"Northern Territory Police reject calls to strip officers of guns in wake of Kumanjayi Walker shooting death in Yuendumu"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-15/police-reject-gun-ban-in-remote-communities-yuendumu-death/11705730

Is disarming the police a practical idea or airy-fairy wishful thinking?

What a ridiculous idea, dreamt up by Marxists who've never been near a dangerous situation. Here's a better idea: withdraw police from these totally unnecessary remote communities and let the inhabitants sort out their own problems. Better still, close the communities down altogether. If some people want to live in isolation, let them do it on their dollar.

They need their guns, the idea is wrong those calling for it are wrong
The shooting is being investigated let truth be the outcome

Dear Is Mise,

You can never determine the mental condition of an
individual with a weapon. Police officer or not.
Surely there must be better
ways of controlling difficult situations without
the use of guns. A weapon in
stressful situation can go off accidentally.

Building trust between the police in any community is
vital. Armed police officers are not the way to build
trust.

There was a time in this country when police officers
did not carry guns and they still managed to control
situations. Not everybody is a criminal and carrying
guns is not the way to treat members of your community.
Guns are used in war - are the police at war with their
communities? It would appear so.

At the ever increasing rate of police shootings - people
will stop trusting police officers. At present it appears
that the current police training in weapons control is
grossly inadequate.

Come on Foxy, remember Palm Island. A bunch of drunks attacked the police station & tried to burn it down, with the cops inside.

The cops showed remarkable restraint in not using their guns, but it was only the knowledge that they had them that prevented them being massacred.

You obviously have no idea of the behavior of those with a still primitive mind. In PNG the standard advice to someone who had a road accident with a local was, "drive straight to the airport & fly out". "Do not stop to get anything, sort it out from another country". If a local died, no matter who's fault, the tribe would be coming after you.

If you don't realise a fair bit of northern Australia is still the same as they, you don't know much about northern Oz.

You can't expect our citizens, particularly cops to work in these areas without adequate personal protection.

Dear Hassie,

We often hear about police shootings. We never
hear about retaliations from the ones you called
"primitives." Why is that? Perhaps there are other
ways of handling situations minus guns?

Whenever I read about another police shooting, I am reminded of an incident in my father's war experience. He was in the 9th Ambulance Brigade in New Guinea, and I tape-recorded his memories before he passed away.

At one point he was based with a field regiment as first aid orderly. To quote: "I was sitting in my tent one night reading and a couple of the fellows came down and said Cookie’s gone mad, he’s got a knife, he’s threatening to kill himself, so you better come and do something. So I had to go up - not that I was looking forward to it at the time - I went up there and talked to him and persuaded him to give the knife up."

There would have been plenty of guns around; but the armed and trained soldiers turned to the unarmed medical orderly to talk down the man with the knife.

I am aware that circumstances vary, and that today, ice and other drugs can make people unpredictably violent. But surely a cautious approach first would be sensible. While we don't know all the circumstances, one would have thought there were other ways to approach a young man over breaching sentence conditions, than arriving at his family's home on a Saturday night! How many police? Three bullets were fired? Did the young man have a gun? What risk of collateral damage to family members? No doubt we'll find out at the inquest/enquiry.

The background to Yuendumu: the rock throwing at the medical centre, the children afraid that the police will shoot them, are indicative of a break-down in relationships between people and authority. Add the history of Aboriginal: government relationships, and it is understandable perhaps that the Aboriginal people would not be happy at the white authority control in the town, and the police and medical staff jumpy at Aboriginal unrest. Still, shooting people is not the way to improve the situation.

" Perhaps there are other ways of handling situations minus guns?"

Small-pox infused blankets?

Hi Foxy...You say there's a better way, than to yours a gun? I've been then. Pray tell us what that way is please?

Foxy,
By "Primitives" Hasbeen doesn't mean the poorly educated, he means the badly over-educated !

Dear O Sung Wu,

You ask me to tell you a former police officer, what
better way is there to diffuse a situation apart from
guns?

I would not dream of telling someone with your
years of experience what better way there is. I would
have presumed that you could offer some suggestions.

All I can do is suggest that there must be a better way.
I'm sure that you would know what that is - much better
than I would. But I shall cite what an expert stated:

Queensland Police Commissioner Ian Stewart released a
report in 2016 into the fatal police shootings and
he recommended changes in how police officers are
trained. using minimal force. He made it quite clear
that police should continuously improve -
using best practice. According to him -

We need to avoid the "warrior cop" phenomenon that's
been seen in the US. This mentality provides a
dangerous and false sense of security.

