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The Forum > General Discussion > The Politicisation And Emasculation of Our Defence Force

The Politicisation And Emasculation of Our Defence Force

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The media hasn't had a lot to say about the new Chief of Army's amazing ban on 'aggressive' symbols worn by members of our defence forces, nor about 'nicer' methods of legally killing people; probably because the lefty media approves of a panysfied, feminised ADF incapable of fighting its way out of a wet paper bag.

Now, a serving soldier has contacted 2GB's Ben Fordham to say that his company commander intends to spend $16,000 of other people's money replacing shirts and objects bearing these 'aggressive' symbols. The cost of 'cleaning up' the logos and symbols is expected to be around $2 million.

Gawd help us if these lady-boys and ladies are ever called on to defend Australia. I wonder how much time Lt. General Campbell spends thinking about acutal soldiering and defence. He is also into such vital things as 'white male priviledge' and gender politics.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:53:48 AM
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Clearly Lt. Gen. Campbell is just worried about being the baddies, like poor old Hans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 24 May 2018 11:28:21 AM
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Campbell is only banning inappropriate
symbols that have no connection with military
uniforms.

Symbols like - the skull and crossbones - standing for
maritime outlaws, the phantom or punisher - standing
for vigilantes, the grim reaper - standing for
the bringer of death.

These sorts of
symbols are not part of military uniforms.

The symbols belong more rightly with bikie gangs and other
sorts of clubs. Not our military - which already have
appropriate
uniforms and insignias. Why tarnish the uniforms with
childish and inappropriate symbols that demean the uniforms
of our military?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 24 May 2018 3:13:42 PM
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Foxy,

You are a bit deficient on history,

"In September 1914, the British submarine HMS E9 successfully torpedoed the German cruiser SMS Hela.[44] Remembering Wilson's statements, commanding officer Max Horton instructed his submariners to manufacture a Jolly Roger, which was flown from the submarine as she entered port.[43][44] Each successful patrol saw Horton's submarine fly an additional Jolly Roger until there was no more room for flags, at which point Horton had a large Jolly Roger manufactured, onto which symbols indicating E9's achievements were sewn.[44] A small number of other submarines adopted the practice:[44] HMS E12 flew a red flag with the skull and crossbones on return from a foray into the Dardanelles in June 1915,[45] and the first known photograph of the practice was taken in July 1916 aboard HMS H5.[46]

The practice restarted during World War II. In October 1941, following a successful patrol by HMS Osiris, during which she sank the Italian destroyer Palestro the submarine returned to Alexandria, but was ordered to remain outside the boom net until the motorboat assigned to the leader of the 1st Submarine Flotilla had come alongside.[45][47] The flotilla leader wanted to recognise the boat's achievement, so had a Jolly Roger made and delivered to Osiris.[47](I) After this, the commanders of submarine flotillas began to hand out the flags to successful submarines.[47] Although some sources claim that all British submarines used the flag,[48] the practice was not taken up by those submarine commanders who saw it as boastful and potentially inaccurate, as sinkings could not always be confirmed.[44] During the war, British submarines were entitled to fly the Jolly Roger on the day of their return from a successful patrol: it would be hoisted as the boat passed the boom net, and remain raised until sunset.[47]

Polish submarine ORP Sokół returning to base in 1944. A Jolly Roger flag and two captured Nazi flags are flying from the periscope mast"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_Roger
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 24 May 2018 4:05:40 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

It appears that what happened in 1915 and the 1940s
under conditions of war - does not apply
in the everyday functions of today's
military.

Do you know of any more recent and current behaviour?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 24 May 2018 4:32:53 PM
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Next they'll say blokes standing up to pee is sexist and gender specific and contains microaggressions so all men will be reeducated to go to the toilet sitting down.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 24 May 2018 4:43:45 PM
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Not really, but apparently Campbell does.

Try this for a bit of tradition in the Australian forces.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Skull_and_crossbones_(military_symbol)#/media/File:2-6th_cavalry_commando_-_new_guinea_-_beer.jpg

The Skull and Crossbones use has a long tradition in military circles and long predates bikie gangs.

"It appears that what happened in 1915 and the 1940s
under conditions of war - does not apply
in the everyday functions of today's
military."

You are joking now, I hope!!
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 24 May 2018 4:45:31 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

I'll read yours if you read mine:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-28/death-symbol-ban-not-political-correctness/9696674
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 24 May 2018 4:52:55 PM
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"so all men will be reeducated to go to the toilet sitting down."

http://www.informationng.com/2013/06/europe-to-ban-men-from-urinating-while-standing-3.html

They say comedy is dead because its impossible to think of a ludicrous social scenario that the 'progressive' left haven't already staked out.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 24 May 2018 5:14:50 PM
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Come on Foxy.

You can't expect adult human beings to read ABC propaganda, that is going too far.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 24 May 2018 5:15:11 PM
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I read your's Foxy,

"But most of the banned symbols are imported from overseas. These banned totems have very little, if any, Australian lineage."

Obviously, the author of that didn't read the 2nd link that I gave you.
Here's the caption to the photo.
"AWM Caption: KARAWOP, NEW GUINEA, 1945-09-18. THE SKULL AND CROSS-BONE FLAG, THE PRIDE OF 2/6 CAVALRY COMMANDO REGIMENT. ON EVERY BEER ISSUE DAY THE BOYS CROSS BOTTLES BEFORE THE FLAG. IDENTIFIED PERSONNEL ARE:- CPL K.E. WILLS (1); CPL C.T. CRAWLEY (2); SGT J.H. SIMPSON (3); WO 2 M.J. HODER (4); CPL O.A. POMROY (5)."

(AWM, Australian War Museum.)

It was easy enough to find, maybe it was a little inconvenient for the author.

Perhaps the "Rising Sun" emblem will also have to go, symbolizing, as it does, offensive weapons of war.

Then there is the SAS badge, golly! a dagger, now that symbolises death if ever anything did. Guess it'll have to be Campbelled as well.

Hasbeen,
Occasionally one has to make a sacrifice!!

.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 24 May 2018 5:43:51 PM
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Whitlam became PM because of removing conscription. The war heroes since are being picked according to their computer skills in an office some distance from where the real heroes toil.
Bring back a National Service with the option of transferring to the armed forces if the aptitude is there. If nothing else a national Service will go a long way towards the gimme,gimme mentality which is killing this Nation.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 24 May 2018 5:49:17 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

The author of the link I gave, C. August Elliott is
a former soldier. So your brushing his comments aside
as ABC's "propaganda" is not worthy of you.

Dear Is Mise,

Taken from the link cited earlier:

"Weighed against all the facts, Lieutenant General Campbell's
directive has little to do with political correctness or
avoiding offence and everything to do with a strong leader
engineering a culture of discipline that is appropriate for a military force in the 21st Century."

"In the end, the difference between an Army that marches into
battle beneath a symbol like the Rising Sun and an Army that
marches into battle beneath symbols of vigilantism, lawlessness,
extreme militarism, and death is the difference between a force
that values professionalism and obedience to the law and a
force that defines itself by its own violence."

"The difference between an Army and a "death cult," if you will."

"It's not difficult to guess which fighting force the Australian
public would prefer to have represent them on operations abroad."

"Lieutenant General Campbell should be applauded for setting the
tone for his future tenure as Chief of the Defence Force."

Here is another link with comments from Neil James, Executive
Director of the Australian Defence Association and James M.
Dubik a retired Lieutenant General of the US Army.

http://theconversation.com/banning-soldiers-displaying-death-symbols-is-about-the-right-military-mindset-not-political-correctness-95655
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 24 May 2018 6:38:21 PM
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Foxy,

"In the end, the difference between an Army that marches into
battle beneath a symbol like the Rising Sun and an Army that
marches into battle beneath symbols of vigilantism, lawlessness,
extreme militarism, ..."

Ir the Rising Sun badge is not a symbol of extreme militarism, then what is it?

Likewise, the SAS dagger, if a dagger is not a symbol of death then what is it?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 24 May 2018 7:21:17 PM
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Here is a selection of fighter decals from as recently as the gulf war on modern fighter jets.

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/review.php?rid=402

Notably, they include the skull and crossbones.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 24 May 2018 7:35:31 PM
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According to Muammar Gaddafi war is a waste of time & it looks like he was right. So, stop worrying about emasculation of our Defence Force.

Google - Muammar Gaddafi quotes;

We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. there are signs that Allah will grant victory in Europe-without swords, without guns, without conquest-will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.
Muammar Gaddafi
Posted by individual, Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:00:54 PM
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Individual,

How's Muammar Gaddafi doing these days?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:12:49 PM
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If seems that we should be consulting the ABC for military advice now.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:23:58 PM
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One of these days the stuff will hit the fan. When it does a nice gentle politically correct defence force won't cut the mustard. It doesn't take gentlemen to defend the nation, the women of the nation, & even the politically correct milk sops of pretend men. It takes hard ruthless bastads, that are prepared to kill in any way they can, & probably die trying.

As a fleet air arm pilot I knew I was the most expendable of the defence force. I knew I had a 50% chance of my plane or my ship going down, & having a couple of days dying alone in the sea. I did it because I loved my country & felt it was definitely worth defending.

Would I do it today, no way. About half the people in the country are not worth anyone's life defending, & the defence force with it's current leadership is virtually designed to kill most of our men, because it is so dysfunctional. D did not mind taking a chance of getting killed, but there is no way even our best could survive with the current structure & leadership.

I hope those who are forcing this politically correct hog wash into place, & loosing many of the fighting type of men in the process, don't end up wishing they had not done so.

Continued.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:48:56 PM
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Continued.

I don't know any service pilots today, so I have no idea of how good the blokes or the women are. I don't know how much they trust in the ability of other pilots.

I flew with a fair few other pilots in my day, & they were all well above very competent, & many were brilliant. It is a calling that attracts the very competent, & both the selection process & the training weeds out all but the very best. I can only hope this is applied to the ladies as stringently as it is to the blokes.

I do know I raced cars, up to formula 1, & most things below that level. I raced a lot of men, many of them not much good, but quite a few who were brilliant. I raced a few women, most of them not much good. None were brilliant, & there was only one who I thought was really competent. We encouraged the ladies as it was good to see them having a go, but we did worry about them. Race cars, like jets, are not very forgiving things, & we did not want to see them get hurt. I don't know why, but it always feels worse for a lady to be hurt, than a bloke.

I certainly hope that any ladies flying our jets, or in control of any other equipment are at least as competent as that one racing driver. If not, when we again have to fight, & that is what defence forces are for, others are going to die because of it.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:56:52 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Blah blah blah. Bulldust.

There was certainly no way the teenage crap that some in the armed forces have gotten up to recently would have been tolerated in the navy during your time nor during my father's.

Cambell is ex-SAS and has been awarded the DSC along with the Commander of the Legion of Merit from the Americans. He was Abbott's pick to oversee Operation Sovereign Borders and by all accounts you think it was a raging bloody success. He is going to be Chief of Australia's armed forces in July.

He would normally be your kind of poster boy and seems like the kind of bloke who if he sees a problem will fix it. He felt this was an issue that needed addressing and did something about it now you and the other armchair warriors are pissing all over him.

As an Australian I want someone in charge who will deliver us a professional and highly trained defense force. He seems to fit the bill. If there are some who are so fond of grim reaper cartoons that they would prefer to leave than park them then they need to clear off.

And you need to back off and have some respect for someone dedicated to having professionalism as a hallmark of our forces.

Mug.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 24 May 2018 11:22:58 PM
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How's Muammar Gaddafi doing these days?

is mise,
I suspect he's up there enjoying the company of 72 virgins & watching the hordes crawl all over Europe & also making their way to Australia. Lucy Turnbull reckons there's plenty of room for them in Sydney.
What do you think, was he right or wrong ? Let us know asap please.

ps. I always wondered if the leftist females were such virgins in another life ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 25 May 2018 7:11:10 AM
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//I suspect he's up there enjoying the company of 72...//

...raisins. Dried grapes are the reward that await Islamic martyrs in paradise, not virgins. The 72 virgins things is made up (well I suppose technically it's all made up, but the 72 virgins thing is even more made up than the rest if you catch my drift); presumably invented by those looking to radicalise young Muslims as something to sweeten the whole suicide-bombing deal. By perpetuating the myth, you're effectively doing their work for them.

//ps. I always wondered if the leftist females were such virgins in another life ?//

Even if we are going to pretend it's virgins, their sex is never stated (because raisins don't have a sex). Until I found out about the raisins thing, I always assumed that any reasonable God with a sense of humour would 'reward' them with the eternal company of 72 morbidly obese World of Warcraft nerds (the old 'be careful what you wish for' gag). Like this guy, but less attractive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGXLs8j4D64
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 25 May 2018 8:21:31 AM
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Tony Lavis,
I'm just about certain that was a soldier that got emasculated during the Rudd/Gillard years, probably a Penny Wong recruit who could see that he'd make a good vertebrae in Labor's spine.
Posted by individual, Friday, 25 May 2018 8:46:20 AM
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Individual,

I think that Gadaffi was right for once.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 25 May 2018 9:39:27 AM
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Hasbeen,

Dead right and I, like you, wouldn't fight for what Australia is turning into (has turned?) either.
I meet a lot of current serving members and ones who have recently served and they ain't a happy lot.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 25 May 2018 9:42:59 AM
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//Tony//

Oh great, another retard who can't spell. I blame the schools. Where is the 'y' in Toni, yndyvydual?

//I'm just about certain that was a soldier that got emasculated during the Rudd/Gillard years, probably a Penny Wong recruit//

Dude, I'm pretty sure that's the Hon. George Christensen MP, member for Dawson. And I don't think his emasculation stems so much from previous Labor governments as it does from his massive bitch-tits, like Bob in 'Fight Club'.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 25 May 2018 9:58:55 AM
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I agree with Hasbeen and Is Mise. Who would want to fight for what Australia has become! We might as well go to the beach and leave everything to the ABC, Google and Wikipedia.

I note that AcidReflux is using the arguments he is so fond of telling other posters they should be using, like: “Blah blah blah. Bulldust” and “mug”.

Campbell doesn't pass the character test ; his eyes are too close together, and you can't be sure who or what he is looking at
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 May 2018 10:42:38 AM
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//Campbell doesn't pass the character test ; his eyes are too close together//

Is that how it works? Because if it is, I may have discovered the most trustworthy man on Earth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr7Ue9K3zN4

German by birth, but one-eighth hammerhead shark by descent.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 25 May 2018 11:13:36 AM
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Hi there STEELEREDUX...

You're becoming very insulting lately calling our fellow contributor HASBEEN a 'mug'! He served in the Naval Air Wing, as a pilot, which takes an awful amount of skill & dedication, to land a fighter Aircraft on a pitching deck of an A/C Carrier at sea. And whether he's right or otherwise, about this highly thought of Officer General CAMPBELL is a matter of opinion. Which he's entitled, right or wrong. The fact he was CO of a SAS Sqn. means nothing, such positions ('Ruperts') are not required to reach SAS standards, as they're essentially Command and Administrative appointments. At Nui Dat we were billeted at the base of 'SAS Hill and had a lot to do with the troopers based there all good blokes.

Mr CAMPBELL was awarded the DSC essentially for Command & Leadership, it's not an award for bravery in the field. It can be won from 'Behind the Lines' in a Command Bunker, even as far back as Canberra itself, but not at the sharp end. I'm in no way denigrating the gentleman's award, I'm just highlighting it's nothing like an MC, DSO or similar, which are awarded for bravery. Our current GG does hold a decoration for bravery the Military Cross (MC) which he won in Vietnam I believe? You wanna talk 'military leadership' in the field, I'll certainly tell you all about it, if you're interested?

Your phase 'blah blah' apropos HASBEEN'S Naval Aviation record, is really insulting STEELEREDUX and I never thought you of all people, would denigrate an Australian Serviceman in such a manner. Moreover I know you do have sufficient literary skill to successfully argue your point without resorting to such language. Perhaps like me Dementia has begun to rear it's ugly head with you as well?

I also agree with both IS MISE and HASBEEN, some of the youngsters we got in society today, I certainly wouldn't wish them to accompany me, on a trip 'outside the wire' in SV! I suspect none of us would come back?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 25 May 2018 11:35:05 AM
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Where is the 'y' in Toni, yndyvydual?
Appologies,
Antoinette (Toni) I thought you were a bloke.
Posted by individual, Friday, 25 May 2018 11:41:47 AM
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"...raisins. Dried grapes are the reward that await Islamic martyrs in paradise, not virgins."

Nup. The raisin claim was made up to make Islam look less bonkers. Its claimed that the word 'houri' (virgin) was used when they meant 'hur' (white raisin). But, contra your claims, the Koran does describe the attributes of the houri eg wide and beautiful eyes, hairless except the eye brows and the head, voluptuous, round breasts which are not inclined to hang, Beautiful,
hymen unbroken by sexual intercourse, non-menstruating / non-urinating/ non-defecating and childfree, never dissatisfied.

Now I've come across (if you'll forgive the expression) some damn good looking dried fruit in my time, but never one I'd say had voluptuous breasts or unbroken hymen.

The whole 72 virgin thing wasn't made up just for modern terrorists, but also to encourage the original arab warriors to fight that much harder to conquer allah's enemies.

Most religions and societies have some myth or belief system that tries to convince soldiers that death in battle will be to their advantage eg Leonidas looked forward to dining in Hades.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:37:35 PM
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Hi there FOXY...

Make no mistake FOXY, the Army is a (disciplined) death cult. The first duty of a soldier is to kill, if he's incapable of doing so, then he's not a soldier. I didn't say he had to like it, but he must be prepared to do it.

You ever wonder why so many of us came back with PTSD? Not because the possibility we might be killed. Rather, because it was us that had to do the killing. As an example if I may...?

We procured a couple of 870P with folding stocks, extendable mags. etc. Which we loaded with 12g flechettes ctg's. designed to shred one's target of his largest organ, his skin. The first instance, the target was hit almost shoulder high laterally, with a total wound diameter of about 17 inches at a range of between 5 & 7 metres traversing through very thick foliage. The target was horribly damaged, almost no shoulder remaining, nor an arm, massive (shredding). 870P with flechettes, proved to be a a great weapon for use in heavy bush. There was so much blood cascading from the target, until his heart finally gave way, and thereafter it just seeped out from then on.

Another weapon we used extensively in SV was the M18A1 & M18 'Claymore' anti-personnel mine. Great for booby traps set at tunnel entrances we'd detected. Came fitted in a small webbing pack, & relatively light in weight, all up 5lbs +- including 'clacker'(M57 Firing device & wiring) plus M40 test set and blasting caps.

It was designed to take out multiple targets around waist height with literally hundreds of metal ball bearings coming out at massive speed. In effect, almost decapitating your target in half. It had a 50 metre absolute killing zone, in an ever increasing Arc. It's effect on the human torso was remarkable, at the midriff area. Surprisingly, death wasn't always instantaneous, the screams of agony were palpable, the only relief was to despatch the unfortunate fellow with a 5.56mm.

Say a 'hello' to the realities of War Foxy.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 25 May 2018 1:49:46 PM
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o sung wu,

Good information, wasted on someone like AcidReflux. I don't know that that the General has ever been 'shot over'; can you enlighten us on that?
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 May 2018 1:51:51 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for the information.

