Are straight A students even as smart as they think they are to begin with? How many really financial successful people actually did well in school?

The amount of hours university students are forced to put in every weak just makes me cringe.

Is Uni the be all and end all?

Thoughts?

Australia is 39th out of 41 in the education stakes of civilised countries. Enough said? Universities are just political re-education camps, money-making businesses, and providers of back-door entry for unneeded immigrants. Most of the degrees these “straight A” students achieve are totally useless in the job market. Straight A's would be fails in the real world.

esperence,
Throughout my blue collar working life I've had close contact with educated people. Mainly in the medical & engineering fields.
Like most ordinary young folk I too was under the impression that educated people were intelligent, smart & thoughtful & I actually met quite a number who fitted these categories.
Sadly, they were the minority. In general, the "educated" proved to be highly ignorant in general knowledge, anything pragmatic, showed a gross lack of understanding of anything managerial. But, worst of all was their lack of integrity & lack of care.
Their display of egotism & their lack of common sense has cost us taxpayers dearly in ruined opportunities & extreme waste of public funding. The majority aren't in any industry, they're cooped up in public service positions of absolutely no use to society. On the contrary, they sabotage good will & progress. Their indoctrinated illusion tells them they're people of value whereas in reality they're the catalyst for progressive regress. I know many basic education blue collar worker retirees whose intelligence & knowledge heavily outweighs the "educated" in just about every field. Their contributions were exploited & misused by those "educated" who infiltrated Politics & the public service. The last executive Officer I had to work under claimed to be an engineer yet everything he got involved with required sorting out at double the original cost & time. It was the public service that harboured the majority of incompetent & self-serving & still does.
To sum this up, education for education's sake is a step backwards. Education must be used to enhance ability & foster healthy mentality. The past several decades of this failed system of education has resulted in the exact opposite.

When I did my BSc in the late 50s it was not easy. No free or almost free university, & it was not easy to get even a teachers scholarship. To get an industry scholarship was damn hard. Only around 15% even went on to senior high school.

High school matriculation exams were hard, externally set & marked, & many failed. There were many examples of kids going back to do 5Th year again, despite passing, to get the better result to get into what they wanted to do.

Of course the fact that you spent an extra couple of years in school & 4 at university did not make you any smarter than you were before doing it, but in those days of pass or get kicked out, you did know at least a little more.

Having said that, it was a totally unqualified enthusiast who taught me how to build a racing engine. That stuff was not covered at Uni. Having won its class in every race it started for 20 months with the engine we built, when I ran into my favourite professor I started excitedly started telling him what we had done. After a couple of minutes he cut me off & told me that our ideas would never work. Perhaps he missed the bit that they already had.

You must remember individual, that a bit of paper from a university is required to get even a pen pushers job in the Public service, so they do help in gaining employment. Of course in these days when students are not allowed to fail, it is probably a good thing that the bureaucracy is there to sweep up the mass. Lets face it, MacDonald can only employ so many burger flippers.

esperence at a different level education is much needed
Understand what you are saying but in my work life I found many, far too many can not read or right
They are masters of hiding that until they learn to trust you
So while unsure if higher education is always worth while I know it is a must at the bottom end
A poll of bush workers found one in six could not read, hint, if some one tells you they left their glasses at home never push yours on to them, they probable can not read and only offer help if no one else is around

Yes Belly, it is often boys who have some groups who take pride in not doing school work, who end up there, & regretting it later.

In our large near city country high school our kids got lucky with the headmaster. He introduced courses, & modified others if practical subjects that appealed to these boys.

Welding & wood work got some, & animal husbandry got some others & the mechanical course kids needed to read workshop manuals. He had us buy textbooks for these which made them see the need to read, measure, & produce engineering drawings to progress in the causes. Many suddenly discovered a reason to be able to read.

He had all departments taking projects they needed to the practical workshop, & got these kids involved in school projects. It didn't work for all, but many were quite involved & proud of it.

Unfortunately much ho this diminished with a change of head & many staff over the years.

Hasbeen yes very true, you know my road working days left me with a poor view of engineers
In truth it was not the reason they failed, their job was man management , they had undoubted skills in their area
But little training in their real job
One however stood out as top draw in both areas
He backed me in starting a work place class, for those who could not read or write,
And kept the real nature of the whole thing from their workmates, a very important thing
Some who never learned to read or right are great workers extra skilled and often hide the truth with shear brilliance for decades

//Are straight A students even as smart as they think they are to begin with?//

Probably not.

