So us believers in climate change have been conned
Multiculturalism is a left wing plot
Coal is the only fuel, no need to find others
Who is behind this? who blinded me to truth? and why
Why are the wars in the middle east and Africa not being stopped
Who is leading us in the wrong directions?

Hi Belly,

On Middle East and African wars, don't be misled by the maps - they cover about five Australias, and maybe seventy countries, hundreds of ethnic groups ('tribes' of millions) and many religious enmities. So nobody is going to go 'in' and 'stop the wars'.

Coal and gas might be with us for some decades yet, like it or not. If they were subsidised to the same extent as 'renewables', maybe forever. And if 'renewables' were NOT subsidised, the answer might still be the same: forever.

I'm all for an inclusive - not exclusive, ghettoised - multiculturalism, on the basis of common adherence to the rule of law, equality of the sexes, one person one vote, respect for our imperfect democracy, and equality of opportunity (and all the supports which may have to go with that).

Don't worry, Belly, we'll muddle through :)

Cheers,

Joe

just seeing the lying liberal media and the violence/hatred of terrorist like Antifa shows you that we are in trouble Belly. The sexualisation of kids and forcing everyone to accept perversion as natural is also a pretty good indicator we are going the way of ancient Rome. Strange how the left need to invent issues to be morally superior about while slaughtering millions of unborn. Yep we are in trouble largely due to man's corrupt and greedy heart and secularism has shown its as bad as any fake religion.

Dear Belly,

There was a report published on May 6th 2019 by
the Intergovernmental Science Policy Platform on
Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services (a big
international quango) which was based on 15,000
research papers that makes grim reading. It makes
claims that a million species of animals and
plants are threatened with extinction.

That three quarters of the world's land and two
thirds of its marine environment have been
significantly altered by human action. That urban
areas have doubled in size in just the past three
decades and that more than 85% of wetlands have
been lost and more than 90% of ocean fish stocks
are being harvested at or above sustainable levels.

And it gets worse. Then we have the human refugee
problem, the wars, and our own internal problems.

Yes the world is truly in trouble. And we do need to
start taking notice of the vast army of experts
who are willing and able to guide us through
the coming difficult years.

A better world is possible. It will take effort.
It will be difficult. But it will be worth it.

The American anthropologist - Margaret Mead once said -

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful
committed citizens can change the world, indeed, it's
the only thing that ever has."

Is the world truly in trouble?
A more apt question would be-who got our World into so much trouble ?
My answer to that is; Sociologists/social engineers, inadequately intelligent Academics, incompetent bureaucrats in fact, all those people who hang off the aprons of those who create wealth. After they got their slice of the cake they then complain about the hands that feed them.
That's why our World is in trouble !

Interesting all posts so far but tell me who and why, is lying to us about climate change
Too While the current wars are about to see yet another [Trump's reelection plan] why can we not stop them
Is the UN truly a monster or just useless
Some target it, and a Socialism I can see no evidence of, for conspiring against us
Now for runner gee read that post
What bleeding rubbish
Tell Me how many of us, from all sides of the fence would stand for such a world
It exists only in runners mind
Add mass migration and refugees to the problem
Driven by those wars, by hunger, by the first glimpse of overpopulation
And by economic forces like the west's welfare
Yet some want to stop aid?
Who is behind this? or are we all too interested in trivia to even think about it

The human race is looking down the barrel at its own extinction event. We are destroying our survival system through over-population, runaway global consumerism, environmental degradation and species extinction.

I don't quite see runners comments as not being relevant.
In fact what he contends is only the tip of the iceberg, I imagine 350 words are not enough to fully justify the answer to this topic.
There are too many factors, and probably the leading one, before we get into it subjectively, is the objective one, which is overpopulation.
Take Australia for example, while the bleeding hearts and the jelly brains bleat on about taking in more refugee/migrants, the TRUTH is we cannot/must not.
We cannot 'cater' to a random and unchecked increase in population with the current supply of resources without compromise.
The naive and moronic view is that because we are such a large landmass we are being selfish by rejecting those wanting to settle here.
We are nothing compared to what is going on in the rest of the world.
We have ignorant races who for whatever reasons refuse to stop procreating, indiscriminately.
Now this of itself is not THE only reason why the World is in trouble, but just think about it, if people were a little more aware of what was going on around them, we would not be heading for self destruction.
Just imagine, if the people would settle for one child, we would witness a major drop in world population within three generations.
If we only rely on two off-spring per couple, we would remain as we are, any drop in numbers would be very very slow with only the sick and those dying of illness and accidents would affect the numbers.
But this is only one factor, and there are many many more, this one seems obvious and feasible to enact immediately with immediate results.

IF we started to look for things that bind us together I would be convinced it is not in trouble
The chances of that right now appear to be zero
Is it possible that after we prove we can not live as one some power unknown to us will force us to
I refute runners of this world, we would not have arrived at this place if so many of us are so evil
But we are apathetic, we give more concern to social media than world affairs
Right now, this day, the world rather than stopping the coming conflict with Iran, is taking sides

Dear Belly,

In 2006, the Australian Government's position was
to cast doubt on global warming and refuse to
enter into UN agreements such as the Kyoto Protocol.
Little has changed when ignorance and vested
interests are confronted by scientific facts.

Our science is first class. It's not corrupt.
And new ideas, instead of being welcome for the
opportunities they open up are seen as threats to
those who are comfortable in their ideologies.

There are many reasons for people's apparent
short-sightedness. Psychological ones - why
some favour the present rather than future. Economic reasons,
many have the belief that productivity increases over
time (although this may not hold true indefinitely).
The psychological reasons have to do with risk aversion.
Any one of us might not be around to benefit from a good
time in the future - so let's have it now regardless of the
long-term consequences.

Climate change is real. there are global climate changes -
and the vital signs of the planet are shown in the link below
given by NASA:

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Dear Foxy,

As an environmental sociologist I know you are correct but you will never be able to convince the denialists and those who think it is someone else's problem that we should take immediate action to turn back the clock on anthropogenic activities that are the root cause of global warming. Maybe the problem needs to get to the same level that the CFC destruction of the ozone layer reached back in the late 1980s to convince all of the meatheads that we must act universally if we are to avert our own extinction event.

Foxy Mr Opinion in starting this thread I asked questions
One is still unanswered, who conned me, and you two, and why?
And again, if every western country right now, closed its doors to every refugee every migrant, how would we return those countries to mono cultures
Is such a thing possible, or even a good idea
Why not take the easier path? work together to try living together
Why must the wars driving refugee flows continue?
Surely the reason the UN exists was to stop wars
Even if it makes war to stop them

Belly, like Foxy et al, your suggestion is a great one, but unfortunately, even if we could convince all nations to live in harmony, which is a big ask but not completely impossible, there is one obstacle that is impossible and therefore will render the whole idea moot.
And that major impediment, is, ISLAM! TA DAH!
Unless there is a way of rewiring Muslims to be more humane and inclusive and/or tolerant of other people of different religions.
The other way might be to convince the rest of the world that religion is a construct and it is not of spiritual substance, but originally by humans of questionable origins and agenda, and promoted by those with a lack of self esteem/worth

Gentlemen,

I've said this before in past discussions,
and I'll repeat it here again very few people
would deny that the planet has a finite amount
of resources or that it can tolerate only a
limited amount of pollution. If world population
continues to grow rapidly, if industrialisation
spreads around the world, and if pollution and
resource depletion continues at an increasing
rate - and all these things are happening - where
is human society headed?

