"Australians on unemployment benefits will lose their payments if they refuse to take a drug test, under a new plan from the federal government."

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/newstart-benefits-to-lose-welfare-if-they-say-no-to-drug-testing-073212451.html

Besides thinking this has been put up as a distraction from the sliding state of the economy I fail to see the reasoning behind it. I would understand if a refusal meant you went straight on to a cashless card as is the proposal for those who do not pass the test. But why should a refusal end up with even more punitive outcomes?

No test, no money ! Introduce a National Service as well. Time to rid ourselves of useless morons ! Same should go for those with body Art that makes them unemployable.

Here's a chance for payback for all the insults this bloke has ladled out to all of you who have tried to reason with him.

SR,

I hardly use actual money these days. I was paying a bill yesterday and the Aus Post lady asked if I wanted cash out. I said no, on reflex. So I have no problem with any welfare recipient, even including Age Pensioners, being put on a cashless card system. And after all, it still allows a percentage, I think 30 % ? in cash, which I would never get around to spending.

There are many advantages to such a system: one is less likely to be robbed if one has only a card. Shops don't have to carry large amounts of cash, and shopkeepers don't have to spend valuable time going to the bank. In any case, you can pay bill on-line these days as well, so what's the fuss ?

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

With respect mate you haven't addressed my question. Why not just put refusals straight on to the cashless system rather than automatically stripping money from them for a month?

All this bs is by design in order to have more control over a populace.
It's almost as if 'incompetence' was a part of policy makers job description.
That's what got us here.

Money flushed away by idiotic progressive agendas, and that's CLOWARD AND PIVEN.
How many times must I say it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward-Piven_strategy

Sometimes to figure out whats wrong you need to go further up the chain.

As I understand the proposal, if you fail the drug test, you get put onto the card. Even if you keep failing. It’s only if you refuse the test that you get cut off benefits.
So, why would anyone refuse. If you test positive you don’t lose your benefits, only go into the card. If you fail a second time, you get referred to Drug and Alcohol service providers.
And like Joe, I would have no objection to having my pension put on the card. I also rarely use cash, just a few dollars for grandkids school outings. Even the swimming pool takes eftpos these days. As do many of the market stall holders here. And the 20% cash component is certainly enough to use at farmers markets and to buy second hand goods if needed.

What puzzles me is why the government regards the cashless card trials as a success?
From what I heard, the running cost was high, and the card was causing the recipients huge inconvenience as not all shops accepted it - it couldn't even be used at Bunnings.

Did those issues get fixed as the trials progressed?

Aidan, from what I have heard from people living in the trial towns, specifically Kununurra, the card is a success. Far less public violence, far less hospital visits due to alcohol, far fewer domestics, more kids in school and more food bought at shops.
And even the recent article from the Drug and Alcohol service in Ceduna who claim that the card isn’t working because they still have the same number of clients, admit in that article that the level of intoxication in their clients is greatly reduced.
And it’s false to say Bunnings won’t accept the card. They even accept the Basic Card, which is far more restrictive. And I know that because Bunnings have a sign up saying they accept the Basic Card.
The cards can be used anywhere that has eftpos, unless they sell alcohol, and can be used like any other bank card. You can even do on line shopping from many stores, except eBay because alcohol is sold there. The debit card allows you to do Bpay as well.
The biggest complaints come from people who say their landlord won’t accept cash, which tells me that landlord is trying to avoid the ATO knowing how much money they get

SR,

Incredibly, I find myself agreeing with your first post.

Stop it!!

I see nothing wrong with making a drug test part of the qualification for being given the dole, but I do think it strange that refusers are not put on the same conditions as the druggies. Druggies should have their welfare reduced as they obviously can live on less than the full dole money. They should also be put on a police watch system, as they are probably getting money from some illegal system to pay for their habit.

I would find a lack of cash an inconvenience, as I use it as my budgeting system. I put an amount, with a little more into a separate account each month to pay by f post all my regular costs, rates electricity, insurances registrations etc. I then give myself a certain amount of cash for daily expenses. This is fixed, & if I run out I stop spending. The rest stays in my main account for serious expenses like that new Ferrari I need to buy.

I find it relaxing to know my major expenses are covered, & I can fritter anything in my wallet.

Dear Steelie,

I watched Scott Morrison being interviewed by Leigh Sales
on the "7.30 Report" the other evening over this.
She asked if this was an attempt on the government's
part (money grab) of saving money at the expense
and health issues of people with addictions?
And the suggestion was that there must be a better way to
handle this matter instead of being so punitive.

It was also pointed out that this is not the first time
such a proposal has been brought forward by a Coalition
Government - with the idea first tabled in the 2017
budget.

