In the United States people can and do swap parties.
But, in Australia many of us seem attached like glue
either with one or the other major party.
Although we do have a small percentage
of swinging votes (these folk win or lose elections).

Our allegiances vary. There are those of us whose
allegiances are so ideologically attached that we
can't imagine voting for any one else. It's why we see
both the Conservatives and Labor supporters ready to
support their sides - regardless.

Family influence has its place.

Then there are people
with a deeply ingrained sense of social justice and
a fierce desire for equality. The belief in government
helping those who can't help themselves. They believe
that the government is there to guide society and see
that there is an equitable distribution of the country's
wealth. There are also those who are very concerned
about our environment and the planet's future.

Also those who are dissatisfied with what they see
as the incompetence and lack of leadership of the
current government. Therefore as a result -
we see more and more people turning away from the
major parties.

It would be interesting to explore what influences the
votes of posters on this forum.

I read a comment from a journalist who stated -

"In my opinion we would be a much better society if we
took the risk of thinking for ourselves - unhindered by
the unadulterated crap served up by the media and
self-interest groups."

Your thoughts please.

Foxy, I look at who is my best local member, regardless of their party, because if you vote for them, and the win, happy days, well supposed to be lol, but if they win their seat but not the election as such, then they should be good opposition.

Too many people allow personal issues to get in the way of their voting. But that's also partly due to compulsory voting, which in my view should be dropped.

"Too many people allow personal issues to get in the way of their voting. But that's also partly due to compulsory voting, which in my view should be dropped."

One is not forced to cast a valid vote, what compulsion there is is to make sure that one gets one's name crossed off so that no one else can vote in one's place.

Surely this is not too onerous for the citizens?

I vote thinking only about my grand kids future.

Thus I will vote for any party which will promise to keep the boats stopped, & cut migration by 70% immediately, & by 90& in the near future.

If they will stop this stupid wind power garbage that would be a plus, but migration is the critical one for me.

I have voted against the ALP, the year we lost power in NSW that was a year of dreadful scandals and pure filth including Ministers,known forever as rats in the ranks,it took a few years to bring some back, I am proud of those who like me, refused to man booths and stayed away from the party for some time after that in the end honesty mattered more than blind support that year

The health of the nation is #1 for me but I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks for all your contributions thus far.

Personally,
I've tried to follow policies, not parties.

I grew up in a Liberal
voting family and I always used to vote for the Libs.
However after hubbie's and mine 10 year stint -
of living and working
in the US - when we returned to this country my (and his)
voting patterns changed and instead of blindly following in our
family's footsteps - We became more selective, and went after
policies instead.

I feel strongly that policies do matter, so does a party's
record and what they have achieved. As I grow
older I tend to pay more attention not to any party allegiance
but to the policies.

I think that at the next election it's not going to be an
easy choice. To me the two major parties seem very similar.
I live in a Liberal safe-seat electorate. Our federal rep.
has been in power for decades. To this day I don't know
what he actually has done. He's not on the front-bench in
Cabinet in Canberra. It would be more productive for all of
the electorate if the man was replaced with some-one with
more energy and passion.
It seems to me that all he does is have a great job - (plus
its perks) - and all he has to do is what he's told.
Not very exciting for us voters - but great for him. He's
set comfortably for life

cont'd ...

Prof. Sally Young, professor of Political Science at
Melbourne University and a regular "The Age" columnist
wrote this interesting article on - why do people vote
the way they do? She tells us that - "Weaker
voter attachment to the major parties can make events
beyond their control more significant and elections
less predictable."

The link is worth a read:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/modern-voting-patterns-test-major-parties-nerves-20141202-11y9f7.html

Foxy I am very much aware of the point made in your last post, and in all honesty think both my party and the two making up this government are not aware or just do not care.
We only need look at America, say from the rise of the tea party, till now, to see it is the case there too,I LIVE for my party, and the future one I hope it will become, but have sat at many events quietly observing as a conga line of upwardly mobile bottom licker,s crowd the leadership wife/Husband on arm, my task is not one I need approval for, being an unpaid foot soldier, but are voters wrong? hard to say yes solid immovable rocks in the heads on both sides rarely even consider change, reform, explanations, they just see them selves at the top, 6 weeks before an election the white shirts sleeves rolled up, beer at the bar with the boys and kissing baby's, gets a run,one day a leader will confront the growing they are all the same blindness, and that leader is not yet in sight

Dear Belly,

I remember the days when my dad used to talk politics
over dinner. Those were different times. Those
were the times when Party leadership was through
seniority, and patience was considered a virtue. I read
that when Harold Holt became Prime Minister in 1966 -
he proudly told his wife:

"I climbed over no one's dead body to get here."

