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The Forum > General Discussion > What is the future of Australianness?

What is the future of Australianness?

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We've recently had discussions on China,
Chinese influence in Australia and what should
be done about it.

I thought it might be interesting to have a
discussion on what is the future of
Australianness?

What defines Australia. What creates it, represents it,
and makes it what it is?

Your thoughts please
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 1:56:50 PM
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Unfortunately the future of Australia is division leading to weakness

left versus right
globalist versus nationalist
alarmism versus rationalism
morality versus perversion
corruption in politics at all time high
those on public purse now pitted against those making an honest living

family members dobbing in family members for lying on the beach
kids dobbing in parents for not agreeing with groupthink
experts like Greta listened to while real experts defunded (Peter Ridd)

as families self destruct so does the nation. Very well helped along by our national broadcasters.

Meanwhile totalitarian regimes like China, Russia and Islamic nations wait for us to collapse
Posted by runner, Thursday, 21 May 2020 3:58:33 PM
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Australianess has to be a dynamic cultural process, as it has always been.

While i won't say there are no concerns with some aspects of immigrant behaviour, Australia has constantly evolved to reflect its dynamic culture inspired by many diffeent peoples.

For example, when i was young, soccer was referred to wog ball, now it is embraced.

And our cullinary habits have moved far from the occasional Chinese shop outing on a weekend.

All Australia needs is a commitment to the rule of law, with no cultural exceptions to the rule of law, and the rest will take care of itself.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 4:03:31 PM
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Foxy,

I would argue there is no such thing as Australianness in contemporary society. (I bet you knew that was coming from Mr Opinion!)

The reason I say that is because we are no longer a nation-state. We especially do not have a shared common language and a shared common history that mark us off as a common community with shared beliefs and ideologies.

Most of our population live in the big cities especially Sydney and Melbourne together having over a third of the national population. The cities define what Australia is and at the moment a social survey based on them will show that Australia is a congeries of disparate social groups clustered together, with each group defining its own social and cultural practises as well as separate histories and languages vis-à-vis the other social groups.

It is only the politicians, bureaucrats and business people who push the idea of an Australian oneness because it suits their purposes. For everyone else daily life is fixed within the bounds of ethnicity, race and language, where one's territory is the ancestral homeland and the neighbour on your left speaks Chinese and the neighbour on your right Turkish.

I have even started to refer to myself as British Australian in order that others do not mistake me for Chinese Australian, Indian Australia, Italian Australian, Sudanese Australian, etc.etc. I would never be so foolish as to refer to myself as Australian Australian because no such ethnic group exists, simply because there is no Australianness.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Thursday, 21 May 2020 4:39:05 PM
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runner,

You certainly paint a rather bleak outlook.

I'm more optimistic.

Australians don't give up so easily.

Take a look at our history from our free settlers,
battling oppression and the harsh Australian environment
conditions. Working together as "mates"to survive. To
the Eureka Stockade and gold diggers rebelling against
unfair taxes.

As well as our ANZACS, bushmen turned soldiers who
courageously fought against the odds to protect our
freedom.

History tells us - they fought with little regard for
British army ranks and their regimented hierarchies, but with
unlimited dedication to their fellow men. And there's
many such examples.

There are a great variety of constructs, values and
beliefs that form our Australianness. That makes us
different from other nations.

Mateship, egalitarianism, hardwork, larrikinism, and
humour, to name but a few. We support the ideal that everyone
deserves equitable treatment, the right to live a good
life, a "fair go".

This differentiates us from many other nations. Americans
claim to be the "land of the free". And this is evident
in their "rags to riches" expression. Well Australia's
emphasis on equality extends beyond the equality of
opportunity. Australia's emphasis is on creating a common
level.

" In England the average man feels he is an inferior.
In America he feels he is a superior.
In Australia he feels that he is an equal."

And that will see us through as it always
has.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 4:47:02 PM
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Mr O,

As I said to runner - there are a great variety of
constructs, values, and beliefs that form our
Australianness. Mateship, hardwork, larrikinism,
egalitarianism, our sense of humour, humility, to name
but a few. These qualities and values still
maintain prominence in the minds of a cross-section of
Australians of different backgrounds, life stages and
genders.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 4:55:05 PM
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Foxy,

It is true that we are a relatively generous and helpful country.

For example, Australia is ranked 2nd on the World Giving Index (71% donating money; 65% helping a stranger and 40% volunteering time).

Whether that stands up if times get tougher, we shall see.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:00:17 PM
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Foxy,

Are you saying that you believe there is a 'oneness' grounded in enculturation that is mostly Australian in character?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:03:24 PM
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Dear Chris,

Australian identity is not a fixed point in the
heavens, but a speeding comet that blazes
brightly and flits restlessly around the night sky,
refusing to remain stationary.

Like the wanderlust of the typical Australian, our
national spirit has never been able to sit still.

Our national identity has changed in our own lifetime.
It changed in our great grandparents'lifetime.
And even in their great-grandparents'.

Before Gallipoli nobody knew Australians could fight in
trenches. Before Errol Flynn nobody knew Australians
could be sexy in front of cameras. Australia is a process
of revelation. Of unveiling to the world surprising facts
about ourselves that nobody knew.

And there's still more to come. (smile).
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:04:40 PM
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'You certainly paint a rather bleak outlook.

I'm more optimistic.

Australians don't give up so easily.

strangely enough Foxy I do hope you are right. Maybe their will be a push back. Men and women like Hastie, Dutton, Canavan, Amanda Stokes, Concetta Fierravanti-Wells and Pauline Hanson offer some resistance. Thank God Turnbull, Pyne, Bishop and other bed wetters are gone.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:06:56 PM
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runner,

That's the spirit.

Good yo see some optimism.

Lets remember the words of a great Australian
whose identity remains a mystery to this day:

"There's never been a more exciting time to be Australian...
than right now."
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:11:21 PM
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Australian society has become a great nothingness I really can't be bothered giving much thought to. If I had a blow torch applied to my feet to make me talk, I would probably agree with Mr. Opinion (it is only politicians and posers who still pretend to think Australia is special) and runner, who mentions divisions. The curse of multiculturalism has killed all the things that once made me proud to be Australian.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:23:24 PM
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ttbn,

Same here!

The only ones who go around acting like Aussies today are the Johnny-come-lately multifunctionals who keep putting 'mate' at the end of their sentences because they think that is what Australians do all the time.

And to be honest having worked with lots of multifunctionals over the past 30 years I can tell you that that is just about the only thing they actually know about being an Australian.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:39:44 PM
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The multicultural aspect is always interesting.

I have long thought it worked well in Australia because one dominant ethnicity, broadly speaking (anglo-celtic).

not sure whether so much reliance on India and China is a good thing, but am still optimistic that we will all blend in well as long as rule of law and common norms prevail.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 5:41:53 PM
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Same here!
ttbn & Mr Opinion,
I agree !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 21 May 2020 6:49:27 PM
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Ben Pobjie, the author whose work appears in
"The Age," and elsewhere, tells us that:

"I think the greatest resource any country has is its
people. The story of Australia is the story of the
Australian people."

"The Australian people define Australia, create it,
represent it, and make the aspirations our young,
ambitious nation has."

"Without people, Australia would not be Australia.
Every inhabitant adds something to Australia, makes
it more Australian than it would otherwise be.
But obviously, there are some Australians who have
left a greater footprint than others."

"As egalitarian as we may pride ourselves to be we would
be naive to deny the inescapable fact that most of us
are really incredibly unimportant, while a few of us
are very special."

"It is those special few who have done most of the
heavy lifting in making the country what it is today.
And it will be those special few who again in the future
will be the extra-ordinary minority that will continue
to keep Australia on the map."

"As we know from our history our great Australians mark their
greatness in a variety of fields and capacities."

"We have had titans of business, legends of sports, giants
of science, colossi of philanthropy, and pygmies of
politics."

"Australians have led the world in a myriad ways, whether
generating wealth, inspiring youth, opening up the
vistas of human potential, saving lives, its all been
done in a peculiarly Australian way, with a swagger and
style that marks a person out as an inhabitant of the
determined greatest country on earth."

I thought it worth sharing Ben Pobjie's thoughts on
making Australia Great Again.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:02:24 PM
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//I would never be so foolish as to refer to myself as Australian Australian because no such ethnic group exists//

I reckon there's some blackfellas that might beg to differ.

In answer to Foxy's questions: the late, great Douglas Adams had this to say about Australia. I consider the most accurate description I have ever read.

"Australia is a very confusing place, taking up a large amount of the bottom half of the planet. It is recognisable from orbit because of many unusual features, including what at first looks like an enormous bite taken out of its southern edge; a wall of sheer cliffs which plunge into the girting sea. Geologists assure us that this is simply an accident of geomorphology, but they still call it the "Great Australian Bight", proving that not only are they covering up a more frightening theory but they can't spell either.

The first of the confusing things about Australia is the status of the place. Where other landmasses and sovereign lands are classified as continent, island or country, Australia is considered all three. Typically, it is unique in this.

The second confusing thing about Australia is the animals. They can be divided into three categories: Poisonous, Odd, and Sheep. It is true that of the 10 most poisonous arachnids on the planet, Australia has 9 of them. Actually, it would be more accurate to say that of the 9 most poisonous arachnids, Australia has all of them.

Any visitors should be careful to check inside boots (before putting them on), under toilet seats (before sitting down) and generally everywhere else. A stick is very useful for this task.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:08:48 PM
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The last confusing thing about Australia is the inhabitants.

A short history: Sometime around 40,000 years ago some people arrived in boats from the north. They ate all the available food, and a lot of them died. The ones who survived learned respect for the balance of nature, man's proper place in the scheme of things, and spiders. They settled in and spent a lot of the intervening time making up strange stories. They also discovered a stick that kept coming back.

Then, around 200 years ago, Europeans arrived in boats from the north.

More accurately, European convicts were sent, with a few deranged people in charge. They tried to plant their crops in autumn (failing to take account of the reversal of the seasons), ate all their food, and a lot of them died.

About then the sheep arrived, and have been treasured ever since. It is interesting to note here that the Europeans always consider themselves vastly superior to any other race they encounter, since they can lie, cheat, steal and litigate (marks of a civilised culture they say), whereas all the Aboriginals can do is happily survive being left in the middle of a vast red-hot desert - equipped with a stick.

Eventually, the new lot of people stopped being Europeans on 'extended holiday' and became Australians. The changes are subtle, but deep, caused by the mind-stretching expanses of nothingness and eerie quiet, where a person can sit perfectly still and look deep inside themselves to the core of their essence, their reasons for being, and the necessity of checking inside their boots every morning for fatal surprises. They also picked up the most finely tuned sense of irony in the world, and the Aboriginal gift for making up stories. Be warned.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:10:17 PM
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There is also the matter of the beaches. Australian beaches are simply the nicest and best in the world, although anyone actually venturing into the sea will have to contend with sharks, stinging jellyfish, stonefish (a fish which sits on the bottom of the sea, pretends to be a rock and has venomous barbs sticking out of its back that will kill just from the pain) and surfboarders. However, watching a beach sunset is worth the risk.

