Here'a heartwarming Mother's Day story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5724427/Gunmans-attempted-robbery-families-waiting-outside-school-Sao-Paulo-foiled-mother.html

couldn't have turned out better.

Here'a not so heartwarming story about a family who did't get to celebrate Mother's Day!

Four children and three adults have been shot dead in a home near the West Australian town of Margaret River, in what is the nation's worst mass shooting since the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-11/seven-people-found-dead-in-margaret-river-murder-suicide/9751482

Issy, forgive me for not sharing your gun happy joy!

Paul,

That was apparently a murder, suicide event and the method used is not material to the outcome even though some of the media and the three members of Gun Control Australia jumped on the tragedy to further their agenda, now you.

Is it not great to see a woman defend other women and children from a gunman who may have killed many of them?
Much better for the antis agenda if he had killed a few or better if it had been a massacre, then the event would have made the mainstream media.

Of course, such a thing as this woman's brave action could not have happened in Australia as our police, though brave enough, are not trusted to be armed when off duty.

The terrible tragedy at Margaret River was perpetrated by a person that the pro gun lobby like to describe as a law abiding citizen of good character.

"On Friday Katrina Miles, her four children - daughter Taye, 13, and sons Rylan, 12, Arye, 10, and Kadyn Cockman, eight - and parents Peter and Cynda Miles were found dead at their property in Osmington, northeast of Margaret River."

"They had all been shot by firearms licensed to Mr Miles."

Issy, quick to gloat about a shooting in the US when you think it gives a boost to your pro gun toting mentality. Instead of being dismissive of the use of a licensed firearm to commit this terrible crime in WA, please explain how Mr Miles was able to hold a gun license in the first place! Were mistakes made in issuing Miles a gun licence, or do you believe it was appropriate for Miles to be granted a gun licence.

Hi Paul,
I don't know much about this particular shooting tragedy, but I found your question interesting.

"Were mistakes made in issuing Miles a gun licence, or do you believe it was appropriate for Miles to be granted a gun licence."

It seems like damned if you do, damned if you don't type of question, which made me think more.

THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL

Let's say somebody got on social media and announced they were going to stab a heap of people.
Could, should or would others intervene and hold this person against their will just for saying it; in order to prevent this person from ever gaining access to a knife?

What if some psycho said they were planning to run a heap of innocent people over?
Could, should would others intervene and hold this person against their will just for saying it; in order to prevent this person from ever gaining access to a vehicle?

What if someone wanted to use any other type of item to harm someone else with...

Say a ice-pick, 40oz blacksmith hammer or a fireaxe?

http://ebay.com.au/itm/172713084964

http://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-82291-oz-Blacksmiths-Hammer/dp/B00AEBVQ76

http://m.made-in-china.com/product/Pick-Head-Fire-Axe-with-Fiberglass-Handle-749250935.html

What if the person does not announce their plans?

How can you realistically prevent people from gaining access to items that could be used for mass killing?

That said, what does it matter whether it's a gun or not?
A gun might do it more efficiently, but a person could put a small tin of canned food in a long sock and murder just as many people with that if they set out to do so.

How can you prevent someone from harming another if they are determined to do so?

Would you support holding people against their will before they have committed an offence?

Paul,

" please explain how Mr Miles was able to hold a gun license in the first place! Were mistakes made in issuing Miles a gun licence, or do you believe it was appropriate for Miles to be granted a gun licence."

Let's wait until the coroner makes his findings or the police issue more information.

@Paul

Which information, that was available at the time, should have disqualified the owner of the guns from being able to purchase them?

Issy, its notable that you did not wait for any inquiry into your US of duty woman cooper shooting dead some bloke before crowing. Why do you want to be so circumspect over the Margaret River tragedy. Could it be since it involves a person who in the past you have described in general terms as a law abiding citizen of good character, one of your own. Do you still claim all licensed gun owners are such persons.

