America the country we grew up loving, has always put its financial interests first
In ww 1 and 2 it profited greatly by staying out of those wars until it had no choice
Maybe ww 1 its secondary reason for entering the war was to protect loans it needed repaying
Trump is ,while confronting for most of the world, not the only POTUS to put Americas wants before free trade
In more than 50 years America has interfered in south American affairs in the name of its trade and financial interests
At Times the acts of its CIA are no different the Hitlers SS in toppling elected government
And Gobbles may have invented the art of the lie but America owns it today

NO not an anti American just a realist
ww2 saw Roosevelt bargain away even all the gold England could muster
Bases and much more as they became very rich supplying Briton
The tragic CIA backed murders of south Americans in such as Chile and Argentina backed by CIA murders all took place
Trump continues by doing great harm to world trade in a wish to sell more than they buy
Honest open eyed look at America is over due

I'm a realist too.
http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list

Found this while I was there.
You might find it interesting Belly.
http://williamblum.org/books/americas-deadliest-export

And this too:
http://www.amazon.com/How-US-Creates-thole-Countries/dp/0999874713

At least one on that list was justified in 1975.

So Belly what do you think of the Poms, Dutch, French, German, Spanish, & Portuguese, who unlike the yanks, who merely made money in other countries, invaded, took over & ran as their own, most other countries in the world.

I'm afraid some peoples unreasoning hate of Trump is unhinging their judgement on most things. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Dear Belly,

In Trump We trust?

The following link might make us all question
that sentiment:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/03/03/the-biggest-problem-with-trumps-border-wall-isnt-money-its-getting-the-land/?utm_term=.0e462a38baaf

assistant professor of law at the University
Foxy,
Yeah, right, another "expert" from the rose-coloured glasses brigade paid by those who feed him.

Belly- Goebbels relationship to Edward Bernays and Sigmund Freud is interesting.

http://criticalthink.info/webindex/bernays.htm

CM read your link ACC well good to see you understand was it indy? not sure forgive if it was not
The 1975 thing, giggle worthy
Yes the drunk Curr ended our government, yes it had strayed in to near lunacy by then
Face it every colonialist country first wanted to profit
SEE Belgian Congo
This thread is not about them is your blind support for America saying because others did it they can too
Are we ordinary folk in any way in charge of our world
Can it be true, America PTY LTD is starting a trade war that could leave some broke?
PS this will get me hatred from some on my side, 11/11 1975 saw me ready for revolution, the big man was great some in his cabinet not
Then now forever I will consider the CIA/SS had a roll in it,BUT often think the big man may have known it was coming,and not told anyone so he could use it in the election that removed us, see you can be critical of your side

For a bit of historical perspective about how financial self-interest has always driven US politics and their economy -

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/addicted.pdf

Rache-

In reference to your post.

This was an interesting sentence ...

Helen Caldicott, pediatrician, peace activist, author of “Missile Envy’

I'm not sure that this is a person I would take seriously.
______

George Hageman- a peacenik- has an excellent two part podcast "Philosophy of War- Why we fight"-

He breaks down the question into several perspectives.

Audio here

http://media.libsyn.com/media/geo47/The_Philosophy_of_War_1.mp3

http://media.libsyn.com/media/geo47/The_Philosophy_of_War_2.mp3

Or text here

http://militaryhistorypodcast.blogspot.com/2008/03/philosophy-of-war-1.html

http://militaryhistorypodcast.blogspot.com/2008/04/philosophy-of-war-2.html
____

Perhaps men are the cause of war- male animals appears to do much of the defense of the group- Male chimpanzees, gorillas, etc tend to dominate from memory. Maybe there are social, endocrinal or even physical reasons for male behavior. Maybe we don't know as much about the brain, society or animal group behavior as we think we do. Maybe there are good reasons for the split in roles between male and female in both mankind and animal kind. Perhaps the defense of the group is still necessary. Certain anthropologists and zoologists have done empirical studies but few have extended it to theoretical work.

