Australia under the Whitlam Government adopted the policy of Multiculturalism; When they should have adopted the policy of Multiracial. A unifying social event rather than division.

Multiculturalism means diversity of opinion and laws which has led to the development of ghettos and separate enclaves of culture and law.

These enclaves are observable multiracial but are not assimilating into the established values and laws of a free Western society. The time has come that the assimilation is imposed on the host population and not on the immigrant. The social cohesion that makes a nation strong is being weakened by the social division. People who came here for a free society from the oppression of Shariah now find they are being faced with the rise of the same oppression they fled.

What must be done to regain the values that give us true human freedoms. With the rise of Western moral decadence gives the opportunity for a strong leader to arise enforcing draconian social laws. That is how history changes society.

Whitlam only started talking about multiculturalism; Malcolm Fraser signed and sealed the final dirty, undemocratic deed, as I clearly remember hearing one morning on radio. We already had a non-discriminatory 'multiracial’ immigration policy. The White Australia policy was effectively abolished in 1966.

There is no benefit to Australia in multiculturalism OR multiracialism. There is some benefit in immigration of skilled people, sometimes, as opposed to the current mass immigration of all and sundry.

The north west of Australia is a great example of multiracial but monocultural societies. It has worked because the number of newcomers was too small to influence local culture, thus forcing them to assimilate. The intermarrying of aboriginal, white, Asian, Islander and afghan people has produced a fascinating and beautiful group of people who live very similar lifestyles with some unique cuisine and great tolerance of the only different cultural group, which is the remote traditional aboriginals. And even they have adopted as many western practises as they need to improve their life styles.
The reason migration has been so successful in the past was the willingness of the new arrivals to assimilate into the local culture as quickly as possible, whilst still retaining a few small defining practises, like cuisine.
This probably worked because the migrants came from similar backgrounds as regards values and religion.
Western countries are now experiencing problems with migration because large numbers of a group with very different cultural beliefs are not only refusing to integrate but are trying to influence their environment to suit their own different value system.
It will not end well.

as usual Big Nana you are a voice of reason.

one down side to multiculturalism is the promotion of Australian haters like Yasmin and others who suck the tax payers dry and then poop on the nation. Others like the link below when the Australian of the Year finalist who as manger of Immigrant services stole over 700000 for her own puporses. One less for Labours quota of women and diversity I suppose.

ttps://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/icac-finds-eman-sharobeem-acted-corruptly-recommends-charges-20180919-p504n4.html

From a paper written for year 9 students.
www.skwirk.com/p-c_s-14_u-112_t-301_c-1014/history-of-multiculturalism-how-did-it-come-about-/nsw/history/changing-rights-and-freedoms-migrants/multiculturalism

//Al Grassby, the Immigration Minister in the Whitlam government that was elected in 1972, was open to these ideas, as was Prime Minister Gough Whitlam. In 1973 the government officially ended the White Australia policy by dropping all references to race in its immigration policy. Immigrants were now to be chosen on merit and eligibility for various categories rather than on the basis of race, colour or religion.

Activists for multiculturalism also lobbied opposition immigration spokesman Malcolm Fraser in the lead-up to the 1974 election. Fraser was sympathetic and pressured the Liberal Party to include these ideas in their own policies. The following year the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth), introduced by the Whitlam government, made it illegal for people to discriminate in an official capacity on the basis of race.

Throughout the next two decades multiculturalism became the subject of many groups, reports and activities. Prime Minister Bob Hawke set up an Office of Multicultural Affairs during the early 1980s to formulate multicultural policy. By this stage there were programmes in place that provided settlement services for migrants and funding for migrant lobby groups. There were also other initiatives such as multicultural radio stations. Around 20 per cent of Australia's population by that stage were people who had been born overseas.//

During those early years awareness of social division on culture and laws were not experienced.

Josephus, ttbn can't make the meeting on Saturday night, his bed sheet is in the wash, carry on without him.

//Multiculturalism means diversity of opinion and laws which has led to the development of ghettos and separate enclaves of culture and law.//

OK, so which municipalities don't operate under Australian law?

I'm, um, asking for a friend. And I definitely not because I want to set up my own casino or anything else which would be illegal under NSW/Federal law. No sirree.

//What must be done to regain the values that give us true human freedoms. With the rise of Western moral decadence gives the opportunity for a strong leader to arise enforcing draconian social laws.//

Oh for pete's sake.... Josephus, take off your black shirt and stick it where the sun shineth not. Nobody wants a bar of your fascist fantasies.

Toni, I do not have to do anything to change society, as there are two directions happening in our society.

One that currently incarcerates paedophiles under our laws, and one that approves of paedophiles under their laws. One that allows homosexuality under our laws and one that puts to death homosexuals under their laws. One that allows adultery and one that stones women found to have been in an adulteress relationship. One that allows inter faith marriage, and one that honour kills a woman of their faith who marries an unbeliever. One that allows freedom of expression on a religious discussion and one that puts to death one that criticizes their religion.

These events do not happen exclusively in countries where their draconian laws rule, but in countries where freedoms are granted under law. Their object is to destroy Western society because they see it a decadent, drunken and unclean.

Right, but you still haven't told me where it is, exactly, in Australia that our laws don't apply. Leaving out embassies; they're a special case. My, uh, friend is quite eager to find out. Just out of innocent curiosity, of course, nothing dodgy ;-)

This is what is proposed for the UK.

http://www.therebel.media/uk_six_years_in_prison_for_islamophobia_under_new_proposals

Leaders with strong views take over a country, examples Hitler, Mao etc.

//This is what is proposed for the UK.

http://www.therebel.media/uk_six_years_in_prison_for_islamophobia_under_new_proposals

Leaders with strong views take over a country, examples Hitler, Mao etc.//

Are you comparing Theresa May to Hitler and Mao? Bit hyberbolic, don't you think? I mean, I don't like the woman, she's a Tory.... but I really don't see the comparison between her and Hitler. She's not even as bad as Thatcher, to be honest.

Toni, you have twisted what I have written to mean,//you still haven't told me where it is, exactly, in Australia that our laws don't apply.//

I have not stated there are places where Australian law does not apply. However there are places in Australia where cultural laws supersede or Australian laws in their society. No mixed bathing, no dogs allowed, no alcohol, no leaving the faith, no intermarriage etc, etc. Honour killings do occur in Australia.

'Are you comparing Theresa May to Hitler and Mao'

save that for planned parenthood and its supporters. They rename a human being just like nazis did to Jews.

Honour killings do occur in Australia.
Josephus,
Well, at least our pollies are safe then.

Robert Russell writing in Quora has written about the benefits
of multiculturalism in Australia. I thought that it might be worth
reading some of the points he has raised. Because if we're going
to discuss multiracialism benefits we also need to discuss the
benefits of multiculturalism. He wrote:

"Looking and acting like a British colonial outpost
while claiming to be an independent nation is not
altogether a good look."

"The benefits of multiculturalism for
Australia is the recognition of a wider history
as well as a broader
range of skills and abilities. The opening up
opportunities, a calming, moderating
influence on the wider Australian population,
less fear of "us" and "them",
less pressure on new citizens
to "act like us." They can act like themselves if they want."

Russell pointed out there would be - "more engagement with our
region. Less isolationist, less tied to the darker past of
colonialism, less tarred with the same brush." He said, "We are
a new country, not a clone of the old one."

He stressed, "Increased diversity, arguably leading to
increased understanding and creativity. We can leverage a greater
range of possibilities and innovate from a wider base of people,
languages and skills."

"Increased differentiation from other nations, especially from
"the Mother Country," (which was a slight upon the real locals,
the Indigenous people, anyway). Our differentiation by
inclusion leads on to "Australia's top sales points."

"From a tourism perspective, for example. We wouldn't be a clone,
we would be a broader, wider and deeper and more interesting than that.
Making the country more attractive to migrants and more likely
to trade - and to trade with a deeper understanding with a
greater range of countries.
We would have an enhanced regional and wider
global engagement. We would be more obviously
integrated with the wider world, rather than preferring
to "play only with our friends.
We would have broadened our message."

"Staying "mono-cultural" would not be good economically or
socially and we'd have a hard time trying to pretend that we
are "British" these days anyway."

cont'd ...

yep Josephus and the abc feminist/marxist know the life styles they promote are as putried and Islamic extremist. That is why they are bed fellows at least for the time being. They both hate light and truth.

cont'd ...

"We have moved on and created something different.
Different can be better, especially if done well."

"Successive waves of incoming migrations have had
improving levels of acceptance and integration with
decreasing emphasis on forced "assimilation" of
a supposed ruling class mono-culture."

"What we see today is a modern Australia with all
its flaws, Yes - but a much different place from
the "British ethnic clone" it once pretended to be.
Isn't that enough? I can't imagine a modern Australia
that didn't reflect its regional location, its
multicultural immigration heritage as well as its
Indigenous culture, whilst acknowledging the British
colonial influence as well."

Russell writes that "It's a diverse, varied and
generally peaceful nation that has by and large
successfully differentiated itself from other nations
and part of that success is because of multiculturalism."

"We are a richer, more resilient and creative population.
If you want to test this assertion just imagine a
mono-culture especially an imported one with little or no
inbuilt adaptation of local conditions that can only have
a certain range of standard responses beyond which it has
to adapt and change."

"We have always been a mixture of influences from
Indigenous to Irish to Chinese. We are us.
So multiculturalism simply reflects our society."

"Multiculturalism is more than immigration alone and
more than simply immigration from many countries. It's
a principled acceptance and encouragement of incoming
cultures, allowing for an increasing diversity of
ongoing cultural influences to remain within a
population group."

And please don't attack me personally - instead argue
the points that Russell is making.

Foxy, My point is the diversity of race is an advantage to Australia, we all accept its benefits; however some cults are not compatable, like scientology, Nazi, Communism, Islam.

We have a free and workable democratic society, cults like the above want to control freedoms of the individual.

Foxy, Russell would not like the Japanese or Polish society, as they are not culturally diverse enough for him. Are they safe societies?

I have neighbours that are Indian, English, Sri Lankan, Russian, Chinese, Scottish and mixed races and we all get on well and have street parties twice a year at Christmas and Easter. There is one family that does not join in and they are Australian born Jehovah's Witness. We all share diverse culinary supplies and foods for the BBQ.

Dear Josephus,

We also live in a very diverse neighbourhood - made up
of many cultures from Italian, Sri-Lankan, Chinese,
Macedonian, Yugoslav, Lebanese, Egyption, and Lithuanian.
And a few English. We get on very well and help each
other as needed. We judge people not by their culture
but by their individual attitudes and behaviour. We
lived and worked in Los Angeles for close to ten years
and sometimes we went to black-area shopping centres. We
never had any problems - despite the reporting in the
media about those areas.

I can only speak from our own experiences. I take people
as I find them.

//However there are places in Australia where cultural laws supersede or Australian laws in their society.//

Yes, you keep saying. But you never, ever say specifically where. It's always just 'places in Australia'.

I think if you're going to make things up, you should either work out the details beforehand or be prepared to wing it when questioned on specifics. It would seem you have done neither. I'm not a great liar, but mate, you're not even trying.

//no dogs allowed//

No, we've been through this one before, remember Josephus?

Dementia is an awful disease....

You claimed a few weeks back that a local government area in western Sydney with a relatively high Muslim population - Bankstown, I think, or possibly Blacktown... something-town, at any rate - that had banned dogs. And it was up to me to do the research you weren't willing to do to demonstrate that not only did that council permit residents to keep dogs; they were also allowed walk them (leashed) on the streets and exercise them in unleashed dog parks.

In other words, you were lying through your teeth.

//no alcohol//

Actually, that one is true... there are a number of dry Aboriginal communities. Pretty sure that's not due to their high Muslim populations, although I know you subscribe to some strange conspiratorial belief about all blackfellas being secret Muslims.

//no leaving the faith//

No. No, there are definitely no towns anywhere in Australia where it's illegal to convert from one one faith to another. That's just another lie.

//no intermarriage//

Once again, there are no towns anywhere in Australia where you're banned from marriage on religious grounds. Honestly, I don't know why you bother making this stuff up.

//Honour killings do occur in Australia.//

So do plenty of other domestic homicides which you haven't decided to give a silly euphemism to because they're not committed by Muslims. Silly euphemisms or not, domestic homicides are still homicides, and homicide is a crime. There is no jurisdiction in Australia where being Muslim is considered a defence for homicide.

Just stop lying, mate. It's tiresome.

Josephus,
Australia is a multi-racial country, we are not multicultural even though the term is commonly used. We expect all to obey our laws and social standards.