All in all the implication therefore - for the use of guns
is that there
must be a credible threat, and an identified deficiency in
current police capabilities to handle the situation by
alternative means. To date a convincing case has not been
made.

Thank you for that FOXY, I appreciate much of what you said. I was in the job for 32 years, much of it as a 'working' detective (a term that has some significance in the job). And I'm sure Qld's Ian STEWART has many more runs on the board than I. There are only two types of coppers - those who pursue an Admin. career eg. (Christine NIXON, former VICPOL Ch. Commissioner), and those who're at the coal face? I dunno, I only made it to Det.Sgt. a very limited career when juxtaposed to that of Mr. Ian STEWART of Qld?

Dear O Sung Wu,

You'd know more about what kind of police officers
there are. I had assumed that those in Administration
would have had to work their way up through the ranks.
And that promotions don't come easily. But then what do
I know? I also would have thought that police force
administrators - would also have to listen to their
rank and file members and be inclusive and consultative.

Anyway, best practice, new ideas, innovations, help us
to learn and grow. Doing the same old, same old, day in
and day out is not very efficient.

educating the pitfalls of hating the whitie and tribal mentality would be a major improvement. Unfortunately the abc contributes to the problems. Recently an Indigenous guy had to run from his community after umpiring a football match. He could of easily have been beaten or worse. This is standard in outback communities.

Foxy,

There was indeed a time in this country when policemen did not carry guns, but that changed.

"In 1894 a number of unarmed police were seriously injured while attempting to arrest a group of offenders as they attempted to break open a safe in the Union Steamship Company Office in Bridge Street, Sydney. The incident received wide publicity and was known as "Bridge Street Affray".[20] Within 24 hours the premier announced that all police would wear firearms at all times while on duty to prevent the escape of felons and to place them on an equal footing with armed criminals. Previously only police in rural districts had been permitted to carry firearms. Parliament subsequently passed legislation authorising the arming of all members of the NSW Police Force and all Police have carried firearms ever since.[21]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_Police_Force#Arming

That's NSW where the police have been armed from early days, the first policeman killed on duty was overpowered and killed with his issue cutlass.

"You can never determine the mental condition of an
individual with a weapon" [or driving a car, or owning a chainsaw or having access to water pistols and vinegar and, topically, access to a box of matches].

Dear Foxy,

There are numerous countries like the UK, NZ, and Japan who do not routinely arm their police force. As a result the number of mentally ill citizens being gunned down is dramatically reduced as well as the number of police being killed in the line of duty.

The UK did for a short while introduce standard arming of officers but the surge in civilian deaths forced a rethink.

Police in these countries are well trained in de-escalation and rolling containment.

Unfortunately the gun lobby in this country has seen a large increase in the number of firearms within our communities. As well as driving an increase in gun deaths in domestic situations it has also provided a regular and growing source of weaponry for our criminal classes. In this environment I do think officer safety has been impacted and weaponised state police forces will be our future for a long while yet.

No need for guns now anyway, lighting bush fires does more damage !

Steele,

"Unfortunately the gun lobby in this country has seen a large increase in the number of firearms within our communities. As well as driving an increase in gun deaths in domestic situations it has also provided a regular and growing source of weaponry for our criminal classes. In this environment I do think officer safety has been impacted and weaponised state police forces will be our future for a long while yet"

Your prejudice is shewing.

Blind loyalty, to any group even if you are part of that group is harmful
And is the number one sign that group needs a better culture
Police should not investigate police
Yesterday in a NSW Court an officer faced a hearing, he's charged with neglect of duty
See he found a man who had been sexualy phoneing a woman he did not know
He was on parole
And should have been returned to prison
The Policeman warned him but did not research his criminal history
days after he sexualy assualted a 7 year old girl
I rest my case
Any defending because that man or any one, is part of a group you like is dangerous

Dear Is Mise,

Hardly old chap, rather I was just stating a series of facts, tellingly none of which you decided to contest.

