Ok. I know I'm asking have my nose bitten off on this one, but what I don't want is outrageous vilification of the Australian Democrats, rather, an open debate on just how the Democrats might again take the mantle of "keeping the bastards honest."
Lets remember that we all have our own axe to grind with the Democrats including the GST fiasco, but at the moment, the Australian press would have us believe it's a two horse race to the polls later in the year and that so far, the Rudd nag has it's head in front by a mile. Perhaps, by taking stock of our choice between two equally oppressive parties, together we can come up with some ideas that, if adopted by another party, may go some distance towards creating the viable and visionary political party which is so desperately required in this country.

aime, a political party is not an association of saints. it's a group of people who want to direct the state/nation in a way that suits themselves. looking for a 'good' one is as naive as looking for a 'good' crocodile.

the only way to make the policies of the state/nation benefit the majority of the people, is to decide the policies by the majority of the people. it's called democracy.

if you don't want democracy, then you do want to be ruled by a small group of people who are looking out for them selves. lucky you, that's what you've got. why are you complaining? is it because your small group is not in charge? then change groups, be a labor politician, or liberal, they're interchangeable.

aime, bad news: to have a good society, you need good citizens.

Demos, I'm not complaining, nor do I belong to a small group. I've read many of your posts in relation to your ideas of democracy and agree to many of them in principle, but I'm also a very practical person.
Australians go to the polls later this year and yes, I wish the silly old bugger would tell us all exactly when, but we'll be going to the polls with the usual suspects as regards to politicians. That's not going to change in time for this election, nor will it change in the foreseeable future. No matter what you might wish for, Australians simply will not change en mass.
Therefore, isn't it allowable that those who make up the small proportion of swinging voters actually to see all cards on the table before they vote? Hence my question, from an uneducated point of view, what's wrong with the Democrats? If that question cannot be answered, then I would take that as a very good reason to vote for them since nobody was able to tell me why I shouldn't.
So, ok Demos, what's wrong with the democrats?

Two problems happened with the Democrats. One is "fence jumping". If you remember, Cheryl Kernot fell for former ALP Foreign Affairs minister: Gareth Evans. Fence jumping over consistency made people suspicious about what kind of people the Democrats were. Were they honestly keeping the Bastards honest as they claimed, or where they sleeping with them? The Democrats starting losing ground then.

Then came Meg Lees. What a whip-dang of an inspiration she was. The image of Mrs Doubtfire in American Gothic and the ethics of a ferret.

With personalities aside the a turning came finding the balance between good policy, good politics and a strong example. The Greens are stumbling on this one with their drug policy as they want to "grow" to significance making "responsible" decisions.

Meg Lees thought she was making a "responsible" decision in voting for a GST. In reality, the only parties that need to make "responsible" decisions are those in Government. The minor parties are left with their policies, good politics which means consistency, and setting an example.

Andrew Bartlet did not set a good example when he had a drinking problem. He poked a woman in the back. Not a good look in Parliament.

There is lots of door knocking, demonstrations carrying cards, rallying, lobbying, advocacy, bla bla bla before you can convince people that the Democrats can make the difference. There is only one way and that is the hard way.

Some have to get their hands into the ground and mix with the locals, particularly in local Government. This is one of the strengths in the Greens. They do well in local Government.

The Deomocrats have some good people who are very intelligent. Andrew Bartlet is brilliant in intellect and so is Natasha Stot Despoia. (how do you spell that name?). In NSW Chesterfield-Evans was academically dynamic, brilliant in philosophy but on his feet, sluggish to say the least.

They did sprout from the Liberals, but it is a shame that there is no rage against the dying of the light.

No nothing wrong they are just dead not to rise again, self inflicted wounds.
Poor leaders no direction sad but there is no after life for them without leadership.

The Democrats failed to keep the bastards honest.

Failure use Constitution s128 force contentious issues to Australian voters for them to decide as should occur when politicians disagree.

Democrats failed take ALP opposition several policies to force relevant substantive issues with s128 ballot papers for Australians to decide.