AC, announce publicly "going to stab a heap of people" and all those other such nasty things and you might get a visit from the police. In fact to make unmitigated threats of a general nature is a crime in itself.

"How can you prevent someone from harming another if they are determined to do so?" That's not the argument, the argument is about issuing a gun licence to a person who committed an horrendous crime. I am against the issuing of gun licences to future deranged killers. Since the state can not give a 100% guarantee as to who is who, they should not issue a licence unless its absolutely necessary, and under the most stringent of conditions.

"ice-pick, 40oz blacksmith hammer or a fireaxe" a straw man argument, not relevant.

benk; "Which information, that was available at the time, should have disqualified the owner of the guns from being able to purchase them?
The information available is a percentage of persons issued a gun licence use it for criminal purposes. There is no need for many who own a gun legally now, to have a gun, the risk in my view is unacceptable.

"Dramatic security footage shows a suspect named as Elivelton Neves Moreira, 21, approaching the crowd with a gun outside a private school in Sao Paulo.

But his attempted crime backfired when military police officer Katia da Silva Sastre, 42, pulled out her own weapon and unleashed three shots."

//Issy, its notable that you did not wait for any inquiry into your US of duty woman cooper//

Do you even geography, bro?

Sao Paulo is in Brazil... another country rife with excessive gun violence.

I do love the way Is Mise keep digging up these stories from countries with much higher rates of gun violence than Oz, and presents them as though they're inspirational tales of how wonderful life is in these countries and that upon reading them we'll all see the light and want to make Australia just like Brazil or Elbonia or Kgydrtfystan or whatever shitehole country is host to this week's heartwarming tale of violent vigilantism (yee-hah!), so that we too can have the joy of shoot-outs on every high street just like in the classic Westerns you enjoyed as a lad. Won't that be fun for us?

It suggests to me that as sage and canny as he is on most subjects, he's a bit clueless when it comes to human nature.

People don't want to get shot, Is Mise. That's basically the crux of the problem you face in trying to sell the vision of a society with increased gun violence as a utopian ideal, and what makes it about as easy as pushing shite uphill with a sharp stick. If you and your mates from the Shooters party can figure out a way to get around people's natural reluctance to be shot, you may enjoy more success in selling your message. But until then, I think most Australians will prefer the timeless advice of Johnny Cash:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A74Wq0B1WrI

To be honest Toni I didn't get overly engrossed in Issy's link. If I had bothered to concentrate then yes I would have realized it was in Brazil, and not Donaldland. At first I thought Issy was praising mother's, it being Mothers Day and all. Alas not so, according to Mr Gun Happy, what makes for the perfect day is when someone gets shot dead.

Toni, thanks for the link, the the 'Man In Black' makes for better listening than Issy's links do for reading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xyp63MaSBs

A line from the above "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die."

The point is that this defensive shooting didn't rate a mention in main stream media, I wonder why?

Has no one got anything to say about a shooting like this not being possible in Australia, thanks to the Howard gun laws?

Dear Is Mise,

Sometimes mate your posts are so bloody repugnant they want to make me puke. A “heartwarming Mother's Day story”.

Well there was one mother for whom it certainly wasn't.

You sick little man.

And you sit there with a figurative justice boner because of it? In a country with nearly 20 million people living in deep poverty and equally deep inequality?

This is what guns have done to that country;

“One out of 10 homicide victims around the world each year is a Brazilian. Most of the roughly 60,000 Brazilian citizens violently killed each year die from gunshot wounds. And the majority of the guns doing the killing were made in Brazil. The country is the fourth-largest firearms and ammunition manufacturer on the planet.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/03/30/opinion-brazil-murder-gun-problem/99814550/

And here you are reveling in it.

Plus you want the same for us.

You sit here in our safe country behind you safe little keyboard bringing us stories from around the world which feed your fetish. It really is a version of pornography for you isn't it.

Just nick off.

Well Issy, thanks to Steele I think you have been well and truly creamed as far as using Brazil as an example of utopianism, where guns rule society.