Foxy, did you not hear the timeline of events that led to the shooting?
On the Wednesday before the event, two police went to the house where the man was staying, in order to arrest him. He threatened them with an axe, so they left.
Because of this, a special team was sent from Alice Springs to try and arrest him again. Of course they carried guns. You don’t go unarmed to arrest a man who has threatened police with an axe.
And bear in mind, many men in remote communities own rifles and shotguns. My late husband always had firearms, just as many bush people do. They are used for hunting and killing snakes and dangerous crocs and putting down severely injured animals. The police would be helpless in any situation that involved guns if they weren’t armed themselves.

Tend to agree with Big Nans it fact have seem massive crowds throw rocks and other things while trying to burn police cars
That took place after police chased kids in a stolen car on to the reservation
Police must be armed, this case is hopefully, going to tell us why the man died

Steele,

"Hardly old chap, rather I was just stating a series of facts, tellingly none of which you decided to contest."

Can you back up your 'facts'; hardly old chap.

I did not contest them because they have been proven fallacious plenty of times.

However, to help you in your quest, the following

"A major global report confirms gun-related homicides, suicides and accidents are falling in Australia after the introduction of anti-gun laws, and that the effect of such tough laws is similar elsewhere.

James Cook University Associate Professor Richard Franklin joined hundreds of academics and organisations around the world to produce the report, that looked at firearm deaths outside of war zones between 1990 and 2016.

“In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in 2016. That’s a fall from 3.4 deaths per 100,000 people to 1 per 100,000 in 2016,” he said..."
http://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2018/october/tough-laws-prevent-gun-deaths

One solution to having armed police in remote Aboriginal communities would be to not send in police at all, just let the Elders (who have scads of authority) sort it all out.

Hi there BIG NANA...

You've said it, dear lady, I couldn't have put it any better. I was a police officer for over 32 years, uniform and detective (NSW). And I was an ex-pro fighter when younger (with the Commissioner's permission). So generally speaking, I feard no man. But to confront an individual armed with an edged weapon, or axe, a club any weapon, while unarmed changes the whole dynamic considerably. Again I say, your comment was spot on, and I thank you for it.

Dear Steele,

I am convinced that our police forces can
and must do better. It all comes down to the
training - which appears in our country to be
grossly inadequate. Guns are not the answer.
There are other ways of disarming or controlling
offenders.

Dear Big Nana,

Whether offenders are armed with an axe, or a
knife - or even a gun, there are other ways of
disarming people without killing them or serious
injury. It all comes down to proper training.

If "Indiana Jones" in the movies could do it
with a stock whip,
then surely in the NT where there are plenty of
stock-whips police can do the same? (smile).

Seriously though - it is just a question of training.
People should not have to be killed - no matter what.

So far the question has failed to consider why the police would feel the need to carry guns.

Given that a major contribution to the death of the youngster was that the local clinic had been closed due to the concerns for the safety of the staff is a major red flag. If the medical staff whose sole purpose is to help the local community are subject to violence from the community how would the police feel?

That the policeman that shot the young man after being attacked by said victim was charged with murder would appear to be a knee jerk reaction, given that under the circumstances, manslaughter would be the most that any prosecution would be likely to succeed with.

However, the issuing of Tasers instead of guns would be a good idea.

SM,

Tasers are useless against a firearm and have been proven to be often ineffective against those under the influence of drugs.

Foxy,

"Seriously though - it is just a question of training.
People should not have to be killed - no matter what."

What is your solution to the problem of a criminal firing at police?
Die in the line of duty, or shoot to kill?

The police hierarchy are behind the young constable, and he will be exonerated, despite the black racism against him and the police as a whole. Oh, and the white Marxists geeing everything along.

Hi FOXY...

I'm sorry on this topic you've no idea what you're talking about, none at all. Don't tell me all about the UK policing and their training. This is a vast country, and coppers in the bush have a whole different dynamic to confront. And non-lethal weapons: Tasers, CN & CR even CR (not available in Oz) incapacitant not available in Australia, well I lived on the friggin' stuff when I was a TRG trainer. There are many limitations on the effectiveness of Tasers (trade name), better for City use in my opinion.

But I must say FOXY, all the intellectual respect I've held you in, over the years. This statement of yours, '...I'm convinced our police forces can and must do better. It all comes down to the training. FYI FOXY, I officially trained in these matters; The West Midland Police in Birmingham, the RUC in Ulster. The FBI in the USA, the Elizabeth NJ Police Dept. Including many 'ride-alongs' as an observer. On these issues, you are so wrong!