This proposal has been soundly criticised by both doctors,
the medical profession, and social service groups who
have made it quite clear that this proposal would NOT
help people with addictions.

These warnings were again aired with Prof. Nadine Ezard,
clinical director of St. Vincent's Sydney's Alcohol and
Drug Unit, describing it as a "dead-end strategy".

"We're against it because our expertise and experience tells
us this is not the way to help people into treatment,"
Ezard said.

"In the face of such overwhelming and universal opposition
why is the government persisting? It's hard not to conclude
that this trial is not about helping people at all but
about making a political point".

cont'd ...

I forgot to add that if funding is taken away
from desperate people many will resort to crime.
And, that will end up costing the government
even more. Cost of police, courts, lawyers,
prison internment, medical treatment, et cetera.

Dear Shadow minister,

Yes we will have to keep it to a minimum.

Dear Big Nana,

To me it is an issue of human dignity. If I was a Newstart recipient who happened to use recreational dope but didn't want to be flagged in the system as a drug user then I shouldn't have to be forced to do a test.

The government is trying to say this is to help people but their actions show it is a punitive exercise and as such completely erodes the notion of assistance.

To me it is an issue of human dignity.
Steeleredux,
where is the human dignity in some tatooed from A -Z who's 90% of the time high on some mixture & expects me to contribute to help him ?
I have the feeling you don't understand the concept of dignity !

we see how marxism always results in the loss of dignity for humans, Just look at venezuela where our won abc and other marxist news outlets used as an example of how great marxism is. Of course now people can't even feed themselves and the lying liberal media has nothing to see.

Being unemployed is an entrepreneurial (word for the day), experience to many of the unemployed. That's a form of capitalism.

I'm tickled when the message comes from the same government, that had a tax dodging entrepreneurial Prime Minister, who made a life style from deception and slight of hand, dodging the tax man, (as one but small example of many others), that removing cash from the filthy poor for a presupposed crime of drug addiction is justified.

And maybe it is, but it misses the point. And Jacque Lambie is also right to withhold support of the bill, until a similar regime is established for that other group of wasted space, politician, to be similarly drug tested when attending parliamentary sittings.
Ouch, that one will hurt!

After all, aren't they sucking from the same taxpayer funded trough, as they abuse each other, (in a manner which resembles drunkeness), across the tax payer funded floor of parliament?

Dan

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

In principle, I agree with you, AND I also agree with Individual at the same time. No, I'm not trying to have two bites of the cherry, rather I recognise the need for people to eat, even though they've done the wrong thing.

However, INDIVIDUAL is also correct when he says,'...no test, no money and re-introduce a form of National Service to the Nation, not necessarily military, but for the overall benefit of our Country. With the same values & discipline as those inculcated in a military environment.

You're not stupid Steele; So I'm sure you see the value and benefits in that? After all, the Oz taxpayer isn't asking too much of these people? Nor can we be expected to fund their illicit drug habit either. Notwithstanding we're all prepared to help them beat their habit, does this sound, in any way, unfair to you Steele?

Dear o sung wu,

Just to be clear I didn't offer any judgement on the desirability or otherwise of a cashless card nor of drug testing. My only stated position is that compelling a person to take a drug test to avoid being placed on a cashless card is one thing but withdrawing support entirely just based on a refusal to submit to a test is to me completely unjustified.

I would be interested in your thoughts on that part of the issue.

As to national service I know of quite a number of environmental initiatives using unemployed people in our area were heavily over subscribed during Abbott's green corps push. But funding was pretty quickly dramatically slashed. I suspect getting this government to fund a proper universal national scheme of any description is highly unlikely.

Just on Abbott, the news of him being so intoxicated he couldn't be stirred in order to attend a vote in the house surely makes the case that our pollies need a testing regime right now.

Dear individual,

You write; “where is the human dignity in some tatooed from A -Z who's 90% of the time high on some mixture & expects me to contribute to help him ? I have the feeling you don't understand the concept of dignity ! “

Well mate where is the dignity in getting some poor older bloke around 60 who has been retrenched due to the company he worked for being sold off to overseas interest, struggling to secure a job given his age, now having to piss in a bottle and have a mouth swab taken every few months to prove he isn't a druggie?

All of us can fall on hard times.

As to you contributing to help him aren't you retired? How are you putting in to assist him?

And what do you think the tattooed bloke is going to do when his assistance is cut off? He will ultimately do whatever he needs to do to survive. How is society going to be better off?