As far as Australia is concerned its time to tighten up on who is licensed to possess a firearm. There are too many licenses issued for rather dubious purposes, and that is a concern. I support the military and police possessing guns in the execution of their duty, but certainly under the most stringent controls. The use of firearms for "recreational" and "amateur" purposes needs careful examination.

Christmas is not that far away, maybe you will have another heartwarming gun story from another one of the worlds shite holes which we in Australia can get all warm and fuzzy about, just like you do.

//The point is that this defensive shooting didn't rate a mention in main stream media//

It did, you daft twat. Have a look at your own link: it's from the Daily Mail, Britain's 2nd highest selling daily newspaper. Please, do enlighten us as to how the Daily Mail fails to count as main stream media.

This should be amusing.

Oh, BTW, have you figured yet how you might convince the man on the Clapham omnibus that secretly, deep down inside, he really does want to be shot and that he just doesn't consciously realise it?

Oh well, give it a bit more thought...

Toni,

The Daily Mail isn't Australian MSM, or didn't you notice?
"I do love the way Is Mise keep[s] digging up these stories from countries with much higher rates of gun violence than Oz, "

Paul,

The Mothers' Day angle is all the mothers and children that the policewoman saved, they are far more important than the criminal's mother whom Steele is concerned about.

Steele,

If you don't like me then the 'Dear' and "mate' are superfluous.
" ... bringing us stories from around the world..."
To you and Toni, what stories?

Has no one got anything to say about a shooting like this not being possible in Australia, thanks to the Howard gun laws?

//The Daily Mail isn't Australian MSM//

You didn't say anything about Australian main stream media, just main stream media. Shifting the goalposts already? I knew this would be amusing.

The Daily Mail is about as main stream as it gets, Is Mise. The fact that it's based in Britain doesn't really count for much in the age of the internet - I listen to more BBC radio than I do Australian radio. How much more main stream than the Mail do you want?

//"I do love the way Is Mise keep[s] digging up these stories from countries with much higher rates of gun violence than Oz//

Sorry, what? Are you trying to dispute that the story being discussed occurred in Brazil?

Did you and Paul have the same geography teacher? It's just that you both seem to have a blind spot when it comes one of the largest countries on Earth. Look, here it is on a map:

http://ontheworldmap.com/south-america/political-map-of-south-america.jpg

It's the big green one on the right. Do yourself a favour and look it up on wikipedia.

//To you and Toni, what stories?//

Sounds like you've got a touch of the Alzheimer's there, Is Mise. Don't you remember? Because everybody else seems to....

Toni,

"Sounds like you've got a touch of the Alzheimer's there, Is Mise. Don't you remember? Because everybody else seems to...."

So what stories do I keep telling?

As to not mentioning that I was fosussed on Australian media, we are in Australia.

Have you not got anything to say about a shooting like this not being possible in Australia, thanks to the Howard gun laws?

Possibly more than just a touch...

Toni,

Put up or shut up.

Steele,

Why do you find it repugnant that a woman shot a potential murderer and saved the lives of mothers and children?

Your support for the criminal's mother shews a rather dark side to you, why were you not concerned for the threatened mothers and children?

What quirk of character stopped you from supporting the policewoman, a normal person would praise her action.

Dear Is Mise,

Your pathological disconnect between the proliferation of guns in a country and the likelihood of a criminal being armed beggars belief.

There are reports that the criminal's gun jammed so the outcome with so many children around may have been very different. You want more guns in our society and then you want more guns to protect us when a portion of those guns fall into the wrong hands. Do you have any bloody clue how circular that is?

You obviously troll the internet for stories that will justify your fetish. Fine, whatever floats your boat, but don't come at the rest of us with some pseudo moral justification for it because there really isn't one.

Steele,

"You obviously troll the internet for stories that will justify your fetish"

Do I?

Shew them to us.

Have you not got anything to say about a shooting like this not being possible in Australia, thanks to the Howard gun laws?