In modern times leaders whose tenure began after 1970
and finished by 2016, almost half were victims of party
coups. That is they were displaced by their own party.
The increasing frequency of leadership coups has made things
very disruptive. The coups are often fraught by uncertainty
and crisis and sometimes these - the most personal of
political conflicts produce enduring legacies of bitterness
and internal division.

We now seem to be living in a time of disposable political leaders.
Surely we need to change things not only for the good of
the country, but for the good of us all. Voters will not vote
for disunified parties - with internal conflicts.

The way i experienced the whole show is whenever Labor got in I had to make scarfices & when the Coalition got in I didn't do much better but it was a reprieve from the stress of worrying about employment which always (in my case) was way more stable under the Conservatives.
Labor exploited the Public Service as its major vertebrae in its back & let it grow uncontrolled into the bureaucratic control mechanism it is now. The workers were given a couple of Dollars extra here & there under huge fanfare but generally the only winners are the public servants.
Now, the Turnbull outfit is following in Labors track.
The best way now would be an ALP/LNP Coalition with One Nation breathing down their red necks.
Whichever party addresses tax reform & welfare reform will get my insignificant vote from now on if I can see a hint of that in pre-election gobbledeegook.

I can only speak on my own behalf.

And, it is not going to be an easy decision at the next
election - that's for sure. Nothing is as simple as it used
to be in dad's time. I remember those nostalgic times.
Things seemed far more stable - then. And we could take quite a
lot for granted, and in many cases did. But perhaps I'm not
remembering things correctly.

I must be feeling older today.

I think -I need to get my husband to take me out
for a change of scene. Maybe go for a walk in the Botanic
Gardens - have lunch by the lake, feed the ducks, or go
to a museum or art gallery - or something.

All this political stuff is getting to me.

I think the next election is won, by Labor, it is the choice for those who have suffered over the last 5 years,Shorten is, or was much better than he has looked in those years,we do not need to love our PM but we do need very good teams, Labor in my view has that, the liberals may well have too, but factions are keeping true liberals down

Individual said- "The best way now would be an ALP/LNP Coalition with One Nation breathing down their red necks."

Answer- The "red necks" comment was interesting- perhaps some will miss the implication. And I support the general idea of One Nation curbing ALP/ LNP plans. The only way to stop immigration is by using an "anti-immigration coalition" in the senate to block legislation and if necessary supply to force the "majority pro-immigraton stance of both ALP and LNP". Once this is achieved it will be possible to slowly over a number of years prune both the ALP and LNP from Australian politics for their possible treason against the Australian people.

The suggestions so far as to how to improve our choices
of parties has been interesting to say the least.

So I'll jump in as well.

What if - we got rid of the Party system and elected
individuals for specific positions in government best
qualified and experienced for the job?

At the moment
people are picked (selected) from the Party ranks -
who are favoured for the top jobs and are not necessarily
qualified to do them. How can we get rid of this happening?
Jobs for loyalties - need to be gotten rid of.

At least in the US the Governor of the state is elected by
the people. The leader of the country is elected by the people.
Who in turn invites (in their opinion) the best and the
brightest to work with them. These people are not necessarily
selected from the party faithful.

Is this too radical an idea?

For example - former President Obama (a Democrat) had Republican
advisers working with him.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating that we become like
the US. All I'm trying to suggest is that there could be better
people in the Cabinet then there currently are - and there must be
a way to do this. Our current system could be improved - surely.

Foxy- I'm impressed by your ingenuity- Kudos. Could be a little complex given the three levels of government- could be up to thirty complex decisions for voters. In computer programming low level simple functionality is bubbled up through various levels to higher level complex functionality- a hierarchical system- Confucius talked about a similar system based on the family. If the level below votes for the one above each level of the system only needs to be concerned about the level above- the member at a particular level can make decisions based on the electorate views on topics. Perhaps a higher level of transparency can be implemented here. Any changes to our political system need to be approached extremely carefully using multiple feedback mechanisms over a long period of time- 30- 40 years, with a lot of scope for reversion. Maybe it could be implemented in companies first - or in some other public context as a test case. Your idea synchronises with an interview with one of the bank CEO's that didn't have expertise in banking.

Foxy,
You can count me in on that system, if they don't perform off they go, no massive Govt pay-outs.

Canem Malum,

Thank you for seeing the possibilities that could
work. I'm no pundit. It would take, as you suggested
much expertise to work out the details. And possibly
someone else could come up with even better and
workable ideas. But its only an idea - and something
to think about.

Individual,

Thank You for your enthusiasm.

Clearly we're not happy with things as they are.

one nation breathing down their red necks! never! the red head has the reddest neck by far but votes only with her old party, she has limited time in politics, two party preferred will continue to in the end be our government, not another out small party, but! without improvement one of those two may splinter and a true third option be the result

Foxy,

I vote for the party/person whose platform most closely reflects my values, I don't necessarily agree with everything they say or do.

