Noted economist and commentator, Judith Sloan, has a few words to say today in Catallaxy Files under the heading, "Beware the 'experts'". She refers to a much longer piece by an American, William L. Anderson, whose article can also be read on the same site. I've never heard of him, so I'm sticking with Sloan, who sees things from our Australian point of view. Her summing up is as follows:

Initially, there was a case for seeking expert advice because political decisions had to be made in a hurry. But since then, it is clear that the experts are just making it up. "They have no understanding of economic costs", and just make calls "according to the principle of extreme caution".

She makes particular reference to Queensland's Chief Health Officer, who is one of the 'experts' in a "made up job" : the sort of job that was handed out to "political mates" after their clinical careers had often "stalled".

She asks if it has been a case of "pick your expert", as there has been conflicting information between state and Commonwealth 'experts', and adds that the whole thing has really been about politics.

Most of the imposed social restrictions have not been based on real evidence. The closure of international borders being the exception. And the "consistent messages", making us feel like "mugs" are not appreciated.

Rather than the coronavirus leading to an era when people pay more respect to the so-called experts, Judith Sloan's guess is that the reverse will happen: experts will be seen as narrow, self-seeking types with no skin in the game. "They deserve to be treated with suspicion and scepticism".

ttbn- Yes we should be careful not to give up our judgement to experts. Good point.

Experts are more likely to get things right than the general population, but are far from infallible. What's really needed is crowdsourced scrutiny of what the experts are saying, so that the errors and shortcomings (occasionally in their reasoning but more often in their assumptions) can be quickly identified and corrected. This is something that's well suited to working at home, so deserves to be high on the government's list of priorities at the moment.

It won't be, though. The government would rather avoid scrutiny, and would prefer to pick experts to support conclusions already reached.

I tend to appreciate people who know rather than experts !

Yeah, we should put our trust in ignorance instead of expertise. Let's get bricklayers to perform surgery, surgeons to look after the taxation department, accountants to do chemical analysis, analytical chemists to mind children, childcare workers to defend criminals and lawyers to lay bricks. It will be a great social experiment, lots of fun for everyone, and I'm sure there are no hidden downfalls.

Or maybe some people might like to get over themselves and accept the fact that sometimes, over-endowed with exceptional wisdom and common sense as they may be, sometimes people who have been specifically trained in one area of expertise and who have worked and gained experience in that field for their entire working life, maybe - just maybe - know slightly more about their area of expertise than 'commentators' - commentators being people whose meaningful contributions to the advancement of mankind ranks somewhere between that of advertising executives and junkies.

I assume we are talking about the cornavirus and the expert medical advice government has relied upon to navigate a safe passage through the pandemic for the vast majority of Australians. At all times the experts, people like Professor Brendan Murphy, have reiterated that they were advising on a situation that was unprecedented. Despite the great difficulties so far, and things can change without a moments notice, Australia has dodged a bullet and the evidence shows that there are many Australians alive today who otherwise would be dead.

Compared to others, our political leadership has performed well in this crises. Unlike Trump in America, and now some fool in Brazil who have disregarded real expert advice and taken it upon themselves to dole out the "knowledge" with disastrous consequences.

I agree Tony.

Sure we get to see the flaws of many high profile people in key professions, including corrupt politicians and poor health practitioners and so on, but i am pretty confident to state that the majority of professionals are competent.

Having said that, having worked in academia, and for a parliamentarian, i would have to say that only a minority of so-called elites go well beyond what is expected in terms of setting or upholding a very high standard.

But this reality would also apply to virtually all professions.

Paul- I don't think it takes an expert to understand a bell curve. All it takes is to watch "The Devil Wears Prada" and know that fashion and markets and pandemics have a life cycle and there are milestones along the way. The value of the experts is to highlight the milestones. Some have said that we should teach statistics rather than calculus in High School- I'm not sure- but they have a point.

On a per capita basis Australia is doing better than most countries of the world. I'm surprised given 30k Chinese arrived in Melbourne from China after the embargo and ships were allowed to port in Sydney. I'm unsure if this is due to management or due to other factors.

The US is doing fairly well on a deaths per capita basis.

# Country "Cases/1M pop" "Deaths/1M pop"
1 San Marino 19279 1209
2 Belgium 4796 784
3 Andorra 9851 660
4 Spain 5950 593
5 Italy 3735 529
6 UK 3632 513
7 France 2757 433
8 Sweden 3010 366
9 Sint Maarten 1798 350
10 Netherlands 2577 332
11 Ireland 4908 314
12 Isle of Man 3942 282
13 USA 4667 277
14 Channel Islands 3190 248
15 Switzerland 3538 218
16 Montserrat 2204 200
17 Luxembourg 6318 171
18 Canada 2069 155

World 624.6 40.9

The US appears to be doing better than Italy, Spain, UK, France, Sweden, Ireland. If this is proof that Trump is a bad leader then he has a lot of company.

How many of you have looked into the biographies of these 'experts' to see which of them has training in viruses and epidemics?

The Queensland Premier was reported as saying, "Had we not united in our health response we could have seen over 30,000 Queenslanders lose their lives". 30,000? I wonder which 'expert' fed her that figure.