Dear Is Mise,

You asked;

“Have you not got anything to say about a shooting like this not being possible in Australia, thanks to the Howard gun laws?”

I did but it seems it was a little oblique for you so here is is as clear as I can make it;

The chances of a criminal putting a loaded weapon in the faces of mothers and their children in front of a school and managing to fire a round before the gun jamming is far less bloody likely because of Howard's gun laws.

If there anything about that statement you would like further explained to you then let me know.

Toni, give us a break, I admitted to only giving 'Issy link' a quick once over before dismissing it as Issy's usual nonsense. As the Poobah of the Australian chapter of the NRA, and considering he can't fart unless HRH the Exalted Grand Poobah of Donaldland gives him the thumbs up to do so, I thought it came from Yankee HQ.

BTW; what lingo do they speak in Brazil? (trick question at trivia).

Issy, nothing to say about the carnage at Margaret River carried out by a person who you have previously claimed was a law abiding citizen of good character?

Do you still claim ALL licensed gun owners are law abiding citizens of good character, your call.

"PETER MILES, who was previously the MANAGER of the school farm at the local HIGH SCHOOL, had MURDERED six members of his family before turning the GUN on himself."

Given the above, do you still support the idea of arming ALL school teachers. If so would Peter Miles have qualified for a free gun from you?

Re: Gun laws and rural properties. I think rural properties and farms are allowed to have low grade rifles after applying for a license, due to the nature of living in remote areas and farm work.

Since Australia introduced gun laws, especially for rapidfire, non-reloading weapons(lets face it, they are really weapons of war), we have had no more mass shootings like Port Arthur,in Tasmania, 35dead… Or like the Hoddell street massacre in Melbourne, where there were 7 dead and 19wounded.

Yes we've had shootings, by limited shot rifles,which can only kill a small number before running out of bullets, at which time they can be overpowered and the rifle taken from them.
I think the non-occurrence of any mass shooting equalling the number of people shot
at Port Arthur and Hoddell Street in a matter of minutes, speaks for itself, as to the success of Australian gun laws.

I myself dislike the fact, that the population has to be disarmed because of the idiots that cant be trusted to have such weapons in public spaces. But I see it as having prevented the scale of the massacres in America and other countries. The proof is in the results. No availability of rapid fire weapons, no huge number of people killed in a matter of a few minutes. This has obviously been the result in Australia.

"I think the non-occurrence of any mass shooting equalling the number of people shot at Port Arthur and Hoddell Street in a matter of minutes, speaks for itself, as to the success of Australian gun laws."

CHERFUL, I take a different position, one innocent person shot dead indicates the failure of Australia's gun laws. Zero deaths is the only acceptable minimum. Our gun laws have gone part way to arresting the utter carnage that has occurred previously. Margaret River shows that our laws are not yet where they should be. Too many gun licences are being issued for so called recreational purposes, unacceptable.

Cherful,

"No availability of rapid-fire weapons, no huge number of people killed in a matter of a few minutes. This has obviously been the result in Australia."

What country do you live in?

Rapid fire weapons are legally available in Australia; tomorrow I shall be at the range taking part in a Rapid Fire shoot that consists of the following rounds:
6 shots in 20 seconds strong hand only. 6 in 20 two hand grip
6 shots in 10 seconds strong hand, 6 in 10 two hands.
6 shots in 5 seconds strong hand, 6 in 5 two hands.

We shoot this twice, the first time I'll be using a semi-automatic pistol and the second time a reproduction of an 1873 Colt single action revolver; 145-year-old technology.

My S&W Model 10, double action revolver is faster being capable (in the right hands) of firing at a rate of 750 shots in a minute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_McGivern

Paul,

Yes, the man in question was a law-abiding farmer and was cleared by the police in WA to have a firearm licence.
Why would they refuse him one?

What do you propose to do about car drivers?