SteeleRedux, how do you afford dope, even recreationally, if you are on basic welfare? We are bombarded with messages about how it’s impossible to even survive on such a small amount of money. Certainly there should be nothing spare for drugs and alcohol.
Foxy, you are just like all the people who predicted a massive crime wave in the NT when everyone on welfare except aged pensioners was put on the Basic Card 10 years ago. Even single mothers went on it. And guess what? It never happened!
Just like it hasn’t happened in Ceduna and Kununurra, where the Cashless Debit Card has been in place for several years now.
Also, if you think about this, it’s not just about stopping welfare recipients from using drugs, it’s also about cutting back on the cash economy, an attempt to get businesses to stop trading in cash they don’t declare, something that costs the government billions in unpaid taxes.

Another feature associated with this Topic and the consequential flow-on if payments are stopped. Besides, not bothering to eat, most minor property offences are carried out by druggies, who sell their ill-gotten gains, at pubs and on street corners, etc. At ridiculously low prices, but sufficient enough to obtain their next fix. If their drug of choice becomes scarce, so the costs of getting it also rise. Therefore, they need to resort to more serious crimes, 'offences against the person.' So one's imagination needs to look no further, to see the ultimate consequences, - aggravated robberies, then on to homicide.

A druggie going through the extreme 'horrors' is not a pretty sight, I can assure you. If they're female, they lose all manner of vanity and dignity, including vomiting, urinating, and defecating, including demonstrating self-gratification, sexual acts? I've never seen or heard arresting police rejoice in their suffering, whether female or male! Drugs are an absolute scourge in our community, and those who push them...well, either shoot 'em, lock 'em up, and discard the key forever!

probably no easy answers but when you see young kids of those on welfare and drugs roaming the streets stealing and begging you know the systems not working. Always seems to be money for drugs and alcholol but not food and essentials. They certainly don't have these issues in Singapore. Out of the many druggies I have met very few breakthrough even after many 'rehab' attempts. What happened to Bob Hawke's famous statement or was it just virtue signalling. There are jobs going begging in many places in Australia but unfortunately the sel entitled generation believe it is their right to get a cosy well paid job where they were brought up or at least holifay spots like Byron Bay or Coffs Harbour. Maybe we need to lift the newstart allowance by $100 a week but only those willing to be drug tested. Just a thought.

Afraid my view will confront some, true work for the dole, every one under 60
Of benefit to the community
And in its self will unmask fraudsters
Not from the anti drug test mob,every worker, in any work place, should be tested, for the safety of every one

Speaking of petty theft: I live in a bit of a rough area, on a corner; so I have a broad side-strip that I'm vegetating. This afternoon, I bought a bottle-brush and a bag of cow manure from Bunnings; I dropped off the plant and bag and went around to put the car in the shed. Five minutes later, when I went back to plant the tree, the bag of cow manure was gone. I only hope the bastard who pinched it can't read and thinks it's dog-food.

Joe

The social impacts of alcohol and other drugs
use, continue to be pervasive in this country
and include criminal activity and engagement
with the criminal justice system, victimisation,
and road trauma.

Illicit drug offences remain one of the most common
types of crimes for offenders in Australia.

Drug Policy Australia - is a public health NGO -
primarily concerned with promoting new approaches
to minimise the health risks and other harms caused
by the use of both licit and illicit drugs which
affect the well being of all Australians.

"We believe that legally enforced abstinence is
unrealistic and counter productive in modern Australia
which has one of the highest per capita consumption
rates of illicit drugs in the Western World".

Stopping welfare payments is not the answer.
Listening to doctors, the medical profession,
and social groups who work with drug addicts is .

The card may not help people with drug addictions, but it will stop using public money to purchase drugs.

1; All of us can fall on hard times.
2; As to you contributing to help him aren't you retired? How are you putting in to assist him?
SteeleRedux,
1; Yes and, that's why we need to have a guaranteed old age Pension particularly for for wage earners.
2; I have paid taxes of every kind to help support those before me, now I expect those after me to do similar !
You imply that as a pensioner I no longer contribute. I still pay tax whenever I buy something, I pay income tax on my few Dollars from my Super.
I expect the younger generation to go without what they can't afford just as I & many other Pensioners had to.
It is not too much to ask those who deliberately make themselves unemployable to either pull out their finger or exist on the most basic of support because that's what they chose without a care for others whom they expect to cover their expenses !
If they have disfigured themselves to such an extent that no-one wants to employ them then they should form their own community & support each other there. Same goes for drug abusers ! I have worked & paid for what I live off now !

Hi FOXY...

You say; '...Stopping welfare payments is not the answer. Listening to doctors, the medical profession and social groups who work with drug addicts is...'? And the police FOXY, do you think they might have something constructive to add to the conversation like one Police Commissioner stated inter alia '...we can't arrest our way out of this climate of massive drug addiction...'?

