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The Forum > General Discussion > Why Multiculturalism not integration

Why Multiculturalism not integration

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Why Multiculturalism not intergration?

Post ww 2 migrants refugees knew they could have both and still do.
Why the change what good can come out of third generation migrants still living apart?
Are we, this country and others an experiment? is some group trying to see if we can be many countrys in one
Greeks Italians just about all in the first twenty years of post ww 2 refugees are while remaining true to their birth right as Aussie as any one
Who benefits by that term multi culture?
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 1:29:43 PM
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This thread is not about racism, we can put our heads in the sand and say no such thing exists, but it does in every country, only the race differed
It is about who thought Multiculturalism was a better way than integration
Some here, including a recent refugee from these pages, dislike me, because I refuse to even consider all Muslims are evil
But some are
We however see grandchildren of ww 2 migrants/refugees as Aussie as any one, but still having their national dress for their day, and much more
If some one [the UN?] is trying out its wish for one world on us why not integration
World wide unrest even terrorism from both right and some migrants is it worth considering other ways we can get along with each other
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 3:33:21 PM
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Belly don't you remember Al Grassby? It was his little plan to boost ALP voters among migrants. It bought some at a terrible cost to the nation & all of us.

It was no different to Richardson pandering to the Greenies, buying votes with special deals, that caused as much damage as the Multiculturalism scam.

As unionism collapsed in private industry they needed something to suck in more voters & this was their way.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 4:52:06 PM
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Hi Belly,

Our country is often described as a successful
multicultural society. And it is, in the
sense that people from all different backgrounds
have been able to live in harmony due to government
policies that expected both the dominant, and the minority
groups, to respect each others cultures and the
rule of law. Also multiculturalism was accepted as
a nation building project.

However, there is a predominant culture just as there is
a predominant language. And the political and cultural
institutions that govern the country are absolutely
critical to that attitude of harmony and tolerance.

We have a robust tolerance of difference in our society.
But to maintain this tolerance we have to have an
agreed framework which will protect the rights
and liberties of all. Loyalty, democracy, tolerance,
the rule of law
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 5:05:19 PM
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Foxy,

Strangely, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Certainly, more efforts should be made to integrate newer Australians into the working fabric of Australia, to ensure, for example, that women have good enough English to easily get by and to improve their educational and work opportunities.

I don't see, as an iron rule, that migrant communities create any problems, except the fringes of some Muslim groups. Vietnamese ? Latin Americans ? Filinos ? Koreans ? They're making their way and prospering, as they have every right to do.

Belly, is your concern about those new Australians connected in any way to your unfounded fear of world over-population ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 5:19:12 PM
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Dear Foxy,

I disagree with the idea posited by politicians, bureaucrats and business people that multiculturalism is some sort of social success story. A congeries of disparate ethnic groups that are each vying for status vis-a-vis competing ethnic groups is in my view a recipe for disaster in the long term.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 5:44:41 PM
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Dear Mr Opinion,

Outside Australia's indigenous people, we are all
immigrants or descendants of immigrants - some earlier
than others - but all with the experience of immigration
during the foundation of modern Australia.

Australia's immigration experience is also a broad one.
Originally it was Anglo-Celtic but after the war our
immigrants came increasingly from Europe. In more
recent times, they have again become more varied,
and grown considerably in numbers.

And all these immigrant communities have on the whole, made
successful contributions to Australian life.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 5:58:14 PM
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There is no such thing as 'successful' multiculturalism. There was absolutely no need for it in the first place; we could have just continued with a non-discriminatory immigration policy with 'successful' integration, which occurred in most cases.

Now, people are actively discouraged from integrating. Australia has become a nation of tribes with little common interests or beliefs between the tribes, despite every TV commercial having 'one of everything' interacting in backyards. It just doesn't happen.

Multiculturalism is one of the worst examples of social engineering that has been forced on us without our permission. And let's not lay the blame all at Al Grassby's feet: spiv though he was, he didn't have the power. Malcolm Fraser was in on the racket up to his armpits. He was Prime Minister when multiculturalism was officially forced on us. I remember the announcement on ABC radio as though it was yesterday
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 6:28:30 PM
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DearFoxy,

I'm not arguing about the points you make. What I am saying is that multiculturalism is a whole different kettle of fish in which the dissociation of ethnic communities along lines of race and culture is the accepted norm. My view is that multiculturalism contains the seeds of its own destruction because it promotes segregation and racial and cultural distinctiveness at the expense of national cohesion. I believe that we are seeing the breakdown of the ideals of multiculturalism beginning to take shape in Europe and we could see violence and hatred become the norm in the not too distant future.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 6:31:22 PM
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Dear Mr Opinion,

I'm more optimistic. I have lived through some
difficult times, as we all have, it's true.
However, that's part and parcel of growing up.
But there have
been so many positive times as well - they out
number the difficult ones. Also I can see that
my children are totally Australian and
undoubtedly their children will also be.

That's what happens to all migrants - they
eventually become very much a part of this
country and as do their children and future
generations. Ask any Greek, Italian, Chinese,
who live in this country how they see themselves
and how they feel when they go back and visit
the home of their parents. Their sense of belonging
nearly always ends up - in being a part of this
country and they feel like foreigners in the country
of their ancestors.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 6:57:16 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Time will tell. I'm not an optimist but I'm not a pessimist because I really don't care how things turn out. As a sociologist it's all part of the world of people that engages my attention and the social is what I like investigating and working out. It's this sort of stuff that makes have done my humanities degrees all worthwhile.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 7:10:11 PM
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Dear Mr Opinion,

Remember that you can't really compare the problems
in Europe with the success we've achieved in
Australia. Australia is different from Europe in
its approach to immigration - hence the reason
for our success. We took a different path. We
made immigration as a nation-building project.
We had/have a well-ordered immigration program
We had/have set policies. Very different from Europe.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 7:17:44 PM
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Dear Foxy,

The multicultural experiment has yet to be tested. A robust economy has kept a lot of problems under wraps. Wait until a major economic recession comes along or Australia goes to war against the motherland of one of our ethnic groups or one particular ethnic group elevates itself to a higher class status. And it will happen.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 8:23:02 PM
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Important Note:

Part 1. Multicultural does NOT mean 'One culture'.
- It means 'many cultures'.

Part 2. But there is a plan to create one new generic culture;
And 'racism' (destroy national sovereignty);
And 'climate change' (force globalism)

- Are the tools to make it happen. -

Part 3. So forget our country ever being whatever it was you thought it was;
Or whatever you hoped it would be;
Because that's OVER.

Maybe it was only ever a fantasy, and we were always marching towards this globalism thing and never even knew it.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 9:27:00 PM
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Multiculturalism is a word that describes something that doesn't exist.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 10:13:07 PM
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Sigh ...but I have to say it again: Australia is rooted.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 10:13:28 PM
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Hasbeen, just so you know I am still Labor to the bone always have been
Al Grasby, what a grub!
Criminal with Mafia links he remains one of my very best memory's
An ABC was it? black and white doco about Kings cross Sir grub walking camera on him Aussie knock about asked are you Al G, yes said the grub,he was recommended to use the services of a taxidermist!
Hated him loved the suggestion
Totally convinced multiculturalism is a plan, forced on us
Too separatism is in my view harming us all
Foxy not in any way ignoring your view, understand your parents hard times but
While most find a way to integrate some never will
The children and grand children of ww2 refugees share my concerns
Making one world if that is the intention should not force anything on us
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 5:22:32 AM
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Dear Belly,

I just don't get all this multi-cultural talk.
I think of myself as an Australian of Lithuanian
ancestry. Just as other Aussies think of themselves
as Australians of British ancestry, Scottish
ancestry, German ancestry, and so on. We're all Australians.
Most of us have ancestors who came from somewhere else.
Immigration has always been part of our history.

So what's the big deal. How long does someone have to be
in this country before you guys consider them to be
Australians? Or is it only those of Anglo-Celtic roots
that you consider the real deal? In that case check out
their history - and note where their roots came from -
they're one of the most mixed races on the face of this
earth due to the invasions of their lands and the
expansion of the Empire. Hell, even
the Queen has German ancestry.

As for those cretins who claim that the government
imposed multiculturalism on them that the government didn't
ask for their permission. Hey - well you elected that
government - you voted them in - and there was a worker
shortage at the time - migrants did your work for you. If
it wasn't for migrants you guys would still be a
cultural backwater.

Sorry Belly, but I get so sick and tired of being
made to feel like I don't belong here despite the
decades of contribution my family has made to this country.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 7:26:48 AM
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I just came across an article reminiscing about Bob Hawke's sloganeering for the 1990 election on moving from being the lucky country to the smart country. Since then we have moved to being the dumb country: dumb voters and even dumber politicians who continue with suicidal policies like multiculturalism and mass immigration of people totally unsuited to our needs and security. There are a lot of people in this country who would be on trial for treason in a real world.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 7:53:09 AM
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Australians are deliberately kept five years and one war behind the truth:

Eric Bogle:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cnFzCmAyOp8

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 8:25:33 AM
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All the various cultures are getting along just fine. The best part is that the kids of the migrants integrate beautifully into Australian values.....

http://ajn.timesofisrael.com/a-rapidly-spreading-crisis/
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 8:46:01 AM
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G'day HASBEEN...

Albert GRASSBY, the Riverina Mob's main political protector. If ever an individual needed to face a Trial, on conspiracy charges, it was him. And the naive Mr. Donald McKAY paid the ultimate price, for daring to think he could clean-up his beloved town of Griffith. May GRASSBY rot in hell!
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 9:32:37 AM
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mhaze,

Bullying is a serious problem in our schools.
Xavier College, in Kew - a Catholic School
is consistently fighting off bullying scandals.
My children went to Xavier.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 9:38:59 AM
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“The best part is that the kids of the migrants integrate beautifully into Australian values..…”

Yes. That’s why we still have third and fourth generation Australians calling themselves Greeks and Italians.

As for the shocking behaviour of a Muslim schoolboy towards a Jewish schoolboy, the Jews should be doing something about it, rather than just mumbling in a paper read only by Jews. They (the Jews) also need to start identifying with their nationality, not their religion.

You can pick the real Australians: they self-describe as Australian, not Italian-Australian, Greek-Australians or some other alien-Australian. It is also significant that you won’t find Anglo Australians describing themselves as British-Australian.

Moving away from the mores and culture of our British heritage has been a huge mistake. Of course, the 'Mother Country' has also crapped in its own nest, and is making an absolute fool of itself now. But, that's no excuse for us to trash our own culture as our disgraceful politicians have done.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 9:50:07 AM
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cont'd ...

mhaze,

Thanks for your link about anti-semitism.
However parents of not only Jewish kids
but all other parents as well have concerns
about not only bullying - attempts of
sexual abuse at their children's schools. Parent
vigilance is a must. Remember that female
teacher who fled to Israel and other cases?
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 9:54:48 AM
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o sung wo share your view about that slug and well informed then and know about his links to the Mafia he was hated even in my party always
Yes as is their right even ww2 refugees third generation offspring call them selves Greeks or what ever too
But are also as Aussie as us for sure
Multiculturalism is a fraud integration worked
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 10:39:22 AM
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If you want to see the ultimate result of multiculturalism, you need look no further than Yugoslavia & Bosnia and Herzegovina.

There even after decades & even centuries, & a fair bit of intermarriage, the result was ethnic war. At least there it was just 2 groups. You will see it even among the same ethnics like Arabs, when different strands of the same religion clash.

