthy of my time or worth responding to.
So I would glance at the topics every now and then and just move on to other forums and endeavours.
Finally I had to comment as I can't just stand back and let certain people mis-lead others with their irrational, childish and biased views, on pretty much everything!
I do wish she would get a grip and a reality check, thereby doing us ALL a favour, and I would not have to intercede or intervene to rectify any misguided comments.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 1:10:55 PM
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ALTRAV, and most just thought you had spat the dummy for having a post 'deleted for abuse' 10/03/2020. You certainly disappeared soon after.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 2:03:34 PM
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Dear Paul1405,

And lookie there, just over 3 months sabbatical. I wonder why?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 2:05:49 PM
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refreshing to have a voice of reason back ALTRAV. So tired of the Jussie Smollet types with fake narratives.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 3:15:07 PM
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We were regaled on last night's news with a shock horror story of 'concerned' American racing car drivers making a huge and showy fuss about one of their kind being racially harassed by way of a 'noose' being hung up in his garage. The victim, one Bubba Wallace, looked much like any white American with a tan, and an FBI has disclosed that the rope wasn't a noose, but a door cord that had been there since LAST OCTOBER.

We know that the pathetic Australian MSM can't find any real racism in Australia, so they have to get it from overseas. But, they could at least check their second hand stories out before making complete idiots of themselves
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 3:19:34 PM
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My dear runner,

I understand you much prefer bigoted, racist, misogynistic narratives instead as befits your toxic brand of faux Christianity.

You have prattled on about protesters, fat salaries, Danial Andrews, and now Somett, all on a thread about Sweden's response to the COVID.

Why? Do you feel the need to spit out your little nasty asides whatever the topic just to make you feel like you're doing God's work?

I'm not sure he appreciates it.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 3:51:22 PM
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Oh Steelie

welcome. I thought you would be in Seattle celebrating the 'summer of love' with the rest of the anarchist.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 4:24:46 PM
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SR, what makes you and Paul think you are the next coming with your continual posturing and preaching as if you are more knowledgeable and superior to the rest of us?
It is precisely because of your "holier than thou" attitude that renders you both beneath contempt, (including adjudicators) in the eyes of any open minded, mature and reasonable person on this forum.
It has not gone un-noticed that any shut downs have been the work of mainly one of you.
That kind of sanctimonious, "win at any cost", type of behaviour is that of a very insecure person who can't stand being proven wrong so they respond by "crying to mummy", and getting off on the fact that they won the point.
I did not know there was a section that broadcast those who were blocked.
I am most curious to know, as are others on OLO, so could you please enlighten us as to how/where to access this information, as I would like to know when and who has been "pulled", myself.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 4:28:29 PM
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SR, BTW, leave God's name out of it, he has pulled your ticket years ago.
You were not his chosen one, even though you have been trying to win back his favour ever since, believing your doing God's work.
I'm sorry, you are lost to him, so you may as well give up, as we are not listening and don't care, just like him.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 4:35:19 PM
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mhaze,

I guess it amounts to what you value the most. Money
or human lives. You said we'll by paying for decades
for our restrictions. Sweden won't.

Yes, Sweden took a relaxed approach towards COVID-19
choosing not ti institute strict lockdown policies with
no mandatory quarantine in place. Their museums, bars,
restaurants, gyms, malls, schools, nightclubs remained
open.
However, this had disastrous results with more than
4,500 deaths being reported by June 4th.

Apparently many of the deaths have hit people in
aged-care facilities. The most vulnerable.

We on the other hand have had fewer lives lost because
or our restrictions.

That's a price in my opinion at least, that's been worth
paying.

ttbn,

You brought up the topic of racism.

It's true that generally in this country, we all get along
pretty well and feel good about our society.

But we can't take that for granted if the Coronavirus
pandemic leads to a recession.

The pandemic has already lead to reports of racism,
including accounts of Asian Australians being verbally
abused.

The Australian Human Rights Commission says its recorded
more complaints in February than at any time over the
previous 12 months. This could get worse.

Our political leaders are crucial at this time.

Of course an up surge in racial prejudice during our
economic downturn is not inevitable but the fallout
of ignoring this prospect would be ugly for us all.

This is something we can anticipate and it also needs to be
prepared for, contained, and eliminated.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 4:40:37 PM
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A spectacular over-simplification Foxy..."I guess it amounts to what you value the most. Money or human lives. You said we'll by paying for decades for our restrictions."

Money isn't the issue. Human lives are the issue. Enormous numbers of lives have been sacrificed to the lockdown mantra. Job losses. Peoples livelihoods destroyed, some forever. Savings gone. Small businesses built over decades gone at a stroke.

Any compassion for those people, Foxy? Thought not.

Psychologists are predicting significant increases in suicides. Any compassion for those losses?

Specialists are predicted increased cancer and heart deaths because people couldn't get medical assistance while hospitals waited for the virus influx that never came. Any compassion for those losses?

Domestic violence? Kids education?

Sweden suffered none of that because they treated their citizens like adults.

But let's ignore all that and consult the league table to see who's winning, eh? But why compare Sweden to Australia when the comparison is utterly invalid. Why not compare Sweden to the other nations who did lockdown and suffered yet.

And finally remember that this isn't over yet. Its a marathon and we've yet to reach the 10km point. That's why places like Victoria and NZ are so panicked
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 6:17:01 PM
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mhaze,

It looks like I touched a chord with you.

Of course I care about people's lives, their jobs,
and much, much, more.

However, I firmly believe that the Australian Government
has done the right thing. As for Sweden? Who are we to
judge - right? The same goes for the US - right?

All I can say is - I'm glad I live in Australia.

You're welcome to disagree of course - but please refrain
from making assumptions about me.
I shall try to do the same for you.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 6:25:32 PM
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You silly lot are still panicking over this virus, one of many that assail us. We have had Corona virus here in Aus since before the aboriginal people arrived. Google Vic Rail the horse trainer.
I still blame our politicians, State more than Federal, for the upset caused to you bed wetters.
Major disruption and thousands more lives lost when all the virus has done has taken an odd year or two off old sick people. I personally am looking forward to when the revenge starts to be enacted for all the misery that will be rained on our heads by the stupidity of politicians and our failure to stop them.
Posted by JBowyer, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 7:55:17 PM
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Dear mhaze,

You said to Foxy; “Sweden suffered none of that because they treated their citizens like adults.”

Absolute and utter bollocks.

Sweden closed down their highschools and universities.

Many of their large industries shut down unlike Australia.

Their domestic spending fell markedly more than ours but if their death rate was translated to here it would amount to nearly 13,000 deaths and growing.

Death rates of infected people are falling in developed countries as better treatments are coming on line. In even the worst case scenario of universal infection Sweden could have brought more time and saved lives.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 9:02:36 PM
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SR, here we go again.
You must have caught Foxy's problem.
You quote things, only to have them debunked soon after.
You quote facts and figures but forget to mention that they are not from the same reference column.
The attached link explains my point, in reference to the stats.
The early stats are from one group but the latter are from another.
So all it means is it confirms my point of twisting the facts to highlight a pre-conceived agenda.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/public-support-for-sweden-s-controversial-coronavirus-strategy-is-plummeting

Forget the title, look at the text.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 24 June 2020 9:39:59 PM
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ALTRAV Il Duce, welcome back, there were reports that you were seen hanging upside down in the village square at Giulino di Mezzegra in Italy. Like reports of Elvis being seen just last week working at the 'Burger King' store in Dapto NSW, probably not true.

You ain't nothin' but a hound dog
Cryin' all the time
You ain't nothin' but a hound dog
Cryin' all the time
Well, you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine.

Oh yea you are, you cuddly like Munchkin! Welcome back.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 25 June 2020 6:52:41 AM
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Errrrr,........ OK?.......... I think? Wait! What?
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 25 June 2020 7:48:23 AM
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Dear Steele,

More than 38,600 new infections were reported in
the US, surpassing records set in April.

Republicans criticize Trump's decision to end funding
for 13 COVID-19 testing sites.

How is this man allowed to continue to stay in office?
In Australia we would have kicked him out long ago.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 25 June 2020 11:21:02 AM
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Hi Foxy,

Yes it is shocking. There is little doubt the US deaths will pass the 200,000 mark within a few months.

Yet I guarantee the same old crowd will be defending Trump. I really don't think there would be a death toll figure which would cause any of them to cease their cultish admiration of him. What is particularly disconcerting is that many of them are Australians. It is a weird time to be alive.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 25 June 2020 11:40:44 AM
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Dear Steele,

What I find even more disconcerting from some of
the comments on this forum is the fact that
there appears to be so many angry conservatives
claiming to love this country while hating
almost everyone in it.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 25 June 2020 11:51:11 AM
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Foxy & Steele,

I wonder if a lot of the defence of Trumpf by the ratbags is not FOR him, per se, but AGAINST the Democrats, Henry Clinton, Pelosi, and Biden in particular - basically anyone who is critical of the Republicans and the extreme Right.

And Trumpf fits in nicely with all that, saying what they want to hear, in all its cock-eyed contradictions, e.g. suck up to China, attack China, insult China, go easy on China, whatever suits at the time.

And of course, anything said by anybody which differs from that messy mix is an enemy, anybody with some sort of consistent set of principles, such as some of the Democrats.

So incompetence doesn't matter; principles don't count; winning is everything.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 25 June 2020 1:01:29 PM
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'So incompetence doesn't matter; principles don't count; winning is everything. '

describe Marxist democrats to the tee Joe. Keep removing your hatred and you might see a little more clearly.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 25 June 2020 1:06:48 PM
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Runner,

I don't have a lot of hatred - disgust maybe; amazement and amusement, shock, contempt, impatience, resignation, a sense of futility, but not much hatred. I'll leave that to the Manichaean Believers. The Either-Orers.

I do fear that Trompf has turned the great US into just another sh!thole, with the EU advising against travel there. The US's fair-weather president has a talent, seen usually only in five-year-olds, for covering his eyes and 'therefore' seeing no problems, while the Covid-19 virus rages almost unchecked across his country.

Just at a time when any country desperately needs an intelligent leader, such as we have here, the US is inflicted with a half-wit. I suspect that Australia will come out of this virus-crisis with far fewer casualties AND far less deficit, and far more quickly than the US, or the UK for that matter. Your president has ruined his country, perhaps for decades to come.

I hope not because that might give China an enormous advantage for world domination, although I also suspect that their economy is also in crisis, but there you go.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 25 June 2020 1:27:50 PM
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Sally Cripps, Professor of Statistics at the University of Sydney, has said that the models used to panic Scotty et al were consistently inaccurate. Those in the modelling community "didn't know what they were doing", she said.