The police have stated ad nauseam; *treat the addicts, and **punish the hardcore pushers & suppliers, with long sentences. Does it happen? Most States have tried to initiate drug treatment programmes, but because of the systemic breakdown of the intent of our soft judiciary, the suppliers, pushers, and the 1%'ers generally are slapped with a wet lettuce leaf, and that's after the coppers have put-in hours of good work preparing an airtight criminal brief.

At the risk of annoying everyone; we need the following:-

(a) Robust, mandatory drug laws from our politicians;

(b) Dedicated police, 'drug enforcement squads,' involving the AFP with the initial importation, and the 'Staties' interdicting the distribution, the supply, and arrest of the pushers;

and finally;

(c) Long 'mandatory' gaol sentences, not allowing any 'wriggle room' for the crooks to gain some advantage, from many of the Judges (who hail from the Left), the opportunity to soften their penalities.

Won't stop it, but I'll sure slow it down some?

'Drug Policy Australia - is a public health NGO - primarily concerned with promoting new approaches to minimise the health risks and other harms caused by the use of both licit and illicit drugs which
affect the well being of all Australians.'

HI Foxy

you seem to be making the assumption that this Government funded organisation speaks for the majority of the health profession.

My son has worked as a doctor in emergency centres in a couple of hospitals. I suspect he and nurses dealing with meth addicts would have a different view. I have people who do drugs living on both sides of my place. Maybe 'victims' of crime should have some say.

The injecting rooms recommended by ngo's have turned out a complete failure. Programs like Shalom house in Perth have proved extremely successful which probably gets up the nose of the far less successful Government funded progams. Unfortunately like most Government policy it is blinded by self interested ngo groups often blinded by a false narrative.

Anyone who has ever worked with any type of addict will tell you that the worst thing you can do is enable that addict. When I did a Drug and Alcohol program whilst working in a residential rehab years ago, this was absolute dogma. A mantra we had to tell family and friends constantly.
Giving free money to addicts is the worst type of enabling. They don’t even have to work for their drug money, it just gets handed to them.
At least if they get put on the card they will have to make an effort to try and beat the system to get hold of some cash.

Not to minimise the problems associated with illegal drug addiction, they are real and extremely serious. What receives little attention, and from my experience is a bigger problem is alcoholism. One chap now in his fifties consumes on average 90 cans of beer, a bottle of cheap vodka along with cheap wine each week, I don't know how he does it, and is still alive, been that way for years. The blokes a qualified electrician, but I would not trust him to change a light bulb. Some time back he was on "unemployment", the fact is he was unemployable, so what did Social Security do, they moved him onto a disability pension, problem solved, or was the problem simply hidden away like so many others.

Steele you ask the question; But why should a refusal (of a drug test) end up with even more punitive outcomes?

Nothing to do with addressing the problem of drug addiction, but much to do with the philosophical mind set of those conservatives in government, these people must pay for their sins. They don't see drug addiction as a social problem, but rather as a criminal offence that must be punished.

Hey runner
"Shalom house in Perth have proved extremely successful which probably gets up the nose of the far less successful Government funded programs."

Looks like the founders still running his own drug operation;
- Only without the drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalom_House

Don't get me wrong if it works it works obviously there's something we can learn;
But people paying $300 per week of their unemployment benefits to work full-time for free?
How can they look for regular work if they're working for this guy?
Am I missing something here?

Armchair Critic

Not sure of the financial amount that drug addicts have to pay. I did not think those on new start received $300 per week. You could guarantee though that Government run schemes cost the tax payer far in excess of $300 per week per person with far less success. The reason this guy needs to charge is because he gets no support from the Government. It cost something like $300 per day to keep someone in prison so Shalom house seems cheap. Also if it costs the addict something they are far more likely to take things seriously. Some addicts go from rehab to rehab and often are given other drugs to replace meth which still keeps them as an addict.

I'm with you there Belly. Anyone receiving the dole should be working for that dole, at the minimum wage. That should be about 5 days a fortnight working to say thanks for what the community is doing for them.

This would also make working a couple of days a week for cash in hand a lot harder to organise. A local small turf farmer was complaining he could not get anyone to work full time for him. He needs a couple of laborers, but can only get dole bludgers who will only work a couple of days a week, cash in hand only. This gives them more net than after tax full time wages.

The farmer lives in fear of getting trouble for employing these people, but it's that or close the farm.

I think you've all made plenty of good arguments for the cashless card.
But I have to admit I'm still not in any way not sold on it.

I'm not sure I can support stigmatising the loser of capitalism, the person who did not get the job.