Paul confuses experts with politicians, and tells us how well our government has done. Let's talk about that government:

Constitutional lawyer, Professor David Flint, regards the 'National Cabinet', which has wrecked the economy, as being unconstitutional. The cabinet represents an "unconstitutional seizure of power", never agreed to by the people.

It makes the claim about how our Constitution cannot be changed without the consent of the people sound hollow. The Morrison government has just ignored the people and done want it wanted. Anyone interested can find many instances where Australian governments have acted unconstitutionally in all matter of areas.

Flint says that there was "never was an emergency which justified the use of such extreme powers".

Bad Dog !

Yeah ! I'm pissed off that the Chinese have developed this so-called 'virus' to target the US while ignoring Australia like we're nothing.

The US is handling the situation with great success, more success than any other event in history, enormous success - so how come we can't have 92,000 deaths like the US under the current masterful leadership, while we have only a piddly one hundred ? Are we just too insignificant to worry about ? Why aren't we following the US's lead on this ?

Every day, Australia has barely one death while the US manages successfully to have more than a thousand - around 1,600 yesterday alone. What's wrong with our health system ? Why can't it keep up ?

In fact, we're falling further behind with every passing day. We're likely to have fewer than two hundred deaths from this virus by, say, the end of this year, total failure, the worst failure in history, while the US could successfully have two hundred THOUSAND deaths by election day ! Not only that but they'll re-open their economy to growth and fortune far earlier than our pusillanimous 'leaders' dare to do.

Do we need Scaredy Cat 'leaders' shielding behind their 'experts' ? NO ! We need Captain Marvel leaders, bold, the boldest in history, to lead !

Joe

TDS

CM, like Trump you see the pandemic as a competition, where the winner finishes last. Trump earlier touted 100,000 as a good number, now as the US death toll reaches, and will soon surpass that figure within days, will Trump come up with a new best result, say 200,000. The reality is Trumps primary concern is the profits of capital, and of course saving his own hide. I understand he is claiming to be on his much touted miracle drug hydroxychloroquine. Is he also consuming a daily dose of disinfectant as well, as he also put forward diso as a cure. Dangerous Doctor Donald, the medical EXPERT!

Toni Lavis,
If these experts are so knowledgable, why don't we ever get to see them perform expertly ?
Or, are you implying that all these expert commentators on the ABC are of actual benefit to us just by giving their expert opinion ?

Given the madcap fining of people in Australia for breaking virus 'laws', the UK experience might be of interest; there, all prosecutions under their Coronavirus Act have been unlawful. The CPS revealed all 44 charges it had so far checked had been withdrawn or overturned. It might be worth the while of offenders here to appeal against the far too easy and lazy on the spot fines handed out in Australia, particularly in the People's Republic of Victoria.

Yeah, we should put our trust in ignorance instead of expertise.
Toni Lavis,
I did say people who know not ignorant academic experts. Aren't we literally forced to put our trust into ignoramuses in Authority every day ? Aren't all decisions in authority made by such people ? How many people in authority are not highly educated/indoctrinated ? Could a lesser educated person actually stand a chance of getting into authority ?
I'm not on about professionals, I'm on about experts who don't actually do anything besides talking on the ABC !

Individual,

Can you get it through your head that there may be four million people in Australia with university qualifications, but only a small fraction of those are academics ? i.e. working at higher education institutions ? The rest are all out there working in all sorts of organisations.

And even some of those academics, at universities and VET/TAFE colleges, are actually doing a hell of a good job. I certainly remember many wonderful, hard-working, thoughtful lecturers and tutors at uni, as I'm sure many of us on OLO can. One lovely bloke teaching us demography in the late seventies had worked in Indonesia and contracted malaria there. He still used to come to work with us, shivering and sweating. Now deceased, but never, never forgotten.

So differentiate:

*. four million graduates, many with their Fine Arts or Performing Arts degree, or Film Direction, or Games Development, so many expecting early and world-wide recognition of their amazing talents, but now working on the check-outs at Coles or Aldi

from

*. 122,000 academics working at universities in 2018 (Ed. Dept figures, on: https://www.education.gov.au/higher-education-statistics), maybe half of whom are actually doing a good job, leaving sixty thousand or so for you to get stuck into, out of nearly four million graduates.

Not all graduates are academics. Not all excellent tradespeople are officially qualified or did apprenticeships. Some of both also may actually be shonks. Takes all types.

Joe

Australia's response to the pandemic has so far been
successful compared to other nations. Of course despite
our successes we have made some major blunders.

For example, allowing 2700 passengers to disembark from
the Ruby Princess cruise ship on 19 March even though
many were showing 19 like symptoms. More than 600 cases have
now been linked back to the ship.

Then there's been some Australians who have also ignored
social distancing recommendations and crammed into beaches
and parks.

We now have the Australian government who's looking at
ways to ease restrictions but won't make decisions until
it sees how the coming weeks pan out.

One option that's being tried is lifting restrictions
slowly in individual states and territories on a trial
basis before applying the changes nationally.