The most optimistic answer to these questions
would be that, one way or another, sweeping
social changes await us all.

We also now have the risk of nuclear warfare on
the horizon. Whether we choose to destroy our
civilisation or save it is a collective decision
- and hopefully one that may well be made in
our lifetimes.

If more and more nuclear weapons are built
and more sophisticated means of delivering them
are devised and if more and more nations get control
of these vile devices then we surely risk our own
destruction.

If ways are found to reverse this process then we
can divert unprecedented energy and resources to
the real problems that face us, including poverty,
disease, overpopulation, injustice, oppression,
and the devastation of our natural environment.

We can only hope that our ultimate choice will be
to enhance the life on this bright and lovely
planet on which billions of us share our adventure.

Some people seem to think Australia is in trouble.
However why pick on Chinese. All my life Chinese have always been polite and helpful.

http://twitter.com/GusWhyte/status/1152855666844770304?s=09

JF Aus,

The Chinese have been more than just polite
and helpful. They have raised the bar in
many schools and professions. We can learn
so much from them - especially how they
treat their family members and the elderly.

At the back of my mind, bet it is the same for others, the thought this chaotic world must change, lives
That one day, like it or not, some huge power,will take over and run the whole planet
Mentioning any race [Chinese here]just enforces the truth, we divide ourselves
Yes bring about changes in the way some seem to divide, question why integration and multicultures can not exist together
But unite is far easier than dividing ourselves

Dear Foxy,

Your description of the Chinese is very simplistic.

To explain the way traditional Chinese behave would require an extensive explanation in the anthropology, sociology and history of Chinese culture and society that would take one back two and half millenia to the teaching of Confucius.

The Chinese of the current diaspora, especially to Australia in their millions, are looking for a first world lifestyle and unfortunately for Australia that means an increasingly adverse footprint on our delicate environment. The LNP governments have been bringing in cashed up Chinese to keep the Australian economy afloat, which will mean an increasingly large intake of them to maintain an economic growth that our environment cannot in fact sustain.

Mr Opinion,

I don't like sweeping generalisations about any
particular group. It does not allow for individual
differences. I don't like stereotyping because it
encourages counter-stereotyping which in term
leads to a breakdown of communication.

My ancestry is European and believe me - I have
experienced prejudice. Therefore, I try to be careful in
not prejudging anyone. Having experienced it myself firsthand.

Dear Foxy,

You have not understood what I am saying. Your description is simplistic because it is void of a sociological analysis that is necessary to properly understand social behaviour.

PS I do not see anything wrong in drawing generalisations about social groups but I usually admit that such generalisations only describe about 85% of the people in a group. For example, saying that lawyers are liars does not mean that I accept that all lawyers are liars; it means that 85% of lawyers are liars; this is a generally accepted stereotype, commonly evinced by such presentations as the 1997 Jim Carrey movie Liar Liar.

Mr Opinion,

Therefore the following:

"Aussie, Aussie, born and bred,
Long in the leg
And thick in the head,"

Applies only to 85% of Aussies.

I get it.

Taken from a sociological study - a few decades ago.

Dear Foxy,

That's nonsensical and shows a lack of critical thinking skills. If that's your idea of logic then maybe you should join the climate change denialists who relish in that sort of discourse.

Mr Opinion,

And you accuse me of being nonsensical?

LOL!

OUCH. Rush me to the burns unit!

Mr Opinion,

Would a big soothing hug help?

Might pass on the offer. Just a good old fashioned discussion is what I'm looking for.

"very few people
would deny that the planet has a finite amount
of resources ….. If world population
continues to grow rapidly, if industrialisation
spreads around the world, and if pollution and
resource depletion continues at an increasing
rate - and all these things are happening - where
is human society headed?"

Short answer...human society is headed for a bright future.

The fact is there is no resource depletion. As I've said here many times, humankind have never, ever, run out of any resource. Never have, never will. Equally pollution is not get worse but in fact getting better. All first-world economies have seen dramatic reductions in pollution over the last 50 years. Many developing economies still have high levels of pollution but as they become richer and better able to afford mitigation measures, those levels of pollution fall. And they have the benefit of knowing how to mitigate pollution by copying from the first-world nations.

There are many ways to understand these issues. But it needs to be noted that all predictions of decline have always been proven wrong, from Malthus to Ehrlich. We didn't run out of oil when we were supposed to. Peak oil didn't happen. Predictions of exhaustion of copper, aluminium, coal, food etc etc etc have all been shown to be wrong.

One the best examinations of this that I've seen over the past decade is the calculations toward the Simon Abundance Index (SAI) which found that as the population increases the availability of resources increases and real price decreases. ( http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/simon-abundance-index-new-way-measure-availability-resources#full ). The notion and calculations are complex particularly for those without a statistical bent, so a summary of the conclusions is here... http://humanprogress.org/article.php?p=1603&fbclid=IwAR3qbgn4mOJcqzFSU19A74HgQ18wd54Uje-ofVNLdX8nsfYE7Jx0Xn6TsJ0

/cont

/cont

I know that the notion of increasing population resulting in increasing resources is counter-intuitive and that for many that equates to the notion being wrong. Its difficult to think outside the box when you don't even realise you're inside a box. As Simon said...“As population increases, the time-price of most commodities will get cheaper for most people, most of the time. Unfortunately, most people will assume the opposite.”

Further on that idea..."The world is a closed system in the way that a piano is a closed system. The instrument has only 88 notes, but those notes can be played in a nearly infinite variety of ways. The same applies to our planet. The Earth’s atoms may be fixed, but the possible combinations of those atoms are infinite. " . While theoretically, each resource is finite, the greatest resource on the planet, the human brain, is infinite. And there are a lot more of that resource today than in the past.

________________________________________________________________

It seems that humankind has an instinctive apocalyptic bent. Generations as far back as we know, have believed in the end-of-times that is near. No matter the increase in scientific knowledge, people revert to that instinct. In 1000 AD Y1K, like Y2K, elicited mass hysteria, which like Y2K had no basis in fact. Over the millennia, this fear of impending doom was satisfied by religion. Most religions have an end-times scenario. But as religion declines its been replaced by other end-times myths, from nuclear Armageddon to AGW to mass starvation to asteroid impact to Trump.
And while the world and our place in it have improved dramatically in the past 300 years (eg average life epectancy has gone from 29 to 72 years), people want to, need to, beleive the opposite. Its both sad and entirely to be expected. So fear not Belly, the world isn't truly in trouble.

The very opposite in fact.

Foxy,
Came across this. It is original from Jan 1 1988

Arranged by Tommy Tycho and sung by Julie Anthony. The orchestra is Sydney Sympathy, I think the Government one is with a military band.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4JTxzWFFg

First mhaze opinions, everyone has them, and every one has a right to them
Telling what one is the right one is endlessly imposable
We, mankind, have seen the extinction of many life forms in our time, contributed to or actually been the reason
Population, maybe, in my view for sure, we are right now in places on this world overpopulated
In fact have been for at least half a century, the famines in Southern Africa is proof
Water restrictions,not just there but even here, are not just drought, but recurring droughts, maybe the new reality droughts
Are a reason for emerging, but to grow much much worse, refugee flows
We do not do refugees well in this country, but it will get worse, world wide

Mr Opinion,

Good luck with finding a good old-fashioned
discussion.