I can see merit in many of your arguments, but I'm all about using a 'carrot on a stick' approach as opposed to a 'whip'.

I think we'd achieve more teaching people how to have better lives and not stuff up in the first place than using a whip on them when they're down, I could be wrong, but something tells me time will prove me right eventually.

I'm not sure I can put my finger on what bothers me about it.
Maybe just the whole idea of using the whip seems flawed and unethical, like it's an idea that in a broad sense can't be foolproofed.
- Like somehow, the idea still has the seeds of is own destruction built in.

Hi all,

Look I could be sitting here explaining how the cost per person to run the Cashless Card trial is approximately $10,000 and is done by a private company with Liberal Party links.

I can probably say with confidence that this will be a bloody windfall for whoever gets the extended contract and will line pockets every which way but Sunday.

But these were not issues I have canvassed because I wanted to explore the very simple contention that if the reason for bringing in those who tested positive to go on to a Cash Card to limit their discretionary spending why aren't we putting people who refuse a drug test on the same Card with the same arrangement rather than stripping them of their benefits?

I am not here to challenge anyone's belief that this will reduce drug dependency although I don't share that belief at all.

All I want is for someone to stick their hand up and tell me why stripping benefits from someone for refusing a drug test makes any kind of sense in this situation?

why stripping benefits from someone for refusing a drug test makes any kind of sense in this situation?
SteeleRedux,
It'll never make sense to people with your mentality ! You need to learn how to care ! You need to learn that the moment you give an inch, the kind of people we're talking about will take a mile in the blink of an eye & then demand more. There's a right way & a wrong way to meaning well & doing good. How do you expect drug abusers will ever pull their finger out when people like you are perpetually making excuses for them ? Don't you realise that they'll never learn until they're forced to learn ? Not forced by the rest of us but left to their own initiative. Then & only then will they change & be of no burden to anyone because a burden they are ! Why is always us that has to give in because of their lack of self-discipline. I have been robbed several times & did not receive any sympathy let alone compensation. The culprits received Legal Aid to which I am forced to contribute to as a taxpayer. I got nothing ! I'm sorry if that goes against your thinking but I'm done with constantly being asked to worry about those who don't give a damn about others ! They decided to crap in their bed, let them experience the feeling !
The very least they can do is to accept the tests !

The leading question is; how does the Government identify a need to create a situation with this outcome?

I don't see that question answered anywhere.

To encourage a drug dependant to seek help maybe. Then that raises the question of why would they care?
The proposed method of penalising those refusing the test, is counter productive towards those ends, according to the interview with drug and alcohol medical doctors, at St Vincent's hospital in Sydney.

The next question is; who are the cohort of five thousand to be subjected to the regime. And what is the Government motivation for selecting them, above the myriad of other unemployed?

One could assume, this cohort of five thousand, are a troublesome group, inclined to be evasive with authorities on other levels not presented, along with the announcement.

I'd like to address these questions for the answer to what appears on the surface, the creation of an injustice. Evidence!

Dan

Don't worry, things will be a lot different when China takes over the country.

Australia now has what appears to be its own Manchurian Candidate in Gladys Liu and ScuMo is seemingly playing the race card to protect her against questions from Labor and others about her connexion with the Chinese Communist Party.

What the hell is going on here! Who the hell is the LNP government working for, the Australian people or Xi Jinping?

ok some will be upset, even in my party, be honest however
some, not near all,do not want to work
some use drugs, in every walk of life
while ever both sides,with differing views, think they can use this subject as a weapon in politics it will be used
so yes work at basic wage for the dole, any refusal, must be confronted, we owe no one who will not work anything
fair wages, for some the work will be education
some can not even read, some use drugs to hide other problems
i know people in their mid thirty's who have never worked
people who grow drugs , who work five day weeks for cash in the hand, and get the dole
we can do better than the card, give reason for those committing fraud to turn up, and maybe get caught
defending such is defending theft from the welfare basket

I live in an area where cash at the till in businesses is becoming unacceptable. It must be card in these businesses even for a $2 transactions, as too many leave without paying. Less likely the till to be raided or the casual staff make mistakes. Those on the welfare card are not discriminated against, as all cash cards are accepted.

drug and alcohol medical doctors,
diver dan,
Once these Doctors live of the earnings from their patients instead off our Taxes, I'll start taking them serious ! Until then, they should refrain from offering advise that only ever ends up lucrative for them !

Well individual, I'm one hundred and ten percent with Lambie on this one.
Let the government drug test whoever. After all, we have random testing on he side of the road which includes us all. But picking off a select group justifies explanation, not excuse.
Lambie offers the green light if politicians are willing to be work drug tested too.
I'd love to see that innovation. Especially alcohol testing of politicians.
We deserve a country to be run on sober decision making.