Dear O Sung Wu,

I respect your opinion. However, there should
always be room for improvement in how things are
dealt with and new training techniques can be
adapted and tried.

This reminds me of Academics accusing early explorers of mowing down Aborigines with their guns. Guns that needed to be reloaded whilst 50 Aborigines were throwing several deadly spears each. Makes one wonder what concept some educated people actually have of fairness in deadly conflict. My guess is none !

Oh, my bad, I forgot that they were such peaceful people that called themselves warriors.
Peace warriors perhaps ? Possible !

Foxy,

You've been put in your place; a little knowledge is said to be a dangerous thing but in this case, you are in no danger at all.

Dear o sung wu,

Sorry my friend but Foxy has certainly has a valid point.

Police officers in NSW currently have a single day's training in dealing with mentally ill persons. There is a four day course but this is optional and at the time of the killing of Courtney Topic last year only 2,500 officers had opted to take it.

Courtney was shot within 41 seconds of police arriving at the scene. None of those attending had received the extended training.

The coronor found “police tactics were “entirely inappropriate” and her death exposed a “compelling need for change” in the way police dealt with mentally ill people.”

“She recommended NSW Police consider making the four-day training mandatory for more officers, or that if it is clear that a person is suffering a mental health episode, those with the four-day training be prioritised for dispatch.”

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jul/30/police-tactics-entirely-inappropriate-in-shooting-death-of-courtney-topic-says-coroner

I think there is a reasonable case to be made that if this incident had happened in the UK then this woman would likely still be alive.

I certainly respect your experience in this matter but I find the coroner's findings compelling. I would need to hear from you a solid case as to why they should be dismissed before I would think about altering that view.

Is Mise,

They say that a little knowledge or a
little learning is a dangerous thing,
but it's not half as bad as a lot
of ignorance.

As for putting me in my place?
Nah. to quote Abe Lincoln,
"I always make sure that my feet are
in the right place, then I stand firm!"

0 SUNG WO you know we all do police are not issued with halos on getting the job
Some should not be in the uniform
However not one should face danger unarmed ever
We know little if anything about this death. let us all hope the honest truth comes out

'Oh, my bad, I forgot that they were such peaceful people that called themselves warriors.
Peace warriors perhaps ? Possible !'

yes Individual like the toxic aboriginal activist the abc seem to attrack or invite. Lovely peaceful souls!

I'm sorry STEELEREDUX no solid case from me. Other than to say walk a mile in my shoe's, feel fear from not seeing your family, friends, children, nobody, at the hands some f...kin' rat armed with a weapon of some kind.

You're faced with this. An individual trying to kill you; what do you do; how should you respond; your force options; his weapon being a knife; (creed - 'you always take a gun to a knife fight') piece of wood; a gun; his 'state' - just hate or under the influence alcohol and/or drugs AND hate;...........and you have about 3 seconds to evaluate and decide, what level of force you need to use. And if you're night shift, you're tired and sluggish - you still have those same 3 seconds.

And finally, if you do clear leather, and shoot the offender - well generally speaking your career, and your life is over. To work again as a working detective, you'll forever become 'gunshy' Not because you've killed someone it's what the media will say. I've killed in Vietnam. That's bad enough, I'd hate to take a life when in the police force. The media, the Coroner, and your conscience. And FOXY'S pontificating about more training? What a foolish foolish woman?

o sung wu

you make so much sense. Our nation is stuffed with so many virtue signallers who have no idea who the true heroes of this nation are. We have the vegans destroying the agriculural industry, the rebellion thugs trying to shut down coal and activist who constantly undermine police who put their lives on the line for others. One hopes these are just noisy minorities however with the likes of the abc backing these haters and undermining everything decent about this nation it is concerning. Probably when we look at America there is a little hope. Many many blacks are resisting race politics and embracing Trump as he has opened up opportunites of a future without welfare for him. The swamp and politacal class hate it but he has remained defiant against the lying democrats and media. Hopefully their are more quite Australians than we hear,.

The sad part is that these virtue signallers care nothing about the 19 year old kid shot and even less about the policeman charges. They want to believe lies about the police as it gives them some sort of moral superiority. They are disgusting.

Foxy,

"Seriously though - it is just a question of training.
People should not have to be killed - no matter what."

What is your solution to the problem of a criminal firing at police?
Die in the line of duty, or shoot to kill?