From what I can gather - what Lieutenant General Campbell
is objecting to is the inappropriate use of death symbolism.
From what I've read he is trying to engineer a culture
of discipline that is appropriate for a military force in the
21st Century. He values professionalism and obedience to the
law. A force that doesn't define itself by its own violence.

I can't see many Australians objecting to such a military force.
Setting a higher tone for his future tenure as Chief of the
Defence Force I don't think is a bad thing.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 25 May 2018 2:20:50 PM
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Is Mise and Individual,
The Quote was not from Gadaffi but from the bloke below.

Algerian president Houari Boumedienne "One day millions of men will leave Arabia to go to Europe. And they will not go there as friends. They will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory."

former President H B 1932--1978

I don't know when he made the statement but is now coming to fruition.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 25 May 2018 2:27:01 PM
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//Appologies,
Antoinette (Toni) I thought you were a bloke.//

I am a bloke. Toni is short for Antonio. I didn't choose it. But since there is no 'y' anywhere in my name, it doesn't make much sense to go adding an extraneous one when I contract my name.

I'd appreciate it you wouldn't either, because phonetic spelling annoys me. Night is not spelt 'nite', through is not spelt 'thru', and Toni is not spelt 'Tony', even if you are rubbish at English.

//the Koran does describe the attributes of the houri eg wide and beautiful eyes, hairless except the eye brows and the head, voluptuous, round breasts which are not inclined to hang, Beautiful,
hymen unbroken by sexual intercourse, non-menstruating / non-urinating/ non-defecating and childfree, never dissatisfied.//

Well, most of those could still apply to the WOW nerd model of virgin I described. Maybe not the beautiful part, although eye of the beholder and all that.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 25 May 2018 3:13:16 PM
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I’ve come into this late & it has only just arrived in my computer today.

I’ve just come back from the 1 R.A.R. Coral Reunion at Lavarack Barracks in Townsville. Approximately 850 Veterans of the Battle & about 150 Timor, Somalia & some of us first Tour blokes (65/66). A wonderful four days were had by all.

Speaking to the CO, The RSM & the Diggers. Off the record they are all disappointed by the latest directive. In their view it is another Moral destroying decision by men who should know better. It’s done to appease the Politically Correct Leftist element in today’s society. Unfortunately, it’s having the reverse effect on the moral of the Troops. I suggested that maybe the next directive would be to replace their weapons with Feather Swords. I got a wry grin from the CO & the RSM but a definite from the Troops. “It looks like it’s going that way, after all you have to be careful not to hurt anyone.”

Officers are now refusing to take any risks, just encase something might go wrong & they have to take the blame. An example given by one Platoon Sgt. The observed about 40 Taliban using a building for a week for sleeping. They made a plan to raid the building just on first light & capture all 40 or so. The plan was to land the Platoon 12 k from the site & proceed by foot & arrive & be in position before first light. Their OC refused to give them the Chopper support needed to carry out the Op. In case something went wrong. Eventually they got the choppers but 3 hours after the time they had planned for. They arrived at the hut after first light & observed all of the bad guys leaving. They captured only two.
cont
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 25 May 2018 3:18:45 PM
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cont
That’s the effect that Military Command is having on the Military Commanders on the Ground. The other thing is, with Communications these days. They must record, by direct link video, to some Military Lawyers, somewhere, watching the unfolding action back in the safety of their office & only act on their advice. This is so sad.

Steelie: Cambell is ex-SAS and has been awarded the DSC along with the Commander of the Legion of Merit from the Americans.

Yes, lots of senior Officers get awards for actions they were never at. Long Tan is a good example.

ismise: I meet a lot of current serving members and ones who have recently served and they ain't a happy lot.

Yep, tis so true.

OSW: The fact he was CO of a SAS Sqn. means nothing, such positions ('Ruperts') are not required to reach SAS standards, as they're essentially Command and Administrative appointments.

Yep, so true.

Foxy: what Lieutenant General Campbell is objecting to is the inappropriate use of death symbolism.

Why is it , “inappropriate.”

Foxy: From what I've read he is trying to engineer a culture of discipline that is appropriate for a military force in the 21st Century.

Well the real facts are that it’s having the opposite effect.

It’s a good thing that these “Arm Chair Generals” don’t leave the safety of the wire. Their chances of coming back would be nil. Accidents happen, you know.

I believe Blamey had a luck escape when he addressed the Troops who fought a fighting retreat against the Japanese on the Kokoda Track. Calling them cowards for retreating. Some of those men had only six weeks in the Army before they were thrown in against Battle Hardened Japs.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 25 May 2018 3:22:58 PM
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Hey mhaze,
Nice article find earlier, cheers.
People probably think a lot of things that I say are ridiculous, but I think I'm right far more often than I get things wrong.

Time usually proves me right.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 25 May 2018 3:55:30 PM
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Hi there TTBN...

General CAMPBELL'S military achievements are a bit hard to tell, from his Photograph TTBN. To be fair he's been around, apparently saw some combat, as he's got the 'Combat Clasp' the copper coloured badge situated above the riband of his medal ribbons. He's got the Aust. Active Service Medal 1975 - Most appear to be campaign awards; what we called the 'EBM' (Every 'Buggers' Medals). That said, he's definitely been around as I mentioned above.

I dunno mate what they're trying to do with todays Army. If they keep chipping away at the old time traditions and conventions that have existed in the ARA since WWl, they'll manage to cut the very heart out of the military forces in quick time. Now they've compulsorily imposed female soldiers, on the ranks of the male regulars, it's just another hurdle we must ensure we don't trip over, lest we run foul of serious military discipline.

Please don't get me wrong, there are many areas within the Australian Armed Forces where females can and do perform really well. Even in front line operations like pilots, flying everything from rotor wing to fast attack A/C. There are many important rolls for them in the Army as well. But lets not 'trash' all the old traditions that have been with us for 'yonks', and have served us all very well, for nearly a century. Entirely for the sake of this damned Political Correctness. Thanks TTBN.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 25 May 2018 5:21:04 PM
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Foxy,

How are you going with that militaristic, so-called, Rising Sun?

All those nasty death-dealing swords and bayonets, once dripping with human blood, and that SAS Dagger badge, a symbol of stealthy attack and the unsuspected lethal stab or slitting of the throat, truly a symbol of death.

They'll soon be Campbelled.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 25 May 2018 5:41:01 PM
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“It’s done to appease the Politically Correct Leftist element in today’s society” (Jayb).

Undoubtedly. It would be amusing to see the lefties scatter if their influence ever got to the stage where the military could not protect the silly sods.

I'm reminded again of reading that Australia would have been invaded in World War 2 if the entire top brass hadn't been wiped out in a plane crash at some stage before the war, so like today's lot were they.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 May 2018 5:51:48 PM
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ttbn,

"I'm reminded again of reading that Australia would have been invaded in World War 2 if the entire top brass hadn't been wiped out in a plane crash at some stage before the war, so like today's lot were they."

No one intended to invade Australia in WWII.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 25 May 2018 7:13:35 PM
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If the deceased no-hopers had been in charge, Japan may very well decided to invade Australia.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 May 2018 7:32:50 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

Good to hear from you.

Of course your admonishment caused me to review my post. I will admit to reading Hasbeen's first section and I'm not sure I bothered with the second but that is a small matter.

He wrote in the first;

“I knew I had a 50% chance of my plane or my ship going down, & having a couple of days dying alone in the sea.”

I'm normally pretty forgiving when servicemen guild the lily. My father regularly had naval mates around and when they were telling some over the top embellishments he would turn to me and give a quiet wink.

What Hasbeen did next meant he was not afforded that courtesy. He basically insinuated that anyone who would be prepared to lay down their lives for this country as it is now was a “mug”. I found it offensive to those personnel currently serving here and overseas. Hence that was the label I directed at him.

If you care to review my exchanges with Hasbeen you will see I attempt to end with an label which reflects what he is impugning for others.

I can assure you these are not throwaway slurs,

The fact that you thought I was disrespecting someones armed service is a concern however and I will endevour to more clearly delineate my responses in the future.

Finally thank you for taking the time to assess Cambell's record particularly his combat clasp. there are many here who want to tear the bloke down but your even handed approach is welcome.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 25 May 2018 7:42:27 PM
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Is Mise: No one intended to invade Australia in WWII.

Maybe so, but land, they did.

100 Japanese Marines landed at Cromarty. 1 dead 3 wounded the rest captured. My Father in-law escorted them by train to Brisbane from Townsville.

100 Japanese Marines landed between Karunba/Nornanton & Burketown. One survived. He wrote a book about his experiences. Apparently he lost men every day. Speared & never saw who did it. The Aboriginals left signs for him to get back to the coast where he was picked up but a Sub.

I have heard of another landing near Broome, but I don't know anything about that one.

There may have been a lot more, Who knows. These things were kept very quite during the War. I only heard about the Cromarty one from the Coast Watcher who reported them. Jack Statham, After that they took him of Coast Watching & he worked at Garbutt hosing out the Rear Tail Gunners remains from their turrets of their B24's.

I do know that the Jap Subs used to rewater at Cape Upstart according to my uncles who lived there during the War. The Japs would BBQ on the Beach & bring them Japanese Whisky. Many of these Bottles were still around on the Cape when I was a kid. There were hundreds. They were a square squat shape with black labels & Japanese writing all over them.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 25 May 2018 7:46:21 PM
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Steelie: Finally thank you for taking the time to assess Cambell's record particularly his combat clasp. there are many here who want to tear the bloke down but your even handed approach is welcome.

You only have to be in the Theater to receive that clasp. Cambell never went outside the wire. neither did Jackson or Graham in Vietnam. Jackson was my CO in 2 RAR Pentropic at Enoggera & Graham was my DC at Canungra when the School of Jungle Warfare was there. 64/65.

No-one is tearing down his Army Service Record Per Se. Just his leftist PC appeasing approach now he's in the Political arena. He just went from One hundred to Aero with the Troops. I guess the Left only want Pansies in the Army.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 25 May 2018 7:58:51 PM
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Do try to grow up Steely.

In the Pacific war it was estimated that 38% of air crew lost survived a ditching of a damaged aircraft, or parachuted into the sea, but were never found.

Those near Honiara were often seen going down & many were rescued. almost 60% of pilots downed were picked up. In other areas most that were lost simply never returned.

Today with more deadly weapons, most would not survive the aircraft, but in my day, you were more likely to drown than be killed by the weapon that downed your plane.

At Midway for example, because of the victory, & the availability of PBYs, many who ran out of fuel, or had to ditch damaged planes that could not be kept in the air, were picked up over the next 2 days. In the battle of the Coral sea, they were never found.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 25 May 2018 8:38:06 PM
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I have been second in line quite a number of times at the Supermarket checkout to Navy & Customs boat crew shopping. It's a real eye-opener when you see what's in their trolleys.
I just wished I could live half as well on the taxpayers account.
I mean, many people serve this country in their work without travel entitlements etc. & most of them have to buy their own food. Is it any wonder the boys are getting emasculated getting it rather easy in the front yard ?
The personnel in war zones I'm sure are doing it many times tougher with no chance of emusculation, that happens when they get home where they're not appreciated by those they protect.
Posted by individual, Friday, 25 May 2018 8:47:58 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Come on mate. You may well be acknowledging that the 50% mark you initially claimed was bunkum as I clearly stated, however that is not the issue and you know it.

This is.

Are our current serving personnel 'mugs' for being prepared to lay down their lives for a country you are so dismissive of? Yes or no?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 25 May 2018 8:55:38 PM
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I have no problem with these wannabe Rambo's, these militaristic types, wanting to deck themselves out in some silly insignia's/paraphernalia, they can tattoo it on their foreheads for all I care, stupid as it maybe. I just get a wee bit concerned to think they are given guns and live ammunition to play with as well. This mans army, gaud how ridiculous!
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 25 May 2018 9:30:45 PM
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What about getting rid of the armed forces & engage mercenaries in the event of a blow-up. Would save a lot of money.
Paul1405 et al could just pay the mercenaries to protect them.
We need a Defence Force but not a Defence Farce solely designed for career mongers & wannabe heroes. A massive amount of our earnings goes into it all so, it's vital that every Dollar is made to work for the Nation not just a handful of look-at-me's.
The armed forces are extremely serious stuff & should not be allowed to be exploited for personal gain.
Let them go out & kick ass when & where it's needed because as the saying goes 'all is fair in love & war'. Never mind the useless do-gooders, lock them away.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 26 May 2018 7:02:19 AM
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individual, I see the need for a professional, disciplined, defence force. I am concerned with those who while serving, would undertake what I would term boyish behaviour, which is manifested by silly insignia. No place for Rambo wannabes in today's professional army. Lt. General Campbell is right in what he is doing.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 26 May 2018 7:40:27 AM
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paul1405: No place for Rambo wannabes in today's professional army. Lt. General Campbell is right in what he is doing.

The insignia is a combination of, Bravado, Warning, Company, Platoon & individual Hype. Most of them are borne of something that happened in Training.

Eg; D Company, 8 R.A.R. was a mountain goat on a Pogo Stick jumping over a mountain. This came about form an incident when the Company had to do a Company attack. 2 Platoon up in a straight line, CHQ behind them then the 3rd Platoon behind them in reserve.

Unfortunately the attack took place along the side of a mountain with multiple spurs running off the side of the mountain. The Company had to attack across the line of spurs.

Now a little imagination is required here. One side of the spur is about 50 metres high the other end is about 10 metres high the line stretches about 500 metres long & heavily timbered with low scrub. In an attack the line is to be kept straight & moving forward evenly. Do you see the problem?

It wasn't long before the whole attack was a shambles. The CO & the CSM going right off at the troops for not getting it right & keeping the line absolutely straight.

Most of the Diggers, including myself, had not long come back from Vietnam & were not used to being, F#9K#D around by officers & NCO's who didn't have a clue what they were doing. They were at odds ends to stop the laughing when it all eventually came totally undone. Hence the Mountain Goat on a Pogo Stick jumping over a Mountain. A stark reminder to the Battalions hierarchy. So you see insignia do serve a purpose.


The D Coy 8/9 R.A.R. insignia now is the head of a Mountain Sheep & they have no idea of it's origins. The other insignia is a set of dice, one on top of the other with the two 4's up. indicating the 4th Company of 8 R.A.R., D Coy.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 26 May 2018 8:31:10 AM
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Dear Paul1405,

This was the General's stance on repeat offenders of family violence;

“When one of my people engages in the illegal and ill-disciplined use of violence at home, in training or on exercise, my confidence in them to execute their duties lawfully and discriminately in circumstances of immense stress on the battlefield is deeply undermined,’’ he said.
“They are not living by the army’s values: I see cowardice, not courage, comfortable habit not the initiative to break the cycle. I don’t trust them to respect the innocent, the weak and the wounded, nor to serve the team rather than themselves.
“Perpetrators of family and domestic violence are fundamentally at odds with the meaning and profession of Australian soldiering.”

Pretty frank. He does appear to have quite a lot of respect through the ranks given the responses to his appointment before the latest news about symbols. I suspect that will continue.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 26 May 2018 8:39:26 AM
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Hey Individual,
Our soldiers become mercenaries anytime they step foot off the continent, sadly.
And they are used in that context.

Look at East Timor.
Were we 'peacekeepers' or oil theives?
http://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/exclusive-alexander-downer-spies-for-five-eyes-part-1,11113
Smedley Butler told us war is a racket, and it's as true today as it was then.
Sun Tzu spoke about a moral component needed for a nation and its people to endure a war, I'm not sure we (or the US for that matter) have this.
I'd be willing to pick up arms and defend this country from invaders if need be, (though I don't agree with both political parties following US foreign policy nor the trouble that brings) but my efforts to do so may depend on the righteousness of my government, and the front line will always end on my continent where the sand meets the sea.

'Are soldiers mugs'?
Well if they are asking themselves that question, then I think the questions already answered.
Regards the nation, where are we headed is it all about leftist agenda and the rights of everyone else?
Not sure it's worth fighting for anymore in that respect, after all the 'war on white people' and all that.

Maybe the question is better directed at us instead 'Are we mugs'?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 26 May 2018 8:54:26 AM
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Armchair Critic,
This is why I keep harping on about a Non-military National Service with the option of going into the military IF aptitude & mentality are proven beyond reasonable doubt.
After all, isn't it to be a Defence Force to defend this Nation ? There is already an internal war brewing it's just that too many can't see it. We really need to start getting organised & a National service will help immensely. Just don't let it slip your mind that Australias enemies are already speaking fluent "Strayn" & live here at our peril.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 26 May 2018 9:17:23 AM
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“Our soldiers become mercenaries anytime they step foot off the continent, sadly”.

Absolute rubbish! It takes a warped mind to come up with that one.

On Friday, Paul said: “I have no problem with these wannabe Rambo’s (sic)”. Today, the same Paul says: “No place for Rambo wannabes in today's professional army”. Make up your mind, sunshine!
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 26 May 2018 10:16:39 AM
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Steelie: Pretty frank. He does appear to have quite a lot of respect through the ranks given the responses to his appointment before the latest news about symbols. I suspect that will continue.

Unfortunately it hasn't. Moral has dropped to a low again, after the last pansy he replaced. The words he is using are to appease the PC & leftists. He knows that is not the case with the men.

Steelie are the troops supposed to be nice to the people that are trying to kill them. It seems like you think it's Ok tor them to kill out troops by any means they can devise but you want out troops to ask them for permission to fire back at them. Is that so?

Being somewhat of a Coward yourself, I suspect, I could never see you putting yourself in harms way to even protect your own family. Just going by your posts over the years. Always on the side of the Bad guys. Why is that?
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 26 May 2018 11:55:13 AM
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G'day there JAYB...

I reckon you're wasting your time trying to explain the origins of Army culture and/or folklore. unless you've worn a set of greens. It's hard for anybody to understand both the language and the import of that language. So critical in effectively conveying vital data especially during a contact situation.

As an aside, I could never understand why Long Tan got so much publicity, as opposed with FSB's Coral & Balmoral, where they lost *22 souls as opposed to *11 (I think) at Long Tan? I'm not juxtaposing a casualty count, rather the latter was a very concentrated well organised attack from the NVA (as was Long Tan). Nevertheless, if you were to ask the average member of the public about Coral & Balmoral, most would not have even heard of that important battle in Australia's, Vietnam War history.

**Sorry my memory is fading quite rapidly these days, with dementia setting in.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 26 May 2018 11:56:31 AM
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Hey ttbn,
"Absolute rubbish! It takes a warped mind to come up with that one."

Well I'm ok with the criticism, but I can't give you a free pass just for 'changing the issue'.
I wonder if you can actually back that statement up with simple logic and reason?

I'll make it really simple for you - black and white.

** Tell me how is it so that we are 'defending the nation' if the battleground is not on or within our borders? **

Which wars specifically represent 'Defending the Nation', rather than Australian taxpayers dollars used to fight other peoples wars?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 26 May 2018 12:20:38 PM
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Individual,

"Let them go out & kick ass..."

That's animal cruelty.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 26 May 2018 12:24:36 PM
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It's a matter of historical record that Japan never intended to invade Australia.
The Japanese Navy was all for it and made a proposal which was thrown out by the Army and Government.

