With calls from conservative politicians to put the capitalist economy into some kind "induced coma", they call it hibernation, while we ride out this pandemic for who knows how long. Trillions are being spent world wide to keep capitalism alive, if only on life support. Capitalism in the past has narrowly survived Great Depressions and World Wars, but can it survive this catastrophe?

With the passing of the pandemic, are the ordinary people of the developed world willing to return to the old ways of doing things, while waiting for the capitalists economy to right itself in some indeterminate number of years. Are politicians like Morrison and Frydenberg, along with all of the other like minded leaders throughout the western world, who are giving a dame fine impersonation of Socialist, some would say even Communists, at the moment just kidding themselves to think at the end of all this the people are going to meekly accept a return to what failed them in a time of cries, Capitalism.

"Macquarie Group managing director and the group head of Asia Pacific, Viktor Shvets, has been warning clients that conventional capitalism is dead and that it will be replaced by some form of communism."

"According to Mr Shvets, there are only three possible outcomes. One is that central banks win; that an economic recovery allows them to withdraw their stimulus without collapsing asset prices like stocks and housing. Not much chance of that, he reckons."

"The second is that governments take over, pick up the slack in jobs and cooperate with each other to solve global poverty and inequality. Slim chance."

"The third is war. This, he argues, is the most likely and the least pleasant outcome."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-06/is-capitalism-dying-or-just-in-isolation-coronavirus/12123874

Hi Paul,

There is one disease that has no cure - greed,
ensuring capitalism will survive

Foxy,

You beat me to the punch(line)!

But there is a bit more to it than just human nature. One needs to take into account sociohistorical structures of practice e.g. Christianity etc.

I won't say any more than that because I run the risk of upsetting The Forum's Old Farts Club members for being a Mr Smarty Pants and bringing up all of those Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc., that they don't know anything about.

Capitalism is so loosely defined that the question is unanswerable in any meaningful way.
But I will point out that Shvets missed an obvious possibility: governments could decide to play a bigger role in their own economies, but neither greatly expanding international cooperation nor resorting to war.

Aidan, you said

"Capitalism is so loosely defined."

Since when?

I suspect at some stage in the not so distance future that with the collapse of most of the first world economies that another anti Christ anti people world Government will sieze power. The same dishonest overpopulation, killing the unborn, man made gw dishonesty will be part of their platform. It will be even more corrupt if possible than than UN and EU and will promise much but deliver misery and death. More than likely it will include China. Certainly socialism has produced the most greedy, most dishonest and biggest virtue signallers the world has seen. You can be sure that in the near future overpaid public servants, university professors and corporate elites will protect each others while many honest workers will go under. Thank God for anyone with any discernment can read the end of the book. Yep every anti Christ organisation will not survive but instead every knee will bow to the only name by which man can be saved. Keep your eyen on Israel is a good tip.

Paul1405,
What you refer to as Capitalism is actually the Economy they're now trying to save. Capitalism is simply taking a massive hit, hopefully knocking greed on the head ! Haven't heard any senior Public Servants calling for a tightening of their belts though as yet so, greed is still at the forefront !
Imagine just for a moment what the situation would be right now if we had socialism ?

Capitalism with its infinite growth fallacy contains within it the seeds of its own destruction.
Reap what you sow.

Both China & Russia have only saved themselves by switching to a capitalist economy, while maintaining a pretense of socialism which is really dictatorship.

Any one silly enough to help promote socialism is consigning their kids to serfdom in a dictatorship.

mikk,

I see you have been brushing up on your Das Kapital.

No capitalism will persist, as will the determination of each county to find an appropriate balance between the market economy and government intervention.

nothing really changes for liberal democracies beyond the juggling act of these equally important dimensions to our society.

Long live liberal democracy.

Churchill once "said Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others" I think that could be said equally about Capitalism. Nothing is ever perfect and I know that of all the socialist countries of the world, there is not one where I would prefer to live.

No capitalism will persist,
Chris Lewis,
Yes, because nothing else works. Capitalism could be ten times better though were it not for the hangers-on of the Elite circles whose only expertise is talk !

Yes, i agree with u Individual.

Australia's liberal democracy still has much potential, and i wish the elites would help promote ideas of the sacrifices we all may need to make to maximise our potential.

We can share the burden and remain a great society.

Hello Foxy, had a good holiday from all this I hope ?

Small scale capitalism will easily restart. Someone who previously had
a small business in a shopping centre will notice a shop for lease in
a reasonable location and he has stock packed up in his garage that could
be sold at a good price. The lease is a lot less than he previously paid
and the landlord is desperate to get a tenant.
Turns out the public has a backlog in required purchases.
It won't take much effort to get restarted.

Hi Bazz,

Thank You for asking.
The break made me re-evaluate things.
It's good to be back especially during these difficult
times.

Take care and stay safe.

runner,
>... another anti Christ anti people world Government will sieze power.

You think it's happened before?
Please elaborate!

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Mr 0,
>Since when?

Good question. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it was right from the start, since Adam Smith didn't actually use the term "capitalism" and in the early days the people who did use it meant what they wanted it to mean.