As a result of all this hardship, dirt, thirst and wombats, you would expect Australians to be a sour lot. Instead, they are genial, jolly, cheerful and always willing to share a kind word with a stranger. Faced with insurmountable odds and impossible problems, they smile disarmingly and look for a stick. Major engineering feats have been performed with sheets of corrugated iron, string and mud.
Alone of all the races on earth, they seem to be free from the 'Grass is greener on the other side of the fence' syndrome, and roundly proclaim that Australia is, in fact, the other side of that fence. They call the land "Oz" or "Godzone" (a verbal contraction of "God's Own Country"). The irritating thing about this is... they may be right.

TIPS TO SURVIVING AUSTRALIA

Don't ever put your hand down a hole for any reason - WHATSOEVER.

The beer is stronger than you think, regardless of how strong you think it is.

Always carry a stick.

Air-conditioning is imperative.

Do not attempt to use Australian slang unless you are a trained linguist and extremely good in a fist fight.

Wear thick socks.

Take good maps. Stopping to ask directions only works when there are people nearby

If you leave the urban areas, carry several litres of water with you at all times, or you will die. And don't forget a stick.

Even in the most embellished stories told by Australians, there is always a core of truth that it is unwise to ignore.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:11:12 PM
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HOW TO IDENTIFY AUSTRALIANS

They pronounce Melbourne as "Mel-bin".

They think it makes perfect sense to decorate highways with large fibreglass bananas, prawns and sheep.

They think "Woolloomooloo" is a perfectly reasonable name for a place, that "Wagga Wagga" can be abbreviated to "Wagga", but "Woy Woy" can't be called "Woy".

Their hamburgers will contain beetroot. Apparently it's a must-have.
How else do you get a stain on your shirt?

They don't think it's summer until the steering wheel is too hot to handle.

They believe that all train timetables are works of fiction.

And they all carry a stick.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:11:43 PM
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Foxy,

Are you going to respond to my question at p.2?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:16:55 PM
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Ben Pobjie would say that. He is closely associated with The Age, the Sydney Morning Herald, New Matilda, Crikey and the ABC. A lefty poet who would just love the watering down of the Australian way of life with enforced multiculturalism, mass immigration, and close ties with Communist China.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:23:16 PM
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Dear Chris,

There was a time when to be Australian was to be
English, only sunburnt. There was a time when to
be Australian was to be a dangerous criminal, but
far enough away geographically from normal people
for them to feel relatively relaxed about you.
And the list goes on. But today barely anyone evn
remembers what life was like back then.

What will define Australia in the post-modern era?

In the upcoming centuries the line-up will
probably be unimaginably different. We should therefore
let the celebration of our nation be not only a reflection
of our past but a salutory lesson for our future.

We need to learn from people like Sir Weary Dunlop, and
Caroline Chisholm, and all their historical kin, so that we
can become the Australians we aspire to be, and more
importantly, create the Australia we aspire to live in.

My feeling is that we are uniquely placed in Australia to be
able to do precisely that.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:23:17 PM
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Weary Dunlop was a great Australian.

I dont think he was religious, but he admired the philosophy of budhism if i recall correctly.

Yes, Australia has had some incredible people who led by example, and Dunlop was one of the greatest.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:27:42 PM
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For you guys that have lost faith in Australianess, can you inform us why it was so good in the past.

I am interested in a comprehensive explanation about what Australia has lost.

for all of our problems today, the Australia i remember in the 1970s was a sad comparison to the one that has evolved since.

I did like watching R rated movies from outside the fence though, back then.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 7:33:43 PM
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ttbn,

You said that Ben Pobjie is a "Lefty poet" who would love
watering down the Australian way of life with enforced
multiculturalism, mass immigration and closer ties with
communist China.

Ben Pobjie studied history at the University of Western
Sydney before his lust for glamour led him to comedy
writing. He is known for his columns in - The Age,
The Sydney Morning Herald, and political satire for -
New Matilda, Crikey, and the ABC and others.

He's a published author of several books, and has written
for TV shows, Reality Check, and The Unbelievable Truth.
He lives in Melbourne with his wife, 3 children, and a rising
sense of panic.

He's a proud Australian, and firmly believes in the
lessons our mighty Australian figures of history
have to teach us.
He believes the lessons are massive and enduring.

He does not believe in closer ties with communist
China. The communist Chinese do not have a sense of humour.
Most totalitarian regimes don't. Ben likes to make people
laugh out loud a lot. The communists would not trust him,
nor he them.

Ben tells us that "Should we wish to learn how to better
serve our nation, how to leave a legacy worthy of the
term, there is no difficulty: all we need do is look to
the great Australians we have had and drink in the cool,
refreshing inspiration they devoted their lives to
pouring out for us. To these earthly gods of the
Antipodes, we salute you, the most Australian way we know:
with the joyous cry: 'Aussie! Aussie! Aussie!"
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 21 May 2020 8:04:13 PM
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Foxy,

Who are these "mighty Australian figures of history' you refer to?

When I think mighty figures of history it is people like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, etc., who come to mind.

Who's on your list of mighty Australian figures?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Thursday, 21 May 2020 8:12:10 PM
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(failing to take account of the reversal of the seasons)
Toni Lavis,
Hindsight stuff. I'll give you some foresight material; Your mentality will be looked upon as a very negative one with which the era from 1972-to the present was infected with !
I'd say this will be said in about 2030 !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 21 May 2020 9:36:20 PM
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Foxy,

Come on now. I don't need a potted history of a lefty that you have clearly copied out. Ben can think as he pleases, as can you. You concur with his version of Australia. So be it. But you did ask what other people thought, and we have told you. You will not change your views; neither will we. Is there anything else to say?
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 21 May 2020 10:11:12 PM
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Actually, there is something else I would like to say.

We have had some really good people in the past. We don't have them any longer. Anzac Day makes me angry because I feel that those very people who claim to be honouring the Anzacs are the same people who have rejected just about everything those Anzacs fought and died for. Next to acquiescence, hypocrisy is the next major trait of Australians, closely followed by greed and hedonism.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 21 May 2020 10:21:30 PM
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Chris your "one dominant ethnicity" worked after WW11 with displaced Europeans because we outnumbered the newcomers, they were mostly like us in attitude, & they really wanted to make a new start & build a new life here. We gave them little but opportunity, & demanded a lot. It took a while, but we absorbed them & made them like us, & they succeeded.

Then came the first wave of Asians. There were more criminals & smarties among them than the the first lot, but most of them were here & had to make a go of it, at least in the short term. They formed ghettos, but became a bit like us & sort of integrated. The balance of "us" was stretched.

Of recent times a very large percentage of new comers are given far too much. This generosity has attracted a hordes of bludgers, not here to build a new life, but to get what they can for free. There are far too many of them, & not enough of us left as a percentage to absorb & assimilate them. They form large ghettos, with an Ozzie not welcome sign on every face. My last time in Sydney I felt unwelcome & threatened when I stopped for coffee in an old haunt.

There are no longer enough of "us" to absorb what is here. Bringing in more will make a horses ass of Australia & being an Ozzie will be a distant memory of better times.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 21 May 2020 11:10:26 PM
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//the era from 1972-to the present was infected with !//

Alright, I'm curious... what is the special significance of 1972?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 11:21:14 PM
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//Your mentality will be looked upon as a very negative one//

Being a fan of the works of Douglas Adams? I'm sure it's already frowned upon in some circles. Some people don't take too kindly to folks what like readin' books and doin' sums and suchlike... but you wouldn't know anybody like that, would you individual?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 May 2020 11:26:23 PM
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China has flooded Tibet with Han Chinese so, that now, Tibetans are becoming a minority in the own country. China did the same thing in part of Mongolia, where the original population is now only 16% of the total population. Given our politicians' closeness to China and their insistence on mass immigration, the same thing could happen here. Australians are in big, big trouble.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 21 May 2020 11:47:43 PM
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Alright, I'm curious... what is the special significance of 1972?
Toni Lavis,
That's when too many Australians chose to turn left instead of staying on course !
Posted by individual, Friday, 22 May 2020 12:47:59 AM
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Hasbeen, i have always favoured a diverse immigration source base.

Relying on one or two countries is wrong in my view.

In addition, old day immigration was to boost manufacturing and low skilled work, but many new migrants come here with skills which is another aspect that can rightfully annoy Australians. It annoys me.

We should reduce our immigration numbers dramatically, say 100,000 when times are better (not now), and train and encourage Aussies to take up work
Posted by Chris Lewis, Friday, 22 May 2020 5:31:55 AM
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It is tue, walking around Melbourne is vastly different to 20 years ago. There are a lot of East and South Asians.

We are becoming more like New York where the city is much less dominated by Europeans.

When i went to watch the NFL at Metlife stadium, the crowd was the opposiite of NY, mostly anglo celtic in terms of origin.

I spoke to a friendly American on train about the difference, and he explained that many Europeans had moved out to areas like Long Island.

For example, LIttle Italy in NY has shrunk.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/nyregion/little-italy-manhattan-fire.html

Our major cities are also beconomg like NY, but NY is much more diverse than Melbourne given its many nationalities, at leaast in terms of racial appearance
Posted by Chris Lewis, Friday, 22 May 2020 6:47:28 AM
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I see like most debates on the forum this one has also split along party lines. With the forever optimists on one side, and the eternal pessimists on the other. Before we can look forward to the future we need to recognise the past. As some would have it the past is that idealistic image of a people made up of mostly Banjo Patterson characters, swaggies and stockmen, which is comfortable and reassuring but untrue. The past was made up firstly of the indigenous people of the land, who have been hardy recognised and then grossly mistreated by later arrivals. Then there were the colonists from all over the world, some arriving by choice, some given no choice. Most new arrivals, earlier British, later European and now from all parts of the world, along with the old hands of several generations, have made a reasonably good success of life in Australia, but not always without some of the pain that goes with battling along. Describing Australia simply as "the lucky country" is also in part a fabrication. Australians have endured their share of natural disasters, fires, floods and droughts, along with man made catastrophes, wars and depressions, and a few other things as well.

The pessimists, with their doom and gloom are wrong to think Australians only has a bleak future to look forward to. We will have setbacks again, that's to be expected, but given the mix of young and old, new and not so new people, with multiculturalism playing its part, I think Australia will continue on a path of success well into the future.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 22 May 2020 6:47:36 AM
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Australian needs more news stories like this to test our immigration patterns.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/british-muslims-ipsos-mori-liberal-imams-islam-a8334196.html
Posted by Chris Lewis, Friday, 22 May 2020 7:26:07 AM
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Foxy,

I know a great title for the world's shortest book:

Mighty Australian Figures of History
Posted by Mr Opinion, Friday, 22 May 2020 8:54:06 AM
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Mighty Australian Figures of History
Mr Opinion,
With "Mighty" including monumental failures !
Posted by individual, Friday, 22 May 2020 10:49:23 AM
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Dear Hasbeen,

A large proportion of Chinese immigration comes through the business skills pathway.

