Many have been criticising Pres Trump on his "Trade War".
I have just watched a long documentary, 1h20m, on the loss of the US manufacturing industry.

It was made while Obama was still President. I think you will see an
explanation for Trump's election and trade campaign and a few lessons
for us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMlmjXtnIXI

China I suspect is now reaching the stage where it will own all the
technological facilities of the world and the majority of the manufacturing
capability. Along with that they seem to be accumulating most of the
debt holding of the world.
They have at present about US$3Trillion of US debt.
Think they might call that in one way or another ?
They will need a really tough negotiator to get them out of this mess.
What is Australia's debt to China ?

The Democrats and the American Left in general are blaming President Trump for quite a few things that were happening under President Obama. Their hatred has blurred their judgement. The non-Democrat, non-Left can see that Donald Trump is actually repairing the mess left behind by the worst president ever

Bazz,
China can't just call in its debt, but it could sell its bonds or wait for them to mature and not renew them.

But consider what would happen if it does! The debt is all in US dollars, so what would China do with all those US dollars? As soon as it starts to sell them, the US dollar would fall - which reduces the value of the ones they still hold. Meanwhile a weakened currency would see US manufacturing becoming far more competitive.

No negotiations are needed.

___________________________________________________________________________________

ttbn,
Obama was quite an ineffective President, but Bush, who started most of the trouble, was far worse. And further back in history, there are worse Presidents than Bush.

Trump is walking talking evidence you can fool some of the people all of the time, his pro Russia rant,, not all that long ago would have bought his supporters to boiling point, he is a threat to peace world trade and sanity, if we want a manufacturing industry here do not buy American, cars on top of the list,but buy nothing from them until Trump is gone

Bazz,

Manufacturing goes to where the wages are cheaper: check out where Chinese firms are re-locating to - Vietnam, Kenya, Sri Lanka. The flight overseas of manufacturers is not necessarily a sign of economic weakness, merely that the production of commodities can be done overseas with cheaper labour, while the higher levels of the production process stays in the 'mother' country. Hence lower-level and old-tech production has been winding down for a generation in the US and re-locating. Dinosaurs go extinct. But the dung beetles will still hang around the arse of the last one, waiting and hoping.

One thing Trump can't get his head around (okay, amongst many things) is that the balance of payments includes more than a surplus or deficit in goods traded: the US exports vastly more in services to China than vice versa, something like $ 700 billion p.a. So the balance of payments - the balance of total goods and services - is actually in America's favour. It's a pity that Trump never studied economics, this is usually taught in first year at universities Usually in the first term. So now we will have a completely unnecessary, raging trade war instead.

If I was in the US, I would be unsurprised if the prices at Walmart started rising steeply. Great work, Donny.

Joe

Dear Bazz,

It was Obama who supported their car industry during the GFC when the Republicans wanted them to fail.

There is a difference between imposing tariffs along with lowering taxes compared to government support through tough times to ensure a local manufacturing base. The latter was an anathema to the hard right.

We had no such saviour for ours when our dollar was well over the US dollar and our industry needed backing to get through the mining boom.

A couple of years ago bloomberg reported that German auto workers were being paid 50% more than their US counterparts and yet German auto manufacturers produced nearly 100% more cars than them.

When the downturn happened German companies and workers got together and agreed to temporary wage drops to weather the storm. My understanding it that not one German auto worker lost his job due to the GFC.

Sorry Joe, you are wrong on that one. The yanks can thank their lucky stars that Trump learnt in business, & never studied economics.

You only have to look at who believes & promotes the global warming scam to realise that economists, & the modern breed of journalists are the most naïve & easily fooled people in western society.

Yes the export of services is great for the affluent class, with the right connections & education, but it does not a damn thing for the bloke or bird who used to screw things together in a factory.

Trump obviously knows this, but academics, lawyers & economists don't understand, or more likely don't give a damn about it or the people they hurt. I'm surprised you don't see who he is trying to support.

Hi Has been,

Yep, the 'export' of services is a great boon to certain classes and, on balance, boosts the economy overall, at the expense of the workers in declining industries, whose products can be produced more cheaply in other countries with lower wages.

So are you suggesting that Trump is not only aware of this, but also expects that the US must have a surplus with China not only in services but in goods as well ? And with every other c country ?