There was no need because, after Hitler's win in Europe and the defeat of the USA, Australia would simply have had to do as it was told.

There is plenty on the Net.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 26 May 2018 12:38:52 PM
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AC,

I object to you calling the ADF 'mercenaries'; they cannot pick and choose, they follow orders. But I agree that protecting our nation by going to foreign countries is bullshite. The place for them is home, here, on our streets. They should be protecting us from the Muslims our stupid politicians brought here without sense or reason. Combatting terrorism is not a job for civilian police, who are not trained for war or combat - actually killing the enemy, rather spending a motza of our money on trials and imprisonment. All we get from sending troops overseas is more dangerous illegal immigrants.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 26 May 2018 12:39:37 PM
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Steelie & other Doubters. I suggest you pick up a copy of Bob Breen’s latest book “ A little bit of Hope” about $59, & read the “The world looking over their shoulder” also by Bob Breen, & Mc Cauley, that one is free.

Australia & it’s Soldiers are thought of throughout the World as the World leaders when it comes to behaviour & getting it right in their Peace Keeping Roles.

"THE WORLD LOOKING OVER THEIR SHOULDERS: AUSTRALIAN STRATEGIC CORPORALS ON OPERATIONS IN SOMALIA AND EAST TIMOR."
Bob Breen and Greg McCauley

"A Little Bit of Hope"
By Bob Breen OAM
Australian Force Somalia - second edition

I've just had Bob sign my copy of "First to Fight" at the reunion. The Story of 1 R.A.R. attached to the 173D (S) Airborne 65/66.

A good book with a few mistakes, which we pointed out to him. He was going on "Company Commanders Reports" which, as we explained to him, often were not the Reports submitted by the Company Commanders. They were told to sign the rewritten Reports or, "It would not go well for the rest of their Careers, if they didn't."
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 26 May 2018 12:55:13 PM
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Jayb,

"They were told to sign the rewritten Reports or, "It would not go well for the rest of their Careers, if they didn't."

Now that's truth spoken in earnest.

All that the Army reports is not necessarily true; I was once a witness on a Courts Martial, previous to which the Prosecuting Officer and the Defending Office (both Majors) and the witnesses got together and sorted out their stories, no lies were told but facts that would be prejudicial to the defence were not to be mentioned unless on a direct question under oath.
The defendant was a good bloke, decorated for bravery, and no one wanted to see his career ended because of a stupid, alcoholic, mistake.
Found guilty but given a punishment that allowed him to stay in the Army.
The finding of the Court was not ratified by the GOC and the bloke was transferred to a better job.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 26 May 2018 2:13:43 PM
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Is Mise: The defendant was a good bloke, decorated for bravery, and no one wanted to see his career ended because of a stupid, alcoholic, mistake.

That wouldn't have been Sgt. Budda Chevelle would it. He had a lot on a lot of Senior Officers & he used to get off at every Courts Martial. Strange that. I believe he ended up driving Taxi in Sydney.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 26 May 2018 3:32:15 PM
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I see the need for a professional, disciplined, defence force.
Paul1405,
And i see the need for professional, disciplined citizens. Have you got those qualifications ?
Why are those holding out their hands for more always derating those who feed them ?
I suppose when the going gets tough the do-gooders will run with the lemmings. People who have never looked death in the eye should refrain from squawking nonsense from the comfort of their taxpayer funded homes. They haven't the slightest idea what being scared & dodging bullets for the safety of those who don't appreciate them, feels like.
Keep in mind the only reason defence forces exist is because idiots keep having children & stupidity is hereditary..
Posted by individual, Saturday, 26 May 2018 4:23:58 PM
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Jayb,

No, this was way back in 1953 and on Active Service.

The bloke in question is dead now but finished his Army career as a WO I in AHQ.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 26 May 2018 4:24:22 PM
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ttbn, if you read my Friday post you might detect a wee bit of sarcasm there, but like so many on here you are still trying to relive the glory days when you were in the thick of things leading the Charge of the Light Brigade.

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
“Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!” he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

AC, we sent our mercenary army into Korea, Vietnam and several places since when the Yanks ordered us in. The only trouble is they never paid us the promised dosh. Unlike themselves who got well rewarded for effort by the locals to piss off Sadsam from Kuwait when he moved in there
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 26 May 2018 4:54:05 PM
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Paul1405: Vietnam and several places since when the Yanks ordered us in.

See you know nothing of History. The Australians ordered the US into Vietnam. For god sake do some research. It's just that the Yanks jump in with both feet when they jump.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 26 May 2018 5:03:49 PM
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Paul,

"AC, we sent our mercenary army into Korea..."

Involvement in Korea was at the behest of the United Nations.

Do you consider the excellent personnel of the Indian Army's 60th Parachute Field Ambulance Unit that served in South Korea to be mercenaries?

It had 627 personnel in all and it treated over 220,000 patients including civilians during the Korean War.

Here's a rough reference:
http://www.wionews.com/world/on-eve-of-inter-korean-summit-indian-armys-forgotten-role-in-korean-war-133024
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 26 May 2018 5:44:33 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

I think the number of souls lost at coral was 25 rather than 22 will 11 being killed in the first night. What an intense battle.

I remember when I read the account of fighting just how many weapons of the Australian either misfired or failed completely likely costing lives. Was it a shoddy job from the armourers or was there something else going on?

The other thing that struck me was the amount of Aussie humour even from the gravely wounded and dying.

It certainly is something that should be taught more widely.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 26 May 2018 7:08:57 PM
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//Do you consider the excellent personnel of the Indian Army's 60th Parachute Field Ambulance Unit that served in South Korea to be mercenaries?//
Not if they were unpaid volunteers, or conscripts who had no choice in the matter. But if they were part of a mercenary army that would be a different story.

Issy, for some reason you seem very touchy about the Korean War. It was like other wars, totally avoidable, and really had no worthwhile outcome, considering the price paid in human suffering. Just look at the Korean Peninsular today, more than 60 years later its still in a dangerous unstable condition. Korea was one of the great failures of WWII.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 26 May 2018 7:14:21 PM
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Paul,

"Issy, for some reason you seem very touchy about the Korean War"
Having been in it I dislike lies being told about it.

North Korea invaded South Korea and the UN came to the South's assistance, admittedly the war could have been avoided.
The UN could have done nothing, likewise the USA and it would soon have been over, or North Korea could have refrained from invading.

Or have you been taught that South Korea was the aggressor?

"...had no worthwhile outcome, considering the price paid in human suffering. Just look at the Korean Peninsular today, more than 60 years later its still in a dangerous unstable condition. Korea was one of the great failures of WWII."

and why is it still in a dangerous and unstable condition?
South Korean aggression?

South Korea is a thriving modern society, suggest that you go on Google Earth and have a look at the Korean Peninsular in Night View, the almost totally dark bit at the top is North Korea and the area of blazing lights is the South.

Seen any North Korean cars lately?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 26 May 2018 8:06:32 PM
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paul1405: . Just look at the Korean Peninsular today, more than 60 years later its still in a dangerous unstable condition.

Of course it is, but not because of the South or the Yanks. It's because the North wants to turn the lights out in the South so it looks like the North at night.

I suppose you support o' Kimmy as a great guy who looks after his people with the utmost kindness. Yes, the people of North Korea love him or else they get tied to the barrel of an Artillery piece & fired over the Wall. That's what all good benevolent Communist/Socialist Dictators do. Ay.

I take it that you & your ilk fully approve of Kimmy methods & would like to see them installed into Australian Society. Ay.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 26 May 2018 8:18:52 PM
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Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Thank you for correcting my inaccurate data on casualties. As I mentioned earlier on, my memory is failing rather more rapidly than I'd anticipated. Your comment concerning the proposition that our older school children should receive a more comprehensive instruction of Australia's involvement in the Vietnam War. Including the Korean War; the Malayan Emergency & Indonesian Confrontation; than previously taught. Is most laudable in my view.

Later conflicts & Peace Keeping, missions, are relatively well known among contemporary youth. However not so much is known of the various conflicts involving Australian's between the Korean War up to and including that of South Vietnam?

When I was an In-Patient at the Repat. Hospital, the bloke in the same, four bedded ward with me, was a bit of a mess. He was a Peacekeeper in Rwanda. He regaled me with rambling tales of horror, of what he witnessed in Rwanda. On one occasion, less than 40 to 50 metres from their line, he and his platoon had to watch helplessly while the warring sides evened the score, by hacking to death with machete's dozens of women & children, less than 50 metres from their position. And they were NOT permitted to open fire, due to the UN's partiality?

I couldn't fail to shoot these bloody 'butchers' if it were me, no wonder the poor bugger was a mental mess. This was independently verified by other reliable sources, and written about apparently by the UN Commander, a Canadian Lt General Romeo DALLAIRE, who himself had a major mental breakdown, as a consequence of the atrocities he witnessed in Rwanda.

You don't need to be amongst all manner of ordnance flying about, to end up with PTSD!

Thanks again STEELEREDUX.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 26 May 2018 9:07:34 PM
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Hey ttbn,
"I object to you calling the ADF 'mercenaries'; they cannot pick and choose, they follow orders. But I agree that protecting our nation by going to foreign countries is bullshite."

I'm sorry if I've offended you, Is Mise or any other member of our Armed Forces or their families; or any other Aussie that may have taken offense from use of the word 'mercenary'.
It wasn't my intention to cause offense; and I want you to know I didn't say what I said with disrespect.

It's hard to explain but it's actually more of the opposite:
- That if my forefathers; Anzacs and others, fought for anything worthwhile at all; then I'd like to think they did so for this nations future (and our freedoms), which by extension included their descendants (me) and for my right to speak my mind freely.

I want you to know I didn't say it disrespectfully, even though it probably came across that way.
I said it with a kind of respect that it was they (my forefathers) that fought for this nations future and my right to speak freely and say it.

Though after thinking about it, I also realised that simply saying these things publicly might contribute to lower morale within our armed forces;
And despite my beliefs and criticisms of our involvement in overseas wars I wouldn't want to inadvertently contribute to putting Australians in harms way.

I would like to think that the young men and women who join our Armed Forces do so for the right reasons; (ACTUALLY defending our nation) and that means that even though I may oppose the wars we involve ourselves in they still do deserve my respect.

I just oppose them becoming tools in other peoples agendas or being put in harms way and at the taxpayers expense for wars that really have nothing to do with us.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 26 May 2018 9:13:30 PM
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[Cont.]
- But I say that like I'm being naive when I actually know the world's far more complicated.
We're more or less joined at the hip with our intelligence agencies now which means that the intelligence apparatus is potentially more powerful than any individual nations leader within it, as we've seen with this Trump escapade, (though that's all about to explode any day now)
And if we weren't a partner in the global gang, we'd be a target for the US regime change type operations ourselves.

Sometimes I naively say things that reflect how I think things should be, but its not always in tune with the reality of how things actually are.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 26 May 2018 9:16:16 PM
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OSW: On one occasion, less than 40 to 50 metres from their line, he and his platoon had to watch helplessly while the warring sides evened the score, by hacking to death with machete's dozens of women & children, less than 50 metres from their position. And they were NOT permitted to open fire, due to the UN's partiality?

I had a mate in the Army Reserves who used to give me pi$$ over some of the stories I told of Vietnam. He joined the Regs & went to Rwanda. He sort me out a few years later to apologise to me about what he had done to me. He was at the massacre next day. He said he drove over 11 kilometers of bodies on the road, because the sides of the roads were mined. He said that what was shown on TV was only on tenth of the whole extent of the Massacre. 11 kilometers of driving over dead women & children. Would that make you feel OK? He said it's a sight no-one should ever have to see & live with for the rest of his life.

But these killers are the types of people defended by Steelie, Foxy & Pauly & others of their ilk all the time. If an Australian Soldier smiles at a female soldier or wears a Skull & X-bones on his truck he gets hung. Ay.

One has to get their parities right, Ay.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 26 May 2018 9:29:25 PM
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Issy, the term "mercenary" is a rather harsh term when applied to the individual Australian soldier who is caught up in these world conflicts. I do not denigrate the individual efforts of those men and woman who fought and died. It is governments who act in this senseless mercenary fashion, and for that they should be condemned. The deaths of 340 Australians in the Korean War cannot be justified. If only men of goodwill one both sides had acted before it came to armed hostilities, then all the deaths and suffering could have been avoided.

Yes, look at the pathetic state that North Korea is, its not something the people there brought on themselves or deserved. If things had gone better then all Koreans, north and south, could be today as one people, enjoying a free, democratic and prosperous society. The world failed the Koreans. Who is to blame,in my view all sides, the Soviet Union, China and America and it allies, none were clean skins when it came to Korea.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 27 May 2018 7:09:03 AM
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p1405: If things had gone better then all Koreans, north and south, could be today as one people, enjoying a free, democratic and prosperous society. The world failed the Koreans.

What you mean is that if the UN had won the Korean War. That's the only way Korea would be a free, democratic & prosperous Society. If the North had won then the entire Peninsular would be, "lights out" like North Korea is to day.

So much for your wonderful Socialist/Communist ideologies. If the Socialist/Communist/left/Greenie ever take charge in Australia we would be the next North Korea. Ay p1405, Steelie, & others of that ilk.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 27 May 2018 8:34:11 AM
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I guess Cambell wouldn’t approve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4UJDdrQmTw
A quick look. Just a few minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ffrOzOLEE
2 ˝ & 5 Ton Gun Trucks from Vietnam. 23 minutes.

These were constructed out of necessity by the Troops themselves. Fashioned out of anything they could, beg, borrow or steal. They worked. The most famous were “Eve of Destruction” & “Brutus”

Worth a look.

I know that p1405, Steelie & Foxy will be appalled by the aggressive natures of thees trucks. Try not to chuck a hissy fit fellers on't cry.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 27 May 2018 10:10:10 AM
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Steele,

"Was it a shoddy job from the armourers or was there something else going on?"

Well, it couldn't have been the fault of Australian Army armourers because there were none in Vietnam.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 27 May 2018 10:10:14 AM
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JayB,

Mate time and time again of this forum you have been shown you couldn't lie straight in bed. I rarely bother reading your rubbish and haven't bothered addressing you much at all because you are usually pretty toxic and not worth the bother.

But in fairness to Hasbeen you really need to be shown for what you are. While Hasbeen might embellish a few things he is not an outright liar, at least not as far as I can tell. But every post you make it is so bloody obvious you are often just pulling things out of your arse.

Further you write things like;

“Being somewhat of a Coward yourself, I suspect, I could never see you putting yourself in harms way to even protect your own family.”

Who does that? Is there some kind of projection happening here? Have you been called out on an act of cowardice and now resorting to reacting the way you do now to deal with it? I wonder. But whatever brand of coward you may or may not have been in the past I would never stoop so low as to say you wouldn't be prepared to put yourself in harms way to protect your family.

You sir are obviously that low.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 27 May 2018 10:47:33 AM
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Steele,

You can hand it out but it seems that you can't take it!!
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 27 May 2018 11:23:23 AM
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Jayb,

If you rarely read AcidReflux's posts, why would you be responding to the ratbag all the time? He is a waste of space and a waste of time, appealing only to the likes of Foxy, who seems to like 'bad men' - and idiots in the case of AcidReflux. There is one poster I haven't read for a long time; and I have added two more to that list this week. But, I usually glance at what AcidReflux has to say because because I find his brand of lunacy fascinating - not to be found anywhere else. Good material for a psychological investigation. Just look upon him as a harmless idiot who obviously has a very unfortunate life. You are above dealing with him.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 27 May 2018 11:39:29 AM
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Dear o sung wu,

Rwanda was such a level of insanity that it is hard to think of anyone walking away from that untraumatised. Some of what happened in the Balkans comes close to it but the shear numbers in Rwanda are beyond comprehension.

Don't sweat about not getting the number of casualties at Coral quite right and you did say ”(I think)”. I only remembered it because I had just last year read Lex McAuley's book on the battle. I will see if my nephew has finished with it because it has some extraordinary first hand accounts from those who were there. It would be good to refresh.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 27 May 2018 12:10:17 PM
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Toni,

"Well, most of those could still apply to the WOW nerd model of virgin I described. Maybe not the beautiful part, although eye of the beholder and all that."

I'd have to go back and research it but I'm pretty sure the Koran does give rough 'dimensions' for the virgin with their height and girth suggesting a rather lithesome lass.

Also one of Mo's virgin wives was Mary mother of JC and every picture I've seen of her shows her as a rather svelte lady.

QED
Posted by mhaze, Sunday, 27 May 2018 1:09:25 PM
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Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I must support JAYB in this matter. I understand he was with 1RAR and as such they saw much 'in theatre' in SV including Coral & Balmoral It was my understanding they were the first Regiment to be sent over via the old Vung Tau Ferry (HMAS Sydney) in 1965 or 66 (I think). Chief among many of their 'firsts', it was the 'Gingerbeers' attached to 1RAR who developed the search & destroy methodology, by one of their number entering the extensive tunnel system the NVA & 'Cong' had developed, and setting up Boobytrap's.

An act bordering upon lunacy in my opinion. Some of the entrances to those tunnels I couldn't possibly fit, but they did. Not only was the threat of meeting an armed combatant possibly waiting for you; it was pitch dark, home for all manner of poisonous reptiles and other, who know's what?

In fact his recall of his SV days is far superior to mine, so bad is mine I was arguing the toss with a mate over who undertook a dustoff to 1AFH at Vung Tau - I reckoned 5Sqn he claimed 9Sqn, and he was right. I flew with 5 Sqn (UH-1B's) on Operations along the Thai/Malay Border in 1964/65. So confusion reigns supreme with me & my memory?

In conclusion STEELEREDUX, our colleague JAYB has done his share, and acquitted himself honourably with the ARA. As have I too (hopefully)? Certainly IS MISE as well, for he served honourably with the famous 3RAR during the Korean War a highly decorated Australian Unit.

Not forgetting my old Naval Aviator mate HASBEEN. Though he erroneously signed up with the 'Wrong' Service (Navy), he's forgiven, because he's a good Aussie bloke, who did his share of the heavy lifting in the proud Australian Military. Thanks STEELEREDUX.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 27 May 2018 1:22:11 PM
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mhaze,

"Also one of Mo's virgin wives was Mary mother of JC and every picture I've seen of her shows her as a rather svelte lady."

She musta been getting on a bit by the 6th Century (Gregorian).
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 27 May 2018 2:16:22 PM
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That puts me two steps above you Steelie. When push comes to shove I bet you convert to Islam real quick. I’ve never been a Coward. I’ve not been trained for that role by any of the Universities now-a-days. All your posts are or seem to be hell bent on supporting the really bad guys. Why is that?

Just remembering past conversation about Japs & Broome. I visited WA in 87 while I was there I got talking to an old fella who was in the Local Militia in Broome. He told me that the Aboriginals just north of Broome had reported a Japanese landing. Now, as you know Broome had a large Japanese population of Perl Divers. They were loyal to Australia, some joined the Armed Forces & one even became a famed Fighter Ace. The Local Militia decided to send a representative from the Japanese locals to see what they were up to. Apparently, the intention was to convince the local Japanese to rise up against the Militia & help them capture Broome. The Commander of the Japanese also had a relative buried in the Japanese Cemetery & wanted to see the grave. The Japanese were told that the locals would not rise up & exaggerated the size of the Militia. They also told them that the local aborigines were of the wild type & cannibals & that there were hundreds in the area they were in but were good at staying hidden. The local Japanese spokes man told them they had three options. Fight & lose, Surrender or Leave. The Japanese chose to leave.