The ministries are run by professional public servants. The Minister is there to ensure that the department priorities align with the election promises. Appointing someone from a different party with different priorities would be counterproductive.

Dear Shadow Minister,

In industry important works are run by project managers
who have the required knowledge and training for the given
task. The same is true in business organisations. Running
a country is much the same. So why can't the best and the
brightest with their expertise be available to guide - much
the same as project managers do. As for individual priorities
and values? Those are personal issues and should have no
bearing on the jobs at hand. For example, a project manager in the
building industry who has always project managed housing -
suddenly is given the task of managing hospitals. Is he going
to give less of himself to the new task?

cont'd ...

Running a country is not a political issue or it
shouldn't be. It is a management issue.
And politics should stay in the back-room.

Many people are religious, but they don't bring
their religion to work - or they shouldn't.
In politics you're afterall supposed to represent
ALL of the electorate - and govern for everyone.
Just like a project manager. No matter what his
personal beliefs or preferences may be. Therefore
the same should apply to running the country.
You should not just represent a select few. You
should represent the entire nation.

No point voting in my electorate, it's National Party first second and last.

If there were some chance (any chance), I'd be on board to chuck the arrogant C* out!

Foxy, Sunday, 24 June 2018 10:43:32 AM- post

Answer- The Republic advocated a beneign dictatorship critics have accused Socrates / Plato of being overly trusting of human nature. Perhaps Foxy has too here- but it's nice to be compared with Socrates.

Canem Malum,

Reading Plato should be easy, understanding Plato
can be difficult.

I like what John Kenneth Galbraith had to
say when discussing Capitalism.

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under
communism, it's just the opposite."

No point voting in my electorate, it's National Party first second and last.
diver dan,
Stop complaining, ours is Labor, count your blessings.

We need politicians who will listen to the concerns
of the voters. They need to address those concerns.

This means communicating the values that motivate
a party's political approach to the issues of the day,
and convincing voters this will improve their lot and
fortunes of those they care about. Since most Australians
care about their country, it also means showing what this
will do for the nation.

Foxy- Both Plato and Aristotle are interesting. I always enjoy the banter of the first two chapters of The Republic.

This morning the SMH poll on our two leaders is Worth the read,it seems to show a Labor victory is coming but that voters are unsure about Shorten.
Let me glimpse our future, no not psychic, not psycho, just doing the form.
Turnbull, NOT DARING to run on his achievements, and his stable master the you know who press, are about to target the man not his policy's with mud,it works, but the anti dote is there for us to see Shorten heads a team, not as in Turnbulls case, trying to hold his wild horses together, that is what influences me when it is time to vote

Foxy,

You are delightfully naive.

The mechanisms of state are run by professional public servants, many of whom are paid much more than their ministerial masters. The point of democracy is to ensure that the government is accountable to the people and to this end, the elected government through parliament legislates policies along the lines of its election promises and the government departments implement them.

The appointment of ministers in charge of departments is to ensure that the department implements the government's promises.

Dear Belly,

The voters usually get it right in the end.
Dirty tactics are now becoming a turn-off
to most people. They see right through them.
And those that try these tactics will do so at
their own peril. You'll see.

Shadow Minister,

I've worked for various government organisations and
departments over the years. I also have many contacts
within those departments. So I'm not so sure if
being "naive" is an apt description of me. Except that
I was raised to be positive - that was the influence
of my parents who lived through some horrendous times.
As the old adage states - "You can't be positive with
a negative mindset."

Of course, nobody is perfect - that's why pencils have
erasers. (smile).

Canem Malum,

You enjoy reading Plato?
Kudos to you!

Foxy,

While I salute your time in the public service unless you were in the highest echelons it is not relevant to our discussions.

Perhaps you could ask your labor buddies to avoid negative propoganda such as the mediscare campaign.

How to vote next time ?
That is a very difficult decision.
The problem is energy. Electrical energy in particular.
Both Labour & LNP do not understand that 4 - 5 = -1.
That is the fundamental problem, you cannot take four large power
stations off the grid without generating a large problem.
Neither party seems to understand that.
Labour with the Greens help will just go one worse.

Neither party has a viable policy. Vote for either of them and you
are voting for blackouts.
I watched Sth Australia's wind & other on the weekend and it varied
between ZERO and about 140 Megawatts.
The majority of that day was below 10 Mw.
Sth Australia lives on Queenslands Coal and Tasmania's hydro.
It is interesting to watch the Dashboard of the AEMO.
It will convince any greeny that wind & solar are a lost cause.

Shadow Minister,

I've always enjoyed a top position.

And, my colleagues are a mix of people from all
sides of politics. I am selective in who I
associate with in the real world. I don't
choose them according to their political outlooks
or agendas.

PS; At this moment Sth Aus wind & solar is generating ONE Megawatt.
That would not even charge their battery in 100 hours.
Must be an overcast still day.
And this is a weekday.

