Aiden said;
BILL SHORTEN IS CORRECT!

From an energy consumer's viewpoint, all energy carriers are sources of energy.

Aiden I am well aware that is Bill Shorten's view.
I do not want a PM with the consumer's view, I want a PM with the
technical view of the problem. By now he should have been sat down
and had it explained to him. I listened carefully to what he said and
I am as near certain as it is possible to be that he thinks it can be
just what we need.
Re ammonia, well that is what is proposed. I have no idea whether
that makes it possible or impossible. I suspect that is a financial decision.

Bazz,
> Aiden I am well aware that is Bill Shorten's view.
But you wrongly thought it was incorrect.

> I do not want a PM with the consumer's view,
Are you sure about that? The government, and many on this forum, try to deride Shorten for being out of touch with consumers.

>I want a PM with the technical view of the problem.
Which problem exactly? The technical problems of doing various things with hydrogen don't alter the fact that it's very useful stuff!

> By now he should have been sat down and had it explained to him.
Yet you're the one who needed the basics explained to him (hydrogen is normally H2; I can tell you the exceptions if you like).

Aidan, "Hasbeen,
I suggest you update your research, because the days when ethanol required more energy inputted than it returned are long gone.
[Note to Toni Lavis: obviously this excludes solar energy captured by plants.]"

Well what do you know, Aidan tells us tractors & the like now run on fairy dust. I suppose it is what you would expect from someone who believes wind generation is now cheaper than coal fired.

Well mate, have a look at the cost of power for Victoria & South Australia last Thursday 24Th Jan., when it got a bit warm.

Their grid was paying up to $14,000 per Mwah for their wind/solar power, where in NSW & Queensland they were paying $105 for coal fired power. That works out that the power for each average household in SA cost $565 for the day, only a little less than my bill for 3 months coal fired power. Even with that 26,000 consumers were cut off in rolling blackouts. It cost $932,000,000 {yes that is almost a billion] for just the 3 states power for one day.

I suggest you go back to re do your research mate, the utter garbage you are pushing is just that, garbage.

As someone pointed out, 3 days of those prices for wind power would pay the total cost for a HELE plant with the money wasted.” That’s a power plant that could last 70 years, and provide electricity at under $50/MW.

Just watch the next round of power price increases in Vic, & SA for their power.

Nothing so stupid as a green politician, unless it is those who elect them.

Aidan,

The method of storage of energy efficiency is measured by the amount of energy released by a unit stored, compared to the amount of energy required to produce a unit stored, and the production and storage of hydrogen is energy intensive. So today to store enough energy in hydrogen to generate 1kWhr, you need 3kWhrs of energy, so much so that any other battery is many times more efficient.

Secondly, as hydrogen is one of the most explosive substances (while the explosive limits of hydrogen in air range from about 18 -- 60 % the flammable limits are from 4 -- 75 %) the use of hydrogen gas comes with vast risks for producers and consumers.

just saw this.

https://arena.gov.au/blog/hydrogen-future-australian-renewables/

Zeppelins might fly. Ammonia as commodity may be viable if it can be made cheaply enough using solar energy, but using an explosive gas at 50 times the pressure of lpg to power vehicles in populated areas is unwise. No wonder some people don't question fifty year projections.