Constitution s128 gives EITHER Senate OR House of Representatives, despite lack of support, despite opposition, from other House power ask Governor-General present Bills to voters for decision:

Section 128
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/chapter8.htm

Australian Democrats refused, failed, exercise their numbers, their swinging votes, to force issues onto ballot, eg Telstra,Iraq, other issues.

Democrat failure to demand presenting s128 questions to resolve serious issues questions sincerity of claimed committment to accountability, to keeping the bastards honest.

Essential if you believe Sovereign Power does belong to the people.

At Federation state support for creation of Commonwealth required our Constitution include s.128 as protection of rights of states.

Many state rights ideas Commonwealth with assistance from High Court has certainly trimmed - to date.

Yet Senate was and remains a House designed to protect states insterests. Federation expected conflicts between Senate and House of Representatives.

Australian Constitutional system created with checks and balances, s128 tool available to either House, Senate or Representatives, to force resolution of any conflict, by means of demanding clear demonstration support, or rejection, from Australian voters with protection of double majority of voters and States.

s128 far clearer demonstration than claimed support for principles of a party chosen to govern.

Sure Governor-General could refuse s128 request, and be treated worse than Sir John Kerr.

Rejecting bill requiring ballot resolution of an issue creates far more serious Constitutional issue, as s128 present for purpose of resolving House disagreements, conflicts through voting by Australian People as The Sovereign Power of Australia to resolve.

Any High Court responce to whichever House of Parliament came arguing against such voting would be very interesting reading... rejection of such vote perhaps announce time for revolution not evolution !

aime, if a few people like you refused to participate in the laboral charade,and if an election was lost as a consequence, labor might put citizen initiative back on their policy. bringing democracy to australia is vastly more important than the 'dum vs dee' shadow play that passes for politics on this sheep station.

of course it won't be easy- it's a plan to shift real power into the hands of the people. this is politics for grown-ups. but it's not impossible. the 'getup' organization is big enough to deliver decisive votes if they really want to empower people. i'm not sure they are, 'protest' groups normally are adolescents of various ages.

i despise the dems because they have all the weaknesses of the major parties, while radiating 'holier than them'. they would have been the obvious champions of democracy in oz, but chipp was a very limited man and had no goal but a seat and a broker power. he got that, but people came to see the calibre of the party and are less and less impressed.

The Democrats have a problem with common sense and logic.They just do not connect with the majority of people in the electorate who make our economy function.

Which part of out of touch,stupid fools do they not understand?

The problem with The Democrats is that they need other's problems to exist and that their existance is usually outside the "normal" spectrum of the law...

The soup-kitchen line started with abnormality...

Once The Democrats have formed the problems seldom leave...

Firstly I think the Democrats need to work out what they want their role in the parliment to be.
- If its "keeping the bastards honest" then there is no place for forcing the government to breach a policy that was taken to the electorate eg the GST thing. There is a place for blocking policy that was not put to the electorate eg "Work Choices" and participation in Iraq. If it's about keeping others honest then that's a different thing to trying to have their own policies implemented.
- If it is about presenting particular policy positions and trying to use leverage to get those policies implemented by whoever is in power then they need to work out if they are really representing any particular body of voters who may not be better off supporting one of the bigger players. What do they offer that is substantially different to Labor?

From my own perspective I'd support a party that I believed would do it's upmost to get the major parties to stick to the policies and promoses which were taken to the electorate. I've got not much time for a party which looks ALP wanabee's.

Some years ago I received a request for feedback from the Democrats. I wrote to the democrats expressing my concern about what I considered to be serious issues which I would have liked them to pay some attention to. They did not bother with the courtesy of a reply but did place me on an email list in the leadup to the last election. It took a number of requests to get them to stop sending me their electoral material.

R0bert

It never seems to occur to posters here that as a small, powerless nation on the margins of Asia, Australia's room for manoeuvre is limited. We are not going to change the world's trading system. No matter what we do we cannot fight global warming if the big players don't cooperate. No one is interested in any "moral examples" we may set.

All Australian governments of whatever stripe have to perform a series of delicate juggling acts in an unpredictable and sometimes dangerous world. Trade-offs and compromises will always be necessary. There are no magic bullets that will ensure peace, justice and utopia in Australia.