Dear Bazz,

Wind and solar are a lost cause?

You probably mean - for now?

But the sooner we start the less expensive it will
become and the more we will advance. And it's
something that has to be done. Because sooner or later
our finite resources will run out. So the sooner we
make a beginning, the better. So logic dictates.

Tidal and geothermal look interesting. Tidal production is in the megawatt range whereas Wind in the kilowatt range, solar in the 100 Watt range. Geothermal requires deep drilling- expensive in capital expenditure but potentially low maintenance.

I just received this today. I notice you posted it on the 22nd Foxy.
Foxy: Canem Malum, You enjoy reading Plato?

So do I. I read or have read a lot of the old writings. Some interesting ones;
Epicurius’s Letter to Menoeceus, Ovids Maramorphoses (Genesis), & Plutarchs Synposiocs 1 & 2. Just to get a gist of the Ancients train of thought.

Now;
Foxy: In the United States people can and do swap parties.

But it’s hard. Once you have registered for a Party, & you have to have a Registered Party Registration to Vote, you are virtually stuck with that Party for life. The Vitriol for one party or the other is frightening. The Everly Brothers are a good example.

Belly: one nation breathing down their red necks! never! the red head has the reddest neck by far but votes only with her old party,
Hmmm… I realize you are one of the “Dyed in the wool” Labor Supporter. I doubt one could get an Redder that that except for the Commo Party.

Belly : she has limited time in politics,

True, but hasn’t she shaken thing up & got some stagnant things moving. She may never be a major player but she is effective in her own way, much to the Chagrin of the Two Majors & the Greens.
I’ll vote for Pauline because the two majors are only interested in their own agenda & the Greens are just a Comedy Fest, be it a horrifying one for Australia.

Foxy: We need politicians who will listen to the concerns of the voters. They need to address those concerns.

Ha! & where are you going to find one of these in either of the Two majors or the Greens.

Foxy: The voters usually get it right in the end. Dirty tactics are now becoming a turn-off to most people.

Somewhat late to the party Foxy. I think most people, or more & more of them are becoming disillusioned. Just getting them to make the change is the hard part.

Jayb,

We'll see at the next election - whether voters
will make any changes. As I wrote earlier -

Massive changes have been occurring for decades in
our lives. The speed and impact of these changes
remind us not just to observe the changes but to
understand the changes and respond so that we can
thrive in these times.

Hopefully, we shall see this happen.

Jayb,
I used to defend the Coalition but then they crapped on me & now my support goes to One Nation. Not because I'm expecting them to win but because I know they're the only ones who can shake that rotten to the core two party system which is dictated to by minority groups & totally neglects the working class.
We must give Pauline support for the Nation's future sake. ALP/LNP have proven time after time that they can't manage. I'm certain with just enough support from us ON can make them accountable to do some repairs to the damage done by the two majors. People say Pauline hasn't got what it takes, she has, the maggots in the comfort zone are just too s..t scared to let her prove herself.
Federal & State & Local Govt. have been hyjacked by the thousands of public servants whose last priority is to serve the public.

CM: Tidal production is in the megawatt range

A lot in Britain I believe. Small scale at this stage. Little steps.

It has a lot to do with the Big Power Companies losing their control over the use of Energy.

Foxy, I cannot see wind & solar ever being cheap.
Consider this; Decide what the maximum load that is needed for the whole country.
Given a very large area is available, such as the size of Australia.
Install a grid system to cover all that area, not 100% of it of course but all the settled areas.
Multiply the maximum load demand by 12 and install that capacity.

There will never be enough money to pay for it.
The figure 12 comes from the effective percentage output over a winter day.
Given a large enough area to take advantage of geographically
separated weather.
12 is said to be optimistic, the smaller the geographical area the
larger that factor has to be.
The article said the number is exponential to the smaller size area.
To my limited mathematical skills that seems reasonable.

I don't think anyone has a 100% certainty on just how many times
maximum load you have to install for a given country size.
I have found it hard to find much information, but what I have written
here I think outlines the problem.
Listening our politicians I would be very surprised if any of them
has even heard of such calculations, let alone the implications.

"Then there are people
with a deeply ingrained sense of social justice and
a fierce desire for equality. The belief in government
helping those who can't help themselves. They believe
that the government is there to guide society and see
that there is an equitable distribution of the country's
wealth. There are also those who are very concerned
about our environment and the planet's future."

And there is the rub. From my perspective the majority of those who think that the government can or does deliver anything like social justice or equality appear to have little interest (or a strong opposition to) anything that looks like like social justice or equality (of opportunity) to me. All to often they are supporters of profoundly unjust systems and narratives based on their own ideology.

Often the most unjust and least interested in genuine equal treatment of people before the law that I'm aware of in any current grouping.