I don't think practical economics works that way. Yes, bullying and insults may help that along, but that's not a one-way process. Nor does it help the fragile world economy along. I'll stick to my suggestion that Trump do a first-year course in economics. It might even help him avoid yet another bankruptcy.

Just trying to help.

Joe

Yes Aiden I am aware that they just cannot call in the debts but they
can just start selling their US Treasury off and blackmail the US to
behave as they require.

No Loudmouth, I do not think that anyone expects the US to sell much
physical stuff to China.
I suspect Trump wants to get their factories selling stuff to the US.
It is the collapse of manufacturing that caused the unemployment.
The East and West coasts are OK because they mostly live on those
services that were mentioned.
It is the fly over states (gawd what a put down) that suffered.

Well we have our own version, except they are in the western suburbs.
Can we call them fly overs ? Perhaps drive throughs on the way to the snow ?

No, Bazz, the USA can call their bluff. If China tries to attack the US dollar, it will lose more than the USA will.

________________________________________________________________________________

SteeleRedux,
Our dollar shouldn't have been over the US dollar at that time. It was only that high because the RBA board were actively sabotaging our economic recovery with high interest rates because they were paranoid about inflation.

As for Germany, their wage cuts exacerbated the problem in the rest of the Eurozone where no such cuts occurred.

Bazz,

Blackmail ? I suppose one man's tactics is another man's blackmail.

But again, "... are you suggesting that Trump .... expects that the US must have a surplus with China not only in services but in goods as well ? "

As for who benefits from the US's surplus in 'services provided' and who loses from its 'deficit in goods provided', that's another issue, more to do with differential technological development and equity. But regional imbalances in the US are hardly China's (or anybody else's) fault.

Joe

Yes Joe, it had nothing to do with china directly, except first Jap followed by China low prices was the problem.

Lousy management of unions, & industry started the problem, as it did here for a time with our mining, previously, & now starting again now.

Union bosses talk their membership into being too greedy, & company bosses, in the good time give in to ridiculous demands, because the money is rolling in.

US car companies giving full health care for life was fine in the 50s, but by the 80s, with foreign companies now building their cars in the US, without having those conditions attached killed the US industry.

These services industries are fine, until the consumer learns to do their own washing. Here we have only 3 industries left, building, mining & farming. Once upon a time, shipping costs protected our car & white goods industries. I wonder when the Chinese will start shipping finished houses?

They have to mine here, but they are owning many mines, & the Chinese just bought the 15,000 acres across the river from me, some of the best farmland in SE Queensland. I wonder who will drive the tractors?

Dear Hasbeen,

You wrote;

“Trump obviously knows this, but academics, lawyers & economists don't understand, or more likely don't give a damn about it or the people they hurt. I'm surprised you don't see who he is trying to support.”

Oh come on mate even you can't be that bloody clueless.

Strip away healthcare for millions of workers and drive up the deficit by billions of dollars just so he could shovel billions of dollars of tax cuts to big businesses including his own and you think he is looking out for the little guy?

Give me a break.

This traitorous, slimy, train wreak is heading off the cliff and you are still chasing his behind with your lips puckered.

Even Fox News is starting to cut him loose.

This Maddow clip might give every one an idea of have far things have progressed. One thing she brought up that I didn't know was that Trump signed a deal to build Russia's tallest building during the primaries and didn't mention it.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/maddow-time-for-americans-to-face-worst-case-scenario-on-trump-1278891587866?v=b

This bloke is so compromised now and yet here you are, still a paid up member of the Trump cult.

Shame.

It's strange that when the recent upturn in the US economy was the result of Obama's policies, Trump took all the credit for himself but whenever things go bad, he inevitably blames the previous administration.

He praises despots like Putin, Kim Jon-Un, Duerte and Erdogan (and even said nice things about Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi) and brushed aside incidents such as Tiananmen Square as an understandable response to a riot where the Chinese "showed strength" - but trashes relations with allies like Germany, England, France and Canada and then deliberately lies and misleads about the true cost of NATO.

The recent Putin meeting was only intended to help defend himself from allegations of collusion.

Despite all the hollow assurances, manufacturing will never return to the USA as it was before. As many jobs are being taken by robots than by immigrants and overseas outsourcing is there to stay. Even Trumps's own brand of executive clothing and Melania's name brand of shoes were being manufactured in China and Mexico and much of the steel Trump used to build his towers came from China.

The inimitable "Donald", and the incompatibility of chalk and cheese....