There requirements are;

A net value of at least AUD1.5 million, an annual business turnover of at least AUD3 million for at least 2 of the 4 fiscal years, and total net assets of at least AUD400,000 as the ownership interest in one or more qualifying businesses for least 2 of the 4 fiscal years.

These are like expat Australians a group of which I have been part of in the past. They are congregating in the wealthier suburbs of our capital cities and bringing about changes in the ambience of those communities.

This initiative was pushed hard by the coalition government and supported by LNP voters over the years because these migrants weren't 'freeloaders' or 'boat arrivals'. But given the corrupt nature of business in China one suspects that this class of business migrant may well have a corrupting influence on our political systems which will need close scrutiny. I don't know about you but I feel more comfortable aobut those coming to this country with out a hell of a lot and working their way up will end up being a lot more invested in keeping this country fair and egalitarian.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 22 May 2020 12:28:59 PM
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bringing about changes in the ambience of those communities.
SteeleRedux,
Thus sending property values through the roof & ultimately out of their own reach hence the last alternative being to selling out to wealthy Chinese ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 22 May 2020 1:21:14 PM
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I haven't been able to respond earlier because
I'd used up all of my postings. Anyway, here goes now:

Tony Lavis,

Good to have you posting once again. Welcome back. I enjoyed your
posts very much. Your sense of humour is entertaining and greatly
appreciated.

Mr O,

You asked who are these "mighty Australian figures of history,"
I refer to?

I won't list them all, there's too many. However there's
pioneers such as Charles Kingsford Smith whose groundbreaking
efforts moved the couuntry forward, artists and entertainers
such as Joan Sutherland who shaped our national cultural identity,
captains of industry such as Rupert Murdoch, who inspired
Australia's love affair with people who amass
phenomenal quantities of personal wealth and
humanitarians such as Sir
Edward Weary Dunlop, Fred Hollows, Mary MacKillop, who found
fame by dedicating their lives to others.

ttbn,

Regarding Ben Pobjie - like the former author, comedian,
satirist, John Clarke who passed away in 2017, Ben Pobjie
is highly regarded. I've read all of his works and am
familiar with his humour and tongue-in-cheek satires.

What does "left" and "right" even mean nowadays? It's no
longer philosophy that divides Australian politics just the
decision about who is worthy of support.

Changing your mind or anyone else's does not interest me.
Providing people with factual information however is an
occupational habit.

Hasbeen,

Our national identity has changed in our own lifetime and it
will undoubtedly continue to change. What will define us in
the future will probably be unimaginably different.
Who can predict the future? All we can do is as Steele and
Paul suggest - not only learn from the
greats of the past like Sir Weary Dunlop,
and all their historical kin but try to ensure that
we can become the Australians we aspire to
be and more importantly create the Australia we
aspire to live in.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 2:22:27 PM
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Dear Foxy,

As you probably found out in your time overseas, you can learn two things (at least) by living overseas:

* that people 'over there' are often slightly different in subtle ways, more brash/reserved, less spontaneous/thoughtful, smug/reflective, etc.;

AND (when you come back here)

* Australians are indeed different in ways which you can't put your finger on and hadn't thought about before - more casual, open, straight-out, not too deep and/or incredibly generous, etc..

And that, on the whole, people everywhere are, on balance, worth living with, once you get used to living with them, and they to you.

If I hadn't already come to the conclusion that Misopinionated was actually not Australian, but had only just arrived, not necessarily from anywhere else on this planet, I would strongly advise him/her/it to try living overseas for a time, and then come back, to compare (and contrast) what the histories of those other peoples and their shared experiences had thrown up to shape them, compared to those which we have experienced here. And to take his/her/its time, say, twenty years.

Much love,

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Friday, 22 May 2020 3:55:45 PM
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LOUDmouth,

I think Foxy would agree with me that you would have made a great Arts graduate if only you had been able to qualify for entry into an Arts program.

But at least you have learned how to read and write during your life which would be a big plus for you and you probably even think your Grade 6 education level is actually equivalent to having an Arts degree. That's the spirit LOUDmouth! I encourage people like you to try to improve yourselves.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Friday, 22 May 2020 4:37:50 PM
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Foxy,

Ben Pobje is not "highly regarded" by me; you allege that he is highly regarded by …. whom, apart from you? And, really! What does John Clarke have to do with it? Did he think the same way as you and Ben? You don't say, so you might as well mention Joe Blow. You are responsible for what you think. Telling people how well regarded someone is who is not even in the conversation, who has not presented an opinion on this site, will not add to, or detract from, your own opinions. We are all aware that people other than you hold opinions similar to yours.

I am amazed by your 'left' and 'right' comment. Perhaps you can explain it. I'm even more amazed that you say different philosophies don't divide, it's "just the decision about who is worthy of support".

I don't know how you make your decisions on who to vote for - who is worthy of your vote - but I choose in relation to how a politician's philosophy fits in with my own philosophy, which is right wing. The philosophy of politicians is all that we know about them, all we need to know about them in their professional capacity. Anything else is their business.

On a more trivial matter, it was Sir Edward Dunlop, not Sir Weary Dunlop. Nobody is dubbed with a nickname.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 22 May 2020 4:53:02 PM
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Dear Joe,

We had no intention of ever living in the United
States permanently. We went there for work experience
and much as we thoroughly enjoyed our time there we did
not see any future in that country.

Australia is our home. Our extended family is here. To us
Australia is in short, a well-rounded country. One which
is lead by men and women of vision and talent. Whether
conquering the world on the biggest stage of all, breaking
new ground in political achievement or winning hearts
with simple Aussie enthusiasm, these folk have
propelled us into a new era - and an exciting future for our
grand-children.

We consider ourselves truly blessed.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 4:53:09 PM
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Barnaby Joyce, Pauline Hanson, Tony Abbott - men and women of vision and talent?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Friday, 22 May 2020 4:57:56 PM
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ttbn,

I wasn't actually talking about you when I wrote about
Ben Pobjie and John Clarke being highly regarded.
But they are/were by their readers and followers in
their columns and tv shows. All you have to do is Google
to learn that.

Weary refers to Sir Edward's last name. It was a
popular nickname by which he was known. I took the license
of using his nickname as that's what he was known by.

If you don't like what and how I write you're under
no obligation to read any of it.

However, I do appreciate your constructive input.(smile).
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 5:15:20 PM
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Mr O,

Barnaby Joyce, Pauline Hanson, Tony Abbott,
people of vision and talent?

You'd better ask ttbn about them not me.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 5:17:25 PM
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No nation is perfect. That's usually pointed out by
people who are trying to argue that there's nothing
actually wrong with their country and no changes need
to be made.

And the fact that Australia is objectively better than
every other country doesn't mean that there aren't bits
that could maybe do with a bit of improvement.

Australia has never been perfect, obviously. But having
gone through the long painful process of becoming a
nation, then discovering a national identity and finding a
way of making the rest of the world take notice of us
Australians have devoted precious little time to the nation's
failings and contradictions.

Moire of that a little later - for now I've got to ruash
and get dinner on.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 5:39:27 PM
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Same old Foxy. Like a boil waiting to lanced. I thought that I should make an effort with you, but you have proved that I'm wasting my time.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 22 May 2020 6:08:11 PM
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Poor ttbn,

If you take everything personally you'll remain
offended for the rest of your life.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 7:05:58 PM
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The issue of our Indigenous people should be part
of this discussion. After all they were the first
inhabitants of this country. Even though many of
us were taught very little about them in our history
classes at school.

Of course there are bound to have been tensions
when two peoples are forced to co-exist with vastly
different cultures and priorities.

To this day Australia has not fully reconciled with the
struggles of Aboriginal Australia.
Can we really say that we have?

Can we really claim that we have redressed the wrongs of
the past and found justice for the marginalised?

We need men and women of good heart to bring Australia to
a new era of self-awareness and maturity, with all the
wisdom and pain that necessitates to find a solution to
the problem of our first peoples.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 7:38:20 PM
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There are always going to be immature people of deficient character to legitimise the grievance industry.

There can be no friendship with people constantly reminding you of what people you don’t know did to other people you never met, and holding you responsible for it.

There can never be reconciliation until the voices of mature Australians drown out those who prefer to exploit and prolong division. Maturity requires forgiveness instead of resentment, without demanding certain conditions from others, and choosing to be one of us: a functional Australian without a racially-charged chip on your shoulder.

At the moment reconciliation is only intended to change white people, only makes demands of white people, and only holds white people responsible for any lack of reconciliation
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 22 May 2020 7:57:29 PM
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I'm certainly no expert on this subject and it is
a complex one that has plagued our country for
quite some time. In trying to find solutions we need
to really look beyond resentment and a "white"
"black" picture and who did what to whom.

Reconciliation I believe means a "coming together"
how can we come together if we are already building
walls?

The following link explains more:

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/what-you-need-to-know-about-reconciliation
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 May 2020 8:15:55 PM
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Reconciliation I believe means a "coming together"
Foxy,
It also means equal responsibility but that's the great hurdle ! Coming together is easy when someone else makes all the effort & others just take & it's those takers who create the need for walls !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 23 May 2020 11:37:06 AM
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Foxy,

"Reconciliation I believe means a "coming together"
how can we come together if we are already building
walls?"

By treating all Australians equally, regardless of skin pigmentation etc., and making sure that there is one law for all.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 23 May 2020 12:01:47 PM
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Is Mise,

'Reconciliation' is the process of getting Australia's first peoples and traditional customary owners of the land to come out of their subdued underprivileged conditions of dispossession and imposed poverty and say "We give up!"

Why accept a treaty with Aboriginal Australia when you can get total surrender.

You sly dog! You have been planning this all along, haven't you?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Saturday, 23 May 2020 12:10:52 PM
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Why accept a treaty with Aboriginal Australia when you can get total surrender.
Mr Opinion,
What difference would a Treaty make ? The outcome is still the same ! The effort that is needed to become part of the show instead of a subsidised onlooker is ultimately up to those who believe they're owed more than they provided to their own in the past !
In the whole of the scheme of things even the invader becomes a victim of invasion eventually !
This eventual is happening now !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 23 May 2020 2:19:48 PM
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Opinion,

I meant what I said, Australians together under one Government and one law, no special privileges for anyone based on so-called race or on who was here first.

If there are special privileges based on race then that is racism, pure and simple, and there can be none of that in a fair and equal society.

It's not a matter of anyone giving up, that happened long ago and if we embrace the idea that one's great-great-grandchildren are carrying on the fight then every nation on Earth (with few if any exceptions) would have to be making treaties with the very mixed-blood people who claim to be originals.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 23 May 2020 2:21:42 PM
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It is nonsense to think that a country can make a treaty with itself, or that citizens can make treaties with themselves,
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 23 May 2020 2:37:14 PM
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Aboriginality is a religion for the Left. The mantras of “Apology” and “Reconciliation” are not so much an effort to remedy anything in practical terms as they are the religious utterances of penitents engaging in ritual self-flagellation for the expiation of their sins - sins that are not even theirs.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 23 May 2020 2:59:17 PM
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We need to bust the myths about Aboriginal people.
That is important because it can be toxic if you
encounter the same negative stereotypes over and
over again. It leads to frustration, anger, and
eventually bad health.