Neither John Howard nor Kevin Rudd are monsters. Nor are they saints. They are, as are we all, flawed human being. Mostly, not always, I think they try and do what they believe to be best for Australia.

What I find most remarkable is the continuity in the direction of policy in Australia since 1983. I doubt that a Rudd government would be much different to, say, a Costello or Turnbull administration. If by some fluke the Greens ever won government they would find, as did the German Greens, that real world constraints forced them to ditch or modify many of their most cherished ideals.

Putting everything to a referendum may sound nice but is impractical. If we put all important decision to a referendum I suspect we'd still have the death penalty and White Australia.

Aime..I'll resist.. the temptation to give a quick one liner... *resisting......*.. ok..

DEMOS will probably cringe for me to say this, but he summed it up rather well. 'Good crocodile' being the operative words.

Yes, democracy, sadly produces competition for many things, and if that competition is driven by 'greed' (as opposed to the persuit of fairness and justice) it will bring horrible results and social breakdown.

Steven summarized it very well, and rather than repeat, I'll add one dimension which I have not seen mentioned yet.

"Todays Revolutionary is tomorrows Tyrant"... i.e. many aspiring political identities and parties are romantic and idealistic. UNTIL.....they gain power.

cheers.

BD

Nearly every revolutionary becomes a tyrant. Someone like Nelson Mandela stands out because he is one of the few exceptions.

Most revolutions fail, usually after making a bad situation worse.

Those that succeed usually make a worse situation worse still.

Most revolutionary leaders can only be loved by the dysfunctional romantics of the looney left. Che Guevarra worship is a case in point. You really need to have lost touch with reality to see anything good in that dim-witted mass murderer.

bg, you are tolerable when you agree.

steven, i didn't know che personnally, but cuba is much better off than it was, and would be better still if usa didn't interdict them.

anyway, your face won't appear on many teeshirts, so you lose.

Aime, in the mid '80's I voted Dems. in the senate, bought the keep the bastards honest line. But I got sick of the carping, know best attitudes that lead to constant compromise etc. Decided I'd rather see the govt. of the day able to enact their policies unimpeded. Full speed ahead, and damn the torpedoes.

You can blame me.

DEMOS,

Whether Cuba is better off than it would have been had Castro not been successful is, to say the least, questionable. The number of people drowning while trying to reach Florida suggests Cubans aren't all that happy.

Or am I missing something? Do you know of people drowning while trying to reach Cuba from Florida?

What I find interesting is the parallel between Che and the seventh century Arabian warlord with the taste for young girls. Che seems to be a secular 20th Century version of Muhammed.

To get back to the Democrats, they're gone anyway. Who cares? They'll enjoy their parliamentary pensions.

Thanks to everybody who posted an opinion. I'll take your views on-board. Looks like it's still a two horse race then?

Aime, a two horse race for the ministerial leather but there are other players trying for the vacancies left by the democrats.
The greens seem to be more clear about what they are doing (although they are way to far to the left for me). Family First will be rounding up the votes of those who think that the worlds problems are not enough fundamentalism rather than too much of it.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next election, will Labor grab control of both houses or will voters try and put a check on them in the senate? Will workchoices have scared people off giving one side of politics control of both houses?

R0bert

Oh yes RObert, the 2007 elections will certainly be an interesting time. I even know of people who are planning an "election night" function in their home. I myself have been invited to one such function. It involves sitting around during the election telecast, sipping white wine and eating dips on crackers, however, I won't be attending. All the players in the room, apart from myself, will be strong Liberal supporters. An evening such as that can only end in grief for me and the possibility of ending a couple of long standing friendships. Most dangerous indeed. Besides, white wine tastes absolutely disgusting.

To be honest RObert, I haven't completely made up my mind yet just who I'll vote for. I'll probably start with a small protest by voting for a minor party, but at the same time I'll be careful just where their preferences will go. The Libs will be last on my list, although I doubt the election will result in the foregone conclusion the polls current suggest.

I still predict that the Coalition will just sneak in, but with loss of control of the Senate. This is the best possible result as I believe major events will shape the world in which we live over the next several years. Howard's much loved economy will topple proving once and for all that his perceived 'good economic management' was a farce and due to fortunate timing rather than good management.