At the moment about 10% of Australians who've caught the
virus don't know how they got it which is a sign of
community spread. Although this is a small proportion it
could easily spiral out of control if all regulations
are lifted too early and people are allowed to mix freely.

" We cannot relax yet," seems to be the general consensus.

One of the things that Australians should be concerned about regarding this National Cabinet' - apart from it's very dubious existence - is Morrison's recent inclusion on it of ultra-Left, foreign politician, Jacinda Ardern. Who's next: Xi Jinping?

Arden, referred to by Augusto Zimmerman as "Kommissar of the Kiwis", has done enough insulting of Australia and making rude comments about our inner workings without being asked. She is not the sort of person that would be tolerated in Australia by the general electorate. Yet our increasingly dogmatic PM includes her in our business.

Even New Zealand's Human Rights Commissioner, Paul Hunt, has serious concerns about Ardern's own "draconian" and "rushed" laws on the China virus, describing her action as a "great failure of our democratic process".

This is the same woman who rushed through "the most extreme abortion law in the world”. Not nice. Not wanted. Not an Australian.

The right to farm.
Government supports risk based regulation. “ A risk-based planning permit process based on site selection, design and land management practices is therefore supported by state govt:
A grab for money for shires.
Are our lawmakers impartial.
Farm viability.
SPU values that are pathetic. A grown pig is the value of 1.8 pigs.
Persons in positions that should not be there.
Fraudulent activity.
Vested interests.
Australia on the verge of importing milk and pig meat and chook eggs.
ASF and Calesy Virus act in the same manner, they both cause internal hemorrhage. Coincidence or not.
The worlds most restrictive farm rules apply in Victoria Australia.
Red tape is killing farms. The latest farm rules September 2018 is the most restrictive ever.
Over governed, Dealing in problems that is not their responsibility. Town planning in a FZ zone is treated the same as any other zoning. Locked in allowances as what happens on your farm, which is the most restrictive load of B/S ever.
A planning permit consists of involvement of items that are covered by a host of other agencies. There has to be separation of involvement. If a problem arises the shire would not want to know about it, they get the appropriate agency to deal with it. Their involvement finishes when the planning permit is delivered. [Albeit with money up front of course]
Names of persons unmentioned, A panel of animal experts assumed impartial. What do we need council for ? To collect the money of course.
cont:

We have reached the stage where farmers have no say in what they do on farm we are run by “criteria” is the name of the game how to run a farm from a distance. The day of the simple farmer that can think for themselves has finished, now you need a university degree just to fill in an application form. Farmers are now dictated to as to what and how they operate. That is called systematic control. The top level of govt; make the bullets and lower govt; fire the shots.
“Bio Security” is an un-defendable open ended word with multiple uses used to dampen down any and all proposals. The word is used without explanation. If they were really worried about Bio Security they would get rid of the gigantic population of wild pigs. People that do not immunize are a Bio security concern.
Did this ASF really come from Africa where the disease has been for hundreds of years or is it a disease that was used for something else. Something’s do not suite the mould somehow.
Animal foods manufactured on site with only ingredients grown on site with imported hay is the safest and less likely with contamination from meat meal or dodgy additives like supermarket producers use.
Pigs and chickens are complementary and you should not be worried about chickens eating pigs or pigs eating chickens with proper feeding they have no problems, If problems arise it’s the farmer who is at fault not the pigs. With Australia roaming with 24 million wild pigs, domesticated pigs are a minor concern. Animal experts should know that. The word of the day is “Bio security”
Off farm animal food is seen as the trigger for intensive animal farming, does that include material bought in to aid manufacture of food pellets on farm, probably seen as a “Bio security concern.
Every time I have been to the council office I get a drip feed of information, so I adjust my plans to suite the new information I have been given.
cont;

Towns floundering like dying fish is best served with progressive ideas and not obstructionist views. Employment should be the goal.
If farming is to evolve the farmer must be free to experiment as to what is grown or kept on farm, as it stands now the farmer has his hands tied. One animal constitutes a planning permit albeit a “simplified process.” Which is not worth the effort of writing the words. What is the definition of a farm. What is a mixed farm. The whole process is more about how much money you have to pay upfront, guided by persons that are ill informed.
So now I have another plan poultry and pigs. [all to suite the simplified process] This was found to be riddled with complications. “pigs and chickens grazing together is a Bio Security concern. That should include Kangaroos, crows, wild ducks, galahs, and sparrows.
At the time of interview it was assumed best to apply for maximum stocking numbers allowable to cater for any overrun of stock. I was not expecting the application to be fobbed off to other persons of names not before mentioned, or a panel of animal experts which makes an interview useless.
Council need to read their constitution or charter to refresh their customer service practices.
Twelve months of trying to get the necessary permits has resulted in nothing gained, there seems to be local laws as well as state laws with some thrown in which you are only allowed to know about slowly, when you take every obstruction into account your business plans become “unviable and worthless”.
Native Title happens at a depth over .6 meter. It just happens that piping crossing a laneway has to be at .750 meters. This ensures that money is collected for entering native title land.
Small scale farming is a bugbear for some councils even though no “Encumbrances’” were documented on the section 32. This may suggest my obstructions were self interest.
Surely native title is an encumbrance. As is the inability to make decisions.
cont;

Not all graduates are academics. Not all excellent tradespeople are officially qualified or did apprenticeships. Some of both also may actually be shonks. Takes all types.
Loudmouth2,
Exactly, I totally agree with that ! What Toni Lavis is so vehemently defending is that we should automatically acknowledge academic experts as knowing & useful people ! To that I say some are but many aren't yet they are put on pedestals as sort of pillars of society !
We really should look into the cost effectiveness of so many "educated" people. Education is merely the first step, what they do afterwards & demand to get handsomely paid for by us taxpayers is another story because most aren't entering private enterprise, they mostly end up in some Govt Dept.doing only God knows what.