Hi Has been,

Yes, low prices for the US consumer have a dreadful impact on regional economies there. So, are you suggesting that consumers should get out on the streets and demand higher prices at Walmart ? That they should refuse to buy from Walmart etc. and buy only from higher-priced department stores whose products are made only in the US ?

I can see the placards now:

"Strike Against Walmart and Affordability NOW !!"

"Low Prices Are Un-American !!"

And HasBeen there with a megaphone :

"Whaddawe Want ? Higher Prices !! When Do We Wannem ? NOW !!"

Effectively, this is just what Trump stands for, to the extent that he genuinely stands for anything at all apart from Trump Industries & Bankruptcies Management Inc. Tell me I'm wrong :)

Cheers,

Joe

A rather disingenuous answer Joe, I'm surprised.

My point is that we are way overpaying ourselves. This may help a few, but only harms most. By paying semi skilled process workers building cars at least twice what the work was worth, we destroyed our car industry. Workers were not paid what their labour was worth, but by how much withdrawing their labour could cost their employer, or disrupt the community.

Think wharf labourers & submarine builders & train drivers. Those who can gain by holding someone to ransom gain, but the vast majority are much worse off, &/or their jobs disappear.

In the mid 60s I was the technical services officer for a company supplying ABS, [plastic raw material] to 7 companies in Sydney making TVs & radios. We supplied a dozen white goods manufacturers & dozens of custom injection moulders making parts for small appliance manufacturers.

I went sailing, & by 1976, after Whitlam & the crazy wage rises, they were all gone. Some were still in business as importers, but manufacturing had been killed by ridiculous costs. The worst thing was that by then, any price reduction had long disappeared. Asian manufacturers & importers were quick to increase their prices when they could.

In 76 I spent the cyclone season in Gladstone. Another yachtie mate doing the same got a job with 30 others I as a labourer installing insulation in the powerhouse being built at the time. Great job, 4 months work with higher pay than he got as a design engineer in Sydney. Only problem was the union. The electrical trades was very aggressive at the time, & he had been on strike for 2 of the 6 weeks so far.

At the meeting he voiced his opinion. At the present rate of strikes, it was going to take him 6 months to earn 4 months pay. No matter how much more money they could get from striking, he would be worse off than just getting paid for 4 months straight.
Continued

Continued.

He was told to get out of town by union leaders. He didn't, as it turned out he had 30 mates who wanted to work rather than go on useless strikes, & told the union people in no uncertain terms.

The large high speed cats I ran for tourists in the Whitsundays were built by NQEA in Cairns. One was new, & still having warranty problems. NQEA became hard to deal with after they got the contract to build navy patrol boats. They had to import a lot of their increased workforce from south, & got union problems with the southerners. {Mexicans are always trouble}.

Most of our problems were with multi technology systems, often requiring electrical, electronic hydraulic & perhaps air conditioning expertise to cure. The strikes that never stopped with these southern unionists were bad enough, but they had been forced to grant a 9 day fortnight, which meant it was only Tuesday Wednesday & Thursday when you would find all the required expertise at work together.

In fact we had to sort many of the designed &/or built in problems ourselves, which took almost 9 months, plus a lot of effort & money.

The 9 day fortnight was so unworkable in a small/medium business that when the patrol boat contract was finished they abolished it unilaterally. They had to suffer a 3 month strike, which saw most of the Mexicans return south, to get the business operable again.

It is this bloody mindedness by some that has cost us much industry, & made others simply unviable.

Has been,

Ah, I see - you don't want higher prices for imported goods, but lower wages for US workers. Is that it ? If they all got much lower wages, manufacturing companies would remain viable. So:

Hasbeen with megaphone: "Whadda We Want ?" "Lower Wages !" "When Do We Wannem ?" "NOW !"

Workers could go on strike for lower wages. Really dedicated workers could throw themselves on the battlements and demand NO wages at all. Yeah, that might work. That might force the companies to sit up and take notice. Bastards, paying good wages.

Cheers,

Joe

Australians have priced themselves out of the market with a higher minimum wage than than the UK, NZ. France, Germany, Canada and the US.

Measured in Australian dollars, it is some 30% above the German national minimum wage, 50% above the UK’s, and 80% above Japan’s.

Statement- "Can We Get our Manufacturing Back ? Trumpery ?"