Imagine how much worse it will be in Oz when many different groups form changing alliances, with both different ethnicities & religions fighting for supremacy. God help our grand kids.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 10:49:54 AM
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Most immigrants are happy to be a contributing part to our society. We are really multinational; because multi-cult creates conflict with law, social values and government. One cult that that will not accept our laws and society is a branch of Islam extremism. Western society that has worked is based on Judaeo-Christian law and values, "love your neighbour as yourself". Conflict arises when Islam is introduced as currently in West Papua, where Islam threatens genocide of the native population of West Papua. In Islam the value as in dictatorships is "Might is right". Whoever holds the power dictates the law and values.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/07/warner-moment-why-wont-muslims-assimilate
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 10:51:22 AM
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Ttbn,

Maybe you've got a point, that even after generations, many Australians still think of themselves as having British, or Scottish or Irish or Welsh, roots. When will they abandon such divisive and out-moded views ?

Dear Foxy,

Good on you, and thank you to your parents for their contributions to make Australia what it is today. Where would we be without them ?

I started working in factories, a Maoist looking for the revolutionary working class, in the mid-sixties. Didn't find it. Even then, the great majority of actual workers that I came across were Yugoslav, Greek, Italian, Maltese - the Australians had moved up to be supervisors, etc. Amongst our women colleagues, there were still many Australians, but this was in the days when most women didn't have driving licences, got half-pay, etc. and when middle-class women and desperately-aspiring working-class women got the hell out and into teaching or nursing.

Of course, there are fringes of some ethnic groups who despise the notion of becoming Australian, on religious rather than ethnic/cultural grounds. But the vast, vast majority of newcomers since the War have tried, and are always trying, to work in with Australian society, no matter what word you use for it. They learn the common language, get their kids through school and university (sometimes at higher rates than the lazy kids of 'older' Australians), cause no particular trouble and live happily alongside other Australians, from all the lands on earth. Long may it continue.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 10:56:50 AM
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One only has to look at countries that have allowed multi cults to develop in their society to see how unending conflict exists. You build a society on mutual respect and personal responsibility and the dominant group ignores the rights of others and subject them to bullying, or death if they do not submit. Example Communism Numbers by country:
China: 82 million dead
USSR: more than 21 million dead
North Korea: 4.6 million dead
Vietnam: 3.8 million dead
Cambodia: 2.4 million dead
Afghanistan: 1.5 million dead
Yugoslavia: 1,172,000 dead
Germany: 815,000 dead
Mozambique: 729,000 dead
Ethiopia: 725,000 dead
Romania: 435,000 dead
Czechoslovakia: 262,082 dead
Venezuela: more than 252,000 dead
Poland: more than 235,000 dead
Hungary: 210,000 dead
Angola: 125,000 dead
Colombia: 105,419 dead
Albania: 100,000 dead
Rhodesia / Zimbabwe: more than 50,000 dead
Laos: 45,000 dead
Bulgaria: 31,150 dead
Cuba: 73,000 dead
Peru: 37,840 dead
Mongolia: 35,000 dead
Philippines: 22,799 dead
Greece: 15.401 dead
Nicaragua: 5.000 dead
Spain: at least 4,176 dead
Argentina: 1,501 dead
South Yemen: 1,000 dead
Israel: 83 dead
Uruguay: 66 dead
West Germany and West Berlin: 35 dead
United States: 10 dead

Islam murdered 84,000 in 2017 for not adhering to Allah shariah.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 11:24:30 AM
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Joe,

"Ttbn,

Maybe you've got a point, that even after generations, many Australians still think of themselves as having British, or Scottish or Irish or Welsh, roots. When will they abandon such divisive and out-moded views ?".

I thought I was saying the opposite: that Anglo Australians don't call themselves British-Australians - just Australians. And all of these 'contributions' made by immigrants were no more important or significant than those of the Australian-born, the originals of whom had a pretty tough time preparing the way for the Johnny-Come-Latelys, who did pretty bloody well out of it. Besides, we are not talking about immediate post-war immigrants; we are talking about far less savoury and non-conforming 'multicultis'.

As for people yammering that 'we are all immigrants': rubbish; the only people who are immigrants are those not born here, and there are too many of them.

Parents were immigrants? Big deal; you are not, and you are not going to get a minority-poor victim award
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 12:03:22 PM
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Dear Josephus,

Are you comparing Australia to your list of
countries? Please explain what communism has
to do with Australia?
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 12:08:34 PM
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My parents were Australian & born here.
My grandpaenta were one born in UK, one on board British ship enroute
to Australia, 2 born in Australia.
My Great grandparents all born in UK as far as I can tell.
When I went to Bath in UK I was very intrigued to find the street where
they lived. It was a moving experience.
However I consider myself to be very Australian, and I am sure that
many 3rd generation migrants feel the same, provided they have done
it in their brain.

Where it is falling down is that those that follow Islam are told
that they must not make Australians their friends.

“They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you
would be equal; therefore do not take friends from among them, until
they emigrate in the way of Allah; then, if they turn their backs,
seize them and kill them wherever you find them; do not take for
yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.” (Qur’an 4:89)

It is only the naive that do not believe that many moslem treat these
verses seriously and as being something from history.
The Koran in fact calls on unbelievers to be killed wherever you find them.

Verses like the above are taken very seriously by moslems especially
religious ones. I suspect most put it aside for later.
That they do pull away from Australians can be seen from time to time.
There is hope from what I have read in that many moslems are
withdrawing from Islam, or they just stop going to the mosque.
It has become a matter of concern in the religious circles worldwide.
The reasons given are often embarressment of the terrorist attacks.
I did see a figure I found hard to believe; 46% of Saudi Arabians are
not religious, but just do not proclaim it as the punishment is death.

Many say we should ignore that as it is just history.
Many police in Paris might well disagree.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 1:58:49 PM
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Please explain what communism has
to do with Australia?
Foxy,
It breeds those pseudo academic parasites we're sharing our taxes with.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 2:45:24 PM
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Foxy, My point was by introducing a dominating culture into an established settled culture has led to murder of thousands.

Islam believes in dominating a culture, which we can expect similar to the record of Islam in 2017.

The cultural change agenda of GetUp is to introduce communism and we see their violence against those that oppose them. GetUp wishes to destroy capitalism and democracy by the use of extreme climate scare mongering. They operate as a religious cult, gaining uninformed followers. They promote cultural change, and they legitimise violence to achieve their goals.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 3:14:38 PM
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Bazz this kid at eight years of age visiting relos in Sydney was told by Italian migrant kids they intended to take over the country
Age 16 [falsely put up to 18] went to a factory as truck offsider to unload, all Greek youth about 20 years old
They told me our girls lets say had zero morals
By 19, back for a time in Sydney working on a four story building, only Aussie fine group of Italians, four about my age
I threw the v we used for the peace sign at a girl walking by and looking up
That four shouted Viva Mussolini
Soon shouted down by those who had been here nearly 30 years
Yes enclaves from those people still exist here but would without fear walk there at midnight
Not in far too many places
Yes we do welcome new comers but some, even after 20 years, would not know what we said
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 3:26:26 PM
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Dear Joe,

Thank You for your lovely, kind words. Me and
my family have never seen ourselves as victims
in this country. Dad raised me to believe that -
life is what you make of it. To take responsibility.
I'm simply sharing their and my experiences that
we've lived through and I'm pleased to see that
some others are doing likewise because it is
obvious that some people here need a reminder about
Australia's real identity. They seem to have
forgotten its strength.

Some people's rhetoric here ignores the truth that
Australia has been built on contributions from
immigrants and refugees for hundreds of years and
that Australia's "strength" lies in how welcoming its
people are. It seems that some need a reminder of
who we really are.

Again - Thank You.

Dear Josephus,

Comparing Australia to your list of countries to me
is not rational. We are a representative democracy,
We have a predominant culture and a predominant
language and an institutional framework that protects
order and the rule of law.

Communism just as facism has never presented a major
challenge to the established order of Australia.

And as for your concerns regarding Muslims? Well,
according to the 2016 Australian Census the number
of people who self-identify as Muslims are - 604,200
people or 2.6% of the total Australian population.

Your over all fears are unfounded.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 5:24:43 PM
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The attacks on Jewish kids are being characterised as 'bullying' by those trying to minimise it.

I suspect the characterisation would have been different if the 'bullies' weren't Mohomedians.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 5:30:27 PM
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Multiculturalism doesn't work in non-western countries so why do people think it should work here when it so clearly doesn't. Unless of course people believe enclaves are a success story !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 5:51:08 PM
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mhaze,

No one is trying to minimize attacks on kids.
Bullying is bullying no matter who does it and
attacks be they on Jewish kids, Catholic kids,
Muslim kids, or any other kids, is abhorrent.

I don't understand your specific kind of bigotry,
but I do acknowledge your total commitment to it.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 6:02:54 PM
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Individual,

When you suggest that multiculturalism 'doesn't work', do you mean that it has some wrinkles, like any other social arrangement ? Do you see problems with Greeks, Italians, Maltese, Poles, Lithuanians, Yugoslavs, etc. ? i.e. fundamental, or fundamentally irresolvable, problems ? I don't.

Of course, there are problems with some sections of the Muslim populations, as in the rest of the world. Adherents of authoritarian ideologies, whether Muslims or socialists or rat-bag Christians, etc., usually have no desire to mix with 'outsiders' who they would rather 'subtract' in order to improve or even perfect society, 'for its own good'.

In the nineteenth century, the authorities were very hostile on the Fenians, spying on their meetings, arresting their leaders. Of course, they were planning for a free Ireland, a quite legitimate objective, and that mucks up my case somewhat. But there's always been out-groups, not even necessarily on ethnic grounds.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 7:13:52 PM
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My son was attacked by a bunch of Muslims in Alawa, Sydney & suffered his skull fractured in 4 places. This was nor bullying, this was Muslim ethnic cleansing of their desired suburbs, an unpleasant side effect of Multiculturalism.

You don't need multiculturalism to have bullying, just be a stranger. My father after the war was a trouble shooter. Once he had sorted a branch we moved on to the next. I went to 17 different schools. I suffered bullying at every new school, & some bad bashings. This was in country towns mostly, & no ethnics were involved, just bullying Ozzies.

At age 10 dad organised fighting lessons for me. Fighting not boxing, so I could really defend myself. After that, when at each new school the seniour bully would pick a fight with me, I could thrash him. They then had a problem, when I was not interested in being the new bully, they did not know where to put me.

Fortunately dad changed jobs, & I had my last 4 years in the very good Young High school, or I would never have got to uni. It was nice to be part of the kids, rather than the stranger.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 9 October 2019 9:34:09 PM
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Dear Hassie,

My nephew was attacked by several bullies on
the campus of the Southern Cross University at
Lismore and bashed so badly that he'had to
have a plate put into his head. And this was
because he came to the aid of a young girl.
Today he still suffers from the repercussions
of that act.