But I reckon it's pretty safe to say that they are smarter than you think you are, due to the Dunning-Kruger effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

//How many really financial successful people actually did well in school?//

Financial success isn't a good metric for intelligence. By that logic, Paul Erdos was an idiot and Bill Gates is smarter than Paul Dirac was.

//The amount of hours university students are forced to put in every weak just makes me cringe.//

Yeah, they used to make me cringe as well. 30-ish isn't that many, and then you look at the people who don't have laboratory requirements and they do about half as much face-to-face as the science students, and no lab reports. Somehow it just never seemed fair. Chain the people studying Mickey-Mouse crap like business and commerce and arts to their desks for 8 hours a day, and let's see how popular those courses are then...

//Is Uni the be all and end all?//

No.

Financial success isn't a good metric for intelligence.
Toni Lavis,
So true ! Selfishness, egotism, greed & luck are most definitely not in the cache of intelligence.
Actually, I've been wondering all my life if it was possible for an honest, decent person to become rich.

//Actually, I've been wondering all my life if it was possible for an honest, decent person to become rich.//

I hope so. Although it should be noted that honesty and decency are not necessarily correlated with intelligence. A person can be bright and still be a massive dick.

What is rich? Is it only money, or is it having a fantastic life.

I have had a lucky knack of moving into an area I want to live, & buying some property just before the area became popular, & my property value had a lucky increase in value. It has made me reasonably comfortable. Well I was before I started helping the kids.

However I am much richer than most in life experience.

I have flown off aircraft carriers, & even managed to land on them.

I have raced cars successfully, up to & including Formula 1.

I have sailed 53,000 nautical miles around the Pacific islands in my yacht.

I have breed, trained & ridden show jumpers & eventers, at a very moderate, but still satisfying level.

I would much rather have had these experiences than be a multi millionaire, but been too busy making money to have the time to do such things.

I do know only one rich man I can admire. He had incredible enthusiasm for his business, & making it successful. The fact that he was making a lot of money was simply a by product. He is almost as lucky as me

I can relate to the thoughts expressed here.

I have known a few that struggled frustratingly with reading. Myself I've always loved reading - and encourage all listeners to a love of reading.

Educated by life and at university.

"It seems the flower is more important than the fruit in the contemporary world" (Musashi). Sometimes I do think as Hasbeen of "being there rather than just reading about it".

Education overrated in todays society? Well it depends on the education, the person, the purpose, the society... General skills and knowledge are important in Australian society- specialist skills are relevant in the correct context- but you can always do what you value in your own time and at your own expense.

Got to give it to the lads,as always the forums "Usual Suspects" malign the educated, as being according to them, "not too bright". The image they like to purvey is of some dill brain public servant who thinks he is a cut above the rest, a lazy, unscrupulous, self-serving numbskull who creates havoc wherever he goes. Fortunately there is a remedy for these academic charlatans, and its to be found in themselves and those like them, some kinds of rough diamonds, relatively uneducated, but street wise mister-fix-it types. Well fellas tradies have their place, and do perform a vital function in society, we could not do without them.

My advice to you fellas is if you should ever be in the unfortunate position of requiring open heart surgery, do not rely on some trumped up university educated boffin to do the job, just call the ever reliable 'Bill the Plumber' free quotes, reasonable rates, and he'll fix up any stuff ups by that silly university fool, providing its not darts night down at Bill's local.

p.s Also keep the phone number of your favourite undertaker handy, your next of kin might require it!

if you should ever be in the unfortunate position of requiring open heart surgery, do not rely on some trumped up university educated boffin to do the job,
Paul1405,
So far as being insipid is concerned you just jumped out of the fry pan into the fire with a drum of petrol under your arm.
I didn't believe you'd place a scholarly professional into the same category as those pseudo academic intellectuals who're stuck like a gramophone needle on their first multiple choice question success. With those inadequate qualifications we ended up with the tens of thousands of the dimwit, integrity-devoids that you so vehemently defend.
My advise to you in return is to not even attempt to align yourself with those invaluable professionals & I just hope you refrain in future from embarrassing those who became valuable members of our society.

Context is important. As Paul1405 has shown "the exception proves the rule". Some academics I have talked with are mortified at the contemporary "dogma" of University Faculties preventing "real inquiry". Very sad the state of universities. Serious people avoid them and seek enlightenment from alternative sources. There are a few bright souls still at universities- but the rot has settled in and it will take more than one of "Paul1405's Surgeons" to "cut it out".