Individual,

You seem somewhat confused.

Yes, Prof. Gerald S. Dickinson is an Assistant
Professor of Law at the University of Pittsburgh.
And he certainly is an expert - focusing on
constitutional property, state and local government
law, land use, affordable housing law and policy
and urban development. He's the perfect person to
write about the biggest problem for Trump's
border wall (which isn't the money) it's getting
the land. Prof. Dickinson knows what he's talking
about.

I don't understand your problem with him. You have
always claimed that discussions should be left up to the
experts in their fields - have you changed your mind now?

rache,

Thanks for the link.

Since warfare is highly unpleasant for the combatants,
why is warfare such a common phenomenon? An answer frequently
offered, it seems, is that we humans are naturally
warlike. Many people assume that "human nature" includes some
kind of an aggressive "instinct", and popular writers have
advanced this view widely. Thus Konrad Lorenz, an expert on
animal behaviour, claimed that humanity shared an aggressive
drive with lower animals, and Robert Ardrey, a playwright, argued
that we are descended from "killer apes" and so are destined
to do battle with one another.

An obvious problem with this approach is that one could just
as easily make the reverse argument. Most people and
societies are not at war most of the time - so on this
evidence we could say that human nature includes a "peaceful
instinct" and that we are destined to co-operate with one
another.

In fact we are all capable ob both aggression and friendship,
war and peace - but we are not biologically driven to them.
Some people are willing to fight, some people are not.

Then why war? The answer is that war occurs as a result of
a political decision - usually a decision by older men
that younger men should fight for what the older men believe
to be worth fighting for. There can be no war unless
the leaders of at least two societies with conflicting
interests decide that they prefer war to any alternative
means of settling their differences.

Whether we choose to destroy our civilisation or save it
is a collective decision and hopefully it is one that will
be made within our lifetimes. But as Helen Caldicott
has pointed out - if more and more nuclear weapons are
built, and if more sophisticated means of delivering
them are devised - and if more nations get control of
these vile devices, then we surely risk our own destruction.

If ways are found to reverse that process, then we can
divert unprecedented energy and resources to the real
problems that face us, including poverty, disease,
overpopulation, injustice, oppression, etc.

I offer the last months American stock exchange as evidence how Trumps plan is doing
And refuse to let uninformed posters glorify the man
America PTY LTD still wants to control the world every bit as much as China does

Belly,
It is obvious from your posts here, and on other threads, that your hatred for Trump,and the USA in general, is paramount in your life. Yet you give no reason for that.

I can only see it as the 'tall poppy syndrone' simply because Trump is rich and the USA is a rich country. To my mind it is lucky that the US has all the resourses it has but it was hard work by its citizens that made it rich.

You do not appear to have the same hatred for other colonial powers that made wealth from exploiting what others had.

I think we are very fortunate that the US entered WW11 as the world would now be a very different place if it had not. For that we should be forever grateful.

It seems excessive envy can turn to hate

In reply to Foxy- The very reason for a renewed arms race is the failure of the UN to perform its primary function because of project creep. The UN was never meant to be a world government. Probably the main cause of the current world instability is population. If the UN had have addressed this in the 70's then we wouldn't be in our current malaise. Unfortunately the UN can only be as strong as the people that run it- perhaps we need to be looking for UN reps and leaders with different resumes- but I think the problem is much deeper- needs a root and branch approach. Aggression I've found is more of a symptom than a cause when there is no profit for the aggressors. Like criminal investigation- means, motive, opportunity.

I wonder at Foxy's view of warfare and where her apparent disrespect of the participants has originated. I'd be interested if her ancestors participated in a conflict. I think that females are perhaps wired to capitulate in a confrontation- maybe this is some sort of genetic survival mechanism.