Answer- There is some great work in carbon fibre manufacturing. This is the first good news for Australian manufacturing I've heard in a while. For a manufacturing industry it needs a business model, develop products that are in demand, hopefully for a long time. There are a number of potential opportunities but all the pollies and bureaucrata are Arts graduates. Even in industry more focus is on "soft skills". Overall for all the talk about innovation in fact not much is done. Howard's innovation policy was just tax breaks for his mates. Someone talked about the ladder of success a few years ago saying that a few rungs are missing. A lot of good ideas come from individuals- so there needs to be a way of bringing these ideas to market- we need to empower patriotic capable Australian's to make Australia the envy of the world. Our focus on the education industry is the anti-thesis of innovation- we're creating innovation for other countries. Intrenched business protectionism in Australia has suffocated innovation. For a while I've had the view that what is required is an understanding of the needs to support the business life cycle of businesses of different sizes. The business incubators I've seen are inapproapriate for startups- and just shows a misunderstanding of startups. The high price of land (and high growth) means it's harder to start businesses especially manufacturing. Innovation and Business Development involves partnerships- the high level of immigration has fragmented the community reducing opportunities for partnerships- yes it's increased the size of the Australian market. For those businesses currently operating in the Australian market I guess it's easy revenue in the short term. But as ethnic substitutes come online this revenue increase is lost in the medium term.

It's interesting to look at the consumer habits of different ethnic groups. As with most problems to advance you have to understand the issues to a greater order of magnitude. For example to look at business investment is not enough- need to look at how that investment is applied- is it new products and manufacturing processes or just increased production capability. At some stage we will need to realise that globalised business is not in Australian interest- it's a small country- the view of a few of us is the anti-tariff / free trade propaganda is invalid. Global business will always try to create a bidding war- we need to turn the game around so that if global business wants to sell in Australia they have to make in Australia. Sometimes it's not possible to do this- balance of trade has been extremely important for security throughout history- but there needs to be an approapriate balance between self sufficiency and global trade. Some of us believe that the benefits of global trade can be achieved through other mechanisms such as the federal model. The western world has relied on their "advanced technology" since the beginning of the industrial revolution for their "trade surpluses"- soon they will no longer be able to do this. In order to avoid being trapped by varying movements of industrial segments they will need to be more self sufficient.

Hey Bazz,
Ok I've considered your question and here's my answer:

No.
We cannot get our manufacturing back.
The reason why we cannot get our manufacturing back is this:

Democracy.
I blame democracy.

The nature of democracy is that we have two idiot main parties that never get along and never agree.

'Too many cooks spoil the broth'

In order to save manufacturing we'd need a dictator to make hard decisions and invest in nuclear to reduce the cost of energy, and even then we still have expensive and inefficient freight.

(The only other way to attract manufacturing business is to lower wage costs.)

That's not going to happen while democracy ensures that that one side opposes nuclear and will stymie any way forward.

Secondly the government treats 'energy' as a commodity it can profit from.

This is idiot logic and itself prevents businesses viability andSo no, unless we have a dictator that will make hard decisions to move us forward as opposed to constant squabbling and achieving nothing, then no, not going to happen.

Were on a one way debt train to destruction and rule by bankers, by design.

Hasbeen & AC,

Yes, democracy gets in the way of compulsory, low-wage labour. Lower wages would mean cheaper labour costs and thereby the retention of manufacturing in Australia. If only, you suggest, we had means to force wages down and impose compulsory labour.

As I understand you, "if only we had a dictator who had powers to compel people to work wherever he liked on low wages, with severe penalties, including capital punishment, for refusal to obey an order, then businesses would find it profitable to keep manufacturing here in Australia. "

Have I got it right now ? Was the 'capital punishment' a bit too far ?

Joe

Hey Loudmouth,
No, you misunderstood me.
What I'm saying is that there's 3 ways to increase the potential for manufacturing to return.
That would be:
Lower cost of wages
Lower energy costs
Lower transportation costs.

Lowering the cost of wages does not seem to be a good option.
So by default I have to lower energy and transport costs instead.

The reason I said we need a dictator is because I think democracy has its flaws, and that it would be better if someone just said 'we're spending 10Billion on Alan B's thorium over 4yrs and we will halve the cost on energy for both business and citizens.

But they won't do that.
They'd rather have rubbish policies like profiting from energy that makes businesses less profitable and viable.

From my point of view, it's not even a case of poor planning and incompetence by our leaders.

It's just as much a deliberate sellout of western sovereign nations by their leaders to globalism, New Word Order and One World government.