While the majority of our society remains compassionate for the weak and vulnerable, and has many operations on volunteer organisations it will be difficult for hard nosed Communism to take a hold. The Communist Party hold of the Chinese has to be broken, as it is ruthless and cruel.

Aidan,

I think you have missed my point.

As for capitalism, it is the engine that provides the money to distribute. It is the non capitalist states that are suffering the most.

As for Ian Verrender of the ABC, well what can we expect from the economically incompetent. Every time there is a crisis these shills squeak up that capitalism is on the ropes. Every time they are wrong.

I'm still waiting for the anti-capitalists to announce for their salaries to be reduced for more equality in this time of crisis !

Individual, u may be waiting a long time for any academic to do that, although there may be some.

it is a bit like the many who bag private schools, but send their kids there.

i rarely hear of anyone giving up their wages, albeit my CEO and other senior staff are taking a 50% pay cut at moment

Mr 0,
I've answered your question. If you think I've missed your point then feel free to explain it, but I think it's far more likely that you've missed my point.

my CEO and other senior staff are taking a 50% pay cut at moment
Chris Lewis,
It's good to see there's still some integrity out there, they're obviously good managers !
My appreciation to those people !

Individual,

the company i work for is good.

rather than sack the many of us employed around Australia in sport and rec, they gave us cleaning jobs to match our contracted hours.

i am grateful and would rather work, even though our pay will be quite low without our usual weekend penalty rates.

Wouldn't it be great if all penalty rates were one of the things killed by this virus. They did make sense in my youth when our world was a 40 hour week for most. Today our world is a 24/7 world, & no hour should be worth more than any other.

no hasbeen, it would not.

people should and are paid more for working unusual hours.

why are you so angry about what ordinary people get.

angry about what ordinary people get.
Chris Lewis,
I suppose it depends on the definition of ordinary people ! I know extraordinary people who's contributions are never acknowledged & I know ordinary people who get praised as extraordinary for achieving less than ordinary people !
Many high ranking Public Service bureaucrats aren't worthy of a smidgeon of their salaries yet that seems to go unquestioned.
They start off as Tadpoles & end up as bloated Toads just hanging off the taxpayers' apron !

Not the least bit angry about what "ordinary" people get. I would be quite happy to combine penalty rates & ordinary rates, split the difference, & give everyone a higher hourly rate, but equal every day. I have always tried to pay people what they were worth, often considerably more that the award rate. I have always felt that if you want really good people you need to reward them as really good people.

I ran business in the tourist industry. In the Whitsundays for example, you often don't know what day it is, they are all the same. I always felt it was wrong that food service casuals working only weekends were paid about as much as the permanents got for a full 5 days.

In the marine area it was even worse. With the 11 hour days required because of the nature of the work, weekenders with crazy penalty rates earned more than the regulars for a full 5 days. I moved the regulars to include weekends, as they had responsibility for maintenance & the running of the boats, & deserved to be the best paid.

In my opinion in any 24/7 industry all working hours should be equally rewarded.

Don't want to work after hours ? Let someone else do it ! You'd welcome to work after hours for double pay if you can be twice as effective in performance !

ummm, majority of Aust's support penalty rates. part of Australian democracy.

i expect penalty rates will be around for a long time yet.

and while they are, many will take advantage of them.

i know u guys are super brilliant, much superior to us arts graduates, abc journos, and left wing lunatics, but how about some analysis that proves that penalty rates do not or should not exist in all successful economies?

Come on, give us an OLO piece since we are so useless. i look forward to it.

i am actually open on question, so convince me please OLO conservative know all elites.

i note that China pays overtime rates, albeit only for excess hours.

https://www.attorneyhelp.org/guide/how-do-other-countries-stack-up-when-it-comes-to-paying-overtime-wages-198.shtml

majority of Aust's support penalty rates. part of Australian democracy.
Chris Lewis,
You'll find that that majority would not be so eager to support penalty rates if they had to pay double for a meal & drink after hours or at the 24 hr shops.
Overtime should only be paid if there's no-one else to finish a job. Deliberately choosing to only work after hours should not attract extra pay. Extra work=extra pay ! Same work=same pay !
Same performance=same pay ! Increased performance=extra pay !
After all, isn't that equality ?
Haven't people learnt yet that the boss can't pay more than what the employees get for him in return ?

individual, i do agree that penalty rates are too high.

working in sport and rec,albeit shutdown at moment, we get paid 250% for working on public holidays and 200% for sundays. reality is very few people come in on those days.

i have always thought that 150% should be the maximum rate.

having said that, we can only take advantage of what exists. the ten hours i do on the weekends at higher rates is the very reason why i took the job

Where to from here? Conservative politicians around the World have abandoned their free market principles in favour of socialism, some would say even totalitarian communism. The Morrison government poured billions out to supposedly hibernate capitalistic business, and protect displaced workers for up to six months, all well and good. That support runs out in a very short time, before the end of the year in fact.

