28th April 2020, marks the 250th anniversary of Cook's landing at Botany Bay. A short while later 22nd August 1770 Cook wrote in his journal;

"...I now once more hoisted English Coulers and in the Name of His Majesty King George the Third took posession of the whole Eastern Coast from … Latitude [38° South] down to this place by the Name of New South Wales together with all the Bays, Harbours Rivers and Islands situate upon the said coast..."

Cooks intentions were clear, as far as he was concerned Australia was British, and that was that. There was no consideration given to any possible pre-existing native title. Was this an unlawful land grab by Cook, a crime that has gone unpunished for two and a half centuries? Is there anything for all Australians to celebrate come 28th April next?

Just as a side, the native Maori of Aotearoa have recently been successful in having the pakaha remove several Captain Cook pigeon roosts. In Gisborne, the local council said it will "relocate" a Cook statue erected in 1969 following complaints by the local Maori community. Leaders of the Ngati Oneone tribe say historical records show that Cook’s crew shot nine of their people, killing six, they do not want monuments to a person they see as a “murderer”, and refer to Cook as “crooked Cook”.

So Paul you want to rewrite history, and propose that the present situation of occupation is based on an evil act of the past. Obviously you cannot forgive and live in unison, and the advantages that the present has brought. Learn that there have been losses in the past that have cost. I have had them also, but I do not want to grieve the losses, but live the present. The payback system is primitive thinking.

Josephus,
wharped minds don't learn, they react on not thought through emotion !

Obviously Paul, your attitudes have been corrupted by your woman.

I was questioning James Cooks actions in the Pacific on his three voyages of "discovery". Today Cook is venerated as an immortal of British history. No one can deny Cook was a great mariner, navigator, "discoverer" among many other worthy attributes. Having recently read 'The Voyages of Captain Cook', and one thing I noted in this detailed account was most places in the Pacific where Cook landed uninvited, usually resulted in the shooting of several of the local inhabitants.

Cook also went beyond his Admiralty orders in claiming the East Coast of Australia for Britain. His orders were later conveniently forgotten.

I find it interesting; when a person is accused of shooting someone, they're often reviled and condemned. Without seeking to determine the circumstances of that shooting? Was it a case of self-defense? The preservation of life?

Perhaps when Cook landed in NZ, albeit uninvited, he may've come ashore with peaceful intentions, initially seeking water & fresh produce. And the Maori people, misunderstanding his peaceful intentions, attacked Cook's party, resulting in nine being shot with six killed. A tragedy, without a doubt. The primary reason for a section of marines being onboard the Endeavour is to protect the ship and its Captain.

None of us were there. None of us can predict what was initially in Cook's mind - History seems to suggest Cook was mainly a peaceful man and only resorted to his Marine's muskets when attacked, precisely what any of us would do in similar circumstances.

Regarding the decision by the Gisborne Council to relocate Capt. Cook's statue? Well, it sounds to me to be a real nonsense, as the various councilors finish their meeting and retire back to their homes to watch TV and enjoy a drink? Had the area, remained undiscovered and unsettled, what would its future have been? Undeveloped and unsettled. Would those critics of Cook prefer some other explorer, the Dutch, Spanish, even the Portuguese to discover their land? Would any of these Nations have done any better?

Dear Paul,

This is a question of balance.

Firstly - even the Captain Cook Society notes that
he is commemorated by more than 100 memorials,
many in Australia.

It's
hardly a bad thing to suggest that Cook is already
well-honoured and that perhaps spending more than $50
million dollars could be allocated to a more worthy and
needy project.

More importantly, since W.E.H. Stanner's call to end
the "great Australian Silence" in 1968 Australians have
become more aware of the ancient cultures that have
possessed this land at least as far back as the
Pleistocene. Retreating back into a lazy "cult of
forgetfulness" with a government promoted triumphant
Cook narrative narrows a history that has been slowly
broadening for decades.

The anniversary of Cooks voyage in 2020 can be marked.
But without genuine consultation with our First Nations
People to find form and language that offers respect
it will be another exercise in exclusion.
Which I'm sure nobody wants.

The event will be commemorated, and the commemoration will be supported by a majority of Australians proud of their history. Their is no 'should' about it, and what loony-Left vandals do in tinpot New Zealand doesn't come into it either.

the Marxist again showing they can only ever play the politics of ungratefulness for all the benefits they enjoy today as a result of others hard work.

Put your head in to one of those portable lunch sheds we see on every construction site
Ask those sitting in them two things
Tell me what you truly think, not what you think I want to hear
Even try factory lunch rooms
Next question, could be about many things the true left wants
Do you think we should not celebrate Cooks landing/change Australia day to another date?
Be prepared to leave fast
Report on Labors defeat out today, briefs at least
I never needed to see it
Workers not just retirees, refused to vote Labor
PC is a weapon the very few use to enforce unwanted things on us all, no never rewrite history

Dear Belly,

Here's an interesting link that gives us food
for thought:

http://theconversation.com/no-longer-tied-to-britain-australia-is-still-searching-for-its-place-in-the-world-70407

It's worth a read.

Paul,
Thanks for bringing this date to our attention.

I hope and trust the government has the date firmly fixed and calls it "Discovery Day" with appropriate ceremony and celebrations. A new memorial at Botany Bay would also be appropriate to celebrate the event in the career of a great mariner and navigator.

We can be forever thankful for Cook's discovery and claiming of the East coast for Briton. His other discoveries in the Pacific Ocean are truely remarkable. We can also be thankful that Briton was strong enough to hold the entire island after Cook's discovery. So began the country AUSTRALIA.

Dear Paul,

I've just read another interesting article on
a related topic where the question was asked -

"Isn't it time we stopped spending hundreds of
millions of
dollars on new memorials and monuments on
those who are no longer living and instead focused
on the living?"

Apparently it seems that we have spent the monetary
cost of commemoration over the past 4 years of
ANZAC 100 - approximately $552m of federal, state and
territory money.

We're spending millions on monuments which catalogue every
death in World War I, yet until last year - no one was
tracking the number of returning modern veterans taking
their own lives.

We don't focus on the plight of modern veterans - about
the many suicides, addictions, bureaucratic nightmares.
What about helping people doing it tough - like our
farmers, people with disabilities, people on "struggle
street?"

Just a few thoughts.

Well said HenryL. The whiners don't know how well they are, and how badly off they and the rest of us will be if politicians listen to them.

From prehistory to today people have crossed through areas of other
peoples. You can only judge by the longtime result. To do anything
else is just an indulgence in blame.
Are the aborigines of NSW better off now ?
If not then go bush if it was so much better then.
Most if not all the killings were not malicious but
were the result of misunderstandings.
Imagine the reaction of the sailors when first confronted with a Haka !

The people of New Zealand and NSW were unknown to the rest of the world
and they did not know of the world.
As the Roman Empire expanded the people they conquered opposed the
Roman army, but after they settled the locals adopted Roman ways
because they were better than their previous customs.
The world has always been thus ! Celebrate it. Its your history.

Hi Foxy,

In total agreement, the wasting of $50 million to celebrate a non-event. I have acknowledged Cook was a great mariner, navigator, "discoverer" among many other worthy attributes. I use "discoverer" in this fashion as he actually discovered nothing, people thousands of years before Cook had made those very discoveries. Just as valid as in 1988 when Burnum Burnum "discovered" England and claimed it for the Aboriginal people of Australia.

By the European standards of the day, Cook was considered more enlightened when it came to humanity than most of his contemporaries, but only by degree. Although by his third voyage Cook had become somewhat unhinged, even to the point of being extremely disliked by those he had contact with on that voyage. It resulted in disaster for Cook, killed and eaten by the locals in the Sandwich Islands.

Having come from a poor background, Cook was very much self serving, an ambitious social climber. It was in his interest to claim lands for Britain, it did him no harm with the elite of British society.

Maybe Cook was a bit of a Ned Kelly character, seen by some as someone who could do no wrong, by others, a murderer and illegal land grabber.
.

Dear Paul,

Just a bit of trivia for you.

Captain James Cook's naturalist - Johann Georg Adam
Forster was the author of a celebrated book
about Captain James Cook's 2nd voyage to the
South Pacific "A Voyage Round The World."
As a traveller and naturalist Forster made major
contributions to the natural sciences and travel
literature of his time.

The renowed scientist was a Professor at Vilnius
University in Lithuania - 1784-1787.

We MUST learn from history
But remove it?
Foxy I am a Republican, but our history, while needing some say sorry , is fact
I think every one must be treated equally, that includes those first Australians who both think it is ok to remember and those who do not want to
May I ask if we, because first nation represents about two percent of our population, change such days/celebrations
Is that being fair to the very much bigger number who want it left alone?
There are votes to be won or lost on this issue, marginalizing the majority is unwise

cont'd ...

Dear Paul,

Captain Cook was not eaten by the local in Sandwich
Islands. According to Britannica - the Hawaiian
islanders who killed Captain Cook were not cannibals.

We're told that they believed that the power of a man
was in his bones so they cooked part of Cook's body
to enable the bones to be easily removed.

It was the cooking of his body which gave rise to the
rumour of cannibalism.

Cook's body was buried at sea.

Dear Belly,

Have a read of the link I gave on page 2 of this
discussion. It may put things into a better
perspective then I ever could for you regarding
the celebration or not of Captain Cook's landing.

It's worth a read.

I think the way the aboriginals treated Cook and his fellow travellers was abysmal.

Everyone knows that when people arrive in your country by boat, without passport or visa, unannounced and uninvited, you're supposed to welcome them with open arms. Welcome them into your community. Give them access to all you've got and then some.

Promise to make 'em citizens of your 'country' tout de suite.

Additionally you are forbidden to tell them that they need to learn your ways and if you're really compassionate you're supposed to tell them that in reality their culture is as good as or better than yours and they can and should continue to practice said culture even when it defies the original national culture.

But instead the aboriginals treated him like an invader, an illegal arrival, when we, more advanced and more caring all know that boat-people are neither. I'll bet that if the aboriginals knew there was such a thing as the Pacific they'd have found a Solution to the Cook problem there.

We need to celebrate Cook's good grace in being so forgiving while treated so appallingly as merely the first of the boat-people.

Foxy,
From where did you get the info that the government was going to spend $50 million on Cooks "Discovery Day"?

If anything is planned, they had better get a move on.

mhaze,

Not much the open borders mob can say to that.

Dear HenryL.,

The $50 million sum appeared in articles in the Australian,
the Conversation, the Business Insider, the Sydney
Morning Herald, and other sources on the web.

mhaze,

Captain Cook and his party as you point out
may have arrived without passports and visas,
unannounced and uninvited - and you feel
that they were treated abysmally?

That they should have been welcomed with open arms?

By whom? Didn't Captain Cook declare the land was
empty - not inhabited? Did our history books lie?

Also Captain Cook and Co may not have had
passports or visas - they did manage to bring with
them guns, dispossession, displacement,
social upheaval, and disease.

But hey - why let facts get in the way of a good yarn!
(smile).

Dear mhaze,

Perhaps they instinctively knew that unlike virtually very other colonising nations the British just never leave.

Foxy,

"Also Captain Cook and Co may not have had
passports or visas - they did manage to bring with
them guns, dispossession, displacement,
social upheaval, and disease."

Guilding the lily a bit there, just how and when did Cook bring those things?

Point take Foxy,

The Hawaiians like most Pacific Islanders and Maori believed in mana (power) which was possessed by powerful people such as chiefs. Cook was viewed by the Hawaiians as a powerful chief, almost a god. The story of Cooks time of arrival, and his departure and then return is interesting. Cooks return after departing was a big let down for the Hawaiians.

On visiting Hawaii some years back I was told how in past times tribes went to great lengths to conceal the burial place of a dead chief for fear another chief would steal his remains to obtain his mana.

A popular basic dish of Maori people today is 'Boil Up', in Fiji its called 'Meaty Bones'. Its simply bones boiled with greens and 'dough boys' (flour dumplings). The wife tells me it was popular even before Cooks time. Today they boil particularly pork bones, soft ones preferred, what were they boiling up in the "good old days"?

The wife tells me she has given up eating pakeha, ever since she found out they are high in cholesterol and saturated fat, she much prefers a good Chinese meal, said 'Huna Munas' (Chinese) are so tasty. As they say, when its cooked it all taste like chicken!

Can't recall at what island, but Cook to find out if the locals were cannibals had a natives head boiled, and then offered it to the local big wigs, they ate it, he got his answer.

Is there evidence James Cook was a murderer?

During Cooks three voyages of "discovery" at least 100 indigenous people were killed, although this number cannot be verified from Cook's journals, or later written European accounts.

The murder of Te Maro of the Ngati Oneone Iwi (tribe) near present day Gisborne NZ. Te Maro was most likely about 25 years of age, he was the leader of the kapa haka group which ceremonially challenged Cooks landing party 9th October 1769. The group of 14 to 16 young Maori warriors were unarmed, they performed a traditional huka, something the Europeans mistook as an aggressive act. Te Maro stepped forward and with a traditional Maori hongi (pressing of noses) greeted Cook. The two groups could communicate, Cook had with him Tupaia, a Tahitian priest, who spoke a similar language to the Maori. Cook offered no gifts, as would have been the expected custom. Te Maro then grabbed Cooks sward from it scabbard and ran some 50 yards up the beach. Te Maro then proceed to display his prowess with the sward in taiaha fashion, something no doubt he was expert in. One shot rang out from a Marine's (11 Royal Marines were on Endeavour) musket, and Te Maro was killed instantly. The fatal shot would have certainly been ordered by Cook. Several other unarmed Maori were killed at the same time.

Cook recorded the killing of Te Maro in his journal. There was no mention that the killing was unauthorised, only regret, or any punitive action was taken against the marine involved.

If the Maori had wanted to drive Cook and his landing party back into the sea, sending a small unarmed kapa haka group was not the way to do it. Descendants of Te Maro and the others murdered by Cook still live in the Gisborne area. I'm sure they would be happy if the municipal council relocated the Cook memorial to the local rubbish tip.

The Anti-White brigade is really putting it up a couple of notches here ! Inventing new histories where the ignorance of one lot is highly excusable yet the ignorance of the explorers is not !

Only if you are an Australian Aboriginal of course. I thought the answer would have been obvious even to someone pretending to have an Arts degree (nudge nudge wink wink know who I mean).

Is Mise,

You asked me just how and when Cook brought guns,
dispossession, displacement, social upheaval
and disease to the country?

Cook as history books tell us did so in 1770
when he claimed the eastern part of the
Australian continent as a British territory beginning
the process of colonisation in which the above
mentioned things followed for our Indigenous people.

"Also Captain Cook and Co may not have had
passports or visas - they did manage to bring with
them guns, dispossession, displacement,
social upheaval, and disease.

But hey - why let facts get in the way of a good yarn!
(smile)."

Well, as much as you've been propagandised into believing those are facts, they aren't. Cook didn't use guns against the aboriginals, although there were a few ineffectual attempts to get some bush meat. No dispossession, displacement, disease. Perhaps some social upheaval as stone aged primitives were informed that there was a world outside their few hundred square kilometres.

Anyhow, my post was more tongue-in-check, just making fun of the (tenuous) hypocrisy of those who treat unwanted arrivals differently depending on where they're from and where they're going.

I half hoped someone would respond in kind, but alas. But someone still might do so.

Dear mhaze,

Although its true that there were many comparisons between Cook and latter-day boat-people, there was one major, glaring difference which I'm surprised you didn't notice....Cook NEVER asked for asylum.

You see you've gotta ask. You can't just turn up expecting them to know what you want. Of course, had he asked he'd have got asylum easily since he would more than ample grounds - although to be fair, we now know that one only needs to make up stories of distress in order to be considered a valid asylum seeker these days.

But Cook could have spun a heart-rending story of why he needs asylum in this new/old land. He could have talked about how his homeland didn't have democracy and therefore suppressed the people. He could talk of the fact that his homeland was at war and he was therefore a war refugee. He could talk about how his country had forced him to travel the world with that insufferable Joe Banks - a clear case of cruel and unusual punishment. He could seek asylum based on race since he was British and everyone hates (or will hate) the British.
So ask for asylum and...bang, he's got it.

On the other hand he was the captain of the ship. Perhaps he was a people smuggler. So lock him up, throw away the key. Vilify him for all time.