My own boys were bullied at Xavier College.
A private Catholic School here in Melbourne.
My husband enrolled them into self-defense
classes and one son did exceptionally well
earning his black belt. Things changed dramatically
after that for him. Not only was he able to come
to his brother's aid - but he ended up being asked
to coach some of the other boys in the art.
Gaining a great deal of respect from both teachers
and the kids.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 10 October 2019 1:21:51 AM
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Human beings have always been racist, we know, unless we are blind, some parents have always and will always teach the kids at home to hold their racist views
Those doing so in Islamic homes are in fact hurting every Muslim, but they are doing it
If the truth be known I think one planet one people AFTER IT WAS achieved, would be great
But if the dying thing [it is dying look at Europe] we know as Multiculturalism was to bring us together it failed
The failure is not by most Migrants but the number who have failed, world wide, have fueled a fire that will harm us all
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 10 October 2019 6:00:26 AM
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Dear Belly,

I don't think how 2.6% of our population can harm us
as long as we insist (it's not an option) on
maintaining our institutional framework and rule of law
which requires all of us to obey.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 10 October 2019 8:17:30 AM
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Belly,

" .... one planet one people ..."

And which people would they be ? Yours ? Everybody else 'subtracted' ?

Can you see where such thinking may lead ? That a one-world-government is just as likely to degenerate into a fascist dictatorship of the strongest group ? Has it crossed your mind that this might be a possibility ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 10 October 2019 8:45:43 AM
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Yes it is Loudmouth it sure is
But if it was not? if it said every race has the same rights, every one the same needs for health education housing food
We humans right now Trump the thing running Britain , and a host of others are evidence we could not organise a bet at Randwick race course
Kurds dying in the next few weeks prove again you can not trust humans to get it right
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 10 October 2019 11:01:14 AM
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Dear Belly,

I really don't understand why this sudden concern.
I look around my neighbourhood I live in a quet
court with my neighbours being - Sri-Lankans,
Italians, Chinese, Lebanese, Macedonians, Egyptians,
and Lithuanians. All Australians, all living happily
together. No problems.

Australia is a nation of many different backgrounds
and cultures. It has been for hundreds of years.
People will react - depending on how you act. How you
treat them. We have mixed with Europeans, African-Americans,
Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Germans, Brits,
Spaniards, Russians, and the list goes on.

As far as I know - our entire globe is a combination of
many cultures and people and today - they do tend to
move from place to place looking for a better life.
We've travelled through various countries and it's amazing
how many people we've met from countries from all over
the world.

So take heart - Australia will not only survive but thrive.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 10 October 2019 12:07:19 PM
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Loudmouth,
yes, the Greeks have settled down after their pension payments to Greece were stopped. The Italians are Europeans as are the rest of the ones you mentioned. They did not try to change this Nation like those from African Countries. The European settlers made this nation, the Africans want to ruin it !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 10 October 2019 1:35:29 PM
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Individual,

How many Africans do you know?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 10 October 2019 1:40:21 PM
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Foxy, have a look at countries that are ethnic and religious cleansing around the world and you will find Islam and communism involved.
Posted by Josephus, Thursday, 10 October 2019 1:45:00 PM
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Dear Josephus,

I prefer to look at countries that have restraints
on government power; tolerance of dissent, free
access to information; and diffusion of power.

"The greatest of a nation can be judged by the way it
treats its people."
(apologies to Mahatma Gandhi).
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 10 October 2019 2:07:55 PM
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Foxy lets be honest you are a nice woman and too a caring woman
Things get overlooked by such as you,its often a blessing we have such as you
However a reality we dare not neglect exists too
I will wander from the threads intent, to deliver some of that truth and why I think integration worked
Deep breath , the exit of Britain from the EU, is based on the EU its people, wanting a right to say who comes to their country
Be honest, it is not just Muslims
Some from most groups settle down [harsh? yes but true] to live in squalor on Social Security apart from the guest country
UNLESS the center and left try, to think like the millions of voters who have left, because they will not live with this, we are going to see ever rigt governments and be killed by our own good intentions
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 10 October 2019 4:25:17 PM
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Again, it may sound like propaganda of the right but it is truth
How would we be treated if we lived in a mob inside a Muslim city on their social welfare? for twenty thirty or forty years? and could barely if at all speak the language?
Cruel thought? why
Why not every one at least, try living together working not sitting down on our money meant for those unable to help them selves
What is the good of non-conservatives having the best policy's voters reject at every election
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 10 October 2019 4:31:28 PM
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Dear Foxy,

It's obvious that you see only merit in immigration (probably influenced by your own experience) but in doing so you fail to see that there is a dark side to immigration in Australia over the last several decades.

Two factors need to be taken into account (1) Australia has a very fragile environment which can only support a sustainable population of 8-9 millions in the absence of technology and science, and (2) the high rates of immigration over the past three decades have been part of a governmental program aimed to increase development as a consequence of increasing population pressure, a form of social engineering that really only benefits politicians, developers and the business community. None of it has actually been for the benefit of the nation.

So the sum of the matter is that politicians, developers and the business community have been destroying our environment for their own profit. Jared Diamond has criticised the Chinese as a particular threat to the Australian environment, saying that they are wealthy migrants who bring in lots of cash looking for a First World lifestyle; this makes the developers and business community happy but it imposes an increasing burden on a fragile environment. Or, as I would say, a prime example of how increasing global consumerism is causing total environmental destruction.

So, there might be an upside to immigration but there is also a downside. We need to achieve a balance but unfortunately the scales have tilted heavily towards the downside.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Friday, 11 October 2019 6:08:32 AM
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Mr Opinion, went to ABS found how many people of Chinese extraction are in Australia one point two million
I knew my thoughts would not be popular, never wanted it to look like I find near all migrants a problem
But not ignoring a truth, some are, some are even in the wrong country because they have zero respect for us
Some are here for our social welfare others by working hard are very well off ok by me
But why should we treat them [those without respect] differently than we would be treated in their country
Posted by Belly, Friday, 11 October 2019 6:49:28 AM
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Dear Belly and Mr Opinion,

Before entering a mosque visitors are asked to
take off their shoes. This is a sign of respect.
If you have a strong objection to walking in your
socks, don't enter the mosque.

Before becoming an Australian you will be asked to
subscribe to certain values. If you have strong objections
to those values, don't come to Australia.

It is important to explain our values, explain why they
are important and engage leadership they respect to
assist in this process. Ultimately, however it is as
important that they know that there is only one law and
it is going to be enforced whether they acknowledge its
legitimacy or not.

Of course I realise that it will be a problem if we
have a second generation - the children of immigrants who
have come to Australia - in a twilight zone where the values
of their parents old country have been lost but the values
of the new country not fully endorsed.

To deal with this we must clearly state the values of
Australia and explain how we expect them to be respected.
I suspect there would be more respect for those values
if we made more of the demanding requirements of
citizenship. No one is going to respect a citizenship that
is so undemanding that is asks nothing. In fact, our
citizenship is quite a demanding obligation.
It demands loyalty, tolerance and respect for fellow citizens
and support for a rare form of Government - democracy.

We are more likely to engender respect by emphasizing the
expectations and the obligations that the great privilege
of citizenship brings.

We have a robust tolerance of difference in our society.
But as I have kept stressing and keep stressing - to maintain
this tolerance we have to have an agreed framework which
will protect the rights and liberties of all.

And we are asking our citizens - all our citizens -
to subscribe to that framework. This is not optional.
Loyalty, democracy, tolerance, the rule of law.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 7:57:50 AM
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How many Africans do you know?
Foxy,
Many !
Posted by individual, Friday, 11 October 2019 10:24:42 AM
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Individual,

I don't believe you.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 10:46:54 AM
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cont'd ...

Unless you mean whites from South Africa.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 10:49:42 AM
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Foxy those ww2 migrants did get information on how to be sociable with us
These days that filthy tool minority's use to get their way PC stops such in depth teaching
We are not talking about all, or near it
Lets think about this
What was wrong with integration
What is better about Multiculturalism
Why not some integration
Why not in Europe and here stop building enclaves for them selves
In Europe those enclaves are often slums
And from those slums terrorist often come to murder
Posted by Belly, Friday, 11 October 2019 11:01:51 AM
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Foxy,
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for you. It must be hard to be so stupid !
Posted by individual, Friday, 11 October 2019 11:08:03 AM
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Individual,

I may be stupid - but then when i read your
posts I feel so much better.

Ah, the words that fall out of your mouth.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 1:20:34 PM
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Hello All,
I remembered reading something written by a Danish Phychologist named Nicolai Sennels.
I went searching for it and found it again.

Having reread it I realise here we are all talking in ignorance.
He worked in the Danish prison system and did detailed interviews with
150 muslim prisoners, young and old.
I suggest that anyone contributing here should read his writings.
He explains how muslims react differently than how nonmuslims react
and why they do. Unless you read it your opinions are distorted.

http://tinyurl.com/y5hjyr4w

It will take a while to read but is well worth it.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 11 October 2019 1:21:39 PM
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Bazz, it is easy to see that the problem of Western Nations industrial success is a problem to the backward paranoid culture of Islam; that they at the UN are pushing the agenda of extreme climate change because it justifies their paranoia to bring down Western culture influenced by Christians and Jews: their imagined enemy. They will not assimilate happily, as is evident in the Nations in which they are dominant.
Posted by Josephus, Friday, 11 October 2019 2:38:54 PM
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Bazz a truth we all every faith are driven to live in ways that may in the end bring about hate'
If we man up ban all faiths then we benefit
While I am a protector of most Muslims in my view their faith is still in the middle ages
Back then they had a much more civilized way that today
A faith telling you to lie to others asking you to kill others[and in the end they all do] is not worth pursuing
Read other than right wing hate stuff, about the mess France and many parts of Europe have become, include areas of Britain and you will shake your head
Never reward blind hate with friendliness or your hand will be cut off
Posted by Belly, Friday, 11 October 2019 2:57:08 PM
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Belly whose culture sanctions cutting off hands?
Posted by Josephus, Friday, 11 October 2019 3:03:33 PM
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Dear Bazz,

You do realise I hope that Nikolai Sennels wrote
his book about criminal Muslims. Exremists,
fundamentalists. Ordinary people of any religion
are not usually card-carrying extremists, fundamentalists,
or criminals. These guys who are - have distorted views
and their own interpretations of their religion. As all
deranged criminals do.

Islam is one of the world's major relligions.
It claims the allegiance of a fifth of the entire human
population. Many Westerners think often think of Islam
as an Arab religion, most Muslims are not Arabs.

The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia and India
and there are even large concentrations in China and the
previous Soviet Union.

Islam is the second largest faith in Europe after
Christianity, and it competes with Christianity in many
black African countries.

Don't confuse fundamentalism with what is practiced by
most Muslims who live in different countries, having
different cultures, languages, and so on. The pictures
you see in the media is what is news-worthy rather than
what many Muslims actually practice.

Do you know any Muslims?

I do.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 3:04:57 PM
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Josephus,

Read the Bible.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 3:07:07 PM
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Bazz,

The IRA - (Irish Republican Army) they were Christian
and criminal. Look at what they did. Don't forget
the Mafia. And the other criminal gangs (Russian)
(Triads) (White Supremacists) et al. Is their thinking
that of normal people?

And look at Christian Germans - what did they do to the Jews?

The history is full of lunatic fringes fighting and
killing each other of all religions.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 3:15:30 PM
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F oxy,

You're right ! We shouldn't cut people's hands off. Or enslave people. Or behead them for what we might consider barely crimes at all. Or take more than one partner and slough off a wife when she no longer pleases us. Or marry off our daughters at the first sign of puberty to a rich family. Like all those terrible things from thousands of years ago in the Bible.

Or in the practical application of the Koran today.