The problem we have is that some laws are not enforced as they should be because of weak politicians. For example polygamy, underage forced marriage and FGM. Polygamy is further complicated by the fact that we do recognize some multiple marriages that took place in other countries. In the case of underage marriage and FGM we simply turn a blind eye and/or give token sentences when offences occur.

There have also been rapes by former husbands of their former wives who claim they are still married under Islamic law. Thus our law is held in contempt.

We have even seen child sexual offenders given token sentences or cases dismissed on cultural grounds. We are being let down by politicians and the judiciary.

The rise of the far right extremist according to Islam, Why?

http://www.facebook.com/thetommyrobinson/videos/1264663180336400/?t=1135

The dishonesty of Toni, who cannot accept Bankstown Council allotted parks especially for walking dogs; why? to keep them off the streets where Muslims live.

For those that continue to ask:

"Do you believe Australia should become
a multi-racial society or a multicultural society?"
I'll again quote from Robert Russell who wrote that:

"We have always been a mixture of different
influences from Indigenous to Irish to Chinese
and so on. We are us. So
multiculturalism simply reflects our society."

In other words a society of tremendous diversity.

The reality is -
In some schools we have 90 per cent of students
speaking a language other than English. We have people
in their own homes who speak different languages and
practice different cultures.

Yet, Australia is a happier land than most others.

Russell tells us that -

"We have moved on and created something different.
Different can be better, especially if done well."

"Multiculturalism is more than immigration alone and
more than simply immigration from many countries.
It's a principled acceptance and encouragement of
incoming cultures, allowing for an increasing
diversity of ongoing cultural influences to remain
within a population group."

"Successful waves of incoming migrations have improved
levels of acceptance and integration with decreasing
emphasis on forced "assimilation" of a supposed
ruling class mono-culture. What we see today as stated
earlier is a modern Australia with all its flaws - yes,
but a much different place from the "British ethnic
clone" it once pretended to be."

"The benefits of multiculturalism for Australia is a
recognition of a wider history, as well as a broader
range of skills and abilities, opening up opportunities, a
calming, moderating influence on the wider Aussie population.
Less fear of "us" and "them" less pressure on new citizens
to "act like us". They can act like themselves if they want."

Foxy, Have you listened to what I posted on what is happening in London on multiculturalism. Learn what is happening in Melbourne to silence free speech if you publicly criticize Islam; like Danny Nalliah, Milo and Lauren Southern. It is expensive, but we must be able to critique Islam.

Toni,
Listen to this Lakemba Imam.
http://www.facebook.com/theimamofpeace/videos/290368501693594/?t=13

Dear Josephus,

We are all entitled to criticise the actions of wrong
doers, fundamentalists and extremists and people who
break the laws should pay the full price for their
actions.

However criticising someone's religion
I would hesitate in doing. Simply because I would not
know enough about it. I don't know all that much about
my own religion let alone presume to know enough about
what other people believe and how they follow their religion.

Not everyone of any one faith follows and believes in the
same way. There are individual differences. They don't all
form one homogeneous group. There are cultural, and
linguistic differences after all. And tarring all people
with the one brush - is very narrow=-minded and limiting.

Yes, of course there are people who behave badly - but they
come from all sorts of beliefs, not just from Islam as you
seem to think.

Foxy, you prefer to be blind to reality with ignorant excuses. Be informed of your enemy.

Hi Foxy,

Spot on with the assessment of Robert Russell's, the title of this thread should read 'The benefits of monocultural over multicultural'. For some, they feel threatened by those cultures that are not in keeping with their own perceived values and traditions. Competition for jobs and housing etc drives many to become resentful of newcomers. That's nothing new in Australia, its been evident since the beginning of European colonization in 1788.

Dear Paul,

Robert Russell's post was well argued and I thought it
worthwhile presenting it here. He pointed out that
acting like a British colonial outpost while
claiming to be an independent nation was not altogether
a good look. And he is right - we are a new country, not
a clone of the old one. Staying "mono-cultural"
was not good economically or socially and in any case
we'd have a hard time trying to pretend that we are
"British" these days anyway.

We have moved on and created something different.
And that is something of which we can all be proud.
That should be enough.

As Russell stated - "I can't imagine a modern Australia
that didn't reflect its regional location, its
multicultural immigration heritage as well as its
Indigenous culture, whilst acknowledging the British
colonial influences as well.

Best of all worlds. That's us.

//The dishonesty of Toni, who cannot accept Bankstown Council allotted parks especially for walking dogs; why? to keep them off the streets where Muslims live.//

Josephus, you're allowed to walk your dog on any street within the Bankstown Council area. I rang them, and checked.

//Toni,
Listen to this Lakemba Imam.
http://www.facebook.com/theimamofpeace/videos/290368501693594/?t=13//

Yeah, just for the record... I don't click on any links which start with .facebook after the www bit.

I've been fooled by that mob before. Never again, Josephus.

why is it that only nations civilised by white people must be multicultural?

Every culture should have their own nation.

After a half dozen pages, we are starting to get around to what's behind the real thinking of the monoculturalists, its not culture as such, its Nationalism. They are not concerned that a bunch of Poms want to gather for a day down in the Southern Highlands south of Sydney, and watch 'Morris' dancing. What concerns the nationalists is the number of people claiming to be Muslim, about 2.5% of the population, and their disproportionate concentration in some suburban areas of Sydney and Melbourne, where they believe they present a danger to the normal existence of the majority. I agree there is evidence of radicalization among some Muslims in Australia, and radicalization is a danger, even when it only involves a small number of individuals, it has to be countered by the authorities at every turn. Having said that, I do not believe there is evidence, and none has been presented here, that all Muslims are radicalized by their religion. Just as there is no evidence that even the majority of Muslims, through a blinding adherence to Islam, want to totally subvert the "Australian way of life", and impose some kind of Islamic state upon the whole of the nation. If there was such evidence, then I would agree with a total ban on that religion, and punitive action against its adherents.
One thing of great comfort for me as an atheists is the fastest growing "religion" in Australia is, no religion at all, now over 30% of the population.

Atheists are the #1 loophole for Islam to gain ground. Why ? Anyone with a ¼oz of brain can figure that out.

Ooops ! that should read are the #1 loophole for Islam not to gain ground.

//Every culture should have their own nation.//

Great, where are we going to send the bogans? I vote for founding the new nation of Boganistan in what is currently known as The Little Sandy Desert', a long way away from me.

Although.... this is going to get complicated. For example, I'm sure we can all agree that religion is a very big part of culture: if two people don't share the same faith, how they can be said to share the same culture? So realistically, the only way to do what you're proposing fairly will be to start divvying up Australia along sectarian lines: a bit for the Catholics, and one for the Anglicans, another for the Jews, a bit very far away for the happy-clappers so we don't have to listen to their shite Christian rock, etc etc.

Now, I'm not sure how I'd feel about becoming a citizen of a new country. Who knows, it might not be that bad. But I can see some problems with this idea. Take defence, for example: once we get rid of Australia the ADF goes to; instead of one big, strong nation you wind up with a multitude of micro-nations that could be conquered by a pack of cub scouts and their terrier mascot. When viewed from that angle, your brilliant idea to give each culture their own nation sounds like a plan to give each culture their own nation, with that nation being 'China'. No thanks.

And then there's transport. Since all these little nations will be sitting on the land mass we call Australia, there are going to be a lot of shared land borders, and people will want to move about. I'd have to live in Pantheist Oz, but my parents would be in Catholic Oz and obviously I'd want to visit them. If I took a job with some religious outfit, I'd have to travel internationally just to go to work. Imagine the chaos that could ensure if all these different nations decide to use different rail gauges...

It seems to me that in order to deal with practical matters like these, our hypothetical new nations might have to set aside their differences, focus on their commonalities and band together as some sort of 'Federation' or 'Commonwealth'...

Wait, hang on a second.

'One thing of great comfort for me as an atheists is the fastest growing "religion" in Australia is, no religion at all,'

yep the suppressors of truth and dumming down of people is happening. Some god deniers are stupid enough to think God needs numbers. No wonder the god deniers hate Israel so much.

While we are tinkering around the edges, thinking that the political elites give a stuff what we think about race or culture, the globalist corporations, the UN and the EU, are busily working on removing borders and national sovereignty. The crap Left media (there's not much else these days) is supporting them, either directly or by not broadcasting what's going on. Most people simply don't know what is going on; they just believe what the media tells them, and feel qualified to rubbish people who do know what's going on.

Some god deniers are stupid enough to think God needs numbers. No wonder the god deniers hate Israel so much.
runner,
You're overlooking the loophole there. Whenever a Census is taken the majority is what gets the nod for whatever its agenda may be. So, If there are suddenly 51% of residents in Australia identifying as Muslim then Australia will be deemed a Muslim Country. We really need more than 51% atheists of decent character to keep the next looming dark Age at bay.

That Australia is multicultural is self-evidently true. More than two cultures exist in the bounds of the nation...QED. Equally it would be difficult to find more than a handful of nations on earth that aren't multicultural by that standard.

But being multicultural isn't the same as having multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism is government policy, not a natural occurrence of several cultures co-existing. It is a policy which says, effectively, that all cultures are of equal value. So people coming to Australia are encouraged to think of the culture of their new home as being no better than that of their old culture. Rather than being encouraged to learn, accept and integrate into the culture of their new home, they are instead encouraged to maintain and nurture their old culture.

IF all cultures are of equal value then clearly the dominant culture of the new home is no better than the culture of the old home. So why bother allowing oneself to be absorbed into the new culture.

Whatismore, those of the dominant culture are told that their culture is no better than any other. So, for example, a culture that (imperfectly) seeks equality for the sexes is no better than one that practices FGM. This causes the young and naive of the dominant culture to doubt the values of their fore-bearers and to see no value in their history. A society with no history is one with no future.

And thus the culture slowly withers. And with it the nation.

The vast majority of nations are multicultural. Very few have gone down the path of enacting a policy of multiculturalism and those that have are suffering the consequences of that feel-good but foolhardy policy.

/cont

/cont

We are told by people such as Foxy's human shield (Robert Russell) that multiculturalism comes with all sorts of benefits. But all of these claims are without evidence. There has never been a successful nation that has adopted policies like multiculturalism. We've had some societies were multiple cultures are tolerated but they've always had a single overriding dominant culture that binds the others to a national purpose.

Laughably we are told that we need multiculturalism to help us integrate into the community of nations in our region. Since that region is made up of nations that specifically reject multiculturalism, quite how our adopting the policy helps us fit in is unclear. But it sounds good...and that's all that matters.

The policy is doomed. It is and will fail. Either it will doom the nation and therefore itself, or a declining society will come to its senses.

____________________________________________________________

Toni wrote "//Every culture should have their own nation.// Great, where are we going to send the bogans?"

Bogan is clearly the lack of culture. Not quite anti-culture, more a-cultural.

So clearly they don't get a nation but the opposite of a nation..an un-nation.

Yep - the bogans get Canberra.

This could go on for years; but, neither multiculturalism nor multiracialism, of themselves, are of ANY use to Australia or any other country at all. It was a silly question in the first place. People in Australia, irrespective of race or culture, are needed to work, to breed, keep the peace,and obey the law. Nothing else matters.

Something else that has been overlooked: different races have different cultures anyway, so why bring this subject up in the first place!

Former Race Discrimination Commissioner Dr Tim
Soutphommasane speaking to the Sydney Institute
on Wednesday 9 March 2016 - explained why
multiculturalism was successful in Australia and
how Australia was different from other countries
in its approach. He explained that in many countries
immigration occurred without planning. But that wasn't
the case in Australia.

A well-ordered immigration program has ensured public
acceptance of cultural diversity. It has under-pinned the
cultural generosity of Australian society. There are
important differences between what Europeans have called
multiculturalism and what we in Australia have called
multiculturalism especially in the realm of policy.

The following link explains more fully:

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/news/speeches/success-australia-s-multiculturalism

Toni,

As a bogan, and a Westie (Bankston, Penrith), I find your comments most hurtful. Still, it's your right to express them.

As long as Australians adhere to more or less common beliefs of equality for men and women before the law, equal opportunities for all, equal democratic rights for all, and no special rights for anybody on the pretext of religion or tradition, I think Australia will be okay.