But if that's the case, why didn't his men ask for asylum? Surely they'd have a better life in this new land. Food aplenty (we are assured - grin), and as many wives as you could steal and enslave. True, most of the women had been hit with the ugly stick, and , given the misogyny of the culture, lots of other sticks as well, but beggars can't be choosers. Blainey points out that aboriginals in S-E Australia probably had a high living standard in 1770 than many Britons, so the men would have benefited from the move although they'd have to pretend, then as now, that economics had nothing to do with it...no never, perish the thought.

/cont

/cont

Now there is one problem with all this...the ask part. There was a language barrier, and asking might be an issue. And in those primitive days, you couldn't just ask a government supplied lawyer or human rights advocate to lie (er...I mean, talk) on your behalf.

So surely you understand mhaze that your silly assertions comparing Cook to all those rooly, trooly asylum seekers of today is just plain wrong.

But imagine if he did get asylum. These days we are all required to pretend (err...I mean totally acknowledge) that refugees add great benefit socially and economically to our nation. If Cook was accepted as a refuge, people today would have to acknowledge that the British provided something useful to the nation - heads would explode all over the place.

_____________________________________________________________

This'll be my last post here for a while. Under the knife Monday and travelling tomorrow. No one's offering any guarantees I won't be coming out of the hospital feet first.

Cook visited the Hawaiian Islands and was welcomed with open arms and they all went down to the shore to fare him off. They were happy to see him go. A little while out to sea he broke a mast and decided to return to his new friends in order to make repairs. Apparently they weren't too happy to see him back, thinking he had gone for good. THEY KILLED HIM. Anyone want to put a reason forward as to why the mood changed?

mhaze true best wishes look for you soon
Poling, wish we could trust it
Seems after we hung up our hard phone lines our pollsters got it very wrong
But if my wandering around very many market days, talking to ex work mates and just mates is any measure we need to know
HURTS but see they told me things I did not want to hear
They are concerned about PC small groups trying to enforce things on the rest of us
Is it not true? learn from history but do not hide it
We must learn from our past but bury it?
Test, informed folk know Japan has hidden its ww2 history from its kids at school
Should they
No way they should

Foxy,

Cook did none of those things and to assert so shews either a callous disregard for the truth or an abysmal ignorance of history; Cook didn't give any guns to the Aboriginals, nor did he dispossess them of anything, nor did he pass on any disease, etc, to blame Cook for things that happened after his death is stupid.

He also brought ropes with him, you would blame him for any subsequent suicides by hanging?
He had sugar on board as well, let's blame him for subsequent tooh decay and ill health?

mhaze,

Best of luck and a speedy recovery.

mhaze,

All the best with your procedure.

Wishing you well.

Hi Mhaze,

Best of luck, mate. See you back here soon :)

Paul,

In your initial post, you make the conceptual mistake of confusing political sovereignty with land tenure: Cook proclaimed the sovereignty of the British Crown over NSW. This didn't mean that he was also claiming British ownership of all land. In British imperialist territories in Africa, Malaya, Cyprus. Ceylon, etc., British sovereignty was claimed, but land tenure systems were recognised as they stood. Or at least, so C.K. Meek claimed in his 1940s "Land Law and Custom in the Colonies", extracts of which are on my web-site: www.firstsources.info . [Thanks for the opportunity, Paul :) ]

The British grappled for decades over how to understand and recognise the Indigenous land tenure system, given that Aboriginal people here were foragers, hunter/gatherers. It took the British authorities back in London around sixty years to explicitly formulate their recognition - as they saw it - of the rights of Aboriginal people to use the land as they always had done. Those rights were implicit earlier in the foundation documents of SA (and in instructions to various NSW governors earlier still). But those over-arching rights still exist in SA's environment and pastoral legislation, alongside of federal native title legislation.

Now, native title recognises and extends those land tenure rights as vaguely akin to freehold rights across Australia, if attached to groups rather than individuals. Notice that, if you or I owned a freehold property, the various levels of government would still have sovereignty: you and I would come fully under the law at each level, federal, State and local. But conversely, under usual circumstances, no government could impinge on our rights to the title of our property.

Anyway, to get back to the topic: like it or not (and I don't, particularly), the occupation or invasion or settlement of Australia was inevitable: no other imperialist, or would-be imperialist, power since the eighteenth century would have left Australia alone. That's how it is. No gnashing of teeth or cursing the past 230 years can change that.

Yes ? No ?

Joe

Is Mise,

This is taken from the web for your information:

"Prior to British settlement more than 500
Indigenous groups inhabited the Australian
continent, approx. 750,000 people in total.
Their cultures developed over 60,000 years,
making Indigenous Australians the custodians
of the world's most ancient living culture.
Each group lived in close relationship with the
land and had custody over their own country."

"In 1770 during his first Pacific voyage
Lieutenant James Cook claimed possession of the
east coast of Australia for the British Crown.
Upon his return to Britain, Cook's reports inspired
the authorities to establish a penal colony in the
newly claimed territory. The new colony was
intended to alleviate over crowding in British prisons,
expand the British Empire, assert Britain's claim to
the territory against other colonial powers and
establish a British base in the global South."

" In 1788, Captain Arthur Phillip and 1,500 convicts, crew,
marines, and civilians arrived at Sydney Cove. In the 10
years that followed, it's estimated that the Indigenous
population of Australia was reduced by 90%. Those main
reasons for the dramatic population decline were:

1) The introduction of new diseases.
2) Settler acquisition of Indigenous lands.
3) Direct and violent conflict with the colonists."

There's more on the web including in Britannica but the
facts remain that the colonisation of Australia had a
devastating impact on Indigenous people who had lived
on the land for thousands of years and things began
to change with Captain James Cook's claiming possession
of the east coast of this country for the British Crown.

Hi there MHAZE...

Best of luck for your upcoming procedure, I'm sure you'll be walking out of Hospital on your own two feet after your quick recovery. OK! Bye for now.

Dear Foxy,

Can we just nail this one ? All cultures in the world are equally old, but some have moved on from hunting and gathering (often far more recently than people think).

If you mean the world's least-changing culture, the culture (or cultures) with the least change over the past 80,000 years (barring the necessary changes which must have occurred during the last Ice Age) - you might be closer to the mark. But I'm not sure what is so admirable about that.

The most enduring culture ? In such a harsh environment as Australia's, scrabbling for an existence, where survival was the be-all and end-all, with no real opportunity or happy confluence of circumstances to move from foraging to farming ? That might be true too.

As for population, I suspect that it would have taken a hammering during long droughts: no babies born, young children necessarily left to die, old and sick people dying off early, perhaps conflict between groups as they battled over scarcer resources.

So, perhaps in the best circumstances, it may have reached 750,000, but a long drought may have cut that back to as low as 250,000. So a mean of 500,000 sounds more realistic. For 500 language-groups, at an average of 1,000 each, that sounds reasonable.

Best wishes,

Joe

Well, let those who want to celebrate, celebrate & those who don't want to can stay home !

My earnest hope humanity can become one, reinforces Loudmouths view we are ALL about the same age
Is threatened every time some usually very small group, wants to change history
Cook, mum,s maiden name but no link, did find our country [maybe/almost certainly] other did it first
If you do not like the history learn from it
But look just at the history of our so called mother country, invaded over and again as is the case for just about every country

Dear Joe,

The information that I'm giving here has been taken
from various sources on the web. I'm merely quoting
what I've found.

The conclusion reached is that - "The conquest of
Aboriginal Nations provided a profound and lasting scar
on society that has often been more comfortable to ignore."

"It is a sign of maturity that such difficult issues are now
attempted at being confronted. A grand narrative of
spectacular economic growth does not drown out Black History
it was predicated upon it."

We're told that "Convict Australia is a story of sharp
contrasts. The colonial cocktail mixed coercion with
freedom, deprivation with opportunity, a state that was
both strong and weak, economic miracle with calamity, black
and white colonists annihilated property rights and
simultaneously lauded them."

"A self-styled civilised nation justified genocide. All
this resulted from penal policy but the policy was also
at the service of British imperial ambitions. The British
government had landed some 160,000 criminals in Australia's
convict colonies and commenced a process that dispossessed
perhaps one million Indigenous People. Persisting
consequences across the centuries make Australia's
colonial history a live political topic."

"A self-styled civilised nation justified genocide.
Foxy,
can you substantiate such a claim or is it simply something you've read written by some ignorant academic historian with no concept of then life & associated hardship ?

Individual,

Look up "Australian history - colonisation" on the
web. It's not hard to find.

Look up "Australian history - colonisation" on the
web.
Foxy,
I did but I can't find anything that is written by non-academics ! There's nothing online when Google "Australian History written by non-Academics".

Individual,

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/the-killing-times-the-massacres-of-aboriginal-people-australia-must-confront

And -

http://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/colonisation/

There's more on the web.

Foxy,
I will read through this but at first glance it looks very selective, no scene of Hell's Gate or shipwrecks. Right now I'm listening to an ABC radio programme about an Aboriginal chap called Fernando who clearly colours in more than just ochré.
Anyhow, I'll let you my view on this after reading.

Foxy,

You would also attribute all the good things as well to Cook?

Democratic Government, Medicare, equal rights for Aboriginal women, same-sex marriage, "sit down money". unemployment relief, McDonald's and KFC, Domino"s, post WWII migration from Europe, et al?

Is Mise,
An ABC story this arvo mentioned "the happy handsome people" before Europeans arrived. No mention of the much talked about interaction with the Maccassans in northern Australia long before the Europeans but, I'd imagine it won't be long before there'll be countless reports of the "friendly relationships". Anything is good in Aborigine Land as long as no Europeans, only their money & falling ar$e over backwards efforts to make things good are involved !

Hi Joe, thanks for joining in.

I'll deal with the wacky argument first; "the occupation or invasion or settlement of Australia was inevitable: no other imperialist, or would-be imperialist, power since the eighteenth century would have left Australia alone. That's how it is."

That's like a burglar standing up in court and offering the defence; "Well your Honour, his security was so lax that I just had to burgle the joint. Besides, there are so many burglars out there, if I didn't knock the place over, some other crook would have."...The Judge; "That defence Mr Cook just got you 5 years in jail!"

So the wacky argument won't fly, and is thrown out the window.

The complex argument about "Cook proclaimed the sovereignty of the British Crown over NSW". That is clear in my opening post, I don't understand your reference to Africa etc. In fact Cook went further, he claimed complete tenure of the east coast of Australia in the name of the British Crown. Cook's journal entry is clear, he was claiming all the land etc "freehold" for King George. Cook's not so secret orders specifically forbid him calming territory in the way he did. Cook's orders were detailed in that he was to search for the Great South Land. As the Great South Land did not exist, Cook did the next best thing, he "discovered" the east coast of Australia. However Cook went against orders in the way he claimed NSW for Britain.

cont

cont

From Cook's orders;

"You are likewise to observe the Genius, Temper, Disposition and
Number of the Natives, if there be any and endeavour by all proper means to cultivate a Friendship and Alliance with them, making them presents of such Trifles as they may Value inviting them to Traffick, and Shewing them every kind of Civility and Regard; taking Care however not to suffer yourself to be surprized by them, but to be always upon your guard against any Accidents.
You are also with the Consent of the Natives to take Possession of Convenient Situations in the Country in the Name of the King of Great Britain: Or: if you find the Country uninhabited take
Possession for his Majesty by setting up Proper Marks and Inscriptions, as first discoverers and possessors."

Cook was in a bit of a bind, his self interest told him he needed something to take home with a wow factor, such as a big discovery of land for Britain, and since there was no Great South Land to discover, the east coast of Australia would have to do. Cook had two choices, he could get the consent of the natives, as per orders, or he could declare the land uninhabited and thus claim it for Britain. Crooked Cook, despite the obvious habitation, chose the lie of land uninhabited to make his claim, and get him a big leg up back in England.

Foxy,
I started reading but I'm afraid it's all so one-sided, it smells too much of Guilt Industry selective history !
I simply have only 40 years of living in indigenous communities to base my feelings about all this on.

Something that has baffled historians and others for over 200 years. Cook was an expert mariner, probably the best in the world at the time. He understood the intricacies of 18th century sailing ships and their requirements. However, he gave a completely false report to the Admiralty regarding Botany Bay and its surrounds. As Arthur Phillip, almost to his peril found out 18 years later. I think Crooked Cook gave that false report on purpose in an attempt to boost his standing as a "discover" with those back in England.

He understood the intricacies of 18th century sailing ships and their requirements.
Paul1405,
I suppose that was the 1770 equivalent to a 2019 descendent of the invaders understanding all the intricacies of occupying Aboriginal land and the requirements of keeping on holding out their hand for a Public Service salary ?

"I simply have only 40 years of living in indigenous communities" A big call there Indy. Yet you have a total lack of understanding of aboriginal people and their problems. Amazing!

you have a total lack of understanding of aboriginal people and their problems.
Paul1405,
The real issue here is that I do know & that doesn't suit your agenda.
My remark re living in Australia was actually directed at the likes you but you realised that, hence you're staying stumm on it !
It's called hypocrisy !
Put your money where your mouth is & hand back the land you reside on to the Indigenous.
Or, at least leave it to them in your will. Now that would be a real understanding of aboriginal people and their problems.

Hi Foxy,

Had a read of your earlier link from 'The Conversation' Australia's post war shift away from the confines of "Mother England" and our embarrassing of a whole new world. Few of us today identify in any significant way with Britain, a bit like that best mate and constant companion in primary school, who by the time of high school has just become another face in the crowd, that's Britain for 21st century Australia.

Australia has become such a diverse and cosmopolitan society its almost impossible to identity, other than in general terms, what it is to be Australian. Little Johnny Howard thought it was wearing green and gold trackie dacks, and shouting "You beauty!", I think he got it wrong.

Foxy you mentioned Georg Forster, the son of Johann Reinhold Forster, two extremely notable gentlemen who accompanied Cook on his second voyage. J R Forster was probably the leading naturalist of his day. Forster snr had this to say about the killing of native people in the Pacific, by members of the Cook expedition;

"Accustomed to face an enemy, they breathe nothing but war. By force of habit even killing is become so much their passion, that we have seen instances during our voyage where they have expressed horrid eagerness to fire upon the natives on the slightest pretence."

Cook was a man of violence, he routinely had men flogged for slight infringements.

William Judge, 12 lashes, offensive language to an officer.
Henry Stephens, 12 lashes, refusing to eat fresh beef.
Thomas Dunster, 12 lashes, refusing to eat fresh beef.
Robert Anderson, 12 lashes, attempting to desert.

Many others.

The person who fired the fatal shot killing Te Maro; Nothing.

cont

cont

Back in my school days, I recall taking out the History prize one year, it was a copy of Manning Clark's 'A History of Australia'. The exploits of Captain Cook featured prominently in my studies.
I think I should return that prize, as I have since learnt I knew nothing of the history of Australia, at that time, and even less about James Cook the man. What I did know was mostly a collection of facts, and glossy rubbish. I suppose I knew a bit more of the facts and glossy rubbish than the next bloke, so I'm better to keep the prize (still got it).

Indy, I spent many years living in the proximity of Redfern (Australia's largest Aboriginal community). Does that qualify me as 40 years of living in indigenous communities? Must do.

What a lot of yabber over something that will definitely happen all over Australia, no matter what a few Marxist, self-hating dropkicks think.

Paul,

You're still confusing political sovereignty and land tenure. If you can find them, have a look at Prof. Hugh Kawharu's two books, on on the Treaty of Waitangi (i.e. re political sovereignty: in latin - 'res') and the other on Maori Land Tenure (in latin - 'terra'): notice that there isn't really much cross-over.

Living in an Aboriginal settlement (I'm avoiding the weasel-word 'community') can be very intense. Probably Individual, and certainly Big Nana, have been the one and only non-Aboriginal or non-Indigenous person in settlements for weeks or months at a time. As outsiders, they would have been conscious and puzzled every day over how and why people did this or that, trying to understand and put some 'crazy' behaviour into a meaningful context. Every day, and all day.

A bit different from living in or near the same suburb as Indigenous people. My father was born and lived in Redfern - so what ? My mum's father lived and died in Redfern - so what ? Did that make them authorities on Indigenous life ? I don't think so.

With respect, you would probably know far, far more about Maori life than about Australian Indigenous life. Immersion in one, and simple observation of the other, can be two very different activities.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I am concentrating on Cook, its clear from his journal entry that he was taking possession of "uninhabited" land, being the east coast of Australia. Cook well knew the land was inhabited, however being unsuccessful in following orders; "by all proper means to cultivate a Friendship and Alliance with them (Aboriginals)....with the Consent of the Natives to take Possession of Convenient Situations in the Country in the Name of the King of Great Britain"

British authority, obviously to expand the empire, conveniently dismissed those orders, and happy accepted possession as Cook had taken it. This is demonstrated by the fact 18 years later they sent a large colonising party under Governor Phillip. Phillip was given total control over all things, including the local inhabitants, he was free to grant land to anyone he chose, all in the name of the British monarch.