At one time I read the biography of Marie Curie- her father was a chemist- she taught Polish under Russian occupation at 16- a form of warfare (aggression) against tyranny. She was a woman who fought with her mind- except in desperate circumstances usually there is an attempt to protect women and children from the realities of war. Perhaps they will need to be trained. Marie Curie was a great woman- I wish more were as great. There is a theory from "The Prince" that war can only be delayed to the advantage of the enemy. Ironically those with peace in their hearts (the do gooders) may be the cause of war because they are incapable of action. The "Do Gooders" are the tools of the "Radicals" who don't care about peace at all.

Henry L no enough are you ok? how did you ever ever get the idea my anti TRUMP stance is hatred?
FAIRDINKUM you need to re consider your words
IF any one who holds a different view is treated like that you need help
Make America Great Again, an empty slogan that put a fool/con man/ self destructive fool in the white house
SURELY you know by now more than half America dislikes him, do not trust him
Too free world leaders share those sentiments
Henry L you seem to need help
What a colorless uninteresting place this forum would be if only CONSERVATIVES from the very lost right posted here
Just think a page for one single point of view and a heap of verbal stones/lies to heave at any one who dares to hold another view

Further to the unhinged rant from Henry L every colonial country, as said in this thread
Used the country's they invaded as cash cows, here too murdering its original people who they claimed never existed
MUST I post about every one of them?
When talking about the latest and maybe worst
America

You have always claimed that discussions should be left up to the
experts in their fields
Foxy,
Exactly not ! I have always maintained discussions & decisions should be left to people who know, not experts !

Belly,
Have a look at ALL your anti Trump posts, You must foam at the mouth when typing them. Excessive envy of his wealth is the cause.

Individual,

I'm glad that you finally agree.
The Professor is a man who really knows. (smile).

The Professor is a man who really knows. (smile).
Foxy,
Is that just your blind faith in that myth re educated people or have you got proof ?

HenryL,

If Trump is rich it's only because he plays and cheats the system. As well as his fraudulent Trump University he quickly closed down his Trump Foundation before the depth of financial abuse could be fully exposed.
He's the beneficiary of massive systemic tax fraud carried out by his father and continues the practice through his own affairs.

He whines about China and Mexico yet has his own lines of products manufactured there using cheap labour and also employs illegal immigrant labour on his building sites and golf courses.

He even charges the taxpayer for the golf carts the Secret Service use to follow him around while he plays.

Unlike you I would not be happy with being governed by a lying, cheating, narcissistic, corrupt misogynist who surrounds himself with yes-men, thinks a tariff is something paid to the USA by another country and with little understanding of international diplomacy - but I don't "hate" him.

Henry L please supply me with a list of other things/people I hate
Hate, mate you truly do need to reconsider your rant
I know of no one I hate
Being one of millions around the world who hold my view about the con man POTUS my view is not extreme
Yours is, wealth?
Do you think that is the reason I highlighted him here
Or that my view that America PTY LTD a financially colonialist country
WW2 see earlier posts this thread Roosevelt demanded every bit of gold England and its colony's had, and much much more, in payment for it supplying war aid
It then let Russia suffer more than it needed to in fact Russia had more to do with victory in Europe than America
History Henry, an unfortunate truth your Ostrich impression can not avoid

Hey Rache,
"He's the beneficiary of massive systemic tax fraud carried out by his father and continues the practice through his own affairs."

Trumps been audited by the IRS many times.
I'm not certain he's done anything illegal that would be exposed on his tax returns;
- Though I don't doubt he's employed shady business practices over the years -
I think it's just as likely he hasn't paid a dime in tax (because he uses the system to his advantage like all rich people do) and doesn't want it publicly known.

Belly,
I do not know if you hate anyone else but it is obvious, from your many posts, that you hate Trump. Only you can explain WHY, if you care to do so. Given that you do not personally know Trump one can only speculate that the 'tall poppy syndrone' comes into it.