Now we're in the economic lifeboat, we have six months of supplies, but no oars, no map and no compass. Landfall and safety in the form of a vaccine is a year, maybe two, maybe never, away. What should we plan to do for the future, besides stay home, sleep and bang on our computers, hibernate. Leave things as they are and most likely we'll wake up to a massive headache and a World wide depression! Will that be the time to abandon failed capitalism and embrace communism for the good of the majority, or the minority that has serviced. Would the Chinese model be appealing? By then welding doors shut might be more appealing than starvation.

Hey Paul, have you chosen the sights for the gulags & death camps to go.

You can't have communism with out those, as history tells us in no uncertain manner.

Paul1405,

What should we do if the vaccine is years away? Self-Hibernation of course. Yes, you heard correctly: self-hibernation. Please don't ask me what I mean by that because I just don't know, just like Soot 'Beam up me Scotty' Morrison doesn't know what he means by hibernation.

Hassy greetings from Comrade Scumoski,

Why ask me, ask the Commissar, you can't miss him in his Cronulla outfit glued to the telly waiting for May 28th 20??.

News from the Soviet Republic of New South Wales.

DONSKI IS GONE! Much sadnest in hearts of NSW Soviet people.

Local Party Secretary Comrade Bignoseski had sent Comrade Donski for political re-education. Comrade Donski failed to understand simple party directive from Politburo. Comrade Donski under questioning admitted the errors of his ways and how he collaborated with Yankee imperialist! Unfortunately while being questioned by peace loving members of Soviet Police, Comrade Donski unfortunately contracted Imperialist Virus, and die in 30 second, despite heroic efforts by glories comrades to save his life. All members of Politburo very sadden on hearing this terrible news. Comrade Donski was loyal and devoted party member, comrade Donski will be given full state funeral, after laying in state for 3 days. All members of Politburo will be pallbearers for Comrade Donski, Commissar Scumoski will deliver glowing eulogy for Comrade Donski

With business demanding, and getting, billions of taxpayer dollars in handouts to keep it (possibly) viable, what should the taxpayer expect, and receive in return. If as some suspect Capitalism is withering on the vine, never to recover, and with growing concern about Australia's self-sufficiency, is it not time to consider NATIONALISATION under government ownership of key industries, transport, aviation, communications, health, education and some sections of manufacturing.

Australia has in recent times experienced what unfettered bailing out of Capitalism achieves, absolutely nothing. The taxpayer poured billions into propping up the Yankee car industry here, only to see the Capitalists give 15 minutes notice, and walk away with pockets stuffed with Australian dollars.

Such a seismic shift in the way Australia operates would require substantive change to the Australian political landscape, and frankly those in power now would be unable, or unwilling, to embrace such monumental changes. Unfortunately today's leadership would need to be put out with the rest of the garbage. Agree?

Paul1405,

I totally concur with your line of questioning.

The Wuhan pandemic is a real game changer that must lead towards a restructuring of the values and ideologies that have been driving the world down the path of mass consumerism over the past 30 years.

This pandemic is what we call one of the great turning points in history. What will our world look like post-Wuhan virus? One can only ponder over the next 12-18 months waiting around for a vaccine (if we're lucky).

Totally agree Mr O, take the two airlines operating within Australia, on major routes, QANTAS and Virgin. Many would say a two airline duopoly is preferable to a one airline monopoly, at least the duopoly gives some semblance of competition and better service to consumers. Now with the pandemic, both airlines are haemorrhaging large amounts of unsustainable cash, and Virgin is the weaker of the two and the one most likely to go belly up, if its not bailed out in some way. Virgin is owned by a conglomerate of foreign national airlines, some government owned. If this conglomerate of foreign owners are unwilling to bail their baby out, what should Australia do?

1. Do nothing.
2. Bail them out with no strings attached.
3. Bail them out with strings attached.
5. Go into partnership with the conglomerate.
6. Buy the conglomerate out, nationalisation with compensation.
7. Nationalise without compensation.
8. Something else?

Lots of choices, what do you think?

Hey Paul 1405,
I say:

1. Do nothing, let them go bust.

Do the public get a share of the profits when things are good?
How many cheques have you received in the mail?
Then why should we pay when CEO's paid far beyond what a regular person is paid mismanage their own companies?

Let them go bust.
Give them nothing.

I say no precedent for bailing out highly paid and incompetent CEO's
You do it for one, and they all think it's an insurance policy, but they never paid for coverage.

Let a new carrier who is looking to expand take their place.
Let the workers move companies.
The government will still get its tax, but the people won't have to pay for rich CEO's shortsighted business decisions.

Try something new.
Fly TigerAir.

Bring back TAA & ANSETT !

individual,

And better still, let's bring back the Wright brothers!

Mr 0,
It turns out the Wright Brothers weren't even first. There was a documentary about it on ABC last month, but it doesn't seem to be on iView any more.

An E-mail I received a few days back;

Dear Paul,

Did you know that one of the biggest private hospital corporations in Queensland, Ramsay Health, made over $1 billion in profit last year?

And that part of these profits come from public money?