Terms that have been used to create a false veneer of compassion over what is a passion for authoritarian brutality against those who are not in the in group and by the looks of it a neat cover for what are often brutally racist and sexist views of the world.

My vote is to some degree influenced by a rejection of any party or politician who thinks that they can solve the worlds problems by the heavy hand of government, by unfairly treating one group for the benefit of another on the basis of a set of arbitrary criteria.

R0bert

Dear Foxy,

For me it is always having a look to see if there is a halfway decent independent standing and put them first if there is. I really feel our democracy would be a darn sight healthier with more of them around. Besides that it keeps the money from going into the pockets of the mainstream parties. I then apply my preferences based probably 60% on local issues and 40% on federal issues.

However the threats to the ABC will be hard to shift me anywhere within a bull's roar of the Coalition this election as much as Shorten annoys the hell out of me.

Jayb-

Good hearing from you again. It's great that others also read Plato- Raphael Sanzio's painting is one of my favorites. The Republic the first chapter is a beautiful gentle talk between two respectful old men- the second is the discussion between Thrasymucus and Socrates on "Might Is Right". I tried reading Aristotles Nicomachian Ethics. Thanks for your reading list I will add it to mine. You mentioned Plutarch- A long time intent to read more of the Roman's- very influencial in western culture- read Gibbon's- Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire- hard to get through. The best overview of Roman culture is Plutarch, Tacitus, Gibbon? Let me know if there are any others you would add. I've been reading classical and early modern Military / Political Philosophy from different cultures also Ayn Rand and some Nietzsche.

I've read about the technology leading British tidal power- very interesting.

Energy will probably always be geo-political. But storage is the bigger issue not production. Elon Musk's TED talks have interesting discussion on energy and engines- "everything will become electric with the exception of rockets". There are electric plasma rockets for low thrust applications not Earth launch capability. It's some way off but electric Earth launch capability may eventually come using space elevators.

Bazz- Very interesting about the 12 multiplier- I expect there are a few unstated assumptions in the model.

R0bert- Thank you for your sincere comments.

SteeleRedux- I support your view on Independents. The classic argument against this position is based on political efficiency- this can have declining validity. The ABC- Well... I've come full circle on them. There are some good programs but sadly I've become disillusioned with them recently. I've come to the point where I find that my 10 cents per day has been used to attack myself- and so I feel that I would like to withdraw my funds. The SBS even more so. Maybe if we withdraw our support from those that attack us with our own resources they will adapt their programming. As someone else here said "no tax without representation".

CM: read Gibbon's- Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire- hard to get through.

Yes, I read that about 20 years ago. I still have the Book in my Library. My interest in the Old Myths was pricked when I was a youngster. Richards Topical Encyclopedia Vol 14. I still have it. Then on to the Harvard Classics The Odyssey & The Iliad. I think I was about 12 years old at the time. Kierkegaard is interesting. I have always been a avid reader of that type of literature.

I get my Downloads from the Library of South Australia. My library is stacked with Electrical & Mechanical Technology Manuals. How to do things sort of stuff. I suppose that's why I have multiple Trades & Tickets for just about everything. Nobody will play Trivial Pursuit with me.

With Political Parties I apply the 20/80 rule mostly to all Party's. Coalition 80% I like 20% I don't. ALP 20% I like 80% I don't. Greens 90% I don't 10% I do. Pauline 90% I like 10% I don't & The same with most Independents. That's why I go with, 1 ON, 2 LMP, 3 IND, 4 ALP, 5 Green.

Here's a link on the real differences between Liberal and
Labor that some of you may enjoy.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/the-real-difference-between-liberal-and-labor-20130910-2th8s.html

Dear SteeleRedux,

Did you by any chance watch "Q&A" last night on the ABC?
It was on the NDIS. I found it very emotional and it just
confirmed for me why our ABC is worthy of our support.

I wonder how many more supporters Trump has picked up since the self righteous owners of the restuarant refused one of his workers service. You know the same hypocrites who took a Baker to court for not baking a cake with adam and adam on. The depth of hypocrisy from Hilary dummy spitters know no bounds. Oh well!

Canem Malum, well there is a lot of guess work in the figure 12.
No one will know just what that number is until someone tries to build
a system running only on solar and wind in a large country.
It is plain to see that renewables cannot do the job in a country as
small as Sth Australia.
There is just not enough weather difference in that available area.
People keep talking about batteries, but it is the scale of the
problem that destroys good ideas.
An industry group in the UK used the data for January 2016 to work out
how many batteries the size of Sth Australia's Tesla battery would be needed.
Remember that the UK has nuclear power backup.

Turned out they would have needed 14,000 batteries at $100,000 each.
I gathered from that article that it is easy to work out how many
batteries are needed for any grid.
The UK is probably too small to attempt renewables.
AEMO has all the data so they should
be able to do the calculation for Australia if they include WA.