Honestly I'd rather be ruled by an Aussie dictator that had our best interests at heart rather than idiots who do nothing but ingratiate themselves and sell us out anyway.

If my past comments on democracy were not enough:
"If they make the rules for us we should make the rules for them;
without a real balance of power, real democracy is an illusion'

Then perhaps you should just read the news better.
Well actually this is the news they're not telling us-
What I actually want confirmed is whether or not Five-Eyes were complicit in helping the Russian Collusion delusion narrative in relation to Operation Crossfire Hurricane as well as helping (or attempting to help) one particular candidate namely Hillary Clinton become elected President of the US.

Are our intelligence agencies working together to help elect the leaders in our countries that they want?

That's the big question I have about our democracy.

All I'm saying is that democracy is flawed and they spend more time arguing over stupid things than they do working together for all our benefit.

AC,

Hmmmmm .... but where can we find a dictator who has our best interests at heart ? Are there many of them around ? Dictators usually seem to have other interests at heart, mainly their own.

Democracy will always be imperfect, and will always be a work-in-progress, that's its strength. It means that we all have to keep working at it.

Joe

What "markets" are we pricing ourselves out of with our minimum wage.
Our local economy perhaps?

How will lowering the spending power of the population increase the profits of any sector of the economy?

Underemployment is already bad enough with the taxpayer having to top up wage-poor workers just to help them survive. Cutting our basic wage by 80% won't suddenly make us more competitive with Japan.

This is just the typical simplistic cost-cutting mantra that employers spew forth every chance they get, comparing basic wages internationally but ignoring comparative costs of living and other local factors. These are the people who deliberately sent our manufacturing off-shore despite effectively falling wages.

I suppose our local poverty levels aren't growing fast enough for some - and it's a statistical fact they do grow considerably under conservative governments.

The most productive boom time in our economy was during the post WW2 era where people were well and fairly paid and invested their wages into infrastructure and housing.

Armchair,
>What I'm saying is that there's 3 ways to increase the potential for manufacturing to return.
>That would be:
>Lower cost of wages
>Lower energy costs
>Lower transportation costs.

Those are three ways, but they're not the only three (and the third one might actually favour imports).
Others include:
Make more valuable products
More production per worker (probably requiring increased mechanisation)
Lower Australian dollar (which unlike lower wages, doesn't make it harder for workers to pay of their debts)

But before going any further, it's important to keep in mind that fabrication is only a small part of the manufacturing process. Remember Apple profits far more from iPhone sales than Foxconn does!

A society that consumes rubbish products cannot understand quality and therefore be unable to produce it.
A society that stands back and allows whatever trade expertise it had, to degenerate to non existence deserves no better.
A society that complains about what it doesn't have, only knows how to complain.
Those that know what to do, do it elsewhere, those that remain complain.
Nope...there's only one way...brain transplants./...find those looking for brand new, hardly used brains and exchange them for well worn, tested and true, to replace them......and that's only the beginning.
Australia....a nation of spectators on credit!

Bazz, Monday, 16 July 2018 3:35:36 PM said- "China I suspect is now reaching the stage where it will own all the
technological facilities of the world and the majority of the manufacturing
capability. Along with that they seem to be accumulating most of the
debt holding of the world."

Answer- The message that I got from Bazz's comment- "China will own world manufacturing and lending." (both low and high tech)

Hasbeen, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 2:56:43 PM- Wednesday, 18 July 2018 2:56:58 PM
Said- "By paying semi skilled process workers building cars at least twice what the work was worth, we destroyed our car industry. Workers were not paid what their labour was worth, but by how much withdrawing their labour could cost their employer, or disrupt the community."

Answer- Hasbeen- You have a wealth of experience and have told the story effectively. My assumptions were challenged but I'm stronger. Non-university educated are often better paid than university educated despite potentially putting more effort into their careers. That's not to say that uni grads should get higher wages necessarily- countries need to reward effort and value if the country/ business values these attributes.

ttbn, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 4:36:56 PM- Wednesday, 18 July 2018 4:29:09 PM

Australians have priced themselves out of the market with a higher minimum wage than than the UK, NZ. France, Germany, Canada and the US. Measured in Australian dollars, it is some 30% above the German national minimum wage, 50% above the UK’s, and 80% above Japan’s.

Answer- Great succinct stats.

Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 18 July 2018 5:35:36 PM- Wednesday, 18 July 2018 9:47:38 PM
Said- "In order to save manufacturing we'd need a dictator to make hard decisions and invest in nuclear to reduce the cost of energy, and even then we still have expensive and inefficient freight. Were on a one way debt train to destruction and rule by bankers, by design. "
...there's 3 ways to increase... manufacturing… return.
That would be: Lower cost of wages/ Lower energy costs/ Lower transportation costs.

continued...

Answer- Great bullet points.
AC said "We need a dictator"- I understand that "democracy isn't always decisive". There are ways of addressing that.
I think you are saying- Low "Input" Costs = Low "Output" Price
Wages, Energy, Logistics, Finance- are "common inputs" to all manufacturing businesses.
If government economic policy keeps "common inputs efficient and at wholesale prices" the manufacturing economy is "strong"- I generally agree that this is "good for business as usual".

This is "a required but not sufficient" condition- In addition to this "innovation" enables new markets to be created and new sectors of supply and demand. Often it's hard for Australian businesses to invest in serious innovation due to a number of industry factors but given its critical nature the government need to investigate its options. Often this can be done through agencies such as the CSIRO. There has been some criticism of government interference (big gov, etc) some are valid sometimes it needs to be balanced by other factors. Innovation can threaten established businesses- it's hard- just like employees need retraining- so do businesses. Sometimes there are reasons why individual businesses can't make high value goods, mechanise, or other measures- we need to try to find ways of addressing these broad industry issues.

Investing in nuclear?- Well ... I understand the need for cheap energy... I think that Tidal and Geothermal are equal and better options. I agree Tidal and Deep Geothermal need more testing- lets get started on the testing!

Tidal- Need to put 2000x 3 metre turbines (1 MW each) around Sydney Harbour= 6 GW of power (enough power for 6 Million people)- store the power by damming and pumping the water somewhere up the Parramatta River or maybe we could create some artificial lakes around elevated Hornsby for this purpose and get double benefit- improved energy and increased land value.

Geothermal- Step1- Erect big drill. Step2- Drill hole about 2 km deep. Step3- throw water down the hole and use the steam to run turbine

Bad Dog,

Geothermal - yes, just pump water down a hole and use the steam coming up to drive turbines to pump more water down the hole. x = x

Brain surgery - just shave the head, cut the top off, fiddle around a bit as necessary, and sew the top back on. Simples.

Well, energy is the key to everything. Nothing happens without energy.
The cheaper the better.
Tidal, another source demanding storage twice a day.
Hasn't the cost of storage sunk in yet. Admitably storage for tidal
does not suffer from wx problems but would be VERY LARGE.
Geothermal has been tried but they ran into trouble with corrosion.

Well I am interested in all the responses that are here.
To sum up, the situation is dire, our industry has collapsed together
with our power industry.

Our only future lies in agriculture and we must only allow in migrants
who are farmers. Anyone who does not want to farm or work in support
industries will need to migrate to India, Bangladesh or Africa.
You could convert to Islam and migrate to Eurabia.
Think I am joking ?

Hey fellers, trying to put re down won't change the facts. Pay ourselves too much, & the industry closes down. The dole is much lower than a reasonable wage for the job. We have lost so many industries, we are left with taking in each other's washing. Too high wages has done nothing but put our industry out of business & force the price of housing to ridiculous levels. Workers are no better off for the numbers on their pay packet.

We once had the cheapest power in the world, & on much lower notional wages, a family could buy or rent a house on a single wage earners income, something many can no longer do on high notional wages, & 2 wages. Just what good have those ridiculous wage increases started by Whitlam, done anyone?

Yes transport is a problem. I spent some months in the early 80s localising production of water saving brass products imported from the USA. By the mid 90s they had me to source those products from Asia to stay in business. I could import the same bit of brass, machined, chrome plated & assembled from Taiwan for about half the price of the brass stock in Oz to machine the thing from.

This is ridiculous when it was our zinc & copper used for the brass no matter where it was machined. Example, an item manufactured in & shipped from Taiwan landed in our store in SE Qld. for $3. It cost $6 to send one to Brisbane. $9 to Melbourne & $15 to Perth. Our transport costs are ridiculous.

I don't suggest I have the answer, & just lower wages would never fix the problem, but we have most certainly gone off the rails somewhere. We will not survive much longer doing what we are doing. As China increasingly gets its raw materials from Africa, we are going to find ourselves left out in the cold, & it is going to get very cold when the crutch of mining is gone.