Queensland private hospitals receive billions of dollars in public money every year. Right now the Federal government is spending $1.3 billion propping them up after they threatened to shut their own hospitals and fire nurses and doctors in the middle of one of the worst healthcare crises in our country's history.

I think it’s time we used public money for common good, not the profit margins of multinational private corporations. That’s why last Wednesday I called on the state government to nationalise all private Queensland hospitals.

The support I received was incredible. Hundreds of people signed the petition within the first few hours of it going up, and hundreds more shared our square on Facebook.

And we’ve already had a win. The following day the Queensland Government moved to purchase the private Gladstone Mater Hospital.

I think that it's one thing to say the Ramsay Health made a billion dollars;
But the more important question is can Queensland Health produce the same result?
- Or will they waste a billion in mismanagement?

- If government could run things as well as private companies, there wouldn't be a case to privatise -

Hey AC,

I can only comment on NSW Health, as my wife worked in the public sector for over 10 years before retiring. Conditions and treatment for patents was first class. Should we have the American health system? Where if you have private health insurance, and in need of a face-lift, you get first class treatment in a gold plated bed, with a team of personal doctors and nurses in a swanky private establishment, five star. If you are Joe Public with no insurance and dying from Covid-19, you get an Aspirin if you're lucky, in a third rate under staffed, under equipped no star public institution, then when you cark it they throw your corps into an unmarked mass grave. DON'T BE FOOLED!

Aidan,
Mr Opinion's too young to remember the two great airlines.

Aidan,

I think you will find that they were the first in achieving CONTROLLED FLIGHT, which nobody had been able to do before they came along.

Mr 0,
That documentary I saw found good evidence to the contrary.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Whitehead

Aidan,
I watched the documentary only a couple or so weeks ago on SBS. Rather interesting without all the indoctrinated waffle of the past.
As I have well & truly made clear over many posts, I'm utterly opposed to greed but I'm just as opposed to hangers-on maligning the companies that keep so many workers employed.
The hangers-on are the perfect hypocrites as none of them employ anyone & they offer nothing of value in return to the society that keeps them !
I'm so opposed for them to be so readily taken up in Public Service positions without any evidence of competence & proof of merit !
I just hope COVID-19 forces change to Public Service employment criteria for the better & exposes the need for a reduction in senior rank salaries !

Every time there is a world crisis there are the same fruit bats that come out to claim that capitalism is dying.

It has survived the last few millennia and is not looking particularly ill now.

Shadow,

What do you have to say about those total economic incompetence, the Liberal/National mob who are saddling Australia with a trillion dollar debt, and 20% unemployment. Your mob make anything Labor did in the past look like a Sunday school picnic. It will take years, even decades, to pay off this reckless Coalition spending. What is your excuse?

BTW ScumO' and Friedbrain look like a couple of Commo's at work, wrecking the economy as they are.

Paul,

You mean the total incompetents in the labor green coalition that saddled Aus with most of the debt.

Your mob make anything Labor did in the past look like a Sunday school picnic.
Paul1405,
Only because the GFC was like a Sunday School picnic in comparison to COVID-19 but also, the many years of Labor squandering has forced the situation we're experiencing now. It has nothing to do with the Coalition's handling of the economy now, it's all to do with Labor's handling of the economy in the past !

How the worms are turning! Shadow worm and Indy worm, just to name but two of the worms. BTW Shadow, the Coalition had doubled Labor's debt even before the coronavirus hit. When the GFC struck in 2008/10, and Labor spent a modest $42 billion to pump prime the economy, these worms along with the Coalition clowns who are now spending hundreds of billions trying to plug the massive holes in their economic lifeboat said then; "Wasteful, extravagance by Labor, let the free market right itself in due course!" According to several of the Forums conservatives, with only 60 odd dead, and a few thousand sick, and half of them having recovered, Australia had nothing to worry about, it was all a false alarm. According to them ScumO' and his mob shot their bolt for nothing! That's according to them.

Since the Forums 'Usual Suspects' measure government economic performance by the amount of government debt, and the level of unemployment, what do they say to a trillion dollars of debt, and 20% unemployed. That's what ScumO' and Friedbrain are gifting to future generations of Australians.

Anything to say?

Paul,

Given that the labor green coalition had just passed a swatch of unfunded legislation it was virtually impossible for the coalition to bring the budget back to surplus especially when the same labor green morons blocked the repeal of these lavish bills.

What are you babbling on about Shadow? Are you referring to the slight financial adjustment by the fiscally responsible Labor government of Kevin07 over 10 years ago during the GFC. Or are you referring to the financial incompetence of the headless chooks running the show at the moment.

Shadow, what has ScumO' and Friedbrain got you on Job-Keeper, Job-Seeker, oh! yes, that's it, the Job-No-More program. You must agree you have never seen such fiscal foolery as you are seeing from these clowns in office at the moment, a trillion in debt, and 20% unemployment, they can't even produce a budget, that's how bad they are

Shadow, according to your man Donald, this is nothing more than a bit of a sniffle, a rub down with the Vicks, a chew on a couple of Throaties, that will see you as right as rain in a day or two. Bug Ridden Boris took The Donald's advice and look at him now, fighting fit, they both don't have a care in the world.