I really don’t know how true it is, but that’s the story as it was told to me.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 27 May 2018 3:27:39 PM
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OSW: I understand he was with 1RAR and as such they saw much 'in theatre' in SV including Coral & Balmoral.

I did the first Tour attached to the 173D (S) Airborne. In 65/66. Our big Ops were the Delta, Silver City & HoBo Woods (The Tunnels). Actually I found the first Tunnel, or Bunker by going to dig the S#!t Pit. & Yes, the Engineers did go down them. We lost Bowtels, in one of the Tunnels. He was overcome by Tear Gas that was pumped in to show where the Tunnel entrances were.

Coral/Balmoral was the Second Tour 68/69. It involved 1 & 3 R.A.R. & Supporting Arms. I was not involved in that one. I was with 8 R.A.R. in Malaysia.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 27 May 2018 3:27:59 PM
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I guess Cambell wouldn’t approve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4UJDdrQmTw
A quick look. Just a few minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ffrOzOLEE
2 ˝ 7 5 Ton Gun Trucks from Vietnam. 23 minutes.

These were constructed out of necessity by the Troops themselves. Fashioned out of anything they could, beg, borrow or steel. They worked. The most famous were “Eve of Destruction” & “Brutus”
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 27 May 2018 3:35:41 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

And here I was thinking I was giving as good as I was getting. Oh well each to their own.

Dear o sung wu,

Of course you should be sticking up for Jayb, I would expect nothing less. He is like that little pain in the arse rover on your side who is a filthy player who ticks of everyone on the other team until one retaliates and then you have to step in and cop a few to back him up.

Perfectly understandable. Done it myself a few times.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 27 May 2018 6:43:18 PM
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Jayb,

I knew a Bob Bowtell back in my RAEME days, wonder if it's the same bloke?

Here's a story that I heard up in the Territory many years ago; seems that a Jap plane landed with engine trouble and while the pilot wandered off for a drink at the nearby creek some local tribesmen fashioned a long tether from vine and attached it to the tail of the plane.
The pilot fixed the engine problem then taxied and damaged the tail so much that he couldn't take off.
The aboriginal bloke who was telling me said that the men just left the Jap to fend for himself; then he grinned a bit.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 27 May 2018 7:18:23 PM
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Is Mise: I knew a Bob Bowtell back in my RAEME days, wonder if it's the same bloke?

Bob Bowtell was in 17 Construction 65/66. The Engineers were also attached to the 173D (S) Airborne

Steelie: He is like that little pain in the arse rover.

& I do my job well. Ay. At least I know what I'm talking about from personal experience. therefore much qualified to comment. Don't you think.

Is Mise: Here's a story that I heard up in the Territory many years ago;

I just bet there is a million stories just like that, & true.

I'd like to hear some comment on the Aggressive Inappropriate Symbols on the side of the Gun Trucks. ;-)

There is a great doco about them done by a bloke from the second Iraq Campaign.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 27 May 2018 8:42:19 PM
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Hi there JAYB...

I've heard of operation 'Silver City'. You would've copped a fair bit from snipers secluded in their trapdoor entrances to their tunnel systems. They were certainly cunning buggers, with their ability to pop up anywhere within their tunnel complex.

You mentioned being redeployed in Malaysia. We were posted there before SV in June of !964 through to July 65. We operated along the Thai/Malay Border area trying to rout out the Communist Terrorists who've been entrenched there, since the end of WWll. We supported the Malaysian Field Police & Malaysian Rangers in a 'pincer' movement in order to trap the buggers in an area between two Jungle Forts; (Kroh & Tapong) along the Border.

You'd remember the terrible conditions on the border, being one of the hottest places on earth. Complete with tropical downpours (monsoons) together with awful humid conditions thereafter. Patrolling through the bush with a 50 or 60lb pack on you back in such humidity - we chaffed just about everywhere; and without prickly heat powder it became decidedly much more uncomfortable, with the occasional infection setting in. Next war I sign up for's, gotta be held in AirCon. conditions!
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 27 May 2018 8:42:49 PM
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OSW: two Jungle Forts; (Kroh & Tapong) along the Border.
We did most of our Exercises on the Eastern Side, in the Mountains to the West of Kuala Terengganu. That’s where we ran into the Orang Osli. The aboriginal people the Malays regard as just animals, until the adopt Islam. The Imam wanted us to shoot them. The area was loaded with those little Green Vipers sitting in the branches of trees. Thank God they weren’t aggressive.
I arrived six weeks after the Emergency was declared over in 67. We still had to take our Weapons ammo & Gear home with us though for the first six months. I actually lived quite close to Malacca beside the NAAFI on Klebang Besar.

OSW: Next war I sign up for's, gotta be held in AirCon. conditions!

I’m right with you on that.

Still no word on the Aggressive Inappropriate War Symbols on the Sides of the Gun Trucks.

There were some good ones on the Choppers too. Actually, After a battle the Air Cav used to scatter Hundreds of “Ace of Spades Cards with a Skull & Xbones” with “Death from Above” on them. Oh! How demoralizing for the enemy that must have been. Shame, shame.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 27 May 2018 9:23:35 PM
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JayB,

Your conversation with someone about their experience in Rwanda probably happened albeit with a likely touch up in the telling, but that is not the reason I responded where I usually don't.

It was this toxic lie;

“But these killers are the types of people defended by Steelie, Foxy & Pauly & others of their ilk all the time.”

When you and the other little cur ttbn snarl and nip away from the safety of your keyboards it all just washes past and down the sewer. And if ttbn is fascinated in me then he is likely leaving someone else alone. But your outrageous lie slandering two good people was just pathetic, nasty and contemptible. And forcing a reasonable bloke like o sung wu to have to vouch for you is doubly pathetic.

Is it a case of you being ignored by me so you go after them to see if that gets a reaction? Well using the horror of what happened in Rwanda to have a dig like this is gutter level stuff. Neither have given you the cause to say such a thing about them. You really need to apologise.

Mr 'I've killed 2.5 people'. Who in the hell brags about a thing like that anyway?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 27 May 2018 9:49:17 PM
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Hi (again) JAYB...

I honestly don't understand what all the fuss is about concerning these so call aggressive and provocative signage seen on many Aussie military facilities. This new Lt Gen. just wants to make a name for himself with the troops, and on that note, he's failing very miserably. Buggered if I know, I really don't?
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 27 May 2018 9:50:18 PM
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Those Vietnam gun trucks are interesting.

They are similar in many ways to the way US PT boats ended up in the Solomons & PNG. They had anything that they could find a space to bolt down on them, when their task became chasing Jap supply barges at night, a task torpedos were not much use for. A typical result of long bureaucratic supply lines, a couple of years behind in providing suitable equipment.

The same thing happened with the patrol boats on the Mekong, developing the fire power to do the job required.

We had an 85 foot supply of stainless steel in Rabaul. The Yanks built a couple of PT boats out of stainless, but they were a failure. After the war one was brought into Rabaul, & dragged ashore, up behind the main road. Plenty of stainless available, you just had to hack it off the thing.

The worst thing was, before battery powered tools, if you didn't have a pretty big gen set to drive 240V tools, it took a while, & a lot of sweat, to get what you wanted with a hacksaw. It was fascinating going over the thing & seeing all the local modifications they had done, to try to make the thing work, both in armament & ventilation.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 27 May 2018 10:13:33 PM
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Would the offended please be so kind as to offer their opinion on the holding up of severed heads for the cameras in comparison to the skull/cross bones etc ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 28 May 2018 7:33:55 PM
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individual,

Leftist, Fifth Column Australians are too busy hating their own country to give any thought to something as trivial as Muslims sawing off and brandishing human heads.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 28 May 2018 7:49:26 PM
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Dear Steele,

I've just read your defence of
myself and Paul concerning the massacres in Rwanda and the
remarks made by Jayb.
I had no idea that Jayb would say something as horrific as that.

Why would Jayb say something like that?

Thank You for defending us.

I am truly grateful.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 28 May 2018 9:10:07 PM
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Jayb,

"Bob Bowtell was in 17 Construction 65/66."

Then it's when I was in 2 Base Wksp, RAEME (Dept of Defence civilian by then), that I would have known him.
We had dealings on a day to day basis with the RAE, who were just down the road from us.
We also took some of their apprentices each year for a bit of extra training, or part of their trade testing, I forget which.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 28 May 2018 9:56:13 PM
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Hi Foxy and Steele

I don't normally read those long winded reminiscing GI Joe posts of the likes of JayB, frankly there are boring, more likely something he likes to recount with a touch of embellishment after one too many schooners on ANZAC Day, as he pisses up with his old comrades down at the RSL. Seems he has had some grubby involvement with militarism somewhere along the line, good for him.

As for what took place in Rwanda in the 1990's, the horrific atrocity that was unleashed upon the Tutsi people, it was one of the worse instances of genocide in modern history. Upwards of 1,000,000 were exterminated in a very short period of time. A great failure of the UN Mission in Rwanda was that it stood by and done nothing as the atrocity unfolded. Certainly none of us three mentioned here condone what happened, and for JayB to say otherwise is disgusting.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 6:11:04 AM
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p1405: Certainly none of us three mentioned here condone what happened, and for JayB to say otherwise is disgusting.

I didn't say you condone what happened. I said, 'going by your post, old & new, you support the people & their organizations & Idealism that did it.'

p1405: more likely something he likes to recount with a touch of embellishment after one too many schooners on ANZAC Day,

Well apart from the fact I don't drink, smoke or bump ugly's (anymore,) The things that happened to me & my mates, happened. There is no need to embellish. They are with me forever. If they offend you, good, maybe you can take a lesson from them. Such as the Communism/Socialism/Lefty/Green thing is bad for humanity.

Name a Country where the Communist/Socialist/Lefty/Green thing has been successful. North Korea, maybe? Your sort of people. Ay.

Just because you have an "I don't want to know" attitude to reality is none of my concern. I just happen to be a person who tells it like it was, or is, & damn the consequences for your sensibilities. Get it!

Your support for the banning of 'Wartime Insignia' is one of those, "I don't want to know, so I'll have to be offended," things
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 8:37:54 AM
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Jayb,

My father's entire family were wiped out by the Red Army.
So for you to even suggest that I would support
communism or any totalitarian regime - is horrific in the extreme.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 10:18:16 AM
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Foxy: My father's entire family were wiped out by the Red Army.

German? Sorry for your loss Foxy, but the fact is that you & your Left wing friends are anti everything that is good in our Society & want to destroy it. You, by your support for their ideals, in your Posts, verify this.

You personally maybe against Communists. Someone else maybe against the Greens, but you do support one or more of my list, (Communists/Socialist/Leftists/Greens) It's the same tree just different branches.

I see the aims of these Political Groups to be the same, just how they achieve them is the difference. I don't see that there is that much difference in their long term goals. Kill the opposition & subjugate the remainder. Just like the Red Army did to your family.

The only Socialist State I know of that works well is Singapore.

The rest are disasters for the common throng. Don't you just love North Korea, Venezuela, Congo & on & on. Wonderful places to live, don't you think.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 11:25:53 AM
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Jayb, if you are a reformed alcoholic then I am pleased that you're getting it together, if not so what. Your stories are truthful, okay, I'll accept that. Judging by your age you don't bump ugly's, I'd say you don't dump anything anymore, unless you pay for it.

//you support the people & their organizations & Idealism that did it.// NO!

//North Korea, maybe? Your sort of people. Ay.// Noting wrong with the North Korean people, but the regime stinks, so again the answer is; NO!

Foxy, don't worry about this clown, to him if you eat red jelly you're a Communists. He's some hang over from the 1950's cold war, who still believes in Reds under the beds.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 12:04:09 PM
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Hi PAUL1405...

You say the UN Mission in Rwanda stood by and did nothing while, murder rape and mayhem took place resulting in thousands of innocents dying at the hand of machete wielding killers. Is not entirely true. There's a book I can thoroughly recommend to you, and any one else who's interested in that massacre, it's titled; 'Shake Hands with the Devil' - 'The failure of Humanity in Rwanda'. Authored by a Canadian soldier, Lt Gen. Romeo DALLAIRE, Force Commander of the UN Mission in Rwanda.

This entire book speaks of the inhumanity of man. The massive number of atrocities Gen. DALLAIRE and his Forces needed to confront, caused many a harden soldier, to have a mental breakdown, ending their military career. *Including Gen. DALLAIRE himself*.

You see Paul, there'd be nothing more 'enraging' for a trained soldier of any rank, than being required to sit idly by, while 'locked & loaded', watching blood thirsty killers, eviscerating men, women & children with machete's, knowing they can do so, with apparent impunity.

You see Paul, our very own Aussie troops had to standby, and witness these atrocities take place. Because of some frigging 'wet' at the United Nations HQ in New York City, sat on his hands, hoping it would all go away? A company of Infantry if permitted, could clear our these murderous maggots, if allowed too, saving possibly hundreds of lives in the process.
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 12:41:24 PM
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p1405: Jayb, if you are a reformed alcoholic then I am pleased that you're getting it together,

Please don't put me into the reformed basket, unless it's a reformed Smoker from 42 years ago. It was my only vice. Now I'd say, in your case, going by previous Posts, you... have a lot of reforming to do yet. You are young, there is still time, but it's fast running out.

I never was a big drinker. Ever. I've always had it together. I'm the type of person which some types of people don't like, because I can't be manipulated by those who wish to control the masses. All which means I have never been a slave for the Left, Right or even the Centre.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 1:20:22 PM
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Dear Paul,

There is no justification for making slurs against
people on a public forum simply because their opinions
may disagree with one's own. Stating that you and I
and Steele would support the perpetrators of the
Rwanda massacres - is the lowest comment that I've seen
thus far on this forum and it upsets me to the core -
especially when my posts in this discussion have been
to try to explain
Lieutenant General Campbell's position on the tone
he is attempting to set for the military. Now, people
are welcome to disagree but to accuse me of supporting
heinous massacres in foreign countries - is beyond the pail.

BTW: In Rwanda - the then governing party MRND
had a youth wing called the Interahamne
which was turned into a militia (a death cult)
to carry out the slaughter.
Weapons and hit lists were handed out to local groups,
who knew exactly where to find their targets.

Who on earth would support actions like those?
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 1:26:46 PM
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cont'd ...

And as far as politics is concerned?

My entire family has always voted Liberal.
As have I. I do not belong to any political
party, nor do I support any political party.
I prefer to vote for policies that make sense
to me and are good for my family. I have
never supported communism or any other
totalitarian regime. That would be going against
myself. The reason my family came to this country
was to escape from communism during WWII.
I trust that clears things up.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 1:42:55 PM
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Paul1405,
I don't know how much it'd cost you but there are facilities that can help you see reality. Might be the best Dollars you ever spent.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 2:22:27 PM
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Foxy: That would be going against myself.

Yet, virtually every post I've ever seen from you support the very ideals that are working to destroy Australia. Lefties & their Communist aspirations, Labours Socialist agenda & various other groups that are hell bent on changing the demography of the Australian people & the Country your parents came here to enjoy.

Why is that? These people are using our Generosity & notion of a 'Fair Go' to undermine our freedoms, eventually. Then they will show their true tyrant Colours.

Ok, I say it hard, No compassionate sentimentally. They are not the sweet words of the Politically Correct, but someone has to say it like it is. Spraying Cologne on a turd do make it smell better in the short term, but the smell will always be there underneath. If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd & tastes like a turd, then it's a turd. Intentionally Crude.

The ignorant, naďve support for these groups in Australia offends me & the deliberate, knowing support offends me even more.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 4:39:03 PM
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My! My! a few chooks coming home to roost.

How's it feel to be on the receiving end?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 4:40:39 PM
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Jayb,

Kindly give me an example of where I have ever done what you're
accusing me of.

I totally reject your accusations.

Because they are false.

And Sir, my parents did not come her to "enjoy" themselves.
They came because they were fleeing persecution. And whilst
here they did not ask for anything. They worked hard,
raised a family, contributed to the building of this country.
So you can blow your views out of your rear-end.

Is Mise,

Out to insult again?

Dream on.

For that to happen I'd have to respect your opinions.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 5:22:53 PM
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Foxy,

"Is Mise,

Out to insult again?"

No, just laughing at the squirming by the perennial insulters.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 6:48:54 PM
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same old sausages,
fizzing and sputtering in their own grease.
Their only flair is in their nostrils.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 6:57:16 PM
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JayB,

You can belly ache all you bloody well like about people's political stance and where you think the country is headed. I don't care. What you don't get to do is to say Foxy and Paul defended the murderers who slaughtered women and children in Rwanda without being called out on it.

You really need to apologise and move on but I sadly see that is unlikely. You have had your defenders supporting you after casting such a slur but I'm pretty sure they were not all comfortable in doing so.

Name one instance where either Foxy or Paul have come within a bull's roar of saying something like that about you. Really appalling.

And for Is Mise to be sitting there getting his jollies over this is pretty pathetic. You lot really are snowflakes. You pile it on raising the hyperbole and insults until you take it too far then claim victim status when you get pulled up.

Children.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 7:16:35 PM
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Good Evening Steele,

I've written many times on this forum that the art of
reasoned, intelligent argument is a skill not
easily acquired. I should have known better than to have
been provoked. I fell right into the trap. Thank You
for speaking out on mine and Paul's behalf.
Next time I shall try not to respond to someone who's
obviously got their own agenda - and subsequently should
be ignored.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 May 2018 11:33:50 PM
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Hi Foxy,

//The reason my family came to this country was to escape from communism during WWII.//

Totally understand what your feelings are. We cannot begin to comprehend the tremendous suffering that millions of innocent people were subjected to in the dark days of the twentieth century in Europe, before Hitler, by Hitler, after Hitler, Stalin was the same! Two terrible monsters coexisting in the one place, at the one time. There were others as well, Mussolini etc etc, mind bogging tyrants one and all.

If I can say, fortunately there was a positive from all that went on in Europe in those dark days. Some survived, millions did not of course, but many of the survivors were able to start new lives in far off alian places like Australia. These "reffos" as they were called by the locals have made such an outstandingly positive contribution to our society that we are forever in their debt. Much of what has been achieved in Australia in recent times is down to the efforts of post war migrants, like your family. I say good on them, and thank you one and all for what you have done for Australia.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 5:12:35 AM
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I say good on them, and thank you one and all for what you have done for Australia.
Paul1405,
Forgive me but from reading your posts I get the distinct feeling that you're not at all against the gradual undermining of this Nation. Again I apologise if I misread your gist but to me it appears that you're always defending those who want to bring us down i.e. I don't seem to see you denouncing their agenda.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 10:10:47 AM
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Dear Paul,

Thank You for your acknowledgement and understanding
of those difficult times that not only my family
but - so many went through.
The initial two-year contracts were my parents first
major contribution to Australia. They helped to solve
an acute labour shortage in Australia, especially in
outlying areas. I won't go into all the details of
their contribution to this country or of what this
country did for them - suffice to say
it was significant at a time when Australia and they needed
it most. And of course this contribution continues by
all of us who were born here today - and will continue to
do so - by our children and grand-children - all of whom now
proudly call Australia - home.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 10:16:43 AM
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Whoever you may be;

For those that want to bring us down, I denounce your agenda.