Cripps intimated that consideration should be given to whether of not the use of models should be continued.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 June 2020 1:34:50 PM
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Hi Joe,

We have a parallel in this country with Pauline
Hanson supporters. Hanson like Trump appeals to
those Australians who cannot relate to what
they see as the political "elite".

We live in a time of instability. We've seen
uncertainty, a change of PMs. A lack of leadership.
It's no wonder that people like Trump and Hanson
strike a chord with some in Australia.

The last thing though that we need to do is demonise
them both. We can criticize them - but not demonise
them.

We need to keep in mind that they both got
elected. They are part of the democratic process and
we do have to somehow address some of the concerns
and issues in our society.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 25 June 2020 1:35:49 PM
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In comparing deaths you need to consider the population size.

EU deaths 190 000
US deaths 124 000
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 25 June 2020 1:36:43 PM
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'Just at a time when any country desperately needs an intelligent leader, such as we have here, the US is inflicted with a half-wit.'

you might have a point Joe however the fact that the lying liberal media in co-horts with the democrats spent years on a dummy spit making up and promoting lies about Russian and Ukraine collusion just proved want a deceitful lying bunch of hypocrites are. Even you are so stupid as to see that Trump did much better for America in regards to China than your poster boy Obama who really was a traitor to the US.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 25 June 2020 2:32:57 PM
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Ttbn,

And what do you know, they worked ! Australia under Morrison has had remarkably few Covid-19 deaths (103 compared to the US's 123,000 so far) and looks like coming out of the crisis much earlier, along with New Zealand, than the US or Europe, or perhaps even China - and with a lower budget deficit (per capita) than almost any other country.

Policy is always a fraught area, it's always easy for some ivory-tower academic to criticise after crucial events. The key to policy is, as Richard Elmore has written so wisely, the implementation stage - that's where the rubber meets the road, where wrinkles can get ironed out IF policy-makers are genuinely interested in following through.

I suppose we'll see, but I think that Australia under Morrison and New Zealand under Ardern are coming out of this crisis in far better economic positions than almost any other countries. If they made mistakes, thank god for that.

Joe

.
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 25 June 2020 3:22:43 PM
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SM,

Population of Europe (Dr Google): 741 million

Population of the US: 328.2 million

So Europe has 2.26 times the population of the USA, but only 1.53 the number of deaths from the covid-19 virus - a differential of one and a half against the US.

Not that either one can crow about their competence in confronting the virus, compared to Australia's experience: if they had followed our example, instead of being smug and so damn superior, they would have had fewer than five thousand deaths, instead of 70 times - seventy times - as many. Does either one know what the hell they are doing, even yet ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 25 June 2020 3:39:29 PM
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Foxy,

"It looks like I touched a chord with you."

Yes, ignorant sanctimony tends to goad me. Things like asserting that I favour money of lives. So spare me the "but please refrain
from making assumptions about me" BS.

"Of course I care about people's lives, their jobs,
and much, much, more."

Yes, once I've pointed out that its not just money v. lives, you suddenly realise you need to pretend to have or understand some nuance.
______________________________________________________________

There are any number of reasons why a country's death rates may be higher or lower than another. Since we now know the disease is an old person's disease, the age of the population will be an issue. There is also evidence that vitamin 'D' levels will matter. Equally the level of multiple-generation co-habitation.
Sweden had an older population than many of its cohort group. It also had a higher level of non-Scandinavian inhabitants, who are more prone to the disease.
AND, Sweden took the long term view. We haven't reached a position where we can evaluate the long term. Those doing so are elevating politics over good-sense.

Just a word on Australia. Sure we have done well as compared to others. But we had all the advantages here:

1. We are an island. Most of the places that did well were islands or able to be quickly isolated - Taiwan, Japan, NZ, south Korea (not an island but its only border is permanently closed).
2. We don't have major congested cities.
3. We have high vitamin D levels on average
4. The virus hit in summer when it is weaker, so all our early mistakes were less consequential.
5. We don't have a tradition of multi-generational households.

We were more lucky than prescient.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 25 June 2020 4:00:51 PM
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Joe,

If you are talking about the models, they most certainly did not work. Millions dead. Not enough respirators. Not enough hospital beds. In Australia, nowhere else.

All bollocks.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 June 2020 4:20:39 PM
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mhaze,

Steele was correct in pointing out that your
previous claims were - "absolute and utter
bollocks". You are in position to talk about
ignorant sanctimony when yours is so clearly
on display for all to see.

I, unlike you do not have to pretend to have
or understand some nuance.

As for Australia's small death rates - luck had
nothing to do with it. Our government's actions did!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 25 June 2020 4:45:49 PM
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For the record, SR is in no more a position to talk about anything he has not been a party too or been involved personally.
So let's not try to get ahead of ourselves, or anyone else for that matter.
There are 7 billion people in the world and all of them different, so I challenge any one of you to know what is on anyone's mind.
As for the Swedish phenomenon, as I have said many times, I think outside the box and consider the things that sheeple, (there are some on OLO), don't or don't want to consider.
Many Nordic countries of which Sweden is one, for the purpose of my example, are a very pragmatic, objective and rational people, with absolutely little time for childish emotions and subjective thinking, so it is that just maybe the govt decided that the elderly were expendable and this virus was going to destroy their economy if they shut everything down, including healthy people.
So they may have expected the people who were most susceptible to the virus would take precautions, either of their own choosing or by govt promotion.
Everyone knows this virus will not just go away by itself and even those not showing any signs, are still carriers and can infect at any time later, so isolating will not stop the inevitable, in that after you have isolated you will still fall prey to it when coming into contact with carriers, as we are seeing, not only here in Australia, but overseas also.
The only difference between us and Sweden is that the rest of us, (the healthy ones) in Australia are going to suffer because of the shut-downs, where-as in Sweden, they carried on as normal, and in doing so have afforded the title of being the only country, not only in the region, to have (at last report) a 3.7% growth when everyone else including Australia is in the negative, or recession.
And one last thing, stop comparing countries, are you all such morons that you don't know the basics and pitfalls of comparing countries?
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 25 June 2020 6:42:44 PM
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Altrav,

Here's an interesting Table comparing the numbers of deaths from the virus per every 100,000 people. It is also, obviously a measure of policy effectiveness:

http://webmail.internode.on.net/index.php/mail/viewmessage/getattachment/folder/INBOX/uniqueId/14590/filenameOriginal/Covid%2Bnumbers%2Bper%2Bmillon.pdf

Makes me proud to be Australian :)

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 25 June 2020 7:32:41 PM
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Altrav,

According to Wikipedia, around 16,000 people have been killed by the Ebola virus since 1976, i.e. over 44 years. Overwhelmingly they have been in Africa. As Trumpf has pointed out, Africa is made up a lot of sh!thole countries.

The US has now lost more than 120,000 people to the Covid virus in barely three months, or more than seven times as many as the number of Ebola deaths in whole of Africa.

It makes some of us wonder, where is the world's worst sh!thole country ? Or is it more a matter of the US being inflicted with a sh!thouse president ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 25 June 2020 8:25:06 PM
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This virus may be very transmissible but many people get it and show no symptoms and others do, up to and including death. It is mainly over 80 year olds dying and how are we supposed to know if that was the final nail in their coffin or not?
Impoverishing people, destroying their businesses and throwing them on the scrapheap has major consequences. Now add to that the leprechaun sacking Australians and replacing them with much cheaper Asian workers. Great for his bottom line and bonus not as good for Australia. Still Morrison will be on the board in a few years whilst Andrews works for some Chinese Company.
I think we have been treated by the childish politicians as just other children for them to bully. My hatred of the idiot Andrews with his smarmy bully boy tactics knows no bounds. Being lectured by the school milk monitor gets my back up. You just wait till they start pointing out that it was all your fault then lets see how much praise you have for these scum!
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:11:37 PM
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JBowyer, I think agree, but I cannot identify who you are referring too.
I'm guessing it is Andrews?
Yes, No?
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:28:43 PM
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Dear mhaze,

Your very first claim about Sweden was this;

“Sweden had an older population than many of its cohort group.”

Mate time to stop winging it. The only major Scandinavian country whose median age is less than Sweden is Norway.

Finland 42.8

Denmark 42.0

Sweden 41.1

Norway 39.5

http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/343rank.html

Australia may well be an island but Sweden is buttressed from the rest of Europe by Finland which had far less infections and deaths.

Ultimately this is the best like for like comparison available. Who can claim Sweden has done the best by its residents?

http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&country=NOR~SWE~DNK~FIN
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:58:26 PM
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SR, sorry but irrespective of other countries older population, Sweden has 20.59% over 65.
The next age group below that is the 0 - 14, at 17.71%.
Given this fact, it is not surprising they lost as many (older) lives as they did.
You would have us believe that had they isolated the oldies they might have survived.
I say it is now being proven and played out, even here in Australia, that once those same oldies ventured out into the community, they would have ended up dead, it was inevitable, and so it will be with any country, unless the virus is completely eradicated and killed off.
I don't care to compare when there is not one stat' or spec' that is the same as another, when referring to countries.
So even thought the data is current to withing a few days, we can safely assume it to be true and therefore reliable.
One thing that can be taken from these stats' is that the rest of the people or population were spared from financial ruin and in fact the same data shows that Sweden's economy rose by 3.7% as opposed to every other country, including it's closest neighbours, who have all gone negative or in recession.
Now those of you who feel so sanctimonious and virtuous might try to put across a posture of insensitivity over the thought that a country would be so callous as to sacrifice it's oldies for the sake of it's younger, healthier and productive people.
Well, suck it up and move on, it's just another decision made by another govt, for whatever reason they thought it best to do so.
But remember on thing, the oldies that died, were going to die.
Those that were going to survive the virus, if they lived in any other country, including and especially, Australia, are now in dire straits, and worse off than if they had died.
So let's not get on our high horse and play God in admonishing the Swedish govt, and in fact think about the millions who are now still in work.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 26 June 2020 2:04:15 AM
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Forumland is doing well, with an average age of the populace at 97, they have had no cases, and certainly no deaths from coronavirus. They have not been in lock down, but rather locked up since the big one back in 1919, one resident still remembers the plague of 65, that's 1665. All is well with the old fellas down at Shady Pines Rest and Retirement Village, where the lads take their daily dose of diso, and Nursey administers the bright light of happiness, shone up their clackker twice a day. A couple of bongo pills, complacence of The Donald, and they settle back in their easy chairs, watch a little telly, nodding off for another day of peaceful slumber in paradise.