Rache,
Your comments about US politics fell on deaf ears as I could not be less interested in US politics. Why any Aussy would interest themselves in the politics of that country is very strange. I have seen many US governments, and Presidents, come and go and not one has made any difference to us or our relationship. US politics appears to be a three ring circus, so do not bother. From memory, one President named Kennedy was shot. Glad the US got involved in WW11 though.

Henry L still waiting for that list I have an inquiring mind and would like to know what I think
You mate have no idea what I think
It seems likely you too do not understand the world wide opposition to the worst POTUS that country ever had
Research his lies
Read his saying one thing today another tomorrow
Understand YOU have no right
To ever stall informed debate by claiming those who disagree with you are haters

Belly,
Who told you to hate Trump so much ?

HenryL.,

You asked why would any Aussie be interested in the
US.

Well for a start the US-Australian treaty alliance
has been the bedrock of Canberra's defence strategy
for decades. Australia is the only country in the
world to have fought alongside the US in every
major conflict since WWI.

In his 2014 book, "Dangerous Allies," former Australian
PM - Malcolm Fraser argued that while an alliance with
the US may have been beneficial during the Cold War, the
new reality was Australia needed to focus on establishing
greater independence in the Asia-Pacific region. He
argued that Australia needed to end its "strategic
dependence" on the US, because the rise of China and
rebalancing of world power out weighed the benefits.

Fraser warned that as America's southern "linchpin"
Australia would be vulnerable if the US went to war in the
Pacific.

Indy I like you bloke
No true
But will look else ware for comment based on higher intellectual skills
See I hate no one
Hate is hurting the hater, and often points to the hater having a lower than usual understanding
Face it folks Trump scammed you too, yes Hillary was the wrong person to run
But Trump conned enough American red necks to become POTUS
Then started to betray them, tax cuts for high income
Cuts for the poorest
I do not hate him just understand him, a thing some do not.

Trump never scammed me, he's just turned out to be a rather weak leader when he promised otherwise.

I do not hate him just understand him, a thing some do not.
Belly,
Hang on a minute there, aren't you a die-hard Labor voter ?

Belly,
Your posts reveal that you hate Trump.

I do not care if you think he is the worst President the US has had, although it seems Nixon was a crook and Clinton was sexually involved with a staff member, (can't remember her name). But really I am not interested. You express your hatred well. You do not seem to understand that his popularity is only the business of US citizens.

Foxy,
I know we have a defense treaty with the US, it is called the ANZUS treaty but this does not mean that we should be interested in their internal politics which, as I said, appears to be a three ring circus.

I do not see why we should be interested in US politics any more than any other country. Certainly not to the extent that some appear to do. We have far more important issues here that affect our daily lives.

Henry L Individual please for give me
I became rude in my responses to you both
Some thing I have promised not to do
Yes you both confronted me, indy with the short sharp quite bitter, but empty charge
Henry even more so
See you challenged my right to a different opinion, with an untruth
HATE? can you truly think any one who is greatly concerned about the king of the uniformed hillbilly bigots must hate him
Find me some one I hate, any one, I have looked and failed to find any one
But I can, without looking, find you two posters who seem incapable of considered thought other than their own

Henry L not letting you off your own hook
Your view demands more attention
As at least [ current polling] half of Americans, lessor numbers but substantial Germans, French, English and here, share my view
Are they haters
Sure while my figures about Americans come from polling I guess the others
Are those who do not share your view haters?
I rather think you not those with a different view need to look at modern America

HenryL.,

I find that not to care about what is going on in
the US under President Trump - to me is problematic
because warfare remains a possibility within our
region. Even among the most sceptical analysts there
is little doubt now that
the actions of Chinese maritime agencies in
the South China Sea are being endorsed by China's
leadership and who knows what the actions of the
US President will be. Therefore the potential for
conflict in the South China Sea, should be of concern.