But the question here is the punitive action against those of the cohort unemployed, who refuse the test.
This part of it makes a mockery of the deal. I agree.
An explanation is in order.

Dan

Dear individual,

You write;

“Once these Doctors live of the earnings from their patients instead off our Taxes”

Are you really one of those who want to trash medicare? To me that is unAustralian and should be condemned if that is the case.

You write;

“You need to learn that the moment you give an inch, the kind of people we're talking about will take a mile in the blink of an eye”

How on earth are they getting an 'inch'? Those refusing a drug test should be treated as though they have failed one and put on a cashless card. End of story. Instead they and presumably their families will be stripped of welfare payments. Why are you okay with this?

These 'people' are human beings. The fact that when the economy is good we have far fewer people on things like Newstart shows that most are willing to work if they can find it. These vary from retrenched Mums and Dads to kids who have left school and seeking their first job but find themselves hard up against a tight market. Now each and every one of them will be drug tested periodically, at whatever expense involved, just to attend to a small minority. How is this a good idea?

diver dan,
When people fall onto hard times we are morally obliged to help them but I draw the line when people consciously decide not to seek employment & do drugs instead & complement their stupidity by paying hundreds if not thousands of Dollars for tatoos !
I think Politicians need to be made far more accountable when they cause unemployment as do Unions. Drug test them every week. That'd create a new industry in itself.
I have contributed enough Tax, far more than I'll be costing in Pension ! Let those who lived by negative gearing fork out for a change !

Are you really one of those who want to trash medicare?
SteeleRedux,
Where on Earth did you get that brain wave from ? Did you have beer with Belly ?
I want to trash the waste of Tax dollars on drug abusers & senior bureaucrats & the Negative gearing brigade.

as for "These 'people' are human beings." I never said they weren't, just that they're not good ones !
I have never advocated against decent people falling on hard times, only bludgers. What will you ask next, give terrorists a Taxpayer funded Superannuation ?

indy 35 years ago, small country town, me on holidays mid year
Worked 12 hour days, often called back middle of night [fatal road smashes]
Boss warned me take your leave or it will be lost, so took 4 weeks
Back to that country town, shopping, mum still alivev then but could not do the shopping
Two nasty old women [hard right area] spoke openly of me being a dole bludger
Any relation?
Bloke over the road, told me he thought he should hang himself, no job no hope,and it would be best for the kids

Belly,
What's your post got to do with someone refusing a drug test ?

I keep repeating, I'm with Lambie on this one.

To continue on the road to drug testing the unemployed, then the first step should be for politicians to lead by example. That's very fair.

It's an agreeable precept to employment, that an employee should be sober and free from the influence of drugs on the job.

I'm not up to speed on this, but if Lambie can arrange a private members bill in the lower house, which proposes that politicians should be free from the effects of alcohol and drugs during their attendance in the house, then the next step, (assuming it is supported), would be the reasonable assumption that a breathalyser should be operating at the entry doors.

Then and not before, I will condone drug testing, and the penalising of the unemployed.

Dan

Here's one. Like many local councils, one in Sydney runs "random" drug and alcohol testing of employees. This practice was not disagreed with by the union or the workers. However with the tests only being conducted in the early hours of the morning at the depots, on outdoor staff only. Well the workers now demand that such tests be truly random for all council employees, including office staff, tests at say 2 o'clock on a Friday afternoon, after the long lunch. Now that put the cat among the pigeons, the gung-ho council have gone away to "consider" that proposal.

My son tells me the same regime applies at his job on Sydney buses, test the drivers, but not the office staff. As it does also apply at my son-in-laws work site as a crane operator on the rail tunnel project in Sydney (two blokes sacked the other day for failing the test). One rule for one, another rule for the rule makers.

Hi there DIVER DAN...

If you were to support Ms. LAMBIE's proposition, that our elected leaders be free from the effects of grog & drugs when in the House, we'd not have a parliament at all! Neither Federal, State, or Local Government for that matter?

After all, endless quantities of grog, a car, and complimentary Business Class transport, are merely just another covert benefit for them? That's even before their Parliamentary benefits are taken into account. I suppose it could also be asserted, some of us are just envious?

One of the CEO's I worked under, once complained to me that he'd heard about people complaining about his salary.
I told him that, personally, I couldn't care less if he had diamond studded toilet seats. However, if the cost of them was taken out of the funding to run the show efficiently but it wasn't run efficiently, then yes, I too would have a problem.
If he can manage so well that his high salary is justified, then I can't see a problem ! Where I do see a lot of huge problems is where CEO's mismanage so badly yet they still receive their high salaries & we have to "tighten" our belts. Heads of Departments & other high ranking bureaucrats are very guilty of that !