God bless.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 26 June 2020 6:52:02 AM
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SR,

As ALTRAV said, the issue isn't median age, its the proportion of those in the most vulnerable categories. Do try to keep up with the rest of the class.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 26 June 2020 11:42:32 AM
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More information that most of you won't want to see, let alone accept....

1. "CDC says COVID-19 cases in U.S. may be 10 times higher than reported".... http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-says-covid-19-cases-u-s-may-be-10-n1232134

If true, or even close, that takes the Infection Fatality Rate down to normal flu levels.

2. "the deaths now attributed to COVID-19 might be grossly exaggerated.".... http://issuesinsights.com/2020/06/25/falling-covid-19-death-rates-are-even-smaller-than-they-look/

I've talked about this before and the evidence just keeps growing.

Interestingly, when you look at the CDC data on total deaths from all causes for the first 24 weeks of each of the last 4 years, the numbers are remarkably similar. 2020 currently has more deaths than the previous years but not by anything like the much quoted 130000+ and when changes in population numbers are taken into account it is basically tied with the last bad flu season of 2018.

Someone here was saying over two months ago that it would be just be the equivalent of a bad flu season...who was that?
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 26 June 2020 12:17:07 PM
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lies, lies and statistics but inly when it suites the narrative. Just ask Joe.
Posted by runner, Friday, 26 June 2020 12:23:06 PM
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Hi Runner,

Yes, just ask me: how does the Government Competence Rate in Australia comp-are with that of the US, using the Covid death-rate as a surrogate ?

Thanks for asking: Australia has had 104 deaths; the US, with 14 times the population, should have had about 1456 deaths if it had been run on the same lines of efficiency, but so far it has a death rate of 123,000. Eighty four times as much as it could have had.

Of course, Australia may have a few more deaths, but with the upturn in cases in the US, what are the odds that it will hit 200,000 before Australia hits 200 ?

Is that what you mean, Runner ?

No problems, just ask away.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Friday, 26 June 2020 4:01:15 PM
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considering the 'experts' in the US said 2 million deaths Joe, then even know each death is a tragedy 200000 seems reasonable. Then again its how you play the stats. Here in Aussie the State with the most draconian lock down laws is doing the worse by far. Seems most are blaming Andrews not Morrison. Mind you those totally 'competent' democrat mayors never put a foot wrong. Sending covid patients into old peoples home was a brilliant decision. Just ask the Mayor of New York.
Posted by runner, Friday, 26 June 2020 4:06:49 PM
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"Government Competence Rate in Australia comp-are with that of the US, using the Covid death-rate as a surrogate"

Oh so we are judging governments on their WuFlu deaths? Well that must mean that East Timor's government is world class.

As well as Zimbabwe's - all hail the successors of the great Mugabe.

And let's not forget the exemplary government in Mongolia - a world leading government class since Genghis Khan.

All places have had zero deaths.

Or we could show a little more nuance and understand that comparing any two places based on one (highly disputed) metric is bonkers.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 26 June 2020 4:21:49 PM
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Even though each death is a tragedy, (drum roll, crocodile tears) 200,000 deaths seems reasonable, did I say reason-na-bull, yes I did (drum roll, more crocodile tears). Did I say 500,000 deaths...did I say reason-na-bull, yes I did (drum roll, more crocodile tears). Did I say 1,000,000 deaths...did I say reason-na-bull, yes I did (drum roll, more crocodile tears).

Runner you are a phoney who is full of it, you are a typical Trumpster, you, like Trump have no real concern for the dead at all. Where is your Christianity now? Up you know where!
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 26 June 2020 5:01:38 PM
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glad to have your vote Paul. You are obviously very pro life (not). Just keep your lying Greens/Marxist narratives flowing you compassionate soul.
Posted by runner, Friday, 26 June 2020 5:09:13 PM
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btw Paul no doubt you are happy with your latest Australian hating recruit who refuses to identify as Australian. Oh that's right she changed her mind in order to collect Australian tax payers money. Congratulations on your new 'traitor' in your party.
Posted by runner, Friday, 26 June 2020 5:17:45 PM
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Heres the thing, Covid19 is now running rampant through much of America, Europe and Asia. Its estimated that over 20 million Americans have now contracted the virus, Europe is much the same. While the rest of the world approaches herd immunity then how does Australia continue to isolate against the virus? We cant keep our borders locked forever. Economic implications are favouring Australia now but they wont in 2 years time when the rest of the world is getting on with business with herd immunity and a depleted virus while we will still have a largely vulnerable population. We will look at Sweden as the way we should have handled this.
Posted by jimmy2shoes, Friday, 26 June 2020 11:00:41 PM
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jimmy2shoes, you are wasting your breath.
I was probably the first one to ask the question, or speculate that maybe Swedens govt considered that the oldies and sick, were going to catch it and die, sooner or later.
Given that they took the pragmatic view, and weighed up all the different costs of either losing a smaller number of vulnerable and non-productive of the population, against the greater majority of young and healthy, productive of the population, it was decided that they could not risk the lives/fate of the greater majority, so let the people go about their business and advise the oldies to self isolate, in the hope that they would be spared.
I believe the decision was a correct one.
They will lose a lot of people.
They will lose the people that they lose and there is/was nothing that could be done about it, so why destroy, even possibly kill an unknown number of the healthy people who will suffer, even die through loss of income, jobs and security, even hope.
So when the emotional, subjective, immature, weak amongst us get a grip, they will see that those Swedes that died, were targets, sooner or later, the virus would have caught up with them, but, the healthy are still employed the businesses are still operating, and just to rub sh!t in everyone's faces, Sweden's ecomomy is the only one, pretty much world wide with a 3.7% growth during this same period the rest of the world are in the negative or recession
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:08:46 AM
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Unfortunately the only people with herd immunity are a few of the 'Usual Suspects' on OLO who have developed herd immunity to the reality of the situation. There is no evidence that HI is developed in a population following the first wave of infection without a vaccine, its a big gamble. The numbers required to be infected to achieve a possible HI can be as high as 85%, in the US that would represent 280,000,000, and Australia 22,000,000 people. This article in 'The Conversation' tells the story.

http://theconversation.com/herd-immunity-wont-solve-our-covid-19-problem-139724

Il Duce, you are throwing figures around claiming to show the economic success of Sweden in dealing with the pandemic, the evidence of GDP growth is just not there as yet. The important economic indicator will be GDP for the second quarter 2020, not the first, which is a rubbery figure of yours at best. Wait and see the second quarter figures then you may be able to claim something on the economic front for Sweden.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 27 June 2020 7:40:10 AM
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Good Morning Paul,

And a good one it is here in Melbourne. The sun's
shining, the birds are singing, and my garden's in
full bloom, strangely in the middle of winter.

Anyway, it appears that the Swedes are rapidly losing
trust in the COVID-19 atrategy. Polls indicate that
political parties are demanding Sweden's strategy be
reviewed before the next election in 2022.

I guess this could be due to Sweden's death toll having
increased. Sweden's 5,230 deaths translates to a toll
per million inhabitants of 511, many times higher than
the corresponding totals in neighbouring Denmark (104),
Finland (59) , and Norway (47). All of whom imposed
strict confinements but lower than the 650 in the UK,
Spain's 606, and Italy's 573.

Sweden has also been slow to get its testing program
off the ground, with per capita rates significantly
lower than many European countries - although the number
of people tested for COVID-19 nearly doubled in June
hitting 60,000 last week.

As a result many countries who are now opening up to
tourism have banned Swedes from entry.

Who can blame them.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2020 11:30:42 AM
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Covid19 is now running rampant through much of America, Europe and Asia.
jimmy2shoes,

When you look at the increase of stupidity in the above places then COVID-19 is merely keeping up the pace !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:21:51 PM
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Have some of you not heard of the saying; "playing the long game".
As much as some of you may not want to hear it, it is entirely possible that this was a worthwhile plan, because in the end the same people will die, only it happened quicker and the economy and the rest of the population did not suffer unnecessarily.
You can do all the numbers and quote all the facts you want, ultimately it will all end up where it was going to end up at, unless a vaccine becomes available sooner than later.
Do you emotional jelly-brains understand what IS ACTUALLY going on here yet? or are you still living in a land far away in the annals of your mind.
Get it through your heads; those people who are susceptible to the virus, WILL DIE!
Your stupid emotional bleating about isolating, is NOT going to do anything except seriously compromise the healthy ones left without jobs, houses, families and futures.
Now who are the smart countries?
I'll say it again, with all our lockdowns/shutdowns and isolating, we have done NOTHING, only prolonged the inevitable.
Don't believe me?
Just follow the news reports, this will go on, even after some brainiac decides we have had no more cases/deaths after so many days/weeks.
We will end up with high, maybe not dissimilar numbers as the other countries, but if we keep up this isolation policy, it will be years instead of months.
Just accept that some things may be hard to take at first glance, but if one stops and actually considers ALL the alternatives, the hardest and least palatable ones often turn out to be the best ones.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:40:13 PM
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Al;trav,

So you've made plans for how and when you die ? That when the virus strikes you, you will slowly die basically of suffocation even if they put you on a ventilator ?

That's okay, your family will be crowding around since they too accept the inevitability of imminent and suffocating death. Some may soon develop symptoms even before you are in the ground, so they'll follow you in a week or two. Pity you can't be at their funeral too. Oh well, it's all inevitable.

As long as people can socialise before they die, shop, work, etc., make money - THEN they can die, is that it ?

And if there is no such thing as herd immunity, then we're all going to die from this virus eventually - long, suffocating deaths ? All of us ? If you have any loved ones, all of them too ?

Yeah, bugger social distancing and masks - masks are for wusses. Bring it on ! If Pussy Man isn't afraid, why should you be ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Saturday, 27 June 2020 1:33:18 PM
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The news coming out of the People's Republic of Victoria indicates that the resurgence of the China virus has a lot to do with good old multiculturalism. So many of the disparate tribes can't read or write the lingo they speak, so even with translations into their various lingos - at our expense - they don't understand.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 27 June 2020 1:44:12 PM
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ALTRAV

you may well be right and I think no one really knows. However I am sceptical as previously coronavirus have not wiped out everyone vulnerable. This one seems very contagious however in the past we have not had millions tested like this one. Stats will be simply used for political purposes with no real meaning. I agree the lockdown for any thinking person will be shown to be the biggest mistake if not fraud by Governments in history. The 'experts' and those using the virus to exploit have a lot to answer for. Personally though I will be called a nutjob (be called worse) I am extremely sceptical of the upcoming vaccine being heralded by Fauci, Gates and other population control freaks.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 27 June 2020 2:02:27 PM
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Loudmouth2, I can understand and empathise, and I do mean that, BUT, would you not give a little thought to the fact that, without a vaccine this virus has no end in sight.
I'm not saying social distancing and masks are for wusses, I am saying that those of us who are vulnerable, are only putting off the inevitable.
Cannot you see that even with all the precautions, eventually when all the social distancing restrictions and masks are removed, the vulnerable are going to come into contact with a carrier, albeit, a week, a month, a year, after they come out into the general population once more.
If you don't think they will be susceptible to the virus, please tell us why, so we can look to some, even small, kind of hope.
I nor anyone else with a modicum of maturity and sanity looks forward to death, so let us not speak in such terms again please.
Unfortunately, I am driven to consider ALL options and possibilities.
As to whether others agree with me or find my speculations and reasoning, offensive or confronting, I cannot allow myself to be affected or swayed, in the interest of attaining, and in search of, an answer or the truth.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 27 June 2020 2:59:11 PM
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Runner,

"Population control freaks' ?! According to your scenario, they want to find a way to prevent death (and thus indirectly maintain or boost population) and that's 'population control' ?