"conscious and puzzled every day over how and why people did this or that, trying to understand and put some 'crazy' behaviour into a meaningful context. Every day, and all day." Live in a houso' estate in the burbs of any city in Australia, and you might come to the same conclusion.

I have never claimed to have intricate knowledge of Australian Indigenous life. No one on this forum has such knowledge, such is its diversity that no one person could be so well versed to have such an understanding, and certainly not Indy!

Pleased with the quick practical response of the local Island/Maori community following the sudden death of a well respected Maori community leader this week. A quickly organised music gig yesterday, and a food and jumble sale, cultural entertainment, raffle etc, at the local hall today, all to raise money to help the family of the deceased man.

Paul,

That's how imperialism works. Do you think it would never have happened if the British had sailed away ? Of course it was inevitable - tragic, like it has been everywhere in that confrontation between militarily unequal societies, but inevitable.

So now, Indigenous people have pretty much full equal rights. Can you think of a right that they don't have ? Yes, let's not forget the past and flog the daylights out of all of those utter bastards who may have done something that we, being more virtuous, would never do.

But let's be mindful of the present and its potential. So, by 2026 or so, there could be a hundred thousand Indigenous university graduates, more or less on a par with Europe, and perhaps just a shade better than in New Zealand. Those Indigenous graduates will represent a quarter of the potential Indigenous work-force (and probably half of the actual work-force).

And it won't stop there: by 2035, there could be 150,000 graduates, perhaps a third of all adults in the cities, where people will be migrating to in the next few years, there won't be too many people left in remote areas by then. Close to 60 % of graduates will still be women: I don't know, for the life of me, what men are doing, since they're certainly not getting pregnant and dropping out of the potential work-force for that reason. Maybe there's another role for actually-working programs at universities - to find a way to attract more men into university.
Nah, it's more fun working on a thesis that all Dreaming stories are literally true, or that there were people on the upper Darling before whitefellas, yes indeed.

The worst disservice we can do in relation to Indigenous people is keep them convinced that they are eternal victims, pitiable, powerless. I'm not interested in any of that any more.

Joe

Dear Paul,

Thank You for your interesting posts and the information
they contained about Cook. I'm learning a great deal
as a result of this discussion.

The subject of Australia's colonisation exemplifies
the argument of those who insist that there is no
such thing as "objective history."

The historian can establish that an act took place on a
certain day, but this by historical standards constitutes only
chronology.

The moment a historian begins to look critically at motivation,
circumstances, context, or any other such consideration
the product becomes unacceptable for one or another camp of
readers.

Some people are more interested
in condemnation than in explanation.
Explanations seem tatamount to sympathising and excusing.
While others may be in total denial, brushing things
aside, and again excusing.

And so we have the case of the colonisation of our
country and the various emotive points of view involved.
Making it a hot political topic.

That is why the Uluru Statement from the Heart - asks
for truth in our past history to be told not denied.

As I stated in an earlier post. The celebration of
Captain Cook's landing can go ahead provided that our
Indigenous People are included and shown respect.
It is a question of balance. And surely we as a nation
are mature enough to be able to do that?

Even The Guardian polls show that only 6% of people whine and moan about Australia Day and other celebrations of our history and heritage.

Hi Paul,

Just to add to my claim that Indigenous people here are participating at higher rates than Maori in New Zealand, here's a useful file:

http://www.universitiesnz.ac.nz/sector-research-issues-facts-and-stats/building-ma%CC%84ori-and-pasifika-success/building-m%C4%81ori-success

In Australia, Indigenous student numbers have more than doubled since 2008 while Maori numbers have risen only by 29 %. There would currently be more than 20,000 Indigenous students, while in 2018 there were 24,000 Maori university students. The Maori population is a good deal higher than the Indigenous population here. And yes, as in NZ, Indigenous women are participating at about twice the rate of men.

Okay, participation is about the same. But the Indigenous rate of change is much faster than the Maori rate. It's worth remembering that Maori have been attending university since the 1890s, with Peter Buck, Maui Pomare, Apirana Ngata all graduating back then. But the efforts seem to be slackening :(

Just saying.

Cheers,

Joe

I spent many years living in the proximity of Redfern
Paul1405,
We hand a handful of "Redfern Aborigines" come up North over the years because the positions were advertised as "Indigenous Applicants are encouraged to apply".
Well, none lasted more than a few weeks. As I was in a position to ask them why the decision to leave the Community, the one common answer was "there's nothing here" ! They simply had no interest in the natural beauty of the place, they wanted Bars & Stadiums.
There are more Indigenous from up here down there so I find it very difficult to believe that the Europeans have so destroyed their idyllic natural existence. All those moving South are proof that that Fabel is just that !
Now that the the older relatives are gradually departing up here, many Indigenous born down South are now moving in here to claim "their Land". The majority aren't welcome by their own kind because they have no affinity with living on the land. All they appear to achieve is social division by exploiting their one & only drop of indigenous blood in their veins. They're the ones making it hard for the Indigenous, not the descendants of the European settlers.
Such as the critics of Cook who live on indigenous land unlike the Navigator who was only here for a couple of months 250 years ago !

In Australia, Indigenous student numbers have more than doubled since 2008
Loudmouth,
I assume that includes those who identify as indigenous with more caucasian/non-indigenous genes than Aborigine ?

Foxy,

Was James Cook responsible for Medicare?

Hi Foxy,

"That is why the Uluru Statement from the Heart - asks for truth in our past history to be told not denied."

The old saying 'The victors write the history', could not be truer than in the case of Cook, and the British exploration and colonisation of the Pacific in general. Joe refuses to discuss past history at all, preferring to retreat into an irrelevant blind corner. True to form Joe constantly regurgitates in parrot fashion the one and only shining light, modern day aboriginal tertiary education figures. Imagine a discussion with Joe about Japanese imperialism of WWII, I'm sure he would only want to discuss motor cars, transistor radios and colour TV's.

"The celebration of Captain Cook's landing can go ahead provided that our Indigenous People are included and shown respect. It is a question of balance. And surely we as a nation are mature enough to be able to do that?

I do not believe there is any substantive evidence to answer that question in the affirmative. Well not right now, both sides of politics are not ready to truly embrace full inclusion as yet, and that is sad.

Put it this way; How would Australians feel if on 22nd February 2021 the Japanese PM should come to Darwin to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the bombing of that city by his country in 1941. He could deliver a speech extolling the great benefits Japan bestowed on Australia, motor cars, transistor radios and colour TV's, all before unveiling a 20 foot high statue of Emperor Hirohito in the centre of town. As the enraged mob chase him down the street he could yell out in Japanese "You're forgetting about the cars, radios and TV's we gave you...all of us lets by-gones be by-gones, someone please save my arse!

Paul1404,
Way too much of a play on emotions. The Japanese did not provide any welfare for starters.
Also, you failed & my guess is, deliberately to suit your heinous agenda, to mention how the Aborigines would have fared under Japanese occupation.
I'll ask you here to give us all an answer; why are you perpetually tearing at scabs ? Are you one ? Why do you so vehemently turn your efforts to disunity ? What is your objection to acknowledge that good has been done for a very long time & is continued being done.
Why do you not support harmony in society ?

I once lived and worked on Francis Greenway land on the West of Sydney and read the stories of the farm. Aboriginals could live and wander on the land to gather food. However when they began killing the cattle and burning the stored hay the farm hands had to take action against them. There was not indiscriminate murdering of the native population.

My ancestors assisted in building homes and having them work on the farms and share in products produced on the farm. They retained their fishing in the river that run by the farm, using their traps.

Aboriginal life today far surpasses the life of the early settlers, and Cook and Philip should be remembered as opening up a new life for all Australians and allowing the English culture to unite the tribes and preserve their language and culture.

hi Indy,

I do not support your idea of harmony, which means blanking out history, or presenting a sanitised version of events. People like you are not in favour of equality, you favour a perpetual state of subservience for our indigenous people. According to you they need to know their place, they need to show gratitude for the great benefits people like you have bestowed upon them. Look at that phoney character you invented, that meek and mild elderly old aboriginal, he suits your narrative, as he would be beholding to you and your kindly gang of bigots, he would show you gratitude at every opportunity.

BTW, when you were in that Aboriginal Community for 40 years, did you go around blasting away with all those bigoted anti aboriginal statements you like to make on the forum? I bet not.

You ask for conjecture regarding a non event concerning Japanese.

Dear Paul,

There's no escaping the fact that Captain Cook is
a polarising national symbol, representing possession
and dispossession.

This anniversary of Cook's landing may give us much to
reflect upon but it also highlights the need for
investment in new symbols with colonial legacies
and shared futures.

which means blanking out history, or presenting a sanitised version of events.
Paul1405,
That is as wrong as your agenda !

Paul,
You are a bloody fool. After some discussion with Joe you suddenly tear strips off him for his joy at the figures showing aboriginals attending Uni is increasing. Are you unhappy that the figures are higher here than the NZ ones?

I can see no justifacation for you suddenly attacking Joe. Maybe you are disappointed that he does not share your hatred for all things British and Australian.

Anyway I expect there will be ceremony to celebrate Cook's discovery and, no doubt, there will be aboriginal participation where someone plays a didgerido, a smoking ceremony and some dancers hop around in their traditional red nappies. Its ironic that this was brought about by a joke of some TV actors. Cannot see the whole thing costing $50 mil though, maybe it will be given to the aboriginal dancers like everything else has been. To give a British flavour there may be a reenactment with a couple of actors in costume. I can see the natives shaking their spears now. The little kids will be impressed.

Like someone else said 'If you don't like it stay at home'.

Me, I would prefer a modern memorial unveiling, with blokes in suits
and women in modern attire. An aboriginal bloke telling us how lucky we all are that the British were the ones to settle here. How many blokes with aboriginal blood fought with our forces and were decorated and gave us Joes figures about Uni attendance. Some things to celebrate!

Of course we should, & so should the aborigines.

Just like the Mouri, they live a damn sight better, longer & healthier lives than they would if Australia & NZ had never been discovered. In fact they would still be wandering around naked throwing rocks & sticks at animals, trying to get something to eat.

They should give thanks every morning & night that the white man arrived when he did.

Hasbeen ole man even aboriginals in fine costume are still throwing rocks at native animals, it is inbred culture.

Hi Individual,

Your statement:

'I assume that includes those who identify as indigenous with more caucasian/non-indigenous genes than Aborigine ?'

Down south, yes, people with Aboriginal ancestry, living in small towns with their brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers who were regarded amongst themselves, and by local non-Aboriginal people, and by cousins and uncles and aunties, as Aboriginal, quite unsurprisingly considered themselves to be Aboriginal. They forgot to carry around their/your colour-card at all times, to check out their relations whenever they met them, to see on what side of the Aboriginal/non-Aboriginal divide they fell on. Neither did white fellas carry around such cards, just in case they accidentally fell over that divide somehow.

From birth, people down this way took/take their identity for granted. Their mothers were Aboriginal on the whole. All their siblings were too. Their cousins and uncles were too. Their grandparents were too. Non-Aboriginal neighbours took it for granted. So what are they expected to think of themselves ?

Like it or not, Individual, Aboriginal people in the south can, surprisingly, consider themselves to be Aboriginal. They may not have much, or even any, traditional culture, they may not know their ngatjis or their country except in the most general way, and may know only the one or two hundred kitchen-words of their ancestors' language. But they will always think of themselves as nothing but Aboriginal. That's how it is. There are, after all, different ways by which people can define themselves.

Nobody much down this way would give a stuff about your fractionating and colour-carding of them. THEY define themselves, you don't.

Joe

Prof. Tracy Ireland discussed the fact
as described in an article in The Age -
that -

Surely the 250th anniversary of Captain Cook's
landing should not be about sanctifying or
demonising him.

If we're going to celebrate the landing then
can't we acknowledge his naval achievements together
with highlighting the 80,000 plus years of
Indigenous culture which undermined his unenlightened
18th century presumption of "Terra Nulius" .

Cook can be a meaningful historical symbol after all.

It's simply a question of balance.

There's a variety of opinions in letters written to The
Age newspaper on the topic that may be of interest:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/james-cook-there-can-be-a-balance-struck-in-our-history-20180514-h101br.html

Some celebrate Christmas, some don't, some celebrate Naidoc week, some don't. some celebrate mardi gra, some see it as perversion. No one is forcing anyone to celebrate anything. If you don't want to celebrate Cookie don't. Talk about first world problems. Cookie is to blame because without him young girls would be for uncles, people would be dying of hunger and there would be no sit down money. We would be a third of fifth world country.

Dear Hasbeen,

Yuo write;

"They should give thanks every morning & night that the white man arrived when he did."

Absolute tosh. The entire aboriginal population of Victoria was reduced to a few hundred within 30 years. Early settlers talked about how physically fit, how intelligent and how gifted with humour they were. 'Superior in fact to most classes of Englishmen'. This is while the vast majority of the English race where living desperate lives of poverty, starvation and crime in rat and disease infested cities like London.

Actually it was not Captain Cook who brought this
country out of being a cultural backwater.
A study of history would help.

THEY define themselves, you don't.
Loudmouth,
Can Non-Aborigines then define where their Tax Dollars & wasted Good Will go ?

Paul,

In your OP you said,
""...I now once more hoisted English Coulers and in the Name of His Majesty King George the Third took posession of the whole Eastern Coast from … Latitude [38° South] down to this place by the Name of New South Wales together with all the Bays, Harbours Rivers and Islands situate upon the said coast..."

Cooks intentions were clear, as far as he was concerned Australia was British, and that was that..."

As he took possession of the East Coast how did he take possession of the whole of Australia for Britain?

Which flag do you think that he hoisted, the English Flag or the Union Flag, he says that he hoisted English colours so I presume that as a ship's captain he knew which flag was which.

Paul,

You get stuck into me for putting together historical material for a web-site: www.firstsources.info , fifteen thousand pages of it, and then claim that I ignore history. Maybe kale smoothies and avocado soften the brain.

I'll say it again: tragedies and atrocities happened in the past. In the past. Let's recognise them when they can be validated with evidence, commemorate them, etc., and move on. And maybe praise what Indigenous people are doing right.

I'm happy to discuss any aspect of our history that you like, with evidence if possible. Which bit am I ignoring ? Cook's voyage up the east coast, where, as he wrote somewhere, that he was never out of sight of the smoke from camp-fires, which seems to be an indication that he certainly recognised that people were living here ? That bit ?

Actually, on the subject of 'terra nullius', I don't think that anybody back then and until recently, ever claimed that the continent was empty of people - if that's how half-wits define 'terra nullius'. Actually it's more of a legal-technical term, meaning land over which people don't seem to have a system of ownership, by which they seem to mean a system of sale and purchase of land. It seems to go with 'res nullius' - groups which don't seem to have a recognisable system of government and sovereignty.

Aboriginal people here - apart from the vast numbers engaged in farming, Paul - were often hunters and gatherers, roaming over the land collecting food. Europeans had come across such foragers before of course, in western parts of what is now the US, and in southern South America, and perhaps in parts of India and a few isolated parts of Africa where people were overwhelmingly farmers and pastoralists, and had been for thousands of years. But Europeans always had trouble working out how people living as foragers related to the land as proprietors rather than users, who was the responsible person to negotiate purchases, etc.. Gosh, if only more of them had been farmers .....

Enough history for you ?

Joe

Individual,

"Can Non-Aborigines then define where their Tax Dollars & wasted Good Will go ?"

Yes, of course, I wish they would. I hope that we get a government which strictly monitors how the taxpayers' money is spent in Indigenous affairs, by demanding that they set down their realistic goals, year by year, and submitting all organisations' activities to scrutiny, promptly scrapping them if they can't demonstrate that they are achieving what they are being paid for.

In other words, paying by results - and withdrawing all payments to organisations which aren't achieving much at all. That should save maybe $ 32.5 billion, out of the $ 33 billion sloshing around Indigenous affairs each year.