Thanks HenryL,

But this is a bit outdated. The Chinese national anthem is more Australian nowadays. And at the end of it we all stand with our heads turned to the right and upwards to the future and proclaim 'Long live Emperor Xi!'

Foxy, so can we take it that the example you submitted in response to Mr Opinion, suggesting 85% of Aussies are "thick". (or not all there)?
It's heartening to see you finally resign yourself to this reality.
It would go a long way understanding some of the lefties on OLO.
As for stereotyping; it is a convenient means to describe a group or race.
I'm sure that if WE know it does not mean 100% of a group that everyone else realises it too, so no need to bring attention to the obvious, as if no-one gets it.
Foxy, it's called expediency.
We can get a message across with fewer words, and yes we do expect the reader to already know it does not always mean 'everyone' in a group.

Apart from 6 sensible posters, this thread has sunk to a silly argument between to idiots who think their poop doesn't stink.

I'm surprised that anyone had to ask if the "world is truly" in trouble". Of course it is; it's as plain as the nose on your face. Why? Because of people like the bloke who asked the question.

PS. Him and the two idiots vying for who gets last say.

Here's today's example of the world being up to putty. Authorities in Berkley City in the US are changing the names of 'man holes' to maintenance holes; 'man power' with human effort and 'fraternal' with social. Not to mention the already ubiquitous 'they' for he or she, mixing the singular with the plural.

I wonder how many women have gone down a manhole to wade in shite.

HenryL,

Thanks for the link.
Beautiful!

ALTRAV,

I was merely light-heartedly (tongue-in-cheek)
pointing out to Mr Opinion that prejudice is
an irrational, inflexible attitude towards an
entire category of people (the word literally
means "prejudged.")

The key feature of prejudice is that it is always
rooted in generalisations and so ignores the
differences among individuals.

Therefore someone who's prejudiced against Chinese,
Indigenous Australians, Muslims, Aussies, the Brits,
or any other group will tend to have a negative
attitude toward any individual person of that group
in the belief that all of them share the same
supposed traits.

ttbn,

Do you know that diarrhea is hereditary?

It runs in your genes!

Hey ttbn

"Authorities in Berkley City in the US are changing the names of 'man holes' to maintenance holes; 'man power' with human effort and 'fraternal' with social."

Why am I not surprised?

You've got to look to the bigger picture;
Someone's decreed that:

Immigrants: 'Changing the People' is an attempt to / results in 'Changing the Government'
Semantics: 'Changing words and their usage' is an attempt / results in 'Change the way we think'.

Think I'm wrong? Watch this:
The author discusses it explicitly.

What You're Not Supposed to Know About America's Founding
http://youtu.be/364cxeR5EAg

I think I'm going to go with individuals comment.

"My answer to that is; Sociologists/social engineers, inadequately intelligent Academics, incompetent bureaucrats in fact, all those people who hang off the aprons of those who create wealth. After they got their slice of the cake they then complain about the hands that feed them."

- With the only difference between individual's opinion and mine is I don't think it's incompetence;
I think it's an agenda and it's all being done by design.

Anyone done the full 2030 sales brochure yet?
If you want to know where we are headed beyond 2030;
- Then start looking at the 2030 agenda plans -

Ask yourself 'What kind of world are they building?'
- That'd be the perfect place to start.

My general thoughts towards the future is that they seem to be moving towards an open border world with free movement of people, but there will be constant monitoring of all citizens at all times.

Dear Armchair Critic,

My picture of the future is a pretty bleak place. A hot world beset by droughts, floods, famines and plagues. Have you seen the movie 'The Road'? You should catch it if you haven't.

try to be nice are you aware?
Do you understand
See many do not even read your posts, smarter things are said by monkeys
However another of the threads questions [answers appreciated] is can we reverse multiculturalism
And should we try
Right now the right is riding a wave of discontent over refugees and migration, even England leaving the EU is based on that
IF we want to how can we stop,even reverse, multiculturalism?
Or is the shortest [achievable path] making it work
I think often both sides would be better served by making it work
What do others think
not you ttbn do not want you getting a head acre

Belly,

Much of what I wrote in my post this morning wasn't opinion but facts based on economic research and historic understanding. Historically we've never run out of any resource. Economically all resources we currently use are becoming more plentiful not less.

Additionally, we could look at food. Despite what the doomsayers have been saying for the last 200 years we aren't running out of food. In fact, the world currently grows more food per capita now than it did at any time in the past. That is, on average each of the 7 billion people alive today have more available calories than the 1 billion people alive in 1900.

These are facts, Belly, not opinion. I know that you want to ignore those facts and people like Foxy want to believe that the opposite is believed by most others, but those who look at the data know differently.

If you, and others, are even slightly interested in the facts, then read the links I provided. Its research based on real world data, not mere dystopian fantasies.

"recurring droughts, maybe the new reality droughts".

Well droughts have been around forever so this is hardly a change. On the other hand, the IPCC in it last report found that there was "low confidence" that there were any "increases in intensity and/or duration of drought" as well as "low confidence" that any changes in drought was caused by man.

Facts again Belly so I'm sure you'll feel free to ignore them. Opinions are much better than facts to some.

Overpopulation is a big problem, and every time the various charities and United Nations programs operating in many of these overpopulated areas save a life, they are also compounding the problems caused by unrestrained population growth. The demographic time bomb continues to develop.

Whatever happened to, "populate or perish"?

mhaze,

I stand by my earlier post.
The scientific evidence is there for everyone
to find.

In pre-industrialised
societies, human technology made comparatively
little demand on the resources of the environment.
Populations were relatively small, and for the most part
people's material needs were fairly limited and easily
satisfied.

Industrialisation, however, has brought about rapid
population increases - and also an apparently endless
expansion to people's material desires.

The most technologically advanced societies are now digging
ever deeper into the planetary environment for the raw
materials and energy they need to fuel their economic
development.

Advanced inustrial technology has had dramatic ecological effects.
It has lead to extensive pollution of air, water, and land,
with disruptive effects on the health of organisms and the
climate of the planet.

It has also lead to the rapid depletion of
resources such as minerals and fresh water.
Additionally, the combined effects of
pollution and habitat destruction are
causing a mass extinction of other species.

Technology is problematic because it is a factor in social
change - particularly in the modern world, where complex
technological fixes are applied to existing social and
technological problems, only to produce still more problems.

If this subject interests you - I recommend that you get hold
of a copy of Prof. Tor Hundloe's book - "From Buddha to
Bono: Seeking Sustainability," it makes interesting reading.

That overpopulation is a problem is an understatement.

In 1900 world population was 1.6 billion; by 1985 it was 5 billion (= world's sustainable population); in 2019 it is 7.7 billion and rising rapidly.

In 10,000 years it went from a little over 5 million to 1.6 billion; in 120 years it went from 1.6 billion to 7.7 billion.

So, who's the blame and how do we stop it?

mhaze

Australia has run out of the southern bluefin tuna and pilchard and herring commercial resource. Bluefin tuna were so many it is said they used to cover the towns of Bermagui and Eden during the season. But not anymore. The bluefin fishery and others in those towns are commercially dead.