Forgive me for disagreeing with your prescription, but I suspect that the only way for any country, including the US, to control the spread of this virus, is strict lockdown, sooner or later, region by region, state by state, country by country. And of course the later it is attempted, the more difficult it all becomes.

Perhaps there will be a vaccine, but that seems unlikely. Perhaps like Altrav, you'll be okay, you will get herd immunity. Or perhaps there's no such thing as herd immunity ?

Clearly Sweden is doing far worse than Australia, the EU countries and the US too and they all may - as I've set out - have to impose strict lockdowns, sooner or later. And then they can painfully begin the long process - the longer the delay, the longer the process - of coming out of this crisis.

Perhaps Fauci is right, he's no idiot. But perhaps Trumpf is right, that all you have to do is shine a strong light up your arse and drink disinfectant. Give it a try, Runner :)

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Saturday, 27 June 2020 2:59:47 PM
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Altrav,

Yes, you may be right - there may not be a vaccine for this virus. We don't even have one for the common cold yet.

So yes, it may be that we have to get used to living with social distancing and masks for the rest of our lives. Yes, we can take our masks off, hug somebody, get the virus and die more quickly, but I'm in no hurry. This is our one and only life, there's no after-life, so we have to make the most of it.

Except for a handful of people, maybe 144,000, god's chosen ones, like Runner, of course. Lucky bastards :)

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Saturday, 27 June 2020 3:05:36 PM
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Joe,

I'm with you on this one.

When the virus spread to our country - our leaders
made a momentous decision. It was to save as many
human lives as possible. It was the right thing to do.

It showed that we as a nation care about human life
above everything else.

And they are now beginning to take small steps to
ease some of the restrictions. Which is also a good
thing. Small steps instead of opening the flood
gates.

In Victoria they are finding and isolating every new case.
They are employing rigorous contact tracing, social
is still being maintained and of course - ongoing travel
bans are to be kept in place. Face masks are also being
encouraged. This as you point out could well be the norm
for the future until - when and if a vaccine is found.
But it will be worth it to be careful instead of not.

Also in Victoria - the Premier is contacting the community
leaders of the diverse and various communities who
are most at risk with this virus to make sure that they
understand the steps they need to take in order to
prevent catching and spreading the virus. A sensible
step and precaution for us all.

Everything that could be done is being done.

And as I keep repeating. I am so glad that I live in
Australia. Our state and federal governments are to be
congratulated!
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2020 3:29:02 PM
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cont'd ...

I forgot to add that Victoria's Premier has engaged
people to go door-to-door in the hot spot areas
(as mentioned in the news) to test and instruct
residents in those hot spots in order not only to
test but to inform those people about what they need
to do to not catch and stop the spread of the virus.

Well-thought out plan of action.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2020 4:39:00 PM
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Victoria is now a leper state. New China virus outbreaks are occurring in suburbs where more than a third of residents were born in places like India, Sri Lanka, Iraq, China and Vietnam. Hooray for multiculturalism and tribalism and 'me-no-understandism'.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 27 June 2020 5:18:18 PM
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Ttbn,

If Victoria is a leper state, with one death over the past few weeks and case-numbers currently in double figures, how would you describe the situation in Sweden, the EU, the UK, Brasil or the US with, between them, case-numbers in the hundreds of thousands and deaths in the tens of thousands ? Flesh-wounds ?

Get a grip. Or maybe not ......

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Saturday, 27 June 2020 5:33:17 PM
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ttbn,

People from India, Sri Lanka, Iraq, China, Vietnam,
speak better English than you do. They're educated.
And have much to contribute.

As for tribalism?

The "We're British, you know" mentality only exists
among dinosaurs.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2020 6:49:04 PM
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Well despite all the usual nonsense we have more people with the virus in Victoria. Seems most will get over it but almost certainly everyone who gets it will have immunity for a long time. No second wave, no more deaths and politicians and idiot medico's still getting overpaid!
This is still the worst self inflicted economic disaster ever! Businesses and people destroyed, lots of bargains for Chinese communist billionaires to fight over and so many politicians to help them for even more money.
We are the worst governed and betrayed people in the world. My grandchildren will be paying for all you idiots and the politicians you support.
I wish the covid19 on the lot of you!
Posted by JBowyer, Saturday, 27 June 2020 7:25:48 PM
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JBowyer,

Banging your head on the table again
Are We?
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2020 7:29:35 PM
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Jeff,

In relation to the Coronavirus crisis, you have given us the sum-total of your knowledge:

" ...... We are the worst governed and betrayed people in the world."

Really? SA with no new cases - let alone deaths - for 32 days. Victoria with double-figure case numbers and one death in the last month or so. The US with tens of thousands of new cases reported (hey, let's stop reporting ! Then there will be almost no cases !) and 125,000 deaths so far.

So ..... our governments are 'the worst governed' ?

I wonder if some of you mongrels are being paid to spruik the US and Sweden against our record.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Saturday, 27 June 2020 7:44:09 PM
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Joe,

I wouldn't "describe the situation(s) in Sweden, the EU, the UK, Brasil or the US…". at all. I don't care about those countries. Unlike you, I don't use situations over which Australia has no control to excuse the nitwits stuffing up Australia.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 27 June 2020 8:06:57 PM
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Foxy not banging my head on anything just amazed at the total lack of common sense.
Bigmouth Not paid by anyone. The facts are we are heading for a real depression, massive unemployment and loss of income. Just think where all your bloated public service money actually comes from? Just think where jobs will come from? Think who will own most of Australia and it is not any of you or me!
I am still waiting for the real facts to come out. How many died in Australia each year for the last twenty years relative to the standing population of course. This will have to be hidden away because you will be revealed as people who were panicked by corrupt politicians and medicos who stole and corrupted our country. You should all be ashamed of your silly selves.
Posted by JBowyer, Saturday, 27 June 2020 8:13:26 PM
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JBowyer, you can see the kind of attitudes one has to tolerate on this forum.
It is beyond the pale as to how blind some people are to things.
Some refuse to see the truth, others discard the truth in favour of a more pleasant scenario as they either don't have the stones or the intellect, or even the maturity to handle the hard decisions.
You will find an abundance of virtue shamers here.
They all have an opinion, and most of them are too gutless to say it like it is, for fear of being criticised by anyone.
You will be considered a racist if you make ANY derogatory comments about anyone, especially if you single them out for something which obviously leads to them.
What is the saying?
"All Muslims are NOT terrorists, but ALL terrorists are Muslims".
Now obviously, taken literally that is not true, BUT, the saying is a light-hearted way of attempting to appease the PC pundits, and make a point in criticising terrorists.
We even have one on here who has once again just told us what we already know and have been told ad infinitum, as if we are all stupid and need to be reminded by her, over and over again.
I have warned her to stop printing direct quotes and comments of things we are already aware of, but to no avail.
She is patronising at the very least, and these are some of the sad and sorry souls you will have to contend with here on OLO.
So whatever you do, I suggest, don't let them get away with ANYTHING!
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 27 June 2020 8:19:35 PM
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JBowyer,

I'm not as pessimistic about things as you seem
to be. I don't believe in the doom and gloom
theories that are being bandied about by some.
I think our state and federal governments are
doing well. The steps that they are taking are
gradual small steps but that's better than just
opening the flood gates to the detriment of us
all.

In any case we shall have to see what the eventual
outcomes will be.

I'm beginning to learn on this forum - it's futile
to argue with some people. Best to just let them be
wrong. (smile).
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2020 8:21:08 PM
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Foxy, so finally we get a glimpse of your true persona.
So you and your running mates are right, and the rest of us are wrong?
Since when did we make OLO about you?
You show your hand by refuting the doom and gloom around you.
If things are so rosy and wonderful, why then IS there so much doom and gloom around you?
You can lie to yourself, but do not even thing about lying to the rest of us.
We actually notice what is going on around us and we do not under any circumstance lie or mis-lead just to make ourselves feel all warm and fuzzy inside, like yourself, apparently.
BTW, the only person arguing is you, we are commenting!
So in future, if you feel so inclined to argue, please direct your aggression at yourself, then you can see how futile it is trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 27 June 2020 8:48:36 PM
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'but perhaps Trumpf is right, that all you have to do is shine a strong light up your arse and drink disinfectant. Give it a try, Runner :)'

Joe

and perhaps Governor Cuomo inviting people to Chinese festivals and sending covid infected people into age care homes was a good idea. But don't let your obvious hatred and (TDS) and twisting of the truth stop your narrative Joe.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 27 June 2020 9:50:58 PM
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Sad really how the people on here are having a go at each other when no
one has certain knowledge on what is the best way to treat this virus.
The various governments have tried different protocols all to no avail.
Even Australia's technique of drawbridge raising has had good results,
so far. It could be it will leap out and bite us later.
Just be glad we are still alive and arfuing the toss.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 27 June 2020 10:38:18 PM
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Bazz, that is exactly the point.
I question the knee-jerk reaction to give immediate instructions to close borders, isolate and generally make it appear that what we are doing is going to stop the onslaught of this virus.
Well I'm not so sure about that.
It might have slowed it down considerably, but as we are seeing in the East, it is not stopping, and it will not stop, as long as we have carriers of the virus amongst us.
It has been a typically PC, political disaster, and those of you who think the govt made the right decision to act as quickly as it did, GROW UP!
I am telling you all right now, and I know some off you will not want to hear it.
The closing down of the state/country was the biggest betrayal any govt could have done to the people.
If you think that the death of a few compared to the devastation of the many is acceptable, then you are all lacking in common sense and seriously lacking in objectivity.
We are seeing the continuation of this pandemic, only with lock-down it will be in slow motion.
We are going to see many more deaths and casualties but not all from Covid 19.
Those of you with short visions, think that the only deaths and casualties are from the virus, well your way off.
Your narrow field of perception and imagination fails to see the millions who are out of work, with little or no income.
Yes millions, because we don't get the full or true picture, because little delicate Nancy's like yourselves can't handle the truth.
So just stop and think, what are all these people going to do once they run out of savings and resources and sold everything they could to stay afloat, and the last thing is trying to save their most treasured possession, the house, then where do they live?
Those of you who believe the govt did the right thing, will rue the day, in years to come when we will still be burying covid 19 deaths.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 27 June 2020 11:48:40 PM
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I can see from the ravings of the hard right, Il Duce is at it again, that following the medical advice was the wrong thing to do. Without the slightest evidence they promote the nonsense of herd immunity. Jumping onto the Trump bandwagon, they are supporting Trump's stupid notions on the virus, taking disinfectant, a bright light shone up the clackker, unproven malaria drugs, at least that one had a bit of a medical attachment.