Why do you equate paler Aboriginal people, or southern Aboriginal people, with corruption and incompetence ? If anything, it's pretty general across the Indigenous scene, as far as I can see.

corruption and incompetence ? If anything, it's pretty general across the Indigenous scene, as far as I can see.
Loudmouth,
Well, I can't argue or dispute your experiences but my observations led me to believe that those of extremely little & in some cases no Aborigine visible genes are simply out-voicing those who are clearly of a greater percentage & clearly visible Aborigine heritage.
I don't know as many of those than I do of the former but the ones I had the opportunity to mix with aren't as divisive as the latter.
The Aborigine gene-deprived have pulled the wool over the eyes of the wider Australian community very successfully but due to their lack of management skills & or corruption far too much Goodwill & resources have been wasted that could have otherwise made huge positive differences in the living standard of Aborigine & non-Aborigine Australians. As I really shouldn't have to point out we're talking Billions !

Dear Paul,

Lowitja O'Donoghue a Pitjantjatjara Yankunytjatjara
woman is one of the most revered public figures in Australia.
She is a former chair of the now disbanded Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander Commission and in 1992 was the first
Aboriginal Australian to address the United Nations General
Assembly:

" Since the 1967 Referendum, Australia has been living a lie.
It has patted itself on the back as a fair country. One that
treats its citizens equally and especially protects the
vulnerable. Don't get me wrong. I am proud to have helped
to secure the "Yes" vote that recognised us as citizens and
more than mere flora and fauna. It was important. But it
pains me to know that the Constitution still contains a
potentially discriminatory power, which can be used by the
Commonwealth against our people or, indeed any other race."

"And that it still lacks any explicit recognition of us
or our place as the First Australians. Of course our
founding document was framed in a different era. Many say we
cannot judge it by today's standards. Perhaps not, but we can
bring it into line with those standards. This would be good
not only for our own heads and our hearts, as per advice
from the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of
Psychiatrists, but also for the nation's soul."

The rest of the speech is available on the web.

Food for thought.

Captain Cook Day 7th November, would be a great day to celebrate one of history's great mariners, explorers, map makers, Cook's achievements are legendary. In my opinion landing at Botany Bay and then claiming the east coast of New Holland for Britain in the way he did was not a great achievement. Cook was a man with short comings, he had great success, he also had some failures. Simply to paint Cook as an historical figure of nothing but pure greatness, is blatantly wrong.

The killing of James Cook by the Hawaiians, what went wrong? In no way do I condone Cook's murder, or the killing of the 4 Marines, or the 15 or so Hawaiians at the same time. However Cook was as much to blame for his own death, and that of the others, as any of the Hawaiians were.

Foxy,

Would she be of one of these families?

"There are several completely different O'Donoghue families in Ireland.

(1) The Ó Donnchadha of Cashel, from the Eóganacht Chaisil, related to the O'Sullivans, MacCarthys and O'Callaghans. They descend from Donnchad mac Cellacháin, King of Munster.
(2) The Ó Donnchadha of Desmond, from the Eóganacht Raithlind, related to the O'Mahonys, prominent in County Kerry and referred to as "O'Donoghue Mór." They descend from Donnchadh mac Domhnall.
(3) The Ó Donnchadha of Osraige, from the Clann Conla, related to the Mac Giolla Phádraig dynasty ("the Fitzpatricks") and produced some kings of Osraige, prominent in County Kilkenny and commonly anglicised as Dunphy. They descend from Donnchad mac Gilla Pátraic.
(4) The Ó Donnchadha of Uí Maine, from the Uí Maine, related to the O'Kellys, prominent in County Galway and County Roscommon."

"Donoghue or O'Donoghue is an anglicized form of the Irish language surname Ó Donnchadha or Ó Donnchú.

Etymology:
The name means "descendant of Donnchadh", a personal name composed of the elements donn "brown-haired [man]" and cath "battle". Spelling variations (which include an initial "Ó" or omit it) include Donoghue, Donaghoe, Donoughe, Donaho, Donahoe, Donough, Donahue, Donahow, Doneghoe, Donehue, Donighue, Donihue, Donoho, Donohoe, Donahugh,etc."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Donoghue

Marvellous thing, culture.

the black arm band are always going to mourn (fakely) the achievements of the British. So why pander to them.

Is Mise,

Yes culture certainly is interesting - especially
that of this Australian of the year -

Lowitja O'Donoghue was born in a remote Aboriginal
community. She never knew her white father and at the
age of 2 was taken from her mother who she did not
see for 33 years. Her story is quite amazing as are
her achievements as an Aboriginal woman.

You should look up her biography. It's worth a read.
And is educational.

Is Mise,

Lowitja's father was named O'Donoghue. He was a station worker up beyond Oodnadatta, living with an Yankuntjatjara Aboriginal woman from the early twenties until the mid-thirties, when the drought really started to bite. He was an O'Donoghue. His children were O'Donoghues.

Put out of work, he had to go up to Queensland to find work, while his wife would have had to go back to her home country and face the 'difficulties' if she took her four or five kids with her. So they put their kids into the Oodnadatta home, known as Colebrook, and later to the Area School at Quorn. O'Donoghue didn't know, but WE know now how long that drought lasted, and if we had any empathy, we would understand why he didn't return.

Later Lowitja trained as a qualified nurse and served as matron of am Adelaide Hills hospital. One of her sisters qualified as a teacher, with one of SA's premiers remembering her as a beloved teacher. They were O'Donoghues.

Lowitja was a good friend of my wife's and I'm very proud of that. There aren't many Indigenous leaders with her skills and integrity.

Joe

Thanks Foxy for that insight into an outstanding Australian Lowitja O'Donoghue. And Joe thanks for the details about her father, and the hard times of the twenties and thirties that people had to endure.

Often the sceptics will pull out the "you can't be Indigenous with a name like "Patrick O'Shannessy" you must be Norwegian! I don't know if it happened in Australia but in my wife's case, at the age of five attending a small country school, she was stripped of her Maori name and an English name was literally pinned onto her dress by the teacher. She could hardly speak a word of English, the native language was spoken at home. Totally confused and bewildered, went home with her big sister who told Mum "XXXX has been given a new name XXXX by the teacher" her Mum simple said in Maori "From now on we will call you the English name, so you get used to it at school." her maiden surname is similar, an adopted English version, and her tribal name. Her passport carries her Maori first name which is two words (hard for bank computers to enter into the system ha ha) and her English surname, she has never bothered to change from her maiden name.

cont

cont

Joe, I do give you a bit of stick now and then, hope you don't take it too personally, I'm just as happy to take it from you at other times, and I deserve it.

Back to the "Cookie Monster", as you know I have said a thousand times the modern day tertiary education of aboriginal children, and you have all the figures, is the one beautiful flower growing in an otherwise rather weedy garden. What I don't see is its relevance to Cook and the celebration planned for 28th April 2020. Like the Ned Kelly myth there has been a purposely created Captain Cook myth by white Australia, and its been perpetuated for the last 200 odd years. Trying in this discussion to enlighten others about Cook, and what he was really like. Don't get me wrong, Cook was a great man in many ways, but he also had a down side, which has generally been hidden for a very long time.

p.s Some here want to determine aboriginality from a "Dulux" colour chart, Were the aborigines on missions, Mission Brown colour? Then there's the "external genes" what are they, maybe they are confusing genes with jeans.

Some here want to determine aboriginality from a "Dulux" colour chart,
Paul1405,
Tell us please, at what stage is a mixed Race person one Race or another. I personally hope that the whole of humanity just becomes one race & be done with it. The Aborigines are well on their way of achieving this except as they get lighter in complexion the more they claim to be Aborigine.
Surely, there's a tipping point where a human is more of one Race than another & therefore is a member of the race of which they have more genes ? That's way I see it, how do you ?
The feeling of being of a preferred race is only dependent on the amounts of compensation/privileges/Welfare associated. If, for example there was a system whereby we're all classed as humans instead of Race the whole show would take on different dimensions.
Sort of like refugees travelling though 10 countries to get to the one with the best welfare system ! It really is simply a matter of lack of integrity. And, yes there are way too many Caucasians who fit that description too.

Individual,

Surely it depends on how and by whom you're raised ? If your mother is Aboriginal, then chances are you'll assume you are too. That's reinforced by your siblings and uncles and aunts and cousins and grandparents. And by non-Aboriginal neighbours.

In fact, once the label is attached, colour isn't all that important. I recall, up on one settlement, the adolescent boys went through a phase of distinguishing between 'black holes' and 'red holes'. Being rather obnoxious, I was called a 'red hole' for a short time, to which, of course, I would answer 'black hole'. Then I realised that some of the kids were as pale as I was - and no-one seemed to notice. Their mothers were Aboriginal; end of.

Down this way (and I suppose I'm talking about over the last fifty years), children in a family might be all colours, and simply not notice it. Of course, this was before the days of well-funded organisations, which have attracted all manner of frauds and power-seekers - of all colours. In fact, down this way, if you look real, real Aborigine, you're pretty much guaranteed of getting a good position, with few duties, even if you have no qualifications. Both Indigenous and non-Indigenous organisations need Jackies for their PR.

Joe

One of Cook's reasons for sailing to the southern hemisphere was to observe the transit of Venus, a very rare event, or events that "....occur in a pattern that generally repeats every 243 years, with pairs of transits eight years apart separated by long gaps of 121.5 years and 105.5 years".

An important task. What most people probably don't realise is - he stuffed it up; got wrong.

Lighten up folks. Cook was an ordinary man doing he was told to do, not always perfectly. He and his kind were the equivalents of modern astronauts. He is part of our history, and he will be celebrated.

Somebody was always going to discover and claim the continent for a European power. The aboriginal industry and it's noisy activists should be thankful that was Cook and not a Frenchman, Spaniard or Portuguese, the other big explorers of the day. Some historians say that the China was sniffing around much earlier. I'm sure the moaners and groaners wouldn't have liked them settling here. Would they even have survived to be complaining into the 21st Century?

As for you pale-faced Lefties, don't blame Cook: blame your own families who weren't forced to come here. Very few of you descend from the convicts who had no choice. Most of us are products of deliberate colonisation by ordinary people.

Stan Grant, the Indigenous Affairs editor for the
ABC and Chair of Indigenous Affairs at Charles
Sturt University and winner of the Walkley Award
in 2015 sums things up so beutifully when he writes:

" A nation is a story:
a never-ending story of us. It is the story of a land
steeped in time, awaiting people from many other lands,
who in time will call themselves Australians. It begins with
the first footsteps taken tens of millennia ago, and
continues in the newest-born child of this land. It will
live on in those still to come. The bones of our ancestors are
buried in this land. They are the bones of black and
white. They are dust, the very land itself. When the
political debates of our age are past, there will always be
our country. Our challenge - all of us - is to live here
and call it home."

" The first people touched this land as
our continent was being formed.
They came in boats when humanity had yet to cross an
open sea. Here they formed a civilisation that continues to
this day. Their birthright has never been ceded."

"Those people live still in their descendants. We enter into
their heritage and respect their traditions. We honour too
those who have come from other lands and carry with them their
cultures and faiths. Though our bonds may strain, we seek to
live together in harmony. Though we may disagree, we find no
enemy among us. We cherish the foundations of our nation, and
our rule of law and democracy."

"We are all equal in dignity. Opportunity is for all. Worth
should be measured not in privilege. By our efforts we
prosper. In a land of plenty, we care for those without. From
the first footsteps to the most recent arrival, this land is
our home."

"Here, together, we form a new people bound not by the chains
of history but committed to a future forged together."

Hear, Hear!

Cook was a man of his times, & today's petals have no right to judge him.

However wouldn't it be great if we could reincarnate him, make him a magistrate, & sit him on the bench in judgement of these extinction rebellion clowns.

Twelve of the best, with the cat o nine tails just might bring them back to earth, & respecting their betters.

From Lowitja's speech, "....it pains me to know that the Constitution still contains a potentially discriminatory power, which can be used by the Commonwealth against our people or, indeed any other race"

Yep, let's get rid of the power from the constitution so all races share the same rights. Furthermore let's have no inclusions added to the constitution regarding race.

Stan says, ".."Those people live still in their descendants. We enter into their heritage..." Couch it as he might, his words have teeth. Any notion of heritage comes from all Australians that came before us, not a select few.

No treaty, no sovereignty, no special voice. As time passes the wisdom of holding ground on this will become ever more apparent. We'd be inviting a lawyers' picnic lasting centuries.

Hypothetically, how would accepting these demands appear 40,000 years from now?

Dear Hasbeen,

According to journalist Paul Daley - Captain
Cook's legacy is complex but whether white Australia
likes it or not he is emblematic of violence and
oppression. The following link explains:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2019/oct/03/captain-cooks-legacy-is-complex-but-whether-white-australia-likes-it-or-not-he-is-emblematic-of-violence-and-oppression

'Hypothetically, how would accepting these demands appear 40,000 years from now?'

they sound very silly to any thinking person today Luciferase. To many people in the industry might have to get a real job if they can't fight for this nonsense.

Luciferase,

Hopefully it won't take another 40,000 years
to rise above our past.

Another piece of good news in Indigenous education:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-03/miraculous-indigenous-education-rates-complete-year-12-qld/10069150

In short, this ABC article shows that, according to ABS figures, Indigenous students in Queensland are completing Year 12 at almost the same rate as non-Indigenous students.

Next stop: university.

A game-changer.

Joe

Dear Joe,

A game changer?

Nah. Not quite.. But a good step in the right direction,
for sure.

Surely it depends on how and by whom you're raised ?

Loudmouth,
Well, in general I'd think that to be the case but on the other hand I have heard of quite a number of cases where people said they weren't aware that they were Aborigine until they were told. Where does that leave the notion of that special inner feeling of being Aborigine ?
Would you agree/disagree that there would not be as many people identifying as Aborigine if it were not for the privileges associated with being or at least claiming to be indigenous to Australia ?
I am of the opinion that the Aborigines should be & have already been massively compensated for having much of their land colonised but they should also not dismiss the Goodwill of so many born & living here now. Another question have asked here quite a number of times is, I would like the Aborigines tell us once & for all which Nationality of migrants they would prefer settling here. So far it is unanswered !

Individual,

Read my previous post on page 18 where I quote
Stan Grant. He answers your question quite
clearly.

Foxy,
Only some Journo's sucking up to the Gravy train.

Dear Foxy,

I live in hope :) Currently, Indigenous university graduate numbers (i.e. at the end of last year) are somewhere between 48,000 (federal Ed. Dept) and 62,000 (ABS Census extrapolation), with another 3-4,000 each year, increasing at about 8 % p.a., or doubling in nine years. Around 35 % of under-grads go onto post-graduate study. I keep thinking that surely those rates of increase have to slow down, but they don't.

So there could be between 70,000 (Ed. Dept) and 100,000 (ABS) Indigenous university graduates by 2026; and between 95,000 and 130,000 by the early 2030s. By then, as in the rest of Australian society, around half of all urban Indigenous women will be university graduates.

Regards,

Joe

Individual,

No. Stan Grant is Indigenous Affair editor. and Chair
of Indigenous Affairs. He's more than just "some
journo."He also happens to be indigenous.
And you were the one asking for an Indigenous point
of view. But of course I should have known better.
all you're interested in is slagging - not answers.
Good luck with that. And speaking of a "gravy train"
which one were/are you on?

which one were/are you on?
Foxy,
The one with the clear windows, not the rose-tinted ones !

surely those rates of increase have to slow down, but they don't.
Loudmouth,
Use the same funding modes as for non-indigenous & the numbers will drop dramatically !

ttbn, I have to take you to task and defend Cookie Boy; "What most people probably don't realise is - he stuffed it (observation of the transit of Venus) up; got wrong."

Firstly, James Cook was not in charge of the observation, nothing I have read said he took any part it was a matter for the 'Scientific Gentlemen', Charles Green was the astronomer, Cook may have had a casual interest and a bit of a look, I don't know. Secondly the only problem they, the Scientific Gentlemen (as Cook refereed to them) encountered with the observation, although it was a clear sunny day, tropic haze prevented a super accurate timing of the transit to be obtained. Green died of dysentery on the voyage home. The Tahitian observations when published by the Royal Society the credit was GREEN C and Cook J. Green was to be paid the huge sum of 200 guineas for his work. The first part of Cook's orders was to convey the Scientific Gentlemen safely and expeditiously to Tahiti for the transit event.

Cook's first voyage was a semi private venture. The total cost of purchasing the Whitby Cat, a coastal coal ship, 'The Earl of Penbroke' (renamed 'Endeavour) its re-rigging and fit out was paid for by The Admiralty, about 8,000 pounds in total. Then Joseph Banks on behalf of the Royal Society paid 10,000 pounds for the venture.

BTW, at the same time as the Tahiti observation was taking place the Royal Society had four or five other transit observations been performed in other parts of the world. The whole exercise was to determine the distance from the Earth to the Sun, for that end it was very successful.