Bazz- Thanks for the feedback. They use Geothermal in NZ and apparently supplies 13% of their power.

I found a link...
http://www.oit.edu/docs/default-source/geoheat-center-documents/quarterly-bulletin/vol-19/19-3/19-3-art1.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Bazz said- "Tidal, another source demanding storage twice a day."

Answer- Are you saying the cost of building managing a dam/ pipeline as a power storage facility makes the energy too costly? I'm aware that energy storage is the major problem. I've also come across molten salt storage (800 degrees) in my reading- the same as thorium reactors use for heat transfer- wouldn't be as big an engineering problem as building a dam I guess- still fairly experimental and low density but this isn't as much a problem in a fixed power facility.

Loudmouth- Thanks for your feedback. I found brain surgery more interesting than your description. But basically sounds right. Not that I'm an expert. As I understand the brain slides as the scalpel cuts. I'm sure there is a fair bit of risk analysis to avoid critical areas and it takes much experience and knowledge to get it right. There was some excellent programs on late at night with a surgeon that did an unusual dissection of the digestive system from the back. Rocket Science is also an interesting area- I once used a spreadsheet and the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation to maximize rocket altitude. :P

Seriously- I viewed Geothermal as essentially a simple "steam engine" but I'm not an expert on Geothermal systems so I didn't know (I should have guessed) about the corrosion. I have a fair understanding about engineering for a lay person. Are you aware of any other issues with Geothermal systems such as those used in NZ and whether there are additional issues with "deep" systems?

Sorry Canem Malum there are problems with both of those.

With Geothermal systems without a highly volcanically active area, the rocks even in hot spots, cooled too quickly to be of any use. It took most of the power generated to drill new holes to find more heat. Perhaps with horizontal drilling & fracking it may be more successful, but currently simply not productive enough long term.

Opps I used that dirty word, fracking.

No one has ever made tidal really work. Ask the Spaniards, they spent a fortune trying. They also spent another fortune trying to make wave action work. After all they have the Bay of Biscay, which is pretty wavy, but all they got was rusty scrap metal.

I KNOW! Lets try thermal COAL. That is even proven to be the cheapest way of generating electricity, so let's not try to reinvent the wheel.

With all the research coming out right now, 168 peer reviewed papers so far published this year, showing that our climate is controlled by the suns magnetic field, & the solar wind, it is about time we put the scam of CO2 to bed, & get back to some real science

Canem, geothermal in NZ is different as they have it close to
surface, ring of fire etc.
In Australia that does not exist, the way it was tried was to drill
down into the granite, don't remember how deep it was thousands of feet.
They then drill another pipe down somewhat separated and put water
down one and get steam out the other.
The granite is heated by radio activity, The government put some money
into it but all I heard was that it failed because of corrosion.

Storage complicates the system and adds very significant cost.
Far better batteries that we are always hearing are like fusion just
about to arrive.
I suspect batteries have reached that technical improvement point
where any improvement will only be at the margins.
The reason for batteries etc is to compensate for wx difficulties.
If the same wx conditions happen on the next day the battery capacity
has to be doubled. If the same wx condition happen the third day--

Np one ever considers how big the battery has to get if you get a
string of days with overcast sun and little wind.
Recently Sth Aus went for four days that I noticed with wind output
between zero and 200 Mwatt. Pathetic !

Thanks for your feedback Hasbeen and Bazz.

It's official, we have a new 'dumbest idea in the country's
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/mcdonalds-move-to-ban-plastic-straws-angers-aussies/news-story/45bdb9d7b7144891cc7fadfd033c6e20

Why am I mentioning it?

Does anyone not comprehend the country is being dismantled by socialists?

- And we're asking if manufacturing is coming back are you all insane? -

Don't you all realise the horse has bolted, lunatics run the asylum now.

Socialists, who believe that a social revolution must occur to destroy capitalism and bring in theirs and elites New World Order plans.

It's not like we have 2 parties that both work together hand in hand to bring up the best policies and future, what we have is one lot that deliberately wants to destroy everything and grind the country to a halt to force globalism on us, and our leaders are bloody collaborators in doing so.

You people better wake up from la la land.
The futures not pretty.

AC- OVerall excellent comment. But I'd add the globalists (Aust Libs, Business Lobby) are working with them for their own reasons.