OSW

Actually, I would support what is fair and reasonable.
It is not reasonable for politicians living in glass houses, to be throwing stones over the fence, at their aboriginal neighbors.
That puts it pretty much in a nutshell.

Dan

That puts it pretty much in a nutshell.
diver dan,
They acknowledge that alright but only when it comes to Indonesia !

Remember the old poem about the swaggy who arrived at the South Australian boarder with a bag of grapes, only to be told he couldn't carry them across the boarder. He sat down. ate the grapes, "then carried them across the boarder in his belly".

I have wondered why we arrest people carrying drugs, but do not penalise those with the result of drug taking in their body. Any ideas?

I see no problem making drug tests mandatory for everyone, including pensioners. Stick any who test positive on a no cash card, including all government employees. Refusal of a test should carry a mandatory jail sentence, with the term increasing for repeat offenders.

Watching Current Affair this evening was an eye-opener. A 30 year old druggie didn't even hide the fact that Welfare enabled him to continue his habit & a single mother with one child is receiving 1200 Dollars a week ? Can someone please verify that I heard alright ?

Last night Channel Nine [ a Current Affair] put a Pensioner on display
Wounder if they paid him, very much a moron and failure he is but it widened the cash card debate or did it
Some will fire up against all because of this one, maybe he should face criminal charges?
Filthy house filthy bloke no average pensioner here but still defaming a whole group? was that the aim?

defaming a whole group? was that the aim?
Belly,
Only that particular section of Welfare recipients which IS a large section.. They actually did say that many aren't like he is.

Indy I started full time work at age 13 worked till 66
Worked every extra shift [often] or over time never cheated on my taxes
Would have worked till death if I could have
Turned 74 today, bit hungry, not starving, last ten grand isolated in super for my burial
But car stays out the front, not moving, petrol went up yesterday [oil war] and its ten liters to go any place here
So I am a pensioner,I have seemingly committed a crime in your eyes, lived too long, should have died the day I stopped work
That young man? you know the term would not so and so on him, my dad, yep mum too, in our hard times young days told us this a million times
Get a job work well you can not build a life without work

'I see no problem making drug tests mandatory for everyone, including pensioners. '

come on Hasbeen. With all due respect for pensioners many are taking up to 5 or 6 different prescribed medications a day. My parents in their late eighties have about 6 tablets each for so many different things (high blood pressure, diabeties, pain killers, and whatver else the doctors prescribe). Imagine what the tests would show up.

I take 15 tablets a day, have been random drug tested often all clear every time
But Hasbeen!
What type of world do you want?
I agreed while at work, with drug testing, in some cases it is for every one
Including office people [coal mining]
As it should be, some unions [left wing] say no
But driving a huge coal mining thing is every bit as dangerous as any car, if you can not drive drunk or drugged you should not be able to work that way
Fix the issue, true must attend must work must be paid minimum wage work for the dole for all unemployed then'
Drug tests for workplace safety reasons

Indy I started full time work at age 13 worked till 66... seemingly committed a crime in your eyes,
Belly,
I am at a loss why you say the things like that last sentence ? I had exactly the same working life as you.
What is it with you that you always bring up truth yet you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge truth when it comes to asking people to muster some discipline & decency.
Drug testing is a must these days. It's got nothing to do with medication. They can always show the tester the prescription ! Unless of course you believe that some moron on dope gets his hits prescribed by a Doctor ?
No-one's saying that alcohol abuse is any better but even alcoholics still function whereas a doped up moron can't think !
If you could only get yourself to see the massive benefit a National Service would be to our society. Imagine the dope morons loitering on Centrelink steps reduced to none at the stroke of a pen.
Several months out in the countryside pushing wheel barrows & swinging picks & shovels will soon make reasonable humans out of snowflakes !

Individual I take some of that back, in truth we know many shared our early start to working life
Too that current legislation says today's youth will work till 70
I truly despise that young bloke, truly
In my mind he looked ok for some kind of work, cleaning his flat for a start
You know as I do, people in our youth worked with very real disability's no pension for them'
I will try a thread telling of my view we can improve on this

Belly,
We really need to concentrate on changing this entitlement mentality. The Authorities need to wake up too. The people who are entitled to Welfare & old age Pension & the genuinely unemployed are denied their entitlements yet the sit around lazies & drug abusers get it literally handed to them, they almost don't even have to ask.
yes, we can keep raving on about the lazies but the REAL problem with Welfare fraud etc are those bureaucrats who control the wWelfare system. They're the real culprits !
Look at Centrelink, you can't even contact them for crying out loud ! I'm trying to get my Medicare card renewed, you think I can call them or email them ? No ! EVERYTHING is email based these days yet if you need to contact them they give you a postal address. I followed the instructions on their website & it won't accept the details from my present card ??
See what I mean ?