//I didn't believe you'd place a scholarly professional into the same category as those pseudo academic intellectuals//

Just for the record, can we get a break-down of which qualifications qualify you as 'a scholarly professional' and which only qualify you to be a 'pseudo academic intellectual'?

Does BSc qualify one as a scholarly professional? What about a PhD in science? Or does it have to be the right sort of science, i.e. chemists and physicists qualify, but not those trained in the biological sciences?

I'd really like a straight answer on this one, rather than your usual question avoiding rhetoric. Although I won't hold my breath, as you obviously consider it a sign of weakness to give a straight answer to a straight question.

Paul1405

The problem with fields like Surgery is that every straight A wannabe student wants to get into it, despite having no passion whatsoever for it. Ever seen a prominent plastic surgeon's work in Hollywood? Not much to admire. The proof is in the pudding.

These straight A students are study-holics, and all they do is study, study, and seek tutoring support. There is no skill or passion in today's academia.

Tony Lavis

"30-ish isn't that many"... try double that for fields like Medicine and Law.

As for Bill Gates, he just happened to have a Dad who had all the right connections. Those who made a fortune after doing time at a prominent University are always in a better position to make use of their opportunities than those less fortunate.

I'd really like a straight answer on this one, rather than your usual question avoiding rhetoric.
toni lavis,
Question avoiding rhetoric ?
That's a bit rich from someone who doesn't even know the meaning of the term judging by your rhetoric.
Anyhow, to your first ever sensible question;
can we get a break-down of which qualifications qualify you as 'a scholarly professional' and which only qualify you to be a 'pseudo academic intellectual'?

The first are those who make useful & valuable contributions to society & get paid for their meaningful work.
The second are those whose only expertise is self-preservation by riding on the back of education wasted on them.

//"30-ish isn't that many"... try double that for fields like Medicine and Law.//

60 hours a week for Law?

XD

Clearly you haven't met many Law students... a bunch of slackers, except for those who combine it with a Science degree, and there are precious few of them.

You've definitely got no idea about university education it seems, despite being something you dearly support.

//You've definitely got no idea about university education it seems//

If you say so. Apparently you already know it all, so why bother listening to anybody else? Rather seems to defeat the point of a discussion to me, but what the hey.

I should point out that I'm biased... I have my fantasy tattoos on the dexter half, and my science tattoos on the sinister half, closer to the heart. And yes, I'm aware that scientifically, the heart is just an efficient pump and not the seat of emotion.

But still.... isn't Law just Arts with a silly hat on? I mean, they don't actually have to learn any more maths or anything, do they?

"But still.... isn't Law just Arts with a silly hat on? I mean, they don't actually have to learn any more maths or anything, do they?"

Other than the workload and standing, all Uni degrees are the same.

And I would trust a skilled technician more than a skilled engineer, despite them doing less math training.

//Other than the workload and standing, all Uni degrees are the same. //

'Workload' being the key term in that sentence.

//And I would trust a skilled technician more than a skilled engineer, despite them doing less math training.//

I'd hire the right man for the job. My father is a retired electrical engineer, and I'd trust him to wire up my house, despite not being an electrical tradesman, because he did it for the house I grew up in with no faults and no shocks and he still has all his wits. But I wouldn't trust him with the plumbing... and I wouldn't trust a plumber, even though they are probably the most skilled of all technicians, to design massive civil works. And I wouldn't trust a civil engineer, skilled as they may be, to do my wiring.

Right man for the right job... but let's not pretend that Law graduates are somehow better, or smarter, than any other Tom, Dick or Harry. I had a high enough UAI to study Law, but I'd already done Legal Studies at high school and it was really... f&^king.... boring. Lawyers are the people who don't find it really f%^king boring; there is no guarantee that they'll be especially clever. All you can guarantee is that they'll be trained in Law. Of course, if you find yourself in need of a lawyer, you'll be better served by a moron trained well in the Law than a genius who can only do Science!

I did Science! instead, because, well... Science! Jesus, isn't that reason enough alone?

//The first are those who make useful & valuable contributions to society & get paid for their meaningful work.//

OK, but that is a purely subjective definition. I think philosophers make useful & valuable contributions to society & get paid for their meaningful work. I'm guessing you don't, because.... actually, I don't know why. But I'm hazarding a guess that you just don't.