With rubbery figures of chicken stocking rates like 1500, 2500, or 10,000 / Ha. With meat birds the turn- around time is only 10 to12 weeks. On that timeframe a flock of chickens would be on grass for 4 to 5 weeks.
Conglomerates control council and cover their tracks by telling lies. Animal fat is no good for your health. “Why” Because the rubbish that aid the growth of animals gets stored in the fat of the animal. Eating supermarket pig meat is far worse than eating the fat of pig raised naturally, as was done for hundreds of years. We deny people the choice of eating natural matured food unadulterated from any poisonous supplementation.
A pig is a pig once the age of 26 weeks have passed no matter how old the pig becomes or what condition it is in. It is still a pig and not 1.8 pigs.
Stocking numbers based on grazing animals is a flawed way of calculation.
Double stocking rates with alternate vegetation other than grass. Stock numbers are not there forever.
Farmers are best to decide stocking rates according to what is being grown on farm at any particular time.
I read on the dept; of agriculture website that a freehand drawing was all that was necessary for this new simplified process. What qualifications are necessary to put together an acceptable application. No doubt we are talking about money.
The so called panel of experts that rule with overwhelming power. Have their impartiality ever been checked out.
A virus that ruined an entire industry is at large in Au and who knows where that will end up. Instead of dealing with the situation our governing bodies who know best and allow a deadly virus to escape “accidently of course” have ruined an industry that can feed millions and had massive export potential.
Government interference on farms should not happen they can not be trusted. Lets take European carp, and calysi virus for a small example. All of which are a “Bio Security Concern”

cont:

Meat meal in chicken and other animal feed pellets [ when did that stop] or has it. Animal blood is a protein regulator. [sun dried blood is 100 % protein]
If Australia is ever going to have trouble with animal diseases it is going to come from the north with wild buffalo and 24 million wild pigs, which are rampant in most states.
The right to farm: Is a phrase still used since conception, but we are that top heavy with authority that are not practically experienced. Farm governance comes from supermarket suppliers of filthy produced meat product. The nation of Australia is in diabolical trouble of becoming a third world country very quickly.
We have persons in positions of power that should not be there. With no animal experience telling farmers what is the most appropriate way of farming. Shires now cannot make decisions for themselves as they do not have the experience necessary to see reason.
The new farming laws are nothing more than a grab for money. One pig now must have a town planning approval without exception. Next is sheep and goats.
Our Victorian government says you have a right to farm, the government also says they accept risk based farming.

cont;
.

Australia is on a massive slide into poverty, suffering in miss management and vested interests we are stuffed.
After waiting twelve months for a permit. A permit did arrive but this was marked as a planning permit only and not a building permit which is what they had all along. If they were running a business they would be broke many times over by now. I am not going to go through another 12 months of nothing in order to get a building permit. I have other interests to look after. They must think people have nothing else to do but wait on those that time means nothing to. The most unorganized pathetic shire I have ever had the displeasure to have any dealings with.
A 12 month time frame should have been 21 days for a permit and 11 months for me to get the farm up to a management standard with full training of employees. These people think you have nothing to do other than wait on them to fumble through whatever they make themselves involved in. Now there is no further employment in a town full of ageing persons all because of inability to make decisions and no idea of what it takes to run a business. let alone gross bureaucratic mismanagement.
Get persons that are competent of what they are supposed to do.
How many others are to go through this mishmash of nothing. The entire system needs privatizing to get the appropriate action to support a failing economy.
All they wanted was the twelve hundred $ to get half a permit. [Up front]

I received the Permit approval on the 28/11/2019 Permit 5452.
Since I have now returned from overseas to find an approval that is virtually useless to me.
There will be no pigs, no chickens no employment no construction and no water connection Are mixed farms now extinct for bio security reasons

I will not be submitting or answering any more questions only to have such items fobbed off misconstrued or not passed on. And I would not want to be tagged as a bio security concern. A former employee of council made comments to me that now are making sense.

This is what animal experts and shires are responsible for.
70 per cent of the ham and bacon eaten in Australia comes from pigs grown on the other side of the world and that's what consumers don't understand.
END

'Yeah, we should put our trust in ignorance instead of expertise.'

We know Toni just like Saint Greta who is an advisor for gw and now health policy. Along with deviants from Hollywood in their mansions the left love to take advice from this 16 year old suffering from autism.