I kid you not, the people in the following video are not confined to some mental institution in Arkansas, and playing delusional cowboys games with toy guns as some kind of perverted therapy trying to bring them back to some semblance pf normality. Wichita Willie, Little Miss Lead Lover and the rest of these fruitcakes are right here in NSW, and you are not going to believe this, they all hold legal gun licences, and are playing with real guns, with real live ammunition.
Issy do you have any suggestions for the possible rehabilitation of these misfits? I can only think of the men in the white coats, and the padded cells. There must be something that can be done to save these poor devils from themselves. A terrible thought, what if they escaped and got loose into the rest of the community, heaven help us!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok1NMsz6L08

What do you propose to do about car drivers? The Straw man argument, what is the relationship between car drives and guns? If doing something about car drivers will reduce gun deaths then it would be worth looking at, would you not agree?
You could have said, what do you propose to do about bee keepers?

Why would they refuse him one? Because he was a potential, and later proven homicidal maniac. But a better reason would be he didn't have a legitimate reason to posses a gun.

//Toni,

Put up or shut up.//

Well that's definitely the strangest 'put up or shut up' I've ever received. Usually people employing that phrase are demanding evidence to support a controversial claim, rather than trying to outsource their long-term memory.

I have to say that I am honestly perplexed: what is it that you hope to achieve by this feigned inability to recall? Do you think that if you protest ignorance of your past posts long enough and hard enough that we'll all start doubt our own memories and from there begin to question the very basis of our own existence until, in a Philip K. Dickian moment of revelation, we realise that we're just a figment of a greater imagination and disappear in puff of epistemology?

//Toni, give us a break//

Fair enough, that was a cheap shot. My apologies.

//BTW; what lingo do they speak in Brazil?//

My brain says Portuguese, but my heart says waxed vulvas.

As a descriptivist linguist, I would say that they speak a dialect of Portuguese that I think of as 'Brazilian'.

//What do you propose to do about car drivers?//

Teach them the road rules, so that they understand there is a time and place for safe driving: everywhere and at all times. Enforce those rules properly: there is no point to unenforced rules. And, whatever you do, don't relax the rules once they start to produce positive results: maintain the pressure, or those results will reverse themselves.

//You could have said, what do you propose to do about bee keepers?//

Keep a close eye on those buggers. Have any of you ever read 'Royal Jelly' by Roald Dahl? Bee keepers... brrr.

Toni, you didn't say Spanish, you're still in the game. Ah! have to get up early in the morning to catch you out. Six schooners later, and for a spin of the wheel! What nationality was Saint Patrick?

Another outrageous mass school shooting in the United States. "At least ten people are dead following a shooting at Santa Fe High School outside of Houston, Texas. The shooter, identified as 17-year-old student Dimitrios Pagourtzis, is in custody. The Chronicle reported that his now-defunct Facebook page included photos “of a T-shirt that said ‘born to kill’ and clothes adorned with German nationalist iconography.” Texas Governor Greg Abbott said there are two other “persons of interest,” including one who was detained at the scene of the shooting after police observed “suspicious reactions.”

Again little positive reaction from the powerful US pro gun lobby.

Steele,

"The chances of a criminal putting a loaded weapon in the faces of mothers and their children in front of a school and managing to fire a round before the gun jamming is far less bloody likely because of Howard's gun laws.

If there anything about that statement you would like further explained to you then let me know."

Well, yes, I'd like to know what you think about the policewoman shooting the criminal and why such a shooting could not happen under the Howard gun laws.

As far as the gun jamming, I had two malfunctions during the 10- second shoots and both times I managed to clear them and fire the required 6 shots in 10 seconds. Not hard.

What were the chances of Victor Cheng being shot outside Parramatta Police Station?
Was this'...is far less bloody likely because of Howard's gun laws."?

The above should read 'Curtis Cheng'.

Issy. anything to report from US HQ on the latest school shooting in Texas. Seems its business as usual, more guns, more horrific murders. Sad really that a few selfish individuals from the likes of the NRA prevent the introduction of laws that could go a long way to stopping this often repeated carnage. All to satisfy their own perverted pleasure! Why?