So let's condemn all of those outmoded and backward practices forthrightly and with courage, no matter what the consequences might be.

Good on you, Foxy.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 11 October 2019 3:22:42 PM
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Foxy, I am Christian and a reader of the teachings of Christ, where does the New Testament sanction the Church to cut off the hands of another person?

The pagan Roman Catholic Church may have done that in history, but it is not the law of Christ.
Posted by Josephus, Friday, 11 October 2019 3:34:52 PM
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I take it then that you did not read the linked article.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 11 October 2019 4:01:14 PM
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Bazz,

I did read it. Hence my previous reply to you.
The author was talking about criminals.
Besides not all Muslims follow the religion
in exactly the same way. It all depends on
their what teachings they follow, on their culture,
and what sect they belong to.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 October 2019 5:22:01 PM
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Bazz, Foxy does not read the Koran or hadiths. All written about or by one Arab war Lord and his world view. In Mohamed's view women are breeding animals like bitches and rate on the same level. A Muslim wife accused of infidelity was set ablaze and the police took no action, because it is culturally justifiable under shariah. She had committed a suspected crime against Allah's law so must suffer the punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_burning
Posted by Josephus, Friday, 11 October 2019 7:45:03 PM
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"Bride burning has been recognized as an important public health problem in India, accounting for around 2500 deaths per year in the country."

...Well you learn something new every day.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 12 October 2019 2:25:50 AM
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Any week, maybe any day, we read as we do this morning of another terrorist murder
And know even if we do not want to, mostly it was done by some one who came to the west to live with us, in an enclave
Some will tell me [Josephus]his God is the only one
Others not his have murder done in their name
RUBBISH with no God we could live together, or could we
What is so wrong about inclusiveness integration not trying to make one country a hundred different ones
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 12 October 2019 5:55:12 AM
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Joe,

Can you imagine saying what you've posted here
in real life? If you can - then I guess people walk out
of a room when you speak. Finger-pointing at Muslims
is not what I expected from you of all people.
Especially when the Christian Bible has some very
horrific bits in it as well - yet only extremists
of any religion would twist those words to suit their own
political agendas.

When your religion becomes a mouthpiece for a political agenda ceases to be a religion.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 12 October 2019 9:05:38 AM
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Foxy,

Straw man argument ?

No, I don't believe that the vast majority of Muslims would go out and enact any of the brutalities demanded of them in the Koran, any more than Christians or Jews would go out and put three-thousand-year-old barbaric measures exhorted on them in the Bible, especially the obsolete three- and four-thousand-year-old Old Testament, into practice. I don't see even the most observant Jews in Israel enslaving anybody or executing adulterers, etc., they're vastly more civilized than that now.

In fact, I have enough faith in the goodness of people, Muslim, Jews, Christians, atheists, that they may wear their beliefs lightly and have no particular ill-will against any of their neighbours.

And you know that. Please stop trying to pigeon-hole people.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 12 October 2019 9:34:28 AM
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Belly's ideal world has no religion. Well that has been tried. Try USSR and China and North Korea, all religions banned. Belly look above to how many murdered because of their religion in the last 100 years by Communism.

The only hope is to have a society of zombies, no opinions, no philosophy, no world view. That would even exclude Belly, although perhaps a zombie world view would come close. Belly give up! you have a strong world view that causes conflict with other atheists. It takes more than a religion to make society. Australia is a diverse society of opinion, and we can live together; it is just those that want to murder those of differing opinion we have trouble with.
Posted by Josephus, Saturday, 12 October 2019 9:35:35 AM
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Well, Foxy you may have read the article but it does not seem to have sunk in.
True they were convicted criminals he was interviewing but that was
the point; he was looking for the reason muslims commit more crimes
than other people commit. eg
He explained why they over react to perceived insults.
They do it on the large scale as well as the small scale.
ie countries over react as well as individuals.
It is meaningless to say that they all do not attack, but it doesn't
have to be all of them, just enough of them.
What was the figure up to end July this year ?
34,000 terrorist killings ! or was it 84,000, I have forgotten.
Doesn't matter it was damn large.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 12 October 2019 12:17:39 PM
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Josephus been around the block and never expected anything different from you
What if I am right? no God ever existed
We then are in part governed by rule they set down
The very same people who produced pedophiles in their Gods Church
Again not every one of faith is bad but some Muslims act on behalf of a God that never existed in a murderous insane way
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 12 October 2019 12:18:10 PM
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Josephus,

Where does it say in the Bible about the cutting off
of hands?

Try Mathew 5.29-30

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands
and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given after he says
that anyone who looks with lust at any woman commits
adultery.

There's also other awful passages in not only Matthew,
Mark Luke and John but the rest of the Bible as well.

Joe,

When you stop putting people into pigeon-holes yourself
you'll be in a better position to give advice to others.

Bazz,

Fundamentalism has erupted in the Islamic world in
general and in the Middle East in particular.
However the West needs to take responsibility for this as well.
fundamentalist revivals, in whatever religion, take
place in times when social changes have led to turmoil,
uncertainty, and the erosion of familiar values.

When people find themselves confused, threatened or even
appalled at changing conditions. They may see a " return to
basics" as a solution.

It is not surprising therefore that Islamic
fundamentalism has
surged in societies like Iran,
which has experienced wrenching social
change as a result of their oil wealth. Some of these
societies had previously remained culturally fairly static
for generations - in some cases, for centuries. Then in less
than the space of a single life span, they were thrust into a
world of airports and highways schools and television factories
and power plants - flooded with foreign advisors officials,
and entrepreneurs. These new comers behaved in a variety
of ways that deeply offend the locals.

The principal foreign enemy of the fundamentalists in the
" Great Satan" the United States. Their own governments they
claim are often used as mere pawns in America's geopolitical
strategy - a strategy in which the interests of ordinary Muslims
count for nothing.

Despite their antipathy to the US the
fundamentalists are concerned mainly with conditions
in their own countries.

Islamic fundamentalism, like the Protestant ethic, arises out
of specific social and cultural conditions - that is
something that needs to be understood - before blaming
the religion.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 12 October 2019 1:07:20 PM
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Foxy, you show ignorance of who is doing the action. It is hyperbole referring to the extremities one could go to stop sexual acts and sexual lust. These are extreme acts on oneself. In other words it is self discipline, it has nothing to do with taking violent action on another person. Obviously you do not understand hyperbole.
Posted by Josephus, Saturday, 12 October 2019 2:33:08 PM
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Foxy said;
Islamic fundamentalism, like the Protestant ethic, arises out
of specific social and cultural conditions

In the west it is the refusal of the general population to comply
with the sharia rules or prevents them from compliance.
They get very angry if someone calls Mohammad a pedophile or a
genocidal war lord.
The mildest reaction is for non-muslims to call you a Islamaphobe.

Many feel disconnected from our law and the Koran permits the murder
of someone who refuses Islam.
Some refuse to stand in our courts.
Their anger has led to murder many times.
Ask the Paris police.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 12 October 2019 3:55:56 PM
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Bazz,

Give it a rest.

You're coming across as a weirdo.
A nutcase.

All you ever do is complain and attack Muslims
online. Most rational people feel - I wouldn't want to
be friends with someone like that in real life.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 12 October 2019 4:07:34 PM
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We however seem to want to ignore we are asked to be nice and except behavior from a few, few too many, that would quite honestly see us murdered in the country they came from
Be honest , if some of us settled in say Pakistan Iran or Saudi Arabia, it surely is clear? we would have to live with in their rules?
So what if different for some who come here
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 12 October 2019 4:21:45 PM
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Being nice hasn't done us any better in recent times than being not nice as some centuries ago !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 12 October 2019 5:18:59 PM
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Dear Belly,

So what is different from some who come here?

What is different is that we hold to democratic
principles. We are tolerant, and we have an
institutional framework, and the rule of law that
we expect ALL to abide by - those who don't will end
having appropriate legal action taken.

We are not a conflict zone and fundamentalists
amongst us are a minority.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 12 October 2019 5:19:57 PM
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Individual,

That's not true. We have grown and matured as a nation
and today most outmoded words and behavior is considered
no longer acceptable to most people.

It was not until the 1970s that the Ocker Aussie was
packaged for world consumption in films and comics, but
once done, the exaggerated image of "Bazza (Barry) Mackenzie"
became one which many Australians were no longer so proud of.

This critical self-consciousness had become more and more
apparent in the late 1960s, and forced both politicians and
the public to revise not only policies but also many of their
long-held and cherished notions about themselves and the
rest of the world.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 12 October 2019 5:29:28 PM
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Belly,
Multiculturalism is a philosophy which rates original culture ahead of national loyalty, and which fosters seperate development to give a federation of ethnic cultures, not one community.

This policy was imposed upon us by our politicians without any discussion or input from the voting public. Firstly by Whitlam and followed by the Fraser government which endorsed the policies.

Since you started this thread, and have put forward quite a few views but have not made it clear where you stand or how you would correct the problems that MC has created, I would like you to state clearly as to how you believe we can correct the situation.

Foxy,
I agree with what you say, on page 10, but how do you propose those sentiments are to be carried out as you endorse the current MC policies. Surely that would have to mean much tougher law enforcement unless immigration restrictions are implemented upon certain groups.

Joe,
Am interested to learn how you think we can correct the present situation and create more harmony in our country.

My apologies for not commenting earlier but have been busy with visitors.
Posted by HenryL, Saturday, 12 October 2019 6:32:39 PM
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Ah well Foxy we will have to disagree.
You are indeed tolerant of the intolerant.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 12 October 2019 10:24:55 PM
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interested to learn how you think we can correct the present situation and create more harmony in our country.
HenryL,
The gradual reintroduction of a National Service would be a good start. Too many people are not contributing but ask for excess in return !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 13 October 2019 1:58:28 AM
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Henry L my view is in plain sight
I like many/most have the view it has been imposed on us, by the very same people you may think did it
It is not going to work, only one side in the case of one faith, has no intention of living our way
Again tell me be honest now! if I walked in the streets of Saudi Arabia dressed in thongs and stubbys would I not be imprisoned?
At the least?
I think I know separatism is driving world wide condemnation of the Islamic faith
I think I know, 20 years from now refugees will not be welcomed in western countrys to build slums and live apart
In fact read about NORWAY a country that went beyond bravery to save its Jews from the Nazis
See its we have had enough actions right now
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 13 October 2019 6:30:49 AM
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Henry,

'The present situation' ? Unless you mean some tiny fringe elements within the Muslim population, I don't see much disharmony.

Australia has an immigration policy under which most immigrants find work and then, thankfully, add to our stagnant population. Wonderful.

Like any humanitarian country, Australia has a refugee policy, an annual quota - which, incidentally, is far greater, for our population, than New Zealand's. It mustn't be much fun to be a refugee, since by definition a refugee would rather stay in their own country in peace and quiet without being threatened with death or torture. So they have to flee: that's the definition of a refugee. But uprooted from one's own country, a refugee may not speak the language or have skills to settle in another country. So the government here has a responsibility to ensure that those refugees can operate effectively in their new country: there should be effective full-language programs and skills training, housing schemes, etc. Given how piddly the intake is, I don't see that as a huge burden.