We can take lessons from the way Australian governments
responded to the corona virus; that good decisions are
made when they consider the evidence and the best
available expert advice; and that policy making can
accommodate reasonable differences of opinion, without
becoming a "war".

Think of the difference it would make if interviewers and
commentators allowed room for discussion of complex and
competing ideas, before demanding that politicians
rule them "in" or "out".

Now consider if these principles were applied to other
policies and policy making in Australia. Perhaps we could
learn that listening to experts and putting politics aside
is not a bad idea.

Remember the earlier days when WHO said we should not wear face masks unless we are ill - and the general reversal now - that everyone should wear face masks? I think this shows how we need our own judgment and not plainly follow what experts think. Even experts have differing opinions among themselves.

Economist Peter Smith asks whether there has ever been a more ill-informed, recklessly destructive example of public policy in the history of mankind than the Great Lockdown, then answers his own question; of course there has: Mao's Great Leap Forward and Stalin's Great Purge.

Doesn't say much for Morrison's Great Leap into recession, does it?

The Public Health 'experts', whose "overblown predictions caused governments to rain down devastation on pliable populations", will never be brought to account because the government has a vested interest in "maintaining the fiction that countless deaths were saved by following their experts’ advice"

France's highest court has ruled that the banning of worship as part of the lockdown was/is illegal.

the banning of worship as part of the lockdown was/is illegal.
ttbn,
Looks like the french Govt is waking up to having been handed a solution on a silver platter !

//I did say people who know not ignorant academic experts.//

Do you really expect me to believe that the average man in the street is as knowledgeable about law as Professor of Law? Or as much as about physics as a physics researcher? Sure, individual. And I'm a turnip.

I'm not debating the usefulness of various academic disciplines. Maybe you think scientific progress doesn't benefit mankind, or that medical developments are a waste of taxpayer's money, or whatever. If you think pure mathematics is pointless waste of time, then you're entitled to your opinions, but don't try and tell me that mathematicians can't do maths. That is nonsense on stilts.

//I'm on about experts who don't actually do anything besides talking on the ABC !//

But if all they do is talk on the ABC then they are, by definition, NOT academics. How hard is this to comprehend, individual? Academics have day jobs. They mostly work at educational institutions, doing teaching and research.

Occasionally, people seek them out for expert opinions. The court system does this - academics are sometimes called upon as 'expert witnesses'; for instance a biology academic might be called as an expert witness to talk about DNA evidence.

And sometimes, journalists will call upon academics to offer their expertise on a story; for instance if some new exciting archaeological discovery was made, they'd probably be more likely to ask an archaeologist for his views than some random bloke down the pub. But just because the archaeologist has been invited to appear on the news for 30 seconds of two minute story, it doesn't mean that he doesn't spend the rest of his time fighting Nazis, stealing priceless treasures and narrowly avoiding fiendishly designed traps like all archaeologists do as their normal day job.

Are you just jealous because they get to be on telly and you don't? You could try out for a reality show, the genre is in sore need of some grumpy old men to liven it up.

Hi Toni, you have to understand poor Indys lot in life. At the best of times he was employed at menial tasks, in between visits to Centrelink for his dole payments. This led to much resentment of success of others in poor Indy as he struggled along in life. He had migrated from the Old Country to Aussie many years back. About 25 years ago he reached "retirement" age, how you retire off the dole I beyond me, but Indy managed it. He has ever since been attached to the government welfare teat as an Aged Welfare recipient. If you ever need an expert on filling out Centrelink forms Indy is your man, has years of experience.

then they are, by definition, NOT academics
Toni Lavis,
Ok, then what is a Uni academically educated person who does no obvious useful work called ?

Why do we need experts who have extensive formal training and lots of knowledge under their belt to work things out when we have plenty of people like Barnaby Joyce running the country?

PS And don't forget we have our own secret weapon: Andrew Forrest.

Paul 1405,

Your personal attack on individual is a disgrace.

How does that song go, “Everyone an expert, baby. That’s no lie. We aim to satisfy….”

What is an expert? An old Definition, but still true:
“X is the unknown factor & a spert is a Drip under pressure.”

ttbn: Judith Sloan's guess is that the reverse will happen: experts will be seen as narrow, self-seeking types with no skin in the game. "They deserve to be treated with suspicion and scepticism".

Gawd, she’s a bit late. I came to that conclusion about 50 years ago.

Paul1405: Compared to others, our political leadership has performed well in this crisis.

Yes, I think he has. There was the initial response. Such as, “let’s wait & see & hope it’s not as bad as it looks.”

When it was realized that it was even worse than it looks an appropriate response was initiated. Against those who thought they lose out the most. Those who have no regard for peoples health only their own pockets.

Unlike Trump in America, and now some fool in Brazil who have disregarded real expert advice and taken it upon themselves to dole out the "knowledge" with disastrous consequences.

America is America & the people have reacted as I would expect Americans to react. “You cain’t tell me what to do. I have Raights. I’m a ‘Merican.” & they consequently are paying the price. They still don’t get it. Ay. (shakes head)

ttbn: How many of you have looked into the biographies of these 'experts' to see which of them has training in viruses and epidemics?