Beyond this immediate effort any hostilities would
involve massive disruption to the finely calibrated
trade networks in East Asia that underpin the prosperity
we take for granted and that our Asian neighbours have
come to appreciate. Beyond the damage to our trading
partners there would be a direct impact on Australia's
economy were war to break out in the South China Sea.

Anyway, that is only one area of concern. There are
many others. I shan't list them all here. However,
I am sure that you do understand where I am coming
from. It is the very fact as you stated - because
the current US political situation is a "circus"
that we should all be concerned - because what they
decide to do will involve us and will have an effect
on our country.

See you challenged my right to a different opinion,
Belly,
No-one does that. We're only trying to open your eyes & mind that there's a world beyond the Australian Labor Party, a world that's getting worse by the day & attacking people who are trying to make it better simply is not the way to go.

Indy old mate your opinion of my mind is funny but better describes you
Donald Trump rode to power on lies
And Promises he made, people like you included your biases and thought he was going to address them too
Barnum and Bailey at least knew we know it was just for show
Trumps long list of anti women acts
His yards long false claims , his followers from Fox used the truth with contempt
He fooled you
He harmed Conservative America
He is the very worst threat to world peace, he empowered China
YOU will see him fall, see his followers rush away from him,, but YOU will mindlessly chant deep state
Clear thought is our first defense as this world confronts a deeply damaged America and asks can we trust them ever again

Donald Trump rode to power on lies
Belly,
And how do our politicians get into power ? Or, do you think empty promises are less vile than white lies ?

Foxy,
I have used the word 'circus' to describe US politics and their electoral system for as long as I can recall, not just recently. A circus it is when you look at all the goings on to select the candidates and continues on and on for months prior to the actual election. No better to leave it to them and say congrats after the event. The last thing the yanks want is us, or anyone from here, giving opinions on their internal affairs. It has never made one scrap of difference to us what their presidential election outcome has been and is none of our business.

Just the same as I do not care about the current riots in France. I note them but don't express an opinion about the whys and wherefores, their business. Maybe I should express some hatred for Frances head of state, if I can find a reason. Or maybe become interested in the internal affairs of some South American or African country. How about I develope a hate for the Canadian PM. Pity I am more interested in our own country and its future.

HenryL.,

You seem to be missing the point entirely.

Our future is tied to that of the US - whether
you care to admit it or not. Ask your MP.
He/she - may be better able to clarify things for
you than I obviously can. In any case, there's
no further point in arguing with you. You're
convinced that you're right. And I think I
am. By the way - I lived and worked in the US
for over ten years and am very familiar with
the electoral system there.

Foxy yes true Henry L no doubt believes what he posts
In fact post one this thread I reminded posters we, yes me too loved America
It took much learning to change my blind trust
Even now as much as any other reason my intent/wish was for that country to again be the one that rebuilt Europe after ww2
But blind faith is well blind to truth
Rupert Murdock is very far from the only cashed up manipulator in American politics
Trump is a product of Americans who do not care that his policy on health education and migration, harm more than they help
For every action there is indeed a reaction
I dream hope and believe a better stronger caring America, very unlike the one Henry L wants, will come as a reaction to Trumps madness

I dream hope and believe a better stronger caring America, very unlike the one Henry L wants, will come as a reaction to Trumps madness
Belly,
And I dream of Australia eventually recovering from the ruinous policies of Whitlam, Keating & Rudd.

Quote Belly. "But blind faith is well blind to truth" A perfect description of your blind faith in Labor.