//The second are those whose only expertise is self-preservation by riding on the back of education wasted on them.//

Oh, right, we're on a firmer footing here. Business graduates. And PE teaching graduates. Because it actually does take three years for some people to figure out the difference 'twixt positive and negative integers (even decimal fractions of an integer... scary stuff, for some) and their relation to profitability. I mean, of all the Mickey-Mouse degrees out there.... Fine Arts students come up looking rosy compared to those time-wasting bludgers. And to paraphrase 'The Simpsons', a shaved ape could definitely teach PE.

Oh, and native English speakers who study English.... crikey, people, if you hav'nae figured it out how to speak your own language by the time you get to Uni, it's probably to late for you. A pox upon all English teachers and their time-wasting bollocks.

CM //Some academics I have talked with are mortified at the contemporary "dogma" of University Faculties preventing "real inquiry"//. How many, and in what context did the discussions take place? How did you determine they were mortified, and not just mildly upset. What was the opinion of those not part of the "some" you refer to. Do you do this often, soliciting the inner thoughts of academics?

Science! Jesus, isn't that reason enough alone?
Toni Lavis,
that's interesting ! So, you're a scientist ? What science-based useful contributions are down to you & who paid you ?
Please don't view that as sarcasm, I'm just wondering if you're in the private sector or Govt.

Is Education way overrated in today's society?

It's half-arsed.

The parts where they learn things that help them through life and become open minded is good.
The parts where they learn things that make them permanently retarded and close minded is bad.

To put a figure on the uselessness of some universities, a friend of ours has been running remedial math coursers for TAFE students in a number of subjects, particularly electrical & building trades.

Many of the kids have "very high achiever" in math A & B on their year 12 graduation certificates, but could not handle simple electrical equations.

He recently opened up a whole new line of business, running the same sort of courses for university students. Many science & engineering students actually need a reasonable level of math, & need a lot of help, however it was the environmental science students that amazed. Many of them would fail a serious year ten junior high school arithmetic test, & would not know where to start with a year 10 math B exam.

It is taking a year of 4 hours a week for some of them get to year 10 standard & to understand how to convert metres/second through a flow gauge to megalitre/hour. These people come out of uni with a BSc for gods sake.

Still he says he has never enjoyed teaching so much. Having kids who really want to learn is a new & great experience for him.

certainly in maths and science the bar has had to be lowered to bring the females into the quota system for medicine and other disciplines where males as a general rule do much better. Kinda like the army where the fitness bar is lowered for females to be promoted. The system overall has been dumbed down.

Is education way overrated in today's society?

Employers demand ever higher educational credentials
from their workers for several reasons. Firstly,
employers use formal qualifications to make their
task of screening and selecting job applicants easier.
And, when there is an oversupply of job candidates
with the necessary credentials, employers simply increase
the required qualifications. Also, employers share the
widespread belief that better-educated workers, are more
productive than those who are less educated. Yet
numerous studies have shown that there is little, or no
relationship between educational achievement and job
performance or productivity.

For example, good grades in a graduate school or
medicine or education are poor predictors of whether
someone will become a good doctor or teacher.

The fact is that the skills required to get an A grade in
a college or university course on anatomy or educational
philosophy are not the same as the skills needed to deal
with a medical emergency or an unruly junior high school
class. The universities, schools, colleges, teach very
little that is directly relevant to the world of work.

Most people pick up the necessary skills on the job, not in
the classroom and the characteristics that make for a
successful career (such as initiative, leadership,
drive, negotiating ability, willingness to take risks, and
persuasiveness) are not even taught in universities and
colleges.

It seems that the schools, colleges, and universities,
produce graduates with any number of educational
credentials but with few specifically job-related skills.

In fact, millions of people never put the specific content
of their college/university education to direct use in their
jobs, and more than half of the country's college/university
graduates actually work in fields they consider unrelated to
their major subjects.

Therefore on the whole, however, a higher credential means
higher earnings, simply because of the value the job market
places on it.

Runner you are probably a good bloke we could be mates in real life
But gee you have a set on females bloke
My Doctors are just great 4 of them in the practice, headed by a great woman Doctor
Yes me too gets out of control
Yes some women are not nice
But gee get the chip off your shoulder some men are every bit as bad

Hi Belly

my motto is the best person for the job.

Belly, runner is still sore about Eve feeding the apple to Adam. Is that correct runner. BTW what variety of apple was it? A Granny Smith.

Unfortunately the best person is often overlooked.
Or is put off from even applying.

Hi Paul,

What variety of apple was it?

I bet it was the Pink Lady!