What di I see. A load of Economists experts foretelling Doom & Gloom. They are the ones that are professing to be the “Experts.”

Drug Company Experts that don’t want people using readily available, & cheap, medication because they’ll not make anything out of this disaster.

Socialist /Marxists willing to take a advantage to preach their vile Dogma.

That’s what I see. Ay.

//Ok, then what is a Uni academically educated person who does no obvious useful work called ?//

A Fine Arts Professor.

I can see both sides of this. I also have no skin in the game.

As an 80 year old, after 3 heart attacks & resultant lung damage, I am one of the more vulnerable. I appreciate some protection, but think perhaps another approach may have been better.

As an ex operator of tourist operations in the Whitsundays I can see the other side of it. There are large companies which operate on slim margins. Even a couple of weeks of no income would have them in trouble.

However it is the thousands of small operations, private family operations with a couple of hundred thousand or a couple of million invested, much of it borrowed, who will have very little chance of survival. These are people who have worked 15 hour days, with perhaps a day or 2 off a month for many years. It is very true to say these people & whole families "live" their business. Their lives & every cent they have are invested in the business.

I don't know the answer, but these people don't deserve to be destroyed by a government medical officer order, a bureaucrat with no skin in the game.

Perhaps we should be locking up the infected, & the possibly infected, rather than the healthy. Surely we could have the police ensuring the infected stay locked up, rather than issue huge fines to the healthy. Yes it might be a lot harder for government that way, but destroying the liver of perhaps millions is not a good look to me.

"Perhaps we should be locking up the infected,....." Even red crosses painted on their doors a possibility!

Going back to 1665? I know you hanker for the good old days Hassy, but 1665, that's even a bit rich for you.

Tl: The court system does this - academics are sometimes called upon as 'expert witnesses'; for instance a biology academic might be called as an expert witness to talk about DNA evidence.

True, but the Court System doesn’t call a Biology expert to give an opinion on Astronomy. Does it. That’s what we see. Experts giving their opinion outside of their expertise is the equivalent of me giving my opinion.

Believe me Academics are entirely useless at anything outside their area of expertise. Most of them can’t even tie their own shoelaces.

Indi: Ok, then what is a Uni academically educated person who does no obvious useful work called ?

A Bludger, & there are lots of them. Navel Gazers?

I do like TL’s definition too. “Fine Arts Professor.” Good one mate.

And yet ...... and yet ........

There are such people as experts - surely every one of us has come across such people, whizes at all manner of skills, with abilities we can barely comprehend. My poor old step-father had incredible skills with radio and electronics, good builder too, very thorough.

I've had lecturers who seemed to know their field up, down and sideways, awake and in their sleep. Brilliant. And plenty of us would have had experience of incredible tradespeople who could work magic.

I have every confidence in people like Brendan Murphy, Nicola Spurrier here in SA, Dr Fauci in the US, in relation to the Covid-19 virus. And if only other leaders had had the courage and intelligence to act fast like Morrison and our state Premiers, instead of dithering and denying - 'It'll go away soon, you'll see, one day it will just be gone ...." [95,000]. Or just now restrict air travel into Britain [May 21]. Infants running (or with the power and obligations to run) incredibly complex economic and political systems. Which need courageous experts like Murphy and Fauci.

Fauci for President in 2020 !

Joe

Loudmouth2: There are such people as experts - surely every one of us has come across such people, whizes at all manner of skills, with abilities we can barely comprehend. My poor old step-father had incredible skills with radio and electronics, good builder too, very thorough.

Yep. My dad was like that & only went to 7 Grade in School Ran successful Businesses. Taught us 7 kids all manner of stuff, even the girls. I've known a few others like that.

I've also known many Academics that know squat even about their own Subject. I had a Computer Teacher, (Professor) who dazzled us with with his knowledge of setting up a Computer 100's of lines of Code. (25 years ago) Then I stepped in & & did the same thing in 8 lines. He called me out later & told me never to make a fool of him again. I just told him that he wasn't there to impresses us with his astoundingly better than us knowledge. He was there to teach us how to get the Computer going & how to use it. He didn't like me one bit after that. I don't stand for uppity smug people.

I've had two neighbours that were Academics. Totally useless outside their own Subject. One couldn't even start a Lawnmower.

Experts in their Field, maybe, Maybe just a small part of their field. But a lot of these Academics are commenting on subjects not with-in cooee of their own subjects.

Their reckoning is, " I'm an Academic therefore you should take notice of me." BS.

Even during WWII, no democratic government dared to exercise the control over citizens that they have in 2020 with the China virus, according to Christopher Carr on Quadrant Online. "Under the cloak of saving lives and easing pressure on the public health system, the relationship between government and the governed has been entirely reversed". NB: Entirely reversed.

All due to the unelected, not particularly well qualified, 'experts' and their discredited models, the politicians are fronting for.

While the government can keep people fearful (with continuing and regular 'helpful' and costly on air exhortations on what not to do, as if we are all idiots e.g) the government will remain in the good books. But once the suggestions that the pandemic has been exaggerated "gains traction'' - when even Blind Freddy gets it - public opinion will turn against the government "on a dime".

