Today (23/8/19) is the 80th anniversary of the signing of what became known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. This was a treaty between the USSR (Molotov as Foreign Minister) and Nazi Germany (Ribbentrop) which pledged that the two parties would not attack each offer - a non-aggression pact. Secret provisions in the pact were that the two would attack and share out Poland.
A week later Germany invaded Poland, two days later (3/9/39) Britain and France declared war on Germany and WW2 started. Two weeks after that the Soviets invaded east Poland and took possession of the land they'd been promised by Hitler.

Although the war started on 3/9, in reality the pact made war inevitable. Poland was isolated and indefensible (although that wasn't realised at the time by the western powers)and as such Hitler was always going to attack. And Britain/France had no real choice other than to stand-by their previous pacts to try to defend Poland.

The pact continued through to 22/6/41 when Operation Barbarossa started.

Volumes have been written concerning the morality and/or efficacy of pact, and it will continue to be argued over for a long time yet. Soviet apologists defend it as being a necessary evil. Others see it as an outrageous betrayal of civilised norms. Yet others see it as an inevitable coming together of two essentially compatible regimes.

One of the consequences of the pact was that it threw communists sympathisers in the west into a quandary. For the past years, at the direction of Moscow, they'd been denouncing the Nazis as a threat to the world. Now Hitler and Stalin were BFFs and they had to pivot. But they did it with few dissensions. Virtually overnight they went from denouncing Germany and urging efforts to confront Hitler, to denouncing Britain/France and praising Hitler.

This continued right up to June 1941 when Barbarossa started, whereupon they pivoted again and demanded that everything must be devoted to stopping Hitler

I forgot to attach this earlier by way of background.

http://www.lawliberty.org/liberty-forum/whiplash-communists-worldwide-scrambled-to-adjust-to-the-pact/

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_Address_to_the_Reichstag_(30_January_1939)
mhaze,
There was actually a banner with Der Marxismus muss sterben (Marxism must die)

m haze like the thread, and understood that
After leaving school, very young, learned to read and that saved me
Out the back of Grafton road building age put up, my first real reading frenzy was on the subject of ww2
Still fixated on it and it has helped me[reading] learn a great deal
May I ask? do you think America knew about Pearl Harbor
A suspicion exists they may have
Will not answer for a day or two, off to pick up 4x4 at Evans Head then hom

Belly,

Right off topic but give my regards to Evans Head, I did some boat building there in the late 1970s and had some good times with the local Aboriginal people at the Bora Ground back in the mangroves.

Dear mhaze,

Are you an historian?

mhaze may well know some of them
It was quick, drove up in 6 hours yesterday towing box trailer
Early morning to day drove to Nimbin, pickup and paid for my 4x4, trady sold it to me at a good price
Found time, not much, to meet a few of that mob, hearing I was coming they met me at my brothers place
Two fishing mates will be down mid spring, both have never eaten eels, will smoke a couple for them
Back on thread next post

In the book ‘1984’ there is an iconic passage that encapsulates what happened in regards to the Soviet propaganda after the new treaty….
At the start of the book, Oceania is at war with Eurasia. They have always been at war with Eurasia. That's the political consensus, and all historic documents agree. However, Winston Smith (the protagonist) remembers a time five years ago when Oceania was instead at war with Eastasia.
Then Ocean's allegiance switched back again. On the sixth day of Hate Week, as crowds gathered to denounce Eurasia, the Party switched enemies to Eastasia. In a particularly rousing speech against their enemy, the speaker was handed a slip of paper, and in mid-sentence, without pause, without change in content or tone, he changed the name of the enemy he was speaking against to Eastasia. Eurasia was now their dearest friends. Those holding banners denouncing their enemy were suddenly embarrassed to discover they had unaccountably written the wrong name, and quickly trampled and destroyed them.

This change meant work for Winston in the Ministry of Truth:

“Oceania was at war with Eastasia: Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia. A large part of the political literature of five years was now completely obsolete. Reports and records of all kinds, newspapers, books, pamphlets, films, sound-tracks, photographs--all had to be rectified at lightning speed. Although no directive was ever issued, it was known that the chiefs of the Department intended that within one week no reference to the war with Eurasia, or the alliance with Eastasia, should remain in existence anywhere.”

And so it was with regards to the Soviet propaganda and the ‘beliefs’ of all good communists around the western world who changed in an insistence from demanding that Hitler be confronted to demanding that Hitler be supported and his enemies confronted

"do you think America knew about Pearl Harbor"

It depends. They knew or guessed that Japan would launch a surprise attack somewhere. But they suspected it'd be in S-E Asia, probably the Philippines. They didn't expect (let alone know) it to occur in Hawaii.

mhaze such is my distrust of ww2 America I think it may have known
And let it happen so they could get the nation behind them, as it became increasingly understood they must take part
Yes [and the middle aged and young should under stand it] for a while communists, here too, did not support the war
Until Russia was attacked
America made big money out of that war
Few however can ignore the huge part Russia played in winning the war in Europe

There's really no evidence, merely innuendo, that the US was even remotely aware of the Japanese attack. Its always struck me a more than a little racist in that it assumes that those yellow men were incapable of outsmarting our guys.