BBTW, The Royal Society wanted Alexander Dalrymple to lead the expedition, The Admiralty wanted a navy man, and insisted on James Cook.

Individual,

As far as I know, ABSTUDY (if it still exists) provides much the same fortnightly income as AUSTUDY. Yes, there may be a few little supplementary payments, for books, and travel back to remote settlements.

Joe

Individual,

As you say, " ... I have heard of quite a number of cases where people said they weren't aware that they were Aborigine until they were told. Where does that leave the notion of that special inner feeling of being Aborigine ?"

I don't think there is that 'inner feeling' any more than people from other groups have 'inner feelings' about their ancestry. No, nothing special.

"Would you agree .... that there would not be as many people identifying as Aborigine if it were not for the privileges associated with being or at least claiming to be indigenous to Australia ?"

Of course: there are many, many frauds, often in high places, in Indigenous affairs. And of course, many more are employed in no-work jobs in thousands of no-results Indigenous organisations. So yes, of course there would be fewer if so much money wasn't slopping around.

But given your antipathy to Indigenous higher education, where do YOU think education should stop for Indigenous people ? Year 7 ? Year 10 ? Trades only ?

Fortunately, your hands are not on the policy levers.

Joe

Individual,

When I asked you which gravy train were/are you on?
You replied - "the one with clear windows, not the
rose-tinted one."

Well, clear windows aren't of much use to you if
you've pulled down the shades.

a few little supplementary payments
Loudmouth,
I like your sense of humour ! ;-)

where do YOU think education should stop for Indigenous people ? Year 7 ? Year 10 ? Trades only ?
Loudmouth,
That's just a silly quip ! Of course I don't mean that !
I'd like to see merit-based education rather than quota based ! By that I mean that is is not acceptable for Aborigine students to pass with the same poor results as the countless non-indigenous do too !

Foxy,

Last word trolls are a bane to online forums !

What a cheek, down on aboriginal welfare, good old Indy well and truly has his snout in that welfare trough. The same bloke said the last pension rise wouldn't get him another schooner down at gods waiting room. Some people!

Individual,

Now you're simply baiting.

Give a man anonymity and he'll
become his true self.

This is yet another example of cultural whinge.

The Greens and other snowflakes will always find something to whine about anything achieved in history because it brings the giants of history down to their pathetic level.

The reality is that anyone involved in forging nations has more than a little of the bastard in them, and focusing on the minor negatives whilst ignoring the huge positives.

Australia with all its warts is one of the finest countries in the world and without giants such as Cook would be a morass like PNG.

Shadow, still with that conservative imperialism dibble that Liberal Party supports espouse at every opportunity.Time you and the rest of the forums conservatives moved into the 20th century, the 21st would be asking too much. Will a 100 year jump in thinking be hard for you to handle.

A lot of words wasted about something that is going to happen anyway.

Aboriginal cultural history, XX,000 of years of stagnation until Cook came along.

An article in today's Australian, page 29, is proposing a separate Indigenous University. At first I thought it was a reprint of an article from forty years ago, when I recall this idea was being discussed, but no, the author cites data from the last decade or so.

Then I thought that the author was some young kid with one of those perennial bright ideas. But no, he seems to be head of some organisation.

An amazingly ignorant man: he talks about setting up support programs at universities, when they have been around for nearly fifty years now: the Aboriginal Task force was set up in SA in 1973; James Cook and Mt Lawley campus set up standard teaching-course support programs in 1977; the SACAE in 1978; and pretty much all other universities by 1990.

Of course, this poor half-wit means a university with specifically Indigenous-focussed courses. But they have been withering away over the past twenty years, and now, perhaps fewer than 5 % of all of the twenty thousand Indigenous students in universities would be studying in such courses.

In fact, the vast majority of Indigenous students have shunned such courses: when an Arts degree in Aboriginal Studies was set up here in SA in 1984, it attracted two or three Indigenous students each year but after about 1990, only one a year, sometimes none at all. It was wound down in around 2010. In fact, there are now no specifically Indigenous-focussed courses in SA except the Anangu Teacher Education Program, set up in 1984 or so, and (unless it has been merged) an Ass. Dip. Music course at Adelaide University.

[TBC]

There's a difference between 'cultural' and 'technological' apart from the spelling of the word....but then a metal retard wouldn't know that....and to live 'XX,000 of years' in the manner as existed, clean air, pristine water, no pollution and a balanced ecology....must have been real hard on them.
Today it's called Utopia

Should Australians Celebrate Cook's Landing?.... why not?.... it wouldn't be the first time thievery was celebrated

[continued]

The article cites ludicrous figures, in the usual attempt to downplay Indigenous participation. It lumps ALL university students together, including the 30 % of overseas students, in order to minimise the proportion of Indigenous participation (which is well over 2 %) - and then uses the latest, also ludicrous figure, of eight hundred thousand Indigenous people across Australia to minimise that participation. [So the Indigenous population has doubled in the last 25 years, while the numbers of babies born, adjusted for Census inflation, has stayed much the same for a couple of decades ?]

Even using Census figures, close to half of all Indigenous young people are now commencing university studies: in 2017, 7,297 commenced award-level university study (Ed. Dept figures), compared to an average age-group population of 20-25 year-olds of about fourteen thousand, around half of all young people. The article claimed a far lower proportion, and went on about many families not even having a child who had reached secondary school. Meanwhile in Queensland, the Year 12 completion rate for Indigenous students is within cooee of the non-Indigenous rate - not bad, for a state with a large remote population. So perhaps you can see why I thought the article was a blast from the past.

Batchelor College has been going for close to forty years, specifically for Indigenous students, with specifically-Indigenous courses, but had only seventeen students in 2016 out of 17,400 across the country. Hardly a ringing endorsement of Indigenous support for Indigenous institutions.

I recall talking about starting up an Indigenous university back in 1981, using the closed-down Peterborough Area School in SA's upper Mid-North. The idea died in the arse pretty quick. But sometimes there's nothing new in brilliant ideas in Indigenous affairs, they come around every generation, and then die.

Joe

What a cheek, down on aboriginal welfare, good old Indy well and truly has his snout in that welfare trough. The same bloke said the last pension rise wouldn't get him another schooner down at gods waiting room. Some people!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 22 October 2019 7:45:01 PM

Paul1405,
Stop before you become known as the resident perjurer of OLO ! Where did I state "down on aboriginal welfare" or rather allude to that ?
Mustering a little integrity is not your forte, is it ?

Special Delivery,

"...but then a metal retard wouldn't know that..."
Metal retard?
Is that some kind of a robot?

I cannot believe it, here we are in the 21st century, and some are still clinging to outdated 19th century Protestant values and applying them to Aboriginal people. This XX,000 mystery number is between 40,000 and 60,000 years. Since speculation is the order of the day from the detractors on the forum, lets speculate where do they envisage Western Society will be in say 4,000 year from now? A long forgotten pile of dust in a nuclear wasteland.

Issy, were you not a part of the throng that attempted to instigate WWIII and the certainty of a world nuclear catastrophe, that was in Korea in the 1950's?

A long forgotten pile of dust in a nuclear wasteland.
Paul1405,
With Citizens/permanent residents like you it'll happen sooner than later !

Paul,

Humourist and now revisionist historian, must be the pollution in Brisbane.

XX,000 now covers 40,000 to 80,000years

Technological advancement, from throwing stones to throwing sharpened sticks (and some still throw stones).

Joe, never been in favour of any kind of elitist education institutions, be they private schools or aboriginal universities. According to Issy, aboriginals are just here to throw stones and sharpened sticks. Better than throwing bombs at poor defenceless little Korean children, and they say we're the civilised people. Issy, if I had a choice I would much prefer a life of throwing sticks and stones than throwing bombs at children and blowing them up, I assume you volunteered!

Joe and Foxy, I picked up the DVD 'Contact' made in 2009, the story of Yuwali of the Martu people, who with other aboriginal women and children were brought out of the Great Sandy Desert region WA around the Percival Lakes in 1964, during the Woomera rocket testing days. Yuwali was a 17 year old girl at that time and the people had not had contact or knowledge of whitefella before. A lot of historical film, showing the first encounter, and Yuwali now 62 (2009) recounts the experience, her feelings and emotions of coming in contact with Europeans for the first time, sad but a very interesting story. Joe are you familiar with those events? Anything you can add.

Paul,

Our Aboriginal people have benefited greatly by Cook's exploration; in culture and technology, see how many musicians prefer the guitar to the didgeridoo and then there is dance as well as song.

Paul seems to think that because I believe that Australia is a better place today than when Cook landed, and that the short and violent hard scrabble lives that the indigenous population experienced was somehow better than they experience today, that my views are outdated.

According to Paul the hallucinogenic/amnesiac view of history espoused by the greens is more modern and enlightened.

I would guess that the prerequisite to join the greens would be a tab of LSD or a frontal lobotomy.

In Australia we have an isolated continent nation
with a partially subsumed indigenous culture over
laid with an imposed "British" cultural variant.

Most strikingly it is geographically out of place.

So looking and acting like a British colonial out post
whilst claiming to be an independent nation is not
altogether a good look.

This was taken from the web.

Paul,

Given that perhaps half of all young Indigenous people will, at sometime, enrol at a university in a standard award-level course, I don't see much elitist about that.

Thirty-odd years ago, there was quite a bit being written, especially in Britain, about 'mass tertiary education'. It was variously defined as 15 % and up to 35 % of an age-group. I knocked up an article about MITE, Mass Indigenous Tertiary Education, (when Indigenous participation was already around 12-14 %) that disappeared into the ether. So 50-55-60 % Indigenous participation doesn't look too bad now.

My wife Maria wrote a series of articles in around 2000-2007, suggesting that there could be fifty thousand graduates by 2020, and that they would surely have a major impact on Indigenous lives generally. At the time, there were only around 12,000 Indigenous university graduates. Such different times ! At the end of 2020, there will be somewhere between sixty (Ed. Dept) and eighty (ABS Census) thousand Indigenous university graduates, with another four thousand coming out each year. And increases in performance of around 7-8% p.a. So around 130,000 graduates by 2030, eleven years away.

Certainly, many of those graduates will take the easy road, and let themselves get sucked into the Indigenous Industry and the power elite, to which, in any case, many already related: nepotism and croneyism can be great for some careers. But i live in hope that many want to genuinely do a good job, for Australians generally and either/or/both Indigenous Australians.

By the way, is it true that Bruce Pascoe, the Aboriginal farmer, has no Aboriginal ancestry at all, pretty much all of it being English, specifically Cornish (and strangely no convict ancestry) ? But he has such a big beard, he must be Aboriginal !

Cheers,

Joe

Paul,

No, I don't know any more about Yuwali than what you have written: thank you. There are also other cases of people coming out of the desert much later, in the mid-eighties. But I suspect that people knew about that 'outside world', perhaps feared it, and may have come in temporarily to live at arm's length from missions or stations before moving back out.

I would have thought that the round-up of people in the path of the Woomera Rocket Range took place a few years earlier than 1964, maybe 1957-1959 ? But that's South Australia, which is all I really know anything about :(

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I was making the point, when you only accept people because of certain criteria that is being elitist. I believe like all students Aboriginal children included, where possible should be part of the general education system. No one should be hived off because of their race or religion. I must agree with you, there is no case for a special aboriginal university.

1964 was the year of the Blue Streak Rocket tests at Woomera. The Percival Lakes in WA, several hundred miles away, was the dump zone for the rockets. What was unique about Yuwali story was that film was taken of hers and the others 'coming out'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEWBwE-FnOU

Paul,

Depending on how one assesses the Indigenous population here, currently about 11.2 % of all Indigenous people over 15, are university graduates. I was very surprised to read, on

http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-the-population-with-completed-tertiary-education?time=1970..2010&country=ZAF

that, back in 2010, the proportion in China was only 2.71 %

In Italy, 6.84 %

In Spain and the UK, about 15 %

In Australia as a whole, 18.52 %

And in the US, 26.76 %

So, Indigenous people's performance is somewhere between Italy's and the UK's.

By 2025, the Indigenous performance rate will be around 13.2 %, and by 2030, around 17 %.

Of course, Australia's performance rate will also be improving between now and 2030, maybe up to about 22 %. So at current rates of improvement, Indigenous Australians will have reached parity in graduate numbers by around 2040, twenty-odd years away, at around 25 %.

Joe

Hi SM,

You assume because a Western lifestyle has more of the material things, and life expectancy id greater etc, therefore it must be superior to the life of an aboriginal person. Only if you judge life by Western values. Many Australians despite have lots of material goodies have emotionally crap lives. In 1770 the British elite thought their culture was superior to all others. The fact was 90% of their own people lived rather miserable lives, born into poverty, living a wretched existence, dying in poverty. Was it really a superior existence to aboriginal people? I don't think so!

Materialistic conservatives such as yourself, will always think that way. For you happiness equals wealth, nothing else is important.

Hi Paul,

Your comment to SM: "You assume because a Western lifestyle has more of the material things, and life expectancy is greater etc, therefore it must be superior to .... " traditional Aboriginal life: on a point-by-point survey of Aboriginal opinions these days, I suspect that SM's observation would prevail.

Infant mortality in Australia is currently less than one per thousand p.a., while in traditional society, it could have been more like one in two. If traditional people survived into their early-adulthood, they could expect to live for another twenty or thirty years, with a chance of dying violently a few times higher than in current Australian society, especially if they were women.

Yes, many people in our society are unhappy, that's very sad, I'm devastated, but I'm not sure how one would measure happiness in a traditional society, given that almost none currently exist. It's 37 degrees in Adelaide today, so I expect that Aboriginal people here would prefer to have their air-conditioning on, rather than walk around in the sun, constantly looking for food.

Not that Adelaide matters much in the scheme of things.

Let's tell it like it is :)

Cheers,

Joe

Paul,

While it is true that many people are not satisfied with what they have the reality of the hand to mouth existence of the hunter gatherer with zero comforts would be the equivalent of the bottom of the ladder Europeans in 1770 with a life expectancy a little over 30.

Australians are far better off now, and you are free to don a loin cloth and fend for yourself if you think it is a better existence. Your logic is a joke.

Your logic is the joke SM with your smug superior attitude, a typical self serving materialists. I bet you have a flasher car than the bloke next door. The colonisers of the 18th and 19th century had the same attitude as you.

I can tell you one thing my "Fijian Family" may not have your flash car and latest Iphone, in fact materially they have very little, but happiness they have in bounds.

BTW Joe, in 2021 we will be sponsoring one of our Fijian boys to go to uni in Brisbane, if he wants. His middle school results have been excellent with A's, so if all is well, and he wants to come here I see no problem. We have already told him if he wants that we are willing to help him.

'Your logic is the joke SM with your smug superior attitude, a typical self serving materialists. I bet you have a flasher car than the bloke next door. The colonisers of the 18th and 19th century had the same attitude as you.
'

dear oh dear.

Obviously Paul has never seen the numerous Landcruisers supplied to Aboriginal corporations that are trashed not far from new. You really are blinded by your warped narrative Paul.

The Economist says when James Cook landed in
Australia in 1770 aboriginals had been there for about 60,000
years. Their 500 or so separate nations
were deemed terra nulius, free for the taking.
Aborigines were butchered or displaced and
later their children were stolen and placed in foster care under a
cultural assimilation programme that lasted for many decades. They
got the vote only in 1962. After a referendum five years later,
they were included in the census. But not until 1992 did the
high court recognise that they should have some claim over their
land. Even well intentioned policies brought in more recently
have failed them.

When the law said they must be paid the same wage as other
Australians for the same job many were sacked. Billions of
dollars were poured into programmes to help indigenous peoples
every year with mixed results. The decade wide gap in life
expectancy is getting wider.

Though only 3% of the population aborigines fill a quarter of
Australia's prison cells. Their young men have one of the
highest suicide rates in the world. Their children are almost
ten times more likely to be in state care, and the list goes on.

The Uluru Statement from the Heart asked that our Constitution
our founding document must reflect what came before: it must
acknowledge the place of the First Peoples. Others have
described it as our nation's rule book.

It is a rule book, that still carries the illegitimacy and
stain of race, so it surely needs amendment. This land's
First Peoples have felt the sting of exclusion and
discrimination. It is the challenge of a nation to rise above
its past. Can our constitution meet the aspirations of those
locked out at the nation's birth?

Will the First Peoples be given full voice to shape their
destinies and complete their union with their fellow
Australians?