If we perpetuate myths without questioning them we
demonstrate our own ignorance and illiteracy of
Aboriginal culture. Understanding why Australia's
First Peoples are so angry starts with an open mind,
and an education.

We've all heard the old - The British built Australia from
the ground up. Aboriginal people contributed significantly
to building Australia. Mostly without compensation.

All this happened in the past. Much trauma happened in the
past but bad things are still happening today.

I had nothing to do with it. We have a moral responsibility
to acknowledge and not let these things happen again.

Aboriginal people receive millions of dollars. A lot of money
is spent on Aboriginal affairs but very little trickles
through to where it is needed.

Aboriginals get special treatment - like houses and cars.
The government has no freebies for anyone. Programmes need
to be tailored to people especially those facing hardship.

It's time to move on. Aboriginal people should "get over it."
It is time to roll up the sleeves and do something.

A lot of Aborigines drink alcohol. Australia as a nation
has a drinking problem. Fewer Aborigines than non-Aborigines
drink alcohol.

There's violence and abuse against women and children in
their communities. Trauma leads to violence and abuse. It
is a world-wide problem.

Saying 'sorry'once should be enough.
Aboriginal people are not asking you to say 'sorry.'
They are asking you to respect and acknowledge their true
history.

All this was taken from the 'Creative Spirit' website.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 May 2020 3:24:43 PM
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Thanks Foxy,

"Reconciliation has elements of truth, justice, forgiveness, healing, reparation, and love."

"Supporting reconciliation means working to overcome the division (often called "the gap") and inequality between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people."

"Differences are biggest in health, income, living standards and life expectancy, but also prejudice and racism."

For some the idea of reconciliation is alien, not only do they ignore the past inequality, as if it didn't exist, they also ignore the present inequalities. Happy as people like ttbn, Indy and others were in times of mass discrimination, they now want to declare its all a rort, dreamt up by the "left" for nefarious reasons. Happy as they were to kick darkie into the gutter, they now want to maintain their position of privilege at the expense of the first Australians.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 23 May 2020 4:15:33 PM
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As aboriginal people, the world over, become educated they leave the past behind them and get on with life.
I don't know one Aboriginal who wants a treaty and I know a lot outside of my family members (grand uncles offspring).
They are too busy making a life tor themselves and their children.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 23 May 2020 5:21:28 PM
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Dear Paul,

I think it appropriate to include another name to the
"Great Australians," who made this country. That of
Vincent Lingiari, who was a living legend whose story
merits singing to future generations for as long as
this country endures.

Opposed by a society that had dedicated the best part
of two centuries to the brutal dispossession and oppression
of his people , Lingiari stood firm and declared he would
not submit. He changed not only the course of his people's
lives but that of Australia itself.

" Gather round people let me tell you a story
An eight-year long story of power and pride
British Lord Vestey and Vincent Lingiari
Were opposite men on opposite sides..."

You probably know these as the opening lyrics to the
1991 Paul Kelly and Kev Carmody song, "From Little Things
Big Things Grow." It's one of Australia's most important
songs. The story told by the song is one of the greatest
this wide brown land has known and
one that sadly too few Australians know.
It's a story that is everything we lionise
in Australia - mateship, courage, the battler, a fair go,
the underdog, getting one over the powerful and a happy
ending where the hero wins.

There's more at:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-26/hodgson-from-little-things-big-things-grow/2855942
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 May 2020 5:44:10 PM
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Happy as they were to kick darkie into the gutter, they now want to maintain their position of privilege at the expense of the first Australians.
Paul1405,
You're a prize all on its own ! Why don't YOU put your money where your mouth is & vacate the Aboriginal land YOU live & work on ?
What have YOU ever done for indigenous people in return for living on the land YOU occupy ?
From where I'm standing you look like an indisputable m...n !
Terms such as the one you used above to describe indigenous people exposes you as the racist hypocrite you really are !
I don't suppose it ever occurred to you what a waste of space your poor parent produced !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 23 May 2020 6:34:31 PM
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Dear Paul,

There's an article in the Griffith
Review by Paul Newberry that I think you may enjoy.

Newberry acknowledges that our inheritance should
not engender a paralysing guilt, but that rather
it should be a mature realisation of the moral
obligations created by our past.

He tells us that
we should reach out if we don't want to forever be
immigrants in Aboriginal land. That our indentity
is commensurate with living on Indigenous land.
And that Indigenous philosophy and spirituality should
be a guiding theme in our identity.He explains it better
that I'm doing and it's worth a read.

There's much more at the following link:

http://www.griffithreview.com/articles/perspectives-of-identity-in-being-australian/
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 May 2020 7:46:24 PM
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Dear Paul,

Just a short further note.

I mis-spelled the author's name in the link I cited
for you earlier. It should have read - Paul W. Newbury.

He actually has contributed as an OLO author.

He stated that "if we are to be members of one nation we
cannot continue to have conflicting stories about our
past."

He also said - " We will know we belong to one nation
when a shrine honouring fallen Indigenous warriors is
placed alongside the " Tomb of The Unknown Australian Soldier"
in the Hall of Memory at the Australian War Memorial in
Canberra".
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 May 2020 8:15:47 PM
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A treaty means, in practical terms, recognition of tribal law and the resultant deprivation of young Aboriginal girls of their rights as Australian citizens, they'll be even more at the mercy of so-called 'Elders'.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 23 May 2020 9:10:34 PM
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A treaty is not what is being asked for.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/16/indigenous-recognition-what-if-anything-will-australians-be-asked-to-vote-on
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 23 May 2020 11:14:59 PM
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//A treaty means, in practical terms, recognition of tribal law and the resultant deprivation of young Aboriginal girls of their rights as Australian citizens//

You know, of all the demands I've ever heard from Aboriginal rights activists from the quite reasonable to the ludicrously far-fetched, I've yet to hear a single one demanding the right to paedophilia.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 23 May 2020 11:30:33 PM
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This is interesting… how does NTA relate multiculturalism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Geertz

Non-territorial autonomy

The origin of NTA can be traced back to the Marxists works of Otto Bauer and Karl Renner. NTA was employed during the interwar period, and the League of Nations sought to add protection clauses for national minorities in new states. In the 1920s, Estonia granted some cultural autonomy to the German and Jewish populations in order to ease conflicts between the groups and the newly independent state.

NTA has emerged in recent years as an alternative solution to ethnic tensions and grievances in places that are likely to breed conflict. For this reason, NTA has been promoted as a more practical and state building solution than consociationalism. NTA, alternatively known as non-cultural autonomy (NCA), is based on the difference of jus solis and jus sanguinis, the principles of territory versus that of personhood. It gives rights to ethnic groups to self-rule and govern matters potentially concerning but limited to: education, language, culture, internal affairs, religion, and the internally established institutions needed to promote and reproduce these facets. In contrast to federalism, the ethnic groups are not assigned a titular sub-state, but rather the ethnic groups are dispersed throughout the state unit. Their group rights and autonomy are not constrained to a particular territory within the state. This is done in order not to weaken the center state such as in the case of ethnofederalism.

Other scholars, such as Clarke, argue that the successful implementation of NTA rests on the acknowledgement in a state of "universal" principles: true Rule of Law, established human rights,... Moreover, no individual can be forced to adhere, identify, or emphasize a particular identity (such as race, gender, sexuality, etc.) without their consent in order for NTA to function for its purpose.

Nonetheless, Clarke critiques the weaknesses of NTA in areas such as education, a balance between society wide norms and intracommunity values; policing, for criminal matters and public safety; and political representation, which limits the political choices of an individual if based solely on ethnicity.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 24 May 2020 7:59:43 AM
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Furthermore, the challenge in evaluating the efficacy of NTA lies in the relatively few legal implementations of NTA.

Emphasizing the limits of approaches that focus mainly on institutional answers to ethnic conflicts—which are essentially driven by ethnocultural dynamics of which political and/or economic factors are but elements—Gregory Paul Meyjes urges the use of intercultural communication and cultural-rights based negotiations as tools with which to effectively and sustainably address inter-ethnic strife. Meyjes argues that to fully grasp, preempt, and/or resolve such conflicts—whether with or without the aid of territorial or non-territorial institutional mechanism(s) -- a cultural rights approach grounded in intercultural knowledge and skill is essential.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 24 May 2020 8:00:54 AM
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Aboriginal Lady- I remember an aboriginal lady over 70 I found her half on a very busy road one day. I was sure what was happening with her so I rang the ambulance. The ambulance officers turned up after about a while- turned out that they knew her well- the first thing they said was "are you drunk again". I felt ashamed that I had taken the ambulance away from more important tasks.

I saw her a few weeks later with a group in the park drinking metho out of a paper bag.

Should I have tried to force her to live differently or let her slowly drink herself to death. At least she was with people she identified with in the park.

To me I'm bad either way. But I've made peace with that.

Aboriginal Young Man- I remember a young man that said to me one day that all non-Aboriginals in Australia should be removed or killed. There doesn't appear to be any negotiation here. I thought that perhaps some certainty and clarification needs to be provided here to Aboriginal culture so that they can move on with their cultures future- and develop in their own way. If they integrate with the rest of Australian culture they lose their own identity- I think that this would be a tragic loss to the world. Supposedly the non-racists favour the integration approach- strangely I feel that the non-racists are just as prejudiced in their own way. Also by being indecisive they are cruel. It seems Aboriginals are playing the victim in a similar way that Jewish people are sometimes accused of doing since they left Egypt.

If Aboriginals self harm and hold the country hostage to their demands by going on hunger strike and don't cooperate with the troubleshooting process or help to solve the problem- we need to solve the problem for them.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 24 May 2020 9:36:38 AM
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One of the issues is of course there isn't one Aboriginal Nation but many small ones- a difficult project with complicated expensive tax payer funded negotiations- there are many tactics used in negotiations- sometimes third parties can interfere in order to steal value out of the process.

I don't think the left want a solution- this is our Afghanistan- cruelty under the auspices of humanity- a particularly vicious form of evil.

The left argue that all wars are racist wars and wars between the classes.

Apparently Communist Russia was the main proponent of the Convention on Civil and Political Rights CCPR that contains the so called anti-hate laws that were ratified during the cold war in 1957 but not signed by the US until 1993
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 24 May 2020 9:40:10 AM
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The Australian of tomorrow will always welcome you with a big Aussie "Ni Hao Mate!"
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 24 May 2020 10:14:55 AM
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Mr Opinion,

the CCP will never take over Australia, although one day we may have a PM of Chinese descent.

We can expect many more policies in Australia and around the world that will temper China's rise, including a military build up if need be.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Sunday, 24 May 2020 11:06:24 AM
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What is the future of Australianness?