Satisfied with that individual.

The post war contribution made to Australia by migrants is immense, their children and grandchildren included. the vast majority of migrants have increased the value, both economically and culturally, of this country by an immeasurable amount. Initially migrants were predominately British, New Zealanders, Southern and Eastern Europeans. Later those people were followed by Vietnamese, Chinese, Indian, some from Africa and others from the Middle East, from all places in fact.

Just as the first post war arrivals were demonized by some, so are many of today's new arrivals, nothing new in that.

Met a young Irishman the other day, very early in the morning at the bus stop, it was dark and he wanted to travel some distance. As a very new arrival, living in a batch, he was a bit lost for directions to his work, which was some distance away, and Sydney's public transport system can be hard to follow at times, even for old hands. I helped him out with advice, and we caught the bus together. Seems the bloke is a bricklayer working here on a visa, and hopes to make enough money in Australia to put a deposit on a house for his family (wife and baby son) back in Ireland. He does not want to live permanent in Australia, loves Ireland too much, but is willing to work here, and make something for himself, and I am glad Australia can give him and others the opportunity that is hard to find in their country of origin.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 11:29:41 AM
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I denounce your agenda,
Paul1405
Now what have I been saying all along ? Thank you for being honest enough to expose your true lack of patriotism to those who feed you & denonce my agenda to get this country back on track.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 12:38:17 PM
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p1405: The post war contribution made to Australia by migrants is immense, Initially migrants were predominately British, New Zealanders, Southern and Eastern Europeans. Later those people were followed by Vietnamese,

Yep you are right there. They were all Christian & endeavoured to fit into Australia's Culture. However this last lot being forced on Australia are not Christian. In fact they wish to destroy Christianity & replace it with the medieval Cult of Islam. A Religion that, for 1500 years has been in turmoil, not only with itself, but the rest of the Civilized World. A Religion that wants to destroy Australia's culture & anyone who doesn't want to convert to Islam.

Now lets get back to the Iconography of "Aggressive War Iconography." I didn't see any comment from the belligerents on the iconography of the 'Gun Trucks of Vietnam.' The Iconography of our soldiers now whilst fighting in Afghanistan.

Why do you think it's so bad?
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 1:44:17 PM
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//For those that want to bring us down, I denounce your agenda.//

//I denounce your agenda,
Paul1405
Now what have I been saying all along ? Thank you for being honest enough to... denonce my agenda//

Are you one of the people trying to bring us down, individual? Why do you hate Australia so much?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 2:57:54 PM
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denounce my agenda to get this country back on track
Toni Lavis,
Sorry,
I didn't realise you were still struggling with English !
I can't make it any clearer than the above line. if you still interprete this as me hating Australia then sorry, I can't help you anymore. Of corse I don't believe you're having trouble with English, only with integrity !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 3:15:41 PM
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Hey Individual,

Re-read what Paul actually said and how you responded
to it.

You're the one having problems with the language and
understanding old chap. Lighten up.
Toni - was merely yanking your chain - and rightly so!

Thick as a brick!
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 4:52:49 PM
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Yeah, dear old Foxy,
Good to see you seeing the histerical side of the decline of this nation's society. Thick as a brick ? Don't look in the mirror whilst typing that word.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 5:30:42 PM
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//Good to see you seeing the histerical side of the decline of this nation's society.//

Oh, I don't think anybody is amused by things going downhill in this country.

We're laughing at you, mate.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 6:07:25 PM
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Dear individual,

I shouldn't have said - "thick as a brick,"
I should have found a more gentle
and less insulting expression.

Anyway, the point that I was trying to make
was that - you seem to be fixated on accusing
others of being "unpatriotic" and laughing
over what you see as -the decline of this nation's
society. I don't know of anybody that's actually
doing that - and that's what Paul tried to tell
you. We're all against any one who would do harm
to this lovely country of ours.

That's why - your suggestion of looking in the
mirror is actually a good one. We should all try
it. Sometimes a good look in the mirror can work
wanders.

What is currently concerning though is
that stereotyping is rife in
today's political debate - and that's unfortunate
because it means we fail to see the real individuals
behind the labels we impose on them.

Anyway, the following link explains further:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/australia-culture-blog/2014/feb/26/is-australia-losing-its-empathy

It's worth a read. What we need to focus on is what unites
us - not what divides us.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 6:43:01 PM
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Foxy,
Cheers for that .
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 7:08:34 PM
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Dear individual,

Thank You.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 7:14:46 PM
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Seeing I started the thread, I think I'm entitled to say that posters really veered off the topic this time. Wars stories; personal mud-slinging by bruised egos, and even immigrants even got gurnsey!
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 9:00:54 PM
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That's the beauty of this forum and why people
love it so much and keep coming back.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 10:46:18 PM
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ttbn, hear, hear! Once again I sit and read through a plethora of leftist drivel, and in usual disbelief that there can still be such completely brainwashed, PC, condescending, self opinionated pundits. Honestly some commentors need to get a room. Now back on topic. You are absolutely right in your premise. The people who actually do the fighting and put themselves in harms way and their lives on the line are real heroes. I must remind everyone that the reason women should absolutely not be allowed on the front lines is, as it was well argued from way back, that the men would put themselves in harms way to protect the women. This was a proven and accepted fact, until the spoilt, petulant maggots began busting balls, and eventually convincing some soft cocks to allow them in. This idiot of a general is de-nackering real men in a sick attempt at trying to satisfy the maggots and the PC. Only an idiot would back a push to demoralise fighting men by taking away the things which help to give them the edge and conviction to go forth and face death. Let's see these commentors get off their cosy asses and do the same. I am sorry we don't have conscription any more. Quite a large amount of our social problems would be solved by it's re-instatement. BTW just so that we get a real view of the front line. Not many people know that in WWII soldiers had to hold positions and could not leave their post. Because of this the smell in the trenches was extreme, to say the least, as it was customary to urinate and defecate in your uniform. Don't believe it? Look it up.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 11:32:25 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

I'm not sure if I have ever expressed concern about your mental state but if not then I do so now.

Why are you referring to women as maggots? You have made your disdain of Aussies pretty clear numerous times on this forum but I don't thing you have ever gone off the reservation to this degree. Is it mother issues? Been jilted by someone who had enough of your bombast? Whatever it is it really does need attention because it is not normal and flags really deep seated issues.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 30 May 2018 11:59:32 PM
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Steely, I have no hang-ups or deep seated mother or jilted issues.
If I might explain.
I am a reasonably intelligent person of a little above average IQ and EQ.
I am a lot of people rolled into one.
What you are referring to is my in-ability to accept something which I know, feel or sense to be wrong.
I love women, and there-in lies the problem.
Women are a beautiful and loving creature.
Unfortunately their ranks have been infiltrated and contaminated by these other things I refer to as females and sometimes, according to the subject matter, as maggots, to describe bad or unsavoury females. Usually because of their anti-social and extreme beliefs, behaviour and actions.
I vehemently oppose PC and all it stands for and the people who promote or believe in it.
The incursion of females into ALL facets of life has been and is a folly.
They are pushing a selfish agenda at the expense of fathers and husbands who badly need a job to support their families.
To further make my point.
When a female insists on doing what is clearly, and traditionally a man's job, she is just being petulant and even arrogant.
Just one example I have witnessed.
A young female mechanic.
Now if you can't see the contradiction there then there is no helping you.
Back to my point.
She finished removing the hardware so as to remove the cylinder head, casually stands back and calls a MAN over to lift it out for her.
Now this is just one example of the maggots I speak of.
Not only are women not meant to do certain jobs, that's why they have always been MEN's jobs, and it is some weird and twisted minds that want to be something they clearly should not be.
Industries are being changed, not for the better but to cater to the whims and demands of these 'maggots'.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 31 May 2018 2:10:44 AM
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//I'm not sure if I have ever expressed concern about your mental state but if not then I do so now.//

Don't mind ALTRAVing lunatic, Steele. He's just having a bit of tantrum because he didn't get to have the last say on this argument:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8255#257530

//Why are you referring to women as maggots?//

Word to the wise, Steele: this one has more than a touch of the Norman Bates about him, if you catch my drift. He thinks women's suffrage was a bad idea, but I suspect he'd be somewhat more in favour of women's sufferage.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 31 May 2018 2:30:33 AM
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Toni I don't think I can write any simpler so as to cater for people like yourself who seem to have trouble with 'basic' English.
Although I see you are quite articulate and inventive when it comes to going off topic to 'bag' someone.
Reminds me of a guy with a bad tummy bug.
Whilst walking along, every few minutes he dives off to the sides to vomit.
I think that describe your situation well enough.
Now, brainiac, can we get back on topic?
You are allowed to bag the subject matter in question such as maggots, because they form part of the response to the topic, not other commentors.
We are not part of the topic.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 31 May 2018 2:53:01 AM
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Dear Ms Toni lavis,
Oh, gee, I forgot what I was going to write, damn that Alkaseltzer decease !
Ah, that's right, Altrav is absolutely 99% right & he'd be 101% had he not forgotten to add ultimate hypocrisy.
Seeing that this thread is about male soldiers, where do the foreign soldiers of religion in Australia fit into all this ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 31 May 2018 6:13:57 AM
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altrav: Unfortunately their ranks have been infiltrated and contaminated by these other things I refer to as females and sometimes, according to the subject matter, as maggots, to describe bad or unsavoury females. Usually because of their anti-social and extreme beliefs, behaviour and actions.

I agree. Would you really call them women. Ya know, I wonder why women who hate men so much do their best to look like dirty old men. Strange that.

TL: He thinks women's suffrage was a bad idea,

I didn't get that. I'd say he has respect for women, real women, with equal rights. The 'maggots' want to remove men's rights all-together.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 31 May 2018 8:53:58 AM
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//Toni I don't think I can write any simpler so as to cater for people like yourself who seem to have trouble with 'basic' English.//

What's wrong, princess? Did the nasty man hurt your feelings? What a a sad little snowflake you are: always happy to dish it out, and then you turn into a whiny sook the second you're on the receiving end. Pretty childish, ALTRAVing lunatic.

//Ah, that's right, Altrav is absolutely 99% right & he'd be 101% had he not forgotten to add ultimate hypocrisy.
Seeing that this thread is about male soldiers, where do the foreign soldiers of religion in Australia fit into all this ?//

Do you have some sort of intellectual disability, individual? Serious question.

//I didn't get that. I'd say he has respect for women, real women, with equal rights.//

Really?

//I'll go so far as to draw people's attention to the fact that our problems began when we allowed women to have a say, drive, or vote.//

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8255#257459

Here's a free tip, Jayb: if you're going to try lying on behalf of your mates, make it a less obvious lie. Otherwise you'll get caught out and made to look foolish and duplicitous.

//The 'maggots' want to remove men's rights all-together.//

Maggots are fly larvae, dude. I'm pretty sure they don't care.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 31 May 2018 10:34:16 AM
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ALTRAV,

There are certainly many seriously wet, self-obsessed posters here. There are those who love to talk about themselves and their probably imagined experiences, then there is Foxy, hanging on like a groupie to the extreme Left and saying little, really, except 'here's a link that might be helpful', and hitting us with crap from the ABC or other Leftist media.

I have great respect for the ADF, and even greater sympathy for the PC rubbish their really creep superiors foist on them.

On the subject of women in the forces, I heard a discussion on the radio last night which revealed that, of the 154 women dumped on the army, only 24 have passed their basic training. “Between 10-15% of females recruited for an infantry job are able to complete their basic courses”, said a retired army officer”, and “Already 25% of those women who have passed have already been medically downgraded. This program is a disaster and it should be ended now before it gets any bigger”.

And to think that the big wigs are “campaigning hard” to recruit these useless, dangerous people. Senate estimates confirm this information. Meanwhile, Lt. General Campbell has admitted that there is currently a 'women first' recruiting campaing; the will take men if there are no women!

Sheesh. Quotas to defend Australia! Campbell also admitted that NO RESEARCH HAD BEEN DONE on whether or not females on the front line would work.

These days, I'm not sure that young men would risk their own lives to protect women toy soldiers (and neither should they) because young blokes have stopped standing up on buses for them and holding doors open because of the way females treat them these days.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 31 May 2018 11:20:44 AM
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Dear ttbn,

I'm so sorry that you think so negatively about me.
But as I've stated previously, that's something
over which I have no control.

I guess I should be flattered that
you single me out for your attention. What is it
that attracts you about me.
You stalk me on this forum.
So by all accounts - you are a fan.

And your argument that I say "nothing" doesn't quite
wash.

If I say nothing as you claim
then that really should not concern you at all.
But obviously it does. People
whose opinions we don't respect - don't usually
make the sort of an impact that I appear to be making
on you as you consistently feel obliged to attack.
Ah well, I guess that's something I shall have to
learn to live with.

BTW: I don't just quote from the ABC, I quote from a
wide variety of source and experts - including the
Lowey Institute, Spectator, Guardian, Business Insider,
Australian Financial Review, Herald Sun, The Australian,
Wikipedia, Time, LA Times, Washington Post, New York Times,
Catholic Education Centre, Haartz, the conversation, the Sydney
Morning Herald, and many, many others to numerous to
mention.

What is currently concerning though -
is that stereotyping is rife in
today's political debate - and that is unfortunate because it
means that we fail to see the real individuals behind the labels
we impose on them

Therefore - I shall do my utmost to not think of you as
an illogical, abusive, poster, who should be ignored.
I shall seriously take on board everything that you've said
about me. And I shall certainly try my utmost not to
challenge the superior male dominance that is so splendidly
displayed by certain members on this forum.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 May 2018 12:25:22 PM
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Foxy,

There is nothing special about you, and you may of course think what you wish of me, if you really need to think about me at all. You have - not very subtley - hinted that I am "abusive" and "illogical", and you believe that anyone who criticises you is 'negative'. You also state that you can't do anything about it.

I note that you couldn't resist bringing the male/female thing up. I would have thought that you were a bit old to be indulging in that sort of girly nonsense.

BTW: you are not bring stalked; you are a bit old for that, too.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 31 May 2018 4:26:20 PM
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Dear ttbn,

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and a screen.
But its hard to write a balanced response that
people will actually want to read.

I wish you better success in the future.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 May 2018 5:06:16 PM
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cont'd ...

BTW:

Your constant references to age - tells me
that you're arguing on an emotional level.
Not a mature intelligent one.

Try a different approach just for varieties
sake. This one's wearing a bit thin.
By the way - I've never claimed to be "special",
But your references to it - gives you away.
You are a definite fan!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 May 2018 5:10:19 PM
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You are getting sad now Foxy. Give it away and retain some dignity while you can. I will assist you by ignoring your posts.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 31 May 2018 5:15:20 PM
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Dear ttbn,

Betcha can't.

You're far too angry.

And your motivations are rather obvious. Plus
you have an inherent inability to constuctively
argue. So you're going to keep trying to think
of more come-backs to put me down.

Good-luck, old timer.

You're sooo entertaining.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 May 2018 5:27:46 PM
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ttbn, don't bother.
If there is one thing I have learned about people during my 67 years of interacting with them, is that their beliefs are too well entrenched to suddenly change because of a few words either written or spoken by someone else.
Especially when the speaker is right.
People are too invested in a particular belief or agenda, usually because they have had contact or become too involved or wasted too much time and to suddenly change direction makes a mockery of their beliefs and sometimes their lives.
This current topic is a clear example of this.
The 'real' women could not care less about joining the military.
The maggots on the other hand, driven by petulance and an air of superiority that drives them to compete with men, believe the opposite.
People like foxy and her followers, have a deep rooted belief that women are somehow inferior to men if they are not allowed to compete with men.
They refuse to accept that women cannot compete with men.
Women started this disgusting mantra that we think women are a lesser person than men.
NO! For crying out loud, I'll say it again.
They are 'different' than men.
Surely even the maggots have to agree with that statement.
All that follows must be referred back to this paragraph for analysis to see if it passes the anti PC test.
I can't believe that there are such absurdly stupid people out there who actually think women are up to the task of being a soldier or marine and so on.
All you PC pundits stop and think about what you are pushing.
Remember two things when considering life decisions; Reason and Common Sense!
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 31 May 2018 7:52:29 PM
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I feel obliged to correct a few false statements
made by ALTRAV -
because reason and common sense should indeed prevail
in discussions on a public forum such as this one.
Opinions may be great but you need to back them up
that what you say is true by citing your sources.
Rigid stereotyping and
sweeping generalisations don't have much credibility
and won't be taken seriously. Or at least they shouldn't
be.

1) Myself, and most of the females that I know do not
have a "deep-rooted" belief that women are somehow
inferior (or superior) to men. We all have husbands,
sons, male grand-children. Whom we love and respect
dearly.

2) My views - and those of my female friends are not
set in concrete. We're finding that the more we learn -
there's even more to learn. We like to keep an open
mind.

3) None of us have ever had to compete with men. We've been
judged on our own merit. We're usually not interested
in the same things anyway.

4) None of us know of any women soldiers, football players,
butchers, truck-drivers, wharfies, taxi-drivers, and so
on. We do have male
family members that were in the military though.

Your views ALTRAV - are rooted in generalisations. You totally
ignore the differences among individuals. You seem to have
a negative attitude towards many individual women believing
that they are all the same. Your concepts are very vague
and sweeping in their scope. Your thoughts are prejudiced,
irrational, illogical and inconsistent.

I can't help but wonder what sort of a family environment you
grew up in. Were your parents cold, aloof, disciplinarian?
Because you certainly acquired your mind-set from someone.
Sad really. Still I won't judge. There are probably good
reasons for why you think the way you do.

I wish you well. If you have daughters - may they grow up
to be decent human beings. That's all we can expect of
our children. And of each other. Our genders should not be
a battle-field.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 May 2018 8:31:28 PM
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What is annoying about debates and discussions is that the proponents 'cherry pick'.
I make clear statements and I don't have to prove any of them because I am man enough to stand by them.
One has to ask why it is relevant to prove something when I have learned that there are plenty of articles which argue both sides of a topic.
So I will only make the odd reference based on a reasonable and sensible conclusion, the rest are merely speculation, and yes even the ones foxy puts up as reference or the result of research.
BTW foxy, I might remind one and all that you and I are not the topic, so I find it somewhat disappointing that you would lower your guard as many others have done, to make personal observations about a fellow commentor.
Back to topic.
I would like to hear anyone's justification for women in battle, as this is a big part of this topic.
I doubt there is a salient point to justify this latest PC rubbish, like all the rest of them.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 31 May 2018 9:13:32 PM
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altrav: I can't believe that there are such absurdly stupid people out there who actually think women are up to the task of being a soldier or marine and so on.

Courier Mail. News. Page 09. May 31. 2018. "Women not yet a perfect fit for Army Combat Roles"

Quote from the article. "Figures released to the Senate Estimates show 10 women joined a female only Preconditioning Program aimed at getting them fit enough for regular training, but two dropped out.

Just 72 of the 152 women recruited to be infantry soldiers who started recruit training at Kapooka managed to pass the Basic Course. Of those, 24 were able to complete the infantry's basic initial training Course at Singleton.