Certainly, there will be recurrent efforts to subvert those rights and values. But there are Australians from probably a couple of hundred countries and a plethora of religious adherences. Even Muslims are fragmented into Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Sufi and other allegiances. Africans, contrary to pig-ignorant believers, come from fifty different countries - and even within those from the same country of origin, may come from at least a dozen different language groups. Polynesians may come from a dozen different islands. Chinese may have historic allegiances to a dozen different regions and languages. Indians may speak any of the hundreds of languages of their homeland. Burmese ? Ditto. Not to mention the Yazidis, Mandeans, Uighurs, Copts, and a plethora of Filipino communities.

So one outstanding feature of our multicultural society is that it is incredibly varied. There isn't some sort of unseen multi-ethnic, yet united, foreign plot to take over Australia. On the contrary, like the Greeks and Italians and Poles of a couple of generations ago, there is every likelihood that the current dazzling mix will become Australian, inter-marrying, working side by side, mutually contributing to our ever-changing country.

All good.

Joe

Ah, the Joe we all love is back! ;-)

Yay!

Dearest Foxy,

Oh, don't tease me !

As a sort of indicator of what might well happen in, say, fifty years: long ago, I used to frequent the Dom Polski, the Polish House, here in Adelaide. I asked a Polish friend recently if it still held functions, dances, etc. He said that no, it had more or less fallen into disuse, and had been sold. But Poles could still meet at a cafe/restaurant just south of the city centre. So no more spirited performances of 'Sto Lat !' I suppose something similar has happened to the Hibernian and Caledonian Societies of the late nineteenth century.

Observing students of many ethnic backgrounds decanting from a local high school, it is heartening to see the easy mixing of girls and boys. The next inter-mixing generations of Australian children are going to be that much more healthy and beautiful than ever - what Darwin would call 'hybrid vigour' will prevail. I wish I was fifty, or even a hundred, years younger, but there you go.

Love,

Joe

Currently Muslims in Australia are asking for two public holidays for their two annual Eid celebrations.
A petition has been submitted to the Parliament of Australia asking for Eid Ul-Fitr and Eid Al Adha to be publicly recognised.

2.5% of the population wants the whole Nation to have a holiday to celebrate Islamic events. Is Paul and Toni are going to celebrate those Public holidays I wonder? No booze!

Dear Joe,

You're absolutely spot on.

The younger generations are a part of today's cultural mix.
The older generations are slowly disappearing.
The future belongs to the young.

Lithuanian House here in Melbourne is still functioning -
but now it's mainly made up of recent arrivals from
Lithuania. The locals don't frequent the place very often.
Only on special events and festivals. And even then - not
as it used to be. That's life.

Nice to have a good story about two people from a region usually maligned.

They are possibly middle eastern, any corrections to that are welcome.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6194061/A-Chinese-passport-30-000-mysterious-receipt-Train-ing-wallet.html

Two train employees have been rewarded for returning a wallet containing almost $30,000 cash to its rightful owner.

Fahd Elshorafa and Naresh Awal from Sydney Trains noticed an unattended bag at North Strathfield station on March 8, the Daily Telegraph reported.

The pair used their detective skills to track down the owner.

They were honoured for their efforts at the Sydney Trains customer service awards and received the 'beyond brilliant' award.

The mysterious bag contained a Chinese passport belonging to 34-year-old man and a receipt from an Auburn money exchange - which became key clues for their investigation.

The pair were 'anxious' about the discovery and decided to call the money exchange in a bid to alert the passenger about the loss.

'We were thinking the customer must be really distressed, so I was really trying to figure out how to get it back to them,' Mr Awal said.

The man was unaware he had lost his money but was thankful for the efforts of the Sydney Trains employees.

The man broke down at the station and continued to repeat 'thank you'.

Mr Awal said the man offered to give the pair a reward for their findings which they kindly denied.

'He tried to give us some money as a reward but we said, ''That's not what we need — we really needed to find you and we found you,'' ' he told the Daily Telegraph.

'I feel really satisfied. Still now I have that memory of his happy face, and that's what we are here for.'

Mr Elshorafa and Mr Awal were commended for their 'integrity' and 'honesty' by Transport Minister Andrew Constance.

The man had exchanged the money to fund tuition costs in Australia.

Great to have you back Joe. I see it in my own extended family, the younger generation still to some degree understand their ancestral roots and respect them, that is great. However the kids live busy lives and their day to day culture is a Worldly mix of 'Facebook', mobile phones and McDonald's, you know what I mean. Just as my old Greek neighbor clings to her traditions of another time and another place, her family are very much part of the Australian way of life, they are very much multicultural.

Nice benefits, any nice drawbacks of multiracial over multicultural ?

The two holidays Muslims in Australia want remembered Nationally as part of their culture represent the end of Muslim fasting Ramadan or Eid Ul-Fitr; the second is Eid Al Adha and represents sacrifice, remembering Abraham sacrificing his son.

I know several of the posters here find that story of child sacrifice disgusting, and I also find child sacrifice an abomination as taught by the Hebrew Scripture. That was the point when Abraham's conversion occurred from following the gods [Elohim] of his father Terah, to listening to the God of Life El-Shaddai [Hebrew text says Yahweh]; take a ram and sacrifice it. Again the ancient practise of slitting a sheep's throat to bleed it to death is not acceptable in our culture.

I grew up on a farm and had to behead fowls and bleed them, seen sheep, goats, pigs and vealers killed for meat. I never once thought this was a celebration or deserved a holiday. Being Christian the sacrifice system of animals has no longer any meaning, as that finished with Jesus death. Which we remember at Passover known generally from Roman times as Easter. His death ended the blood sacrifice system.

Should Australia now return to the old covenant of animal sacrifice; having been originally settled as Christian with no animal sacrifice?

individual, People from every nation bring with them their culinary flavours and family celebrations. However some belief and ideological practices are in conflict with our Australian way of life and freedoms. Do we accept a belief system that puts to death

blasphemers,
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiY-oeRw8_dAhXSMN4KHZMADqEQFjAGegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fstoryline%2Fparis-magazine-attack%2Fcharlie-hebdo-shooting-12-killed-muhammad-cartoons-magazine-paris-n281266&usg=AOvVaw1FVe7EUJqTyXSodk_nW6LL

homosexuals
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwibsv7Yw8_dAhWKZt4KHXhtD_kQFjAEegQIBhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fnews%2Fnation%2Fimams-line-up-to-condemn-homosexuality%2Fnews-story%2Fb1df7829507ae0a60875a5577bd21a43&usg=AOvVaw3anm1Y9Zj5WLh3GkrvBac6
and women found in adultery

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwipnv2bxM_dAhWLfd4KHep7C4AQFjANegQIAxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2009-09-15%2Fadulterers-face-death-by-stoning-in-indonesia%2F1429366&usg=AOvVaw2zY1WEMEP7-HRmm2MJYeZN

leaving the faith of Islam?
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjg4sbkxM_dAhXWQN4KHYxNBVgQFjAOegQIAxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldsun.com.au%2Fblogs%2Fandrew-bolt%2Faustralian-muslim-group-death-to-those-who-leave-islam%2Fnews-story%2F1c7bd7ae92533a4cb04bbfe6c4f97371&usg=AOvVaw1m5j-HbVM-fiw5unehlRRF

Do we accept this culture?

//I know several of the posters here find that story of child sacrifice disgusting, and I also find child sacrifice an abomination as taught by the Hebrew Scripture. That was the point when Abraham's conversion occurred from following the gods [Elohim] of his father Terah, to listening to the God of Life El-Shaddai [Hebrew text says Yahweh]; take a ram and sacrifice it. Again the ancient practise of slitting a sheep's throat to bleed it to death is not acceptable in our culture.//

Yes, there are also a number who find the story of the blood sacrifice of Jesus to be ethically questionable. But we all still enjoy the Easter long weekend, because we're not Christian and we're not celebrating some poor bugger being nailed to tree, we're just enjoying a public holiday without paying the slightest bit of attention to your religious claptrap.

Which is exactly what we'd be doing on any other religious holidays added to the calendar if we're not members of that religion. Pantheist Eid Al Adha isn't really any different from Pantheist Easter; presumably Jews, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists etc. don't give a rat's proverbial about the religious aspects of those particular holidays either.

//Should Australia now return to the old covenant of animal sacrifice; having been originally settled as Christian with no animal sacrifice?//

Mate, it's not even compulsory to drink beer on Australia day or toast the Queen on her birthday.... I hardly think they're going to make it compulsory to sacrifice anything on any public holiday. It'll just be a day off.

I suspect that all this religious carry-on is just a smokescreen, and the real reason you've got your nose so out of joint about this is because you just a killjoy. You're just bothered by the thought of people having a bit of fun, instead of being all cranky and miserable like all decent, civilised human beings.

"Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."
- H. L. Mencken

Multiracial, multicultural: it doesn't matter. Anyone coming to Australia not a white Caucasian will have a different culture from the host. There is even a difference between Anglo and European cultures. Homogeneousness is the way for all countries. Nothing else works. We wouldn't be talking about it otherwise. One people, one language, one culture. Breaking that rule has lobbed us into the mess we now have.

Yabber about Australia being a 'successful' multicultural country is bullsh-t. There is relative peace now only because the different cultures have little or nothing to do with each other. We are a nation of tribes. As different cultures increase and start carrying on like females, demanding quotas, the sh-t will hit the fan. It is happening oversees, but we are too stupid to learn.

No we're actually not to stupid to learn.
Australia's multicultural success has been predicted
on Australian society accepting immigration as a
nation-building project. In many countries immigration
occurred without planning. But that was not the case
here. A well-ordered immigration program has ensured
public acceptance of cultural diversity. It has
under-pinned the cultural generosity of Australian
society.

Therefore there are important differences between
what Europeans have called multiculturalism and what we
in Australia have called multiculturalism especially in
the realm of policy.

You can't really talk of integration when there is such a massive level of immigration. We need to take a step back as a nation revise our preferences and make a plan. There are always those within society that are in it for themselves- if these forces aren't controlled they suck the life out of it. The more powerful they are the bigger the impact. These people have hijacked the power structures. As Socrates said we have to participate in governance otherwise evil will take our place.

As Sitting Bull said we cannot eat money...

The land and the nation is owned by the culture. You can't sell it outside of your own culture. We need to become more self sufficient so that we can control the influence of a chaotic world- otherwise the chaos will come to destroy us.

We need to buy Australian otherwise Australians won't have jobs. We need to sell property only to other Australians otherwise our land will be owned by foreign interests. We need to control taxes so that government can't control us. We need to be able to provide our own survival needs, security needs- we need to police our own communities, we need to use and build organizations to satisfy our needs for acceptance, success and self actualization. This is Maslow's "Pyramid Of Needs"- we can't rely on the government to provide this. And if we do it gives them more power. We also need to create services within these community organizations for child / aged care so that we can support our communities

We need to change our world so that local people have more power to control their own lives. We need to take power back from the hegemonic that we have lost in the last one hundred years. We will need new principles of democracy to do this. We will need to control how much power each level of government is allowed to acquire. We will need to control the excesses of our own nature- such as birth rate, sexuality, greed, etc to ensure that we have a strong successful community. It will be difficult- our parents did it- hopefully we will be able to continue their legacy

CM,

People have been crying out for a population policy (plan) for years, but both parties keep ploughing on with mass immigration of just about anyone who wants to come here. It is predicted that, by 2030, thirty percent of the jobs we know today will have gone because of automation. Bringing people here at the current rate is lunacy, for that reason alone.

I agree that there should be no sales of land or business to foreigners, and we should be buying Australian-made goods. But the latter is getting harder, because Australian brands have gone overseas to low-wage workers. The owners and importers of these goods are still charging Australian prices, though. We lose all the way.

Given the lethargy of Australians, I don't see any change coming before it is too late.

I was reminded again the other day of the spectacular failures of our political class, in this instance the ongoing comedy if the NBN.

Singapore is number one in the world for internet speed, with 60.39 mpbs. Australia comes in 52nd in the world with 11.69 mpbs. These figures were as at September 18th this year. A total failure and waste of money by Labor and Liberal.

11.69 mpbs.
ttbn,
I'm with telstra on a prepaid wireless which started out several years ago as a real winner for me.
However, over time I am now in a situation where I have to restart the (sixth) modem literally evertime I don't type something or look something up on the net for 5 minutes. Then mid-mornings & late afternoons I'm lucky to get a signal at all. So, count yourself lucky with your 11.69mbs.
writing to Telstra is like trying to get a Greenie to see reality.

Indy,
//trying to get a Greenie to see reality.//

You are also living up a tree somewhere in North Queensland, are you not? Besides you are a disciple of big business, and they don't come much bigger than Telstra in your neck of the woods. The mantra is "What is good for big business is good for YOU!". Is that not what you believe? That is your reality.