If you mean ethnic enclaves, yes, I've lived in or near ethnic enclaves, of Australian-born people, and thy seem to be quite happy. I've lived in areas with a high Greek population (actually it was only about 12 %) and in New Zealand, areas with high Polynesian populations. They didn't seem to have any problems mixing with other people. Perhaps you should try it :)

Immigrants and refugees find housing wherever they can, with affordability a high priority. Naturally, they also seek to live near other people from their own ethnic groups, as Australians do in London. I don't see much problem with that. Yes, yes, I know, they should speak English when they are on 'our' buses, and try to not look different. But hearing other languages and seeing people looking different from me, is fine with me. Wonderful, in fact. Welcome to the world.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 13 October 2019 8:39:04 AM
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Anyone know how the Turks and Kurds are integrating and multiculting? We are just beginning to see how ridiculous and dangerous multiculturalism is to Australia. Australia has either to drop multiculturalism as a policy - actually do so it so that it is quite clear that the nonsensee is over; or, stop sticking its nose into countries where these turbulent and highly emotional immigrants come from.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 13 October 2019 10:50:51 AM
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Ttbn,

What, do you mean that the US shouldn't invade Iraq again ? Completely agree, but it's a bit late for that.

Do you know of any great turmoil in Australia involving Turks, or Kurds ? Or do you mean they simply shouldn't exist, and neither should any other non-Anglo group already here ? That they should be either expelled or 'subtracted' ?

'Yeah, why don't they speak English on the buses ? Our buses ? Yeah, why don't they dress like proper people ? And eat proper food. While we're at it, let's ban inter-marriage between ethnic groups too. That'll show the bastards.'

Is that your bottom line ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 13 October 2019 11:14:10 AM
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America told us lies to invade Iraq, it never should have stepped foot in that country
It fought with then did deals to MURDER the Kurds, America can not be trusted and must leave the middle east
To Trumps mate Putin
Current invasion ensures even more refugees, America should take them All, they made every one of them homeless
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 13 October 2019 11:39:56 AM
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Oh dear.

What's wrong with us humans that we can't seem to
get along. Is it a football mentality - unless
you belong to the same club - you're the enemy.
Look at religion - the history is full of religious
wars. Taking sides in the name of our God. Mine is
better than yours. Mine is the true religion. How
often have we heard that.

We've gone through World Wars to end all wars.
We've continued our fighting. We've invaded other
countries. And our weaponry has increased as has
our capabilities to kill people.

We now have nuclear weapons - and unless we stop and
think about what we're doing - we have the capability
of destroying our civilisation.

How about we divert our unprecedented energy and resources
to the real problems that face us - including poverty,
disease, overpopulation, injustice, oppression,
and the devastation of our natural environment.

Why don't we try to enhance the life on the bright and
lovely planet on which billions of us share our adventure.

Or is that asking too much. My parents survived the
second world war. I don't want my grand-children to have to
die in another war.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 13 October 2019 12:12:52 PM
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Belly,

No, I don't think the US should get out of the Middle East at all, and now that they're sending troops to safer Saudi Arabia, they'll still be there. Pity about the Kurds. Puzzle: why abandon the Kurds and then send troops to defend the vile Saudi regime ? Is Trump planning a Mecca Twin Towers ?

No, they started so much of it all by invading Iraq, and from then on, they have owned the problems. The Kurds fought and died to help them with their problems, and now are being betrayed. The Yanks, having initiated so much of the problem, should in all decency stay until the bitter end.

Unless, of course, 'patriotism' prevails ? i.e. look after your own arse, no matter what damage you caused to other peoples'. Gutless wonders.

I suppose we shouldn't have expected any better from the Yanks - they didn't join in the First World War until almost the last year; and didn't come to the defence of Britain and Europe until they were attacked themselves two years after the Nazis (and the Russians) invaded Poland. And then, of course, they pissed off out of Vietnam. Unreliable 'friends'.

Lest we forget.
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 13 October 2019 12:58:22 PM
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Dear Foxy,

It's all part of our extinction event. We just can't help driving ourselves into extinction.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 13 October 2019 1:58:38 PM
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The single greatest weakness in Australia's MultiCulturalism is all the exemptions granted to <insert-label> cultural groups...

Each exemption claimed in legislation by our government(s) is a prejudicial diminishing of our equally shared legal rights and legal responsibilities.

Principle exclusion is where compensations as awarded by courts in accordance with "on just terms" as required by our Constitution, in particular with section:

51 (xxxi) the acquisition of property on just terms from any State or
person for any purpose in respect of which the Parliament has
power to make laws;

.
Posted by polpak, Sunday, 13 October 2019 2:03:34 PM
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Joe,

I don't care who America invades. America is not my country.

They shouldn't be in Australia. I would prefer that Australia had remained strictly Anglo, most definitely.

I don't travel on buses these days but, yes, I do object to people living in Australia not speaking English, particularly to children, who have a reasonable chance of fitting in. Yes. I find it bizarre, and irritating, to see people wearing alien traditional garments unless they are tourists. No, I have no interest in who anybody marries.

I suspect you might be trying to shame me, Joe. You think that your accusatory questioning will make me feel uncomfortable - like, gee whiz, I don't want people to think I'm a bad person. I'm not one of those pansies who allow themselves to be bullied into silence
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 13 October 2019 2:13:46 PM
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Ttbn,

People from all nations are here already. They have as much right - as much right - as you do to stay here. Maybe more, if you could conceivably be a dual citizen from some hole-in-the-wall corner of Britain (presumably Britain ?) If you are a dual citizen, I would be more than happy to attend your send-off :)

Maybe one day. you might contribute as much as some of those fellow-Australians do. Perhaps help out at your offspring's wedding to one of 'them'.

There's nothing illegal about being a bigot, nor the right to be pig-ignorant. Make full use of your rights, Ttbn.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 13 October 2019 2:28:56 PM
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Let me be clear, my default position is living together
And I know eighty percent of Migrants/Refugees are a basic good thing for my country
But the rather nasty twenty percent?
Remember in the country they or their parents came from we would be killed for trying to live as we do
Kiss and cuddle them but know they show total disrespect for us and our way of life
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 13 October 2019 3:48:25 PM
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Belly,
What is your recomendation?

Should we simply stop allowing those groups, that break our laws and show no respect for our society, to come here as migrants and refugees.

or

Should we insist that all obey our laws under serious penalty, including deportation, for say FGM, underage marriage and polygamy or not standing in court, that you mentioned before.

Let us know how you suggest we deal with those that thumb their nose at our society.
Posted by HenryL, Sunday, 13 October 2019 4:10:42 PM
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So, when it suits you, some people do have more right to be here than others! A hypocrite as well as a bully. Like all your sort, you finally got to name calling. You can call me a bigot because you are not articulate enough to do otherwise; but, so what? I'm not going to be shut down just because you think I'm a bigot.

"Maybe one day. you might contribute as much as some of those fellow-Australians do".

Oh yeah. Just what is it that these 'fellow-Australians" have done that I and other native-born Australians have not? Have you and I met? Do you know something about me, what I've done, what I am? Of course not! We don't all talk about ourselves.

Perhaps you have just been around too long and are starting out on your second childhood - or reverting to the Communist upbringing you have regaled us with more than once. Whatever the reasons for your attitude, I can no longer offer the respect I once had for you, and I will avoid any further interaction with you
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 13 October 2019 4:31:21 PM
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Thank you, ttbn.
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 13 October 2019 5:20:26 PM
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Slightly Off-Topic - Religion as opposed to Multiculturalism

-Well they're starting to attack religious beliefs -

Apparently a UK court has ruled that Christianity is incompatible with human dignity and not worthy of respect in a democratic society.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/british-court-in-transgender-case-bible-belief-is-incompatible-with-human-dignity

Does this mean we're going to slice and dice all religions on the basis of which parts of each belief system are benevolent and which parts are malevolent?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 13 October 2019 5:47:54 PM
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Belly,

Multiculturism started in Australia in 1788 and there were many who didn't speak English and didn't want to either.

Multiculturism is an Aussie tradition.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 13 October 2019 8:31:02 PM
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Gentlemen,

Come-on take it easy.

Don't let tempers fly here.

This is only an opinion forum we shouldn't let things
get the better of us.

If we allow ourselves to always get angry and cynical
and all we do is complain online - most people would
feel (as I've said previously) - I wouldn't want to
be friends with someone like that in real life.

You're all better than this. We may disagree on many
issues - but let's not get down to nastiness and
name calling. Otherwise this forum will become a place
that none of us will really want to be a part of.

Who wants to come on and be attacked for their views?
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 13 October 2019 9:36:48 PM
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People should be free to determine their own culture. That's what real multiculturalism is.
Integration is generally desirable, but it should be natural rather than forced.
The law should respect and protect people's rights, and should be enforced.
It really is that simple!
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 14 October 2019 12:48:13 AM
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Aiden do you think, for a single second, such freedoms would be granted to me and you in any Muslim country?
Here is the reason my thoughts have changed, and they have changed
Here and world wide voters have said enough, the right is wining elections because of this issue and mass refugees/migration
To compete, to ever again win elections, the not right must hear and see why the right is winning
Too many refugees are living separate in western countrys, far too many,in the very near future we will see, will see, more countrys close their doors to refugees/migrants
Posted by Belly, Monday, 14 October 2019 6:10:36 AM
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Belly, that depends on what you mean by "such freedoms" and what you regard as a Muslim country.
We don't have mass refugee migration, and we should see through, and help others to see through, the lies of the rightwing scumbags who vilify refugees.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 14 October 2019 8:48:37 AM
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the lies of the rightwing scumbags who vilify refugees.
Aidan,
That's your warped mind letting off poisioned steam. Only the pretend refugees are in that firing line, not the genuine but can you tell them apart ? No, I didn't think so.
Posted by individual, Monday, 14 October 2019 8:55:52 AM
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Belly,
I should add that it's not a question of whether those rights would be granted to me, but whether they'd be taken from me.

____________________________________________________________________________________

individual,
That's a lie and you know it. Right wingers put ALL refugees in the firing line, using the excuse that some might not be genuine.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 14 October 2019 9:14:36 AM
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Aidan,
You must read, listen to or watch different news than me as apart from some (like me) who think intakes are too high. I do not see any that put ALL refugees in the firing line, as you say.

We have certain groups that show no respect for us or our laws and I am sure they would be happier some other place and so would we. Basically they made the wrong choice in coming here, our society does not suit them.

Belly put a figure of 80% turn out good and 20% do not. His guess is as good as any ones.
Posted by HenryL, Monday, 14 October 2019 9:40:29 AM
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Despite anti-immigrant rhetoric abroad and
at home most Australians welcome multiculturalism.
We've even had an entire town and community
fighting for a Tamil family to be allowed to stay
in this country.

Immigration contributes significantly to Australia's
economy. Income tax alone from recent immigrants topped
more than $80 billion.

We have had a robust tradition as a country built upon
migration that continues to this day.

In 2016-2017 Australia demonstrated a net overseas migration
gain of 262,500 persons - a rise of 27.3% compared to
2015-2016.

In practice research suggests that multiculturalism is related
to "immigrant assimilation, integration, and adaptation, which
impacts immigrants success in their adopted countries."
Evidence indicates that as a nation we have been very
successful and can't be compared to countries overseas.

In 2016, the Scanlon Foundation's 9th "Mapping Social
Cohesion"Survey came out and among other findings it noted
that 91% of the respondents indicated a "sense of belonging
in Australia" to a great or moderate extent with 89%
of the diverse respondents agreeing that they "take pride
in the Australian way of life and culture."
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 14 October 2019 10:16:18 AM
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"Right wingers put ALL refugees in the firing line".