We're really smart and were able to organise the Dolittle raids without them knowing but the reverse is unthinkable.

If Roosevelt wanted or needed to allow Pearl Harbor to occur to get into the war he did it in a strange way. He wanted to fight Hitler but Pearl Harbor didn't offer that path. Its was only Hitler declaring war on the USA that solved his problems.

Yes the USA come out the other side of the war having become the richest place on earth. But if that was the goal, they would have been so much better-off staying neutral and selling to all comers.

"or a while communists, here too, did not support the war
Until Russia was attacked"

It was more than not support. For example the communist waterside workers actively sabotaged the war effort and put lives of servicemen at risk right up to June 1941.

Dear mhaze,

I'm really at a loss as to what you are trying to achieve with this topic. At first I thought you were trying to present yourself as an historian but from the way you write about the past it is very obvious that you are definitely no historian. I find you creation science types to be all a bit odd! I think we need to put you with Cardinal Pell in the old confessional box (or the sin bin as the boys in the Vatican probably call it - nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean). Just make sure you dress for the occasion.

mhaze not going looking for it but the fact is America knew Japan was about to go to wr with it, hence my question
As a centrist my view about the communists acts both before and after Russia entered the war are these, they world wide betrayed us
And while staunch unionist our postal workers during the Vietnam war acted dreadfully
Howard [people should search and read this]
Formed anew union in his office, before he became PM
Communism was and always will be just another form of Dictatorship

Belly wrote: "the fact is America knew Japan was about to go to wr with it,"

Well I most certainly agree with that. Pretty much everyone thought it likely that Japan would go to war. Even someone as clueless as Mr O would have worked it out at the time.

Earlier I wrote: "They knew or guessed that Japan would launch a surprise attack somewhere."

But where? Hitler and Stalin thought it would be Siberia. The US thought that possible as well. Others in the US thought they might go for the rest of China and Vietnam and be happy with that. The British thought they'd have a crack at India and get access to M-E oil. Almost no one thought it'd be Hawaii which is why it was so ill-prepared. Few thought it would be the Philippines, which is why it was so ill-prepared.

When you look back with 20/20 hindsight you have to remember that people of the time didn't have access to our history books. They were trying to work out the future and as we all know that's very hard.

Dear mhaze,

It's you not me who is running around pretending to be an historian.

Dear mhaze,

You shouldn't go around pretending to be an historian. I think you're due for a naughty boy spanking from Cardinal Pell. Just make sure you're dressed for the occasion>

Agree m haze but find commend things in today's world
EG Japan was forced out of world trade, you and I know that, not finding reason to say other than their actions bought about total well deserved defeat
Mr O have you become fixated with m haze?
See some times he is quite right EG you assault on his figures in another thread was quoted from our official figures
And by his age, life long learning he knows things younger players do not
The complete history of ww2 should be taught in schools highlight in JAPANESE SCHOOLS
As Japan rearms and changes its very constitution we should remember they fought one war with us and one against

Dear Belly,

No, I'm not fixated on mhaze. There are others. I like to spread my fixations around.

Mr O fair enough may well share some of your biases
And bank on it m haze and I often differ
The thread is worth while and have seen only the truth from him here
Shame is a 50 year old may never know the truth about those days
Born at the end of it my education came from reading, second lot of books I bought [first was a ten shilling buy at a farm auction on Breeding Jersey cattle] was the history of ww2
Worked with two [different jobs different times] ex POW's of the Japanese, one was in Japan at wars end, entrenched my wish to know more
This communists here and in England and America [in far different times] thought they had invented some thing good, got that wrong
And until Russia was invaded acted like traitors

"As Japan rearms and changes its very constitution we should remember they fought one war with us and one against"

I'm not the slightest worried on that front for two main reasons:

1. That old Japan has completely gone. The war utterly destroyed that society and all it stood for and all it held dear. The society was ripped apart and then put back together in a new less belligerent form. Japan, while still among the most racist of nations, no longer sees a role for itself as the head of an Asian empire.

2. They are now confronted by a somewhat more powerful China which still harbours grievances against Imperial Japan. Japan is therefore increasingly fearful of its neighbour and has sought and continues to seek protection under the American umbrella. It'll be many a generation before that changes.

Did you notice the recent Japanese efforts to help Trump in his trade war. They've apparently agreed to take all of the USA surplus corn crop. China had been threatening to stop buying it as a way to pressure US farmers to attack Trump or maybe even move the election against him. Japan has now taken that weapon away and shown its loyalty to the US.

Agree With much of that m haze but, yes it seems Japan would fight with us and the USA
Still after they said never again it is striking that they are rearming

mhaze,
We don't need to worry about China or Japan or anyone else declaring War on Australia.
It's much easier for them to buy this Nation, there are more than enough greedy sellers here to ensure continued sales until the scales tip the other way !

Indy China has already tried to buy Queensland
Unfortunately the Japanese did not want to sell
BUT China need not buy, with an army near twenty to one of any combined enemy's they can choke us with trade bans

China need not buy, with an army near twenty to one
Belly,
It's cheaper for China to exploit greedy Australians than to mobilise such a huge Army.