Belly, Foxy there is so much evidence that the current Labor party is the worst it has ever been in what it actually offers it's supporters, but that blind faith in something that no longer exists, if it ever did, keeps your support, & nothing can open your eyes.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/the-case-for-the-impeachment-of-donald-j-trump-20190107-p50pyu.html
INDY I blame Ben Chifely, he stood for fairness and that seems to be what irks you
Hasbeen,no original thought in that lot
But if it is the best you can do ok
However it will not be me, highlight that, my views will not matter
VOTERS are about to elect Labor
Reject this worn out old party/government

This day, every day, news about Trump is on the front page, what is he doing now
Remember the last right wing POTUS?
Ronald Reagan
*Pull down that wall* [the Berlin one]
Trump? well history will question him and his sanity

My link two posts ago should be read by every one in the world
If for no other reason than to prove voters disconnect with politics
Refusal to understand
Willingness to take lies as truth
Sees a man who could well destroy the worlds economy or start ww3 just because he has no real idea/wish how to govern

http://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/critics-lambast-under-siege-netanyahu-s-speech-attacking-witch-hunt-20190108-p50q5y.html
Well all threads die
And as this one has I wanted to post a link about another world leader
One under investigation, and very likely to be thrown out
Maybe even imprisoned
My point is? world leader under investigation for corrupt conduct
If only we never needed to read such headlines.
Is it asking too much? to want to see statesmen again

Belly do try to cut the lefty garbage a little.

No politician before has had so many shonks trying to find just one little thing that could blow up into something bad than one Donald Trump.

He must be the cleanest man on earth when with all the billions involved in the swamp politics, unable to create a single thing.

Create is the correct word, with all the garbage they have tried.

So for gods sake, give it a rest for a while, it is worse than boring it is ridiculous.

Hasbeen I am forced to wonder, must I not say what I think about your barbed manic posts
Am I being strong in letting you rant
Or weak for not getting right back in to you
YOU OFFEND ME!
No one who ever posted here is more anti true left than me
Socialism my youthful dream was a betrayal of every thing it promised to fix
LEFT bloke you can do better
My wish for a caring sharing world is not leftist it is in my view the nature of good men and women
YOU are in my view a victim of an idiot who has hood winked you
A clear and present danger to world trade peace ,that caring world
Put your mindless rants about who AND what I am in the mindless rant box

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/the-real-us-national-emergency-is-the-threat-of-trump-s-collapse-20190109-p50qad.html
Take the time to read it Hasbeen
Ask your self am I and much of the world deluded or is it you

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/in-address-trump-claims-illegal-immigration-is-humanitarian-crisis-20190109-p50qdi.html\
As said in the earler post and its link a very real danger exists here
As Trump pulls pure falsehoods out of his hat, ignores there have been less migrants/refugees than five years ago
The very real danger is his supporters will not like him failing to build the wall
sad foolish man

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/i-am-the-wall-rus-trump-s-neediness-exposed-on-prime-time-20190109-p50qey.html
Yes I know my links will not be popular
I even know they will not be read
But will continue to post them, they are the other side of the Trump is great story
And if we look, even the briefest glance, we will see he is not the problem
The problem, world wide
Is us, voters who buy people like him, appoint a clown and fraudster in the white house and expect good things to result

The fact that so many lefties are attacking Trump perhaps indicates that he is doing something right. War is a zero sum game.

CM can we agree in the matter of lefty one of us is wrong
I KNOW you are a bright person
But can you not see every one is left of Trump and the party he hijacked
Believe me your use of the term left to describe Trumps opponents is?
Hillbilly talk
As the links show mainstream America is no longer looking for good from Trump
He because he promised the rabble he would wants to build a wall, that in no way will stop criminals/terrorists/drugs coming in
This year the fool will fall reserve your escape route, you need to tell us why you always knew he would

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-10/donald-trump-facts-are-not-a-weapon/10703412
More lefty comment?
Or just maybe Trumps supporters are a clear and present danger to honest thought truth and clear headed thinking

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/the-ineffable-hulk-trump-is-always-one-temper-tantrum-from-disaster-20190110-p50qka.html
At least read them
Confront me, tell me it is more leftist deep state lies

Or you could face the truth, the horrible real truth Trump supporters have bought a pup, a walking talking mad lie,
He, powered by them, is a threat to our very real need to find ways to live together