To Ttbn- When you undermine the strength of the nation it's no surprise that it becomes weak and vulnerable. The NBN is perhaps a classic case of industry trying to suck so much out of incrementally upgrading the infrastructure that the country is decimated. Telecommunications and Logistics are critical for any business- we suffer in Australia from the rural expanse- maybe if we allowed the cities to develop a little faster than the rural areas we would have the money to help the rural areas too. It's a difficult problem. Telecoms suffer from the "last mile problem"- which is more pronounced in regional locations. There may be potential in regional point to point "Ronja" systems offering cheap high bandwidth capacity by free space optical transmission in clear weather at up to 3 kms from the base station. Large directional dishes (similar to those used in satellite communication) on remote properties offer the potential of better and faster radio band reception. Mass production and transport of large dishes to remote locations could have a big impact. Telstra never really had a reason to upgrade from a business perspective- but Singtel/ Optus are not our friends either- as soon as it's in their interest they will raise prices. At least Telstra is Australian owned. It was probably a mistake to privatize Telstra but the government could see the cost of required upgrades coming down the track and dreaded the political cost.

you are a disciple of big business,
Paul1405,
In which one of your dope induced dreams did you hear that ?

There is a lot of misunderstanding here. I am not any sort of expert
on the Koran, but I have read bits of it.
A believer ALWAYS places the Koran above local laws.
However he is permitted to obey local laws on sufference.
That means obey the Sharia law if you won't be caught.
From memory someone was convicted of honor killing. Can't remember details.

Every Friday an Australian law is beached in Lakemba.
The road is blocked by muslims praying in the street.
I doubt if anyone is game enough to drive up and blow the horn at them.
Certainly the police seem to be frightened.
An Imman was convicted of marrying an underage girl.

It is a slowly, slowly catchee monkey operation.
Do you think I could walk around Sydney with a sign "Decapitate muslims" ?

There is a saying by Lenin referring to the fellow travelers of
communism; "Useful Idiots". The muslims have adopted it to suit
many usual posters on here.

Bazz,
That's how they got into Europe-with patience ! When it comes to planning they're way, way ahead of the impatient westerners. They don't worry about the mess they'll create as long as they can say they've done their bit for superstition.

Bazz, you put forward a rather vague argument in an attempt to smear Australian Muslims. You take the isolated actions of a few, or even an individual, and try and extrapolate that to encompass the majority. You then go on to distort the actions of the few, after you have tared the whole with the same brush through association, to somehow say it gives them an unfair advantage over you. The sign around the neck is a good example, an individual puts a hate sign around his neck, the implication is all from that group have, or can, put hate signs around their necks with impunity. You and your group, on the other hand have no such freedom. The truth is like their hot head, you have the freedom to put a hate sign around your neck, why you would want to I don't know, but maybe you would like to, try it if it takes your fancy.
I find myself defending a group, who because of their religion are, in my opinion targeted unfairly, because of the detestable actions of a minority within their religion. Incidentally, another religion I do not agree with, or support.

Your reference to the "blocking of streets", is most likely the incident of a couple of years ago when 50,000 Muslims turned up at the Lakemba Mosque to celebrate the end of Ramadan, and authorities were not prepared for such large numbers. Is that the every Friday. BTW Christians do the same thing, Greek Orthodox, have streets blocked at Easter, not unreasonable, even if inconvenient for some like me.

Bazz, if you could produce some evidence that all, or even a substantial minority, of Australian Muslims were acting in a totally objectionable fashion, I would go along with you. But like all the other haters, you take isolated and individual examples and try and use them against the majority, which I see as unfair. I did like the Lenin reference to "useful idiots, it could also apply to those you try to persuaded with your superfluous arguments, you have Indy onside already.

But like all the other haters
Paul1405,
Aren't you one of the worst haters out there ?

Paul ignores the fact that it is the leaders and teachers in the Muslim community that are stating Islamic doctrine and behaving according to the Koran and Hadiths.

I had friends who were original teachers in New Muslim Schools in Sydney who when established were dismissed so that could teach the behaviour and attitudes of Islam. Much of the curriculum was changed to introduce Koranic teaching.

It is beyond comprehension that there are still people who don't see through the doctrine of Islam.

The only non-Muslims who are daft enough to defend Islam are the ones who know nothing about it. There is simply no excuse for Islam or its presence in Western countries. We are infested with it because politicians are among the most ignorant of the dreadful political organisation posing as religion. The stupid apologist won't get the message until they are enslaved by Islam or when they hear the sword whistling down towards back of their necks.

Paul, your comments are very much in the usual trend of those defending Islam.
Not unreasonable if you were defending other groups, religions, cults etc.
However we now have a political fascist movement that has a covering of religion to deal with.
We can only look at the way they have invaded and suppressed other
peoples over the last 1400 years with the same Jihad policy.
We can only look at the criminal activity in Europe and we can see that
there has been no change in the last 1400 years.
Your comment that it is only a minority that attack is true but the
same was said in Europe, but there is no way to tell who it will be
and the 2nd generation are more dangerous than their parents.
However they will be protected because they followed the commands of Allah.
Following your reasoning we would not be changing all the airbags in our cars.

A concern is that people with attitudes like yourself will oppose any
moves that we take to prevent the introduction of Islamaphobia laws.
These laws are basically Sharia Blasphemy laws without the death penalties.
They do not apply to comments on any other religion.
These laws are already in use in the UK and Canada.

Re the street in Lakemba, well it is quite a few years since I drove
along Punchbowl Road on a Friday but I could see it was blocked the last time.
Explanation for others, the mosque street runs off Punchbowl Rd.

The Islamic hierarchy has not made a secret of their intention to
takeover the western countries including all other countries.
Muhammad commanded his followers to conquer Rome, ie the unbelievers.
We have enough muslims locked up in the Super Mosque at Goulburn
already and we do not need more to be incarcerated there.
Can you explain why we should not take the lesson Europe is showing us ?

Bazz,

The following quote is hanging on the walls of the
Dementia wing of the nursing home where I volunteer
part time. It was put there by a staff member:

"Oh Allah
Please bless us with eyes that see the best in people
A heart that forgives the worst
A mind that forgets the bad
And a soul that never loses faith.
AMIN."

Ah Foxy, tell that to the victims, such as those in Bali.

Bazz,

I'm sure that the victims are not allowing
vile acts to define them or control their
lives. Their beliefs probably teach forgiveness
and love instead of revenge and pay-back.

Blessed are the ignorant !

Indy,

Then you must be a very blessed individual. ;-)

//However we now have a political fascist movement that has a covering of religion to deal with.
We can only look at the way they have invaded and suppressed other
peoples over the last 1400 years with the same Jihad policy.//

Yeah, for pretty much all of that last 1,400 years Christians have been merrily invading and suppressing other peoples left, right and centre. Crusades, colonisation, pogroms, religious wars aplenty... the Christians have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

The past is the past - we can shake our heads, lament the stupidity, and try to learn for the future... but we can't change it. So it isn't fair to blame modern day people for the misdeeds of their forebears.

//We can only look at the criminal activity in Europe and we can see that
there has been no change in the last 1400 years.//

No, there have been a lot of changes. For one thing, there is less violent criminal activity then there has been at pretty much any point in human history. Nobody ever believes me when I tell them this, because there is also much, much better communication than there has been at any point in human history. This abundance - some may say over-abundance - of communication creates the illusion that the world is a much more violent place than it used to be, but that isn't the case. Facts: so much more boring than stories.

//These laws are already in use in the UK and Canada.//

No, that's bollocks. There are definitely no laws of the sort you describe in the UK, just anti-discrimination laws not much different from our own. And from a quick search, they don't have them in Canada either. I suspect you've read a rant from some idiot who took issue with 'Motion 103' but hasn't understood the difference between a non-binding motion and a statute.

One is a law people have to obey, and the other is what happens if you eat too many prunes. Sorry, just my little joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_103

You are right to an extent about the UK.
They just do not call it an Islamaphobia act.
It has the same result as quite a few people have been charged and
convicted. There was one that was gaoled but several who were given
suspended sentences or good behaviour bonds or the UK equivalent.
In Canada the bill you referred to was, as I understand it, stalled.
However there are other acts that are used.
However in the UK police enforce the "hate" laws selectively.

The UK police have been under attack for their selective enforcement
especially with regard to the sex trafficking of thousands of under age girls.
The police even arrested one father trying to force open a door to rescue his daughter.

No one has answered my previous question;
"Why should we ignore what is now happening in Europe ?"

Some would have us believe there are only a minority of attackers.
Yes, true only hundreds, I just wonder if the thousands that have
been attacked wounded and killed would agree.

Bazz,

The Syrians, and many others in the region should be able to
better answer your questions - speaking
from first hand-experience.

Foxy,
This one's just for you.
Then let us know who's the more blessed one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWWpQiijOaw

Commentators are now saying that UK police actually police everything BUT crime. I believe that there are on average 9 people arrested per week for using non-PC language and 'offending' people.

Indy,

Unable to access your link.

It doesn't work.

Try again. ;-)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWWpQiijOaw

Foxy,
There it is again. You can also type in Austria says No to islamisation.

Indy,

Still unable to access.

cont'd ...

For some reason it keeps coming up with the
message - "This video is unavailable...
Sorry about that."

I was able to open the site.
Here is a Tinyurl for the site.

http://tinyurl.com/yctmpqru

I thought it might have been Facebook censorship, but it appears not.
Facebook has developed a reputation for applying censorship on certain
right of centre opinion.

Bazz, a nice professionally presented propaganda piece, contrasting the evils of one side, with the idyllic world of some kind of "Lebensraum" of the other. Sorry to be a party pooper but Europe fell for the same trap laid by extreme right wing politicians over 80 years ago. The target then was Jews and other minorities, today its Muslims. As much as you and them may hate the reference, but these people are nothing more than glorified Hitler's, and if given total power would show their true colors. Gone would be the joyful buxom blond haired beauties etc, only to be replaced with a far more disconsolate world of hate and division.

The difference between then and now is, in the 1930's the Jewish problem was an out and out lie, it didn't exist, today the migration of displaced Muslim people to Europe is a reality. How Europe, and ultimately the World, deals with the issues of refugees is the overriding question. Some believe the answer lies with the installation of extreme right wing politicians and their draconian solutions. I believe a more moderate approach has to be found if the World is going to fairly accommodate all, not just a privileged few.

Paul you are not informed on what is happening in Europe and the UK. England has of Feb 19, 2018 - an estimated 1750 mosques in the UK. There has been over 750 Muslims from England fighting for ISIS, all army trained and battle hardened and returning to England.

Over 1,400 girls raped in Rotherham and authorities ignored the fact and Police failed to act, see the news report on: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/#69bf7e23754a

Josephus,
It looks very much like Paul1405 is one of the supporters of Superstition & mayhem, what else could explain the defensive gist of his posts. To deny the images of present day Europe's orchestrated refugees is akin to the Holocaust deniers.

//You are right to an extent about the UK.
They just do not call it an Islamaphobia act.
It has the same result as quite a few people have been charged and
convicted.//

Well what do they call it then? What have these people you speak of been charged with that you consider so unjust?

I think if people are committing criminal behaviour they should be charged and (hopefully) convicted for it. If you bash Muslims, that's battery, you should be charged. If you're painting offensive slogans on mosque walls, that's vandalism, you should be charged. If you're dumping dead pigs on their doorsteps, that's a public health offence, you should be charged. And so forth.

If people are committing offences that have been on the statute books for many, many years and always previously been recognised as unambiguous criminal behaviour, I don't think they should receive a get out of jail free card if they claim a dislike of Muslims as their motive. I don't think that it sets a healthy precedent in a common law system.

//In Canada the bill you referred to was, as I understand it, stalled.//

Wrong on both counts.

It passed by a vote by 201-91. But it was never a Bill, it was a private member's motion, which is a "proposal moved by an MP to draw attention to an issue considered urgent or of public interest", and is not equivalent to a law.

And all of that information was contained within the page I linked to. Reading stuff... just as unfashionable as facts, apparently.

//However there are other acts that are used.//

Like in the UK, actions that would be considered crimes if committed against, say, Quebecois are also considered crimes when committed against Muslims. The law is a bugger like that; you have a look at any criminal law, they always talk about offences against 'the person' rather than dividing them into 'people Bazz approves of' and 'others'.

//However in the UK police enforce the "hate" laws selectively.//

Well then, I guess you should hop on the next plane to London, book yourself an appointment with the UK police's top brass, and tell them all that they're all useless idiots. Actually, forget London... you should do it in Northern Ireland. I'm sure they'll a be really impressed with some jumped-up little convict telling them how to do their jobs.