Hi Paul,

I'm a bit confused: you slag Morrison for being tough in order to save lives, and you slag Trump (fair enough) for being sloppy in order to save profits.

Have you suddenly become a (horrors !) a centrist ?

I should wash my mouth out !

But welcome, anyway.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I would say, your attitude and opinions, and my attitude and opinions, regarding the response to the covid-19, both from a health and economic point of view are very much the same. In fairness to our politicians they were a bit slow of the mark, but they were flying blind. Once the polys understood the full heath implications they were quick to act. Of course some decisions have been questionable and uncoordinated, but what else can we expect, we are all in uncharted waters.

As for Trump, before this I held him in fairly low regard, but now what can I say, the evidence against him is overwhelming.

Hi Paul,

Agreed. I used to have a very low opinion of Trump, as a bully, moron, rat-bag, slime and liar. But I realise now that I held him in far too high a regard. He may end up being responsible for the break-up of the United States.

As for capitalism, it will pretty much always survive, there will always be opportunists and enterprisers who take advantage of every situation and make new forms of bucks: Rahm Emmanuel's maxim, that every crisis provides opportunities, really should be capitalism's slogan.

Joe

Hey Paul1405,

- Back onto the topic of Virgin:
What do you think about QLD's offer to help to the tune of 200m?

I don't know whether or not the money is well spent.
Didn't Virgin firstly ask for a loan, but then QLD gives them a 200m gift?

If Virgin was a good profitable looking venture going forward wouldn't they find investors rushing to jump onboard elsewhere?
And if the owners themselves aren't willing to inject more capital into it and are considering winding it up doesn't it show that they're pessimistic about Virgins profitability going forward re COVID-19?

I live in QLD and we seem to have an over reliance on tourist dollars.
Right now there's 2bn being spent on airport runways.

Queenslanders will benefit from reduced airfare pricing with 2 national carriers, but who stands to actually profit from Virgin staying operating?
That would be the airports themselves.

People have been asked to weather the storm and work together during COVID-19.
If Virgin goes bust (And TigerAir too as it's Virgin's the low budget subsidiary - I didn't know this previously)
- Then it's the airports themselves who will lose.
What sort of a deal are they offering to reduce costs to Virgin to ensure they pay their bills and keep the dollars flowing?
Otherwise they're going to have empty terminals and not make anything anyway.

The government wants to pay to make them stay, but how much concessions are the airports themselves willing to give to keep Virgin's business?

Where are all these tourists going to come from post pandemic?
I can't see people rushing to get back on those death cruises in a hurry?
I think post Covid the world is generally promoting a 'Don't go overseas - check out your own country first' attitude.
Finally, is it even responsible to be promoting tourism in a pandemic climate?
As I said, the QLD economy relies heavily on tourism.

Shadow Minister,

You posted above at p.9 that capitalism "has survived the last few millennia and is not looking particularly ill now."

Where did you get the idea that capitalism existed several thousands of years ago?

Virgin has only paid a dividend twice in the last 12 years, so it is not
a gold plated investment. Then just what state will the travel business
be in after this is all over ?
They may not have all those flights to meet cruise ships either.

No international tourism for a YEAR: Why it won't be safe to let anyone visit Australia until 'at least 2021'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229301/Why-wont-safe-let-international-tourists-visit-Australia-2021.html

Mr 0

There are plenty of records of free market trading going back millenia. When do you think capitalism started?

Paul,

I see your hero Xi Jinping has been caught out fibbing again.

Given that you are a factually inadequate troll and the entire greens establishment have the IQ of a turd, I will simply ignore your posts as the drivelling of a half wit.

Shadow, Uncle Xi sends his regards. Glad you have now caught up, I've been giving you the razz for years. I"ll dump on you later...cheers.

To those worth communicating with;

One of the most optimistic assertions of the whole economic crises we are now in, is the notion that miraculously with an end to the health crises, the economy will simply emerge from "hibernation" and simply "bounce back" to normality within a short space of time, the famous "V" curve, as opposed to the Ü" curve or some other horrid letter of the alphabet curve.

AC, I was not overly surprised that Palaszczuk tried to throw 'Virgin' a $200m bone, she did encourage the other states to throw in as well, the Feds could offer dollar for dollar, hence the magic $1.4 billion. Queensland is the tourist capital of Australia, and airlines are a vital part of that industry. Without two airlines, airfare are likely to rise 20%-30%, which as your article rightly points out, recovery in the tourism industry is going to be slow and painful. Bazz if you were thinking of buying shares in an airline, I don't think 'Virgin' would top the list of choices. BTW the wife and I have a 200% credit = $4k with P&O good till end 2021, might shout the grand kids a cruse later next year, hopefully.

Mr O, how Capitalism started;

One caveman said to the other caveman;
"YOU...GIVE..ME..DINOSAUR BONE..ME GIVE YOU..ROCK FOR BONE!
Second caveman; Nooooooo!