At Lakes Entrance Victoria the pilchard and anchovie populations were scientifically estimated ycapable of supplying 200,000 tonnes per annum but never exceeded 10,000 tonnes p.a when Australia's most diversified fish processing plant there closed due to lack of the resource. The latter is what the plant manager told me first hand on site while the huge plant was being demolished.

Overfishing was not the cause. I have evidence of substance showing the cause was/is sewage and land use nutrient pollution proliferating epiphyte growth and other algae causing reduction of sunlight required for natural photosynthesis in seagrass nurseries on which pilchard and anchovy depend.

Relevant data is surely fake to make people think no resource in Australia has been lost.

There is much more to all of this. N.B here:
http://twitter.com/FelixFarley77/status/1153104160587280384?s=19

"Whatever happened to, "populate or perish"?

It's now populate AND perish.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/china-s-xi-jinping-is-not-a-god-and-the-backlash-against-him-is-building-20190722-p529h3.html
The link is a reminder we are to be confronted by China
MHaze ok still hold my view,you will be aware anti climate changers, consider science/fact untrue
I reserve the right to say much the same about your claim
China by the way is to set soldiers in Cambodia, the country we paid millions of dollars to to house what two refugees?
I would love to think we can blunder on without ever changing anything but we just can not
Drought, at least increasing in numbers,surely is a symptom of over population and climate change
Or are droughts increasing for some other reason? can that reason be something other than those two mentioned things

Whatever happened to, "populate or perish"?
JF Aus,
It has reached its use-by date because it encouraged the wrong crowds !

Mr Opinion and Belly,
Both you blokes have been around here long enough to have read that Iran and Thailand each found a way to restrict women from having too many kids. It is through government sponsored family planning.

Similar schemes need to be embraced by other countries and especially by those that often have famines.

The fact that the UN does not take heed of what Iran and Thailand learned shows it has failed as an organization. Population can be controlled without harsh measures and needs to be embraced.

To find out simply google family planning in those countries, it can be done. Population control is not too hard.

At the 2016 Census, the count was 1.2 million Chinese residents, plus around 200,000 students. About 6 % of the total Australian population. Get a grip.

Chinese have been here, working their backsides off and contributing to the development of Australia since before the gold-rushes. A hundred years ago, in town after town, it was the Chinese who grew the vegetables that fed our ancestors. In Oodnadatta, Tenterfield, you name it.

I went to high school in Darwin in the late fifties, and the Chinese community was the backbone of social life; it provided by far the best baseball team, and some amazing sportsmen and women as well. I had some wonderful friends there whose generosity I will never forget. One bloke taught me how to jive.

Population: the world's growth rate seems to be slowing down. As women are able to get a better education, they tend to marry later (since, after all, they may well have employable skills and thereby have options other than early marriage) and have fewer kids. So let's promote women's education everywhere.

In most of the world other than Africa, the world's population will stabilise and/or decline later this century. 'Growth' will more likely be a result of people living longer. Japan is already facing huge employment problems because of this - many old people, too few younger people to do the work. So they're re-thinking their immigration policies.

Probably by 2100,the main population problem of much of the world will be similar to Japan's now: not enough younger people to do the necessary work. So countries will turn to immigration on the one hand and automation etc. on the other.

And by the way, putting these two issues together: China's population will stabilise around 2050-2060, and decline sharply by 2100, perhaps halve, thanks to the legacy of the idiotic one-child policy of Mao's.

Joe

The greatest problem we face has nothing to do with any external threat. It is our run away bureaucracies at all level, national state, & the worst local government.

My neighbour, a single pensioner was complaining about his recently received council rates bill. Just to live on the home he has bought & paid for with after tax income, he now has to pay 2 full months of his pension to keep hundreds of bureaucrats chattering away in town.

Yes that is right, one sixth of his pension goes on keeping a bunch of basically useless twits in air conditioned comfort, doing nothing useful for him or the rest of us.

This is just rates, there is no water supply or sewerage out here, thank god. I am glad I don't have to pay water rates. Sure it is no more expensive than supplying your own water, but I am silly enough to hate paying for something I am not allowed to use during a drought, when I need it most.

These bureaucrats will strangle us to death, long before WW111 appears.

Henry L in supporting those countries actions are you[and you may well not be] saying it should be compulsory?
Are any of us, even near agreeing with China's concentration camp rehabilitation [forced faith change] move
Indy,ok just say you are right [I never will] how do we and the world remove the wrong types
Could we should we
Face it AMERICA is a nation of refugees and migrants, we are too, if all the wrong types go what country do they send us whites to
The world is in trouble,not just racism, a tool politicians use to divide and control us, but we are misusing the planet
Learning to live together give and take is not just the easy path it is the only achievable one
For example, a horrific story this day SMH father murdered his 14 year old daughter, because she would not live within his ethnic background rules [clearly if we are to live as one some need to adopt our laws rules and culture as well as their own]

Foxy wrote: “I stand by my earlier post.”
I would expect nothing less…and, sadly, nothing more.

I appreciate that what I wrote was counter-intuitive and therefore, for many people, wrong. As I said, if you don’t know you’re in a box, you can hardly think outside it.
I’ve been making the point for 30 years, that mankind, in all its history, has never run out of a resource. Perhaps one in a hundred understand that. Most don’t want it to be true and therefore, despite not being able to refute it, refuse to accept it. Equally I been pointing to the fact that almost all resources we use, and most certainly all the resources we rely on, have been becoming more not less plentiful over the course of the industrial age. But again, despite this being established beyond doubt by research such as that which I posted earlier, most people reject or disregard it because it’s beyond their level of comprehension.

The point isn’t that we are obviously using these resources, we clearly are. But the point is that, as compared to our usage the resources are becoming more plentiful.
It’s probably also useful to define a resource. Resources don’t exist in and of themselves. Man creates them. Flint is just another rock lying around until man works out how to use it to make spear-points…then, and only then, does it become a resource. Oil was just a sludge that befouled agricultural land until man made it a resource. So the resource exists because of man and whether man wants to use it. If it ceases to be of value to man, it ceases to be a resource.
To try to explain the thinking as to resource quantity, take the example of copper. There was a time in the 1970s that ‘experts’ predicted the exhaustion of copper supplies and the resultant end of the telecommunications revolution. By looking at the level of known resource and extrapolating the then current usage of copper, they were right.

/cont

/cont

What they failed to understand, which Julian Simon demonstrated , was that this was the wrong way to think about the future. What happened with copper was that (1) more resources were found, (2) optic fibre was discovered as a substitute for copper and then (3) the wireless phenomena occurred. End result, copper is now more plentiful as compared to current usage than it has been for centuries. ie we aren’t going to run out of copper despite what they said in 1970s.

I think part of the problem for most people here is that the ramifications of this type of thinking are that it destroys the entire ‘sustainability’ cult and people are so wedded to that erroneous way of thinking that they just can’t let it go.

Now, I’d just like to note that all of your claims are made without evidence and are basically factually wrong:

• “extensive pollution of air, water, and land,” Well that’s only true of developing nations. But as always happens, as they become rich enough to afford it they resolve those problems as every developed nation has done.