Or is put off from even applying.
Foxy,
You got that right, because everyone nowadays is aware how much emphasis is placed on Uni education but none on competence or aptitude.
If an employer selects a competent applicant over a so-called "educated" one all hell breaks loose by the feigned indignation discrimination brigade i.e. Lefties.

'Belly, runner is still sore about Eve feeding the apple to Adam. Is that correct runner. BTW what variety of apple was it? A Granny Smith.'

come on Paul you act as if you are omniscience. Why would you need me to tell you?

Individual,

Your experience sounds rather limited and
to be honest - selective. You need to broaden
it, if possible of course.

runner I know nothing of these apple matters, you're certainly got me on that one. You are the all knowing when it comes to the biblical bs.

//If an employer selects a competent applicant over a so-called "educated" one all hell breaks loose by the feigned indignation discrimination brigade i.e. Lefties.//

Indy, can you tell us the last time the Lefties caused hell to break loose when an employer selected a "competent" applicant over a so-called "educated" one. Could that just be another figment of your imagination, it really doesn't happen does it, except in your minds eye.

Foxy & Paul1405,
You appear to have extremely short memories but I think you're just being selective.
Even Govt has a quota system for male/female representation & surely even you can see that gender is not a competence benchmark.
Were you two to go out & "broaden" your experience you'd find it a daily occurrence when people are chosen because of Uni degree rather than competence through experience.
Read the Govt gazette.

Indy, if what you claimed was true then the National party which obviously does not have female quotas with only two women from 22 members should be a team of brainiacs instead of the bunch of dill brains they obviously are.

BTW, I did ask, can you tell us the last time the Lefties caused hell to break loose when an employer selected a "competent" applicant over a so-called "educated" one.

Well? When was that.

Paul1405,
What part of read the Govt Gazette don't you understand ? Union action is another part of such discrimination.
Read job advertisements.

Individual,

You have not given us any proof whatsoever in
your claims. I have worked in both the government
and private sectors for many years both in this
country and overseas, and I have not
experienced what you're claiming as facts.
Perhaps your experiences are not as broad as mine
have been - but I definitely dispute your findings.
As for "union interference?" - that went out some
time ago - except perhaps in the imaginations
of people like yourself. I presume that you've
retired some time ago and can only speak about
what it was like - way back then ...
Times do change.

Foxy & Paul1405,
You wouldn't accept evidence no matter what because it would simply go against your preachings which, I believe are nothing like your beliefs. Were you to have what it takes to acknowledge reality you would not even think about my argument.
You Foxy of all people are actually a librarian who's job it is to selectively archive what's acceptable for whoever dictates to you.
Unlike blue collar workers, public servants are not restrained by integrity so, incidents such as the ones I allured to are not publicised & recorded. Proof is in being present where & when these incidents occur.
Many years ago when I spent time researching via archives I used to get what I requested. However, over the past 30 years Museums & State archives have become literally closed to non-academic researchers. "We don't have the info you're seeking" & that was that. A couple of years later I see it in references of articles written by members of this Inner Circle. the very same goes for FOI.
I, along with three others applied for a position for which we had more than ample experience but it was given to a very young person with experience at all in the work force because he was deemed "more qualified" due to Uni attendance.
Check Govt Gazettes & talk to people who were ignored because of less education.

Individual,

We can only speak from our own experiences.
I just happen to
know that mine are far broader than yours.
And I have never been told to be "selective"
in the information that I provide. On the
contrary - that would go against my personal
ethos. I am trained to not only look on
both sides of the coin - but around the edges
as well.

that would go against my personal ethos.
Foxy,
We all like to say that about ourselves, posting on OLO shows different.

Individual,

Do you even know what "ethos" means?

Do you even know what "ethos" means?
Foxy,
You looked that pretty quick !

Individual,

Do try to be coherent.

Now I see where Indy is coming from, he got knocked back for a job, and has been dirty ever since.

//I, along with three others applied for a position for which we had more than ample experience but it was given to a very young person with experience at all in the work force because he was deemed "more qualified" due to Uni attendance.//

Indy, they were probably looking for a trainee sanitary engineer, and you were too experienced, even if you did come with your own mop and bucket.

Isn't it just 100% proof that those with no argument always resort to ridicule. The undeniable fact is that Theory is given a higher priority than actual experience. As all decision makers in Authority nowadays are of academic education background all failures are due to academic background mentality. And, it is that realisation that the pseudo-intellectual (minimum academic achievement) crowd are desperately trying to conceal by bombarding society with jargon.
The real achievers are doing meaningful work.