There's an admission that the refugee question is pure politics for fundamentalist Leftists like the poster. My own experience is that it is not a matter of Left or Right, but concern for Australia by fellow Australians from different sides of the fence. The well being of Australia surpasses individual political views - with most people, anyway.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 14 October 2019 10:20:09 AM
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Yes by all means lets go back to the "Golden Days"
of the 1950s/60s. When pubs closed early and drunks rolled
around outside and got into fights. When
Christmas decorations were made up of paper streamers
and balloons. When deli's did not exist. When on a Sunday
you could fire a gun down the main city streets and
not hit anyone. When girls left school at fifteen because
they were expected to marry and be supported by their
husbands. When we did not have the variety of products
in our shops that we do now. When dentists did not do
root-canal on your teeth - they pulled them out.
When the knowledge of doctors was very basic. When teachers
left a lot to be desired, and forget the arts, theatre,
ballet, and the list goes on.

It was a very different world - primitive and a cultural
backwater. Thanks to migrants who demanded goods and
services - things changed. And Thank God for that!

And that is multiculturalism. To which this country owes everything!
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 14 October 2019 10:38:07 AM
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Hey Foxy,
That's interesting.
"In 2016-2017 Australia demonstrated a net overseas migration
gain of 262,500 persons - a rise of 27.3% compared to
2015-2016."
Because if we look at births for the same period from ABS

"A total of 309,142 births were registered in Australia in 2017, resulting in a total fertility rate (TFR) of 1.74 babies per woman, the lowest since 2001."

That's a total of 571,642.
Assuming no change on this number equals 5.7 million population increase in 10 years or 3.1 million over 10 years without immigration.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 14 October 2019 10:56:44 AM
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Aiden give me a good reason why we, the safe haven country should change anything to accommodate refugees
Then tell me why they would not even consider doing that for us
Posted by Belly, Monday, 14 October 2019 11:02:58 AM
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Hi AC,

Thanks for the birth rate increases.

More than half of those would be from parents
of ethnic backgrounds - therefore adding
the immigrants and the babies - the total would
outnumber the locals. Migrants do tend to have more children. (smile).
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 14 October 2019 11:11:15 AM
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ttbn,
I have never been a fundamentalist, and I oppose fundamentalism in all its forms.
I'm not a political tribalist, and there are some issues on which those on the right are more likely to side with me than those on the left.
But the left at least try to base their policies around social justice (aka a fair go for all) while it's clear from this board that many on the right hate social justice, and look for reasons (usually based on fear) to avoid giving people a fair go.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 14 October 2019 11:14:56 AM
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Aidan,

You would say that but, were it possible for you to have a flash of self-revelation, I believe that you would be mortified by some of the things you say. Never mind. Nobody's perfect.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 14 October 2019 12:06:24 PM
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Ita Buttrose has joined the race obsession bandwagon, unoriginally suggesting that the media should "better reflect the culture of Australia". How much further does she think HER ABC needs to go, when most rational viewers think that that billion dollar monolith has gone overboard and is now MISrepresenting Australian culture by bunging in coloured people, Middle Easterners, Asians and sundries into roles that they never appear in in real-life. They also continue to import stuff from the like minded BBC: period pieces depicting black people in England and Europe when no such people were present in the particular era.

Last night, the ABC started another propaganda 'infotainment' clearly intent on promoting the aboriginal industry standing up to the white baddies. While the lead actor has always been excellent in other shows, and there are other excellent aboriginal actors in this one too, the blatant Left-view of aboriginality is too much for my stomach.

Anyway, it looks like we have another unoriginal dud thinker heading the ABC - again!
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 14 October 2019 12:39:01 PM
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Bring back - "The adventures of Barry McKenzie".
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 14 October 2019 12:49:50 PM
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Foxy said;
Bring back - "The adventures of Barry McKenzie".

Oh dear oh dear, you cannot do that, he is a terribly incorrect person.
I mean he is as bad as me and that would never do !
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 14 October 2019 1:28:31 PM
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Dear Bazza,

But don't you love people like that - and
isn't that what you guys are all about?
Aren't those the days that you're pining for?

And how dare these "foreigners" not appreciate
being criticised, picked on, and bullied by you
"true blue" Aussies!
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 14 October 2019 1:47:07 PM
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HenryL,
Refugees should be treated as individuals, not groups.
The law should be enforced, but the punishment should fit the crime.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

ttbn,
>I believe that you would be mortified by some of the things you say
I reckon you've based that opinion on what you've assumed rather than what I've actually said.

>period pieces depicting black people in England and Europe when no such people were present in the particular era.
What era was that? Keep in mind that black people were around in Shakespeare's time (hence his writing Othello).

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Foxy and Bazz,
I remind you hat we have just had Les Norton!

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Belly,
>Aiden give me a good reason why we, the safe haven country should change anything to accommodate refugees
They're in need of our help, so we should abolish the procedures that treat them in a hostile way in an attempt to deter them from coming here.
Beyond that there's very little that needs changing to accommodate refugees that wouldn't need changing anyway even if there were no refugees.
There may, though, be various changes we can make to help them integrate. Does that count as accommodating them?

>Then tell me why they would not even consider doing that for us
They're not a country so they don't have the means to do that for us, and nor do we need it done.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 14 October 2019 2:51:40 PM
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Hi Aidan,

I quite enjoyed Les Norton.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 14 October 2019 3:34:42 PM
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Hey Foxy,
Yes you're right, some of those quoted births would be attributed to said refugees.
Also from the link I used, it said that more women were having kids older.
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats%5Cabs@.nsf/0/8668A9A0D4B0156CCA25792F0016186A?Opendocument

Hey Belly; and everyone,
"While most find a way to integrate some never will"

This word: 'integrate'

Integrate into what exactly?
Australian culture? Or is it that:
- We all have to integrate 'Long Term Aussies' and 'Immigrants' into this new 'generic' politically correct global culture?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 14 October 2019 3:48:40 PM
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AC integrate
Dress as appropriate for climate not to express difference
Have as much respect for others religion, or lack of it, as they demand for theirs
Find reason to be like us rather than actively do the opposite
Find work if and when possible, not live near full life on our social welfare, some times by design
Posted by Belly, Monday, 14 October 2019 4:08:30 PM
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Good Evening Belly,

Integrate ? Yes, I agree. However sometimes that's
not that easy when not all locals are welcoming.
It does take as we know several generations to be
completely successful. After all that's how
Aussies became Aussies - it took time before
many stopped saying "We're British, you know."

Dress as appropriate? Not to express difference?
What's appropriate? For the beach, footy,
back-yard, or church, evening-wear?
Shorts and thongs? Torn jeans? Maybe new arrivals
should be re-dressed by appropriate authorities
before they're allowed into the country?

Respect others?
Respect when given is usually returned.

As for liking people? Most people start off trying to
fit in and like others - but it's hard to like some
who abuse you and accuse you of all sort of things.
And look upon you as a terrorist - when in fact you're
fleeing from terrorism - and it's your reason for coming here
in the first place.

Finding Work? Most migrants take whatever jobs they can.
Even the skilled ones will settle for what they can at first
until their qualifications get recognised.
And it's not always easy - with a name like "Mohammad."
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 14 October 2019 5:16:16 PM
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Thanks, Foxy, for a lot of common sense and human compassion.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 14 October 2019 5:46:20 PM
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Aidan.
You said "the punishment should fit the crime".

Yeah, I go along with that But it means far stronger sentences for most criminals. I don't think I will live long enough to see migrants and refugees not receiving reduced sentences on cultural grounds.

Even though they have for many years received information about Aus and our laws and standards before they are apply for a visa.

Doubt that! Take a look at penalties handed out for FGM and under age marriage. Or for the actions of muslim rioters, in central Sydney some time back. But of course they were terribly offended by the over seas cartoon or video.
Posted by HenryL, Monday, 14 October 2019 5:56:34 PM
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Well, I have to say Belly comes out on top in this one. As usual, I have gained amusement from certain people projecting their fairy tale imaginings about immigrants and refugees as 'facts'. Ah well, there's little that can be done with the naive and gullible who spend most of their time in front of a computer scouring ABC sites.

Slightly off topic, but still on those wonderful, non-white, hard done by paragons of virtue who Australia couldn't possibly survive without, some of us were reminded this morning by an Adelaide University professor of politics that President Trump was actually honouring another one of his election promises by withdrawing troops from sh.tholes. His supporters are thrilled to finally have a President who sticks to his promises. They are very happy that they made the right choice.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 14 October 2019 7:02:12 PM
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Dear Foxy,

If multiculturalism is the great social panacea then why are there laws that enforce compliance with attitudes and behaviours set by government to achieve this supposed miracle of national and communal togetherness?

Truth is that outside of the workplace people tend to congregate within their own ethnic group. People might accept the purported modes of togetherness within the workplace or at the shopping centre but outside of these places people are very uncomfortable associating with people of different ethnicity who have a different world view to members of their own ethnic group.

People behave differently as individuals than they do as members of a group in which case they adopt a group psychology and will do things that they would not do as an individual. And it is at the level of the group that the practice of multicultural must be determined. We can always cite so-and-so who gets on well with everyone but can we show evidence of ethnic groups that get on well with all of the other ethnic groups? I don't think so.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 14 October 2019 7:03:26 PM
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What's appropriate? For the beach, footy,
Foxy,
Saw a white Australian tourist sheilah prancing around our Supermarket last Thursday, dressed only in a bikini. Even though she had the body to complement the bikini, I still found it offensive & utterly uncultured. You should have seen the looks she got from the indigenous locals, not even the young blokes were impressed !
Posted by individual, Monday, 14 October 2019 8:35:43 PM
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Belly,
You are right integration is a far better way to aim for. Migrants should be trying to adopt our ways, instead we told them we would adapt to their cultures. It was a lie as almost all the foundations of our society are based on the British model, government, military, law, education and social. Despite 50 years of forced multiculturalism it remains the same. We are multiracial because of immigration but we are far from multicultural. The only cultural practices we accept are those that fit our own model. Although we turn a blind eye to some activities, such as polygamy and under age marriage. Is having a few ethnic eating places make us MC. I do not think so.

We should be proud of the social standards that we inherited from our forebears and promote them. Strongly enforce our laws. Those immigrants that have no respect and say they will change our society to the horrid places they came from can either comply or go elsewhere.

And we should be far more selective in who we allow in.
Posted by HenryL, Monday, 14 October 2019 8:56:30 PM
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'Integrate' into 'our' ways, part 2.

The point I was trying to make is that the second we say 'our' then we're racist white nationalists trying to impose a white Australia policy.
You all know you the left carries on.
We're acting tribal and trying to impose 'our' culture.

There is no such thing as 'our' culture under political correctness and multiculturalism.
'Our' - doesn't exist anymore.

Racism is an extention of tribalism which is an extention of culture.
The second we say 'our', then we're acting tribal defending 'our' culture.

Racism really has 2 sides to it.
One is a friendly sort of 'hazing';
'tribalism' and 'admittance to our culture';
Think of this as 'focused on defending our Australian culture'.

Part of that culture is taking the mickey out of others in a kind of friendly antagonising kind of a way.

The other side is actually being racist.
Simply hating others because they're different to us.
And hating them because they're here.
Think of this as 'focussed on hating others simply because they're not the same or because they're here'.