• “ rapid depletion of resources such as minerals and fresh water”. That’s simply false. Didn’t read my link, as a starting point, I guess. There is no depletion of resources (see above).

• “a mass extinction of other species.” Evidence?

JF AUS tries to offer an example of a lost resource – “Australia has run out of the southern bluefin tuna” But from the ‘ Status of Australian Fish Stocks Reports’ as prepared by the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics and Sciences…” This global stock [of SBFT] is classified as recovering”. So not run out at all. But this raises an important point in this issue. Often we are told that this or that species is extinct or endangered when in fact it’s merely endangered in some location. For example the Gouldian Finch is listed as endangered whereas any reasonably large pet store in Australia would likely have the finches for sale. But it endangerd in some locations, not overall.

Loudmouth, a couple of clarifications.
I would question the terms of reference that concluded 1.2 million Chinese residing in Australia.
It is possible that the correct term would more than likely be that their ancestry is of Chinese descent.
But pretty much nearly all of the respondents would be Aussies as they were born in Australia.
Also I would not invest too much in the 'one child' policy because it was not a national directive, but one directed at a particular demographic, not sure if it was aimed at those living in the country or the cities.
Either way there was a get out of jail free card because you could still have another child, but you had to pay a fee to the govt.
I suppose it was treated as some kind of fine for not complying with the one child policy.

Not nit picking but the grounds for saying we are not running out of anything are very shaky
The author of those posts claims insight for himself and lack of it for the rest of us
Water, is part of this world right now nearly out of water
Oil, have we not spoken hundreds of times about peak oil
A country home has a larder, placed and stocked for future need/use
A proven benefit in flood fire or just bad times, asking that we humans do the same is not silly
How sure can we be we can sustain growth forever, population/economic/productivity/ is forever growth the only path

This morning we hear of Russian and was it Chinese or North Koreans? flying in another country's air space
We may be much the same as 1936,watching plans for a war under our noses
Why must we have wars? yes the world is in trouble

Tragically, War appears the only way to curb population ! It should be avoidable by deploying sense but the majority of consumers are against it !

mhaze,

"Classified as recovering" does not mean actually recovering. Recovering from the brink of extinction does not mean the original population is recovering.
ABARE has no data on wild fish populations or biology of recovery. For example ABARE has no idea of ocean food web nursery devastation. ABARE can't count wild tuna. ABARE has not measured and assessed small fish nursery area required to feed wild tuna and ocean animal populations.

Starvation of already low populations of seabirds and whales has been and still is occurring wrldwide.

Oily fish populations are so devastated that salmon aquaculture has announced oil content in salmon has decreased nearly 50 percent and is expected to decrease further because of worsening shortage of oily fish worldwide.

My post above sent by itself before I finished.

Oily fish including bonito and pilchard and herring and anchovies are the food for big fish including southern bluefin tuna.
Animals including fish do not breed successfully when short of food.

Wild fish resources are devastated worldwide and the situation is worsening exponentially with critically serious impact and consequences.

Belly,
No, I am not advocating compulsory family planning, what I am saying is that for those that see population growth as a massive problem. They should look at Iran and Thailand as these countries reduced the birth rates from 6 per woman down to 2 per woman purely from government sponsored family planning. The government provided the education and supplied the means of doing so.

These two entirely different countries have demonstrated to the world that population control is possible without using draconion or inhumane methods.

To me this is far preferable than seeing those pictures of staving kids and crying babes.

OK Henry L find myself agreeing with you
Fact is the day may come when birth control is compulsory
The old saying they will only feed the ones they need comes to mind
Conspiracy, a word that turns some off instantly, thinking it's just more rubbish
But what if our chaotic world, wars population,lack of food for some even water, is a plan?
What if one day we are ruled by a dictatorship, some would, as the saying goes, welcome it as freedom, until its true nature was seen
That monument in America, forget the state, setting out rule to live by and a total world population less than one percent of to days is worth googling

""Classified as recovering" does not mean actually recovering. "

Well maybe yes, maybe no.

But what it does most definitely mean is that the resource hasn't been lost.

I've been talking about this insight (that man doesn't run out of resources) for the better part of 4 decades. And every time, every single time, the response is that we might run out of this or that. Never that we have run out of this particular resource. Because no such thing exists.

We've been told for almost 2 centuries that we'll run out of coal. But it never happens.

We've been told for almost 100 years that we're about run out of oil. But it never happens.

Ditto copper.

In the 1970s we were going to run out of food. Mass famines, even in the USA. Didn't happen - in fact more food per capita than any time in history.

But the doomsayers will continue to say doom.

And the doom listeners will continue to be suckered in.

From my own observations, recreational fishing is having a huge impact, not enough restraint !

individual,
One fish and schools of fish spawn so many that recreational fishing could not cope with catching them all.
The problem is the damaged and devastated food web nursery environment can no longer sustain supply.
Overfishing is not the actual problem.
That's why years and years of fishing restrictions have fundamentally failed.

maze,
I note wild animals are not included in dictionary definition of resource or resources. Could that be because most wild animals have already been wiped out or reduced to such low numbers they are no longer a resource? Passenger pigeons and buffalo for example.

mhaze,

This is worth another post.
How a food resource was wiped out.

http://www.audubon.org/magazine/may-june-2014/why-passenger-pigeon-went-extinct

This morning, if we care to look, I dread the actions of today's China and what it may become tomorrow
China, [and we must consider if the actions of Hong Kong protestors are the reason] is threatening both Hong Kong and Taiwan
Can it be 1936 all over again
A world still wanting to control others by force
Refugees in any coming war will completely overwhelm any country, we indeed are in trouble
In the next 50 years, with all the good well in the world, refugees as a result of war hunger climate change and for economic reasons, will be met at any border with military armed to kill

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/child-sacrifice-rumour-triggers-lynchings-in-bangladesh/news-story/a6b5d3bc55c3fcfd08c5ec314a85d611
Not racism, not xenophobia just truth
Some educated only in religion have not yet emerged from the dark ages
A HORRIBLE truth

The real enemies are from within !

Individual in the next ten years few will doubt the real enemy is in fact China
You find fault from within, we all could, but no phantom force working towards the wests down fall exists
Unless it involves Donald Trump and his unholy alliance with Russia

It doesn't have to be a force leading a downfall, it can just be selfish ego driven know it all yet ignorant lefties controlling editorial level of mainstream media.

Academics have never had so much available data as they have now. The world should be thriving, yet it's going backwards.
Text book educated people seem to lack practical understanding of how to achieve solutions to modern day types of problems

JF Aus you interest me, see most includeing you no doubt think I am a lefty
Yet in all truth I am just as much maybe more against them
As we age, some of us, look back and see we are different people than we once had been
As a youth, very very briefly, I was A LEFTY
Yet long before Poland Russia invading a European country it held prisoner showed me Communism is a fraud
Socialism, a good idea that has never been practised will not work
Reward for effort is a must
So Capitalism with a heart is my view the only way
I FEAR the next ten years will move us closer to a RIGHT WING dictatorship
So we sit on opposite sides who is right?who truly knows
This much I truly honestly think, THINK I know
Donald Trump has weakened and betrayed the western world
Right now, if never before, Russia and China would beat America in a war
And that war, if only economic, has started.