With statements like "200,000 (dead) is a reasonable number" one can see the hard rights total lack of concern for the lives of their fellow man. Il Duce says; "the death of a few compared to the devastation of the many" In Trumps America the few is now over 128,000 with hundred more dying every day, case numbers are out of control.

Claims that "do nothing" is the best policy for the economy is not supported. In Britain where the Conservative government of Bug Ridden Boris took a haphazard approach to dealing with the virus, the results, both medically and economically, have been a disaster.

Il Duce believes; "trying to save their most treasured possession, the house" No Il Duce, their house is not their most treasured possession,THEIR LIFE IS!

Just to add; Australia owes a debt of gratitude to Professor Brendan Murphy who finished as our Chief Medical Officer on Friday. Professor Murphy has been a leader in the medical response to Covid-19, and in no small way its his, and his teams advice, which has helped guide Australia a relatively safe passage through the pandemic. WELL DONE BRENDAN MURPHY.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 28 June 2020 7:06:47 AM
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The people who think lock down is so good can continue! Announce yourselves! No travel and I do mean no travel and what about a sack cloth burkha and bell to ring whilst shouting out "Unclean, unclean"? Happy now?
The rest of us can take our chances and all the facts will eventually come out and you will ignore them as you will look so stupid. Brendan Murphy the new chief of the Health Dept will still get his pay rise and a magnificent and monstrously unearned pension. No chance of any punishment for that dolt! The man should have a statue erected as the dumbest and most destructive pest in Australian history. Plus not being any kind of a doctor.
Time will sort this out with no repercussions for any of the perpetrators. You fools will be paying as much as me so well done to you too!
Posted by JBowyer, Sunday, 28 June 2020 8:54:52 AM
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Paul, if your going to criticise me or my comments, at least have the guts to quote me properly.
Adding your little bits of irrelevant deflection, only make you look foolish and desperate, that you can't find enough justification and conviction in your response without the need to twist or manipulate the original text, content or intent of my original message.
If you don't want to be seen and remembered as an embarrassment, for all the obvious reasons, I would suggest you try again only this time read my comments and respond to them without adding your particular twist or flavour in an inane attempt to win/make a point not worth making in the first place.
To explain it to you as one would to your 5 year old grandson;
Leaving people to get on with their lives will not have changed the fact that those people who were going to die from the virus, were going to die.
Sure, my way it would have been sooner than later.
But that aside, as there is NOTHING that could be done to stop them from dying, it left the rest alive.
Had the living been left to carry on as usual, they would not have been affected in any way, and would simply get on with their lives, instead of what is happening now.
What's got your goat is the fact that you are afraid to die.
I'm sorry, but if your number is up, it's up, isolating is just like being a fugitive from the law.
Eventually they will catch up with you, hiding only prolongs the inevitable.
Now if you can't see the reasoning or point I'm trying to make, then you are just being stubborn and petulant.
I think I would have a better chance asking your 5 year old grandson, I'm sure he will see the logic in what I am saying.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 28 June 2020 9:00:16 AM
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https://www.facebook.com/An0malyMusic/videos/3066508396728989

just for you Joe in case you would like to be a little open minded
Posted by runner, Sunday, 28 June 2020 10:15:04 AM
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Bazz,

I don't think it's "sad" that people have a go at each other instead of just being content express an opinion; I think it's a stupid waste of time to be arguing the toss with people you know will never change their minds. If people don't like what I say, that's fine; if they have a go at me, that's fine, too. But I am not required to respond to them, and I will not respond to them - with the exception of Joe, often a great source of amusement. Actually, I generally only read the posts of people who have, more or less, the same opinions as my own. It's better to concentrate on people like ourselves than to stress over people who are not - in my opinion, of course.

When you don't rise to the bait often enough, or not at all, even the thickest of nagging posters eventually give up. There is one exception here, a sociopath who can't take a hint.

Most of us have been enjoying OLO long enough to know what we all think about everything. If we still think it's possible to change anyone's mind just by arguing with them, there are mindless branches of social media better suited to that futile activity.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 28 June 2020 10:18:07 AM
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Thanks for that six-week-old video - isn't it amazing what we can learn from our policy miscalculations ? Is Cuomo still doing that ?

So now that Cuomo has learnt how to properly handle this crisis, perhaps he can give some advice to Pussy Man, and some of the Republican governors where case-rates are now at all-time highs.

Will they take it ? Nah.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 28 June 2020 10:38:44 AM
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'Thanks for that six-week-old video '

yeah Joe nothing to see. One of numerous stuff ups by Cuomo sending covid patients into old peoples home. I mean it was six weeks ago. I know TDS makes you value life only if its lost to a Trump decision.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 28 June 2020 2:15:29 PM
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Well the big advantage of what Australia has done is that before it
comes out to get us we MAY have a vaccine and if so, if we are lucky
we will all have had an injection as an additional to the flu shots.
If we don't have a vaccine then we just watch and see, like now.
We are just buying time.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 28 June 2020 4:28:25 PM
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Dear Bazz,

Yet time is so precious.We should savor every moment
by spending it with those we love. Family, friends,
and neighbours.

When I watched my mother go down hill, time went by so
fast. It was too short a span.

Time I'll never get back.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 June 2020 7:19:48 PM
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Bazz, irrespective of what the airheads think or say, the reality is that the virus is not expected to be ready, or at least, of any use till next year, I think they need a minimum time frame to "wait and see" how/if it works.
I suggest that we just get on with our lives, and, as you say, "watch and see".
The cold hard reality is as I have said, that if you are susceptible to this virus, you are a target and sooner or later you will succumb to it.
What those who refute the suggestion of leaving the country open to trade and letting the people get on with their lives, don't realise is that what I'm suggesting is no different to what is going on anyway.
The oldies and the infirm are supposed to be isolated right now anyway, the only difference is that it leaves the rest of us, the healthy ones, to continue, which will work better for the oldies as well, so there are people out there who will be able to move around and help them while they are in isolation, even though they are still catching it and dying, locked away in places like aged care facilities, and we we all thought they would be safe there.
The economy and therefore the rest of the population will not have to suffer.
You wait and see, we may not get to some of the numbers we are seeing around the world, but it will EVENTUALLY reach similar numbers, no matter how much all the blowhards want to talk Australia up.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 28 June 2020 8:40:48 PM
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"Had the NSC been less cowed by medical advice and more aggressive in policing the border, Australia might have dodged the coronavirus bullet. That we came so close is entirely down to ignoring the medicos, not following their advice."

(Salvatore Babones, Quadrant Online, 'The Dizzy Doctors of the Covid Crusade', 28/6/20).

Read the full article. No paywall
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 28 June 2020 9:35:10 PM
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Sweden is a failed state due to political correctness.
That said, who actually gives a crap?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 29 June 2020 6:01:06 AM
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Hey ALTRAV,

"Bazz, irrespective of what the airheads think or say, the reality is that the virus is not expected to be ready, or at least, of any use till next year, I think they need a minimum time frame to "wait and see" how/if it works."

Watch this:

100s of millions of COVID-19 vaccine doses could be thrown out
http://youtu.be/S7tBe543sSk
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 29 June 2020 6:06:17 AM
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Dear Armchair Critic,

You said;

"Sweden is a failed state due to political correctness."

What?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 29 June 2020 9:50:19 AM
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Armchair Critic,

You asked - "Who actually gives a crap?"

(About Sweden being a failed state).

Well, I guess those of us who have relatives living
in that country, and the rest of us who value human
lives. It could be us next - right?

We're all watching to a certain extent what's happening
in other countries so that we can live and learn.

Of course we don't have all the answers as to how this is
going to end. But being negative doesn't help anyone.
And frankly it scares the heck out of me.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 29 June 2020 12:15:10 PM
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I think that Chairman Dan has shown that a left whinge state government that waves through mass rallies is incompetent at controlling Covid 19.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 2:27:09 PM
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Shadow Minister,

You're going to have to give us more details as
to why you think that the Victorian Premier is
incompetent - when no one else could do any more
than what the man is currently doing to contain
the spread of the virus.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 2:57:38 PM
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cont'd ...

Also you should note that Victoria is doing more
testing in the migrant communities and as a result
of this - more infections are being discovered.

Cities like Adelaide, Sydney, and Brisbane, even
Canberra also have large migrant communities.
If testing was also conducted in those communities
they may find surprising results.

It's all up to the efficiency of the state governments
and the transparency they do or do not want.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 3:32:26 PM
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Shadow Minister,

It's the behaviour and culture of certain communities
that ends up spreading the virus. Some people simply
refuse to play by the rules as we all know while
others don't understand the rules. It's a complex
situation.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 3:35:43 PM
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'It's the behaviour and culture of certain communities
that ends up spreading the virus'

that's certainly not what you said about the US Foxy. Have you changed your mind again?
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 3:51:59 PM
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runner,

I said many things about the situations in the USA.

You'll have to refresh my memory to which ones
you're referring so that I can stop and explain the
context to you.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 3:55:51 PM
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Has Trump lost his marbles? Seems he has been making abusive phone calls to American allies, including the French President and the Canadian Prime Minister, as well as ScumO' Morrison in Australia. Not so to his Moscow buddy buddy Vlad Putin, as reports surface that the Russians paid Taliban fighters in Afghanistan foe killing American soldiers, like two despots in a pod! Its reported Trump was made aware of this in writing in briefings as far back as February this year. All denied by the White House of course, but they wont confirm or deny the February briefing report. Strange one that one.

On the cornavirus front in the US Texas and Florida have gone off the "Richter Scale" for new infections. What is Dangerous Doctor Donald doing about it, absolutely nothing.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 6:51:25 PM
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In the US, these days, around forty thousand new cases of Covid-19 (i.e. the virus strain identified in 2019, Donald) are being detected each day, meaning that there could be around four hundred thousand actual new cases each day.