We cannot dismiss the issues of public policy that
will bedevil us in the future. Amongst
the policies will undoubtedly be - lifting Aboriginal
people into the mainstream of Australian life,
the ageing of our population, water
management, energy resources, and transition to a republic.
To name just a few.

There are and probably will be many more unresolved
problems that will face us in the future, especially
addressing Indigenous disadvantage. We will have to deal
with these to move forward as a free, fair, and vibrant
society.

I have no doubt we can find the solutions that suit us,
provided we do not succumb to the siren calls of demagogues,
charlatans and ideologues.

Robert Menzies wrote an article for the New York Times in
1948. Here is an excerpt:

"I believe that politics is the most important and responsible
civil activity to which a man may devote his character, his
talents and his energy. We must in our own interest
elevate politics into statesmanship and statescraft. We
must aim at a condition of affairs in which we shall no
longer reserve the dignified name of statesman for a Churchill
or a Roosevelt, but extend it to lesser men who give
honourable and patriotic service in public affairs".

The achievements of the past have laid a foundation that we
need to properly build on now. We have the opportunities
we never had before in Australia's history. The best years
for our country are still in front of us. We can become
the Australians we aspire to be and more importantly
the, create the Australia we aspire to live in.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 May 2020 11:19:29 AM
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Toni,

Read these and learn.

"A NEW report has called for the outlawing of traditional Aboriginal customs in remote communities that sanction violence against women and children and the promised marriage of girls as young as four[Get that? Four.]

The report, by Sydney academic Helen Hughes, calls for the age that girls can marry in remote communities to be raised to 18, the age that both the bride and groom must be to marry in the rest of Australia.

Professor Hughes' call follows a controversial decision by the Northern Territory's Chief Justice, Brian Martin, last month to sentence a 55-year-old Aboriginal elder to only four weeks' jail for hitting his 14-year-old "promised wife" with a boomerang and having forced anal sex with her."
http://www.theage.com.au/national/aboriginal-child-bride-laws-attacked-20050922-ge0wxu.html

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publication/recognition-of-aboriginal-customary-laws-alrc-report-31/12-aboriginal-marriages-and-family-structures/marriage-in-traditional-aboriginal-societies/

"An Aborigine's jail term has been lifted on appeal to 18 months for having sex with his 14-year-old promised wife.

The case has flamed debate about the role of customary Aboriginal law in the wider Australian legal system, as the traditional Aboriginal man believed his actions were allowed under tribal law.

The man - who speaks English as his fourth language and lives in the remote NT outback - also did not know his actions were illegal under NT laws."
http://www.smh.com.au/national/aborigine-jailed-18-months-for-child-bride-sex-20051223-gdmocn.html

so now you know.
Where have you been hiding that you didn't know?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 24 May 2020 12:56:09 PM
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Instead of simply pointing out problems and dwelling
only on the negative. How about offering solutions
instead.

We can influence our politicians by leading public opinion
and transmuting it into laws that shape our society and
our country. We can make changes for future generations
by addressing the unresolved problems that face us,
especially Indigenous disadvantage.

We need to do so not by merely pointing out the wrongs
but by fixing these wrongs. We must deal with these in
order to move forward as a free, fair, and vibrant
society. Carrying on with negativity helps no one.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 May 2020 1:10:45 PM
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Is Mise- I find this concerning but I am not Aboriginal so perhaps I don't have a right to judge it based on an arbitrary kangaroo court- so called universal ethics. Also a 14 year old girl is not a 4 year old girl- still concerning- My understanding is that in Traditional Aboriginal culture the girl is pledged to a twenty year old male at birth but sexual relations don't usually occur till much later. Maybe Aboriginal Traditions can hold in Aboriginal Zones but European Traditions in European Zones similar to drinking in Arab nations.

I suspect that you have a bit more of a stake in Aboriginal affairs than I do. I think most Australian's want to look forward to more normalized relations with the neighbouring Aboriginal diaspora. It can't be an excuse forever that because we are next door we are completely responsible for people that come over the border.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 24 May 2020 1:36:31 PM
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Foxy,

One Law for all Australians and if those who are primitive and do not understand the Law must be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st Century then so be it.
I find the excuse that remote communities do not understand Australian Law to be both a condemnation of the Elders and of local Officialdom after all enough time has passed and enough millions have been spent for the problem to have been fixed long ago.

One Australia, one Law, one people.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 24 May 2020 2:17:54 PM
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We are all responsible for how we remember our
nation's past and how we might go about redressing
the present wrongs.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 May 2020 2:18:31 PM
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"We are all responsible for how we remember our
nation's past and how we might go about redressing
the present wrongs"

Yes, we are and we will also be responsible for mucking the future up, especially the future of young Aboriginal women who have the same rights as all other Australian women to choose who they shall marry if that is what they want to do.

Tell me Foxy, do Lesbian Aboriginal girls in remote areas have a choice of lifestyle?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 24 May 2020 2:26:10 PM
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Is Mise,

You seem to have a fixation on a certain category of people.

Is this a particular interest you picked up from when we were studying anthropology together at Sydney?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 24 May 2020 2:32:08 PM
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Hundreds of women and girls in Australia as well
as men and boys, don't have life style choices
due to the cultures they come from.

All sorts of problems exist and many cases go unreported
despite certain practices being made illegal.

Regarding our Indigenous people - we cannot have one nation
one law - when we treat our Indigenous differently.
When we don't acknowledge the truth of their history
and when we don't listen to their requests.

Only when this changes can we move forward as a nation.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 May 2020 3:41:09 PM
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Foxy,

I doubt that will ever happen.

Society is always composed of sub-groups opposed to other sub-groups. If it isn't differences in race and ethnicity it will be differences in class or religion that antagonises social groups, who only ever seem to want to come together if their social system is threatened by external groups.

Humans just never seem to be at peace with each other.

The Roman concepts of law that we have inherited were always about averting civil disobedience amongst the plebs against the aristocrats, with the main purpose of fitting out an army when Rome was under threat by its neighbours.

Wars seem to have that effect of bringing together disparate groups of people to protect the 'nation'. Isn't that why states always have a head of state, who is basically the war leader. Everyone can rally behind the king, president or religious leader.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 24 May 2020 4:09:59 PM
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Opinion,

I have Aboriginal relatives, cousins by the dozins, I spent time, as a youth, with tribal Aboriginals and learnt much, I was obviously young but I was circumcised and that meant a lot.
I have many Aboriginal friends and at Uni I was fortunate enough to meet an outstanding Aboriginal woman who ran a successful retail business in Sydney.
She had been married at twelve, sexually abused and owed her escape to a white woman who broke the law to get her out.

Foxy,

There is no earthly reason not to apply the law equally to all Australians, to not do so is to break the law.
I thought that you were all for equality for women.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 24 May 2020 4:13:54 PM
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Germaine Greer put it very well:

"Aboriginal people pass through our courts every day,
but we have never allowed Aboriginal people to judge us.
We hear every day of the
crimes against our laws - but nothing of our crimes against theirs.
As long as the Aboriginal silence is filled
with whitefella noise the situation can only get worse".

We're fully aware, especially in the NT that -
the relations between Aboriginal people and police is not
good. Justice delayed is justice denied.

Ben Pobjie tells us that:

"It has taken some time for the British and their descendants in
Australia to stop thinking of England as "home"- some say the
tendency only really died out when Robert Menzies passed away in
1978. Australia - was viewed as an outpost of
the British Empire far beyond at which this
perception was literally true or even remotely reasonable".

"And yet somehow, the diverse peoples of the Indigenous nations and
the deluded white criminals of the motherland ended up forming
a single nation, this amazing land we call
Australia, which combines all the best of its brutally
cruel origins with the
finest in modern complacency and self-deception".

"But when did Australia truly begin? Who were the "first Australian?" -
the people who invented the idea of being
Australian, and began the long, slow trek towards discovering
exactly what being Australian means?
From the very beginning of the clash of cultures
that set this land on a collision course
with nationhood, there were a few remarkable individuals who,
however they began their lives, ended them fully deserving the
prestigious and only slightly insulting designation of
"Great Australian".

We've covered some of their stories in this discussion.
I shall leave it there.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 24 May 2020 6:21:03 PM
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//Read these and learn.//

Wow... what a surprise. You found some articles about pedophilia being committed by Aboriginal people. Good job, buddy.

I reckon that with the barest of effort on the ol' google, I could find you a great big pile of stories of pedophilia being committed by Catholic priests, being covered up by the Church hierarchy... quite a damning picture of the Catholic church could be constructed with a few articles. Well, that and very some sloppy thinking.

Just because there have been some sickening abuses carried out by priests, it doesn't follow that they're all evil, that the Church is a corrupt institution, or that the faithful in any way condone those sort of abuses. Guilt by association is very sloppy thinking indeed - I would go so far as to say nonsense on stilts. And it's sloppy thinking no matter which group it as applied to, be that the Catholic Church or our Indigenous population.

Pedophilia happens, Is Mise,. It shouldn't, but it happens. But nobody's actually in favour of it except for the pedophiles. Aboriginal activists ask for treaty, they ask for the date of Australia day to be changed, they ask for sovereignty, they ask to have their flag adopted as our national flag or incorporated into it, they ask to have their languages taught in schools. Their demands are many and varied. But they don't ask for the Government to recognise their sovereign right to rape children. I think if you stop and think about that briefly, you might be able to deduce why
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 24 May 2020 7:42:23 PM
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If I may offer my own tentative hypothesis... it's because by and large, the staggering majority of people, be they black, Catholic, wealthy, disabled gay whales, whatever, are disgusted by the thought of raping anybody, let alone a child. Because most people aren't weird sick perverts. And also because pedophilia seems to be a crime predominantly committed by older men in positions of power... and quite a lot of the Aboriginal activists - or perhaps just the most outspoken, the result is the same either way - seem to be a) young b) female and c) not in positions of power. So it's hardly surprising that they're not out there calling for grubby old perverts to have the right to rape little girls... they were little girls themselves not so long ago.

I think a little bit of smart comedy can help to cut through a lot of BS... here's a clip I like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq-XogDUU88&t=377

I don't think human nature varies much between different populations of humans, and what Gervais says about who was and wasn't attending the rallies, and why, speaks directly to human nature.

Now have a think about how human nature might apply in the case of people who might agitate in favour of child rape and who might be opposed, just within the Aboriginal community itself.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 24 May 2020 7:42:49 PM
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Toni,

"If I may offer my own tentative hypothesis... it's because by and large, the staggering majority of people, be they black, Catholic, wealthy, disabled gay whales, whatever, are disgusted by the thought of raping anybody, let alone a child."

Then I take it that you are in favour of one Law for all Australians?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 24 May 2020 11:00:29 PM
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But to get back to the main topic, Australianness has no future, not as we knew it.

There are elements in our society that are hell-bent on creating divisiveness and Government and organisations that pander to them.

We have Governments that are more concerned with raising revenue than with saving lives, Governments which, in fact, have an interest in the road toll continuing at around its present level.