Care to give us the benefit of your knowledge and experience?

Dear O Sung Wu,

Everyone is entitled to a little foolishness
once in a while.

My suggestions come from first hand contacts with senior
members of the both the Victorian and Los Angeles
police forces (I had a relative in the LAPD). As well
as what's currently in the media.

It's an opinion and not meant as criticism or to be
taken personally.

Is Mise,

If you want real personal experience talk to a senior
police officer. It works for me.

God knows RUNNER the emotional impact it leaves on a copper when he has to shoot someone?All the eyes are on him - the public; the media, the Coroner, his colleagues, his superiors; and even his own family "perhaps you could disarm him with your baton Dad"? You're so, so right about the noisy minorities and the PC brigade.

I'd hate to work in the outback unarmed? This bloke who had to be sent interstate for his own protection even before the Coroner has held his Inquest? Well, I'm buggered if I know. And to charge him with murder? When his off-sider had been stabbed with scissors or something. The main criminal proof for murder is 'criminal aforethought' how had he formed that intent, in this matter? You're spot on RUNNER. I've lost so much respect for FOXY over this, I really have. I thought she'd more pragmatic, then to say what she said, 'police need more training'

o sung wu

yeah I have many Indigeneous friends. I can tell you the biggest barrier to them getting on and succeeding is the activist who constantly pit family against family and black against white. Many of them are well paid and benefit from revising history and pushing the narrative that whites 'stole' their land. This poor copper won't get a fair trial and it defies belief how they could charge him with murder. Then again with gutless politicians scared off being labelled 'racist' it probably does not defy belief. That Jussie Smollet character was cheered by the leftist media after making up a race crime. They quickly dropped the story with little to no apology. You could be sure if it was a white he would be locked up for a long time and the abc would make a 'documentary' on it. Every copper who works in those communities deserve praise. Imagine the chaos if they were not there. The child molestation, the women beatings and child neglect would be much worse. The left have shown over the last 50 years they could not care less about the INdigeneous but are happy to virtue signal like on every other issue.

Foxy.

You said,
"People should not have to be killed - no matter what."

What do you think a policeman who is being shot at by a criminal should do?

It's a fairly simple question.

As for my own experience, when being shot at, shoot back.

For all those who criticize police for shooting someone who is armed with a knife:
"The 21-foot rule has long been used by police officers. Essentially, it says that when an assailant wielding a knife is closing in, they will cover 21 feet in the time it takes you to draw and fire your gun. That’s a lot of ground and it also puts intense pressure on the person drawing the gun.

And you might not even have that much time. Recently, a study at Minnesota State University- Mankato found that the amount of distance covered can be greater than 21 feet. Some in law enforcement suggest that training officers on using edge tools is necessary to provide them with choices for dealing with an attack."

In other words, police should be trained in knife fighting, just as many soldiers are and were.
http://www.krudoknives.com/krudo-khronicles/knife-vs-gun-knives-are-a-better-option/

The recent events in the NT, and many other before, have little to do with law enforcement or crime prevention, but a lot to do with power and authority. Heavily armed police going into a vulnerable community supposedly to enforce the law in what was a minor matter, begs they question; Why was such a show of force necessary, if it was not to exert power and authority over already disadvantaged people.

Foxy, you have spoken a lot of sense here, don't be put off by the so called expert who is simply dismissive of any real inquiry into police behaviour. A copper shoots a citizen, well its nothing to get excited about, an occupational hazard, so it would seem. The supporters in the peanut gallery will always applaud that kind of police action, when it don't affect them.

Dear o sung wu,

Sorry mate, not having a bar of it.

You calling Foxy a foolish, foolish woman when this was very much the position of a coroner who found the training of the police inadequate for dealing with mentally ill people who are disproportionately the victims of police shootings in our society.

You rightly talk about the impact of a police officer when they have to shoot someone, but then reject calls for better training to better avoid such situations.

In the case of Courtney she was in a Hungry Jacks carpark seen repeatedly hitting herself in the head, constantly talking to herself, all while pointing a knife toward her stomach. The police arrived and in under a minute had peppersprayed her then shot her to death.

There is not only the impact on the girl's family but also on those who fired their weapons at a normally quite girl who was experiencing a psychotic episode.

There is little doubt that better training may well have produced a different outcome.