10 have been posted to 1 R.A.R. in Townsville. I saw them while I was there."

They have not yet been tested in the Infantry Skills Competition which will be held later this year. This is bloody hard, believe me. It's held over 20klm of pure endurance, blood, sweat & tears. I've seen grown very fit men cry.

I suppose if it's anything like the annual fitness test it'll be downgraded for the women, as it was when I was in. One mile in 6 minutes was taken to 8 minutes. The 9 Miler, Full Pack was taken from 1.5 hours to 2, & the 20 Miler full Pack was extended to, 'as long as you finished," for the ladies.

Lowering the Standard? I think so. I've seen men discharged because they couldn't complete the Course. "Unfit for Active Service."

This will be interesting.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 31 May 2018 10:36:41 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

You were the one who brought me (and my followers - whoever they may be?) into
your recent post on page 26 - and you continued from there.
I merely responded to your false accusations.

Now back to the topic.

As I stated many times - I am not pushing any agenda.
Neither are any of the females I know. And we certainly
do not advocate that women should be in the army, or
anywhere else for that matter. That is none of our concern.
We're too busy with our own jobs, and families, to worry
about anyone else's.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 May 2018 10:55:42 PM
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cont'd ...

If you don't want me to respond - keep me out of
your posts. But you can't go on making statements
about me and expect me to keep quiet.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 May 2018 10:57:39 PM
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Jayb, this is only a 'taste' of the PC crap we are having to endure just so that a few selfish maggots get their way, at the expense of so many other things, not just people.
So many things have been down graded to accommodate these maggots, with no actual benefit or useful result.
In fact the opposite is the case.
What is of concern to me is that in the case of the military, there are lives at stake ultimately.
Instead of strengthening morale, this will severely compromise it and the safety of the lives involved.
Now posing, bragging and showing off and trying to prove a moot point, is one thing, but when you start putting lives at risk for the sake of some sick, misguided and arrogant PC backed reason, then you've gone too far.
Let's hope nothing happens to the men faced with these unconscionable decisions by stupid generals led by the sick and demented PC brigade.
To the commentor who spoke so highly about this guy, he is a moron and just another PC puppet like most of the fools who believe in PC.
Hero, my arse!
As someone already said, it is the men who put their lives on the line, that are the heroes.
Not this moron!
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 31 May 2018 11:17:04 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

Of course you have deep seated issues, no one who doesn't would get so triggered with the notion of a woman having any semblance of power over you.

Perhaps it is your southern European roots. There the women can be very domineering. Were you confused as a child by the tough love being dished out? It is hard when the main female figure in your life yells and bullies you. I think it was Hitler who when remarking on the lack of fortitude of the Italian forces put it down to an upbringing characterised by a powerful female figure.

On the other hand both Hitler and Mussolini had quite domineering mothers and both attempted hyper-masculinity in order to mask a 'sissy' tendency.

Do you have sissy tendency which require masking ALTRAV? It certainly appears that way. By calling women you feel threatened by 'maggots' it makes it difficult to assess you in any other light.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 1 June 2018 12:04:27 AM
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SteeleRedux, I will go off topic once more so as to not give the impression you may actually know what you speak of.
Let me see, oh right, the answer to your comical remarks are of course, NO, NO, NO, NO, and I think, aaaahh, NO.
What you perceive are in fact projections of your own account.
I think you may have issues and this is why you seek approval and follow and stick up for females, (maggots).
Now let me educate you once more.
If you are a truly level headed, mature guy, you will recall some of my previous posts where I hold women to high esteem.
They are a beautiful and loving creature.
In the same post I describe the 'maggots', just as they are, they are an arrogant, man hating, self engrossed, and more, 'female'.
They do not deserve to be called women.
They have been the bane of our lives.
So many people have suffered because of their arrogant selfishness. The details of which are historical and do not need me to recall them.
So SteeleRedux, you have to decide are you going to follow the good women or the bad maggots.
Now let's get back on topic, there's a good lad.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 1 June 2018 12:40:02 AM
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Dear Steele,

On the subject of women and the Australian military here's a few
facts that can't be denied:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Australian_military

And -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-21/timeline-of-women-in-the-australian-defence-force/6398388
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 June 2018 4:49:13 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

Just look at the way you talk mate. You have repeatedly called women 'creatures'. Not the same as the rest of 'us'. You have this high ideal in your head. Any women who don't measure up to it are referred to as 'maggots'. Can't you see the pattern?

This really is serial killer territory my friend. Once you decide something is less than human the inhibitions of doing them harm is significantly diminished. The Rwandan Tutsi where deemed 'cockroaches' by their murderers. You have described your chosen undesirables as maggots, surely an escalation.

Once again I advise seeking assistance to correct this abnormal and potentially harmful mindset. Please keep us informed of your progress.

Dear Foxy,

Thanks. This might also be of interest, just another maggot it seems. I would like seeing ALTRAV saying that to this woman's face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Duckworth
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 1 June 2018 6:17:21 PM
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Dear Steele,

What an amazing human being.

Thank You.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 June 2018 6:23:49 PM
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Steelie: You have repeatedly called women 'creatures'. Not the same as the rest of 'us'.

I don't think AT meant all women. Most women are 'ladies" & as such would be & are treated with respect at all times.

The ones like those who wear Pink Vagina's on their heads & flash their Tits whilst screaming obscenities in public are the ones he's talking about, & I agree. They are maggots & I wouldn't urinate on them if they were on fire. Deserving the respect of no-one, including you Foxy.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 1 June 2018 7:30:49 PM
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Hi Steele and Foxy,

We certainly have a couple of Howdy Doody's here. Describing women as "maggots", Steele correct, these pair need professional help. Hopefully they seek that necessary help before its too late, which may well be the case. Possibly they are too far gone already.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 1 June 2018 7:51:07 PM
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I'll take back part of my last Post.

Maggots actually perform a useful service for the World Eco System by cleaning up rotten meat. These women are the rotten meat of Society.

Not, in any way, to be confused with 'Ladies.'
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 1 June 2018 7:58:39 PM
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JayB,

You are full of it mate. This is what ALTRAV said;

“The 'real' women could not care less about joining the military. The maggots on the other hand, driven by petulance and an air of superiority that drives them to compete with men, believe the opposite.”

So any female who deigns to join the military full stop is a maggot in his eyes.

This would include Australia's first female squadron leader;

“Linda Corbould was raised in Tasmania, Australia and joined the RAAF in 1981. At this time she wanted to become a pilot, but women were barred from this role. In a 2018 interview, Corbuld said that the recruitment officers "pretty much laughed at me" when she told them about her ambition. Instead, she served as an air traffic controller until 1990 when pilot training was opened up to women. During this period she took up skydiving, and became a national champion in the sport. In 1985 she represented Australia at the skydiving world championships which were held in Turkey.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Corbould

Was the Russian sniper (one of many) Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko who is credited with over 300 kills in WW2 a maggot?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

Were the “Night Witches” all maggots? Flying up to 8 sorties a night, without parachutes, in obsolete wooden biplanes over enemy lines?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches

These are not women “like those who wear Pink Vagina's on their heads & flash their Tits whilst screaming obscenities in public” but professionals who want to serve their country. And you are making excuses for a bloke calling them maggots.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 1 June 2018 9:43:19 PM
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Jayb, in staying on topic, you have grasped the jist of my comments. Thank you. Now to further elaborate.
As I have said many times for every example presented in favour of a topic there are always many more to dis-prove same topic or statement. The mere fact that the heading for this topic is an affirmation and not a question is a sign of compliance to the topic.
The detractors wish to push a PC agenda in allowing the, (why do you think they have been called the weaker sex) ok, 'females' into the military? Happy?
Women, like men know their place in society and what is expected of each.
Nothing will change the fact that females were not allowed into the military for many obvious reasons.
Then along comes the PC brigade and suddenly all the previous reasons for not allowing them in are just ignored and forgotten.
The fact that men are put at risk if women are in the mix, is historic, well documented and on the record, but you won't find the maggot brigade admitting to it's existence.
I am curious, why would a female want to do something they know they can't do and is the job of men because of that reason.
What we are seeing is politics at it's worst.
Also, PC at it's worst.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 1 June 2018 9:51:56 PM
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Steelie: These are not women “like those who wear Pink Vagina's on their heads & flash their Tits whilst screaming obscenities in public” but professionals who want to serve their country.

Exactly my point & they were ladies at the same time & very worthy of respect in every way.

Steelie: And you are making excuses for a bloke calling them maggots.

He did not call these types of women 'maggots' he was referring to the Pink Vagina Hat variety. Actually, I call them much worse. C^*+heads with Pus fa brains & that'd be being kind.

But you knew that. You just chose to ignore & deliberately misinterpret. As is your want. Do you have a Vagina Hat?
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 1 June 2018 10:04:46 PM
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JayB,

No I quoted him word for word. On the other hand you seem to be able to do something reserved for lovers; read each other's minds and by doing so declare his real position was not the one he put in black and white.

Well you two love birds can reinterpret for each other all you like but the rest of us will judge you on the actual words you put on the page.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 1 June 2018 10:10:38 PM
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SteeleR, yes it would.
Why would anyone other than the females involved give a rats?
Why do you care?
I call them maggots as it has been clearly stated because they are not needed today they simply want to be challenging the status quo.
The, 'look at moy' factor.
Now the women you describe were put into service because, wait for it, the men were scarce because they were fighting, in the war.
These maggots you put up as if special are not needed and there are plenty of men out there who will outperform them every time so please don't try to make a point by attempting to mislead people.
Look, for crying out loud just accept the fact that this whole female thing is PC driven with a selfish agenda and has no real value other than for those who stand to benefit from it.
You can continue to throw up examples you believe will help you make your case, it won't help because the basis of this premise is so flawed it is taking the pro camp a lot of time and effort to try to maintain a valid and convincing argument.
Just because the maggots want something, just like a spoilt child, they should not be allowed to have it.
BTW, the examples you gave, are not women.
Women don't do the things you described.
At best I would describe them as females.
It appears you and others don't quite get my meaning or the difference between women and females (or maggots).
Think about it or go back and read my previous posts, in the interest of clarity.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 1 June 2018 10:26:55 PM
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JayB,

ALTRAV said;

"These maggots you put up as if special are not needed and there are plenty of men out there who will outperform them every time so please don't try to make a point by attempting to mislead people."

There you go. Clear enough for you now?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 1 June 2018 10:38:52 PM
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SteeleR, what is YOUR point?
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 1 June 2018 11:03:52 PM
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Well reading between the lines and the actual lines themselves I would hazard a guess that the point is that you and JayB can go consummate.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 2 June 2018 12:44:06 AM
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Have you not heard the words, 'STAY ON TOPIC'?
Another example of having to simplify the message so that you can take your time and read it slowly.
How many times do I have to say it.
Any personal outbursts or attacks have NO effect as they are counter-productive and contribute nothing to the topic or discussion.
If my calling certain types of people 'maggots', it is to describe them in the most degrading manner for daring to make demands on society when they are clearly not entitled to make them.
I do not subscribe to ANYONE making demands by attempting emotional blackmail
The pro camp believe they are entitled to be considered as equals for any job traditionally done by men.
How stupid or arrogant can one be to demand they can qualify for admission into the military.
The part which makes my case for me and vindicates me is they had to dumb down or diminish the minimum of testing criteria to accommodate these spoilt brats.
If you have not got it yet it is only because you choose not to get it.
There are a million other reasons why females should be rejected from men's jobs.
You know what they are so I don't have to waste my time suggesting any.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 2 June 2018 2:39:46 AM
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Steele, the only effective solution for this pair of blowflies is a can of 'Mortein'. Agree.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 2 June 2018 5:58:44 AM
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I find it hard to critique your work when you insist on going off topic. I'll jump in before someone beats me to the point;
How about discussing/responding with some intelligent rapport about the topic in question.
I feel selfish in that I am diverting all your attentions from the topic, which I might add is a very sensitive and controversial one.
So don't waste your time on me.
I know the other commentors don't find me as interesting as you guys do. More importantly, NO-ONE cares.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 2 June 2018 7:21:10 AM
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Steel redux is rusting & de-laminating, help it Paul1045,
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 June 2018 1:06:15 PM
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Dear individual,

On the contrary. Steel Redux
is this forum's man of steel.
He's doing a great job. He's flying high. He's far above
those trying to pull him down. And,
they should be honoured that he's
even responding to their posts.
However he's a gentleman - and that's what gentlemen do.
He raises the standard of discussions for us all.
We need more like him to balance the toxicity that
is currently being displayed here.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 1:55:10 PM
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the point is that you and JayB can go consummate.
Foxy,
If this last post by our own Mr Rustconverter is the standard of Gentlemen & raising the standard of discussion then it is in fact you who should seriously reconsider any loyalty to it.
I can tell you're a considerate person but please don't fall into the trap of approving the resorting to ridicule when sensible retort is in short supply or in rustconverter's case, exhausted. It is in fact Steele Redux itself who is always the first to ridicule but then gets really dirty when it turns into a slanging match.
This Nation has not yet needed its Defence Force as it will need it to fight the enemy from within before long. To allow PC to undermine the Defence Force is akin to Treason in my book.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 June 2018 3:07:08 PM
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Dear individual,

All I really want to see on this forum is a bit
of civility. How on earth are any of us going
to get anything across to each other if we begin
by disrespecting the opinions of others and
then insulting people. I was shocked by some of
the comments made in this discussion. They had
no merit whatsoever because they were so ugly.

However, this has got to stop. Seriously.
We need to not look upon each other as "enemies"
but rather try to understand what is really being
said - and not put our own spin or false assumptions
onto things. And that can only come - if we put our
own prejudices to one side. Heavens, we may even
actually learn something. But if we begin our posts
with insults - then we lose all credibility and can't
be taken seriously.

Take the case of Jayb stating that he wouldn't urinate
on some females if they were on fire. Gee whiz.
Where did that come from? (he included me in that group).
I could have retorted that - his urination would not have
helped anyone who was on fire - 'cause lifting a leg
wouldn't have done much good (smile). But I didn't
respond. Anyway, if you can't get through to some people,
best to leave well enough alone, I guess.
As my husband tells me - "Walk away."
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 4:01:34 PM
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It appears there are certain people who wish to de-rail this topic so as to halt any further comments being leveled against it.
By continually going off topic and either stopping to pat each other on the back or try as they may to denigrate those who's comments do not align themselves to them.
Sometimes the banter is almost too low brow to even bother reading. Sometimes the sucking up is so excessive, those involved should get a room.
They are disruptive and display an air of superiority as if to imply that their opinion is the only one and totally reject anyone else's. In fact more often than not an egregious negative response is given without responding to the commentors direct questions or points.
As much as these commentors want to be seen as the bastions of all they comment on, sadly they are too narrow in their scope of wisdom and knowledge, where-by they have to research everything, yet have experienced nothing.
Because they have a pre-concieved opinion they believe that what they push is dogmatic.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 2 June 2018 4:13:34 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

If you're talking about yourself and Jayb in your
last post - then fair enough. You are to be
Congratulated for at last being man enough to
admit some errors that have been made. I admit
that I should not have taken what was being
said so personally.

All that has been asked of both of you from
the very start has been - not to make false
accusations and assumptions. To argue in a logical
manner because sound reasoning will conquer
unreasonable generalisations every time. Women
like men - are different. Not all women are
feminists, not all women want to compete with men,
not all women are interested in taking over "male"
positions and certainly not all women want to serve
in the military. Examples have been given of the
ones that do - merely to illustrate the point that
just like their male colleagues - everyone, male or
female, is worthy of being treated with civility and
respect.

Anyway, I shall take my husband's advice because I
suspect that I am wasting my time talking to you.
But just before I do go - I want to let you know
that my opinions are not set in concrete. I am not
looking to convert anybody. And I certainly do not
think of myself as being superior in any shape or
form. I don't have the answers to the big questions
in life. I'm still on my own road to discovery.
I'm no pundit. I have only my own life experiences
to go on. I have encountered some amazing souls
on my journey through life - and finally, I think
that humans are the most extra-ordinary creatures
and a big part of me still wants to reach an even
greater understanding about who we are.

I wish you well in your future postings.
I bear no ill-will towards you.
May love and not hate rule your heart.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 4:39:07 PM
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I know i am responding, again, off topic and this really must stop.
I felt it necessary to once more correct a mis-guided commentors response.
Foxy, you are smart enough to know who my comments are leveled at.
I respond so as to ensure the true implications of my comments are not mis-directed as you have clearly attempted to do.
The main reason I have been forced to respond off topic once again is because you insist on not reading my posts, because if you did you would find that I have constantly singled out certain females, not all women, as you suggest and try to twist the facts to suite your agenda. This mindset is obvious throughout your comments.
To your last post.
The beginning is a description of yourself and those of like mind.
The last sentence of the first paragraph is most welcome and is acceptable.
Your second paragraph is a travesty.
I absolutely refute your charges and strongly advise you to read my posts and comments in totality and not cherry pick.
This is typical of how so many women talk.
I will use words and inflections appropriate to the intensity and veracity of the point I am making.
By using words which some people find uncomfortable, good that means I succeeded in getting my point across.
Now if your going to try to get one over me you had better quote me correctly and truthfully, because as soon as you over-reach, as you continually do, your point is lost and your comments rejected.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 2 June 2018 5:12:56 PM
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I'm impressed with the level of knowledge and experience in this discussion. I remember talking with a Naval Clearance Diver said that they used to be bastardized in the 70's to weed out the weak candidates. I questioned him on it and he said "the enemy isn't going to treat you gently". As I understand torture training is standard in special forces. Our special forces are some of the best in the world. It's not an easy thing as I understand to kill another human being or to face imminent death. The SAS train with live rounds. It takes a certain psychology to thrive in such an environment. Yes they have to have discipline but they also need to break out. They already have discipline in situations that would leave most of us curling up and vomiting in a corner. In a boxing ring most people will turn and run away rather than meeting the blow and countering - its instinctive. The purpose of military training is to overcome this conditioning. Even then green troops are weak. Perhaps their symbols (Skulls, etc) are part of this psychology. Warriors and Soldiers throughout history have had a certain reputation. They're somewhat damaged. Sun Tzu said "military action is important to the nation - it is the ground of life and death, the path of survival and destruction". These soldiers often cannot adapt to civilian life. They protect us - maybe we have broken them - but it could be unavoidable. The real world isn't always pretty - hard decisions are necessary.
Sun Tzu also says "When the civilian leadership is ignorant ... (they take) ... away victory by deranging the military. Clausewitz is also instructive. Cheers.
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 2 June 2018 5:43:28 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

I advise you to go back to your own posts and to
my responses to your posts - on pages 26 and 27.

Read the comments
that you made about me - and then my responses
and explanations to correct your false
assumptions.

You were the one -
making personal observations about a fellow contributor
(me) - I merely responded. You were the one going off
topic. And what resulted - you have no one to blame but
yourself. I have now tried to extend an olive branch
to you. Yet you persist in seeing things only from
your own point of view - where you're not guilty of
anything. You accept no responsibility for anything.
And you're not prepared to modify your judgements.