I'm not sure that Australians will turn on the government. I think that they are too acquiescent and lethargic to do that. They have become too dependent on big government and cheap stuff from China. They will probably continue to line up outside Centrelink, hooded heads down over Chinese mobile phones that they somehow always have the money to fiddle with.

No, Australians will not turn on their governments over the coronavirus.

They have no reason to, and overwhelmingly support govt policy.

Great job Sco Mo and the experts he listended to.

Paul you are incredible. Incredibly stupid or incredibly deceptive.

You are suggesting it is perfectly OK to lock up the whole population, & send hundreds of thousands into poverty, but not OK to lock up those infected with a nasty disease.

Obviously only a ratbag green/socialist/communist could think that way.

Your personal attack on individual is a disgrace.
ttbn,
I'd missed that one. Thanks for pointing it out that he's been at his standard insipid !
He's perpetually showing what we're perpetually focussing our efforts on, trying to get people to see sense, alas !
I always wonder when I hear of an expert witness commenting on something they've only read about, though never experienced.
I really think it's time that we introduced some new descriptions which clearly differentiate between someone who has in-depth knowledge in a particular field that is beneficial to society & someone who has merely had saturation theoretical education but no other exposure outside a class room & on some frivolous subject !
The TV series Air Crash investigation highlights such scenario in just about every episode.
Education without comprehension of common sense & logic is more dangerous to society
particularly when it revolves around things society by Social engineers ! People who never had to make do with hardly any money available to them are being judged by people on insane salaries ? Is it any wonder we hear of so much misery ? What these educated experts need to learn is that there needs to be a balance not just some academic technicality ! It's called common sense !

Not over the virus. Over the unemployment and the mess that the government's overreaction to the virus will have caused. With only 98 or whatever dead - most of those ready to die anyway - people will soon forget being 'saved' from something most of them were never going to catch, and the harsh reality of of the economic situation hits them.

apparently, govt overestimated jobkeeper spending by $60 billion.

big test for govt will be revitalising economy and keeping virus numbers down.

If he pulls that off, and stands up to China, he will be rightfully re-elected.

If he pulls that off, and stands up to China, he will be rightfully re-elected.
Chris Lewis,
Yes, but how many so-called Australians will offer the support needed instead of trying to make him fail at all cost to get Labor in again ?

Not sure, but they could not stop the Morrison govt winning last time.

Yes, there are some/many people that will never concede that Libs may be doing a good job

I stopped being ideological as a Labor voter in early 1990s when listening to the Parliament when working in a factory.

Could not stand listening to the ego manic that was Keating, and deplored the way the left cheered him on. they feted him as some kind of genius, whereas i thought he was rude and overrated. The fact he turned against the GST also pi..ed me of, given his previous stance.

I knew then that Howard had to become leader again because he was only Liberal then that gave it back to Keating with intellect, and much more.

And then along comes Latham , with his 1998 book, absolute rubbish as far as i was concerned. Dumbfounded he became leader.

Too many chiefs not enough indians

In America, the 'expert' Dr. Fauci is backing President Trump. Fauci says, "We can't stay locked down for such a considerable time that you might do irreparable damage and have unintended consequences, including consequences for health".

His English is not too good, but his advice is sound.

Of course the Democrat lunatics don't agree because he is not their 'expert'.

Academics usually specialize in one particular field, if the comment or give advise on anything outside that field the comment or advise is most likely worse than anything I would have to say.

//Too many chiefs not enough indians//

Seems like we've got plenty to me, AC. I'm guessing you haven't been to a 7-Eleven for a while.

We can always patronize businesses that employ our people. It seems that in addition to 7/11's petrol station attendants are also over represented by Indians- also Taxi Drivers- Information Technology. They form an industry "beach head" and invade. But the Equal Opportunity Commission does assist them perhaps as well as state based diversity policies and the UN.

Interestingly there seems to be a lot of grey and black money floating around India, China, and the Islamic world apparently looking for laundering opportunities. It seems that some in the Western world will overlook it on occasion- and facilitate international money laundering. In certain countries tax is sort of optional- little wonder that when these nationals come to Australia the law doesn't apply to them- and if it does it's because Australian's are racist. Maybe we are racist in a sense- but foreign born nationals still need to obey the law. It seems that the regular police aren't allowed to investigate based on ethnic attributes for fear of the diversity police- what does this mean for our Westminster System separation of powers based structure. Fascinating ... the distortions caused by social engineering by the Labor and Liberal major political parties.

Some of this black and grey money is used in the purchase of businesses, real estate and other assets. Perhaps even the foreign governments turn a blind eye to these activities as a form of national power projection.

Distortions in markets play out in disturbing and unexpected ways mostly detrimental to Australians interest by opportunists.

Australian's need to vote for non-aligned parties and individuals that are
"anti-open borders".

The major parties are very good at adjusting their message to what the electorate wants- they cannot be trusted. After the election they will do as they please. You can already see them changing their message after Corona.