//I just wonder if the thousands that have
been attacked wounded and killed would agree.//

I wonder if the families of those killed by Irish terrorists blame all Irish people, or just the mongrels that did it. I wonder if the 1,000+ killed or injured in the Tokyo subway sarin gas attack would consider it wise for us to let so many Japanese people into our country. I wonder if all Spanish and French people are to blame for the terrorist organisation ETA, or just all the people from the Basque region.

Of course Toni, it is not Muslims that are committing crimes it is the British citizens. I thought so, that you are a Muslim supporter! Ignorant of the Koran and Hadiths and their model Mohamed.

Dear Josephus,

Do all people follow everything that's in their
Holy Books? Many as far as I know don't even know
what's in them - let alone practice what's written.
I wonder how many can even read or are literate?

You're not being logical.

How much do you know of the Bible?
It seems to me that you're not practising the teachings
of Christ.

Foxy, I am very well informed on the teachings of Christ, and know he warned of false prophets, that would claim to come from God. Jesus was no weak person he denounced injustice and crime committed in the name of an ideology.

I know you wish to welcome and accommodate Mohamed the antichrist, and give him a home near yours. In your opinion he was a model man. Just murdering Jews, Christians and infidels taking their girls and wives as sex slaves. You have got to be kidding!

Because you are for control of ideas and speech by the right; We are not allowed in your opinion to denounce the Ideology of Islam. If Muslims are attending Mosques they are being taught the teachings and behaviours of their prophet. They might not read their holy books but they are being taught by Imams.

In their opinion it is OK to murder non believers, take sex slaves of kafir to become their property.

//Of course Toni, it is not Muslims that are committing crimes it is the British citizens.//

They're not mutually exclusive you know.

And I don't where you get the idea that British people don't commit crimes. Ever heard of the Kray twins, dude? Or the serial killer and necrophiliac Dennis Nilsen? Or Jack the Ripper? Or Dick Turpin?

Bear in mind that this country was originally settled as British penal colony because they had so many convicts they didn't know where to keep them. A thoroughly criminal lot, your British.

//I thought so, that you are a Muslim supporter!//

No, I'm a pantheist. I consider all monotheistic faiths a bit daft, but that's neither here nor there. I just don't see how it can be the case that terrorists coming from one ethnic group automatically make all members of that ethnic group terrorists by association, but when they come from a different ethnic group it doesn't make all members of that ethnic group terrorists. It's inconsistent reasoning, and I'm afraid it doesn't make any sense to me.

//Ignorant of the Koran and Hadiths and their model Mohamed.//

Josephus lecturing people on ignorance... that's cute.

Josephus,

Your opinion of me is incorrect.

And if you do know of Christ's teachings
then you need to stop spreading the hatred
and false assumptions about other people.
Or else you will be judged harshly.

//I know you wish to welcome and accommodate Mohamed the antichrist, and give him a home near yours.//

Dude, he's been dead for quite a few centuries now. Are you feeling OK?

//We are not allowed in your opinion to denounce the Ideology of Islam//

Yes you are. You're allowed to criticise religion, that's fine.

//In their opinion it is OK to murder non believers, take sex slaves of kafir to become their property.//

Bollocks.

That claim really holds no water at all, Josephus. For a start, it's impossible for you to have knowledge that you claim because it's a mind-reading claim. You're not telepathic, mate, and if you think you are then seek help immediately.

And secondly, religious adherents aren't robots; they can and do think for themselves because they're people and they're not just programmed to blindly follow every last damn thing in their holy books to the letter. Christians don't do that; Jews don't; Buddhists don't.... I've never seen any evidence that Muslims do.

I'm not convinced that reading the Koran and then deciding that must be what Muslims believe is the best method for finding out what they actually believe. Seems to me that it's a far inferior method to just asking them what they believe... that's essentially what opinion polls involve, and I think it would probably be a more accurate and sophisticated way of gauging their beliefs.

And I've seen countless Muslims, time and time again, more than any person should reasonably have to, state loudly, publicly and unambiguously that they personally abhor violence and condemn it in the strongest possible terms. Here they are telling us in no uncertain terms what they believe... and you're trying to tell me you know what they believe better than they do because you've read a book, formed your conclusion and now refuse to consider any information that doesn't entirely confirm that conclusion. Pardon me for not being convinced.

I wonder if we would be having this discussion if their were no muslims in this country. Every people group has brought negative and positive things to this country. Many individual muslims have contributed however Islam has been a curse.

Foxy said: "And if you do know of Christ's teachings then you need to stop spreading the hatred and false assumptions about other people.
Or else you will be judged harshly."

I have two medical specialists I visit both honourable Muslims. However it appears you cannot differentiate between looking at Islamic doctrine and disagree with those that follow it religiously www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-27/colo-property-illegally-cleared-by-diwan-al-dawla/10169746

Are you one that would JUDGE these men as engaging in crime?

Josephus said something like this a few posts back;
In their opinion it is OK to murder non believers, take sex slaves of
kafir to become their property.

Re the taking of kafir women and girls as sex slaves, well it is too true.
Thirty five muslims were gaoled in the UK just last week for that crime.

There is no point in saying Oh the British commit such crimes, as this
is the standard attempting put down.
Foxy even brings up transportation. Really that is very weak Foxy you
can do better than that I am sure.

Thanks Bazz, I was tongue in cheek with Toni.

Here is a post by a Muslim Cleric stating it is OK for a father to have sex with his daughter if she is over 9 years. Example Mohamed!

http://www.vtamedia.com/2018/03/29/a-fathers-lust-for-his-daughter/
copy paste.

HI Josephus

the left are incapable of debating the dogmas they know are irrational. Facts alsways gets in the way of their stories.

OK Foxy, the nine year old age is because Muhammad consummated his
marriage to Alisha when she was nine, so marriage to this day is ok
if the girl is nine. Muhammad being the perfect man so therefore all
may do whatever he did. Likewise killing people who will not become
muslims, or they may live if they pay the jizayah tax and accept
second class citizenship status.

We often hear about how tolerant was the muslim occupation of Spain.
Well one Calif who was himself moderate appointed a jew to be the
governor of a province. However when the locals heard that they murdered
the jew as a kafir especially a jew can never have authority over a muslim.
This is the difficulty, even the moderates will not deny the Koran, ever !

Runner said;
I wonder if we would be having this discussion if there were no muslims
in this country.

Yes we will because we will have to be sorting out the muslims from
the rest in the flow of refugees from Europe.
The flow has already started. Mostly it is Jews who are leaving
France and Germany. The jews are mostly going to the US and Israel.
The Germans appear to be going to Czech and Poland.
Except for jews there are no figures for the rest.
A few comments about Swedes talking of leaving, but nothing more than that.
Some Swede made a comment that the Vikings have become pussies.
The muslims better not wake them up, hi !

Bazz, Josephus, individual and runner,

Is the solution to the problems of Europe, as defined by you, the installation of an extreme right wing Austrian dictator?
The fact is Foxy, Toni and myself have not condoned the criminal actions of the minority of Muslims. Far from supporting any criminal behavior, we favor the rule of law and justice for all, Muslims and Non-Muslims in a fair and democratic society. It concerns me greatly that there are people like you four who are willing to accept extremism as the cure all. You are willing to condemn all Muslims for the actions of the minority. Why?

People have to make up their own mind. But I tend to agree that Muslims do show their lack of respect for others- as do other groups- I've had a few incidents myself. Generally I try to avoid their "boldness". It would be interesting to look at what sort of people work at the immigration department to let certain people into Australia. There seems to be a bit of conflict between the Customs and the Immigration arms of the department.

When I've contacted the police regarding issues with immigrants they act similarly to the description in the British article (1400 raped by gangs of Pakistani appearance).

When people come to Australia it's going to be hard, there will be challenges to overcome in adapting to the new environment, but it's better than where they came from.

I guess men don't have to worry about being raped by Muslims because they are often anti-gay religious purists. Although murder could be a problem. Maybe the women will stop worrying about diversity when they can't walk down Australian streets. I guess that the problems haven't hit Neutral Bay or Toorak yet- so it's not a problem. When rape gangs start cruising Uni campuses we'll see the signs- but the politically correct media will probably cover it up.

When women finally wake up to the dystopia- hopefully it won't be too late.

There was an article about German UN Worker- Rebecca Sommer that was interesting- but has been discredited by some

Canem Malum
I think you got this one wrong if we go by what happened in the UK. "When rape gangs start cruising Uni campuses we'll see the signs"

Should read
When rape gangs start cruising primary schools and junior high schools we'll see the signs.

The fact is Foxy, Toni and myself have not condoned the criminal actions of the minority of Muslims.
Paul1405,
Correct me if this is wrong but isn't it the doctrine of Islam to make the whole world Muslim ?
Doesn't really quite sound like a minority kind of situation.
The rape gangs are simply criminal Muslims just like there are criminal Christians & criminal all other groups.

Indy, firstly I'll have to agree with Toni; I consider all monotheistic faiths a bit daft. Like Christianity, Islam is a monotheistic faith and that makes it a bit daft. I don't see the need to have an unseen being from somewhere out there in the cosmos running my life. Like the Christian zealots, the Muslim zealots probably want to convert the whole world to their way of thinking, I'm not in favor of that move by Muslims, Christians or any other group of religious nutters. I'll have to accept each to his own, and providing they don't inflict hurt on others they can carry on in their churches, temples and mosques as they wish.

It is the unwritten law of the Catholic Church, so as to keep the appearance that their male clergy are celibate, that those of the clergy who have sexual hangups should relieve them by buggering children. Should we be calling for all Catholics, and Christians in general, so none get away, be prosecuted for the vile acts of the minority? I think not, no more so than we should prosecute all Muslims for the vile acts of their minority. Josephus and runner probably don't agree with me on that, like the Muslims, they want to see all Christians locked up for the actions of the minority

Is the solution to the problems of Europe, as defined by you, the installation of an extreme right wing Austrian dictator?
Paul1405,
What would be your solution ?
I maintain that when fighting fire with water fails, you fight fire with fire.

Indy,

Nice to see you favor the installation of extreme far right politicians, now that is being a 'Useful Idiot'. Call it fighting fir with fire if you wish, experience tells us when the extreme come to power they are not simply satisfied with dealing with one "problem", but soon find it necessary to deal with a whole range of "problems". Naturally being extremists, they will find it necessary to use extreme methods when dealing with this range of "problems". It will be a case of Muslims today, you and I tomorrow, maybe not you. Me thinks you have been taken in by Bazz's propaganda video, and the situation in Austria. Good luck!

//Thirty five muslims were gaoled in the UK just last week for that crime.//

But how can that possibly be the case, Bazz, when you and Josephus have told so often that Muslims in the UK don't get arrested for their crimes because the UK recognises Sharia law?

Surely you don't mean to tell me that you guys were just talking a load of bollocks?

//There is no point in saying Oh the British commit such crimes, as this
is the standard attempting put down.//

Oh for Christ's sake snowflake, it wasn't intended as an insult towards the British. I'm actually quite fond of the British, particularly the Scots. Nevertheless, even the noble Scots have been known to commit the occasional minor misdemeanour here and there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawney_Bean

I'm not saying that every single citizen of the British Isles is a scofflaw; just pointing out that every last damn country on Earth has its criminal element and that the British are no exception.

And if you think that stating a fairly obvious fact like that constitutes an insult towards the British, I think you're being far too thin-skinned. I doubt any of the Brits I know would be offended by having somebody point that some Brits are wrong'uns; so I don't think you need to get offended on their behalf.

//In their opinion it is OK to murder non believers, take sex slaves of
kafir to become their property.//

Oh dear, now we seem to have two people that think they are telepathic. The delusion seems to be contagious. Let us hope that it doesn't develop from folie à deux to mass hysteria; I certainly don't want to get infected with that sort of craziness.

Paul, I will answer your question," It concerns me greatly that there are people like you four who are willing to accept extremism as the cure all. You are willing to condemn all Muslims for the actions of the minority. Why?"

I note you consider the extremists are us four who are concerned for our children's future by what is taught doctrine of Islam. Who teach as I have stated above, death to infidels, Christians and Jews, death to homosexuals, those that criticise Islam, women found to have committed adultery and deserters from Islam. It is prescribed women are just above unclean dogs so taking them as sex slaves is allowed.

Of course you do not consider these acts prescribed in Islam as extreme though supposedly authorised by Allah for all Muslims to adhere too.