In any case - the art of reasoned, intelligent debate is
a skill not easily acquired. You're very generous in
giving advice to other people and criticising how they
post. However you would do well to take your
own advice in your postings. Because -
if you don't read what other
contributors are actually writing and accept their
explanations - this problem
will persist - and continue to result in the
total break-down of communication as has been the case
thus far.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 6:39:38 PM
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he wouldn't urinate on some females if they were on fire.
Foxy,
I know plenty such females & even more blokes that actually deserve that but I myself, wouldn't do it but I'd not hesitate to chip in for some fuel to pour onto the fire.

I know this sounds inhumane to many but what else would work on such inhumane beings ? Fight fire with fire still stands up well to such arguments. Have you noticed that lately no western hostages have been taken by ISIS ? Because they learnt their lesson & stopped frequenting these places. See, how simply some problems are solved ?
Our society has well over-stepped the mark on compassion. we now have created a monster that thrives & grows on this misplaced compassion.
Compassion is for victims not for perpetrators.
If our Armed Forces are under the same yoke as this misplaced compassion then the proponents of PC & it's consequences must be prepared to accept the consquences if the soldiers are only supplied with rubber bullets.. We can not tie the hands of soldiers & then blame them for failing to protect us. It's a very similar situation with our Police.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 June 2018 7:15:17 PM
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Foxy, now I am annoyed.
I have gone back and read 26 and 27.
My comments are clear and to the point.
No ambiguity.
If you want to know why I slag off at people, well here is a clear example.
I have accused you and others of like mind of certain things.
I have explained why.
You on the other hand are showing your petulant side by attempting to reject what I said by insisting that I am wrong.
This goes to the heart of my point.
If I say that females should not be in the military, I use clear and plain english quoting reasons why.
You, and others, on the other hand believe they should because of some insane reasoning that you have a right to be there.
You did not address any of the points I gave in an attempt to make or win your point.
You merely kept insisting that women were free to make choices today. I have proven unequivocally that your position and the generals is wrong.
You refuse to accept it, so be it, that's your prerogative, but do not berate me because you have no 'real' and viable facts to prove your argument.
This will be the umpteenth time I have explained my case.
Please do not bother to respond.
If your inclined to do so then before you do, go back and read my posts, then read them again and again till you actually allow my words and sentiment to permeate into your mind.
Having done so, please move on to the next topic.
We can joust again about another topic.
This one has been done to death and there is nothing more to say about it.
I believe the 'Nays' have it.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 2 June 2018 7:30:48 PM
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Dear individual,

I understand what you're saying and I'm sure that
all soldiers - whoever they may be are trained well
enough so that they know how to do their job - and they
do it very well. The Australian military has an excellent
reputation everywhere - because they are so professional.
I haven't read any clause or any newspaper article where
fellow soldiers have made derogatory comments about
their female colleagues.
I'm sure that they value each other's contributions.
I doubt very much whether any of them would urinate on
any colleague because they happened to be female, gay
or transgender - (Cate McGregor).

Perhaps we can learn something from that?

BTW: Doesn't the ADF march in uniform in the Sydney "Mardi Gras,"
every year? As I believe so does the Police Force.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 7:33:44 PM
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Canem Malum.

Canem: Dog.

Malum: Apple or Evil/Wrong/Large.

These translations are valid depending on the context;

Evil Dog (Mad Dog), Big Evil (Very Evil), Big Dog, Wrong Dog, Big Apple, Wrong Apple, Evil Apple.

I did Latin at School about 60 years ago. I still remember a lot of it.

I agree with your post. At least it's on topic & hasn't been Hijacked by a cluster of Pink Vagina Hats.

Foxy: Take the case of Jayb stating that he wouldn't urinate
on some females if they were on fire. Gee whiz.

Foxy: I did not. You included yourself. Are you one of the Pink Vagina Hat Variety? I think not. As for Steelie. I think so, even though it professes to be male.

AT: Jayb, this is only a 'taste' of the PC crap we are having to endure just so that a few selfish maggots get their way, at the expense of so many other things, not just people.

Is this what you are referring to Steelie?

I see that as AT referring to the Pink Vagina Hat Variety. If you see that as meaning all women that interpretation is deliberately wrong & you know it.

Also I did say, "I don't think AT meant all women. Most women are 'ladies" & as such would be & are treated with respect at all times.

The ones like those who wear Pink Vagina's on their heads & flash their Tits whilst screaming obscenities in public are the ones he's talking about, & I agree. They are maggots & I wouldn't urinate on them if they were on fire.

Jayb1: Deserving the respect of no-one, including you Foxy."

Foxy: Where did that come from? (he included me in that group).

Sorry Foxy, the last bit was badly written. I Meant that Ladies, like yourself, Could not possibly or would not have any respect for the Pink Vagina Hat Variety. My apologies.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 2 June 2018 7:58:56 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

I'm sorry that you're annoyed.

I think we've been arguing
at cross-purposes and have totally
misunderstood each other. I'm sure that you
are a decent misunderstood bloke.

I look forward to our next robust discussion.
Have a good evening.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 8:01:24 PM
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Dear Jayb,

It looks like I misunderstood you as well.

My apologies.

Thank You for explaining.

I thoroughly disapprove of any sort
of extremism - female or male.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 8:07:42 PM
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cont'd ...

Dear Jayb,

"Canem Malum" - roughly translated means -
"Lock that bad dog up."
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 June 2018 8:26:00 PM
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Call a dog a bad name ...
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 2 June 2018 8:42:45 PM
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But my Latin isn't as good as Jayb or Foxy. :~
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 2 June 2018 8:44:40 PM
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Canem Malum, it is refreshing to read some home truths for a change.
It has been suggested that there is no evidence or articles of any derogatory comments about females in the armed forces.
CM I would hope you can see why, even if others choose not to.
Because no-one wants to be singled out and be seen as Politically Incorrect, and I think the hierarchy would punish anyone who even raised the topic let alone have it on the record.
PC is censoring far beyond it's purview.
This is a clear example of what I have been attempting to get across to some of the commentors.
Just because there is no evidence of something does not mean it is not so.
PC is a very dangerous tool in today's world.
We are not privy to the truth any more because of it.
Articles and publications, even research material cannot be trusted any more because of PC.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 3 June 2018 2:19:44 AM
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Dear ALTRAV,
It can be hard living in a PC world.
Read Robert Whitacker -Why Johnny Can’t Think: America’s Professor-Priesthood.

There are differences between Men and Women - the question is relevence in the situation - I'm not an expert but PC can make it difficult to collect data.
Men and women's brains are physically different apparently due to the amounts of testosterone in the womb (famous failure story here). They have a different chromosome (47) - its been said that 50% of our genes are the same as a pumpkin. There is different conditioning - some believe that this can or should be changed (a subtle point). Nature or nurture. Some environmental factors are so close to nature even though most would consider them nurture - such as the cultural meaning of gender. We have brilliance such as with CRISPR gene tech but as Jennifer Doudna admits in her TED talk there are wide gaps in our knowledge. Language must seem to older people as a foreign thing due to political correctness, this reframing seems designed to abuse certain segments of our community. A rose is no longer a rose - if it smells, looks, acts like a rose - it's still not a rose. Common sense is no longer sense.

In the army part of the training is to get everyone to act the same so that they can be commanded in a battle array. They dress the same, march the same, they are generally the same sex - they can be commanded. There are men that are unable to conform to this regimented standard - but part of the training uses subtle and strong means to force recruits into the mold. At the end they are expected to do as they are told and not to think.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 3 June 2018 5:53:00 AM
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General ordering a map location expect them there (see Sun Tzu also female army). The general wants simplicity for battle. The "cognitively loaded" general with respect to the enemy general - all other things equal - will lose. The general commands a million soldiers like they were their own limbs. Having both sexes in the army brings into the army the wonderful complexity of the community. Being sexual beings creates issues but military campaigns are supposed to be short - a calculated risk. Generals probably believed that sexuality not of the army but of civilian life. Modern armies have vestiges of Rome. There is talk of the professionalization of the army - it seems that going back to Rome an expansionist culture there was always a core of professionals in the army - even if enlistment swelled in wartime. During the middle ages perhaps there was a smaller proportion of professional soldiers.

Some of us would like to see more support for families in the ADF - this could be a way of smoothing out the behavior of personnel. Machiavelli in The Prince talked about the unsettling rotation of soldiers families. The ADF have a mixed success with families. Perhaps if ADF experience could be dovetailed with the public service it could attract better behavior.

Another view is the ones pushing sexual equality in the military don't want an effective army, or the nation to survive - their phoenix rises to rule the ashes (see Marx, Trotsky).

It can be hard and unfair when I feel excluded from certain parts of society. Sometimes we have to realise as evolutionary biological beings with many millions of years of conditioning - improving on nature is a difficult task. Analytical rather than holistic methods are often bad for optimal solutions. Improvements in scientific understanding and technology help.

Novel things are not always desirable. Unintended consequences of good intentions...

Arthur C Clarke talked about levels of impossibility, Aristotle about empirical knowledge, we have a lot to learn.

Hope this was informative.
Thanks for the feedback ALTRAV
Canem Malem
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 3 June 2018 5:59:39 AM
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Hi Foxy,

The way to prevent extremism in society is to ensure that we live in a fair and just society to begin with.

"Although we debate the meaning of the 'good life', it is impossible without shared ideas about justice and civic virtues"
Michael J. Sandel (political philosophy professor at Harvard University.)

By my way of thinking, being conservative in itself can be extreme. That sounds like a paradox, how can one be conservative and extreme at the same time. When a society suffers a multitude of injustices and one chooses to do nothing about those injustices, simply wanting to maintain the status quo, then one is fueling extremism.

What Australia has is many moderate progressives that agitate for incremental changes in society. This is a good thing, it prevents conservative stagnation which will ultimately lead to an unjust society, and the rise of extremism.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 3 June 2018 6:30:53 AM
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Call a dog a bad name ...

Canem Malum,
Yeah & the mongrel calls in all the other bad dogs ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 3 June 2018 8:09:55 AM
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AT: Because no-one wants to be singled out and be seen as Politically Incorrect,

PC wasn't a Subject when I went to School. It wasn't in the Curriculum back then. I've never been signed off on it so I can't be held responsible. :-P

CM: There are differences between Men and Women.

Yep, last time I looked but it's getting harder to tell now-a-days.

p1405: The way to prevent extremism in society is to ensure that we live in a fair and just society to begin with.

You'll just have to explain that to the Lefty/PC/Greenies. They need it more than anyone.

It's nice to see a calm analytical voice among the rabble. ;-)

I still haven't see a comment from the RVH's about the Gun Truck Iconography.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 3 June 2018 8:42:51 AM
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Jayb if we go too far on this we probably need to create a new thread on PC. I'm not going to judge/ argue with the "Lefty/PC/Greenies" - And I'm not saying that my comments are in relation to any "rabble" on this thread - its a waste of time because they already have the answers. People that have all the answers capture the "air time" wasting every ones time - they repeat the same things that everyone knows until everyone gives up. Best to focus on the positive - its easy to ignore people on the web sometimes I even do it intentionally. There are always people around that are willing to learn something outside their experience - often they are silent. It can be a painful process to learn new things. I agree its sometimes important to stand up for beliefs. Triage not the ones screaming, but the ones that aren't breathing - hopefully we can get more people breathing. We all have our prejudices. Diametric mentality is surely requisite for wisdom. As I've said in other threads - you don't have to agree with the opinions but once in a while its good to expand our comfort zone, then we become stronger off your opposition (see Voltaire). I'm sure everyone including myself can improve their debating style - its important to exercise judgement in debates. I enjoyed the comments by "Paul1405" on Michael J. Sandel. I don't blame anyone if they are afraid of ideas - political correctness is a powerful alarmist force - you need to have a strong position before making a stand - its sad we've given it power and allowed the focus get so far from common sense. In other times criminal commitment required "intent" - I agree that sometimes ignorance is used as an excuse - but if you analyze the argument in detail it becomes fairly ridiculous. I agree with "Foxy" that its important to read widely in order to have a broad understanding.
When the few hijack the community tyranny occurs. (see US Declaration of Independence, Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Politics)
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 3 June 2018 12:28:40 PM
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Dear Paul1405,

Thank You for your sound reasoning.

There's been such a pushback against political correctness
and I think that is due to the discomfort people feel
talking about other people's issues that they don't fully
understand. And as we know - it's easy to believe in
freedom of speech with those with whom we agree. We like to
be able to be free to say what we want - but if anyone
says anything back - well that's a different story.
I guess that's life. (smile).
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 June 2018 2:10:11 PM
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CM, I do not subscribe to PC. I ask of your thoughts because this topic goes to the heart of PC.
After some analysis I have discovered that PC is a new form of lying. Many mediums attempt to suggest that PC is a more respectful language. This is not the case.
If people cannot have free and frank discussions, the outcome will be anything but the correct one.
PC simply means it's a new form of censorship.
For something as critical as our national security, PC in the military is akin to sabotage.

P.S. A very simple way to describe PC is;
The word 'correct' is very clear in it's meaning and unambiguous.
On the other hand, the words 'politically correct' means something other than correct.
It's immediate meaning means it is 'incorrect'.
And as 'incorrect' carries a negative connotation, so it is that the message being delivered is a lie.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 3 June 2018 9:55:46 PM
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ALTRAV - I've been collecting my thoughts on your question - I sympathize - I am very concerned about PC too - obviously many people feel like you do - It's a broader subject than I initially considered. But I don't think I will be able to answer today. Sorry. Have a check in a few hours I might make a reply then.
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 4 June 2018 12:08:41 AM
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Foxy: There's been such a pushback against political correctness
and I think that is due to the discomfort people feel talking about other people's issues that they don't fully understand.

I don't think it has anything to do with the Discomfort at all. I think it's to do with the sheer stupidity of the whole PC issue. It's a nice PC way of saying it though foxy.

AT: Many mediums attempt to suggest that PC is a more respectful language.

The Mediums were & are wrong & it was & is just another Leftist agenda in trying to destroy our Country.

NEWS, JUST IN:

I guess the whole "Offensive Military Iconography" thing is now Mute Point.

After consulting with the Troops of 1 R.A.R. (Past & Present) at the 50th. Anniversary of the Battle of Coral & the Presentation of the Citation in Townsville earlier this month, the General has had another think & withdrawn his objection to the Iconography. Da daaa!

A win for Common Sense has shone through.

At this point I'd like to get a little childish & say, "Stick that in ya pipe & smoke it."
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 4 June 2018 3:51:35 PM
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Dear Jayb,

The beginning of real education is feeling uncomfortable.
We need to challenge pre-existing ideas. And as we know
free speech is a double-edged sword. After all,
uncensored speech and its cousin, a free press is an ally
of the powerless. At the same time, language has been
used as a weapon of oppression by demagogues.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 4 June 2018 4:03:33 PM
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Jayb, I'm not sure if I made my point correctly.
Where I said,'many mediums attempt to suggest that PC is a more respectful language'.
I am suggesting and have always said that this is BS and just another way for the pro PC brigade to 'sugar coat' what is, as I have just said, a LIE!
I have always said beware of PC.
It is a BAD language and MUST be removed from the broader language before it infects or hijacks the freedom of speech we so badly need to hold so strongly to.
I have always said, if we cannot have a free and frank conversation, the result will be something other than the correct outcome.
The suggestion that PC is a way of being respectful is rubbish.
If I need to make a point and in doing so someone is offended, then too bad.
You must never avoid saying the truth just because you 'might' offend someone.
If they are offended it has something to do with them and not what you said.
If you are wrong they will quickly try to correct you, so don't 'lie' just to 'save face'.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 4 June 2018 4:59:33 PM
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Foxy: At the same time, language has been
used as a weapon of oppression by demagogues.

As it is being used now by the PC/Leftists.

AT: I am suggesting and have always said that this is BS and just another way for the pro PC brigade to 'sugar coat' what is, as I have just said, a LIE!

Agreed. Political Correctness; The ability to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 4 June 2018 5:45:29 PM
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Dear Jayb,

A bit of trivia:

They found out at Indiana University - hard as they
tried - there is no clean end on a turd.

However, they also learned that although you can't
polish a turd - you can roll it in glitter.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 4 June 2018 6:53:38 PM
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Hear, hear to you both. Good to see some levity from such a smelly topic.
Ha Ha, kudos to you both.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 4 June 2018 8:22:24 PM
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Foxy,

"However, they also learned that although you can't
polish a turd - you can roll it in glitter."

As I've pointed out before, it is possible to polish a turd and some of them polish up very well.

I have a sectioned one on my desk as a paperweight and it has some rather pleasing patterns in it.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 4 June 2018 8:40:42 PM
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I guess the whole "Offensive Military Iconography" thing is now Mute Point.

After consulting with the Troops of 1 R.A.R. (Past & Present) at the 50th. Anniversary of the Battle of Coral & the Presentation of the Citation in Townsville earlier this month, the General has had another think & withdrawn his Directive on Iconography.

No comment from anyone. Why is that?
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 4 June 2018 9:38:45 PM
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Jayb, I'm with you, but I remind myself to be humble in victory.
But your sentiments are not wrong as this is just one example as to how people are swayed by PC and either un-informed or over informed people. Ultimately I live in hope that the people will stop believing the BS that is being pushed by certain people.
And so it is that we have to work twice as hard using common sense and reason.
PC does not bode well where the truth is concerned.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 4 June 2018 11:03:45 PM
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ALTRAV - In answer to your question...

In the rise of the “Identity Wars” with many fronts, propaganda, and several powerful weapons - Political Correctness is weapon and propaganda.

Groups not representative of society are potentially a source of revolution and counter- revolution – a Hegelian scenario.

I find talking about treason amusing as "Identity Fighters" gave their loyalty to other principles than Australia long ago – treason has no meaning.

Use “treason” as a weapon if useful - If they use a dagger - cut with gun or axe, as long you draw blood. War is measured in blood. It just stands that different people don’t necessarily care about us and won’t follow the “rules” of our society not matter what the “laws” are. Laws like the military are blunt instruments – people need to grow up in society in order to accept the rules – and if you come from another culture your loyalty is divided. The rules of society often operate by “peer pressure not by law”. Peer pressure doesn’t work when the people aren’t part of the society. We will need allies to fight the battle against identity politics – so the war must consider the public relations aspect.
It’s sad that large parts of the female part of western society compose a large component of the “identity alliance” and seemingly betrayed their birth community. We may live with them – we don’t have to trust them. How do you fight enemies embedded in your own ranks? You can’t trust anyone – this is the environment of the intelligence war. An intelligence war appears more about subtlety than aggression – determine high value targets and destroy them. War is wasteful – but “Identities” want a fight – if we retreat they’ll chase us – its sad that families are divided and weak and poor due to split loyalties. Sun Tzu says if you can divide / tire your enemy while you are resting you will be strong while your enemy is weak – who is dividing families and local communities? They are the real enemy.
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 2:21:00 AM
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If a member of your family is loyal and capable why wouldn’t you promote them according to their abilities for the success of the family? If families are stupid enough not to promote their strength they’ll be pruned from the gene pool. Don’t you want to create a strong local community around your family so that you can protect each other? Now the battle lines are drawn it’s everyone for themselves. Diversity policy is problematic – you can’t have a male group these days – but like Marie Curie in Poland we can form groups in secret. Males have accepted changes in the makeup of our society over the last 100 years. Even men didn’t have the vote in 1854. Men have suffered in society too - they tend to live shorter lives than women. Feminism has become more of a revolution than a reform. Who will carry our culture if Men can’t trust Women. We all can only act on what we see. If we can’t agree we must fight. Let the war begin … the sooner we’re all dead the sooner the peace.