I and my children and grandchildren all have the usual insurance plus the added policies of dual citizenship (and some of them have triple) so that we have a chance of getting out if needs be.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 25 May 2020 10:08:18 AM
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Is Mise,

Triple citizenship?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 10:30:32 AM
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Australia remains the only Western democratic country
with neither a constitutional nor federal legislative
bill of rights to protect its citizens. Australia does
not have a "Bill of Rights".

When Australian politicians had to decide whether to
adopt a bill of rights they decided against it. Politicians
were fearful that a bill of rights would undermine some
of the discriminatory provisions of the law at that time.
For example, those which disadvantaged Aboriginal people.

Since Federation many attempts were made to introduce a
bill of rights - 1929, 1942, 1959, 1973, 1983, 1985, 1988
and 2009 and probably more. So far all have failed.

Aboriginal people have to live with the consequences of
Australia's failure to protect their basic human rights
every day and continue to experience racial discrimination
in many areas of life.

Aboriginal people generally experience lower standards of
health, education, employment, and housing. They are over
represented in the criminal justice system and the care
and protection systems nationally compared to non-
Aboriginal people.

They also suffer from limited recognition and protection of
their culture, languages and rights and ownership of land
and resources.

One law one people?

Our politicians are not prepared for that - yet.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 10:36:21 AM
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Indigenous Affairs Minister Ken Wyatt who attended the
United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva last year
may assist the Australian Government in promoting and
investing empowerment of Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander Australians. It will be a challenge - but
perhaps he can succeed where others have failed.

There's more at the following link:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-29/scott-morrison-ministry-ken-wyatt-indigenous-affairs/11157998
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 10:49:56 AM
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Opinion,

Yes, triple, depends on the countries and the ancestry.

On Australia's future, China could invade tomorrow and there is very little that we could do about it.
Australia is undefended and undefendable and as the majority of its citizens are considered to be untrustworthy then they couldn't be expected to defend the place.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 25 May 2020 11:25:16 AM
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Foxy,

More divisiveness.

Everything that has been thrown at the problem has failed.

You haven't yet said why you think young Aboriginal girls should be denied their rights as citizens.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 25 May 2020 11:29:08 AM
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Is Mise,

I think Australia's politicians, bureaucrats and businesses have handed the country to China on a plate and I think Chinese in the PRC and Australia have an expectation that Australia will become part of a Chinese empire.

I don't think there will be too many people in Australia who would be running to join up to fight for Australia. Half the population was born elsewhere so they won't be risking their lives for a country they don't have an autochthonous relationship. I assume the CCP will allow those people to return to their homelands prior to a mass transmigration of Chinese from the PRC to Australia (to take the population pressure off China.)
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 11:44:04 AM
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Everything that has been thrown at the problem has failed?

Yes, so far the attempts have failed because politicians
have been quick to propose "solutions" that suit them, or
they spend money which doesn't reach where it's needed or
do the job that's needed.

To solve social and political issues they have to go out to
Aboriginal communities and listen to the affected people.
At present most initiatives fail and Aboriginal people are
tired of politicians who just keep promising.

We see communities on a regular basis where there's
frustration with the bureaucracy not listening.
Government programmes often propose the one solution
that's applied in many cases.

But such blanket solutions rarely work in Aboriginal
affairs. Governments need to develop solutions in
conjunction with Aboriginal communities.

What we really need to do is work with communities to
understand what their needs are and then design the
service to respond to those needs. Often communities
are given programs they don't need or require.

What might work in a community in Western Australia's
Kimberley region might not succeed in Central Australia.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 2:05:18 PM
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Why should young Aboriginal girls be denied their
rights as citizens?

Not sure what is being inferred by that question.

At a guess - it could be their parents want to
protect them from harm. They mistrust the whitefella's
society and its culture.

History shows us that Aboriginal people were expected to
calmly submit to an order to take from them girls and
boys and place them in government institutions.

Today the brain washing continues about Aboriginals being
lazy, dirty, and of low intelligence going nowhere.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 2:24:08 PM
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Foxy,

Were you aware that in the 1960s the UN declared a refugee situation near Fitzroy Crossing, Western Australia when about 5,000 displaced Aboriginal workers from cattle stations that had been deserted by their owners suddenly appeared and began to squat outside the town.

It was such an embarrassment for the state and federal governments that they attempted to suppress any news releases. I suppose White Australian Policy politicians had learned a bit from their Apartheid counterparts in South Africa.

The only way to compensate Aboriginal Australia is GIVE THEM THEIR BLOODY LAND BACK!

Oh, I just had a picture of Phil leaping 10 feet out of his chair when I said that.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 2:30:15 PM
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I'd like to Thank everyone who has contributed to
this discussion. I believe that every inhabitant
adds something to Australia. Makes it more
Australian than it would otherwise be. And obviously
there will be more Australians who will leave even
greater footprints on the pants seat of the world
in the future.

May we find a genuine workable way of lifting
our Indigenous people from the margin to the mainstream.
Many have tried - many people of goodwill have tried -
and there has been no shortage of resources. This is not
a question of spending. We've had experimentation and
failure, but we've failed to listen. Perhaps under the
right leadership - we will not only listen but actually
act.

We are a young country and our greatest glories are still
in front of us. A reminder to those who will take us into
our future, there are still many glories to be won in
every sphere of life as long as our country continues.

See you on another discussion - for me this one has now
run its course.

Take care.
Stay safe.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 2:39:24 PM
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Foxy,

You have a very good knowledge base and you are extremely articulate but you always look at people as being rational beings.

You need to take account of the irrational as much as the rational. The world runs on conflict just as much as it runs on consensus.

Look and Phil and I. On The Forum we look like two belligerents always locking horns with each other but in real life we are probably like two peas in a pod. Two big Aussie mates in harmony with the Universe.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 2:47:52 PM
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Mr O,

I'm slowly learning not to argue with "crazy".
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 4:16:17 PM
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'Read these and learn.

"A NEW report has called for the outlawing of traditional Aboriginal customs in remote communities that sanction violence against women and children and the promised marriage of girls as young as four[Get that? Four.]'

Hi Is mise

Those with a black armband narrative are simply like the hierachy of the Catholic church and numerous other organisations in the 1950's and 60's. They really don't want to know as it destroys their warped narrative.
Posted by runner, Monday, 25 May 2020 4:23:57 PM
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Aw shucks!
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 4:26:05 PM
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Foxy,

There you go again being the absolute rational thinker.

You must be one of those people who are still wondering what Monty Python was all about.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 4:48:25 PM
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Mr O,

"Life of Brian" was one of my favourites.
Always look on the bright side of life - good
ethos.

Then there's also the one - "How to irritate and
annoy people," which has some very helpful advice.
(smile).
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 4:55:58 PM
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Foxy,

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have had an impact on your penchant for rationality.

Stick to rationality. I'll look after the irrational.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 5:18:03 PM
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Mr O,

Rational arguments don't usually work on
narrow-minded people. Otherwise there would be
no narrow-minded people.

However systematically all of us make choices that
defy clear logic. That's because we all have emotions
(feelings) that get the better of us. It is ultimately
together that they work best.

You see sometimes being rational - makes us irrational.
(smile).

Enjoy your evening.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 25 May 2020 6:32:29 PM
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Foxy,

All that your do gooderism will achieve is more misery for Aboriginal people, not once have you addressed the issue of promised marriage and child brides.

Have you nothing to say about the mistreatment of young Aboriginal girls?

What about the right of an Australian girl to marry or not and when she so chooses?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 25 May 2020 7:41:53 PM
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Is Mise,

I don't think Foxy would be up to discussing this topic with you, especially to the depth that it deserves.

Obviously you're connected to the group going by your previous comments and sensitivity re this subject.

What traditional marriage system are we looking at? I'm guessing Crow-Omaha.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 25 May 2020 8:26:31 PM
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Opinion,

The only group that I'm connected with is Australia in this context and I want to see all Australians treated equally, not only Aboriginal girls but girls in other groups, such as Muslims.

Boys too, no male should be circumcised until he has reached the age of at least eighteen and certainly, it shouldn't happen out in the bush without anaesthetic and in unhygienic conditions even though the freshly broken bit of glass is clinically clean until the edge is touched.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 25 May 2020 8:54:01 PM
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Is Mise,

You know as well as I do that these are traditional practices associated with age grades.

And these and the particular marriage system a society have evolved are directed towards the survival of the group.

Some practices by men re women that appear to Westerners to be unfair and unequal are also directed towards protecting women. Like I was trying to tell Foxy, both the rational and irrational and conflict and consensus act to maintain a society. What looks strange to some is not so strange to others.

Any other social practices or things you object to?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 11:06:27 AM
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Is Mise,

It seems you want to discuss the complex problems
of Aboriginal communities - such as the abuse of under
age children, family violence, alcoholism, and many others.
This information is available on the web.

You will find that - unable to deal with past traumas
and current neglect many Aboriginal communities break
down. The abuse and other problems are symptoms of the
collapse.

Many Aboriginal communities and families fracture and break
down because Aboriginal people cannot deal with their
current situation but also because many governments have
neglected basic services and infrastructure for decades.

We need to understand how Aboriginal people have come to
suffer from transgenerational trauma.

1) The first generation of Aboriginal people after
colonisation - Aboriginal men and boys were killed,
imprisoned, enslaved, driven away, and deprived of the
ability to provide for their families. Women became
single parents and many children were conceived through
rape and forced prostitution.

2) In the second generation, Aboriginal people were
rounded up and sent to missions and reserves where they
were further removed from being able to obtain work,
balanced diets, housing, sanitation, health care and
education. This is the stage that the misuse of alcohol
and drugs became embedded as a mechanism for coping with
grief and the profound loss of dignity.

3) In the third generation Aboriginal children were
removed from their fractured families and placed into
non-Indigenous care environments where they suffered the
horrors of forced inferiority, deprivation and abuse
as documented for all to read in the - Report of the
National Inquiry into the Separation of Aboriginal Children
from their Families - in April 1997.

The majority of these children became parents without
exposure to parenting and therefore the opportunity
to develop parenting skills.

4) The government created the 4th generation in 2007 with
the NT Intervention which added another level of trauma
especially to Aboriginal men who were wrongfully suspected
to be members of pedophile rings.

All of these experiences add to an onion-like layer of
grief and trauma. Stolen land, lost language, lost
customs, stolen children, incarceration, the list
goes on.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 11:29:25 AM
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Is Mise,

If you want to focus on Aboriginal communities and
their perceived problems I suggest you start your
own thread on the topic.

I suspect that the problems within the Aboriginal
communities will bedevil Australia for many years
to come.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 11:36:14 AM
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Foxy,

Pray tell me why so many thousands of Aboriginal Australians who are University Graduates seem to drop out of sight and into the general community?

Until the current policies of racism are dropped and all Australians are treated equally then there will always remain a problem.

As for starting a separate thread, why bother?
I've raises other matters here in this thread and so far they have been ignored; as the originator of this thread, it is incumbent upon you to respond, not to decide that you can drop out when the going gets tough.