These things are not incompatible. The First People do
not have special rights, but inherent rights.
It diminishes no one to acknowledge and protect that
unique status, in keeping with the spirit and limits of
our constitutional democracy.

Paul,

Would you care to back up your assertion that Australian troops in Korea threw bombs at children?

I can remember tossing chocolate and tins of rations but perchance you have some detailed information; or is this but another boring example of your Green bile bubbling over?

Hi Paul,

Your comment: " ..... when you only accept people because of certain criteria that is being elitist. I believe like all students Aboriginal children included, where possible should be part of the general education system. No one should be hived off because of their race or religion. I must agree with you, there is no case for a special aboriginal university. "

Yes, I fully agree. My point about Indigenous university participators is that they have also been in full agreement, or at least 95 % :)

But the Indigenous power-elites have been pushing blindly for a separate university for a long time. Certainly, in the 90s, pressure was put on staff in certain programs at at least one university to try to direct Indigenous applicants to Indigenous-focussed courses (that 'Blacks should do Black courses, whites should do white courses'), and when objections were raised that that was moving towards Apartheid, those objectors didn't get their contracts renewed.

Many times, I've thought that if some of the Indigenous power-elite were introduced to the topic of Apartheid, they would perk up and say, "Hey, that's not a bad idea."

After all, the aim of the game, for them, is power over other Indigenous people, over as many people in as many ways as possible, not results. My hope is that as many Indigenous graduates as possible liberate themselves from that control.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Apartheid works well for some, generally the powerful minority, like it did in South Africa. You refer to an Indigenous power-elite, who are these people? I can understand the need for leadership, those than can be called upon to articulate the argument for those without a voice. Such people are not necessarily a power-elite, although they could become that way if not held accountable.

Hi there runner,

Dear oh dear, you are not a very good Christian are you. Christ said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
"I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Looks like you are the hypocritical type, a phoney so called Christian taking the soft option. You should have less than the poorest of the poor. Bet you also have a flash car and an Iphone as well.
Looks like that camel will be in heaven before all you phoney Christians.

Paul1405,
If you really want to live off the wrongs of the past you should also argue them without hindsight !

Foxy,

You're a bit late with Aboriginal people only getting the vote in 1962 [but then you do tend to make errors] the following is worth a read.

"1850 + The Australian colonies become self governing – all adult (21 years) male British subjects were entitled to vote in South Australia from 1856, in Victoria from 1857, New South Wales from 1858, and Tasmania from 1896 including Indigenous people. Queensland gained self-government in 1859 and Western Australia in 1890, but these colonies denied Indigenous people the vote".
http://www.aec.gov.au/indigenous/milestones.htm

Some are trying to fix the wrongs of the past.
And they're asking to be given a voice in the
decisions and policies that affect them. Not a veto.
Just a voice.

Is Mise,

1962 was when voting rights were granted for ALL
Aboriginal people.

Foxy,
And, how many Australians of all ethnicities do you think know what they vote for these days ? That is from a political perspective not Welfare. Hell, they don't even teach the Constitution in school !
If you're so into equality then why don't you express your objection to Bureaucrats who earn immoral salaries whilst the man on the street blue collar worker only gets enough to get by ?

Individual,

I was merely stating historical facts.
Yet you saw fit to attack me personally. Why is that?
Is that how you were raised? Why make assumptions about
someone you've never met and don't know - as to what I
do or don't do in my life. It frankly is none of your
business.

Foxy,

"1962 was when voting rights were granted for ALL
Aboriginal people."

That's not what you said, as I said you are prone to errors.

Is Mise,

I said - "THEY got the vote in 1962..."

Most people would know what that meant.

cont'd ...

As for being prone to errors?

Only in your mind - over which I have
no control.

Foxy,
Gawd ! I asked you a question, not attack you. You need to work on being less self orientated.

Hi Foxy,

The apologists on the forum simply want to negate, or totally expunge the horrendous damage done to aboriginal society in more than 200 years of European colonisation.

Trying to draw comparisons to the life of aboriginal people pre-colonisation, and the subsequent sudo-aboriginal society with its European influence is of little meaning in determining which is of superior value, it is all subjective as there is no yardstick to measure by. Of course the apologists are going to point to material things, flash cars and Iphones as being evidence of Western superiority.

Individual,

Re-read your post to me.
Bit rude!

"The apologists on the forum simply want to negate, or totally expunge the horrendous damage done to aboriginal society in more than 200 years of European colonisation".

Nobody is apologising for something that was normal 200 years ago.

The vote enabled them to hit the piss in pubs like everyone else. Nothing much else seems to have come of it, if the moaning and groaning from the usual suspects - black and white - is anything to go by.

Dear Paul,

And still even well intentioned policies brought in more
recently have failed our Aboriginal people. Billions of
dollars are poured into programmes to help Aboriginal
people every year end up with mixed results.

The decade-wide gap in life expectancy is getting wider.
Though only 3% of the population Aboriginals fill a
quarter of Australia's prison cella. Their young men have
one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Their children
are almost ten times more likely to be in state care - and
the list goes on.

Hi Foxy,

We have to accept those things as "normal", according to ttbn if it happens then its normal behaviour. Genocide , dispossession, murder must be accepted as is, according to ttbn it was just a matter of fact, a dot in history, all very normal. Using that logic the Nazi extermination of 6 million people was normal, because that is what Nazi's do, can you accept that, I can't!

Foxy; a recommendation from the wife (nothing to do with this) 'Unmasked' by Turia Pitt, excellent reading.

"hit the piss in pubs" Nah, that's what happened with Indy's last welfare boost.

Paul,

You certainly are a BS artist. I have never driven a fancy car, in fact I am presently driving a Yaris, which is comfortable and very fuel efficient. I have a mid size house that well insulated and with LED lights super efficient and my money is spent on what I find important such as my kid's education.

Money in itself does not make one happy, but only a moron would believe that a life of destitution is anywhere near as happy or fulfilling as one where food shelter and education is available.

So your highly racist "noble savage" theory is a pile of crap. Australia and the world are better because of the insight and bravery of Cook, and the world is a darker place because of the mean spirited polemics that the gangreens and others left whingers promote.

Paul as all good regressives changes language by calling his opponents apologist. The truth is that he along with other regressives, he is apologist for communities that are full of grog, child abuse and dole bludging. The regressives are more part of the problem than the answer as shown over the last 50 years.

Dear Paul,

Thank your wife for the book recommendation.
I admire Turia Pitt very much and will try to get
a hold of a copy.

Talking about genocide. As you know my family lost
family members under the Soviet occupation. I won't
go into the details. Suffice to say - those were
horrific times. Therefore I would not presume to
downgrade what any one or their family of our Aboriginal
people has gone through.
All we can do is show empathy and hopefully try to
improve their present and future. Which as
we know has not been an easy task to date.

I don't think it is asking much to hear Indigenous views when
Parliament makes decisions about them. It is a modest and
moral request. And it is not beyond this great nation of
ours to make it happen.

SM,

I like your straight talk. The lefties live under rocks.

Foxy,

"I said - "THEY got the vote in 1962..."

Most people would know what that meant."

Not anyone who knows Australian history, and you are prone to errors as I've shewn before.

Lefties live under rocks?

Really?

I bet not many of us knew that.

However here's a few more facts about Lefties:

Of all the interesting facts about handedness - Right
or Left, probably the most important one is that it
does not matter much at all.

The differences between Righties and Lefties - are rather
subtle and of much greater scientific interest than any kind of
practical use. Therefore we really should not assume too
much about people's personalities or habits because of the
hand they might use - or their chance of success in life.

We should be reminded that over the last seven US Presidents
have been either Lefties or mixed handed - and none of them
lived under rocks.

Marinate that.

Is Mise,

Don't over think, just let it go.

Or if you can't - then -

Tell the negative committee that meets inside
your head to sit down and be quiet. (smile).

Hi Foxy,

We have the Negative Committee right here on the Forum, the grumpy old men brigade from the Shady Rest Retirement Home for
Geriatric Gentlemen (NO CHICKS ALLOWED). There's Indy and Issy and Hassy along with a few others old blokes in retirement. One may pop in here on the homes community computer this morning before Nursy serves out the portage and straws for breakfast. Anyway they have a full day of activities planned for our dear friends, there's the morning nap, followed by the afternoon nap, a steak dinner, again severed through a straw, a bit of TV watching 'Captain Kangaroo', then lights out at 6pm! The joy of it all!

Paul.

You forgot the Milo and the Viagra at bedtime, the first to help us sleep and the second to stop us rolling out of bed.

Paul is typical of the lefties here. Nothing to say, nothing to justify their opinions, set for them by the ABC & the Guardian, so they resort to abuse, the only thing they are good at, & actually understand.

Dear Paul,

Any person calling others names shows that they are probably
having lousy manners, a lousy upbringing, and a
bad temper, and are a disrespectful person.

All in all properties that do not speak well of them.

They're really talking MUCH more about themselves than
about anyone else.

These people don't seem to realise that instead of being
insulting - if they were to prove themselves right -
we would consider amending our views.

Unfortunately, insults are what they've grown up with.
It's a cultural thing - and fortunately it's beginning
to disappear with the diversity of cultures and family
traditions that are growing and taking a firm hold in
this country. The "rough as guts" pub brawl mentality
is slowly being confined to the football fields and sports
clubs derived from the UK where they initially originated
from.

New Zealand, beloved of Paul, was initially mention by him as having removed some Captain Cook statues.

If the poll released today is anything to go by, PM Ardern might very well be the next one removed at the next election.

I regularly read a column by a NZ reporter, who still actually lives in the country (fancy that!), and Ms. Ardern is not as well thought of over there as we are led to believe in Australia.

Just love it ttbn, you put up an unsubstantiated piece of trash, yuda yuda, yuda, who from, Andy Bolt's Kiwi cousin?

See you've stopped sucking up here to Corny Banana. Like the other fruitcakes, Corny sucked you right in. Ha!

Hi Foxy, I give the guys a bit of a razz, now and then, it keeps them on their toes. I always find the Forums grumpy old men great value. What would we do without them?

Indy I would have taken you as a bloke who goes hard out on the Horlicks with your Viagra, Milo could have side effects.

Unsubstantiated piece of trash? I don't need to substantiate it for it to be true.

You are clearly suffering from arrested development, still chuntering on about Cory Bernadi, thinking that calling him Corny Banana is actually funny. You need to get new material, get a new script writer. From what you say, your wife is much smarter than you are. Give her a go.

Hi Paul,

New Zealand PM Ardern is still regarded as the
country's preferred PM. She is doing a brilliant
job at tackling the hard issues - which inevitably
are not going to be popular with everyone. Like
tackling online extremism, bringing in stricter
gun laws, and so on. However, she's doing very
well indeed. And New Zealand is lucky to have her.

BTW: I enjoy reading your comedic quips.
Keeps all of us entertained.

Foxy, You said,
"Dear Paul,

Any person calling others names shows that they are probably
having lousy manners, a lousy upbringing, and a
bad temper, and are a disrespectful person"

Does this also apply to a person who called Australian soldiers in Korea murderers who threw bombs at children?

Paul has failed to substantiate that ludicrous claim, perhaps you, with your frequently demonstrated skill at finding references, might help him to back up or shut up.

Is Mise,

There's an article in today's - The Weekend Australian,
Sunday Oct. 27th 2019 by Richard Lloyd Parry with the
title:
"Australian and British soldiers have been accused of
committing war crimes during Korean War."

It might be worth a read.

Issy, firstly, you like all solders are part of the collective, therefore the actions of one are the actions of all, you included, you cannot divorce yourself from that. During the Korean War, towns and villages were bombed and shelled by us "The Good Guys". Those towns and villages contained non combatants, including children, some children were killed, this is an undisputed fact, therefore my assertion that Australian soldiers in Korea were murderers who threw bombs at children is true.

Lots of old Diggers don't like it when the actions of war are put to them in that way, so be it. I don't believe all should be punished for the war crimes of others, but all must take some collective responsibility.

Paul,

Firing shells by artillery and dropping bombs from 'planes is not the same as "throwing bombs at children", thrown bombs are hand grenades (in our case Mills Bombs).

So put up or shut up.

Foxy,

How about something substantive?

Being pedantic are we Issy, can't wriggle out that easy!

"Firing shells by artillery and dropping bombs from 'planes is not the same as "throwing bombs at children", thrown bombs are hand grenades (in our case Mills Bombs)"

The end result is the same, dead children, heads, arms and legs everywhere. Try telling a dead child's mother; "its not the same!"

P/S Are you saying you threw hand grenades, sorry in your case Mills Bombs, at children? Please clear that one up!

Is Mise,

" Scorched Earth, Black Snow," by Andrew Salmon.

The book is about Britain and Australia in the
Korean War 1950. It gives accounts by veterans
of the conflict.

It was mentioned in "The Weekend Australian"article that
I referred you to earlier.

This is an excellent book and is as substantive as it gets.

In every case where cultures clash there has almost, without doubt, been "casualties of war". If you believe in intelligent life out there somewhere in the cosmos, then possibly into the future we will see either us (Hoomans) or them (aliens) coming unstuck to some degree. The victors in most cases get to write or re-write history. How pathetic it is to see the removal and destruction of historic statues and landmarks in the US with the Civil War, the Kiwi's with Captain Cook and sure as little eggs don't bounce we'll see it happening here in Oz before too much longer...sad, all too sad. Let's deny our history because it is expedient and moreover, 'politically correct' to do so. Today, 178 years ago, 21 Nyungar soldiers were killed by Governor James Stirling's troops at Pinjarra, just south of Perth. As a former soldier who has aboriginal heritage (Dharruk) I say: "Lest We Forget". But let us not forget also that in Merrie Olde England, the Landlords shot, stabbed, burned down the houses of and carried out a bit of rape & pillage on my Scots ancestors as well as some dispossession of lands while they were at it. Do I hear the Queen apologising - saying "Sorry"... Silence is the stern reply! Should I start ranting about statues of Queen Victoria needing to be turned into scrap metal, should the bricks of Government House on Macquarie St Sydney be turned to rubble? Of course let's do it ! The Clearances happened over a lot longer timeframe and claimed considerably more lives. Let's then take every vestige of what is our history and put up some bark humpys to replace them...what a joke and how preposterous the whole scenario.

Foxy,

"Any person calling others names shows that they are probably
having lousy manners, a lousy upbringing, and a
bad temper, and are a disrespectful person.

All in all properties that do not speak well of them.

They're really talking MUCH more about themselves than
about anyone else."

Does the above not apply to Paul, who called Australian soldiers murderers who threw bombs at children?
Something which he cannot substantiate.

Perhaps you have made an error of judgement?

Perhaps you know of some such instance.

Paul,

Doing the Green Wriggle again?

You can't back up your ludicrous claim and I admitted to throwing chocolates and tinned rations to children.

You do fit Foxy's criteria for a namecalling gutless wonder.

Tell her a bit of a flat excuse for humour and she might back you up even further.

Issy, you just keep getting it wrong. Being descriptive about the actions of soldiers in war is not calling them names. A name calling for example would be to say So N' So is a baboon, when obviously a human being cannot be a baboon, although that could be insulting to baboons. War, and the consequences of war, for some is a very distasteful subject.

Accounts put the civilian death toll in the Korean War at 1.6 million, many were children, an inescapable fact. How do you justify the murder of 1.6 million non combatants in a war you participated in. Some might dismiss it simply as unfortunate collateral damage, I am willing to accept any reasonable explanation.

"July 1950 - In the first month of the war, US soldiers kill significant numbers of Korean civilians under a bridge, near a village called No Gun Ri. It is unclear whether the soldiers were ordered to kill civilians or acted on their own."

Paul,

You said Australian soldiers threw bombs at children, you obviously cannot substantiate this accusation, so as you can't put up then at least shut up.

Perhaps your admiring acolyte might come to the rescue.

Issy, unfortunately Australia was no more than a sycophantic supporter of the United States in both the Korean and Vietnam Wars. No explanation for the 1.6 million non combatants killed in Korea, maybe you have an explanation for the 1 million non combatants killed in Vietnam.

Now YOU are engaging in name calling (gutless wonder tut tut), seems to be the retreat of the sensitive war minded mob. Why is that? The last bloke who engaged in the name calling of me was also of your like mind, but of a different war. Obviously I would never have known of yours, or his, involvement in those wars unless both of you had not made it public knowledge on this forum. I have made it public knowledge here that I am a pacifist, and opposes all wars.

Is Mise,

All you have to do is get hold of
a copy from your local library of the
book I mentioned earlier. It confirms
what Paul is saying by the veterans
themselves who took part in the conflict.