In the military – Should identity politics be allowed to change the general military, the front line troops, the special forces? The front line and special forces need to develop pride in their aggression because as Clausewitz says the aggressive force needs to be directed at the enemy to win. But transport and other branches of the military also need this “killer /devil may care” instinct in order to get equipment across enemy ground to the desperate troops that need them.

It’s great to see that the Chief of the Army is able to see reason. Perhaps there is some small hope in the future.
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 2:26:59 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

We were just playing with words - Jayb and I.
Just having some fun. But I'm happy for you
and your turd.

Personally, my taste is different to yours in
what I collect.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 9:47:52 AM
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//it is possible to polish a turd and some of them polish up very well.//

Lion turds in particular:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI

I think Mythbusters must have been running out of ideas by that point :)
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 10:18:41 AM
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Foxy, 'touche'.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 10:19:08 AM
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Foxy,

It was a gift from Professor Peter Lawrence of the Dept. of Anthropology at Sydney Uni. when I was one of his Undergraduate students.

It is a Coprolite, or fossilized poo, not a rarity (about 10,000 years old) and not worth much in monetary value, but I treasure it as a memory of Peter.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=coprolite+for+sale&rlz=1C1CAFB_enAU718AU718&oq=coprolite&aqs=chrome.4.0j69i57j69i60j0l3.13296j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There are plenty for sale and one can buy them already polished.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 10:22:57 AM
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& still there is no comment on the actual subject of this Post. Steelie is very quite.

I'll try again.

I guess the whole "Offensive Military Iconography" thing is now Mute Point.

After consulting with the Troops of 1 R.A.R. (Past & Present) at the 50th. Anniversary of the Battle of Coral & the Presentation of the Citation in Townsville earlier this month, General Morrison has had another think & withdrawn his Directive on Iconography.

No comment from anyone. Why is that?
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 1:43:10 PM
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They're down in their foxholes or more likely Rear Eschelon Bunkers!!

Anyone see the bit in the papers lamenting the few women thar make it into the Infantry; not enough Amazons.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 2:06:45 PM
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<Just 72 of the 152 women recruited to be infantry soldiers who started recruit training at Kapooka managed to pass the Basic Course. Of those, 24 were able to complete the infantry's basic initial training Course at Singleton. 10 have been posted to 1 R.A.R. in Townsville. I saw them while I was there.">

All have been posted to Battalion Headquarters, none to Sections in a Company. Why is that? They won't have to go out in the field.

<I still haven't see a comment from the RVH's about the Gun Truck Iconography.>

Waiting, waiting. PVH's, Cat got ya tongue huh?

<After consulting with the Troops of 1 R.A.R. (Past & Present) at the 50th. Anniversary of the Battle of Coral & the Presentation of the Citation in Townsville earlier this month, the General has had another think & withdrawn his Directive on Iconography.

No comment from PVH's. Why is that?

Very poor showing for this Subjects discussion. Don't you think.

The PVH's hijacked & deflected the Conversation with their own agenda when they the felt they were losing control of the Subject matter. Again. Don't you think?.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 3:17:31 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Thank You for explaining.

I understand your fascination with fossilized items.
though not of turds. But now I inderstand that it
reminds you of your teacher and friend.

I'm a collector of amber - which is as you know
fossilized resin of pine trees (now extinct) that grew in
northern Europe millions of years ago.
And I have some really
beautiful pieces - some very unusual ones with
fossilized insects trapped in the pieces.

I also have some fossilized separate pieces of fish
relics that my godparents sent to me from Calgary
in Canada. My grandsons are fascinated with those.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 3:25:45 PM
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Dear Jayb,

I don't really know about the various symbols
or how much they meant to the military.
However, apparently it must have meant a great
deal for them to get their Chief to change his
mind on the subject. Good for him that he cares
about his soldiers and listens to their views.
He appears to be a worthy leader.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 3:31:35 PM
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Foxy, really?
I mean, really?
'He appears to be a worthy leader'.
Now I know you don't mean that.
Obviously none of us know the man other than the media stories about him and his alleged achievements.
I now know more about this guy in one stupid act of PC tripe, than I would ever learn through the media and any other 'official' publications.
To summarise; A man in his position should not have made such an obviously stupid and pathetic PC decision only to confirm what a fool he really is by retracting it shortly after.
I have good reason to bag this moron.
Can you imagine? I can. He send troops into battle, only to realise he stuffed up and recalls them all of a sudden, hopefully no-one was killed in the meantime.
This guy is no hero.
He is a fool.
And a dangerous one at that.
He must not be allowed to hold sway over any human beings.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 5:15:47 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

Lieutenant General Angus Campbell has an impressive
background as the following link shows. It says a
great deal about his career stamina:

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/angus-campbell-soldier-public-servant-and-survivor-20180416-p4z9xh.html
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 8:03:09 PM
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AT: To summarise; A man in his position should not have made such an obviously stupid and pathetic PC decision

True but there is not a person on this earth who hasn't made a mistake.

I've made more than plenty, that's why I'm so knowledgeable ;-)

AT: only to confirm what a fool he really is by retracting it shortly after

No, it takes a real Man/Woman/Whatever to admit they were wrong & correct it. The sooner it is admitted the better & the less the fallout.

There were a myriad of Senior Ranks at the Reunion & the Formal Dinner. They got out & mingled with the, Old Diggers who were talking to the Young Diggers. The Old Diggers could speak to the Senior Rank< like Morrison, Cosgrove & retired CO's of 1 R.A.R. & other Units on an equal footing & having the Young Diggers right included in the conversation brings out many of the, on the ground, problems faced by the Young Diggers.

Topics ranged from New equipment, old equipment, effectiveness of weapons in the field verses Trials, to name some. Also among things discussed was the effectiveness in Combat of female soldiers & their expectations in facing the enemy in a firefight, wounded soldiers & privacy issues in the field. Moral issues & the issue of Iconography & nick names.

I believe, or was told, that latter these matters were discussed at length by the Senior Ranks.

There maybe some serious changes coming soon. Look for a new harder hitting Personal Weapon coming to a store near you. But, you never heard it here.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 8:11:57 PM
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Jayb,

Nothing you post deserves the kind of effort it would entail to go and look the thing up myself. If you are so keen on a comment from me then provide a link otherwise stop prattling on.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 9:21:04 PM
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steelie: provide a link otherwise stop prattling on.

Septimius told me. Wait for it!
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 9:32:31 PM
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Foxy, I'm sorry I don't care if the 'system' wants to worship this guy.
Any and all his alleged achievements are as reported by the war machine.
This is a closed door, so we do not have the true measure of the man only his latest faux pas.
Which is not the work of a man with an 'impressive career' history. Jayb, I agree, 'there is not a person on this earth who has not made a mistake'.
That is the kind of leverage one gives the common man making day-to-day mundane decisions.
Not a general who controls, not only thousands of soldiers but through ineptitude and an inability to 'read' certain situations, puts his men in harms way and possibly, a worst case scenario of them being over-run, leaving the country and millions of it's people open to attack and death.
A bit too dramatic I hear you say.
Fine, it has happened, it is on the record, you guys love the word research and seem to have a penchant for looking things up.
Give it a go and see how many 'famous' moronic generals have proven me right.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 11:13:52 PM
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Keep an eye out for Zena the Warrior Princesses.

Comming to an Infantry Unit soon!!
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 5 June 2018 11:59:06 PM
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//not enough Amazons.//

Don't believe the hype; other online retailers are available and do quite a decent job.

A little bit of competition might even be healthy.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 12:29:12 AM
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I pity the Chief of Army - anyone that's been in the forces understands the way things are. But he has to play the political soul destroying game with one dimensional idiots. (amusing when it's not us) Reminds me of Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugs. Altran I think Foxy was trying to "offer an olive branch" and while I agree that putting the troops in danger over PC pathology is unacceptable - Foxy may not have a strong background in the subject matter. Maybe I'm incorrect...
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 7:21:46 AM
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SteeleReedux,
re your challenge to jayb, here's such a link & it's up to you now to comprehend & acknowlege.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 9:35:25 AM
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CM, do not fear.
I am mindful and accepting of foxy's olive branch.
My response was in no way related to her personally but to her comments.
I find gratuitous, praise abhorrent and in the same camp as PC.
During my life I have learned to be harsh on the negatives and completely ignore the positives.
When a person does something good, I do not praise them because I believe that being a good person should be the norm.
You must praise a young child as it is still learning about life and therefore learn the difference between good and bad.
On the other hand the opposite traits should be attacked with such determination as to leave a mark in it's wake.
By doing so I would hope that people learn the difference between good and bad and right and wrong.
All too often personal feelings creep into comments on forums.
I remind commentors that personal feelings play NO productive role in any discussion or debate.
Emotions only distort or deflect or even hijack the direction and certainly the content of the topic in question.
The result, if there is one, will be irrelevant or moot as it is tainted with emotion and not cold hard facts.
So CM do not worry all is well and I have no ill-will towards other commentors on these forums.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 10:11:08 AM
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Dear Canem Malum,

The Chief of the Defence Force's record is on file
for all to see. And it's a distinguished one.
I merely gave a link to just -
one of the sources that provided
the information on his career. This is not based
on my opinion - this is his record and it is on file.

We should always consider different opinions
and different world views - otherwise society would
never progress. As they say - everyone is entitled to
their own opinion. But of course this opens up one's
opinions to criticism. Free speech works both ways.
People have a right to their views and people have a
right to disagree with them. Everyone can say what
they want, but a vital component of free speech is
that you have to be prepared not everybody is going to
agree with what you say
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 11:10:12 AM
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Foxy, I cannot find any recent comments referring to your opinion.
As for my opinions of this general, I have clearly stated my case in responding to CM.
The main crux of it was in reference to his, as you have written, 'distinguished' career or record.
The crux of my comments was that those accolades were in fact not justified if one is to consider his 'about face' on the iconography issue and I cemented this fact in my response to CM.
In short I give the 'average' man the right to make mistakes.
Not a general who holds the lives of so many people in his hands.
The other point I made is that he is not unique and that there are many examples of same throughout history.
I only hope he and his medals get a back room job behind a desk and far away from 'real' warfare decisions.
For all our sakes.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 11:36:14 AM
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Dear ALTRAV,

Try page 39. I gave my opinion about the man
as well as a link further down.

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't agree
with it. And we're both entitled to that.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 11:46:28 AM
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Foxy: The Chief of the Defence Force's record is on file for all to see. And it is a distinguished one. One Commanding Men not PVH's. He probably was a little out of his depth at first in a PVH environment.

AT: In short I give the 'average' man the right to make mistakes.
Not a general who holds the lives of so many people in his hands.

I do not doubt Morrisons distinguished Career at all. He was commanding Men. Now he is in Canberra & working in a different fish Pond, so to speak. One that is rife with Politically Correct Leftist Do-Gooders & PVH's. He may have been convinced to go along with their "Demands" or "it would not go well for the rest of his Career." That sort of business is a significant threat in "The World of Dirty Politics" as I'm sure we all know.

His meeting with Field Commanders & the Personal (Army, Present & Past) in Townsville recently, plus the media backlash from former Diggers on Social Media has convinced him to go against the Canberra Grain & stick with the Men/Women. Certainly a brave act to do in the present clime.

We'll just have to see how it plays out in Canberra now. I actually feel sorry for the chap. He is caught between a Rock & a Hard Place.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 12:01:58 PM
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Foxy, I don't find opinions very helpful.
As you say you gave your opinion.
I on the other hand I gave an observation of the facts.
I alluded to the actual facts and not 'alleged' facts.
As we all know his record is according to the military or what I call the war office.
There are no actual accounts of his 'achievements' other than what we are told by a very secretive, by design, organisation.
I put these kinds of statements in the 'alleged', category.
So it is that your comments are based on your opinions and mine are based on a recently reported fact.
I hope this clarifies.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 1:06:31 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

No clarification is necessary.

I gave an opinion based on recorded facts.

You gave an observation of the facts. i.e. an opinion.

And I agree, that's not helpful at all.

The recorded facts (not my opinion) is that he man has
served with distinction both at the pointy end of military
operations in the field and in the corridors of bureaucratic
power in the national capital.

He has long known how to straddle the defence - politics fence
while maintaining a certain public reserve.

He graduated from the Royal Military College Duntroon, in 1984.
He became Commander with the Special Air Service (SAS).
In the early years of this century he won his first high honour
A Member of the Order of Australia - for helping restore
order in East Timor when he commanded the 2nd battalion,
Royal Australian Regiment. He was afterwards chosen to
become Chief of Staff to the Chief of Defence Force -
General Peter Cosgrove (later Sir). He assumed responsibility
for ALL Australian forces serving in the Middle East -
including Afghanistan - his command earned him a Distinguished
Service Cross.

And there's many, many more facts (not opinions) on record
about the man. You can observe all you want. It doesn't change
the recorded facts.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 1:34:38 PM
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Foxy, these are not facts they are press releases from the war office, which is a puppet to Canberra.
You and I did not witness these 'alleged' wonders, so it is that they are not facts but merely stories and reports by an organisation just like any other govt body.
And if you take anything the govt says as gospel, mores the pity, I gave you more credit than this.
The basis of my objection to this guy is that I demand better, much better from a guy in his position.
By firstly coming out saying he will remove all forms of iconography from the armed forces, one minute, then the next decides he was wrong and does a back flip.
No I'm sorry, he should never have even entertained the topic in the first place.
If he is such a distinguished person he must have nothing to do or think about if he bothers to waste everyones time and morale on such a meaningless issue as 'T' shirts and the iconography there-on.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 2:24:55 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

No matter what your opinion is of this man.
He has served with distinction.
His life's record speaks for itself.
It does not need any-one to either embellish it
or try to demean it.

See you on another discussion.

This one has run its course for me.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 4:24:52 PM
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'There are none so blind as those who will not see'.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 6:56:25 PM
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The only thing worse than being blind is having sight
but no vision.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 6 June 2018 10:13:44 PM
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Foxy, you can use all the oxymorons and cleches you want.
You still insist on not seeing inside a story and continue to accept what is 'put out' knowing full well it is heavily biased towards a particular agenda.
Fine, you carry on believing all and sunder, I will continue to question and look beyond the surface in search of the truth.
As has been the case for as long as I can remember, the facts and the truth are rarely one and the same.
The truth is boring.
Ask any journo.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 7 June 2018 3:15:27 AM
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cont......

Oh and BTW, vision is over-rated and non-dimensional.
I'll take sight before vision any day.
For starters it is three dimensional and is right in front of you.
Vision is in the mind and has no immediate value or substance or use.
It is largely the thing of dreamers and not do-ers.
And so it is that you can keep dreaming of what you believe something is, and I will continue to LOOK for what something really IS.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 7 June 2018 3:26:31 AM
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Dear ALTRAV,

Eventually all things become cliches.

The reason that cliches become cliches is that they
are the hammers and screwdrivers in the toolbox of
communication.

BTW: Life is a prism. What you see depends on how you
turn the glass.

As for dreamers?

You need to dream - and dream big.
That prompts you to do. Doers becom
doers because they firstly are capable of dreaming.
Those who don't dream - very rarely do nothing but
talk. Usually to themselves because they don't
inspire either themselves or anyone else.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 7 June 2018 11:43:13 AM
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Foxy, if ever I happen to meet the general I will pass on your thoughts to him.
With any luck it will stop him from exposing his ineptitude as this one foolish act has done.
His alleged achievements are now in question.
My point is someone in his position and who is so highly revered must NEVER make such a foolish mistake.
I am only relieved that it was something as pathetic as iconography on 'T' shirts and not sending troops to their death.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 7 June 2018 12:41:38 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

If the only error you can find with the General is with his
previous take on death-cult symbols (which he's now
changed) - then I'd say our Defence Force is in very good
hands.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 7 June 2018 5:31:39 PM
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Foxy, I did not find an error.
He erred all by himself.
You want to overlook this as an irrelevance.
I agree, the whole stupid saga was an irrelevance and way beneath his pay grade.
He should have given this one to a junior officer.
You would say our defense force is in very good hands.
As I said before all we know about this guy is what the war office propaganda spew out.
You may be naive enough to hold this guy in high praise, I don't.
I will not accept the stories put out about this guy as they are politically motivated.
If the stories come from a private source who has witnessed him actually doing some praiseworthy act, I still would have visions of him trying to get the spotlight with his stupid iconography stuff up.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 7 June 2018 9:52:05 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

Some of the -

General's service record is the following:

1) Commander with the Special Air Service (SAS)

2) Was awarded A Member of the Order of Australia -
for helping restore Order in East Timor.

3) Commanded the 2nd battalion, Royal Australian
Regiment as part of the UN Transitional Administration
in East Timor.

4) He was Chief of Staff to the Chief of the Defence Force -
General Peter Cosgrove (later Sir).

5) He assumed responsibility for ALL Australian forces serving
in the Middle East including Afghanistan

6) His command in Afghanistan earned him a Distinguished
Service Cross.

And there's much more but this will do.

This is a service record that has been earned.
It stands on its own merit
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 8 June 2018 2:07:34 PM
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Foxy, once more you evade my point.
My point is that all these accolades are from and through a govt backed institution, the military.
As in the scouts, they are rewarded for merely participating.
You make this guy sound as though he single handedly did all these things without help.
First and foremost I come back to who it was that decorated him with all these honours. 'The club', of course.
There is nothing about this guy worth praising, as I have already said.
If he single handedly wiped out a whole enemy platoon and rescued a whole bunch of people, and in doing so encountered heavy resistance whilst attempting all this and still succeeded,wow then he would be a real candidate for all these medals, if not, then just leave him behind a desk at the back of the room.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 8 June 2018 5:27:48 PM
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Dear ALTRAV,

No. He was not rewarded for "merely participating."
That is wrong. He was there on the ground fully
taking part - in more ways than one. And the awards
he's received he's well and truly earned. He's recieved
recognition not only here in Australia but from overseas
as well. From the US, France, Asia.

Anyway when the safety of the men he leads and the
success of his job is at stake - when lives are on the
line, your personal critique and or - unacceptance of
his service record comes in a very, very distant second.
In fact your opinion of the man is totally irrelevant.
His job is to be the best he can be - because that's who
he is as his service record shows. Your opinion is neither
here nor there - and doesn't really count for much at all.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 8 June 2018 7:56:00 PM
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Foxy, to be fair and put balance in the discussion, neither is yours.
You choose to take things at face value, I choose not to and seek the truth.
It turns out I'm right.
Nobody questions things anymore.
The lies and corruption surrounding us is at epidemic proportions.
Most stories have another side to them, we are told what looks and sounds good according to the agenda.
If I say this guy is a shmuck then you can believe it.
You wish to praise and glorify him, good for you.
I would however caution you in suggesting that instead of researching and looking for the nice side of a topic, how about you spend some time verifying the veracity of that topic and not get besotted by it. Your views are far too narrow leaving no room to move in case you're wrong.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 8 June 2018 9:12:02 PM
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