British Police are arresting persons who critique Islam, penalty up to six years jail.
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/in-britain-police-arrest-twitter-and-facebook-users-if-they-make-anti-muslim-statements-2013-5?r=US&IR=T

British Police were ignoring sexual grooming and rape gangs;

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/#2dda209f754a

Toni is happy to ignore Muslims grooming and raping children but Catholic Priests must be imprisoned. Perhaps the Priests would fit better in Islam who believe in child grooming, and some Western Judges allow it as part of Muslim culture.

//Who teach as I have stated above, death to infidels, Christians and Jews, death to homosexuals, those that criticise Islam, women found to have committed adultery and deserters from Islam. It is prescribed women are just above unclean dogs so taking them as sex slaves is allowed.//

Yes, Josephus, and as has been pointed out to you countless times before... most Muslims don't believe that in any of that crap, in exactly the same way that Christians don't believe in stoning just because it's condoned in the Bible.

You can bang on about the Koran being full of bad stuff all you want... it doesn't make a single bit of difference, because unless you also believe that Christians adhere to all the nasty bits in their holy book - and I'm fairly certain you don't believe that - then your reasoning is inconsistent, which invalidates your conclusions.

//Of course you do not consider these acts prescribed in Islam as extreme//

No, they are extreme. And reprehensible.

//though supposedly authorised by Allah for all Muslims to adhere too.//

But this is where your argument always falls to the ground: not all Muslims do adhere to those beliefs.

You just keep repeating the claim that they do, even though we've all heard plenty of Muslims explicitly stating that that is not the case. It's a bit like having you try to tell me that all swans are white... whilst I'm taking photos of black swan. Makes you look a bit of goose.

Toni, It is apparent you cannot distinguish between persons in a group and a group ideology. Of course not all Muslims follow the same extreme ideology, that is their personal identity. However the prophet's words and actions define the ideology of Islam. Not every Muslim acts and follows the words of their prophet, but they admire those that do. Similarly with Christians.

Thank you Toni, "Of course you do not consider these acts prescribed in Islam as extreme"

"No, they are extreme. And reprehensible."

It saves me telling the dill myself. Toni I don't know how these blokes think.

It was good how Hitler tried to exterminate all Jews, because did you know, some Jews were murderers! What a ridiculous argument!

Josephus, wanting to protect your family is reasonable. Wanting to protect them by using extreme methods is extreme.

//Toni is happy to ignore Muslims grooming and raping children//

That's libel, Josephus. Pull your head in, you nasty little troll, or I may have to have words with the moderator.

//British Police are arresting persons who critique Islam//

That story is from five years ago, dude. And they were arrested for incitement. I'm in favour of anti-incitement laws; inciting violence is not reasonable expression of free speech, it's shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre. If it should be illegal for Muslims wear shirts that say 'Behead all those who insult the Prophet.' - which it should - then it must also be illegal for non-Muslims to incite violence against Muslims on social media.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/nsw-cabinet-must-make-inciting-violence-a-crime/news-story/02c12d8d608f3870eb95c463b01761a7

The discussion between Josephus and Toni Lavis as I've been able to follow...

Step 1- Josephus gave links indicating that the book that Muslims follow is immoral.

Step 2- Toni Lavis admitted that the referred to items in the book are immoral.

Step 3- Josephus gave links indicating that gang rape has been occurring on the basis of the beliefs in the Muslim book.

Step 4- Toni Lavis indicated that these items of the book are not held as true by all Muslims.

Step 5- Josephus indicated that Toni Lavis may be in denial that nothing specific should be done about addressing these issues- perhaps because of Muslim sensitivities and political correctness.

Step 6- Toni Lavis advises Josephus to cease and desist on the basis of libel.

I'm not sure what conclusion a court would come to in the current pathological environment.

Some may jump to the conclusion that Christian's could also be subjected to the same analyses- but 1. Britain is traditionally a Christian country not a Muslim country- and 2. there hasn't been a link drawn between modern activities relating to extreme behavior such as gang rape or violence in the UK that relate to the Bible.

In order to solve serious issues we have to be able to discuss them in a robust way- otherwise we sew the wrong thread into the weave of our society. It takes courage to have our views challenged- if gang rape of this magnitude is occurring- clearly this is a serious problem that need serious people and serious and sometimes difficult solutions. If we turn a blind eye to the distal causes then "we are responsible".

Those with a socially progressive bent from experience don't seem to be able to make the quantum leap and accept that something needs to be done despite these actions move against their ideology.

This indicates that for these people the ideology is more important than solving the issue- when the issue is massive gang rape it is very concerning.

If the ideologists attacked the credibility of the article I could give them the benefit of the doubt- but the argument didn't proceed in this form.

The fundamental problem with Progressives is that their rhetoric is merely progressive jargon whilst the results of their idealism are progressively regressing society.

Toni said: "That story is from five years ago," You obviously only opened one link that happened to be five years ago. However there are several journalists facing prison for critiquing Islam and I am following their Court case.

//Step 1... Step 4//

Doing OK so far...

//Step 5- Josephus indicated that Toni Lavis may be in denial that nothing specific should be done about addressing these issues- perhaps because of Muslim sensitivities and political correctness.

Step 6- Toni Lavis advises Josephus to cease and desist on the basis of libel.//

Sorry, no, you've got step five wrong. Let me remind you what Josephus said:

//Toni is happy to ignore Muslims grooming and raping children//

I'm not. Since you're such a brilliant forum detective, why don't you tell me where it is that I've said I'm okay with pedophilia? I've never said that; I never would say that; I can't f^&king stand rock spiders, to the point that it's gotten me in trouble with Graham before, so always have to been mindful to curb my language, at the risk of not adequately expressing how much I would like to single-handedly strangle every last damn pedo on Earth.

And then along comes Josephus, who I don't think is quite the full quid - and he thinks it would be... well, I don't know. Funny? Clever? A sound argument? I'm not sure. Maybe he's just a bit frustrated that I'm pointing out the gaping holes in his arguments. But for whatever reason, he thinks it would be simply smashing idea to accuse me of condoning pedophilia.

Now, there are two... no, three things wrong with that line of argument.
1) It's a damn lie.
2) It's not just personally offensive, it's calculated to damage my reputation. Put those two together, that makes it libellous (look it up). But more importanly
3) It's just a really childish and cheap form of ad hominem. You whine about people using the reductio ad Hitlerum as an argumentative tactic; what Josephus has just tried to pull is the reductio ad pedophilium. About as base a form of rhetoric as it gets.

//1. Britain is traditionally a Christian country not a Muslim country//

What? No, it's traditionally a pagan country. The Christians came as unwelcome invaders.

//"That story is from five years ago," You obviously only opened one link that happened to be five years ago.//

Well... yes. The one that you provided, Josephus.

//British Police are arresting persons who critique Islam, penalty up to six years jail.
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/in-britain-police-arrest-twitter-and-facebook-users-if-they-make-anti-muslim-statements-2013-5?r=US&IR=T//

Do you remember, Josephus? You posted the link this morning. Notice how just beneath the headline, it has the date and time the article was posted? And that date is 27/5/2013. It's 2018 now, remember Josephus? And what's 18 minus 13? Yes, very good, it's 5 years.

Lights are on, but the occupants have long since vacated the premises... I'd almost feel sorry for him if he weren't so rude and obnoxious.

//However there are several journalists facing prison for critiquing Islam//

Of course there are, Josephus... and it seems to me that even if there weren't, it'd have been necessary for you to invent them.

Could it be within the realm of possibility that one of our regular posters is a lawyer trying to drum up some business by baiting unwary & genuinely concerned posters by exploiting the loopholes of everyday English ?

Indy,

Not sure about lawyers, but if you're talking about
the realms of possibility and this forum - I'm
sure that there probably are quite a few who think
they are - "men
of the cloth" who post here.

Don't think so Indy, as far I can tell Josephus and runner are a pair of fundo happy clappers gone wrong. This forum is most enlightening, I have discovered you are a big fan of right wing Austrian dictators.

"The far-right Austrian Freedom Party was founded by former members of the Nazi party after the second world war." This is the political party you and the other three are cheering on as the shining light to "control" Muslims in Austria! You gotta be kidding!

You gotta be kidding!
Paul1405,
So, you don't believe in preventing those who openly aspire to your demise to succeed ?
How would youd address a situation like that ?

Indy, I wouldn't join some sudo Nazi party, and boycott Muslim owned Kebab shops. that's for sure. These extreme right wing fanatics you are so fond of, invite trouble.

These extreme right wing fanatics
Paul1405,
You wouldn't say that if those right wing fanatics suddenly stopped being resourceful citizens & stopped handing you a share of their rewards & treated you like those you don't seem to care how they're treated..

The Useful Idiots are out in full flight.

//The Useful Idiots are out in full flight.//

You're not kidding, Bazz. Although why anybody would be dumb enough to play into the terrorists hands by spreading fear & loathing, which is the underlying strategy behind terrorist tactics, is completely beyond me.

That's correct Toni, the terrorist want the non-involved moderate Muslims prosecuted by hard line right wing governments in western countries. It brings the otherwise disinterested into play.

Based on your belief that "all Muslims are terrorist", or at least potential terrorist, I would ask; what actions, beyond the present measures being taken, do the 'Gang of Four' on the Forum believe necessary to curtail extremism among Australia's 600,000 Muslims. That's a fair question fellas, you must have some ideas in mind.

One fact that so many just don't get is that you don't need to be aterrorist if you are a Muslim in order to conquer. Ghaddafi et al openly confirmed that over the years.
All they need is numbers & as soon as the numbers are adequate elections will be a one-way street.
Do-gooders either don't understand that or for some queer reason refuse to accept this strategy. A million good muslims will always vote in support for a Muslim Govt which then will permit the fanatics to do their dreadful deeds.
All that matters to them is for the West to go under the yoke of medievil superstition.
Europe is just about at the half-way mark. Australia's Left is blind to that.

Indy, you have not answered the question. What punitive action, if any, do you want our government to take against Australia's 600,000 Muslims?
I could make a few suggestions;

1. They could all be forced to ware a red crescent for easy identification.
2. Ban Muslims form the public service, such as teaching positions, the police force and the defense units.
3. Encourage real Australians to avoid Muslim owned businesses.
4. Hold public burning of the Muslim religious books etc. Just to show them who is boss.
5. Ban public worship and practice of Islam.

If you don't feel these measures go far enough, there are more draconian actions that can be taken, I look forward to your suggestions. They are all in the political handbook of the politicians you so admire. Its just a pity that we didn't have ex~Nazi's in Australia to form a political party like the one in Austria. Well, we'll just have to do with the Lovely Pauline and Corny Banana.

Indy, you have not answered the question. What punitive action, if any, do you want our government to take against Australia's 600,000 Muslims?

Paul1405,
Sorry, I didn't realise you'd asked me this question. Why do you suggest punitive action ? Why punish people for something out of their control ? Why put innocent people into a very difficult & even dangerous situation because they're forced to play their part as instructed by higher up authority who has the ulterior motive, not the people it sends.
Your suggestions are nothing short of plain, stupid hate mongering. You just put your insipid & wharped mentality on display for all to see.

My suggestion of dealing with the situation is to fully explain to Muslim Immigrants that they're making the decison to start a new life in a Nation that is not islamic & therefore should sign a statement accepting the conditions & culture. Any involvement of political religious destabilising would result in deportation to their country of birth.
This could of course only be done if religion was made irrelevant on the Census forms.
Migrants who would actually be interested in leaving their religion should be given every opportunity & protection to do so.

In answer to Paul1405- There are things we can and should do but I'm sure that whatever the Australian people do Paul1405 will compare them to Hitler.

The Australian political parties have given them a franchise in our home without our consultation or approval. Many of us want to take this franchise away as is our right. A government that is not of the people by the people for the people is a dictatorship and a tyranny and it's the right and duty of the people within such a tyranny to throw it off if necessary by force.

This is interesting...

The Anti-Comintern Pact was an anti-Communist pact
Anti-Comintern Pact concluded between Germany and Japan (later to be
joined by other, ... , governments) on November 25, 1936, and was directed against the Communist International.
... recognizing that the aim of the Communist International, known as the Comintern, is to disintegrate and subdue existing States by all the means at its command; convinced that the toleration of interference by the Communist International in the internal affairs of the nations not only endangers their internal peace and social wellbeing, but is also a menace to the peace of the world desirous of co-operating in the defense against Communist subversive activities

//A government that is not of the people by the people for the people is a dictatorship and a tyranny and it's the right and duty of the people within such a tyranny to throw it off if necessary by force.//

OK, when we get a government that refuse to relinquish office after they've been voted out I'll join your militia. Until then, I think that voting remains a preferable method for removing people from office than lining them up against a wall and shooting them. That sounds like violent extremism to me, and decidedly Bolshie. Aren't we supposed to be against that sort of thing?