You might all be interested to know that despite my opposition to immigrants and multiculturalism, I don't ever treat foreigners disrespectfully, I treat them the same as anyone else.

I'm against the policy, not the individual.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 12:03:37 AM
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Armchair Critic,
I agree with what you say but will there be sufficient Australians left to grasp the enormity of the situation ?
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 1:49:22 AM
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Individual a truth, the children, in some cases the great grand children, of refugees/migrants will be [mostly] like us
It is those who will never be that concerns me
Know Europe is turning away from open door such as Germany wanted
And nothing, can ever, turn that around
Why? well enclavism, separatism, even making demands the we, the hosts, change not them, for a start
Some powerful group, lard heads at best, think forcing multiculturalism on us, not integration, was worth doing
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 6:43:13 AM
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Dear Mr Opinion,

From my own family's experience we have integrated
very well. As a matter of fact my brothers have
inter-married. One a girl from Sweden, the other
an English lass of Scottish heritage and they live
in semi-rural areas and fit into their local
communities.

My two sons have married - one of Russian and the
other one of German ancestry. And we get on with all
these relatives. My nephew has married a girl from
Vietnam and my nieces have married Anglo-Aussies.

So there you are. Would you call that tribal?
And our close family friends include Lebanese,
Sri-Lankans, Chinese, Iranians, and Europeans,
and Anglo-Aussies.

I guess we must be living in a different world?
We don't differentiate their backgrounds - we take
people as they are - and if we like them and they like
us - we accept each other.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 9:53:31 AM
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Foxy,

I don't understand this throwback to the fifties. I don't see anybody trying to force Australians to dress in a certain way (except those morons who are so opposed to the hijab) or speak another language besides English (except those morons on the proverbial buses), which the vast majority of immigrants and refugees seem to have learnt, except many women - but that's been a problem since the War:

I was talking on the bus with a lovely old Greek woman who came out here in the fifties, but, working a a shoe factory, never had the opportunity to properly learn English, but certainly through no fault of her own: that's how it was when you're working on a machine all day, making shoes for Australians.

And as an atheist myself, nobody has forced me to somehow believe in their religion. I have had some extended conversations with some pretty girls from the Jehovah's Witnesses and gained far more pleasure from the encounter than they did, I'm sure. [A good trick - keep it up.]

No doubt we will soon hear from the Waldorf morons about both the myth that all immigrants are on welfare AND the one that they are all taking our jobs.
Consistency doesn't matter when you are bigoted.

Go for it, boys.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 10:42:56 AM
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Joe,

Thank You.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 10:49:27 AM
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OK but tell me those unhappy with the current form of multiculturalism are not in big numbers grandchildren of ww2 migrants
Fact is tell me Poland Hungary and far too many countrys have not elected far right governments because of this problem
In fact look with eyes wide open, at the worst of the Muslim faith, even refusing to stand in our courts
Mostly bitter women, but again,
Tell me what our fate would be if we tried that in a Islamic country
Love kindness care all you like but do not kid your self some would cut your head off and not blink an eye
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 11:10:21 AM
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Belly,

Yes, indeed. There are many on the Islamist fringes who would do as you say, with interest.

But not all Muslims ? Not all Muslims are Islamists - in fact, I'd bet that many wear their religion lightly, as do most Christians, and see the mosque as a social place, a meeting place, with the sermons as an add-on. And Muslim women perhaps even more so, a chance to get out of the house. Yes, Muslim men may have very backward views on women's rights - something like Australian men did generally only a few decades ago. But current Australian life and experience will rub the edges of that.

Muslims make up a small fraction of our immigrant fellow-citizens. So the Islamist fringe is a small segment of a group which is a component of our overseas-born Australian brothers and sisters. We certainly should be vigilant about that tiny fringe, but we certainly shouldn't be painting anybody who looks different, or dresses funny, or eats weird food, or speaks in a funny language, as our enemies.

So you have little to fear from the vast majority of our overseas-born fellow-citizens. But of course, if you wish to retreat to your fifties man-cave, go for it. I don't think anything will change your mind - certainly not sense.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 12:19:28 PM
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Dear Belly,

Your fears I feel are unwarranted.

We have an institutional framework in this
country and the rule of law which applies
to us all. Whoever breaks the law has to
face the consequences.

On the news today for example, a Vietnamese
tourist brought in pork to Australia. Pork
is currently banned because of overseas contamination.
Their visa was cancelled and they were sent back.

As for how people are treated in Muslim countries?
Each country has their own laws - and it's always
best to check before going to see if you want to visit.

There are certain countries that I wouldn't dream of
visiting because I am not prepared to take the risk.
And if those people do choose to come to our country -
they also have to face the consequences of their
behavior. We expect people to abide by our laws. If they
want to practice their own customs - they can do so as
long as they don't break our laws.

Our governments are very mindful of our interests
and security - and due to what we have in place -
our country has encountered very few problems compared
to those in Europe and elsewhere. For us vigilance and
planning (programs and policies) has been key.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 12:28:08 PM
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Foxy: proudly brought to you by the ABC and the Federation of Ethnic Communities Councils, SMH, The Age and The Guardian.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 12:47:30 PM
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"We are the music-makers
And we are the dreamers of dreams
Wandering by lone-sea breakers
And sitting by desolate streams
World losers and world-forsakers
On whom the pale moon gleams
Yet we are the movers and shakers
Of the world forever, it seems."

(Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy).

We need more people like -

Sidney Nolan, Albert Namatjira, Roberts or Dobell,
Fred Williams or Arthur Boyd - we should have more
artists and writers -
people who will help us see ourselves and
our country in a new light.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 2:09:50 PM
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Here's something a young student from Richmond High
Form 3,
in Victoria wrote a few decades ago.

IF...

If my skin was coloured
And yours was starkly white
Would you start putting me down
Till I'd have to turn and fight?

If I prayed to a god
And it was different to yours
Would you reason it out
As a good cause for war?

If man got together
And made the world clean
Would you bring back pollution
And ruin another dream?

If the world looked like staying
In the state it is today
Would you try to help it out
Or just let it rot away?

If men are truly brothers
Why can't we live in peace
Should we obey the rules and fight
Or try to make it cease?

... I get up at six
... go to bed at nine
... I'd fight for my country
... don't open my mind
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 2:54:56 PM
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Foxy all good stuff, but it presumes those of us with concerns about multiculturalism are racists
We mostly are not
I will defend to my last breath most Muslims, most of any skin or faith
But I will never defend the dreadful ones
The insane murderers, like those in Bali bombing, Paris multiple murders
Those who tried to put their brother on a plane in Sydney, not knowing he was to die, with every one on that plane
I will not reward a deep hate for the west with love ever
Those who in the Sydney riot, held signs saying *our dead are in heaven yours are in hell.*
The non-right must achieve what it can, not try to achieve what it never will
And in growing numbers world wide the numbers are growing for some thing better than we have now
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 3:10:52 PM
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Now that we have been apprised of Foxy's family set up, it's not surprising that she gets frantic about multiculturalism. It's personal. It's about her. No problem. But we now know why we will never get an objective attitude, unbiased attitude on the subject from her.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 3:15:04 PM
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Dear Belly,

You're talking about people on the fringes of
society - of extremists. We all fear those kind
of people not matter what religion, race, or
culture they come from.

Muslims in our country
are such a small percentage - and the extremists
are an even smaller number. But as I said in a
previous post - we do have an institutionalised
framework and the rule of law to protect us here.
And it's worked rather well for us.

I have travelled and worked overseas
have met people from many cultures - and found that
human beings are the most extraordinary creatures.
And I'm still on my journey of discovery.
Belly - you're not a racist - you have a fair mind
and a big heart to match. And I know you mean well.
Unlike some - who like fleas persist in biting.
Annoying creatures, but not really of any relevance
to our lives and those who matter.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 3:56:22 PM
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A Vietnamese woman has been expelled from Australia for trying to bring in pork she had not declared, along with eggs, quail, pate, fruit, garlic and squid. The ABC described her action as 'smuggling'; but it probably should be described as a problem of culture. Multicultural residents, even citizens, have been caught trying to pull this stunt and they are only be fined (sometimes), not deported.

There is more to the dangers of lumping different cultures together than just somebody's hurt feelings.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 5:32:28 PM
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Dear Foxy,

You have missed the point of my argument. I was talking about the macro-social; not to worry, time will tell if my predictions are right.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 7:02:54 PM
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We should be examining societies that are peaceful and a happy community. Those societies that are fractious we should be seeing as not functional.

For instance Turkey is a fractious society, though it enforces one world view, it is determined to destroy its neighbours of the same religion. I have a young friend working just 50 meters from the Turkey border serving in a Kurdish Muslim refugee camp. The Turks are supporters of ISIS and their war agenda is take no prisoners, kill the men, kill the women, kill the children. They are both Muslim but one is determined to slaughter the other, they will never agree. Their principles of society are basically evil.

There is only one relatively successful society, and it is not based in race or political ideology, it began with an empire and is now a commonwealth of nations. it is currently being destroyed by racialism, and socialist ideology.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 8:40:39 PM
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Dear Josephus,

From what you say above it is easy to see you're definitely no sociologist.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 5:18:49 AM
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you're definitely no sociologist.
Josephus,
Congratulations !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 7:44:52 AM
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So there you are. Would you call that tribal?
Foxy,
No, that's not tribal. Tribal is when people from a different Tribe/culture move to another area & don't actually mix in the way your kids did. When the newcomers refuse to integrate it becomes tribal ie. not good for the host country !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 7:55:50 AM
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Individual,

I was born in this country. As were most of my family
members. And Australia is made up of people from
various ancestries and ethnic backgrounds. Australia
was built on immigration, as was England, Canada,
New Zealand, the US, and so on. Yet some of
you act as if I got off the boat yesterday. What's
your background and ancestry? We're all Australians.
Children of immigrants sooner or later blend in. They
always have here. Be they black, white, brown, Chinese,
whatever. They want to fit in. And usually do.

Today, in the modern world, we have high levels of
education, ever developing technology, tourism,
the cinema, and many other influences, that affect
all of us, and we are all constantly developing and
changing. And if there was no immigration, the same
influences would still exist - change is the only
constant in life. You can't compare previous centuries
with the 21st century no matter what your mentality.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 8:14:55 AM
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There's no better compliment than to be told that you are not a sociologist.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 8:52:50 AM
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Yes, individual. Foxy was born in Australia to parents we used to refer to as 'Balts', and she will never get over it. Most immigrants from non-English speaking countries are the same; many of them have a huge chip on their shoulder. Who knows why? They are the only people who can do anything about it.

On the other hand, English speakers and Western Europeans don't seem to have the same troubles or retain the same mania for foreign countries that most of them have never returned to or never been to in the first place.

It is common for actual immigrants as they age to lose their English and revert to their ethnicity. But, people who are born here? Again, who knows? More proof of the nonsense of cultural relativism?

Enforced multiculturalism hasn't made it any easier for them. They might have fallen for it in an attempt to make themselves feel more comfortable, not aware of the cynicism of out Leftist politicians, who will suck up to anyone at all for votes? Whatever. Its too late to repay the damage now.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 9:16:30 AM
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ttbn,
There is one thing you missed. The money that was handed out hand over fist.

Millions were granted for special ethnic days, some 30 to 40 years ago.
Not so much these days or at least we don't hear about and Howard dropped the use of the word multiculturalism (he should have killed it outright)

Yes millions were spent on special functions to make the ethnics feel at home, while we did not receive any because (according to them) we had no culture and even poms, Scottish and Irish did not qualify as not being ethnic enough. That is multiculturalism, division!