Foxy,

Does the book state that Australian soldiers threw hand grenades at children, because that's what Paul says.

Do you agree with him?

As for collective responsibility by all soldiers in war, what about those who were conscripted?
The majority of soldiers never see the enemy and never fire a shot, is their position the same as front line soldiers?

Do all homosexual males share responsibility for the actions of homosexual paedophiles; or all Greens share collectively in the guilt of those of their party who err?

Is Mise,

I am not familiar with the accounts given by
veterans of the Korean war. I have not read the book
only the article in The Weekend Australian which
states that both British and Australian
soldiers were - accused of war crimes.

Seeing as you are the one so interested in the subject
why don't you do your own research and find out the
facts for yourself. I've given you a place to
start. The rest is up to you. I really can't help you
any further nor do I feel qualified to make any comments
on the subject as I have not thoroughly researched the matter.

It also is wise to keep in mind when studying any historical
event (especially war) to look at things critically, in
context, and any other such considerations. We don't know
the circumstances involved - and the more we learn, possibly,
the better we will understand what happened and why.

Foxy,

Your above post is a good example of someone who has made a glaring error when you say,

"All you have to do is get hold of
a copy from your local library of the
book I mentioned earlier. It confirms
what Paul is saying"

Do you really think that it confirms what Paul is saying, that Australian soldiers threw bombs at children?

Or are you telling the truth when you say,
"I am not familiar with the accounts given by
veterans of the Korean war. I have not read the book".

One might wonder why you say that the book is confirmation when you have, by your own admission, not read it.

Hi Issy,

Those conscripted (forced into war), should lay down their arms as conscientious objectors. In my case, as I failed to register for the draft during the Vietnam War, I was automatically conscripted. No action was taken by the warmongers to in-prison me, then the election of Whitlam government put an end to all that.

Collective responsibility, examples; all Catholics share in the guilt for the actions of others within the organisation. Those that willingly joined the Nazi Party in Germany were all partly responsible for those things done in their name, "I didn't know" is no excuse . Interesting, in war, to commit a war crime (all acts of war are a crime in my opinion) the defence of "I was following orders" is also unacceptable.

Issy, you can be as trite as you like, perdantic ad nauseam as to the technical use of words, I don't care. In 2018 more than 12,000 children were killed or maimed in armed conflicts, the highest number since the United Nations started monitoring the issue. By what method children are killed in war don't much matter. Sadly its innocents, like the 12,000, who pay the price for the folly of war.

Is Mise,

I can't help you any further.

Foxy,

"I can't help you any further"

Another delusion, you've never helped at all.

Paul,

When and where did Australian soldiers in Korea throw bombs at children?

There is nothing trite or pedantic about the question, you made the statement but apparently all you can do to back it up is waffle.
We all know the horrors of war, some of us more than others but bald faced lies need to be challenged.

Issy, the evidence is buried along with the rest of the 1,600,000 non combatants killed during the Korean War. The perpetrators are safe in the knowledge that not one of them can rise up and give evidence against them, silenced forever. Such things never happened, expunged from history, an untruth that never was. Just hope that such things are not repeated, sadly that to is not true, 12,000 last year, how many next year?

Call it a bald face lie if you wish, So be it!

Paul,

Just one reference, just one!!

Hi Paul,

I can't wait until you get onto the atrocities of the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648). You'll have a ball ripping into every side.

Joe

Is Mise,

Unfortunately and sadly, you're beyond any help.
Nobody can help.

Foxy,

Especially a person who claims that a certain book backs up another person's claim and then say that they have not read the book.

Some would say that that is an error of judgement.

I await your next sane posting on the matter, but I shall probably wait in vain.

Issy,

Between October and December 1950 35,000 men, women and children were murdered by American military forces and their supporters during the cleansing of Sinchon Korea. This figure represents about one-quarter of the Sinchon population.

Paul,

So?

How many Australian soldiers threw bombs at children?

Can't you find a reference?

Ask Foxy, maybe she can point you to another book, that she hasn't read, that will get you there.

I don't know why you sensible posters keep encouraging Paul The Australia Hater. If you think that you are taking a rise out of him ... sorry, he is too thick and hate-filled to get the message. The best place for him would be New Zealand: they are all mad over there.

Is Mise,

Every State Public Library has the information you're
seeking. Librarians don't have to read all the books
but they certainly can refer you to the information
you're after. If you're not in a major city your local
library can acquire the information through inter-library
loans.

ttbn,

You claimed on another thread that you treat people you meet with
friendliness and politeness because that's the way you were brought up and you don't pose to be different to something you're not.
That sounded quite lovely. That's why your latest post and
response on Paul has me confused. Is your latest
response on Paul an example of your being who you really are?
Because it surely doesn't speak well of you. Try again.

Far be it for me to come to Paul's defence, but General Macarthur DID plan to drop the Big One on the north along the Yalu, once the Chinese army had moved into northern Korea in late 1950. To his credit, President Truman promptly sacked him.

Paul,

And between 1941 and 1941 the Russians murdered 5 million Germans, in 1960 the communists murdered thousands of civilians, and in 1967 The arabs murdered a couple of thousand Jews, and in Iraq the Iraqis murdered a few thousand Americans etc etc.

If you keep on using the word murder it becomes meaningless, pretty much like the greens.

Shadow Minister,

Genocide and murder is never meaningless.

The determination to write indictments in mass
killings, however, all too easily leads onto the
questionable practice of stereotyping nations.
Continued stereotyping of any nation, however, can
encourage "counter-stereotyping" and the result is
usually a complete breakdown in communication.

Foxy,

I agree that the wanton labelling of every Aus soldier as a murderer is the act of a fraud and a coward.

Foxy,

Just to refresh your memory, you said:
"All you have to do is get hold of
a copy from your local library of the
book I mentioned earlier. It confirms
what Paul is saying by the veterans
themselves who took part in the conflict"

How do you know it confirms anything as you haven't read it.

"Every State Public Library has the information you're
seeking. Librarians don't have to read all the books
but they certainly can refer you to the information
you're after. If you're not in a major city your local
library can acquire the information through inter-library
loans."

I don't necessarily want to read it, I want Paul and backer to shew me the evidence that Australian soldiers threw bombs at children.

You read the book, you need to do so, if only for the restoration of some credibility.

Loudmouth it is a pity General MacArthur wasn't sacked after he lost the Philippines at the start of the Pacific war.

I have often wondered how many had to die for MacArthur to fulfill his promise, "I will Return" to the Philippines.

The invasion of the Philippines was entirely unnecessary, they could have been bypassed as easily as anywhere else, but his arrogance demanded his ego be stroked.

Is Mise,

Why are you backing away from finding the answers
you seek through libraries? It's your credibility
that's lacking.

I am not the one interested in this topic.
You are - so put up or shut up old chap.
You asked for help. I politely gave it to you.
And I got the information from The Weekend
Australian - the article that referenced the
book mentioned where it clearly stated that
the book dealt with accounts of soldiers who
took part in the conflict.
I don't have to read the book.

I directed you to
where you can get the information you're after.
The rest is now up to you.

Stop banging on about it. You're beginning to
look silly.

Shadow Minister,

Nobody is labeling anybody.
People are merely stating historical facts.
Especially the veterans who actually took part
in the conflict.

Hi Foxy,

I have put a hold on 'Scorched Earth Black Snow' Andrew Salmon, should have it tomorrow. Other than watching 'MASH' I never took much interest in the Korean War, read dozens of books on WWI though. The first SAC in WWI the French General Ferdinand Foch believed if you kill one million of the enemy, and they kill one million less one of yours, you win. And good old Ferdy was on our side!

I don't subscribe to the lesser of two evils theory, like "the Russians murdered 5 million Germans" somehow that negates the murder of 1.6 million Koreans 10 years later, or 1 million Vietnamese in the 1960's. Should it validate the murders committed by the other side, no we simply have 7.6 million murdered.

For me, one of the greatest moments in modern history was when Gorbachev put total nuclear disarmament to Reagan, one of the saddest was when Reagan declined the offer.

"Former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev says US President Trump's plan to withdraw from a key Cold War nuclear weapons treaty is a reversal of efforts to achieve nuclear disarmament." That's where we are today, over 30 years later. Its so sad that today's world leaders cannot work towards world peace, unfortunately it is just the opposite.

Dear Paul,

I fear that our world can become so obsessed with the
problems of hatred and aggression, that it will allow
peace and love to be regarded as soft and weak. Yet
our survival depends on their dominance.

It's tragic to think that the average person can
expect to give up three to four years of his or her
life working to foot the arms bill, while ever more
people suffer from illiteracy, ill health and
chronic hunger.

We need new ways of thinking to cope with the nuclear
age. It's here that our world leaders, but especially
our writers - with their concern for the human
condition and their special skills with language can
enable us to imagine the horrific reality of
nuclear arms and nerve us to build an alternative future.

Decades have gone by, and some of the scars and sores
of the past are healing. However, unless we
learn from the mistakes of the past, the tragedies, it
is unlikely that we shall have a future to contemplate.
The moral choice is ours to make.

Foxy,

I'm not interested in the book, all that I'm interested in is Paul giving a reference to back up his assertion that Australian soldiers in Korea threw bombs at children.

As I said earlier all that I remember throwing to children (not at) was chocolate (and other sweets) and tinned food.

The only other thing that I remember throwing was Australian pennies, and I've met Koreans many years later who still prize their Aussie penny from long ago.

If such a thing as Paul asserts happened it was a war crime and needs to be aired and you clearly stated that the book backed him up, even though you had not read it; what a blunder, but an apology would not go amiss.

Is Mise,

It's now up to you to find the answers to the
information you're after. I've referred you to
where the information is available.

As for your argument with Paul?
Kindly leave me out of that.
You asked me to help you. I've done that.
A Thank You would be appreciated.

Foxy,

You invited yourself into the argument by backing up Paul's assertion.

You didn't help, in fact, you made a fool of yourself.

I have nothing further to say unless Paul or one of his sycophants can back up his slanderous lie against Australian soldiers in Korea.

Other than to observe that Captain James Cook was a great bloke.

What annoys me most about left whingers in general is that they will pick out one factoid from a story whilst ignoring other details (usually deliberately), whine like a jet engine, then get all offended when everyone else think that they are idiots. The issue around the intermediate range missile treaty between the US and Russia is a prime example.

That Trump announced that the US was withdrawing from the treaty banning the development of intermediate range missiles is true, but it was not because Trump is a war monger as the hysterically delusional Paul would have us believe, but rather because Russia just rolled out an entire new range of intermediate range missiles including hypersonic ones which meant that the treaty was already dead in the water.

That China who was not bound by the treaty was also rolling out these missiles put the US at a huge disadvantage.

Shadow,

Trump by his actions can be classed as a warmonger, so to can be Putin and Xi Jinping, along with the majority of world leaders. The demise of such treaties, and the ascendancy of more of the MAD principle puts the whole world at a disadvantage. Your belief that modern Western Civilisation is superior to ancient indigenous cultures may one day all go up in a gigantic puff of smoke.

Paul,

" Your belief that modern Western Civilisation is superior to ancient indigenous cultures may one day all go up in a gigantic puff of smoke."

The ancient internet was not a patch on the present one; why don't you use the modern one to find a reference to your silly assertion?

According to Paul all national leaders are warmongers, all soldiers are murderers and hunter gatherers with an expected lifespan of 30 were superior to western culture.

Thank god the greens have never been given power.

Is Mise,

No. I did not invite myself into the argument.

You did that on page 32 where you posted that
Paul has failed to substantiate his claim -
(he called Australian soldiers in Korea murderers
who threw bombs at children). You then asked me -

"perhaps you with your frequently demonstrated skill
at finding references might help him to back up or
shut up."

I took your request seriously and in good faith I
referred you to an article on the topic in The
Weekend Australian, "Australian and British soldiers
have been accussed of committing war crimes during
Korean War."

This for you was not "substantive." You again asked
for something more "substantive." Again I obliged
with referring you to the book - "Scorched Earth:
Black Snow," by Andrew Salmon - giving accounts by
veterans of the Korean conflict.

You again, made the diversion and a big deal out of the
fact that I had not read the book. Yet you were the one
supposedly seeking the information about the conflict.
Not me. I was simply supplying you with references to
information as you had asked. I was not under any
obligation to read the material. That was your job.

Anyway I referred you to places where you could get further
help - and access to information. Nothing suited you.
Which makes me realise that you were only seeking to
muddy the waters.

And to make matters worse you felt obligated to try to
insult me as well.

You've lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Shadow Minister,

War occurs as a result of a political decision - usually
a decision by older men that younger men should fight
for what the older men believe to be worth fighting
for.

There can be no war unless the leaders of at least two
societies with conflicting interests decide that they
prefer war to any alternative means of settling their
differences.

The soldiers themselves go to war - frequently not
knowing what they are fighting for, and usually terrified
of meeting the enemy in battle - because
a legitimate political authority is
determined on that course of action.

War is actually a highly structured social activity. It
cannot be sustained without a strong political authority that
can persuade people to risk their lives for a purpose beyond
themselves.

Many factors may influence the decision to go to war - the
personalities of the leaders, the influence of nationalist,
religious, or other ideologies, the extent of popular
support for war; the anticipated economic gains or losses, the
ambitions or advice of the military; perceptions or
misperceptions of the other side's motives and intentions;
the expected reaction of the international community;
and of course, expectations about the likely outcome of the
conflict.

But one factor that seems particularly likely to encourage war
is preparations for it. A military build-up by country.

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

Shadow Minister,

All over the world, hundreds of thousands of
scientists and engineers devote their skills
to planning
new and more efficient ways for humans to kill one
another; millions of workers labour to manufacture
instruments of death; and tens of millions of soldiers
train for combat - and some of them actually go to war.

From a moral and even an economic point of view, this vast
investment of human ingenuity and energy seems a tragic
waste.

Shadow Minister,

You need to look up the dictionary meaning of MAJORITY and ALL there is a difference.

"According to Paul all national leaders are warmongers, all soldiers are murderers and hunter gatherers with an expected lifespan of 30 were superior to western culture."

To quote that great political philosopher Groucho Marx; You Sir are an unmitigated liar! When did I say any of that?

Issy, can you please supply evidence of chocolate throwing in Korea by Australian soldiers?

Is Mise,

Yeah, I've got a question for you as well.

Have your got evidence to disprove what Paul is
saying? Please supply it or put up and shut up.

Foxy,

"Foxy, You said,
"Dear Paul,

Any person calling others names shows that they are probably
having lousy manners, a lousy upbringing, and a
bad temper, and are a disrespectful person"

Does this also apply to a person who called Australian soldiers in Korea murderers who threw bombs at children?

Paul has failed to substantiate that ludicrous claim, perhaps you, with your frequently demonstrated skill at finding references, might help him to back up or shut up."

That's the full quote.

Can I prove that Australian soldiers didn't throw bombs at children?
No, I can't but then I'm not the one making the assertion that they did, but I was there and I never heard of any malpractices against children.

Dear Paul,

The following link may be of interest to you.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-08/australian-defence-force-war-crimes-inquiry-delayed/10880922

Apparently there's a lengthy investigation into
possible war crimes committed by elite Australian
soldiers in Afghanistan.

We're told that -

The long-awaited report by the Inspector-General of the
Australian Defence Force (IGADF) will not be released
at least until towards the end of the year.

cont'd ...

Dear Paul,

You might want to look up information on David
McBride - the military lawyer and whistleblower
on the "Afghan Files." He apparently leadked
information on the killing of civilians, including
children.

I believe his trial has been delayed until next year.

Here's another on link on Afghanistan:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/get-rid-of-the-prisoners-by-shooting-them-australian-commandos-tell-of-war-crimes-20190910-p52prl.html

Dear Paul,

David McBride leaked documents in 2017 to ABC
journalists. The recent raids at ABC headquarters
in Sydney came off the back of the stories and the
two journalists involved are also being pursued by
federal police for publishing the documents.

McBride wants the documents de-classified arguing
they don't pertain to current national security
considerations.

I believe that his trial has been delayed until
sometime next year. He doesn't regret doing what he
did. He claims his conscience drove him to it.

We'll have to wait and see what develops next.

Foxy,

Care to answer the question?

Hi Foxy,

Had a read up on the David McBride case, interesting set of circumstances. can't wait for the outcome. We like to think war crimes are something only committed by the bad guys, that's the other side. Its uncomfortable to find out that our side, the good guys, could be just as guilty as the enemy when it comes to such things. There are those among us who simply like to sanitise or minimise or simply dismiss our dirty part in the whole affair of war. I might call them the chocolate throwers from now on. I say, war makes good people do bad things.