What about the Government's callous disregard for human life when to save lives would threaten revenue, does that not fit the future of Australianness?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 12:08:38 PM
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Foxy and Is Mise,

I'll leave you two to fight this one out, I've got bigger irrational fish to fry.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 12:19:42 PM
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Is Mise,

Experts want to see universities tap into
the potential of Aboriginal organisations to increase
student numbers.

Statistics about the total number of Aboriginal students
participating in higher studies vary significantly depending
on the agency that's gathering the data and due to
re-structuring and shifting responsibilities.

As a result data is inconsistent and sometimes missing
even from major sources of Aboriginal higher education
data. Political and racial values of statistical
gatherers and framers of questions further influence date
gathered.

There is argument however that enrolment retention and
completion rates are significantly lower than those of
non-Aboriginal students. The total number has increased
but because rates for non-Aboriginal students have also
increased their proportion of total university students has
remained at only about 1.3%.

Numbers are also low because specific groups of the
Aboriginal population are under represented. Such as
women as primary carers, students living in remote areas.
Young men, people in prison systems and people with
disabilities.

In addition some students chose not to identify as
Aboriginal to avoid racism.

Parents play a major role in helping children make it
through university. They are a driving force in
education. Also lets not forget that since colonisation
in 1788 - Indigenous Australians have been segregated
from non-Indigenous Australians both in their rights
and socially within society. So many who do successfully
complete their university studies come from mixed
marriages, mixed heritages and they may choose their
white ancestral paths.

The fact remains that there is a gap that exists in
so many critical social indicators in our society
and that is for any nation, particularly one
blessed as ours, unacceptable.

I started this discussion to give people a chance
to express their views on a variety of issues. It is not
my responsibility to hold any one's hand or to respond
to all the postings. Also I'm not dropping out as you
put it - when the "going gets tough." That's your
often used drum and it's wearing thin. It's also an
ignorant assumption.

After so many posting, this discussion for me at
least has now run its course.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 2:51:11 PM
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BTW: Aboriginal students choosing higher studies are
a minority, and likely to be older than their peers.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 2:55:31 PM
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Just to end on a humourous note.

Ben Pobjie, the author, comedian, and satirist
that I've quoted earlier during this discussion
and its only fitting that I should end with him,
tells us that:

" There are those who will say there is no point in
looking towards the past, that the important thing is
to look to the future. But I ask, how can one know where
one is going, if one doesn't know where one has been?"

"The answer: Google Maps."

"But in a less literal and more pretentious sense, hope
for the future must always be based on respect for the
past, and in recapping the history of Australia, we
hope passionately that we may learn something about
ourselves. Usually we don't, but still, it's a
great way to pass the time."

"What will the next 200 years bring for Australia?
More fun wars and exciting political power struggles?
Human cloning? Laser guns?
All these wonderful possibilities and more are out there.
Or it's possible that we'll all die of radiation
poisoning, or that the rising seas will swallow us".

"Whatever happens to Australia the country, we can be
sure of one thing: Australia's history, rich and
colourful and filled with heroism and drama, will live
on into infinity. And for that we can thank the hard-
working historical recappers who work themselves into
the ground to keep the flame of history alive for
future generations."

In other words, people like Ben Pobjie.

You're welcome.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 3:31:03 PM
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Foxy,

All very well, but why do Aboriginal graduates seem to drop from sight?
And why shouldn't Aboriginal girls have the same rights as other Australians?
Do you believe in underage marriages?

How about a comment on the callousness of Australian State Governments that put revenue over lives, you wanted to discuss Australianness, and that's a bit of Australianness for sure.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 3:50:59 PM
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Is Mise,

Please stop asking Foxy questions she cannot answer.

Foxy is locked into rationality and cannot see a world in which there is no normal.

If you really want to make Foxy happy just sing to her: 'Always Look on the Bright Side of Life'.

You just cannot be irrational with her. I've tried; it just doesn't work.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 4:09:09 PM
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Hi Is Mise,

I don't know what you mean by " .... why do Aboriginal graduates seem to drop from sight?"

For whom ? Overwhelmingly, Indigenous graduates find work in the mainstream, so that's where they are. No bugles, no trumpets, they're just working away like any other graduates.

How many ? To give you an idea, last year, around 14,000 Indigenous people turned, say, 20 or 24.

* At least 3,200 Indigenous students graduated from universities, overwhelmingly in mainstream degree or PH courses, 22-24 %.

* There are now around 46,000 Indigenous university graduates (the Census would put the figure at around 70,000).

* Annual totals for commencements and graduations increase by 7-8 % p.a.

* Two-thirds are women, and students and graduates are overwhelmingly urban, where they have been born and raised.

* Since 1994, around 120,000 Indigenous people have been enrolled at universities in Australia.

You can check these figures year by year on: https://www.education.gov.au/higher-education-statistics

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 5:26:28 PM
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Joe,

I mean that they are not seen pursuing treaties or sovereignty, they just get on with their lives as ordinary Australians.

Foxy,

Not so long ago you were arguing that there was but one Australian law and that it was there for all Australians, why the sudden change?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 10:51:37 PM
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Issy said; "I mean that they are not seen pursuing treaties or sovereignty, they just get on with their lives as ordinary Australians."

Not all Frenchmen joined the 'Residence', although post war 99% claimed they did. Not everyone who supports a cause is an activists. If you gunnie activists called for a protest march down Macquarie St in Sydney in support of your claimed inalienable right to shoot our fury friends how many of the claimed millions of Aussie gunnies would come out in protest? Four fifth of fa I suspect!
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 8:27:42 AM
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You suspect wrongly, Paul.

When the shooters did hold a protest march and rally in Sydney the head of the march was at Parliament House in Macquarrie St while protesters were still being debussed in Hyde Park south of Park St.
Media coverage was small considering that the gun owners protest was the biggest one since the Vietnam War protest marches.

I was employed at the Law Courts building and filmed the Pro march from the roof where I had a clear view to Park St and by crossing diagonally I had a clear view of Parliament House.

The Anti mob held a protest the following week and the media had to film them from various angles to get enough footage to make it look worthwhile, but the coverage on TV was saturating.

I also filmed this pathetic show from the footpath in Macquarrie St.

That was the modern Australianness in action and you perpetuate the lies and misinformation.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 9:22:28 AM
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Paul, "inalienable right to shoot our fury friends". What a peanut. Always the emotive crap, & never any truth in anything.

There are probably a few who shoot "fury things" for pleasure, I don't know, I've never met one, but I'll bet they are city folk. I own a few guns. One is a shot gun, & I ma proud to say it has provided food with almost every shot. Much of that was full hands of coconuts shot down when climbing tall old palms became a bit much.

I also own a 303, it has been used to dispatch a couple of sharks too big to bring aboard in the Solomons. The islanders like a bit of shark. Otherwise it is used to kill seed pods on cocos palms I was silly enough to let my lady & my mother plant around the pool. If partly severed when young they don't drop those horrible flying fox attracting little nuts, & don't grow into dangerous large pods.

The 22 was used to shoot the wild dogs from the national park, that maraud the area at night. With council requirements that our dogs must be retained, they could not protect my foals when I was still breading horses. I has to do that personally. That hasn't been used in about 10 years, but with my eldest wanting to bread a couple of horses, so her kids can grow up with them as she did, it might have to come out again. One thing is for sure, the council & national parks have done nothing to clean this vermin out of the parks.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 12:16:46 PM
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Phil,

I think you better polish up those rifles of yours because don't know if you have been watching the news but Xi has put China on military preparedness so I think we will be needing men like you on front line soon.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 12:25:04 PM
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Paul,

I'll add that at the rally/march mentioned there was absolutely no trouble and the police praised the shooters and the organizers.
There was no exhortation to violence; unlike the Greens, there were no appeals to break the law.

Some things that it taught were that there is no reason to ever trust the media and that politicians take no notice of protests on the street, hence the forming of the political party that now defends firearm owners and is such a thorn in the side of the Greens and that very undemocratic group, Gun Control Australia.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 1:24:31 PM
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Phil,

You better get those rifles ready because look what was just posted on the news:

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/hong-kong-crisis-trump-warns-china-he-will-take-action-as-protests-loom/ar-BB14DDMM?ocid=spartanntp
Posted by Mr Opinion, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 4:45:33 PM
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"but I'll bet they are city folk" Hassy, are you Jed Clampett?

Said you were shooting coconuts, "coconuts shot down when climbing tall old palms" Some disparagingly refer to my island relatives as "coconuts", I hope they weren't your target.

With all that shooting and hooting going on, did you ever have time to watch TV? 'Gunsmoke' would be a good show for you. With all that shooting going on, I may have lost some of the comprehension. Did you say you had to take a shot at your lady and mother because they got into the pool?

Issy, I recall the small but rowdy demo by the pro gun mob in Sydney. Their numbers were boosted by the 'skinheads' and 'Pro Nazi's' in attendance, some of your most loyal supporters. Did you get them on film?
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:07:17 AM
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Paul,

"Issy, I recall the small but rowdy demo by the pro gun mob in Sydney. Their numbers were boosted by the 'skinheads' and 'Pro Nazi's' in attendance, some of your most loyal supporters. Did you get them on film?"

You recall no such thing, that is just another of your Green lies; as I said the police praised the marchers and the organizers and at a fairly reliable count, based on the number of marchers in a measured length of Castlereigh St, the number was 37,000 (counted off film, not an estimate from the side of the street)
The ABC on the news put the figure at 20,000 and the police estimate was 22,000, both seriously wrong as there were 20,000 in Castlereigh St alone.
There wasn't a Skinhead or a pro-nazi in sight.

Obvious who is rattled.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 28 May 2020 9:01:30 AM
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China is knocking at the door.

Sydney is Australia's first Chinese city but looks like Victoria is going to get the title of Australia's first Chinese state.

Foxy has a Chinese name: Daiyu. I had my Chinese name picked out only to find 'Andrew Forrest' has already been taken.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Thursday, 28 May 2020 10:02:01 AM
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In my above post read Elizabeth St for Castlereigh.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 28 May 2020 10:33:01 AM
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"I was employed at the Law Courts building and filmed the Pro march from the roof where I had a clear view to Park St and by crossing diagonally I had a clear view of Parliament House."

Issy, as that was obviously not part of your terms of employment, YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED FOR TRESPASS.

Bussed in professional protesters, from gunnie clubs and other shooting galleries, sure, paid and financed by HQ at NRA America. The genuine number of radical right wing protesters that day was a few hundred, the rest were paid agitators, and the usual gun supporting nut jobs, Neo-Nazi's etc.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 28 May 2020 4:58:57 PM
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Issy, you always bang on about the Greens and drugs,then tell me why did the Shooters and Fishers do a preference deal with the HEMP Party? Was there free dope given out to party members or some such thing?
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 28 May 2020 5:26:08 PM
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Despaulation!!
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 28 May 2020 8:41:59 PM
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Hi Foxy, I'll throw this one in here, tell you about something very unusual concerting peoples ways and their response.