Remember the silly saying, "Unity in diversity" The stupidity of it.

Recall the violence in soccer each weekend. Club names were changed in effort to stop that.
Posted by HenryL, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 9:55:43 AM
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That's right, Henry. They are so arrogantly sure of our meekness that they don't even try to hide it. I call it treason.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 10:05:20 AM
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Tim Soutphommasane wrote an interesting article
in the Sydney Morning Herald before he became
the Race Discrimination Commissioner in the
Human Rights Commission a few years ago on -
"How Best To Tackle Racism - Australian Style."

He wrote: "Whenever I'm asked about my cultural identity
I answer that I am a first-generation Australian of
Chinese and Lao heritage. It's a mouthful, but it's the
most accurate description I can think of."

"I'm a new Australian in the sense that my family doesn't
have deep roots in this country. We can't lay claim to
having generations who have lived here and while I'm proud
to be an Australian I don't believe that this must mean
renouncing my ancestral background."

"For most of my generation there is nothing controversial
about this. We've reached a point where most agree there is
no single authentic way that you can be Australian. It's
one of the strengths of our society that people can be
comfortable in their own skin."

"For the most part people aren't made to feel ashamed of
their origins. That isn't to deny that there remains a lot to
do in confronting and combating racism. We should be under
no illusions. According to the Challenging Racism Project -
about 20% of Australians have experienced forms of race
hate talk, racist slurs, verbal abuse."

"About 11% of Australians report they have experienced
exclusion from their workplaces or social activities
based on their racial background. And Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander Australians continue to experience much
higher rates of racism than the rest of our population."

"Such findings lead some to believe that Australia is
essentially racist as a country. That's wrong.
Australians should be confident that we can tackle racism
from a position of strength. We've made much progress in this area."

cont'd...
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 10:56:35 AM
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cont'd ...

"Decades ago it may have been commonly assumed that
some races were superior to others - few would have batted
an eyelid at racial abuse in public places. Today things
are much different - old attitudes have largely given way
to more progressive sensibilities."

But the challenge of combating racism is no longer
confined to fighting old-fashioned bigotry. Because
racism isn't always violent. We all know the sort of racism
I'm talking about. There's a denial that the rules of
civility have been breached. - 'C'mon mate, harden up,
it's just a joke.' yet when it involved abuse or vilification
the victim's aren't laughing. - It's not about restricting
free speech."

"Ask anyone who's been called names. The most serious harm
doesn't reside with hurting someone's feelings - it's
ultimately about the denial of respect and equality. Racism's
harm lies in how it reduces its targets to 2nd class
citizens and how it empowers perpetrators to humiliate
others."

"A country that likes to celebrate its ethos of a fair go would
be hypocritical not to extend it to all its citizens and
residents. We've come too far to
start being sheepish about calling out racism when we see it. If this sounds like hard work
- then it's only fitting. After all whoever thought that
social progress was meant to be easy."
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 11:08:59 AM
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Foxy please take my I am sorry sorry that ttbn ever wrote that post targeting you and your parents
Best let this die, as truly racists without the aid of a brain are taking over see you in another thread
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 11:31:11 AM
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Dear Belly,

Thank You for your concern. But don't
worry about what others post. I'd have
to respect their views to be upset.
Water off a duck's back. Clickbait
garbage tailored to fit a narrative.

See you on another discussion.

Take care.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 11:53:59 AM
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yes see you and regards
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 1:26:05 PM
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Mr Opinionated, perhaps you could present an argument for a community that works. Since you are the arbiter of all knowledge.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 2:21:09 PM
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Belly,

You can't apologise for other people, and just what is that you object to in my post? You don't like the truth? Or is it just that you don't like me? Your are being quite ridiculous.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 3:51:56 PM
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Dear Belly,

We're all entitled to call out racism when
we see it. And we all should. But this toxic
creature is a neanderthal - and he'll be
pushing up daisies before too long.
So don't take him seriously - he's an
irrelevance.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 4:03:07 PM
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ttbn Sir it is my opinion you have mental health issues
And by your every post damages this site
Consider who replies to your posts, and how many
Would leave instantly if I was ever told not to return your bitter hate filled junk
leaving my thread rather than share it with you Foxy has described you to a t
Do not talk to me ever again
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 4:22:31 PM
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You have massive ego and confidence problems, Belly. Any further comments from me will only exacerbate them, so I will again withdraw from discussion with you.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 5:22:47 PM
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We're all entitled to call out racism when we see it.
Foxy,
Not only are we entitled to, it's our duty as Citizens ! Just as it is our duty to call out the deliberate misuse of the term Multiculturalism.
As I stated earlier Multi-culture is when people from various cultures reside in close proximity with the Citizens of their host country without demanding the hosts to change their ways.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 8:44:26 PM
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Individual,

It also means that while people are proud to be
Australians they should not be expected to
renounce their ancestral background.

People should not be made to feel ashamed of their
origins. We should not empower perpetrators to
humble others. We are a country which celebrates
its ethos of a fair-go and we need to keep working
at giving people just that.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 17 October 2019 9:31:51 AM
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Indy,
You are right, we are not multicultural and never have been. We are multiracial and we expect all new arrivals to abide by our laws and social standards.

I cannot think of any culture that we accept in its entirity. The Kiwis are probably the closest but they are quick to tell you how they differ.

We turn a blind eye to some alien practices but we do not go around making different laws for different groups.

I do not mind us being multiracial providing we set the rules. I object strongly to those that want to change our laws and introduce their cultural practices from other countries. I do not wish to live in any country but Aus. But I do wish we would enforce some of our laws far stronger.
Posted by HenryL, Thursday, 17 October 2019 9:47:30 AM
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Foxy & Individual,

I don't see any particular ethnic or religious group trying to make people from the 'host culture' behave more like them, somehow. Maybe if I still lived in Bankstown or Lakemba, I might see things differently.

I have a quiet pride in my ancestry, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I have Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English, perhaps Gypsy and Hungarian and West Indian, ancestry. I think of them as equals, not as adversaries jostling for my loyalty, they all get on okay. Of course, none of the others can understand the Welsh or Hungarian (who I suspect speak make-up languages anyway).

So what if some old Greeks or Croats or Chinese speak amongst themselves in languages that someone else doesn't understand ? Or if women wear head-scarves ? How is it their business ? Live and let live, for god's sake.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 October 2019 9:51:44 AM
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Foxy,
You said, "It also means that while people are proud to be
Australians they should not be expected to
renounce their ancestral background".

No, not renounce, but to stop practicing cultural ways that are alien to Australian laws and social standards. No cultural or religious law is superior to Australian law.
Posted by HenryL, Thursday, 17 October 2019 10:02:50 AM
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Henry,

And if those 'cultural ways' don't break any laws ?

Of course some cultural practices are objectionable. In particular, some may diminish women's rights. If so, hopefully the feminists will raise these issues in their solidarity with those women being mistreated. Yeah, right.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 October 2019 10:23:33 AM
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Dear Henry,

I've made it quite clear that within an institutional
framework that preserves tolerance and protects order we
can celebrate and enjoy diversity in food, in music, in
religion, in language and culture. But we could not do that
without the framework which guarantees the freedom to enjoy
diversity.

There are laws we are all expected to abide by. It is the
law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution.
If people can't accept that then they don't accept the
fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 17 October 2019 11:58:25 AM
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I have Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English, perhaps Gypsy and Hungarian and West Indian, ancestry.
Loudmouth,
As Winston Churchill would have said "that's very sporting of your mother" ;-)
Posted by individual, Thursday, 17 October 2019 4:47:11 PM
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I don't see any particular ethnic or religious group trying to make people from the 'host culture' behave more like them,
Loudmouth,
Bankstown/Lakemba are glaring examples but don't for a minute let yourself believe there's no undermining from others. Just look how some have hoodwinked Telstra or how some risk our Agriculture industry just so they can feel they're having something better from the country of birth. Financial institutions have also had their links exposed. The culprits aren't always called Smith, Jones or Taylor !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 17 October 2019 4:56:17 PM
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Hi Individual,

People from every group have equal rights to be stupid, or to commit crimes. Are you suggesting a sliding scale of penalties for offences, depending on ethnicity ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 17 October 2019 5:17:59 PM
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depending on ethnicity ?
Loudmouth,
?? What are you on today ??
Posted by individual, Thursday, 17 October 2019 7:43:57 PM
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a sliding scale of penalties for offences, depending on ethnicity ?
Loudmouth,
Come to think of it, that's not such a bad idea but with the focus on deeds not just ethnicity.
Someone here said recently just because a dog is born in a stable doesn't make him a horse.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 17 October 2019 8:40:07 PM
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Foxy,
You said, "I've made it quite clear that within an institutional
framework that preserves tolerance and protects order we
can celebrate and enjoy diversity in food, in music, in
religion, in language and culture. But we could not do that
without the framework which guarantees the freedom to enjoy
diversity".

That sounds like the propaganda written on a wine bottle label and makes the same sense.

You also said, "There are laws we are all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution.
If people can't accept that then they don't accept the
fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for".

Agreed and if they don't accept that they should not be here and we should stop them from coming here. We should also boot out those that demonstrate lack of respect. Need better law enforcement.
Posted by HenryL, Thursday, 17 October 2019 10:45:39 PM
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Joe,
You have not noticed any group wanting us to change our ways and our society?

Lord! where have you been for the last 40-50 years.

I seem to recall muslim blokes in dresses calling our girls 'whores' for wearing bikinis at beaches and even street wear. Did the word 'sharia' just pop into my head or have I heard that mentioned by various muslims.
I recall hundreds of muslims rioting in Sydney showing their hatred for us and calling for us to be beheaded. And I suppose all those rapes in Sydney were not racially motivated but done out of love. No need to even mention the hate speeches by Imams and Sheeiks over the years.

Muslims have been quite vocal about changing our society and have even told us how they intend to do it.
Posted by HenryL, Thursday, 17 October 2019 11:18:32 PM
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Henry,

Yep, there are extremists of all sorts in Australia, like in any other country. Of course they should be penalised if they break any laws. And the groups that you allude to, Islamists, should be closely monitored, given the incidents of brutal crimes over the past couple of decades with which they have been associated.

And they make up how much of the Australian population ? How much of the non-Anglo or 'new Australian' population ? How much of even the Muslim population ? Surely we need to focus discussion on precisely those groups within groups which are likely to commit crimes ? How does this even relate to non-Muslims across Australia ? Do we tar all of those fellow-Australians with the crimes of a few ?

So what do we do with the extreme-Right extremists, usually born-Australians ?

Get a grip.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 18 October 2019 7:44:11 AM
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Get a grip.
Loudmouth,
Not really, you should loosen yours !
Posted by individual, Friday, 18 October 2019 8:15:21 AM
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Joe, as far as I have seen there is only one group that has every
intention of replacing our laws with sharia and in doing so change our
constitution and remove parliament.
That is their aim, but I don't think they will achieve it because too
many muslims are, if not leaving Islam, becoming non religious.
They do not leave as it means losing their families and friends.
There will hopefully become a time when it will become normal.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 18 October 2019 9:42:38 AM
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If only there will be a time when people can have faith without the need for religion !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 19 October 2019 2:28:59 PM
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