Belly, you being a lefty has never even entered my mind. I think we are likely similar.
More tomorrow. Gnite.

but no phantom force working towards the wests down fall exists
Belly,
They're not working towards a downfall deliberately ! There is a Phantom force but it works by stupidity, not planning !
China is not the biggest enemy of Australia, Australians are !

Again the lefty , well let me tell you what I believe and why
I think Labor [my reason to live] has to confront workers stopped voting for us, long ago, PC and the true left are for them a reason to walk away from us
Currently capitalism funds private companies to do what we once did cheaper
Giveing capitalism a heart is not left wing it is fairness
Both sides once, kept country jobs to help remote people we can do that again only better
Being left of the current right is a badge of honor
Thinking everyone has the right to a good life is not yet evil
While we bicker over who is left or right China is preparing to tell us all what we are and what we may be

It sure is, and that's why crap like this is happening:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gundagai-s-iconic-dog-on-the-tuckerbox-targeted-by-nasty-vandals-20190729-p52bm3.html

- I say they should just hang the bastards and be done with it -

AC we live in a world that values being noticed, these two, looked like male and female got that
You see it every day, not the me too movement but the me me.
Yes lock them up, but use the time educating them not punishment
Another interesting thing in today's print media, a woman demanded her friend, wait for it, change her dogs name, because she intended to use it for her child
Name? Tilly! I haved milked cows, more than one, with that name
While some of us join the me me movement, even risking life for a selfie, the real world gets worse
And they are totally unaware of that

Yes I hear you Belly todays lot don't seem all that bright at times...
- My friends got a dog named Tilly btw.

And scratch the 'hang 'em' part too;
- Sometimes I do go too far and need to make 'hindsight revisions';

I've got a better more fairer punishment for them.

Make them do a whole heap of community service in multiple locations all across Gundagai;
And let the members of the local community express their utter disapproval of what they've done themselves.
- I'm betting they wont forget what they did in a hurry. -

I could even understand stupid rebellious kids maybe doing something like that, but grown adults?
I wonder what on earth motivated them to do it?
- Who knows these days...

I can't explain why we are at this abysmal point in the history of mankind, but there are many factors, to blame.
In no particular order, we could probably start with the fact that we decided to bring the age of consent down to include children.
As if that wasn't bad enough we then decided to remove National Service.
So at a time when the children are told they're no longer children, we remove the only thing left that teaches them to be responsible mature young men heading into manhood, and also remove the responsibility of discipline and stewardship, from the parents and effectively let these children loose to do what children do best, run amok.
Then the school/uni system takes over and tells them they are special, and can do anything they want.
These children are then given the power to vote.
Now because there are hidden agenda around every corner, they come away with a over inflated and arrogant attitude, thinking they actually have a say and know what they are talking about.
Obviously they don't, they can't, they're children, (remember 18?).
And so they grow up to be arrogant, mis-informed, un-informed, know nothing useless and negative contributors to society.
The govts are at the top of the blame list, but the consumers ultimately are to blame.
They are the same people who accepted these far fetched and disastrous ideas which have led to these problems today.
The govt in blind rush to get elected so they can engage in major theft and corruption on a grand scale, walk a very fine line between 'buying' votes and balancing the books.
They have inflamed the problems by giving into irrelevant minorities, at the expense of the majority.
And here we are today.
This is why I promote the idea of independents, in the hope that they remain truly independent.
We should introduce a system of historical accountability, just like the poor guys who have been victimised by these maggots about something that happened forty years ago.
Let's see them enjoy their big fat retirement package and perks after that.

We could have went deeper,asked about mass migration and refugees, both threaten the west
You cannot transfer poverty and think you fixed it
Too about the continuing small but deadly wars breaking out
Or even confronted a truth China threatens us, and just maybe war is inevitable
Racial hate will fix nothing but it may kill many

Belly, if you look around we have many factions (countries) competing for the title of "King of the World".
The latest joke is the Chinese leader has gone and made himself a ruler for life, as if an emperor or a royal appointment due by birth as a descendant of the original conqueror of China.
So it goes that for some reason these guys seaking political status are never satisfied with just being the leaders of a country, no they all want to rule the world.
As I've said before, this can never happen, even for the likes of the Rothschilds and their beloved builderberg group, they too will have to negotiate with other aspirants of world leadership and dominance, because it's never going to be a one horse race.
The current front runners are, in my view, China and Islam.
I include Islam because a famous Imam once said, "we will take over the world without expending one bullet".
And if we look around us, internationally, we see a clear and evident pattern of migration of the two countries, but the clear winner is Islam.
Unlike the Chinese who have shown their hand too soon, by electing a Chinese Lord Mayor in Melbourne, and thereby given us a chance to head them off before they can 'really' take hold.
The Muslims are slowly 'infesting' the general population and planting seeds, literally, in the form of reproducing offspring at an alarming rate, so much so that it gives some, cause for concern that eventually we will be a Muslim majority, unless steps are taken to curb this threat or infestation.
It is one of the preachings of Islams, and not my opinion .

Maybe China will not bring on a war,would not bet on it as we see increasing aggression from that country
Japanese arming,and changing it constitution, maybe they needed to
But as everyday brings headlines about petty wars and petty division within all countries we should see we need to monitor our leaders closely

This country will never be a Muslim majority one
Any open full on west V Islamic countries war will end with millions dead and the west winning
China however is much stronger today than Hitler's Germany was in 1936, I think we are [the world] about that close to war now
We seem to like feeling threatened by things that may never take place, EG Islamic take over of the western world

Dear Belly,

Australia has a Chinese future.

For 70 years I have come across Chinese people in Australia and they have always been polite and helpful and clean and sober and happy.

Why is all this China bashing happening?

Dear JF Aus,

No one is bad mouthing Chinese. But what I have been saying is that Australia has a Chinese future and Australia is being transformed from an Anglo Australian nation to a Sino Australian nation. To me it's just an observable fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

Guys I speculate that China is slowly 'buying' it's way into Australia.
But Islam is slowly populating it's way into Australia.
JF, I don't think anyone is 'China bashing', merely pointing out a possible scenario.
As we have already witnessed, Melbourne has already had a Chinese Mayor and the reason he was elected was simply because there is a strong representation of Chinese in Melbourne.
But that was not the fault of the Chinese, it was the fault of the Assies, for being too slack to get off their arse to vote, because it was not compulsory to vote in local elections.
I am warning everyone up front, to keep an eye on both these races, as I fear they will be trying to take control.
It will be worse if they realise they can't win and so join forces.
You people have had it too good for too long, just wait till that happens.
God help us, yeah like that's going to happen.
No we have to help ourselves, and start now and not when it is too late.
We must first begin by removing these filthy lying pigs, not only from Canberra but from the face of the Earth.
If they are allowed to communicate, they will still be influential in the running of the country, just like lobbyists and retired politicians.
Sound harsh?
You bet!

Remember, that joke, it came to life as the Gold Coast grew
It went this way, America tried to buy Australia, but the Japanese would not sell it to them
Now it is the Chinese, we loved to hate every group of new arrivals
Even frighten our kids with boogeyman storeys
But in the end it is a distraction
While we bicker about threats that do not exist we forget to watch the ones that are very real'
Far too easy to blame others for our own lack of ability to achieve
The things we feel entitled to

Dear Belly,

Have you visited Sydney in the past 5 years? If yes, what is your take of the city's demographics?