Quote

They also heard the young woman in a striped top and jeans was “waving” the knife about and “hitting herself in the head”.
There was concern Topic was about to hurt herself.
Despite this, senior police had not contacted Falzon to respond as an accredited member of the police mental health intervention team.
The 12-year veteran had only reacted to the urgent priority-two call in a general duties capacity.
He said that, since receiving the training in 2014, he had never been contacted by senior officers to employ his MHIT training.

End quote.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/mar/22/hungry-jacks-shooting-police-told-woman-was-wielding-large-knife-inquest-tol

IM,

A taser should be able to disable an attacker, the question is why are tasers not the first option.

With regards the charges, that the youth had already just stabbed one officer and was busy trying to stab the second when he was shot. I believe that the chances of convicting the policeman are slender.

Crims are crims & they'll always give no consideration to the outcome of their actions until they cop a dose of their own medicine !
Then the do-gooders will rub salt into the wounds.

THINK Catholic Priests found support, even from parents who refused to believe their own children, tell me that is not true!
Some want to do just that, blindly support every cop
The same result is the out come
READ nines online news this morning
About the cop who is stood down, truly absorb his long long list of bad/dreadful acts
Then tell me more training is not needed

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I've always valued your opinion even though we often disagree. On these issues, I'll drop off the discussion altogether. Other than to say - unless you've been in their (coppers) shoes, you, the Coroner, the wise men of the High Court of Australia, know F...ck all about what's like. I say this to you with respect. Thank you anyway for your contribution.

Dear o sung wu,

I have experienced an officer being stabbed in front of me in a scuffle where I tried to assist, giving me admittedly a small degree of appreciation for what is faced by police in situations like this, but I fully agree that is only scratching the surface.

As such, and with due respect for the service you gave to the community, dropping our discussion is naturally appropriate.

Paul1405, why did the police go to a community heavily armed? Did you not read my response to Foxy?
Local police had already tried to arrest this man several days earlier but when he threaten them with an axe, they abandoned the attempt.
This is why a special unit was sent from Alice Springs to try and arrest him, and of course they were armed. He had already shown himself to be dangerous.
As for a show of power in a community of oppressed people, well, you couldn’t show your ignorance any more than you have with that statement.
You have obviously never been in a remote community when riots are happening but I have. It always seemed to occur when my husband was away, and I would be in fear for the safety of my children and myself. Mainly because my husband was chairman and I was white, two targets every time tensions were high. I would shut myself and the children in the laundry, because it had no windows. I would have the .22 and the shotgun loaded, a big nulla nulla in my hand and the blue heeler shut in with us. Sometimes we spent hours there, listening to boomerangs and spears bouncing off the metal roof, listening to the screams of women and children, hoping and praying no one decided to break into our house. It was terrifying!
Aboriginal people are not oppressed in their own communities, it’s the white staff who are oppressed and who live in a constant state of awareness that violence could break out at any moment and that they have to watch every word they say in case they provoke an angry response.
I suggest you educate yourself by talking to some teachers and nurses, apart from me, with first hand experience.

Years ago the then RTA held mass meetings around the state, called gate meetings the first was with all workers just on start time
We [Delegats officials and management] went in to office lock up to talk the issues out after
We had great first nation Delegates and a management rep was one too
Police management, and those delegates, saw our accommodation was high fence lock down
Because violence and drunken behavior was part of nightlife there, still is
Send unarmed police? please

Dear Steele,

The Australian Law Reform Commission has stated that
"It is often suggested that one way of improving
relations between Aborigines and the police is by
improving the understanding of each group of the other..."

During the Commission's Public Hearings many witnesses both
in urban and remote areas mentioned problems that resulted
from the lack of understanding and argued that better
training and education for police officers could improve
the situation.

Apparently the extent of instruction in Aboriginal culture
during police training varies greatly in the State and
Territory police forces.

Obviously there's no going back to the days when police
did not carry guns. So the training associated with their
use needs to be unremitting. Australian lives are relying
on it.

See you on another discussion.

Foxy,

You seem to be completely unaware that in remote settlements, many children (and now young people) have been born with foetal alcohol syndrome, with both parents heavy drinkers. FAS causes victims to be impulsive, unaware of the consequences of their actions, living for the moment, and very much inclined to be violent to the point of self-destruction. This poor young man seems to be one of those victims of parental neglect and poor behaviour.