So who pays for the universal drugs testing? The employer, the tax payer or the employee?

Steeleredux,
We all do but you can always donate more if you think it'll help ! It's due to leftist social engineering that we are at this deplorable stage. it's thirty years since Barlow & Chambers & ten years since the Bali 9 executions & young Australians are into drugs more than ever.
What do you suggest in lieu of drug testing ?

"I take 15 tablets a day, have been random drug tested often all clear every time". Wow Belly, you beat me, I only take 8, although there is a puffer thing to try to keep me getting oxygen. That 3Rd heart attack didn't do the lungs much good.

I only suggested pensioner testing to eliminate any stigma associated with testing others. If we are all tested it is a non event.

SR, if we can bulk bill for millions of doctor visits, & keep paying single mothers for the 3Rd 4TH & 5Th new kid, I think we can afford drug testing. Have to wonder at your resistance. Are you a drug Barron & a communist by any chance.

didn't do the lungs much good.
Hasbeen,
Try a turbo charger or an intercooler :-). On a more serious note, I know how that feels re the lungs. I'm getting way too short of breath these days. Too much Fibreglassing & sanding in the early days !

I went to the RSL today & watched a small army of Centrelink Soldiers attacking the pokies.
Was told that they're the actual life-blood of the Club.

Indy, welfare recipients should not be "going to the RSL" spending the tax dollars afforded them by the generosity of us tax payers, certainly not on the demon drink. You did say the last pension rise hardly afforded you an extra schooner, alcohol is a drug! Since you are a busy body wanting to know who is playing the pokies. How do you know who works for 'Centrelink', have they got it tattooed across their forehead, or something.

:"Was told that they're the actual life-blood of the Club." Now who told you THAT? Nothing better to do than sit in gods waiting room, drinking piss, narking the staff about who is playing the pokies. You "watched" I suggest you get a life, and move on from your failure as a public servant.

BTW its not uncommon for aged pensioners to be putting welfare through the pokies themselves. Maybe a cashless debit card for the old folks would be a good idea. Lets have it that you can't spend you welfare payment on alcohol, fags and other drugs, no gambling as well. Lets PO the $5.50 PBS for pensioners because 95% (your favourite number) are hypochondriacs who run to the doctor with all sorts of so called aliments, when its nothing more than the effects of old age, and past "good" living, demanding drugs because they are cheap as chips on the PBS, for them that is. Having a competition to see who can pop the most pills a day Hassy's on 15, or some such rubbish! How about you, can you top that?

Paul1405,
Are you vying for the presidency of the Git movement ?

Individual, a single mother with one child would receive $1200 / fortnight, plus rental assistance, plus rebates on gas, electricity, water, car registration and license, health care card, bulk billed doctors visits. Then there is the $800 she would receive every July as a a Family Tax Benefit top up. Plus two days a week subsidised child care so she can do what she wants.
Not a bad gig at all. Not surprising 16 year old girls choose this career over working for junior wages

Big Nana,
Yeah, I have witnessed that scenario many times. What I want to know is, what about the fathers ? Are they not being chased up for child payments ?

What are the Public Servants in the Welfare & Child Support Departments doing all day ?
If we owe the ATO $25.- they know how to track us down ! Perhaps Welfare & Child Support Officers should be trained by the ATO ? Centrelink Officers need more training in moral judgement. I mean there's something seriously wrong if a tattooed from top to bottom so they have an excuse for being unemployed can get Welfare yet a genuine family in need can't ?
These CL officers really need to be sufficiently competent to make on-the-spot moral decisions instead of relying on the insidious one shoe fits all policies !

"Indy, welfare recipients should not be 'going to the RSL' spending the tax dollars afforded them by the generosity of us tax payers, certainly not on the demon drink."

The government shouldn't be spending money on foreigners either while Aussies wait on hospital waiting lists.

"Centrelink Officers need more training in moral judgement."

Indy, sounds like a good job for Archy Pell, do you think you might write him a personal reference.

Steele,

I agree with you entirely; the Government move is punitive for no good purpose, it could be seen as vindictive by many.

the Government move is punitive for no good purpose
is Mise,
What would you suggest ? I decided to ask you instead of Paul1405 because he doesn't appear to understand Moral otherwise he'd sound a tad more enlightened.
Just imagine the outcry if these Pokie addicts were denied their unemployment payments, they'd have to make do with just the sand mining Royalties !