By mid-July, it's very likely that 100,000 new cases are being detected each day (i.e. a million new actual cases each day). How on earth can that many be tracked ? That suggests that at least a million Americans will be under medical treatment at any one time, provided of course that the numbers don't rise. At what point does the entire hospital system become overwhelmed ?

Ah, don't worry, the weak won't survive, that's just social darwinism, herd immunity will kick in. And of course, as we all know, there are plenty of low-intelligence Americans, especially in all those hole-in-the-wall hick states.

But the good news (?) is that Australians can freely travel to Europe, like enlightened countries like Rwanda and Thailand - but not like sh!thole countries, with sh!thouse 'leaders' like in the US.

I'm certainly glad that I don't live in a sh!thole country like the US.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 8:09:10 PM
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Paul, loudmouth, as far as abusing anyone like the French and Canadian Prime Ministers are concerned, they are but two of the biggest idiots out there, so before you bag ole' Mr T, if you haven't been following these two, you will find that Mr T is not alone in the race for the mental stakes.
These two are by far the worst of their kind in ages, so no prize there.
I could think of many other leaders, who are just as bad, it's only that they know how to sell and make sure they don't look bad.
Mr T on the other hand, complete with faults, is no different than them, only he doesn't know it and doesn't try to hide it.
I can't believe how many idiots and halfwits are running the world these days.
And as for the next possible President of America, Biden?
Really?
They can't be serious, given he's their preferred challenger, I think I'll stick with Mr T.
What is the world coming to?
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 10:25:37 PM
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Foxy,

If you want to know why I and many others think that Chairman Dan is incompetent, you only need to look at how the rest of Aus feels it needs to protect themselves from Victorians.

That Dan was inconsistent with the application of lockdown is the reason that Victoria is in the poo, not the minority groups. Sydney has similar groups with no problems.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 2 July 2020 2:48:44 AM
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SM, all governments have made mistakes when dealing with the pandemic. The most serious have been in NSW by the Berejiklian government, how did that Hazed of a minister keep his job? The 'Ruby Princess' and 'Newmarch House' debacles , both of these failures cost significant numbers of lives.

The indicators are the failure in Victoria can be put down to the use of private contractors at hotel quarantine. Your free enterprise does it again, cut costs, low wages, untrained employees, make a fast buck, bugger the community.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 2 July 2020 5:48:58 AM
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Paul,

Mistakes were made, but the stupendous cock up in Victoria dwarfs that of the Ruby princess. As firstly the decision to release the RP's passengers was based on a false health assertion by the ship's doctor, and secondly the crisis was just starting. After imposing the most severe lock down in Aus Chairman Dan couldn't help virtue signalling and threw the sacrifices made by Victorians down the crapper.

To sum things up:

"How are the mighty fallen. Until just recently it seemed that if there were one figure in Australia who could crush the COVID virus by pure power of will it was Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews. Now he is presiding over an infection rate higher than Italy’s and has been driven to restore lockdown measures for some Melbourne suburbs that have recorded an alarming exponential spike in the spread of the virus. And the way Victorians rank his handling of the virus, according to Newspoll, has dropped dramatically.

There was talk for a while of calling out the army. There has been the recruitment of corrective services staff to administer hotel quarantines which have been so woefully handled under Andrews’s watch that he is establishing an inquiry.

Meanwhile, quite a few people in Melbourne’s north and west, many of whom have ethnic backgrounds, have been refusing to have tests. No doubt they have their own reasons to be wary of the state, but couldn’t Andrews have worked through community leaders — imams, priests, whoever — to make these recalcitrant people more amenable? Now he’s been driven to talk tough again and to impose new quarantine measures that take affect from Thursday. He is also imposing strategic booze bus-style checks on the part of the police and on-the-spot fines."
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 2 July 2020 8:23:34 AM
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This nonsense will result in so many people having to fight the facts for years to come. Covid 19 was just another virus and certainly a lot weaker than many flu strains. It killed a lot less people and the people dying are mostly older than 85 and at that age we are always on borrowed time.
The MSM stupidity and dishonesty will be acknowledged by history. the medico's will be bought to account in the next few years and every politician will suffer at their next election day.
The only time I have read about lock downs is in Africa when faced with ebola like fevers with a ninety percent kill rate. There the afflicted village puts up signs that they have it and everyone stays away.
We are still suffering hysteria and willful destruction of the Australian economy which we will suffer for years and I will remember you idiots and remind you of your rank stupidity as long as I can.
Check out the mortality figures, it is making a mockery of all your arguments but I expect it to take years to unfold.
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 2 July 2020 8:40:07 AM
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Shadow Minister,

I stopped reading your post after the "Chairman Dan,"
reference. So yesterday.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 2 July 2020 10:32:11 AM
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Sort of BTT:

Good news ! The virus is about to disappear ! Here's the authority on it all:

"President Trump said Wednesday that he believed the virus was “going to sort of just disappear,” even as cases are rapidly rising nationwide — and added that he was “all for masks,” even though he has rarely worn one himself, mocked people who do, and has questioned the benefits and even the political meaning of face coverings.

“I think we’re going to be very good with the coronavirus. I think that at some point, that’s going to sort of just disappear, I hope,” Mr. Trump said in an interview on Wednesday with the Fox Business Network.

It is a claim he has made before. On Feb. 27, when there were still few known cases in the United States, he said at a White House meeting: “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” There are now more than 2.6 million known cases in the nation, and there have been more than 127,000 deaths.

On Wednesday Mr. Trump said, “I think we’re going to have a vaccine very soon, too.”"

Well, thank god for that. For a while, I thought we might have a crisis with 2.6 million known cases, and 128,000 American deaths so far and new record daily cases. What do those so-called 'experts' like Fauci know ? Anyway, isn't that an Eyetalian name ?

And if in doubt, just grab a flashlight, or a bottle of Dettol.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 2 July 2020 10:59:16 AM
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Joe,

Lets get serious for a moment.

We all criticize President Trump - and rightly so.
However, do you really think that Biden has a
chance of winning at the next US election?

The same as - do you think that Albanese is
in with a chance in this country? Seriously?

We can criticize all we like - but at present -
I think there's not much chance of any leadership
changes either in the US or here.

Do you?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 2 July 2020 11:17:32 AM
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Foxy,

To help you finish my posts I will use smaller words. It will help you understand why Chairman Dan's popularity is crashing.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 2 July 2020 11:31:39 AM
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Shadow Minister,

You should think twice before you say nothing.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 2 July 2020 11:35:06 AM
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Shadow Minister,

Your sniping against Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews
defines reason.

Australia's health response to the global pandemic
has been superb to date, for whatever combination of
factors including geography, early social restrictions,
the national cabinet process and brave health advice.

The economic recovery will be slow, painful, and
complicated. But we'll get there.

You need to stop listening to the various critics,
mostly the Murdoch media. Andrews is just doing his job.
After all voters expect their governments to work through
issues using evidence, to be honest about the complexity
of the challenges involved, and to protect the health
and well-being of their people.

Voters even like governments of different political hues
to work together if possible.

But voters loathe attempts at transparent point-scoring
especially during times of emergency.
And let us not forget that voters do and will forgive
inevitable mistakes that are made for the greater good.

So old chum. Back off in your critiques.
It's a rather poor show - blaming a man for doing his job
to the best of his ability.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 2 July 2020 12:03:24 PM
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Foxy, once more you repeat the obvious with monotonous and continual regularity.
By simply writing what EVERYONE in the world has known for months, you are being arrogant and patronising.
If you don't have anything new to offer, or at least a comment worthy of our attention, I suggest not saying anything at all.
As far as SM goes, he has his reasons for his comments.
Just because you feel as though you are anointed as the forums overseer, does not mean you have any overarching rights over the rest of us.
SM's comments are in fact more interesting than your plagiarising or platitudes.
So old chum. Back off in your critiques. It's a rather poor show, blaming a man for speaking his mind doing his job, (on the forum), to the best of his ability.
Sound familiar?
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 2 July 2020 1:04:28 PM
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ALTRAV,

Your opinion is irrelevant here. I was addressing
Shadow Minister's critique of the Premier of Victoria.
A state in which I happen to live. Why is Shadow
Minister's opinions more valid than mine? And what
you think has no bearing in this matter to either Shadow
Minister or myself. Our discussion has nothing to do
with you.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 2 July 2020 1:48:19 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

How was Andrews inconsistent with applying restrictions and how has that led to an increase in infections?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 2 July 2020 6:19:20 PM
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Ah, Foxy,Foxy, you don't learn do you?
My opinion is not only relevant here, it is an actual pre-requisite to even being here.
You see, as much as you would like to have this medium all to yourself, YOU CAN'T!
Now as the post is about Sweden and it losing it's allure, I think there is some relevance in SM's opinions to this topic, in that your beloved Andrews has possibly also lost his allure?
Why it is your very own opinion that you all criticise President Trump, do any of you live in the USA?
NO, yet you all have the temerity to comment and criticise.
Do you want to try to talk your way out of this one?
Personally I admit not knowing or giving a damn about your beloved Premier that you seem so besotted or enamored with, only that he is just another filthy con-man who, like his other state contemporaries, has sheeple like your good-self, sucked in.
I am only concerned that you might choke on that hook, line and sinker.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 2 July 2020 6:42:36 PM
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Good Evening Everyone,

What we're seeing in Victoria are a few setbacks.
And what makes it particularly difficult is that
they've come at a time when everyone was expecting
restrictions to be lifted - and for things to
progress back to normal.

In all fairness however - we've seen elsewhere
around the world how badly things have been handled. For
example we've seen how the British PM has handled
things inexpertly. Not to mention the chaos in the
United States and the shambolic government of US
President Trump.

Compared with most people in positions of responsibility
the Victorian Premier has done well. However, as we know
from pandemics of this size there are bound to be hiccups.
However, it is hard to imagine anyone better equipped to
" battle on" than Mr Daniel Andrews - and even the conservative
newspaper - The Australian - agrees.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 2 July 2020 7:45:04 PM
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Andrews is a total tool! He has never worked a real job in his life always been dictated to by the unions. Beholden to the Firefighters Union especially and in the meantime delivering us a poorer service. With Andrews it is all politics until he retires in his forties with a full pension and a Chinese job. He should get that for signing us up to a secret deal with a repressive communist regime that is actually run by a mafia of billionaire generals.
Still Foxy is on his side!
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 2 July 2020 7:50:52 PM
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Jack,

You might need to be a bit more specific ........ otherwise you come across (please forgive me) as a complete raver. Get help to find your medication ASAP !