Paul,

As an avowed chocolate thrower I'd just like to ask you one question, why did you lie about Australian soldiers in Korea throwing bombs at children?

Of course, if it's not a lie then you can give a reference; and no referring to a book that you haven't read.

Dear Paul,

The investigation into war crimes by Australian
soldiers - Sixty Minutes did a
program on it. The McBride and the "Äfghan Files"
affair that resulted with the raids on the ABC headquarters
in Sydney,
and then the home of the ABC journalist has stirred up
so many issues.

War crimes is a highly emotive
subject. Some people are not interested in explanations.
Merely in denials - despite the evidence being given by
participants in the actual conflicts. We have no control
over those kind of attitudes.

McBride's case has been deferred until March of next year.
I dare say we'll be hearing much more then.

See you on another discussion.

Hi Issy,

Account of Corporal John Pluck Korean War veteran, clearing of a village. "It (the village) was heavily damaged; holed walls, sagging roofs, debris strewn between cottages (the result of allied shelling)....I heard a low moaning coming from one of these houses that had a shell hole in the roof....peering in I could make out the prone outlines of a man, a woman and several children coated in thick dust. A huge gash in the scalp of one of the children, a little girl, perhaps seven years old." Corporal Pluck carried her out, helpless, he handed her over to an old woman. He later heard the child had died the same day.

"I was 23 years old, a leader of men, but this disturbed me a great deal." Corporal John Pluck.

Foxy, thanks for the book reference, makes for interesting reading. Issy should get himself a copy. Yet to come across anything about chocolate throwing. Issy got a reference?

Paul,

Hardly a man who threw bombs at children.

References to the giving of chocolate and other sweets by soldiers to children will hardly be found anywhere, it's one of those things that happen, like the sun rising.

I served with two Norwegian soldiers and when we asked them what they remembered most about the German soldiers in WWII, they said "They were great, they gave us lollies and chocolate.

However, I did find this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Halvorsen
Gail Halvorsen who did the lolly bit on a grand scale.

Issy, I don't require evidence of chocolate throwing in Korea, I believe you.

"Hardly a man who threw bombs at children". I'm not accusing Corporal John Pluck of personally throwing bombs at children. You want to be perdantic and differentiate between the action of an individual soldier throwing a bomb by hand, thus hand grenade, and the mechanical launching of a bomb, call it a shell if you like, or those things that drop out of aircraft.

You asked for evidence that bombs were thrown at children (by our side) during the Korean War. I give you the account by Crp Pluck. I have no reason to doubt this child's death did not take place as the corporal has so described. Unless you can provide evident that Crp Pluck is an inveterate liar prone to exaggeration, I'll have to believe the man.

What about you? Can't go on about the book not being read, The book 'Scorched Earth Black Snow' Andrew Salmon is now out of print but my local library was able to obtain the one and only copy in the system for me. Maybe your local library can do the same for you. I am sure you will want to thank Foxy for alerting you to this very informative book, I do. THANKS Foxy (smile).

p/s Are you satisfied by the evidence provided?

Bravo for Colonel Wiggle Wings, great piece of PR there, certainly he was no Colonel Tibbets. One throwing lollies on a grand scale, the other throwing just the one bomb, but on a grand scale also.

Paul,

No, I'm not satisfied.
You said that Australian soldiers threw bombs at children, you have provided no evidence that any of them did so.
So I must consider your statement to be a lie and a slander against good men, most of whom are now dead and unable to defend themselves.

So, to sum up this thread, the issue of celebrating or commemorating the sighting of Australia's east coast by Captain Cook does not seem to be all that crucial for most Australians ?

After all, given the nature of human societies everywhere, and imperial-minded ones in particular, the settlement/invasion of Australia was inevitable, sooner or later. That seems to be at least one conclusion to make.

Joe

Hi Issy,

As I said before, war makes good people do bad things. Being in denial as you are, I don't expect that you will accept that ALL sides in wars commit atrocities, including our side.

Just watched the DVD 'Going Upriver' The Long (Vietnam) war of John Kerry, a leading US political figure. Kerry was captain of a Fast River Boat in Vietnam, saw plenty of action, given medals etc. On return from Vietnam, Kerry became a leading figure in the Anti-Vietnam war movement, leading the "Veterans Against the War". An interesting bit from the video; When Kerry took command of his boat, he asked innocently; On patrol up river, how does one identify the Viet Cong?", his CO's reply was "If they run they are VC, shoot them, if they don't run, they are VC, shoot them!".

Paul,

I understand that you use a different English to the rest of us (mostly), so why did you say that Australian soldiers threw bombs at children?

Do you not understand the verb 'throw'?

That is your problem, not mine.

Let's get back to Captain Cook and all the good that he did for Australia's aboriginal people.

"why did you say that Australian soldiers threw bombs at children?"
Because they did! Being pedantic does not hide the facts. Please correct the errors of the account by Crp Pluck, if you can. You asked for evidence, I gave it, then you denied it. I'm not going to offer further evidence, as one account of truth is enough.

Trying to use deflection to mask your denial. I understand to a degree the sensitivity of those like yourself who willingly participated in these vile conflicts.

The balls in your court.

Paul,

The balls in your court, you dropped it and no amount of obfuscation is going to change the fact that you made an unsubstantiated allegation.

I can't help you with your poor English, that's your problem.

Is your habit of continually lying a congenital problem or did you acquire it after becoming a Green?

Hi Issy,

There is no obfuscation with the account of Corporal John Pluck being clear evidence of child killing by our side during the Korean War, something given your fantasy world of chocolate throwing and lolly dropping is not denied by you.

1.6 million non combatants murdered during the Korean War, many by our side, is self evidence of criminality. Do you want to deny that with another Col Wiggle Wings story.

Dear Paul,

I admire your tenacity.

Are you familiar with the book, "Pluck Under Fire:
My Korean War Experiences with the Middlesex Regiment
1950-1951," by John Pluck.

Corporal Pluck gives a full account of his experiences in
the Korean War. Something he will never forget. It left a
devastating mark on his life.

I like and respect Paul, without reservation
And think maybe this comment will upset him
Maybe even not truly belong in this thread
But here goes, yesterday, or was it this morning? a Sydney council told us it would not hold celebrations on Australia day
Do they understand?
They, no one else, just fueled the I have had a gutful fires to extreme status
We MUST, remember our history, understand the great wrong done by OTHERS who came before us
But too know some minority views are powering the very thing they fear the most
Leave history as it was and is, learn from it stride to be better but understand
Yes understand, the extremist right is powered by a left that will not truly look at what it is telling us
I suspect that council [most are mad in any case] is a Green one, and rest my case

Hi Foxy,

Unfortunately "My Korean War Experiences with the Middlesex Regiment
1950-1951," by John Pluck. is not available through Brisbane City Library, but they do have a number of interesting titles on the subject. However John Pluck's accounts are well represented in Andrew Salmon's book. I imagine most of these books would be on Issy's unapproved reading list.

Thanks for that help with the book by Andrew Salmon, its a little bit of dry reading, with lots of facts included, but it is interesting.

The wife is back into saxophone playing, so its more reading with ears covered for me. "T" is very old school, likes the following for example Bill Black Como. Also a big fan of Kenny G.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWm8m9Xm2BU

Dear Belly,

No. Don't leave history as it is.
It's unfinished business. We need to
be told the full history about the
Constitution that empowered laws and
politics that denied Indigenous voting rights,
property rights, equal wages, and asserted unequal
protectionist controls.

Australia is not an ideological nation and ours is not
an ideological Constitution. Ours is a pragmatic
Constituion. It does not impose a unitary state. It does
not aspirationally declare all Australians equal.

Australia's Constitution is a product of our history and
circumstances.

Tell the truth about the past. The full truth.
That is one of the things that our Indigenous
People are asking us to do

Dear Paul,

Thank You for "My Girl," great song.

Playing the sax? How cool would that be?

I still
have my beautiful zither which I'm saving
for my grand-daughter. But it's not as cool as
the sax.

Hi Belly put your foot into this one.

"I suspect that council [most are mad in any case] is a Green one, and rest my case"

Sydney's Inner West Council will vote on scrapping January 26 as the date for Australia Day celebrations. It's a move the LABOR Mayor Darcy Byrne said recognised the "deep hurt" the date represented for Aboriginal people. However he said citizenship ceremonies would still be conducted on January 26.

This council has an Indigenous inclusive policy. Celebrating Invasion Day is not very inclusive, now is it.

Result 2017 election: Labor 5, Greens 5, Liberal 2 and Independents 3.

Paul,

Have you found a reference yet to Australian soldiers in Korea throwing bombs at children?

You've had plenty of time, perhaps Foxy will give you a hand and refer you, with certainty, to other books that she hasn't read.

Fair cop Paul, we have lunatics in the ALP
I will never stop reminding them the lights on the hill now burn in some workers second or third home
Foxy note your view
Never my intention to say anything else
But the We have had a gutful mob win when one side gets its way
We have had enough PC includes many more than some understand

Dear Belly,

I fully understand your point of view.
There's many who will agree with you.

Dear Paul,

Is Mise's previous post and his continued stirring
on the Korean War reminds me of the following joke:

What do you call a professional troll?

A master baiter!

Cheers.

Foxy quite ok in fact in a day or so my party [the only alternative government to the current one]
Will release its report, let's face it my support for Bill Shorten, while believing he and Gillard weak for knifing Rudd was wrong, and his failure will be part of the report, he could not sell himself
So why the new me
See supporting minorities, while turning majority's away, is insanity
Hurts to see/understand/fear every day workers distrust Labor because they [hopefully wrongly, but not sure some times] think we value minority views more than majority ones
The had a gutful mob are in fact a majority

Foxy,

Reference please as you don't have the wherewithal to have thought it up yourself.

I didn't bring up anything about Australian soldiers in Korea throwing bombs at children, Paul raised it with his lying, craven slur on Aussie soldiers alive and dead and I took exception to that, as I do to all liars.

So, save him his evident embarrassment and find a reference, preferably not in a book that you haven't read.

Is Mise,

Don't ask someone to do something you are not
willing to hear. QUIT ASKING.

cont'd ...

Also, one moment you ask for my help and my
"skills" and next moment you tell me I
don't have the "wherewithall?"

As I told Paul - you - are a master baiter!

Dear Paul,

Talking about Captain Cook's landing and the
new statue that they're planning to put up.
While on the subject of statues -

Did you know that Trump has fired the
Statue of Liberty? Yep. "You're Fired!"
He said to the statue.

In its place he's put up
a huge statue of himself.

I wonder what it will be called?

The Statue of Bigotry?

Foxy,

"Also, one moment you ask for my help and my
"skills" and next moment you tell me I
don't have the "wherewithall?"

I didn't ask for your help, I suggested that Paul needed it.
Suggest that you also get Grammarly or some such as you misspelt 'wherewithal'.

Issy, those chocs you were throwing, what were the wrapped in? I understand that you are in an advanced state of denial over these issues of war. You asked for evidence, I gave you evidence, you wont accept it, I can't help that. Nothing more can be done.

I like the jokes Foxy.

Paul,

You gave no evidence whatsoever to back up your lying statement that Australian soldiers threw bombs at children in Korea.

You are a Green, so therefore also a liar.

Issy, possibly you are consumed by guilt, and therefore in a state of total denial. Losing your marbles with anti Green attacks. War tends to do that sort of thing.

Find it hard to speak about the side track the Korean war is
Not sure we saw our troops throw bombs at children but every war is bad
My front yard, bit like me, is a bit crazy, see I fly the southern cross the boxing roo, and Australian army lest we forget
All with pride
Now yes support our troops forever
Do however remember a COMMUNIST Australian journalist [true filth] who verbally fought against us and help brainwash and torture our POWs
Wilfred Burchett?
See? this leftist marxist hates true communists too

Is Mise,

Don't ask someone to do something you're not
willing to hear.

On page 32 - you talk about my -
"frequently demonstrated skill of finding references"

And -
on page 45 - I suddenly don't have the
"wherewithal?"

I provided references. You didn't want the information.
Yet you continued baiting.

Little people it seems - need to belittle.

Hi Belly,

Someone earlier on posted that 'the enemy' were the ones who only commit war crimes, naming Muslims and Arabs or some such people, I can't be bothered finding the actual post. I simply made the point to that earlier poster, with my pacifist views, that our side/all sides do terrible things in war. As I said "war makes good people do bad things", and I stand by that opinion. Of course old Issy has to chime in with his not so in Korea, where he was a combatant. Not one to shy away I come back with the line "Australian soldiers threw bombs at children in Korea." I could have said the Boar War, WWI, WWII, Vietnam etc, it don't much matter. Throw, drop, fire, shoot, lob, don't much care about the terminology, call it unintended collateral damage, as some do, or call it an intended act of murder, the result is the same. I don't much matter if its you, or your mate, or one of you allies doing it, all are culpable, even if you didn't actually do the killing yourself. Then Issy wants to demand evidence, like he's running a court, and he's the Chief Justice. Am I demanding evidence of his alleged chocolate throwing or his alleged Greens are liars claim, no.

Just on Korea 1.6 million noncombatants died in that terrible war, something that can not, and should not, be expunged from history.
I will make those kind of statements when I like, and as often as I like, facts are facts, even though some like to sanitise history to suit themselves.

Just on Wilfred Burchett,

Burchett achieved a major scoop by interviewing the most senior United Nations POW (Korean War), US General William F. Dean, previously believed dead. In his autobiography Dean entitled a chapter "My Friend Wilfred Burchett" and wrote "I like Burchett and am grateful to him". He expressed thanks for Burchett's "special kindness" in improving his conditions, communicating with his family, and giving him an "accurate" briefing on the state of the war.

In his study of war correspondents, The First Casualty, Phillip Knightley wrote that "in Korea, the truth was that Burchett and Winnington were a better source of news than the UN information officers, and if the allied reporters did not see them they risked being beaten on stories"

Only know of Burchett from what I have read, some good, some bad, depends what side of the fence you are sitting on.

Foxy,

I didn't ask for your help, got it?

"Paul has failed to substantiate that ludicrous claim, perhaps you, ...with your frequently demonstrated skill at finding references,... might help him to back up or shut up"

If the above sarcasm went over your head then so be it.

Is Mise,

A bit of advice.

Keep your head high
And your middle-finger higher.

Don't take yourself so seriously,
No one else does.

Dear Belly,

The futility of war is
well documented. Questions about the behavior, abuses, and accountability are rarely answered. What nation or what politician wants to delve into those issues? However, paying attention in a
democracy to abuses is a moral obligation. It's also a
way to avoid repeating immoral mistakes.

I won't provide any more links. For me this discussion
has now well and truly run its course.

See you on another discussion.

Is Mise,
Good to see you calling Paul out on his lie. Despite your persistance he will not acknowledge his lie or apologize, the left have not the character to do that. But the fact remains that he cannot substanciate his claim. It will be noted by other posters.

Paul that helps and I see and understand the way it became a part of the thread
Lets be honest SOME are without reason or understanding
My reading of that man is far worse
But yes war is and always has been dreadful
Look at the MASS MURDER of Inias innocents by British troops in the so called salt wars
Too the films the USA want to kill wikileaks founder for showing us
murder clearly of clearly innocent folk
Syria right now and half the world watches and does nothing

Just for you HenryL, good to see you pop your head in, I'll repeat evidence that Issy was not willing to acknowledge.

Account of Corporal John Pluck Korean War veteran, clearing of a village. "It (the village) was heavily damaged; holed walls, sagging roofs, debris strewn between cottages (the result of allied shelling)....I heard a low moaning coming from one of these houses that had a shell hole in the roof....peering in I could make out the prone outlines of a man, a woman and several children coated in thick dust. A huge gash in the scalp of one of the children, a little girl, perhaps seven years old." Corporal Pluck carried her out, helpless, he handed her over to an old woman. He later heard the child had died the same day.

"I was 23 years old, a leader of men, but this disturbed me a great deal." Corporal John Pluck.

Now you can pull your head out.

Dear Paul,

Denying military misconduct is not a moral exercise
by any side. It happens as history has shown.
Much has been written on the subject by veterans
involved in the conflicts. The claims are not
ludicrous or lies. And they have occurred in even
more recent conflicts that our soldiers have been
involved in - like Afghanistan.

http://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/investigation-into-alleged-war-crimes-by-australian-soldiers-commences/