The wife is on Facebook groups. "T" tells me yesterday morning, we are having a hangi tonight. Where from I ask. Someone named Joe Joe, who the wife didn't actually know, JJ has put down a hangi for about 40 people. The message goes out if you need a feed contact mobile number. I ask what for, "T" its JJ's way of helping the whanau. I had to drive to JJ's place at 5.30pm and pick up 2 hangi's. I asked his wife, is this only for the Maori community. No, already given kai to Indian people, and some Muslim people (no pork people). As for payment, purely voluntary, make a koha (donation) only if you feel you can. These were very ordinary people, dealing with people they knew and people they didn't know. I can't imagine many Australians doing that sort of thing, can you? The wife thought it was perfectly normal. BTW it was a very good hangi worth the drive and the koha.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 31 May 2020 6:16:08 AM
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Paul1405,

Which goes to prove what I was saying of Life (the entity) that we are feeders.

I suppose in NZ you have that old expression "There's no such thing as a free hangi."

And I suppose now you will be hangi-ing out for another hangi, so where are you going to hangi out for the next hangi?

(PS. The The Forum text corrector drives me crazy. Can you image how many times I had to re-write 'hangi'? One has to be extra careful before hitting the Post Comment button otherwise you will end up saying some strange things as I have found to my chagrin.)
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 8:59:34 AM
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Paul,

Your wife sounds like a lovely person, making invaluable contributions to what it means to be Australian these days.

Australianness is surely an evolving and constantly changing multi-phenomenon, incorporating and taking all sorts of contributions from people from all over the world, not just in culture and work but in building a constantly-new and genuinely-inclusive country. Fine with me :)

Thank Christ there can never be either a return to the stale old days, OR a move to a country dominated by one group such as our Resident Half-Wit's constant sprays about Chinese. Not going to happen, Misopinonated. Shove your racism up your big wen.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 31 May 2020 11:33:39 AM
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And a big Aussie "Ni Hao Mate!" to you too LOUDmouth.

I suppose you're working on a sales pitch to get your state of South Australia signed up to China's Belt and Road initiative. With a bit of luck you might even be able to talk Gladys Liu into running for the job of Premier. You just have to keep your fingers crossed that Scott Morrison doesn't override Victoria's decision to sigh up to the BRI.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 12:31:32 PM
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Dear Paul and Joe,

I look at my own extended family - and the mix of
ancestries amongst our lot - from Lithuanians,
Brits, Scots, Swedes, Germans, Russians, Lebanese,
to more recently - Vietnamese. And I'm sure that this
will grow even further with my grandchildren.

In our quiet suburban court here in Melbourne,
we have Italians, Sri- Lankans, Macedonians,
Egyptians, Lebanese, and Chinese,
and Lithuanians all living beautifully together.
When this lockdown started we had neighbours ringing
us asking if we needed help - or anything from the shops?
They left their phone numbers in our letter box.
We did the same for them.

I agree with Joe - your wife is a lovely person. As are you.
As is Joe. We're all part of the tapestry of this country.
And helping each other is what we do. And will continue
to do.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 31 May 2020 1:52:26 PM
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Foxy,

Did you just see how LOUDmouth abused and made fun of the Chinese name you so kindly gave me?

Well, what are you going to do about it?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 2:04:12 PM
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Dear Foxy,

And you too !

I was just thinking, thanks to that accursed Ancestry.com, that even by 1900, my ancestors here were already so mixed that they would have had difficulty working out which ancestral homeland to return to - Ireland, England/Cornwall, Wales or Scotland - and it seems, according to my sister, that our grandmother, born about then and raised in the Hull work-house, had a Swedish father.

And my kids also have Aboriginal, Chinese and Italian ancestors. So it's a matter of circumstance and choice, although I'm easy with having affection and attachment for each of those groups and places. There could even be some West Indian in there as well (from 'Iboland' by way of Dominica).

So thankfully there will never be a return, if such a process was possible, to some mythical all-British past. Which, in any case, would be partly based on Middle-Eastern-farming and Roman-Empire ancestry anyway.

And can you imagine, Foxy, any copper here getting away with forcing his knee on the neck of anybody here, of whatever ethnic background, for several minutes, and being able to get up and away without being properly 'restrained' ? I think we'd rip the bastard limb from limb.

Love,

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 31 May 2020 2:48:50 PM
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That's very nice LOUDmouth but you still thought it was alright for you to abuse and make fun of my Chinese name.

How would you feel if people made fun of you not being able to get past Grade 6?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 3:15:50 PM
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Misopinionated,

I'd console myself with the thought that I'd still be a couple of years up on you :)

Maybe three.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 31 May 2020 3:19:33 PM
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Hi Foxy, Joe and Mr O.

Over the years I've been to the homes of so many different nationalities from all parts of the world, for dinners, parties etc, out to restaurants, all kinds of gatherings. All I've met make you most welcome. Just to give you the idea, a good Turkish mate, well educated with qualifications from top American universities. Hal's more Aussie than I am. Loves his kids, years back was so proud of how well they did at school. Hal is a "devout" Muslim, when the kids were little I went to his house for a Xmas catch up, BBQ, a few drinks. There in the corner is a decorated Xmas tree, with gifts underneath, when I asked "what the go with the tree" Hal say "well my kids are not going to miss out, Australian tradition". I was surprised the first time he offered me a scotch, good black label stuff, one for him one for me, according to the "devout" Muslim, what Allah don't see wont hurt him. Seems the majority of his Muslim mates like a beer as well, they were all having a beer with the BBQ, including his old father, his wife had a couple of wines, she knows her red wines, better than I do.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 31 May 2020 3:21:31 PM
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Paul1405,

So you've got some friends who are hypocrites ................ who hasn't?
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 3:31:51 PM
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Dear Joe and Paul,

I've always loved the Disney song - "It's
A Small World Aferall," because its part
of who we all are. And over the years I've
come to realise there's so much more that
unites us than divides us.

And it's that unification that will help us
and our grand children to hopefully one day
all live peacefully on this wonderful planet we all share.

Dear Joe, what's currently happening in the United
States is crazy. I'm so glad that we left when we did.
I would not want to live in that country today.
Australia really is a lucky country.

Mr O,

Have you ever seen any Chinese films? I recommend -
Ang Lee's - "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon". The
cinematography is spectacular. Also the next time that
the dance company - Shun Yen comes out to a major
city near you - go see them - quite spectacular.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 31 May 2020 3:55:15 PM
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OOOOps - my mistake.

I misspelled the name - the dance company should
have read - Shen Yun.

Also I forgot to add - there's a book worth reading -
"One Bright Moon," by Dr Andrew Kwong.
It's right up your alley Mr O.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 31 May 2020 3:59:02 PM
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Foxy,

You don't understand the point I have been making.

My beef is not with China the people, but with China the nation which I define as the global diaspora based on sociocultural and historical structures that I won't attempt to explain because I don't think it would be of any use to go into here.

It is the Chinese nation that I see as a problem, especially with a leader like Xi who has basically been installed as some type of resurrected Emperor Yu who is projected to the diaspora as the bringer of a new age in which a global nation will hold supremacy over the Other that Chinese have historically regarded as barbarians. They will turn the world upside down to put China at the top again.

I gather you, along with LOUDmouth, are in favour of Victoria signing up to China's Belt and Road Initiative because to you it would be seen as a unifying factor for the peoples of the world. I see it as a scheme of predatory expansion by the Chinese nation with the aim of creating a global empire out of the diaspora. We can see this already in some Third World countries especially in east Africa and will shortly see in the southwest Pacific.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 4:38:26 PM
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Mr O,

I prefer to
concentrate on the rich culture of the Chinese people
- and
the tremendous contribution that so many of their
people have made to our world - in the fields of
medicine, science, education, the arts, and so on.

We have many Chinese Australians who are part and parcel
of our country and who continue to contribute so much.

Communist China is to be watched - definitely, but then
so are other super powers like Russia, and the US. What's
currently happening in the US - we don't want to happen
here.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 31 May 2020 5:08:09 PM
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Foxy,

Do you support Victoria signing up to China's Belt and Road Initiative? I have the impression that you do.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 5:17:51 PM
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Misopinionted,

I'm sure that neither Foxy or I want Victoria to sign up to the Belt and Road project. We differentiate between

* the Chinese government - a repressive, totalitarian, chauvinist government -

* and the Chinese people, whom it represses, especially its non-Han minorities.

And we also have the maturity to be able to distinguish Chinese people from China-proper from those in Hong Kong, and those in Singapore, and in Taiwan, and in all of the other countries of south-east Asia. And from Japanese, Korean, Filipino/Filipina, Thai, Cambodian, Lao, Burmese and Indonesian people, which you seem to have great difficulty doing.

And of course, from Australian-born Chinese whose ancestors were here probably well before yours. I went to a funeral in Darwin in 1960 for an old Chinese man who had been born in the Territory but, as you would have concurred, never could become an Australian citizen.

Yes, it s a complicated world in which we have to make fine distinctions - it would be so much easier for you, I suppose, if the world was simply 0 or 1 - on or off - this or that. i.e. a Manichaean world.

But it's not, and never has been.

Joe
Posted by loudmouth2, Sunday, 31 May 2020 6:21:56 PM
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Mr O,

Beyond the economics, the Belt and Road initiative
carries clear political risks for Australia.

Australia's attempts to balance its alliance with
the US and economic interdependence with China has
become even more difficult as both have become
"rude and nasty" in pursuit of their interests under
Donald Trump and Xi Jinping.

Tying ourselves ever more tightly to either protagonist
is imprudent. The more the US and China beat each other
up - the more room for manoeuvre the other powers will
have.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 31 May 2020 7:10:43 PM
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Foxy and LOUDmouth,

I say sign up! I have been saying that Australia has a Chinese future so I reckon it will show that I have been right all along. So, sign up and prove me right so that I can have the last :)

The BRI is just another chance for China to get a foot in the door. It will provide the funding for infrastructure projects but it will make sure they are done with Chinese technology, materials, and manpower. The only thing the recipient will get out of the deal is a big debt and an increasingly Chinese community that won't be going home and won't give two hoots about your multicultural ideals.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 31 May 2020 8:57:20 PM
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Hi Mr O,

The wife's cousin (true) Dennis has a message for you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCBeCeKv4Y8

He must be whanau, once charged me 25 bucks NZ for one of his CD'd, which I thought he gave me as a gift. Gee, what happened to the good old days when a smart whitefella like me could have got half of Aotearoa for a blanket and a hand full of beads?
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 31 May 2020 9:16:46 PM
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Mr O BTW, I later seen the same CD in the 'Wharehouse' (a big version of our Reject Shop) on sale for $7. Can't trust those Maori, they take advantage of us poor whitefella. I suppose not as bad as my brother-in-law who slug me 100 bucks for 4 of his CD's back in the day. (the one with the hat). Be careful of singing Maori's with CD's to sell you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGJYzITNM6s
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 31 May 2020 9:33:13 PM
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Paul1405,

Thanks for the video. I just love country & western.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 1 June 2020 10:38:30 AM
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//I just love country & western.//

That explains a lot.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 1 June 2020 5:45:59 PM
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