I hope someone orders them to do it.

runner,

Give it a rest.

As I told ttbn some time ago - you've got the rest
of your life to continue to be a jerk.
Why not take today off?

runner you amaze me truly you do? how can you have lived so long and learned so little? mid terms will show even you Trump is a Chump

I certainly hope you are not right for once in your life Belly! Take a bex Foxy. I thought you would be over Hilary by now. I am glad you aren't with the rest of the dummy spitters in America.

runner,

Get over Trump. He's a disaster.

Absolute total disaster.

And so is Middle-America.

They deserve each other.

All we can do is hope that the rest of the country
turns up to vote at the next election - and kick
this lunatic out before he does even more damage.

As for Hillary Clinton?

Her time has long gone.

runner thanks, nice to know some things/posters never change, understand you have had a long wait but it may be even longer, waiting for your first original thought that is, mid terms, start looking foe reason for Trump getting hurt now

' runner,

Get over Trump. He's a disaster.

Absolute total disaster.

And so is Middle-America.

They deserve each other.'

Oh the deplorables eh Foxy. You only get over things that upset you. Personally I am loving the vast majority of things Trump has and is doing. All your abc luvvies can't hide their hatred no matter how much they try. I really think its you who needs to get over yourself Foxy. I wonder what todays lie is from the pathetically deceitful media pack? Another false picture maybe.

runner,

We'll see what happens at the next election.

Perhaps sanity will prevail.

Perhaps not.

cont'd ...

runner,

The problem - with Trump - is -

You have to stand in line to dislike him.

He's a self-made man and worships his creator.

He's introduced a new twelve-inch doll of himself
that speaks seventeen different phrases.
Which is amazing - that's five more than the real
Donald Trump.

OK. that's enough for now.

I can say one thing about Trump. He's better than the alternative, Hillary. That's for sure. If she would have got in I wonder how many people would have had "accidents." & died.

Jayb.,

Hillary Clinton is long gone.

It's Trump that should worry us.

Here's some quotes from the guy:

"Through my life, my two greatest assets have been
mental stability and being, like, really smart."

And -

"This is a country that I don't want looking foolish,
and it's not going to look foolish as long as
I'm here."

And one last one -

"The Brazilian Ambassador meets Donald Trump and offers
him 50 Brazilian soldiers to help with the fight against
terrorism. Trump says, "That's fantastic!"
Trump then tells his Chief of Staff about the offer of the
50 Brazilian soldiers. "That's fantastic!" says his
Chief of Staff.
Then Trump turns to his Chief of Staff and asks,
"How many is a Brazilian?"

I would be a democrat if I lived in America, while thinking Hillary would win, I felt she was about tenth on the list of candidates the Democrats should have run, America frightens me! its weird system of politics, take a good look at it! its seeming need for personality not policy in picking a leader, the long line of family? hand me downs who lead that country,and SOME say Kim K should run? or Opra?good grief!Yes Hillary contributed to Trump, I fear Trump,but if please if, the Democrats have learned from their mistakes it just may be the best thing ever to take place in American politics and the Democrats, we may get politics not personality back

we may get politics not personality back
Belly,
isn't that exactly why Trump is so unpoular with the comfort zone voters ? He's rattling their cage & they're worried he might upset that comfort zone. He's showing them that the traditional politics are failing because their original doctrine has been modified to suit those who don't really care for anyone or the Nation. He's telling them to perform, pull their weight not just holding out their hand because they've always done so. This is sending the country broke & he is working on changing that but the hangers-on are digging in. Too much to lose if suddenly they have to prove their worth. Same as here.

individual,

Tax cuts for the rich is not going to do it.

Same as here.

I see Hungry has a flat tax of 15% & their economy has go ahead in leaps & bounds.

https://www.bowgroup.org/policy/hungarys-tax-system-example-uk-should-follow

I have suggested a Flat Tax of 10% across the board on all Gross Earnings anywhere in the World, with no Deductions for anything what-so-ever. I think that would be fair on everyone.

I think that would be fair on everyone.
Jayb,
That's exactly what I have in mind but for some inexplicable reason some people don't want to do away with the complicated & easiliy manipulated out-dated tax system that's plagueing the Nation.
Hungarians appear to be a fair bit smarter eh ?

Yes Belly. But you know US of A has been called 'An open lunatic asylum'. By the way someone wrote UK is too small for renewable?. They have had nuclear for decades, wind and solar. However, they stopped subsidizing wind and solar (it depends where you live) they tried geo thermal and found gravity closed the vents) Solar could be OK if you have enough of them in summer only) Parts of the Northern Scottish mainland and off shore islands like the Hebrides are part of the arctic solar days and nights.

And it does get cold in UK. They thought they had a heat wave last winter, it reached 17C? But their temps are not like in Australia. If it reach 0C it will likely only go up a few Cs during the day. Not like Oz. Cold at night but warms up when the sun rises.