Came to me that we could endlessly bring up the world many had been born in'
Far different than today's one
But are the good old days always good
No is probably the answer but, we knew our neighbors, even walked into their homes as they walked into ours
The cracker night saw whole streets together around one huge bonfire, while some of the bigger kids blew up letter boxes
The Waltons man, weekly visits, the others too who arrived at your door goody's in hand then came to get the payments

Dear Belly,

Please don't avoid the question by wandering down memory lane. Or should I assume that you have never been to Sydney and therefore do not have a clue about who lives in Sydney?

Mr Opinion, well you lost me, yes I have lived in Sydney, even went back often
By the way this thread, started by me, is about both how we once lived and how we do today
Never avided you or your question
How about you answer one of mine , can you tell the difference between an Asian and the Chinese
Summer Hill in Sydney has been home to Chinese for over a hundred years
And stand by my post xenophobia just shifts is targets, as shown in my post
By the way last visit to Granville, then HQ of my union, showed it had gone from Pacific Islander to most Christian Lebanese

Belly,

"this country will never be a Muslim majority one".
My comment about the Muslims taking over with out one bullet being fired, was a quote from an Imam, some time ago.
If you follow the subtleties of the Koran and it's teachings,you will find versus explicitly telling it's followers to go out and procreate, with the specific intention of becoming the rulers of a nation, but more ambitious again, to take over the world.
The way to do it was slow and undetected.
If you want proof of concept, just refer back to the Mayor of Melbourne.
The man had been in Australia, for so little time, that he could not even speak English.
So it is that the risk of a Muslim run govt is very likely especially as we have a two pronged approach currently at play, if we take the Korans teachings seriously.
One method and it is like the avant garde, is to infiltrate with migration, thereby having people well entrenched helping and leading the second and longer game, breeding, reproduction to eventually have the numbers to enact the plan.
The plan would be, as in Melbourne, to amass and muster all the followers and will be instructed to vote.
As Aussies are lazy and lax, any other candidates will be a shoe-in, as in the case of the Melbourne Mayor.
Think it's fanciful?
Just keep reminding yourself of Melbourne's Lord Mayor.

One reason the world is truly in trouble love some have for dividing us
It has always been so, a racist based need to hate someone
Yes Muslims have bigger families, but it would take a hundred years to out breed us
Within every faith refugees from that faith live, as first generation migrants/refugees die those leaving increase
Rather debate the threads intended path, is China a threat?

Has the west been weakened by Trump's love of Russia China North Korea
Yes the war on terror will continue mass deaths to
That too will lead to more leaving/weakening that faith who will we target next? some group will turn up,it always has

Belly,

I think there are good and not so good people in all sides of politics.
F.y.i.
Please not what Mr Opinion is coming up with on the following thread. It seems to involve reason why things are not getting done as they should be, likely reason why the world is going backwards and not moving forward as it should be.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8866&page=6

JF Aus I have never doubted the trouble with politicians is they are politicians
All sides,but if we look at [hate them or not] Menzies Whitlam, Hawke Keating Howard Rudd, they all held us in their hands
However my side is finding new ways to bring office managers and assistants to sitting members into the fold
Once you could still see the dirt under the fingernails of a few hard workers
Too once the Nationals, as the then country party bragged those on my side had never milked a cow
Now they know more about mining and investing in water than a cow
We are in a period that may never end, that sees mud fear lies and threats used to win voters who in the end seem not to care enough to understand politics is the only way they can have a say

Belly,

no you missed the key elements to my point, and that it would not take a hundred years.
It would only take from eighteen years, as the children come of voting age.
Because that is the insidious plan, by copulating and thereby populating the race slowly grows to a point where they are enough of age and enough in numbers to effect the outcomes of votes or referendums and laws.
Don't forget, Aussies are complacent, lazy and laissez faire, so when it comes to voting on anything, they can't be bothered unless forced to by law.
That's how local govt elections are won, just like the SSM survey, the NO voters couldn't be bothered because it was a sh!t topic and was not taken seriously, and so the result made it appear that the YES backers had won when in fact the NO's had a clear majority.
WHY?
Because only 70% bothered to get off their arse to respond to the survey.
Out of the 70%, 40% were YES, but that ignores the fact that the remaining 30% were of the don't care and NO camp.
So Belly, we only need a well organised group to step up at any election or survey and a minority can easily take control.
Once they are voted in it's too late, we can only bitch and belly ache(pun intended) about what we could'a, should'a, would'a, done.
Belly if we are not more pro-active and show a bit more national interest, we are doomed to whatever others decide, leaving our future and well being in the hands of others.
If you want to know what a life under Chinese rule would look like, just look at Hong Kong right now, and the same goes if your wondering what life under a Islamic rule would be like, just look at Turkey, or even the middle East.
You know, maybe what Aussies need is a reality check, maybe a dose of communism or Islamism might be a good thing, to wake everyone up to fact that they've had it so good for so long.

An interesting story in this days press, it pointed out migration is the driving force in growth in this country
Too the birth rates or not, most of the increase in our population is driven by migration
I personally think growth is a time bomb
That forever growth will become an enemy, too that overpopulation is here right now, more so in some parts than others
We beg for constant growth constant profits but in the end it cannot go on forever
Just maybe we, soon, will understand population is behind many of our troubles or soon will be

certainly be no need to immigrate nearly as many if we stopped murdering around 100000 unborn babies each year.

ALTRAV,

For your information - of the eligible Australians
who expressed a view on same sex marriage the
majority indicated that the law should be changed
to allow a same sex couple to marry with 61.6%
responding Yes and 38.4% responding No.

This translates to nearly 8 out of 10 eligible
Australians (79.5^) having expressed their view.

The Australian Bureau of Statistics tells us that
all states and territories recorded a majority yes
response. 133 of the 150 Federal Electoral Divisions
recorded a majority yes response and only 17 of the
150 Federal Electoral Divisions recorded a majority
No response.

Further information on responses and participation within
each state and territory is available through the menu
at:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/1800.0

Foxy, dear, are you now suggesting that the survey was representative of all those eligible to participate.
You do realise that not everyone bothered to come out, because it was not compulsory.
The truth is the sentiment was a clear and resounding NO, and you know it was.
Look Foxy, someone else has done the math, I was happy with my numbers, even though I was light.
On another thread I was corrected, by two posters, where I was shown, mathematically, the NO result was in fact the clear winner, taking all of the eligible respondents into consideration, not just the ones who felt compelled to.
The result showed us that the YES camp were better organised and made sure ALL their respondents got to comment.
Where-as the NO vote were mostly disgusted and incensed that they had to go out of there way to do something they didn't like or want, so whatever it was, 20 or 30% did not bother so you can add them to the NO camp.
So your going to tell me that less than 15,000,000 Australians are eligible to vote or participate in surveys?
Is not Australia's population in excess of 25,000,000?
Sure there are children or ineligible people in that number but still.
Like most things political, they never ever truly follow the will of the people, so why would this one be any different?

ALTRAV,

Whether you like it or not the facts remain that
8 out of 10 eligible Australians - 79.5%
expressed their views on same sex marriage.
Those that chose not to don't count. It was
their choice - not to vote for whatever reason.
They now have to live with the consequences of
their actions. The legislation has been passed.
In a democracy that's the way things work.
If you choose not to take part you have no one to
blame but yourself. No excuses.