The upshot is that any police trying to control or apprehend someone with FAS has to be extremely tactful, but this may not be anywhere enough. This young man threatened police earlier with an axe, and possibly - in the final situation - with a knife. It's reported that he did stab one police officer.

So perhaps people living in the settlements, certainly including Indigenous people, need to realise the terrible damage that alcohol and neglect have done, and will continue to do until they lift their game. No amount of 'cultural training' on the part of the police will change that. The ball is in the court of the Indigenous people.

It may be far too late for the victims of FAS now, but it may be just possible, in some settlements, for the twin scourges of alcohol and neglect to be turned around, to minimise, or reduce, the ghastly problems that they are causing, in the future. But only the people can do that, nobody else.

Joe

Dear Joe,

That's why improving the understanding of each group
of the other is crucial. As I stated earlier in
Public Hearings many witnesses both in urban and remote
areas mentioned the problems that resulted from the
lack of understanding and argued that better training
and education for police officers could improve the
situation. Shooting people is not the answer.

Foxy,

"Obviously there's no going back to the days when police
did not carry guns. So the training associated with their
use needs to be unremitting. Australian lives are relying
on it."

Spot on!!

Police need more time on the range and more training with rifles and shotguns as well as their pistols; some appropriate unarmed combat and knife fighting would not go amiss either.

When my youngest daughter was a policewoman I introduced her to Indian Stick Fighting and she soon exceeded my level of expertize.

Here's one on using the walking stick.
http://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/639581584550760766/

Further to the above,
http://www.scribd.com/document/82212287/The-Walking-Stick-Method-of-Self-Defence-H-G-Lang-An-Officer-of-The-Indian-Police-1923

http://lacannevigny.wordpress.com/pierre-vigny/the-stick-fighting-method-of-pierre-vigny/

The walking stick is a formidable weapon, not only against dogs!

Dear Is Mise,

So you are encouraging wide spread use of Indian fighting sticks?

Well we have heard from Big Nana about spears and boomerang use so I suppose we might as well put Indian fighting sticks in the mix.

Different implements but otherwise not all that different perspectives between you and some of our indigenous folk.

Loudmouth has an understanding of remote communities we all need
No fun in saying it but yes they are totaly different than City communities
And fetal alcohol syndrome is very real, for the whole life not just childhood
Court today, found a man charged after the death of a man he caught robbing his house, acquitted him of all charges
Yet the dead mans family [he had a long criminal record] screamed and implied the verdict is RACIST
Some from all groups, are racists, some can not be controlled by words

Steele,

"Different implements but otherwise not all that different perspectives between you and some of our indigenous folk"

I'll take that as a compliment, nice to be put up there with my old mate "Boong" Ingra (2nd Batt when KIA, previously 3rd Batt, Royal Australian Regiment) who gave his life in Malaya during the "Emergency".
He would have been in his eighties now.

He prefered the Owen Gun but I always prefered the Rifle, No1.

Belly,

I've been told by a long-term health expert in the Kimberley that, at one school, when the principal was asked if there were any kids in his school who he suspected of having FAS, replied, "About 90 %."

I should spell that out: ninety per cent. Some settlements must seem like the craziest of mad-houses. especially on pension day. Of course, those poor buggers have not just violent lives but very short ones.

Only racists would tolerate their continuation in their present form or attempt to cover it up, but clearly reducing services is not an option, given that police are obviously required, perhaps in many more settlements and in much bigger numbers, since some settlements don't see a copper for months. Christ knows what some FAS victims get up to in the meantime.

Joe

Foxy.

"See you on another discussion"

Don't tell us that you are not going to give us the benefit of your wisdom and undoubted vast experience and not tell us how the police can avoid shooting someone who is unlawfully attacking them?

As the bullets whiz by their heads, should they reason with the assailant(s)?

What would be a good opening line apart from BANG?

Only people who have lived in these places can understand the level of violence that exists there. Even worse, is taken for normal by the residents.

Dear Is Mise,

What pompous rot.

The reason why it is unlikely in the near future that we will be able to have unarmed regular policing is because of the type of society we are so busily creating, one where inequity and a stripping away of social justice is rife and encouraged by the likes of you.

Any rational person would want the type of governance which reduced our prison populations and would be willing to spend the required amount on social services to achieve it.

This in turn would reduce crime and violence and therefore the need to universally weaponise our police forces.