Dear Is Mise,

It was Victor Chang not Cheng who was the victim of a shooting by someone armed with a pistol. That pistol was not illegal due to the lax protocols in place in 1991, 5 years before Port Arthur. Due to Howard's gun laws the once easy access to obtaining a pistol has now been sensibly curtailed.

You claimed;

“Yes, the man in question was a law-abiding farmer and was cleared by the police in WA to have a firearm licence.
Why would they refuse him one?”

He was on 12 hectares, little more than a hobby farm yet he had three weapons at his disposal.

You wrote;

“As far as the gun jamming, I had two malfunctions during the 10- second shoots and both times I managed to clear them and fire the required 6 shots in 10 seconds. Not hard.”

Who cares. Why bring this up at all? What was the point if any you were trying to make? Or were you just shooting your mouth off because you want to justify and normalise your fetish.

Steele,

"It was Victor Chang not Cheng who was the victim of a shooting by someone armed with a pistol. That pistol was not illegal due to the lax protocols in place in 1991, 5 years before Port Arthur. Due to Howard's gun laws the once easy access to obtaining a pistol has now been sensibly curtailed."

Comprehension low?

I corrected my mistake about Curtis Cheng, and Victor Chang was shot with an illegal pistol smuggled in from Singapore by his murderers.
That pistol was also illegal because of the Pistol Act of 1932 which required the registration and licencing of all pistols in NSW.
Howard's gun laws have made it easier to lawfully obtain a pistol licence and there are now more people legally holding pistols than before 1996.

I mentioned the pistol stoppages to illustrate that a pistol jamming does not stop the continued firing of the said pistol, you brought up the criminal's pistol jamming not me.

Got any more examples of your ignorance for us to enjoy?

Paul,

It is well established that gun crime in the USA is falling as the number of civilian owned weapons increases, therefore shewing that the mantra "more guns, more crime" is a fallacy.

No laws can stop a nutter from carrying out an atrocity, reference the accelerant assisted mass murders by fire that have occurred in Australia.

"Well-publicised incidents of homicide involving fire, such as the Childers Backpacker Hostel fire in 2000 in which 15 victims died, have drawn widespread attention to the phenomenon of fire-associated homicide in Australia. The use of fire in..."
http://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi340

Howard's Gun Laws had absolutely no effect in this case. except perhaps to steer the perpetrator to a cheaper and personally less risky alternative.

//It is well established that gun crime in the USA is falling as the number of civilian owned weapons increases//
Issy, tell that one to the grieving families of the latest atrocity. cold comfort indeed!

Do you still stand by your previous rediculous claim that ALL licensed gun owners in Australia are law abiding decent folk.

You wont answer that one, because you know there are more Peter Miles types, holding a gun license, owning a gun, out there ready to snap at any tick of the clock. There could even be a couple down at your favorite gunnie club, you just don't know.

//Well-publicised incidents of homicide involving fire// Another attempt at deflection. Look folks there is no problem with guns, because people get murdered by fire. What a fascinating line of argument.

Paul,

"Do you still stand by your previous rediculous [ridiculous] claim that ALL licensed gun owners in Australia are law abiding decent folk."

Where did I say that?

Steele,

I support the Howard Gun Laws in general although I do have some objections to the more stupid aspects of them.
I do support safe storage and minimum age provisions and training along with compulsory membership of a club [brilliant that one] etc.

What I really like is the effect that the laws have had in increasing the interest in shooting as a sport and the consequent rise in the number of clubs and the number of licence holders.

The generous financial encouragement that has resulted in an increase in the number and type of firearm ranges.
Many defunct ranges have been brought back into use as well as entirely new ranges.