First caveman hit second caveman over the head with his club and took the bone. That's how both Capitalism and wars got started. Shadow knows all about it, he was hiding under a rock near by at the time, and seen the whole thing.

Shadow Minister,

Capitalism as I think most people would agree is a relatively modern concept, which first took roots in northwestern Europe in the wake of the Peace of Westphalia and is primarily coincident with the breakdown of the feudal system and the introduction of the Industrial Revolution.

Thinking that the origin of capitalism should be traced to the Early Bronze Age is the sort of idea that someone like an engineer or an architect or a lawyer or an accountant would come up with. I suppose you also think that globalisation has its origin in the Big Bang.

Hey Mr Opinion,

You should know I saw your first comment last night and I was going to let it go, which more or less goes against my stated obligation to call it out;
But then you had to go off on your tangent and double down on 'stupid'.
- And that just goes to show that I should not have been lazy, I should've char-grilled your ass for practicing 'stupid' in the first place before your insane leaps of logic snowballed.

I was only just discussing this a day or so back:

"The only war I care about IS 'The War On Stupid'
What other war is there, does it not all fall under this category?
That means if you observe something stupid you're more or less obligated to speak out and tell everyone it's stupid.
Bad things happen when good people do nothing.
This, therefore - is a non-violent form of correction.
* Don't doubt yourself, tell them its STUPID
- And if they disagree, then tell them that THEY are STUPID."
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=20849#367694

What this means is that now you're really going to get it.

[Cont.]
What the hell is wrong with you?
Are you mentally challenged, were you dropped on your head at birth?
Can you tell us you suffer from Downe Syndrome, or some other legitimate reasons for your spastic mental functionality?

"Capitalism as I think most people would agree is a relatively modern concept, which first took roots in northwestern Europe in the wake of the Peace of Westphalia"

WTF do you think 'coinage' is?

You got the location right but the date wrong by about 2000 years.
(And I'd be willing to bet even this is incorrect)

"The Lydian Lion is widely considered the oldest coin in the world. These coins predate ancient Greek coinage and were created in the ancient Kingdom of Lydia, which was located in modern-day western Turkey. While the dates of these coins are debated – with some dates going as far back as 700 BCE – it is most commonly believed that they emerged under the reign of King Alyattes, who ruled Lydia c. 610 – 550 BCE.

To back up the claim that coinage was invented by the Lydians, people often cite writings from Herodotus, a Greek historian. He said the Lydians were the first people to use silver and gold coins and the first to establish retail shops in permanent locations."
http://www.oldest.org/culture/coins/

So you say it started in 1648, but then I show coinage from no later that 550BCE i.e. 2000+ years.

Do we use a standard such as 'coinage', or do we look for the first 'traders' to show capitalism's existence?
Who was the first person to trade an apple for a fish?
Is that or is that not capitalism?

OMG you're truly advertising yourself as the dumbest person alive.
You really need to use your brain before you start typing

Armchair Critic,

It is easy to see that you like Shadow Minister etc do not know anything about the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc.

Lydian coins were not stamped because they were part of a system of photo-capitalism. Admittedly they could be used in early commerce but their true importance was in propaganda, letting the people know who was their king or ruler. It was more about politics than about economics.

Actually, I just realised where you and Shadow Minister have gone astray in your thinking. I think you are confusing the term 'capitalism' with 'commerce'.

Are you an engineer too or some other vocationally trained type?

"Capitalism as I think most people would agree is a relatively modern concept, which first took roots in northwestern Europe in the wake of the Peace of Westphalia and is primarily coincident with the breakdown of the feudal system and the introduction of the Industrial Revolution."

"Lydian coins were not stamped because they were part of a system of photo-capitalism."

So they weren't, but they were.
You really don't know whether you're Arthur or Martha...
- Think before you type

"I think you are confusing the term 'capitalism' with 'commerce'."
- Please explain.

Armchair Critic,

I think we're talking on different levels. You don't know the things I know about and conversely I don't know the things you know about.

As such I don't think we can discuss matters that require an acceptable knowledge of the Arts things like history, anthropology, sociology, archaeology, philosophy, etc.

I am still curious as to your background. Obviously it's not in Arts things like history, anthropology, sociology, archaeology, philosophy, etc. I'm guessing you're an engineer like Shadow Minister.

AC,

O course, there has been trade between groups and individuals for many thousands of years, ever since the initiation of agriculture and the exchange of farming products for wild meat (bush-meat) and other items that neighbouring hunter-gatherer groups would have collected - as they still do around the world.

I'm not suggesting that all trade is, by definition, capitalism - as Marx wrote in detail, IF someone holds back the proceeds of a trade exchange, and instead of consuming them, plows them back into more sellable or tradeable products, and so on: in other words, if money, M, becomes capital, C, to be used to make a profit on a trade exchange, and which (at least a proportion of it) is plowed back in turn with another round of purchase of goods specifically to sell: M - C - M - C, and so on.

This has been going on for many thousands of years, not necessarily with coinage as the medium of exchange but cowrie shells, necklaces, lumps of obsidian, precious stones, even cattle and women.