150 Federal Electoral Divisions recorded a majority yes
response whereas only 17 of the 150 Federal Electoral
Divisions recorded a majority of No responses.

You choose not to vote - you lose.

Grin and bear it. Your fault!

Foxy, you can play the numbers game all you like, in the end the facts say one thing but the truth will always be the truth.
And just because a few people for whatever reason did not bother to indicate their preference because they were utterly disgusted with the whole thing, (I know many people scoffed at the idea of not bothering because they were NO people).
Where-as I did not come across one YES person who did not vote.
I would suggest you look at the numbers in seeing what they don't say.
You will see a different number altogether, with the TRUE result being a resounding NO!
I did not do the numbers, two OLO'ens did, and they too came away with the same conclusion.

Foxy as you will know the numbers game is the only game in town
In fact politics has always been about numbers, the numbers who want do not want changes'
The same sex ability to wed is not confined to Australia
All over the world voters said yes
While this morning stocks and commodities fall because of Trump's trade war we talk about the disappointment of those who voted no?
America had to do something about its trade deficit, but I doubt undermining the whole world trading system is it

ALTRAV,

With the decision of same sex marriage people were
given the right to participate in
the decision-making process. Those who chose not to
participate got the results that they deserved.
(you snooze, you lose). The same as if you chose not
to vote in an election, you can't complain if the
government that gets elected is not the one you wanted.

Saying that many people were opposed against same
sex marriage is a furphy. If they were so strongly
opposed they would have made their vote count where
it mattered. Obviously they didn't. So arguing about
something that they had a chance to participate in
and chose not to because they felt "disgusted" as
you claim - did not achieve anything for them - and
as we know actions do speak louder than words. So
cut the blabber now. They had the opportunity to do
something about it and they blew it. Your argument
is mute.

Dear Belly,

We know that in politics it is definitely a
numbers game. Every vote counts.

Foxy, NO, and you know very well that just because someone doesn't feel like getting off his arse to do something, does not mean he does not believe in it.
This SSM thing repulsed so many people, they even refused to discuss it, let alone acknowledge the fact that we had to have anything to do with it.
You know very well how controversial the SSM thing was/is, that's why these 30% or so were not going to engage in an activity they found extremely repugnant and disgusting.
So it is that the numbers do not tell the true story and therefore are untrue, and so do not reflect the true state of SSM.
This is not unique to SSM, it is a common human attitude and has been so for as long as humans have been around so I am certainly not surprised, and neither should anyone else, it is the norm.

Foxy nothing including rage, can change he numbers who voted yes
Too the very minor number who did not vote
Mathematics of politics matter

Belly, sorry but in life the only thing that matters is the TRUTH.
Everything else is a construct.
Why do you think I always speak of demanding the truth?
Why is it, when those like yourself, foxy, te al. are continually challenged.
It is because you speak YOUR truth, your beliefs, your dreams and aspirations.
Foxy is a perfect point in case.
She projects a wonderful aura and vision, and it is wonderful.
BUT it is not real, therefore, it is not true.
She speaks of what she perceives things to be, or would like things to be.
In the real world it is much more negative and aggressive and people are having to fight, maybe metaphorically, but life is NOT the panacea that Foxy attempts to portray or project.
And it is precisely this type of, all be it misguided, message that I challenge, because it is not a true interpretation and description of life today.
We are being overrun by too many bad things, and no-one seems to care.
So if I come off the villain, so be it, I just don't have it in me to support or promote an unrealistic or unnatural cause or untruth.

ALTRAV,

Arguing with you is about as effective as ...
No, never mind.

What matters in political life are the results, the
outcomes. When I speak on issues, it is evidence
based. Yours is merely blather.

As for your coming across as a villain?
No. sadly what you come across as, is a wind-bag full
of hot air.

Regarding same-sex marriage - the reality is its actions
that matter - not feelings or your version of the "truth,"
in influencing decision making, and the passing of
legislation.
Being silent and or "disgusted"does not achieve anything
in policy-making.

Sorry ALTRAV, note your posts are far better than on my arrival back
But not interested in your thoughts, the damage has been done old mate
And too your instance that only your thoughts matter has reinforced my just skipping over you here
Maybe that is another reason the world is in trouble, we take our positions and refuse to see the truth maybe in the middle
Headlines this day is the return in housing prices a dead cat bounce
Well no, more like a thunderstorm of falling cats when it hits

Foxy, nice try.
The evidence and the truth are right there, if you are an honest and truthfull person, and not the opposite, more like the politicians who
passed the SSM law, against the true wishes of the majority, not the usual loud and annoying minority.
Anyway, I know the truth, and at least I can sleep at night relieved that the majority of Aussies still have some morals and convictions.

Belly. it's OK, no harm done.
Just thought I would clarify things for those who have trouble with the truth.
I merely passed on the fact that the numbers were worked out by two other OLO'ens, and not me, just showing that it was not just me who found this rather obvious fact.

ALTRAV,

Yes indeed.

I can sleep at night knowing that those who were
eligible to vote - and there was close to 80%
turnout - which by any standards is a MAJORITY -
which ever way you slice it - the majority voted
YES!

Moral fibre - you betcha!

Foxy,
this is why your topic went on and on like it did.
YOU DON"T LISTEN!
80% is not 100%.
60% of 80% is 48%, is not a majority.
You may need some time to take this in.
Don't really need to repeat myself for the 12th time.
If you don't get it talk to the other commentors, at least the ones who are still awake or bothering to read your repetitious waffle.
Read you on another topic.

ALTRAV,

The legislation has been passed by our
Parliament - not because of
those who voted No, or chose to not vote, but
because of the voters who voted YES!

You are arguing with yourself.

Move on!

Foxy,

You obviously don't take advice very well.
You can preach about govt this, or parliament that.
You believe your truth.
I'll believe THE truth, luckily the truth is the truth.
Even you can't explain your way around the truth.
I will leave you in your world where you can make up and believe any convenient truth you decide.

Till next topic!

Foxy in those extremely funny posts your detractor confirmed my opinion
See the rawmaths are as you said clearly a majority, big majority, of AUSTRALIANS voted yes, much the same in many other countries
Is the world in trouble? yes and I highlight the inability to even consider truth from bias as one reason
While here need to highlight again my view current events point to the west being weakened by Trump and his actions

Dear Belly,

Banjo Paterson tried to politely
tell ALTRAV on another discussion -
about the 3 poisons in life - according to
Tibetan Buddhists - that of -
ignorance, hatred, narrow-mindedness. I suspect
it went over his head.

He could of course write to the PM regarding same-sex
marriage and tell the PM that it should not have been
legislated - because of the people who didn't choose
to vote. I'm sure the PM will find an appropriate reply
for him and his "truth."

Enjoy your week-end.

Bias and truth are rarely the same Foxy
No matter truth is we voted and it is in place
I can not see on every side, why racism gets a run before true effort to live together
If world dictatorship comes, and it may well, the first outcome maybe living together if not by choice by being forced to
Wish it was not so but the failure to end hunger wars and mass movement of refugees/migrants may fuel the next war
Unless the trade war gets hot