I will be honest, if I was confronted with a psychotic person intent on self harm I would now think twice about getting the police involved. Being mentally ill should not mean a death sentence but I struggle to be confident that our state police would have the required skill set to prevent lethal force being used.

Now it might stir your loins to think the best response would be to go bang but it isn't the kind of society I would hope to see flourish in this country.

Steele,

Glad that you could drop by, perhaps you can tell us what the police should do when being attacked with lethal force?

Foxy says that it's never OK to kill, what do you think?

Should a policeman fire at someone who is apparently intent on killing him?

How are you coping with Psychology 101, tough going?

Dear Is Mise,

You asked; "you can tell us what the police should do when being attacked with lethal force?"

Sure, they should employ techniques and protocols which inform the UK, NZ and Japanese police forces who are for the most part unarmed. The rate of police killings of civilians by NZ police is under a quarter the rate of Australia per capita.

Over 40% of those killed by police in Australia since 1998 were suffering from a diagnosed mental illness and over half these were schizophrenics.

You seem to think this is acceptable and justifiable, I do not.

As to my Psychology 101 I think I'm doing fine as it seems I have you pretty well pegged.

As to my

Loudmouth agree thanks for the confirmation
Already aware of the numbers and desperately want much better
Even if, for a generation, we have to get tough we must stop this chain that ruins lives
You will see the same in country white families but not to this extent
I will, forever, demand better from some police, too many in fact who become part of the problem but they need to be armed

Steele,

"Unfortunately the gun lobby in this country has seen a large increase in the number of firearms within our communities. As well as driving an increase in gun deaths in domestic situations it has also provided a regular and growing source of weaponry for our criminal classes. In this environment I do think officer safety has been impacted and weaponised state police forces will be our future for a long while yet."

You seem to be unable to back up this ridiculous claim, I gave you a refuting reference; how about a supporting one from you?

"You asked; "you can tell us what the police should do when being attacked with lethal force?"

Sure, they should employ techniques and protocols which inform the UK, NZ and Japanese police forces who are for the most part unarmed. The rate of police killings of civilians by NZ police is under a quarter the rate of Australia per capita."

Are they the same techniques and protocols that the unarmed policeman murdered in London used or the ones that his colleagues used when shooting the three London Bridge murderers?

"Three men who killed eight people, including two Australians, in the London Bridge and Borough Market terror attack of 2017 were lawfully killed by police after ignoring clear warning shouts, an inquest has found."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-17/london-bridge-terror-inquest-concludes/11315990

Perhaps you can now tell us what the police should do when being attacked with lethal force?

"As to my Psychology 101 I think I'm doing fine as it seems I have you pretty well pegged.

As to my"

Why did you feel the need to start repeating yourself?

Addicted to the click of your own keyboard?

Issy, do you agree with the Shooters Parties lunatic policy of arming ALL citizens from the age of 9 to 99 with lethal weapons? You are a known supporter of the Dodge City mentality. Have you ever done a cash run for the SSAA, That is bring funds from the masters at the NRA for political use in Australia by the political wing of the SSAA, the Shooters and Hooters party?

Paul,

Grow up: or are you already in your second childhood?

Issy, you are always asking me if I support non existent Green policy. So I take it the answer is yes. Don't like it when its thrown back at you.

"Over 40% of those killed by police in Australia since 1998 were suffering from a diagnosed mental illness and over half these were schizophrenics". SR

And who's fault would that be SR. Not the police who are told to go & apprehend one of these more off their rocker than average. No it is the fault of the greenies & particularly lefties like you who pushed to get these people out on the street, no longer in a protective institution. As usual when academics & bleeding hearts are allowed to interfere in the real world a disaster is soon the result.

Real people knew it was a ridiculous idea, but the academic psychiatrists & their lefty mates kept pushing until they caused the catastrophe we have today. Now you want to blame some poor cops when they are confronted with the catastrophe you caused.

I would love to see you dealing with one of these with out calling the cops. I guess we would see just how quickly a clown can put on their running shoes when in fear.

Paul,

In the past, I have likened you to Dr Geobells the Nazi Propaganda Minister but I won't do it again.
It goes against all that I was taught about speaking ill of the dead.

Paul1405 couldn't cope with being in a remote indigenous community.
Belly would love it because they're largely Labor supporting.
Foxy, Steele Redux, Mr Opinion would succumb to depression in mere days.
ps.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just going by my experience.