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Thursday, 2 July 2020 7:59:07 PM
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Foxy,

Considering that this thread was started essentially as a sniping attempt at conservatives I think your taking umbridge is somewhat unwarranted.

The point is that after one of the strictest lock downs Andrews has seriously screwed it up, and the results speak for themselves with roughly 90 of all new cases in Aus in Melbourne and Victorians are the ones going to pay for it with a screwed up economy.If various ethnic groups got the wrong message, it was largely due to mixed messages from Labor.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 3 July 2020 3:02:25 AM
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Shadow,

You say; "this thread was started essentially as a sniping attempt at conservatives". Its conservatives such as Trump and Johnson who have let their countries, and the world, down through their conservative inaction when this pandemic first broke back in February. In times of crises you don't need clowns running the show. Initially it looked like Morrison was going to be one of those clowns as well, with his "I'm going to the fotty!" nonsense. Fortunately it was the state Premiers who said "Wait a minute ScumO' this is much more serious than going to the football, action must be taken now!" Andrews in Victoria was in the forefront when it came to that call. Top marks also goes to the Liberal Premiers in South Australia and Tasmania for their response. Berejiklian in NSW has been hamstrung by having a totally incompetent Health Minister in Hazzard. He's got the right name, he certainly is a hazard when it comes to his handling of the cornavirus, 'Ruby Pricess','Nightmarch House' showed his incompetence, should have been sacked for both of them.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:07:15 AM
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Paul,

As usual, just more of your fatuous drivel. That the UK's infection rate is roughly the same as France, Italy, Spain etc seems to have escaped you.

That the poster boy for the Aussie left, "Disease Dan" after talking so tough shat the bed so spectacularly as to have other states blockade Victoria shows that your premise is complete bollocks.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 3 July 2020 10:50:54 AM
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Shadow Minister,

Quite frankly I don't think that any one else can do a better
job than what our governments have done and what they are
currently doing. Federal and state, both.

In these difficult times, times of uncertainty, we need
to build up our confidence not tear it down in people
who are doing their jobs.

We are all in this together and we shall survive, or not
depending on our own actions.

So, chin up.

Take care.
And stay safe.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 3 July 2020 11:18:35 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

I directly asked you the following;

How was Andrews inconsistent with applying restrictions and how has that led to an increase in infections?

Yet here you are using words like “Disease Dan” and putting up Furphies rather than address it. You really have little substance to offer on this except for scripted platitudes and nasty asides.

You called this thread sniping of the right. No, it is holding you lot to account. If the mentality of many of the hard right on this forum had prevailed then Australia would likely have experienced deaths in the 10s of thousands.

I read this recently and it sums things up so neatly I thought it was worth reproducing here.

“If you've ever built a personality around gleefully “offending liberals,” here's what you need to know: we aren't offended. You haven't hurt our feelings or made us cry. You sound like children to us, and we are sick of responding over and over to your infuriatingly stupid talking points, but we keep doing it because people's lives might seriously be at stake if the wrong kind of idiocy is allowed to spread too far. You are not erudite debaters “owning the libs”. You're the rotten annoying little kids kicking the backs of our seats while we're trying to keep the car on the road.”
Jesse Adams 2020
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 3 July 2020 11:20:13 AM
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Steele,

Perhaps 'real men' should be urged not to wear face-masks, and to congregate closely together in pubs and at football matches - while wimpy people like you and me should be urged to wear masks, socially-distance, lock-down, etc. Then, after say, six months, we'll see whose policies have worked best.

But I suspect that the 'real men' on this forum are safely locked away at home with their fifty rolls of toilet paper, watching Fox News. They'll do okay.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Friday, 3 July 2020 12:49:19 PM
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Loudmouth2, I wish to repeat a posting I did earlier.
It went something like this;
This virus will eventually catch up with anyone and everyone who is susceptible to it, (the aged, the infirm) you know, the usual suspects.
Now if I understand this scenario correctly, it matters not what protections and avoidance methods we all choose to adopt, those of us who are in the "doomed" bracket, WILL eventually fall victim to this damn virus.
So even though I don't have an issue with people trying to, "not get caught", I sadly feel that it is inevitable.
I akin it to someone being chased by the law.
They can hide for as long as they can, but eventually they WILL get caught.
So as awful as my words, or at least their outcome suggests, I'm sorry, but Sweden's way just MIGHT turn out to be the right way.
I'm talking mainly on behalf of those who will not be affected by the virus, but will suffer far greater and far longer because of the shutdowns.
I realise that it appears that Sweden has chosen to turn their backs on the old and infirm, but I must remind people they come from a very pragmatic and objective base, even though they have feelings but they don't let them interfere with seeking the most appropriate answer commensurate with the problem at hand.
So let's say, they weighed up the rationale of losing the old and infirm, which ultimately MIGHT NOT have survived the post COVID 19 lifestyle or the expected hardships, in favour of saving the many millions more healthy people that would have suffered post COVID 19, if they decided to lock-down/shut-down.
I am expecting the numbers internationally to rise dramatically, not because they did not shut down quick enough, but because if the mix of people are similar around the world, we MUST get similar outcomes, lock-down or not.
Eventually the vulnerable will succumb. (if they don't find a successful vaccine and it actually works, in time to save what vulnerable people are left)
Just a thought.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 1:31:56 PM
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Altrav,

I wish you could change your thinking on this topic. Still, when you go, how do you be want to be sent off ? Buried, or cremated ? This year ? Next year ?

Is it possible that, if the virus is not in a particular locality, nobody will get it there ? It's not simply 'everywhere', it's carried by someone. So, of course, if an area has been declared to be virus-free, and somebody from elsewhere comes in with the virus, then of course away it will go again.

I'm amazed how people can still be coming into Australia with the virus. How stupid or slack are we ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Friday, 3 July 2020 1:58:36 PM
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ALTRAV, who do you remind me of, the man with the funny moustache. If we suppose you are correct, with buckets loads of pragmatism and objectivity, how should we treat those in the inevitable "doomed" category, about 500,000 Australians aged 85 and over. Having this inevitable "doomed" lot inefficiently cluttering up hospital beds, taking valuable medical resources from those who would otherwise recover, selfishly consigning some temporally sick younger people to a possibly early death. Having these old people living a few more wasted years of unnecessary consumption, waiting for the inevitable, its just not cricket! Surely there must be a more efficient way of dealing with the burdensome load of old people. After all we are only talking about half a million, 2% of the population, and maybe an ongoing problem of a few thousand a month to deal with. Do you have any suggestion for a final solution to this economically and socially inefficient human conundrum?
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 3 July 2020 2:13:59 PM
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Loudmouth2, my pragmatic and practical part of my make-up has found that if someone/something is out to get you, you will eventually be gotten.
Like anyone else, I would prefer to die in my sleep, after that you can do whatever you like with the object resembling a human, because I am dead, I won't be there anymore, so in reality the word "I", is superfluous.
All I am saying is that anyone who isolates, or insulates themselves from others, are not stopping the transmission of the virus, nor are they stopping themselves from catching it.
There are carriers, as I understand it, and they don't even know they have it as in more cases than not, it is not obvious.
That is all I'm trying say, that maybe, just maybe, Sweden has done the right thing by getting the deaths out of the way sooner and in doing so protected the rest of the population, who are not susceptible, and more relevantly and importantly, to them, the economy
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 2:17:17 PM
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Paul, sorry but given the task to resolve or solve this conundrum, I believe I can.
But the problem is not the solution, but the reaction of the public, to the solution, just as you and others have demonstrated.
There-in lies one of the problems with democracy.
You simply can't ask the people to make decisions, because you will end up offending someone.
It's only natural, or human nature, because there are too many views and varying opinions, and they are all starting from a different base, so it's not possible to get consensus.
I think this forum serves as an example to what I am saying.
I don't want to kill off the elderly.
Don't forget what age bracket I am in, so I'm not condoning suicide, or some variant of it.
Personally, even though it'is not relevant here, is that I would gladly give up my life for my family to be spared, but we are not talking about that kind of scenario.
We are talking about this criminal called COVID 19, and it is relentless in it's attack on certain people, but no matter where you hide EVENTUALLY you WILL come into contact with it.
Without the vaccine (and even then) you do not stand a chance.
It will find those who it will kill, and spare those who it cannot harm.
So why would you like to witness your children, grandchildren, or family suffer for many years, because of the social and financial ruin of the shutdowns, even if you survived in the short term knowing you ARE going to die sooner or later by the hand of the virus?
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 2:39:28 PM
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It makes no sense to do nothing. to open up our
lockdowns, do away with the restrictions because
death is inevitable. In the meantime - let those
who want to do business - go right ahead because if they
don't they will suffer - and if they carry on as normal
they will die anyway - so if they're going to die anyway
what difference does it make if they die rich or poor?

Wow! The logic in that thinking is mind-blowing.

But hey folks, you heard the solution right here first!

BTW: On the news - Sweden opened up - and now regrets it!
But it's too late.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 3 July 2020 3:58:48 PM
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During the bombing of English cities during the
Second World War the government made a big effort
to move children and sick people into safe rural areas.
These people would have died eventually any way - so
why move them to safety? If that sort of thinking would
have prevailed then - think how many more lives would have
been lost.

Why have vaccines? Why have tests for diseases? Why build
hospitals? lets spend our money on getting rich and
living better? (for the time being). Death is after all
inevitable. Right?
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 3 July 2020 4:06:42 PM
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Foxy, I don't know why you bother.
Now I'm going to embarrass you once again.
And don't try to deflect, because you know very well what the commentors are going to think of you, AGAIN!
Right, firstly, do you think I am as twisted and insecure as you that I don't know what I mean when I write these comments?
Sure I don't have a Masters Degree in English or speech writing, for that I don't apologise or care.
What I do have is, unlike you and many others, the ability to read a problem and find the most efficient way of resolving or fixing it.
I've been doing it all my life as part of my work.
Now if you will, not that you will, go back and read the posting you have critiqued and misquoted me on, and this time read it without the BIAS, and you will see that I,.........no stuff it, YOU do the work, I'm not playing your stupid games.
If you don't like me or what I write, please, move on.
Foxy, honestly, if your childish immaturity is affecting your powers of reasoning as you have just demonstrated, I think you might need to have a good look at yourself and your beliefs.
I tell you what, seeing as how you are at an emotional dis-advantage, I will quickly explain what I am attempting to say, in precise form.
Those old and sick are going to die if the virus catches up with them, there is no escape or denying it.
Those who are young and healthy, are not going to die.
So, my point is, why should the young and healthy suffer because of the shut-downs, when the virus will not affect them, but a shutdown WILL DESTROY THEM, emotionally, then physically and many others who rely on them.
Now do you get the point finally.
And if you can't see the logic or reasoning in that, then it is you who has the problem.
The other overarching fact also, was that I always presented these scenario's as questions rather than fact.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:11:57 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

Mea culpa.