//There are things we can and should do//

Such as...?

CM, I was not the one that invoked the "Hitler" argument into this debate. Bazz introduced a propaganda 'Youtube', a rather professional one I must say, produced by of all people the Freedom party from far off Austria. It seems this right wing anti Muslim party has gained some traction in Austria. A quick Google and it shows the Austrian Freedom party was formed after WWII by ex-Nazi's. Indy was all in favor of this party, and I assume Bazz and a couple of others as well, and its methods for dealing with Muslims. I'm not familiour enough with the Austrian Freedom party to know exactly how far right they are, or to what extent they would go to control Muslims. But given their origins they could be extremely dangerous. BTW the misrepresentation is by those that claim anyone who is opposed to the curtailment of civil liberties of some Australian's much be pro Islam. Do you believe Toni, Foxy and myself are pro Islam, and the minority of extremist within?

Indy //should sign a statement accepting the conditions & culture// that's it, a rather mediocre, and unnecessary response when we have in place already, laws to deal with those that would transgress. More than one person has been prosecuted and jailed for transgressing Australian law in this regard. Is that not enough for you?

//therefore should sign a statement accepting the conditions & culture.//

They do that verbally, individual. Haven't you ever attended a citizenship ceremony?

http://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/citi/pathways-processes/citi/australian-citizenship-pledge

They do that verbally, individual. Haven't you ever attended a citizenship ceremony?
Toni Lavis,
Is it working ? If it is then wht do we have the conflicts ?
Paul1405,
same for you.
All nice words but these words won't help you were you to venture into an enclave. Do these words prevent competition out-breeding ? These words didn't work in Europe.

//Is it working ? If it is then wht do we have the conflicts ?//

Eh?

First you demand that they make a promise like this:

"I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
whose democratic beliefs I share,
whose rights and liberties I respect, and
whose laws I will uphold and obey."

And then when it's pointed out to you that that's exactly what they do, you suddenly decide that's not good enough and shift the goalposts? Why don't you take a little while to decide what you really want, and get back to us?

Indy, you seem to be rather confused. It was your //suggestion of dealing with the situation is to fully explain to Muslim Immigrants that they're making the decison to start a new life in a Nation that is not islamic & therefore should sign a statement accepting the conditions & culture. Any involvement of political religious destabilising would result in deportation to their country of birth.//
Muslims only, can Hindu's be involved in political religious destabilising without the threat of deportation to their country of birth?
Then you didn't think it was such a good idea; //All nice words but these words won't help you were you to venture into an enclave. Do these words prevent competition out-breeding ? These words didn't work in Europe.//
All this requires the installation of your favored right wing lunatic political party? This is your fighting fire with fire! If you can unscramble your brain, as the lovely Pauline would say; "please explain!"

Toni & Paul,
You're both either very silly or very corrupt ! You appear to be sitting on a fence that has hypocrisy on one side & hypocrisy on the other.

//You're both either very silly or very corrupt ! You appear to be sitting on a fence that has hypocrisy on one side & hypocrisy on the other.//

No arguments, just abuse?

Well gosh, I'm completely convinced now. [sarcasm]

Indy, I hope I can speak for Toni and myself on this.
Firstly, we have no track with the Islamic religion. We are not adherents, members, practitioners, etc, in fact we think its ridiculous to some extent.
So its not an argument about the virtues of Islam. What I believe we object to, and correct me if I am wrong Toni, is the persecution and victimization of people who have done absolutely nothing wrong, and that could very easily include us, not just Muslims. For us that is the vast majority of Muslims. I think we would take the same attitude if you were proposing the wholesale prosecution of all ice cream sellers, because a couple of their number, had done something terrible against society, ever though we may not like ice cream.
Just to add, we have nothing but contempt for those who would perpetrate vile terrorists acts against innocent people. We expect governments to take the strongest action possible to bring such people to justice. In general I believe moderate western democracies, like Australia, have tried to do that, and in what is a war on terror have be reasonably successful. Of course not all battles are won, but hopefully we will win the war, without destroying the freedoms and liberties of millions of innocent people in doing so.

Paul, you are misrepresenting what we are objecting to in Islam; it is not the moral people who call themselves Muslims, what we are objecting to is the religion, texts and practises of Islam and their prophet and what is practised by devout adherents to the religion.

Do you think devout Muslims respect our laws? when their books and Imams encourage adherents to the supposed words of Allah; teachings that promote death to cleanse the Earth of corrupt religion, behaviour or unbelief. Read the Koran!

Unlike Christianity it is not the teachings or the practise of living like Christ that is objectionable, it is those people who call themselves Christian but behave badly.

Well, as far as I'm concerned treason is no option !

Josephus, the best counter to the superstitions and mumbo jumbo of religions, is education, which in turn brings economic independence and prosperity. Freedom of expression is a given, just as is democratic freedom and civil liberties, basic rights that religions deny. Organised religion is always strongest where people are the poorest and oppressed, and that includes Christianity.

Indy "please explain". the // treason is no option//. Who is being treasonous?

Indy "please explain". the // treason is no option//. Who is being treasonous?
Paul1405,
Explaining to you is literally a waste of time. Btw, one part of treason is when you go against the nation that feeds you.

Indy, what a laugh, anyone who doesn't support your distorted self centered colonial opinions is labeled treasonous. Wake up Sunshine and look around you, you might actually learn what Australia is all about. It my friend is not the nonsense you espouse, that thinking from a bygone era, but a modern, accommodating and accepting Australia. MUSLIM PEOPLE INCLUDED!

You can do it, if you try!

MUSLIM PEOPLE INCLUDED!

You can do it, if you try!

Paul1405,
I'm closer to Muslims than you care to know. Stop twisting the words, I didn't allude to Muslim people. You're the one doing that. i'm talking about muslims who use decent muslims for their insidious agenda. Just like they use women & children as human shields they also use people to make up numbers in democratic countries by coercing the decent folk to become refugees.
if you can't see that happening then you'll never be able to observe anything or if you do see I can only assume you'e part of the problem.
Take your pick.

//I'm closer to Muslims than you care to know// Claiming an affinity with Muslims are you?

//coercing the decent folk to become refugees.// people become refugees because of circumstances, be it man made through war or persecution, or through natural disasters such as famine. There is no sinister organization coercing people to become refugees. Of the around 70 million refugees in the world about two thirds are displaced within their own boarders. Only 5% of refugees are people seeking political asylum, and even fewer in Australia.
Much of what you claim is the product of a fertile imagination. Things you invent to justify your distorted beliefs. What you fail to realize is the biggest sufferers at the hands of Muslim terrorists, are Muslims themselves, they are killed in far greater numbers than Westerners. If some sinister organization of radicals wants to convert moderate Muslims to their way of thinking, they are not doing a very good job at it. Stop seeing refugees as a product of their own doing, and see them as innocent parties in this whole bloody mess. Then you might get an idea of what's going on in the world.

Paul1405 "There is no sinister organization coercing people to become refugees."

Smugglers coerce people with the promise of riches etc, so according to you smugglers are not sinister organizations, then what are they?

Forgetting economic refugees which a very high percentage are.

Forgetting Soros and others paying for the NGO ships that are being contacted soon after leaving shore to be picked up

Quote "Stop seeing refugees as a product of their own doing, and see them as innocent parties in this whole bloody mess."
So what do you classify Economic refugees as?
They certainly are not innocent victims of anything but greed.

Philip S, there is no such thing as an economic refugee. One is either a refugee, caused by the circumstances outlined previously, whose status has to be determined through the proper process, or one is an immigrant seeking a new life. Refugees in general will have very poor economic circumstances.It is understandable that some people through economic necessity with want to migrate, Australia takes many such people. When people arrive unannounced, "boat people" as they are called by some, we also have many more "plane people" (overstayers) arriving as well, but those economic migrants never seem to get much of a mention. The bona fide's of all arrivals have to be determined, and what action follows is dependent on their status. some will be deported, some will be allowed to stay.
People Smugglers do not create refugees, or economic migrants for that matter, all they do is provide a service by trading in human misery.

Paul1405 quote "there is no such thing as an economic refugee"

You have just blown an credibility with that statement.

What is an economic refugee.
An economic refugee is a person who leaves his or her home country in search of better job prospects and higher living standards elsewhere.

If there is no such thing, what do you call the people who come under the category in my above definition?

Philip, I consider them economic migrants. The biggest group of economic migrants are from New Zealand. I have many such migrants within my own family. They leave NZ for the better pay and economic prospects in Australia. They are not suffering from some humanitarian crises, but are looking for a better material life here in Aussie, they can return to NZ at any time.
About two thirds of refugees are confined within their own boarders. When the humanitarian crises passes they are free to return to their homes. For some there is nothing to return to, so they need to migrate elsewhere. I place much harsher conditions on illegal economic migrants than should apply to genuine refugees. Australia as a signature to the UN charter on refugees is obliged to take such people, no matter how they arrive, wherever possible. We have no such obligation to economic migrants.

How many refugees are streaming into Europe & those who are trying to get into Australia are from non-islamic countries ?

individual, Most would be escaping violent Islam as they are authorised by Mohamed's rantings to kill religious defectors and difference.

Josephus, I have to ask what kind of Christian are you? You seem to be a finger pointer with little of that so called Christian compassion for refugees, I hope I am wrong about you.
Realistically, if all these dumb arse organized monotheism religions were given the flick by humanity then the world would be a better place. On balance for any good Christianity, an off shoot of Judaism, and Islam, another total disgrace, might achieve, the down side is simply not worth the effort! Would you not agree.

Paul, there are offshoots of Islam that are civilized and adjust to Western democratic society. Those that take the words of Mohamed as gospel of Allah must be removed from society. Close all exclusive Muslim Schools.

//Those that take the words of Mohamed as gospel of Allah must be removed from society.//

Josephus, that's saying that Christians that accept the words of Christian prophets as the divinely inspired word of God must be removed from society. I don't think you're going to get many takers for that sort of thinking, especially when most people are bright enough to figure out what euphemisms like 'removed from society' mean. We've all read '1984', mate.

//Close all exclusive Muslim Schools.//

Make that all private schools, and yeah, no worries, count me in.

But don't expect to recruit people who aren't all that bothered about religion into your sectarian conflicts. They could be worshipping Satan or Cthulhu for all I care; as long as they're not being dicks, I have zero f&^ks to give about their kooky beliefs.

//But don't expect to recruit people who aren't all that bothered about religion into your sectarian conflicts. They could be worshipping Satan or Cthulhu for all I care//

That's true Toni. A bit like those that believe in astrology/the occult, harmless if you don't take it all that serious. Its when the fun goes out of it, and it becomes some kind of consuming passion that rules ones life. Or you stop sacrificing chickens, and start sacrificing children, then that's a whole new ball game

individual, Most would be escaping violent Islam as they are authorised by Mohamed's rantings to kill religious defectors and difference.
Josephus,
Thank you, finally someone's getting the idea of how it all works.

Toni,
The basis of Western society developed from Christian societies who allowed freedom and independent thought and diversity of thought. However with the rise of atheistic paganism and sexual perversion in education, has encouraged Christians to educate their own children in their values.

I would hate for my children to have your relational attitudes to people of the Christian faith.

//However with the rise of atheistic paganism//

Atheistic paganism, eh? You know that's a contradiction in terms, right?

//and sexual perversion in education//

Yeah, we heard a lot about that during the royal commission.

//I would hate for my children to have your relational attitudes to people of the Christian faith.//

Because I've suggested that should be treated the same way you'd like to treat Muslims? Jesus, wow...

Doesn't that make you stop and think at all about how you'd like to treat Muslims? I thought Christians followed the golden rule. Maybe I got you guys mixed up with Jews or something.

Just because I'm not interested in your sectarian crap, it doesn't follow that I somehow hate Christians... a lot of Christians aren't interested in your sectarian crap either.

Toni Lavis,
So, in your view how did the left become so insipid & how do you think both Left & Right could come back somewhat from the extremities before they overstep the mark totally ?