Trump - well he warmed up to North Korea, and finished ISIS. But Koreans don't vote in America. His domestic policies are dreadful.

His domestic policies are dreadful.
Bush Bunny,
Do you honestly expect a man who experiences more criticism & political sabotage than anyone in history to turn decades of mismanagement around before his first term is done ?
I think it's more a case of your mentality being dreadful !
Look, here in Australa we are on the eighth Prime Minister since Whitlam & they're still grappling with the effects of some of the policies he implemented. And here you are carrying on about a bloke who's only just got in ? Get real !

Bush Bunny said; By the way someone wrote UK is too small for renewable?.

What that was about is that the UK is too small to have sufficient
difference in weather to enable wind and solar to be the sole source of electricity.
Likewise Sth Aus is too small and Australia might be big enough but
it would need all areas that have grid electricity to be connected
to the one grid.

To get back to the thread I would not vote for any party that has the
aim of 100%, or even 50% wind & solar.
Even Australia cannot afford the scale of the multiplication
of solar and wind needed to cover our continent.
Russia with its vast longitudinal spread may be in a good position
to try it but it has the disadvantage that much of its territory is
too far north and would not have much solar output in winter.

You might notice that this factor in renewable electricity has never
had much coverage in the past and it is only now that any attention
has been given to this limiting parameter.

Bazz was it not you who posted so often telling us peak oil was here? your hobby and mine benefits from solar power our remote sites run on it my shack runs only on it and battery's are getting cheaper and better every year,once no doubt people said Whale oil ,was here to stay

I have no doubt that renewables will eventually arrive but they will never be fully 100%. The Tech isn't there yet, but they're working on it. Another 50 years maybe for a 80/20 split between renewables & Coal. It's not so much the generating of Renewables but the Storage. That is the Problem.

Anyway, buggar-it vote Pauline. She seems to have more answers than the rest of 'em put together.

Belly said; Bazz was it not you who posted so often telling us peak oil was here?

Yes and it did arrive in 2005 which was why the price rose through to
2008 to $147 and crashed the economy.
The industry in the US got stuck into tight oil by fracking which has
given us some ten years grace.
Unfortunately we have not taken advantage of that ten years and the
tight oil industry has now developed into a Ponzi scheme.
They are now talking about "Peak Demand" which amounts to the same thing.
As far as Australia is concerned we are now almost out of oil supply
so much so that our refineries are being closed because we do not
have enough oil to make refining viable.

Batteries are pretty much a lost cause because the extra solar cells and windfarms
that have to be installed just to recharge them makes
them uneconomic. The UK study found they would need 14,000 the same
size (120 Mwhr) as Sth Aus's at L600,000 each.

Actually batteries are not getting much better. A Uni group in the US
did a study of the element tables and all combinations and they came
to the conclusion that we have the best combinations.

Ah Jayb, it is a worry that the politicians are not taking the problem
seriously.
It now appears that the 24% (50% labour) Paris agreement reduction has
to be applied to agriculture which means 600,000 (1.1 million) have
to be culled from our dairies. Some 17 million sheep have to be culled also.

No suggestion (yet) that 24% (50%) of people will have to be culled !
The refusal to act to have some new coal fired stations built is just
plain madness.
From today it would be about four years to build a new one.
We have a shortage NOW ! All these new migrants will not be bringing
their own electricity with them.

To have such an illogical approach to electricity generation is not
a viable management policy. How many Megawatts will the NEG generate ?

Frankly the sanity of our politicians has to be in question.

The one third cut in my power costs feed back panels bought with them, the black out proof and lighting battery back up separate system bought was great too, mate VK2KKZ Bazz, now lost to dementia, ran in the end a stand alone system that never let him down

Trump has made huge strides in a short period of time. Hopefully he will get a second term resulting in Paris agreement jihad. It does not look like we are going to get anyone with the courage to name the gw fraud it is in Government any time soon. Pity Malcolm Roberts is gone.

Yes Belly, stand alone domestic systems can pay off.
I have a 1 kw system here which does produce a small discount on the
bill. A friend has a large system and at certain times of the year
wipes out his bill.
Not sure if you install backup battery if it works out financially.
A lot would depend on how long the battery lasts.
Nickle Iron will last 40 years plus and can be refurbished by anyone.

I cannot install any more cells here, no room on the roof.
Read the meter at different times of day.
Summer 10 am 800w, 12 am 1050 w, 2pm 800w, 4pm 400w, 5pm 200w
Winter 10 am 700w, 12 am 950 w, 2pm 650w, 4pm 6w.
and therein lies the problem with solar panels, very important
to have automatic sun tracking both time of day and time of year.
73 Bazz

Belly, did you hear that Bill Hall VK2XT died, aged 105 !

runner,

Malcolm Roberts is gone?