It's all my fault, I realise that now.

Your insight into me - has revealed so much

You've opened up my eyes, Oh Wise One.

You're right I have led such a sheltered life.

Kept my nose in all those books. Totally out of touch
with reality. Not capable of solving problems of any
kind.

I bow to your wisdom, knowledge and expertise.

Everyone here should pay attention to what you say
and take notes.

Bravo!
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:20:17 PM
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Altrav,

Problems:

1. says who the young are somehow immune ?

2. and even if young people don't get obvious symptoms, what's to stop them being carriers and infecting others, including other young people, who in turn infect other people, and so on ?

As I understand it, there are: (a) people with obvious symptoms; (b) people who are a-symptomatic, they have the virus in their bodies but don't appear to be sick; and there are (c) carriers who may be (b).

If the virus isn't around, nobody gets sick; if the virus is around, i.e. in someone's body or on a surface that they touch, then they may pass it on to someone else.

So a complete lock-down may continue until nobody within a region has the virus. Then the lock-down can be eased.

Have I got that right ?

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:27:27 PM
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Foxy, again?
In your haste to score a point you completely go off the reservation in a moment of heightened emotion.
Your example is way off track.
You see my dear, the bombs or the Germans were not a virus.
They were a threat or nuisance, albeit to life and limb, but the difference was that the "vaccine" arrived in the ending of the war.
Now it has been forecast ad-nauseam that this virus is in people and they don't even know they carry it, yet they are infectious.
So unlike the war, which you could hide from the enemy eventually when you came out, your chances of survival were better than before.
With COVID 19, when you come out eventually, as you will, you are still at risk, nothing has changed, only unlike being faced by an enemy soldier you could be faced by a family member who is the carrier, and so you die.
Now do you finally get it?
It has been said a thousand times that even if they come up with a vaccine, there is little confidence in it's ability to perform as expected.
This virus is one of those that traditionally are difficult to ward or vaccinate against, so good luck with trying stop it.
I will say that if the numbers coming in from around the world are any indication of the death rate, lock-downs will only prolong the inevitable.
I hope you guys make a note of my prediction as I predict this is going to be the real deal, where the phrase, "going viral", came from or intended for.
A lot more people are going to die, and at this stage it does not seem to be slowing, lock-downs and all.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:36:26 PM
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Il Duce me old chum! What about the "final solution", I'm on board, 85+ and its up up and away! Now we got to talk efficiency, none of this hanging around down at "Gods Waiting Room" gobbling up valuable resources, playing bingo etc. My logic tells me we can "process" 100,000 a month, one "processing plant" for each state, big ones in NSW and Victoria of course. It will take about 6 months to get up to "full capacity", and then another 6 months to "complete operations". Then we can scale down opes to "process" the necessary 3,000 to 4,000 per month on a continuing part time bases. How does that stand with you? BTW do you like strawberries, work that one out.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:44:15 PM
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Loudmouth2, I don't know the answer to your question, but as I understand it, no matter how much you hide from the public right now, when you eventually have to come out for watever reason, you will be interacting with people.
They can't stay isolated from everyone forever, so when they do even a year later, the carriers are still out there contaminating everything, even though it appears that there are no more deaths.
The only way for us to be completely safe and clear of any risk of infection, is when the virus has been completely destroyed from dormant carriers as well, and that apparently is impossible and will never happen, so I understand.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:45:27 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

It's no use your explaining things to me.

I'm just a female. I'm not capable of understanding
all the complications involved.

I don't have a big brain like you all I can do is
dance to your tune:

"A girl went back to Napoli
Because she missed the scenery
The native dances and the charming songs
But wait a minute somethings wrong ...

Hey Mambo! Mambo Italiano
Go, Go, Go...

You mixed up Sicialiano
All you Calabraise - a do the mambo like a crazy with a
Hey mambo, don't want a tarantella
Hey mambo, no more mozzarella
Hey mambo Mambo Italiana

Try an enchilada with da fish a bac a lab and then a
Hey Goombah I love a how you dance a rhumbah
But take some advice paisano
Learn how to mambo
If you're gonna be a square
You ain't a gonna go nowhere

Hey mambo! Mambo Italiano
Go Go Joe ...
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 3 July 2020 6:58:14 PM
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Errr, OK? Ummm, ahhh, well I think someone might have tasted a little too much of the GRAPPA, and I'm not sure whether she is serenading me in a good or amorous way, or simply tipsy with happy juice.
Either way she sounds happy, and that's a good thing, whew, I can also do with a break.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 7:13:07 PM
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Joe as a person who foams at the mouth and is incapable of rational thought when someone mentions Trump you have a hide! Tonight I learn in Victoria for six extra patients in ICU we have built 75 new ICU beds with respirators. No deaths? Anyone feeling a tiny little bit foolish now?
No more deaths yet lets ensure the last vestiges of our economy and jobs is snuffed out. You do know that this economy is what pays for our deadbeat politicians and public service?
As I originally pointed out this is the greatest own goal in History. You idiots will kill ten times more people than the virus because of all the reasons you have been told time and again. I understand Chow Mein Andrews with the promise of a bit fat pension and an even bigger Chinese pay off job but you guys and gals have got me beat.
Ah well time will prove your wrong headed thinking but so many others will suffer from your rank stupidity!
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 3 July 2020 7:23:06 PM
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JBowyer, not to join the echo chamber but, there seems to be a very stubborn attitude by some, who refuse to even consider things from other angles.
I don't know whether it is a lack of vision or courage, in that they are afraid of the scenarios that are bad or uncomfortable to accept.
It is confusing to someone like me because I don't speak of the obvious or the known, but I instead question the alternatives and speculate on the unknown and the what if's.
Some of these propositions are apparently too much to handle for a few fairies on this forum, so try not to be too concerned, that is until it's time to vote.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 3 July 2020 8:06:48 PM
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Jerry,

I'll get it right eventually.

No, I don't foam at the mouth at the antics of Trumpf, but I do get a laugh sometimes. The Lone Ranger ? Bugger, there goes my image of Pussy Man in his pink cape. Maybe he can wear both. But every day seems to bring new and unexpected entertainment. So many times, I catch myself with my mouth hanging open in wonderment, as I'm sure many people experience.

As for over-capacity of our health system, I think it's a brilliant idea, if only because, when the US health system starts to fall apart under the strain of fifty thousand new cases each day, day after day, it will need all sorts of equipment flown over pronto.

But of course, you think it's all a hoax ? 128,000 US deaths (and counting) ius a hoax ? Ten million cases all over the world and it's a hoax ? Surely the news gets to you, even in the wilds of the NT ? But just deny or ignore whatever you don't like to hear: after all, if it works for Trumpf ......

Just keep the laughs coming, Pussy Man.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Friday, 3 July 2020 8:55:07 PM
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Dear jbowyer,

You pontificate;

"No more deaths yet lets ensure the last vestiges of our economy and jobs is snuffed out."

What utter hyperbolic nonsense.

Why are you doing it? How unconnected with reality do you need to be to be crapping on in such a foolish manner.

If you would rather take your chances in a place like Trump's America then you are welcome to it. But to be constantly disparaging the very measures which have kept thousands of Australian alive rather thank coughing up blood with their dying gasps is just inane.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 3 July 2020 8:58:57 PM
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There you go again Joe making up stuff! You should up your medication. Since I was 5 years old people have been telling me I am going to die and you know what, it gets closer every time. As soon as people start with the end of the world nonsense I think idiot Joe an idiot SR. SR, "Foaming blood" a bit florid surely?
Remember what Billy Clinton said? "Its the economy stupid"! You two as well as the others will get a healthy reminder of the good sense of those words before the end of the year. You will also be able to show your compassion to all the suffering poor sods and their complaints.
It is all your fault, every ninety year old, taken too soon, with their whole life before them lol!
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 3 July 2020 9:22:07 PM
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no foaming at the mouth regarding who from Joe. I mean the leader of who did tweet their was no human to human transmission, China handled the situation well and that Trump was racist for stopping flights from Wuhan. But these simple facts get in the way of Joe's and CNN narrative. Not a bad idea also from Cuomo to empty the hospital and send the diseased into old people's homes. TDS certainly prevents any rational thinking.
Posted by runner, Friday, 3 July 2020 10:02:44 PM
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Did see an ad for 'Glen 20' where the manufacture is claiming it kills the Covid-19 virus. Please don't tell the Dangerous Doctor Donald, he might say "Big news, very big...Glen 20 will defeat the Kung flu, this is very big... great news....20 million cans are on order."
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 4 July 2020 6:34:47 AM
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SR, King of the fatuous, Chief apologist for the incompetent,

Your modus operandi of asking for proof (without doing so yourself) then trying to nitpick the details sometimes helps you cloud the issue, here are some of the real and undeniable examples of Disease Dan's incompetence.

"All Australians see inconsistency as the badge of unfairness. Victorians were fined for playing tennis (which authorities seemed not to accept is a non-contact sport played on 200sq m of land with a physical barrier between opponents) and yet they could queue endlessly for a morning coffee. And no one missed the message when protesters gathered for a Black Lives Matter rally in Melbourne. “I’m not going to the protest,” Andrews said. “I would suggest to other people they shouldn’t go to the protest either.” Many thousands did. None was fined. The protesters were well-intentioned but the wider community is not always good at distinguishing between important social causes and behaviour that is driven by less pressing community and individual needs and interests.

Not only are the Victorian rules not proportionate nor adapted to stopping the spread of the virus, they have been applied inconsistently. Since the lockdown began the institutions that had links to COVID cases were named by the government, including schools, medical clinics and restaurants. The only exception to this was the outbreak at Cedar Meats, which saw the state’s biggest virus cluster. This was named only after the government’s hand was forced by reports the owner of Cedar Meats had been a significant donor to the ALP."
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 4 July 2020 6:51:54 AM
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Shadow, yet you wont accept 2700 people leaving the 'Ruby Princess' unchecked, along with the 'Newmarch House' fiasco. Both of these debacles led to a substantial number of deaths. the ultimate responsibility for these failures rest with the incompetent NSW Health Minister Hazzard who should resign.

The big mistake in Victoria was letting some two bob private security firm gets its fingers in the pie to make a quid for itself with Covid-19, it had no interest in protecting the community. Good to see the government acted quickly and booted them. If the inquiry shows the security mob were negligent, then jail time for its principles would be in order. As it should be for some in NSW over their failures.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 4 July 2020 7:39:01 AM
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