//The basis of Western society developed from Christian societies who allowed freedom and independent thought and diversity of thought.//

Which Pope was that? Mate, Christianity retarded Western intellectual development by 1,000 years. I would say despite the impositions placed on mans development by the superstitious dogmatic wrongs of Christian thinking, men of enlightenment were able to progress. Galileo Galilei was proving the spherical earth rotated around the sun, when your mob still believed the earth was flat! According to Christian doctrine as established by the Roman Inquisition 24th February 1616 "It is foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical to hold such a belief that the earth rotates about the sun, since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture". That fantastic truism was conveyed to Galileo whose life was then in danger.

Josephus, I hope you believe the earth is flat, and are not one of those atheistic pagans who believe otherwise. What's it to be? Flat or round!

//Galileo Galilei was proving the spherical earth rotated around the sun, when your mob still believed the earth was flat!//

No, they weren't quite that daft. They knew the Earth was round; but they were still clinging to the Ptolemaic model of the solar system with a stationary Earth at the centre and everything revolving around it.

Which I suppose can be considered technically correct if you consider it relativistically.... but it's a stupid way to do astronomy.

//"It is foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical to hold such a belief that the earth rotates about the sun, since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture"//

And yet it moves.

//So, in your view how did the left become so insipid//

Probably either insufficiently hot water, or insufficient infusion time.

Sorry Toni,

As an atheistic pagan, just the other day, I was praying to the god Baal, and he told me in a vision that the earth is defiantly flat (except for the bumpy bits). Who am I to not believe the great Baal.

BTW, I am possibly the only person on the forum who has actually met a real live living god in the flesh. My wife took me to the isolated Waipoua Forest in the north of New Zealand, and after a 30 minute walk into the thick forest there standing before us was the god, Tane Mahuta. A rather spectacular chap I must say. My wife, although a claimed Christian, she believed it was a pilgrimage she had to make. I was not completely convinced Tane was a god, I thought he was more likely a large tree, but you never know, so the wife said.

http://vimeo.com/42714008

Paul, I see you associate Christian thought with Roman Catholic Papacy. Most Popes never came near Jesus Christ's teaching. He was a radical purist in a corrupt religious World. In every country where reformed Christianity has been dominant in the last 100 + years it has brought betterment to its citizens. Those that have called themselves Christian but have not obeyed and lived by Christ teaching have been equally part of the pagan cultural demise. A persons attitudes and behaviour identifies their culture, so we need to find the influencing source and if it threatens the wellbeing of our society we must re-educate, isolate or relocate the offenders.

I see Paul you atheists try hard to make Christians you disagree with look ignorant. I am sorry to disappoint you; I follow the teaching of Isaiah 40: 22 written 600 BC that identifies the Earth in round. The Jews followed the ancient Egyptian views on Earth science that the Earth was round.

Josephus,
//Most Popes never came near Jesus Christ's teaching. He was a radical purist in a corrupt religious World.//

Agree about the Popes, they were men for their times. Somewhat different from the concept of Pope we have today.

Christ, so we are lead to believe was some kind of fundamentalist Jew, a bit of a Martin Luther of his day. What we can't attribute to Christ is much of what is purported to be the "teachings of Christ", unfortunately Christ did not see it as necessary to record his teachings in a formal text. That came some time later, and although it may contain some of the wisdom of Christ, the New Testament is also likely to contain very much the beliefs, and the general Christian principles of the times, plus the thoughts and beliefs of the writer himself. I believe there is nothing wrong with doing that.
What I do find interesting is today's Christian attitude towards refugees, some are extremely compassionate, others not so. All believing they are applying the Christian principles. It would be interesting if Christ returned to see which side of the fence he would be on, I would like to think he would firmly plant himself on the compassionate side.

Islam, is probely as complex as Christianity in its teachings, interpretations and beliefs. Like Christianity, there is not one homogeneous doctrine that all must follow, it is a mishmash of conflicting beliefs and interpretations.

If I make the bland statement to Christians, "Love thy neighbor", I would get many different interpretations and applications of that basic principle. But then there are over 20 passages contained in the Bible that support violence towards others. The Quran is most likely just as complex.

a real live living god in the flesh
Paul1405,
wrong thread, go to this one.

When trees have emotions, irrationality takes root

Paul, the Koran identifies, innocent persons that under our view, who are to be murdered, taken as slaves because of their beliefs. The teachings of Christ give no encouragement to kill anyone, even one's enemy. The Old Testament only identifies the guilty to be put to death, which is not identified as Christian. That is why Christian law incarcerates criminals not put them to death.

Dear Josephus,

What a load of rot!

I won't go into all the violence and murders committed
by Christians since day dot. You can Google it for
yourself on the web. History tells a different story
to the picture you're presenting.

Suffice to say that - no religion is inherently peaceful
or violent, nor is it inherently anything other than
what its followers make it out to be.

Foxy you are as ignorant as those Roman Catholic Popes, who claimed to be Christian, but never read or lived by the words of Christ. Read and study Christ's words.

Attack the ideology of what Christ or Mohamed taught as lifestyle not what individual people who do not live by it do. It is Islam as taught and practised by Mohamed that is the problem; if you have a problem of those living devotedly by the teachings of Christ then expose such.

Josephus, there is inherent goodness in much of the teachings of Christianity, and most self respecting Buddhists, not to mention atheists as well, live by the same good principles. These good principles are not an exclusivity of Christianity, or any other religion, they extend to many, including I'm sure, to many Muslims.
It would be easy to engage in a tit-for-tat exercise pointing out unacceptable negatives contained in the text of most organized religions, and with Christianity and Islam that would be an easy undertaking.
Foxy, rightly points out its "Suffice to say that - no religion is inherently peaceful or violent, nor is it inherently anything other than what its followers make it out to be."

Foxy,
you're missing the point by so much that trying to get you to understand one would have more chance to win the lottery.

Josephus, in defense of what Foxy posted, and those bad Popes are a good example. I don't know to what extent they had read the Bible, its not that important. However given they were worshiping a different god to you, that's right, a different god, a vengeful, spiteful god, as at the time Christianity deemed god to be. At some later point Christians reinterpreted god, your god, as a kind forgiving loving god. Those bad Popes applied Christianity so as it reflected the god of the time. They believed as strongly as you do that they were applying Christian principles.
As for the teachings of Islam and the life of Mohammed, I like you are not qualified to that extent that we can argue the pros and cons of it all. Since I think the practices and beliefs of monotheistic religions are a load of rubbish in general, I wont debate that point.

Something Christians skip over as they attribute the practices of their religion to Christ, is the fact that nothing is known with any certainty at all about Jesus, or his life and beliefs. Some even doubt that he existed at all, and the Christ as we see him is a copulation of several "prophets" associated with a minority sect withinp Judaism at the time. Mohammed is a bit more concrete, but again his life is vague and somewhat mysterious as well.

There are strong links and similarities between Christianity and Islam, Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet. In something I read, Muslims say it was the Christians of Abyssinia that saved Islam by giving the followers of Mohammed sanctuary in their kingdom when the Muslims were driven from Medina and threatened with destruction by the pagan tribes of Arabia.

Paul, Read the New Testament and the Koran and decide which are the values most benefit to a healthy society. There is billions who follow the Koran and billions who follow the New Testament.

You as an atheist might not agree with theism but the major part of human population follows to some degree one of these books, taught by Imams, Priests or Pastors. I suggest to be informed you attend a large Mosque, a Cathedral and Church.

Joesphus, why have you jettisoned the Old Testament, is that because it contains much of the nasty stuff associated with Christianity. I am familiar with Christianity, having read the Bible, I still possess a copy, and had a Catholic education.
I have little interest in Islam, I much prefer Buddhism as an alternative to any of those monotheistic religions.

Paul, Christianity is based in the teachings and life of Christ and encompasses every individuals need of forgiveness, cleansing and fullness of life. The Old Testament refers to a nation and its politics written over 2,000 years; Islam is a merchants impressionist view of the Old Testament written‎ after 583–609 by one Arab who became a warmonger.

If you are to become balanced informed read the Koran.

Dear Josephus and Indy,

It's not me who's missing the point.

The following link is worth a read:

http://charterforcompassion.org/karen-armstrong-there-is-nothing-in-the-islam-that-is-more-violent-than-christianity

Foxy,
That link is purely academic i.e. an irrelevant attempt to balance/counter the real issue which you still don't appear to grasp & Paul appears to be a proponent for the problem.
As this debate has reached the point of pointlessness I'll sign off.

Hi Foxy, thanks for the link, an interesting read. The fact is the monotheistic religions of Christianity and Islam are more alike than different on the score of violence. Western democracies have perpetrated a huge amount of violence on others, but its state sanctioned violence which we rationalize as necessary good violence. In all wars religion is used to invoke the support of god by both sides. Christians will pray to their peace loving god for support and then go off and kill innocents, and think nothing of it.

//need of forgiveness, cleansing and fullness of life// Josephus one has to assume one is firstly in need of forgiveness (for what?) and then cleansing and then some kind of fullness?, (what is that). If Christianity can bring you the good life you seek, then go for it. However, I do believe human beings can reach nirvana without the trapping of some monotheistic religion. Try this and tell me what you think.

http://www.sapphyr.net/buddhist/buddhist-core.htm

Here are some shocking statistics.

Turkey's Human Rights Association (IHD) has issued a chilling report about children's rights abuses in Turkey. According to it, "since 2002, under the AKP [Justice and Development Party] rule, 440,000 children under the age of 18 have given birth."

"One in every four marriage in Turkey is a child marriage," said Selen Doğan, a member of Ankara-based Flying Broom Women's Communication and Research Association.

According to the Turkish Civil Code, men and women cannot marry before they turn 18.

"According to the data of TÜİK [Turkish Statistical Institute], in the last 10 years, 482,908 [underage] girls have been married off with the permission of the state. In the last six years, 142,298 have become mothers and most got married in religious [Islamic] ceremonies."

"A List of Shame That Will Shatter Turkey," is the title of a report published by the Turkish newspaper Hürriyet, which includes the names of 115 underage girls who gave birth at just one Istanbul hospital, Kanuni Sultan Süleyman Education and Research Hospital, during just five months in 2017.

Worse, the scandal was covered up by the administration of the hospital. They failed to inform either the police or judicial officials -- even though they are obligated to do so by law and regulations when they discover a minor is pregnant or has been subjected to sexual abuse.

Instead, the social worker who exposed the scandal, Iclal Nergiz, has been persecuted by the hospital and other authorities. An investigation has been launched against her, her place of work has been changed twice and she has been exposed to heavy pressure and harassment. "Ever since the incident was exposed, nothing has changed except for my punishment [by the hospital]," Nergiz said in one interview.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/13051/turkey-child-marriages-pregnancies

Philip, what you highlight is some of the problems caused in a disadvantaged society by the lack of education, opportunity, ignorance, poverty etc etc. To blame a stupid monotheistic religion for this kind of injustice is unfair. One could highlight similar problems in many Christian countries in the third world, where children are exploited. These religions with their anachronistic rules and support of the status quo do nothing to bring about real social change

Paul I challenge you to give a report of underage girls being marriage approved by the State, currently happening in a dominant Christian Country. This is to prove your claim. Otherwise you sprout nonsense!

Paul1405 With this quote I will agree with you "the problems caused in a disadvantaged society by the lack of education, opportunity, ignorance, poverty etc etc."

But with this one I disagree because what Muhammad did is what there religion is based on.
Quote "Muhammad, the founder of Islam, married Aisha when she was six and consummated his marriage with her when she was nine. He was 54 years old. The Koran also advocates the practice."

Philip that is similar to the accounts of Joseph the father of Jesus, an older man whose wife Mary was about 12 when betrothed to him, and most likely a close relative, it was the common practice of the time among Jews. What Muhammad did was socially acceptable in Arabia in 600AD. Those who want to apply the social norms of those periods in 2018 have rocks in their heads. Ancient Greeks seen nothing wrong with paedophilia, something totally unacceptable today.
The Muslims should do what the Christians did, and write the New Koran and sanitise out the nasty bits, a great marketing ploy.

Josephus, you would be rather naive if you didn't believe children were not being exploited, including for sex, in very Christian South America.

Paul I suppose the State and the members of the Christian Church in South America approved of the sexual exploitation of children?

Hi Josephus,

Being 99% Catholic Church in South America, why would that mob oppose paedophilia, given their track record in countries like Australia. Can't see them acting any different in third world countries where opportunities abound.

BTW, how do you rationalise the actions of the paedophilic Catholic clergy, who had no doubt read and understood Christs instructions in the New Testament, yet did what they did. Was there something in the Bible they could use to justify their sickening behaviour.

Paul, nowhere does Christ allow or encourage paedophilia. He states if anyone offends a child it is better that a stone be placed around his neck and be cast into the sea.