I'll be keenly watching the election results from the comfort of my lounge chair, safe in the knowledge that my Liberal supporting friends are well out of hearing range.

There is actually nothing wrong with the Democrats ; However they do have a problem ; their adherents are disaffected Labor voters ; so when Meg Lees cut a deal with the Lib's enough said !
The other problem ; Miss Hilton the Super Gal who discovered that glam is no substitute for substance ; and cooperation .

The political issues in Oz are making a ever descending left turn ; what I am alluding to is ; In the past whoever wins are accepted as an acceptable Govt and largely we all pitch in and cooperate , however spin and contempt for the people or isolation , disenfranchisement for the people is happening ; look at Education for example , the only input to Edu the People have is to take a walk to private education , a very expensive solution that has closed about 29 state schools in the ACT alone ; This is a sad price to pay for Ideology transgressing into a no go zone ; The Democrats have'nt cottoned to this issue eg; Keeping the B's Honest . On the same vein the Bracks Govt is about to confiscate the Goulburn Valley's water , the Democrats should be enquiring about how Brack's intends to compensate the Goulburn Valley People , there is no water in the Waranga Basin as yet , if Bendigo runs out of water will Bracks worry too much about the Goulburn valley People ?

Aime

As a good thread. Love your white wine comment- funny as.

The Greens will be the winners from the Dems.
I think you will find they have a lot more say in the Senate.
There are many reasons for the fall of the Dems.
I dont mind the Greens and I think you will see a few bills passed for the better of this country.

Regardless of which party is elected we need laws to ensure Leaders divide their time fairly and represent their local people as well as supporting their interstate contacts.

The faliure to work within the area elected is certainly the problem in QLD.

Yes PALE, I'd tend to agree with you there. I know of several people who, tired of the 'same old, same old' coming from both major political parties, have decided to "go green" although I seriously doubt they'll get the top spot since even the ALP requires a swing of 17 seats to win.

I still maintain the Coalition will just sneak in, but with a loss of Senate control which is probably the best outcome anyway.
The economic bubble will eventually burst and probably due to tightening oil supplies which will affect productivity and the economy within the next 5 years (as warned by the IEA) and whoever is in power at the time will be blamed for poor economic policy. Better it be Howard's mob, which will prove beyond doubt that his "wonderful economy" is more about good luck than good management.

Whats wrong with the Democrats?

They don't seem to have an agenda or a plan. Or maybe just not communicating it clear enough.

Fellow_Human, the Dems seem to have a reasonable set of policies and along much the same lines as the two majors. I think the latter half of your equation is the most likely. For what ever reason, the Democrats are simply not being heard or the media have decided to ignore them. Not hard to do when Australian media is controlled by a couple of entities and welded to the Liberal agenda.

Aime
We tried to assist the QLD Branch.
It got to the stage we simply gave up from lack of interest- and it wasn`t ours either.

I spoke to Andrew several times about strenght with the local QLD people.

We offered free offices and non paid staff.
New leader several days before she was officially posted and I had a long chat.
She was amazed when told the offers that were ignored.

She said she would make sure people who had offered their services were contacted.
Nothing ever happend.
We continued to try to support them anyway.
Several of our people emailed , phoned their office from two months before the elections to see if they were needed to help at the booths.
Nobody bothered answering.

On the day of the elections we noticed nobody was their for them at the schools here on the gold coast.
We found a box of vote dems somebody had simply left their and took it upon ourselves to at least hand them out.
Not so long after that we held a rally to protest the live Animal Export trade in Surfers Paradise.
We were stunned when several animal liberation people arrived claiming Andrew had instructed them not to stand next to us on world animal day.
Two of the people were in fact the same!ladies who helped hand out the how to vote papers for the Dems.
Needless to say its not a good way to treat the locals who supported you.
Especially when they were the only ones!

Andrew we are informed simply sticks with his veggie friends and shuns others.
What really upset the people we know was his veggie mates are not even in QLD.
Putting aside ALL personal feelings- Its simply wrong for these leaders to refuse to give equal time to all.