Is education over-rated in today's society ? It depends whether the author meant

(a) that the education students are currently getting, in their visual arts and communication studies courses, is often little more than puffery and blather, teaching self-importance and entitlement more than knowledge and skills;

or

(b) that education is more vital than ever before in a rapidly-changing society, in order to keep up with the more advanced technologies etc. across the world.

I suspect that both are correct.

Joe

Indy, one thing I'll say is we actually overwork, working to produce or appearing to produce what is nothing more than unnecessary crap, materials and services. The wants and needs of society could be adequately met with less people working less hours, and for a lesser period of their life. Then there is the rub, what do you do with all the surplus folks with nothing to do, and how do you meet the wants and needs of those surplus members of society, without creating anarchy. The Romans had a solution for their 50% unemployed, it was beer and circuses, or sign you up for 25 years in the legions. I don't think we have those options. What we have done is create "necessary" requirements for society, and that involves a large chuck of society shifting piles of sand from A to B and back again, well not quite as simple as that, but that is what many "workers" are really doing. They do feel they are being productive and making a positive contribution to their well being, and the good of society, when in fact they could sit in a park all day and society would be none the worse off. Our Protestant ethos requires us all to be doing our bit, or at least appear to be doing our bit.
If there are three "workers" number one is skilled productive and produces every thing required for all three. What do you do with the other two, for number two you create a overseeing position to keep track of number one, number three, well you have them making rules and regulations and shuffling paperwork to number two so he can correctly supervise number one. All three see themselves as productive, and all three share in the pie.

I suspect that both are correct
Loudmouth,
You're your assertion can't be argued. In my opinion as an under-educated, I maintain that education for education's sake is pointless. We educate morons who can not change despite saturation education.
We educate smart people with useless information so they're being held back. There's too much focus on the prestige of education rather than the benefits.
Over-hyping education & under-valueing pragmatism is the core problem.
People with an academic title are placed onto pedestals & the hype surrounding them is what prevents them from falling off & get exposed for what their usefulness really is.
In my work I spent a lot of time with Engineers who were stumped when their designs failed & you get one guess who fixed the problem.

Individual- Generally I agree with you. But at least Engineers are more practical than some other qualification- I like the idea that with Maths you can't pretend that you get the answer. But like you've indicated designing something in CAD is very different to building, disassembling, maintaining it- engineers do more designing than building- certain specialist trades do the building. "Finite Point Analysis" and other techniques are necessary to get approapriate attributes such as strength to weight- to avoid over-engineering.

Canem Malum,
It goes without saying that Engineers are well educated, well above average. Where many engineers fall below average is in the field of listening to people who know. But again engineers are no Robinson Cruisoes' there either, 99% of bureaucrats (all academic background) occupy the top positions in arrogance & ignorance. I suspect this to be due to the fact that once they enter through the doors of universities they're indoctrinated with the belief that they're above common sense & pragmatism. Once they leave Uni they're incapable of filtering indoctrination from reality. As a friend once said to me "the mind is not like a rubbish bin that can be emptied".

In my life I grew up with an 'engineering', hands on, family/father.
He self taught, as a youngster built such things as a welder from the generator of a German tank, (at risk of being killed if caught).
He went on to design 'real' things, which were ultimately part of the development of the North West of WA, and more so the mining boom.
He went on to create a 150 or so work force, engineering business.
We three sons went on to make our own fortunes in what we did best.
Being the oldest, I had learned the most, from my father.
Later going to uni, I realised what I already knew would hold me in good stead in my chosen profession and business life.
My brother was a clear example of the points made here.
In meetings with govt engineers and other similar people, he was shunned because he did not have a degree.
Being a proud Italian, as if to spit in their faces, he went to UWA as a mature age student, he qualified, with distinction.
Once back home the same stuck-up arse-holes suddenly noticed him, he never used his engineering degree, because like myself, I/we would design something, and if we needed something analysed we would engage the services of the appropriate discipline of engineering for answers.
He created a business rivaling and exceeding our father's, again with approx 130 odd staff, servicing the mining and road transport industry, still today.
In my experience I hired and fired by putting their CV's aside and merely having a conversation, sometimes seeking particular info from their CV.
I did not hire on qualifications, quite the opposite.
In fact I can say with pride, that the 'best' worker I had was, this will shock you, was of mixed blood.
Abo/European.
He was by far the best I had ever hired, for all the right reasons.
So for all you narrow minded people who have me as a stereotype, I tell the truth.
Just ask and I will elaborate, then you too will be enlightened with the truth