The range where I shoot is a perfect example, it went out of use just post WWII.
It was a service rifle range but has now been expanded to cater for small bore as well as centrefire rifles and has a new pistol range with electronic targets.
At the moment electricity is supplied by a generator but we are in for a grant to be connected to the grid.
The next addition (which is under construction) is a 'Western Action' range.

So far grants total over $100,000 and that's just one country range.

Thank you, John!!

Then there is the political aspect, before the Howard Laws shooters were rather disunited but now have representatives in Parliament in three States and in the Senate.

Again a big 'Thank You' to the Father of the Australian Gun Lobby, John Winston Howard.

Onya John.

Issy, you have made that claim numerous times, on the countless number of gun happy discussions you have started.

Are you now back tracking, and agreeing with me that there are some gun nutters been given licences. I recall a degree of sympathy from you for the murderous licensed gun nutter Ian Turnbull. It was fortunate for the community Turnbull got 35 years jail for his crime. It was even more fortunate that the old bastard croaked in jail early on while doing that time.

Paul,

"Issy, you have made that claim numerous times, on the countless number of gun happy discussions you have started."

Shew me.

Dear Is Mise,

And as a consequence of you and your happy little gun fetish joining ranks with other happy little fetishers we now have looser gun laws and many more guns in our communities. What has followed is that mass shooting are starting to return. Sure the WA tragedy didn't strike at random people but that will come and it is more likely to occur at the hands of a licenced gun owner that not.

So far this year the US has lost more students and teachers to gun violence than serving military personnel. Let that little statistic settle in for a moment. This is what you want for this country.

Just move.

Steele,

Still shewing your ignorance, found the 1932 Pistol Licencing Act yet, or would you like me to do some research for you as you seem rather incapable?

There are more licenced gun holders today because of the Howard Gun Laws not in spite of them.

Be careful what you wish for, Is Mise. When the increased proliferation of guns in our society leads to another Port Arthur, the gun control laws they push through in response will make Little Johhny's look like they were written by the NRA.

If you don't want the Government to take your guns away, the best thing you can do is discourage their proliferation: more gun licences means more chance of some nutter getting his hands on one and then shooting up a cafe or whatever, and then they will take your guns away.

This isn't the US: you don't have a constitutional right to your guns, and the minute some idiot demonstrates that your mob can't be trusted with them they will crack down hard. The rational thing to do would be to try to reduce the likelihood of that occurring.

Toni did you mention some nutter, are you not familiar with Issy's mates, the licensed gun owners Wichita Willy and Buckshot Billy, a pair of straight shooters they be. Wow!

Steele,

"And as a consequence of you and your happy little gun fetish joining ranks with other happy little fetishers we now have looser gun laws and many more guns in our communities"

We have looser gun laws do we?

Please give an example or two, or would that need some research on your part?
It's easy to make allegations but harder to have the mental ability to back them up.

There are more licenced firearms owners because the laws are working, the recent amnesty is an example of that; why aren't you happy?

Issy clearly demonstrates the hypocritical approach the pro gun lobby in Australia takes towards effective gun control. Outwardly claiming to be supportive of control measures, but always adding the over-rider that they will oppose laws that in their opinion are dumb silly nonsense. This approach gives the pro gun mob an outward air of being a respectable conciliatory bunch always ready to cooperate to make for a safer community. Nothing could be further from the truth, their real agenda of a totally gun toting society with little or no restrictions is clear for all to see. Their ideal is the American model where unrestricted gun control is an everyday part of life. The outcome of such a model for Australia is clear, more shootings, more Port Arthur's, more of what has just taken place at Margaret River. All this to satisfy vested interests, and the perverse pleasure on small minority who have a fetish with their big boys toys...guns!

Paul,

Silly accusations with no proof what so ever.

You allege that the US NRA interferes in Australian politics and funds the Australian gun lobby, yet so far you have dodged the questions (as usual) and have offered no proof.

Why can't you offer proof?

Hot air ain't proof.

I'd just like to add that the Greens support criminal elements in Australia to the detriment of law and order and the safety of the citizens.