Especially when these people were his local QLD people who voted for him and supported him.

There were one hundred and twenty people in all Ammie and I would suggest thats a hundred and twenty votes QLD Dems wont be getting next time.

Andrew
If you are reading this as we are speaking of keeping the bastards honest please answer the following questions.

Why did you take no interest in the subbmishion to your senate enquiry into Animal Welfare lodged by the Australian federation Of Islamic Council PALE and RSPCA QLD[ this one]-?
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

Also why did you personally according to your web master order her to remove this from your web page shortly after.>?
http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

Considering you have been the face of Animal Welfare in Australia for many years its extremly cuorious you would ignore a two thousand year step ahead for Animal Welfare.

Then of course you ingorned the AFIC media Release put out by Muslim leaders of Australia asking the media to be reasonsible and report the REAL reasons for this barbaric trade.

Last but not least why didnt you tell the public AWB were live exporters at the enquiry?[ After all it was in their interest and we sent you the proof docs.[ We sent it to your veggie friends as well.

Are they fund raisers or is this political or both?

So speaking of keeping the bastards honest Andrew how about you explain your actions[ and lack of]

Whats the matter Senator did these people do their job too well.?
By the way didnt the Dems always give their preferences to Labour?

At least Bob Brown is fair dinkim- like him or hate him

PALE, you've obviously been given some undertaking in the past that the Democrats would be interesting in supporting your cause. It's equally obvious that you at one time considered them a likely ally and have since been disappointed.
I'm afraid I'm not privy to all that transpired between your group and the Dems and feel this is not the place to delve further into the matter. I do, however, have your email address from previous correspondence and will email shortly providing you with the opportunity to provided a full explanation of your dealings with the Australian Democrats.

Ammie.

No

Never was given an undertaking.

Took years to get a reply.

Then it was only because Silvia [ one of Andrews old contacts] rang him emailed him over the next three years.

fyi Andrew used to be the President of Animal liberation many years ago in Brisbane.

It was because we heard that we felt we had an ali.

Pluss of course he was our local QLD rep.

We noticed he had at that time on his web page Animal Welfare groups from Melbourne and wanted to introduce ourselves as a Local QLD group.

We were very excited about the fact the Muslim Leaders of Australia [ AFIC] were working together with us to try to get the truth out to the members of the public on the live animal export issue.

If you scroll down the bottom of this page you can read their Media R-
http://www.livexports.com/

I received your email and I have answered questions as best as possibly given time.

I am not sure if this thread isnt the right place to answer questions however Ammie.

You asked the public to comment on -Whats wrong with the Democrats
and I posted on some of our experiences.

Isnt it only fair that the other readers get to see the questions and answers.

fyi Ammie. Andrew did attend one of our meetings several years ago.

PALE invited him to meet with the CEO[at that time] myself members of the AMIEU and Peter Beatties reps.

It was a proposal to the QLD Government to spear head co joint owned Halal farms and plants to provide training and jobs to Aboriginal and Regional areas of QLD.

Of course by doing this it was fazing out sending the Animals live.

What a wonderful policy for the Democrates to have adopted.

What a missed oportunity.

There has been no Interest from the QLD Leader of the Democrates nor head office.


I also wish to make it clear to all readers this post is not! about Animal Welfare.

It is however in Answer to your thread.

Whats wrong with the Democrates.


?

I don't give a damn about live animal exports.

Stevenlmyer

We dont care what you dont care about Steven.
You dont have to give a dam about Animal Cruelty Steven.
As a matter of fact I went to great pain to outline my post had nothing to do with Live exports.
Ammies Question was- Whats wrong with the Democrats.

I am doing my best to answer her. Of course as my work is regardings Animal Welfare it would be my point of contact with the Democrats.

I would have thought most people understood that.

My answer went to the bone of Ammies thread and provides some answers to her question.

Has it ever occured to people that their is no Bill to oversea how a Senator performs.? Once elected they seem to be answerable to nobody.

Lets say for example you are a Senator and you are meeting and working with a group who support the kids for cancer in another State.
I think that everybody would agree as a member of Parliment and as a person that could only a good thing.