Certainly, some enterprising Timores or Macassan seafaring traders may have been trading with Aboriginal people here, trading artifacts for sandalwood and trepang and maybe pearl-shell for much longer than a few hundred years. From an Aboriginal point of view, the goods they received would have broadened their consumption base, but most likely the purpose for the Timorese etc. would have been to sell the goods on to other traders on the trade routes west and north, eventually to markets around the Mediterranean (sandalwood) and China (trepang).

It's tantalising to think that incense being burnt in Rome during Julius Caesar's time could have come from Australia, through a multiple chain of proto-capitalist traders :)

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

Bravo! That covers the overview on exchange. How about an explanation on the nature of capitalism versus commerce per se? You started to expound on this but cut yourself short.

PS I really do think you would have made a great Arts graduate. But, alas, it's such a shame that you couldn't get into a Arts program.

Misopinionated,

If you ever finish your TAFE introductory certificate, and go on to uni, you might benefit from reading any of the wonderful works of Philip D. Curtin, on the history and geography of trade. For example,

http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=R4IiYFhliv4C&oi=fnd&pg=PR8&dq=Philip+curtin&ots=mpqDl01Rgr&sig=mGNrL6Nq33pM2TYbsgX__YZPdzY#v=onepage&q=Philip%20curtin&f=false

Fantastic writer ! Died a few years ago.

You might learn something for a change :)

Joe

Mr 0,

It would appear that your ability to think has withered to 0.

Capitalism is the free exchange of goods, services, and information. Capitalism contemplates the exchange of value for value; in the modern world, the value given is usually money, but it can be other things— goods, services, information, etc, as the parties decide. In economic terms, each party exchanges to receive something they value more highly than what they have. By means of the exchange, each party increases their wealth— possession of things of value. The free exchange creates incentives to produce, and thus the whole community becomes richer and better off. Capitalism arose when the first two people traded something. Capitalism is still rooted in the free exchange of value for value.

Even in the time of the early Romans there were traders and merchants 1000 yrs BC.

Another epic fail Mr zero.

Shadow Minister,

Thank you. It is always good the get an engineer's perspective on subjects in which they have no scholarly training and qualifications.

Maybe one day you will enlighten us knowledge-starved participants of the The Forum on such amazing engineering topics as the electric motor, sludge sedimentation pumps, and stormwater run-off.

The ideals of communism with its "all in" philosophy of everyone working for the common good, with all that is being collectively produced rationed according to individual needs, not wants or desires, with no private property, and everything being "borrowed" by the individual from the collective as a whole. Under communism there is no need for money as a means of exchange, as there is no private property, only public property or collective property, which is all that is exchanged through need. Although socialism adopts some of the aspects of communism, particularly public ownership and welfare support, but it still allows for private personal ownership and the use of capital as a means of exchange.

Capitalism like communism is both a fantasy and an ideal, since there has never been a society that has ever legalised or practised a totally capitalistic free market. Ideals are hard, or even impossible to implement in practice, that's why they are called ideals. On the other hand, proponents of both communism and capitalism brought about numerous positive social changes, while being unattainable, both ideals have worked for the common good. This is demonstrated by Australia's mixed market economy, with its capitalistic drive being tempered with a socialistic support network through government intervention.

Of course Paul, communism appeals to greens, with their desire to reduce population.

After all communists in the USSR & China actively eliminated millions of their own population in death camps, gulags & forced labour camps for dissidents. But even better they both starved tens of millions with their collective farms, which produced almost nothing. It was only when they gave the peasants back the self improvement motive of personal reward for personal effort they started to be able to feed themselves.

Gosh, Paul, I wonder if anybody has ever tried communism ? It sounds so gooooood!

Oh that's right, the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Mongolia, North Korea, Rumania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Albania, Poland, Cuba, East Germany, Angola, Mozambique, Togo, Burkina Faso, the Republic of Congo (Brazzaville), Venezuela, Ethiopia, perhaps Tanzania and Chile. More than two billion people have experienced its infinite benefits. With so much experience, how is communism going in any of those Paradises ? Everybody works and shares ? It must be like heaven there.

I recall the news item that Solzhenitsyn quoted in the Intro to his 'Gulag Archipelago' about local people finding the frozen remains of a prehistoric beast whose meat was so fresh that they could tear off pieces of it with their bare hands and eat it raw. They must have been so happy and contented under communism.

Thanks for reminding us.

Joe

Mr 0,

You always surprise me with how feeble your critical thinking is. Greece and Rome about 350 BC were prime examples of capitalist states where the vast majority of the means of production were in private hands and individuals took risks and invested.

You are either a very poor historian, and the only sludge pump you are involved in is the daily muck that oozes from you onto OLO.

Paul,

To some extent I agree with you, however, socialism is the state ownership of the means of production and is not necessarily welfare. Similarly, capitalism relies on Labour which without health care and education are worthless.