CM,

"We can always patronize businesses that employ our people. "

"Our people" ? There are 25 million Australians: who do you mean ? So, you would prohibit people from some ethnic groups from operating businesses, such as service stations and shops ? Perhaps from other rights as well ? Perhaps barred from certain sorts of jobs ? Perhaps denied the right to vote ? To inter-marry ? Perhaps they should all be put on short-term residence contracts and be required to live in camps ?

Sometimes I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contained. The world is so full of turds.

Joe

Loudmouth said- The world is so full of turds.

Answer- Thanks for your feedback Joe Loudmouth.

Joe, whenever has there ever been a regime in the world that has discriminated against a minority in the way you describe? Just name one!

CM what this pussy footing, beating around the bush nonsense; "Australian's need to vote for non-aligned parties and individuals that are "anti-open borders".

Now say what you mean, vote for the far right racists lunatics of One Nation. Don't be bashful call it, that's who you support.

I have recently had the house painted inside. The one I sold. I advertised on the net. I was hit with Indians, Pakistani & various other Middle Eastern Painters. (I don't think so) Every one of them demanded "Cash" I'll do it for you cheap price. (It wasn't) They all turn up dressed for the part.

In the new house I had to get some trees & the stumps removed. Same thing. (Cash only, cheap price)

They ring you a few days later, strangely when you tell them you've gone with someone else the price comes down remarkably, Ay.

I went with an Australians, got an Invoice & paid through the Bank with all the proper credentials.

Was I racist not to hire the others?

Jayb,

Yes, you are a racist. Happy now?

I believe that people that are attracted to the opposite sex perhaps are homophobic- so I guess I'm homophobic- or influenced and complicit by a homophobic society- marriage is a prejudiced institution because you favour one over another.

"Buy Australian" is also a racist propaganda campaign- but I support it so I guess I'm racist too. I must be a really bad person.

Speaking of turds I wonder if Loudmouth has heard of Terf's- Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists.

Men that dress as females want to be able to use the female toilets and participate in female sporting events because they identify as females. If I see men as men I must be a misogynist- according to gender blindness. I agree that females should be able to have segregated toilets and sport if they want it.

Just to make it clear the following is irony- I must be a really bad person and I should be publicly shamed and stoned by the community until I am a bloody stain on the concrete and serving as a reminder to others. Perhaps we could have a quota- kill one in a thousand people as a deterrent. If we keep people in fear they will not dare to stand up for themselves. Perhaps we should fragment western society past the stone age.

#MeToo- men are rape culture complicit- all men are rapists- an offensive assertion. Perhaps feminists are also complicit in aculture of rape. I'd hope that normal women would be smart enough to see through this blatant self serving feminists- that probably never wanted a family anyway- in favour of the interest of their immediate families rather than fake female solidarity.

Is Loudmouth a misandrist?

To favour your own children over other children is also prejudiced because resources should be shared according to need according to some.

If politicians bring immigrants into Australia against a mandate or against their interest then claim that Australian's are racist- because it suits their self interest- rather than the electorates- I would call that out as wrong.

Many people are standing up against their immediate interest because they genuinely believe that society is following the wrong path- they are often doxed and black listed by the Locke Liberals and find it difficult to find work.

I find these people very brave- I hope you find courage Loudmouth to say things against the prevailing thought but in the best interest of society.

Since when is philosophical disagreement a crime.

Stalin paraphrased... "Why should we let people think. Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let people have guns."

James Burnham rejected communist tactics. It's strange that we are still fighting the communists.

//They form an industry "beach head" and invade.//

I don't think people peacefully entering your country and through proper legal channels and then selling you petrol and slurpees really counts as an invasion. Unless you're using a definition of 'invasion' so loose it loses all meaning.

//marriage is a prejudiced institution because you favour one over another.//

Pretty sure you'll be safe from ever having to be worried about the prospect of marriage.

//they are often doxed and black listed by the Locke Liberals and find it difficult to find work.//

Have you considered an alternate possibility, that they're just not very employable because they're extremely stupid?

//Since when is philosophical disagreement a crime.//

Since never. Why is it that a certain breed of idiot feels the need to cry 'Help! Help! I'm being repressed!' like Dennis the Constitutional Peasant every time someone points out that they're talking shite? Whiney little snowflakes.

//Stalin paraphrased... "Why should we let people think. Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let people have guns."//

But we live in the free world, where people have a right to think and a responsibility to try not to be a complete pillock, and sadly often choose to abrogate both.

Toni- Thanks for calling me a "complete pillock". You know how I always appreciate your opinion.

//Toni- Thanks for calling me a "complete pillock".//

No worries. Thanks for calling all heterosexuals homophobic and everybody who doesn't agree with your mental views a communist. I can't go out to comedy gigs during the lockdown, but your rants are nearly as funny.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pillock

[C14: from Scandinavian dialect pillicock penis]

Saw the former NSW Fire Commissioner on the ABC's DUM this evening saying that politicians should take more notice of the experts re the increasing fire storms.
What he didn't say is that they should listen to the Aborigines who actually know how to manage bush fires.
He also didn't say that the fires increased in severity since the experts told & forced people not to back burn & prevented such burning in the past several decades which of course resulted in unprecedented fuel build-up.
Yep, experts !