How can you tell?

Bazz did not hear that my thanks, I have 4kw on the roof 6 80 amp battery's running from half a kg, considering more club down to less than ten and struggling,

OK Belly, If I had the roof space I would put up more.
You might be interested in this news on electric car charging.

Quote from Oil Price publication.
BP to buy UK electric vehicle charging company. BP (NYSE: BP) said it
plans to acquire the largest EV recharging company in the UK. BP will
pay $170 million for Chargemaster, which runs 6,500 charging points in
the UK. The acquisition is the latest sign that the oil majors are
beginning to plan for a post-oil world, diversifying their assets as a
hedge against peak oil demand.
End quote

Shell has also announced that it is planning to exit the oil industry.
The problem the majors are having is that new exploration and development
is not producing profitable fields.
Shell also announced that world wide all Shell stations, starting in
the UK will have chargers.

Yes if we both look back at the world as it was at our birth and see it as it is now, we will see what great changes will come, in time in my view wireless will be far better and used much more than the hard wire NBN we have now.

Dear Belly,

The greatest rage amongst my grandchildren is -
iPads. Looks like I'm know what they're getting for
Christmas.

Think it may be time I lurched back on subject,This weekend my party has its annual weekend in Sydney, went there myself in my last years at work,a lesson can be learned about the last week and the subject of this thread, if we are BRAVE see Bill got it wrong! solidarity, keeping your mouth shut and saying it is not so? blind stupidity!as in my view my party gets closer to becoming the government, I would ask some to note,hiding the truth only convinces others you can not be trusted, it defames Joe and Jane average, screams at them we do not think you know! I want from our next PM a promise a lesson has been learned and to remind others sweeping the dust under the carpet never works

Dear Belly,

I thought that Bill Shorten handled himself rather well.
However, of course his opposition is going to try to
politicise everything. That's the name of the game.
Look at what they're doing to Pauline Hanson's flip flops
as they call them. And how many times have both parties
had a change of heart as new information came to light?

cont'd...

Dear Belly,

Bill Shorten has actually gone up in my estimation because
of his latest decision. To me, it proves that he's not just
able to lead, but he listens as well which is an important
quality in a leader. And as Chris Bowen pointed out -
the decision " struck the right balance. It respects tax
cuts which have been legislated and implemented."

Mr Shorten accepted that stopping at 10 million would have
created more confusion and uncertainty. It now means that
Labor will not go into the next election promising to increase
company tax that has already fallen.

Yet a clear distinction will remain between Labor and the
Coalition, because Labor will not back the further round of
cuts that would see the corporate rate eventually fall to 25%.

Labor remains committed to scrapping tax to the "big end of
town."

Foxy as you know I knew Bill Shorten, he was the head of my union both while I served it in the workplace, and after as an official.
The Bill I know/knew had a Gough like BRILLIANCE I watched and hoped for much, if that man still exists he best make it known, see he over rides his own party machine in Capts calls, he got it wrong,*he had no choice but to back down* still waters run deep, I and those like me, would follow him to hell,it is not us he must speak to, but that middle Australia that has not yet seen him as he was and can be again,
Only they can increase his personal standing in the polls.
Question, do I best serve my party by seeing wrong and saying nothing? or is that the cowards way? constant improvement comes after we see our mistakes never by ignoring them

seeing wrong and saying nothing?
Belly,
Most people have their say on election day. Both major parties go bad after getting comfortable hence the musical chairs Governments we have. Imagine if we ever got a Government that does things right, elections would be a mere formality. Oppositions would become irrelevant.

In june 1987 Len Monday, a proper Labor politician said “At the moment we have the Senate full of lawyers & doctors, solicitors and economists and the actual people haven’t got a voice in the Parliament “

How times haven't changed !

For those interested in energy I find this link useful...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density_Extended_Reference_Table

Personally, I like that backflip Bill is Labor's leader, as he is doing more than Malcolm to ensure that Labor stays in opposition.

Bill has taken Labor sharply further left and away from the mainstream workers that Labor used to represent. The company tax cuts are very popular, which is why the shadow cabinet rolled him.

Last election MT avoided negative advertising, while Labor went full steam ahead. I think that this coming election there will be more focus on Bill's shady past.

Thanks Shadow Minister! I needed that! cold bleak day, have not had my coffee yet hat winter, needed that laugh to get me going! individual you have the bull by the horns,not an unusual position old mate, see my words are meant to brutally attack a beast that lurks in the blood stream of some of my fellow travellers, it can be seen by its side effects, loss of public support, the weird feeling only our leaders know any thing about any thing, it is damaging and truth is the only known antidote, it is? solidarity! a foul beast that aims to hide the truth and has no other use, job done, back on track but Bill may have trouble sitting down for some time after his last caucus meeting, caucus? don't get me started on that!