Hi SM,

It's interesting that in Imperial Germany, Bismarck introduced age-pensions, unemployment benefits (and I think widows' pensions too), etc., back in the 1880s or so. I don't recall Marx extolling Bismarck as some sort of socialist, rather as a Junker-capitalist who, if anything, Marx feared for his welfare-oriented policies.

Welfare and social relief are not necessarily the exclusive initiatives of Red Communists. Nor, on reflection, are fascist repressions the exclusive province of the Rabid Right. I'm more and more drawn to Hayek's Triangle of Socialism, Fascism and Democracy and their various associations.

And did Bismarck's innovations impede capitalist development in Germany ? I think not. Nor did Ford's setting-up of machine industries in Stalin's Russia of the twenties necessarily impede Stalin's version of socialism. Well, of course, nor was Stalin's version of socialism necessarily socialism, no matter how many Gulags he had set up or how many millions he had 'subtracted'.

I was named after Stalin, but if I had lived in the Soviet Union any time between 1917 and 1989, I don't think I would have survived the twenties. If I had lived that long.

Joe

Loudmouth,

You just said: "I was named after Stalin, but if I had lived in the Soviet Union any time between 1917 and 1989, I don't think I would have survived the twenties. If I had lived that long."

Talk about a pessimist.

And while you're at it can you please tell Shadow Minister to stick t being an engineer and leave the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc., to the Arts graduates.

Why oh why are we plagued by twits that are refugees from twitterland ?

Joe you do disappoint me, with some backhanded reference that I would be in agreement with, or supportive of, the barbarity of non-communist states such as USSR, China, Cuba and the rest of your list which is not worth mentioning. The only state that is worthy of the title communist is Heaven, and they are doing so well, that nobody bothers to pop out to tell us mere mortals exactly, how well! I suppose if you want to pin some kind of tag on me, I would think maybe 'democratic socialist' will do, it sounds good if nothing else. I'm very much in agreement with the Australian model, a bit of tinkering around the edges might be in order from time to time, such as turf one mob out in favour of the other mob, just changing the jockey, same horse.

Being someone who is knowledgeable on this, you Joe of all forumites should understand given our position of comfort, it is easy to point the finger of scorn towards those less fortunate. With the history of Russia, China, etc its no wounder they are what they are, or have been. The Tsarists regime gave Russia Bolshevism, then Hitler and the death of Stalin gave the Soviet Union it attempt at post war modernism. Its history that leads to failed societies not ideology.

Sorry, Paul, either I don't properly understand what you are getting at, or I'm not in favour of speculation about Utopias. Or more likely both.

Capitalism is a rapacious system, but it's always also innovative, opportunist, on the look-out for anything, new or old, to turn a buck. A good capitalist will sell his grandmother's skin for its tattoos (and the rest of her for dog-food) and also put money into, say, a cure for Covid-19, whatever makes money which can be turned into capital which can be invested (i.e. M - C - M - C - M - C). It is forever inventive, and forever parasitic.

Hey, in a sense, it's a bit like a virus :). Whether there can ever be a vaccine for it, I don't know. But socialism wasn't it, given that it degenerated everywhere into a de facto form of fascism and patron-clientage.

Joe

Joe, I'll agree runaway capitalism is a rapacious system by nature, it fosters greed in the individual and in society in general, we are all to some degree capitalists. Is it not possible to apply a handbrake to the excesses of capital? A rhetorical question, as Australia for one has done that successfully.

Paul,

Runaway socialism is even more rapacious. Those at the top look after themselves very well and bugger those at the bottom which is why socialism fails again and again.

Capitalism is the engine that drives the world while socialism is at best the brakes.

Mr 0,

Given that you so desperately suck at history, no one in their right mind would accord you any deference or respect in this field.

Hi Joe,

I must quote the old man here, as I've said in the past he was a Langite, (supporter and friend of Jack Lang), he never refereed to the Soviet Union as Communist, but rather as Bolshevik, what he seen as a twisted and corrupt form of socialism. The list of countries you put up previously, the common denominator seems to be they were all, failed basket cases to begin with.

Pure communism, presents as a Utopian state. Of course it does, as I said its nothing more than a unreachable fanciful ideal. Imagine if China tried to turn itself into a Utopian communist state overnight, what utter chaos would ensue.

Dear Hassy, in answer to your nonsense; communism no more appeals to Greens as does fascism appeal to LNP voters, although you are an exception. I still recall your idea of nuking 200 million men, women and children in Pakistan on the pretext of "getting them before they get us", still hold with that idea?

Shadow Minister,

You just told me:

"Given that you so desperately suck at history, no one in their right mind would accord you any deference or respect in this field."

What qualifies you to make that assessment? Please don't embarrass yourself by telling us it is because you are an engineer.

Misopinionated,

Shadow Minister is quite right. By your own logic, you should stick to environmental sociology once you've finished your TAFE certificate in it, and leave the important issues to the bigger kids.

Why do you persist in this infantile 'I've got more than you, nyah ! nyah !' trolling ? It doesn't impress: you come across as nothing but an annoying little fart.

Joe

Mr 0,

I have just demonstrated that I am an engineer that knows more about history than you do. It must suck for you to be such a failure at history.