However what if that same Senator ONLY met with the interstate and refused the local group helping the local kids. That would not be a good thing.

When you start ignoring your local people it usually reflects in the polls.

Thats One thing you can put down on your list in Answers to What`s Wrong With The Democrats.

Of course I can really only speak for QLD

Of course on top of that you have to also take into consideration people who have no compashion for the suffering of others.

That would explain much in this world.

Be it Animals Suffering or the local people.
The QLD Senator certainly DOES have compashion.
So I guess its a strange case of misloyalty.
Whatever it is its a great shame Ammie because more than the Animals miss out.
The locals miss out and the Animals however so do the Democrats.

Stevenlmyer


By the way its a bit rich of you to post the thread - A Plea to Fellow Muslims for unity only to be publicly seen bagging the Muslims Leaders progect - Isnt it?

You say you are not interested in Live Exports.

Thats what the Muslim Leaders were doing up here in Brisbane when we invited the Senater of the Democrats to join us.

Our organisation working with a MOU with Muslim Leaders find this very disapointing.

You are publicly opposing the Muslims progect while calling on fellow Muslims for unity.

Perhaps you are not unaware of what the Muslim Leaders Of Australia are working on.

So that leaves me wondering which Muslims you are asking to work in unity.

Here is what Muslim Leaders were saying at a meeting with QLD Democrats. Senater Andrew Bartlett of QLD also attended. http://www.livexports.com/afic.html
http://www.afic.com.au/



Right at the Time Muslim Leaders are putting out media releases about live exports and working on progects to faze it out.
You my friend say you dont give a dam.
Then you call on fellow leaders for unity?

I thought the Democrats had problems.

LOL Pale

What on Earth makes you think I am a Muslim?

For the record, I am an atheist.

Stevenlmeyer.

This Did-

My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror.

Thread started by stevenlmeyer on 1/7/2007, at 7:28:51 PM.

LOL Pale,

I think you should have read the posting before concluding from the title that I am a Muslim.

In fact I was quoting the headline of a column written by Hussein Butt that appeared in the Guardian. Butt is generally reviled by Muslims.

I am, and so far back as I can remember, have always been an atheist. Since I'm 61 going on 62 that's a long time.

Aime
Well its back to you. I sent you a lot of info when you emailed me at my private address.
I am just wondering to be honest why bother having a thread if you dont want people to post so the public can read it.

There was at least an hours writing in my reponse to you.

People will loose interest if you do not reply.

Look as you have not replied to my reply either I think I would prefer to say on this public forum.
That way everybody can read what I said and what you said.
Very few people actually open a thread then write direct to the private email address.

I dont know why you choose to do that but I stick by what I say.

I answered your enquiry very honestly but received no reply.

Lets face it it you could be anybody writing to me.
I put my phone number on my reply but heard nothing from you.

I dont mean to be rude but I am feeling a little uncomforatable and prefer to stick to an open public thread.
I await your reply.

'

Part 1.
Firstly PALE, I do hope that by now, you've checked your email and discovered that I have in fact replied, stating my reasons for not getting back to you in full. I didn't actually read your message until mid yesterday afternoon. I work unusual hours and have to fit a lot in between, so please be patient.
he very best in your endeavors. I personally know a couple of farmeSecondly, I originally emailed you directly out of respect for the fact that you may not like your business between you and the Dems discussed on a site as public as this. I guess that reflects the great value I place on my privacy and was simply allowing you the same courtesy.
I do appreciate the volume of your email and I thank you for taking time out of an obviously busy schedule to make that reply, however, since I only get two full days off per week (this being the first) and living on my own, I have to get as much work done on my property as time will allow and will therefor be otherwise engaged for most of today. This evening, I'll go back over your email when I have time to digest it properly and will make a reply to this site concerning same.

I might just add, your last post had more than a tinge of suspicion embedded in it and aimed at myself. To put your mind at ease, I am who I say I am. It's also why I chose to use my correct given name when posting, however I don't wish to give any further information when using this site. Most people on here seem genuine and respectful, but it is the Internet after all and who knows how many nutters are lurking out there.
I also believe that I'm a person of great honor. If I feel that I've upset anybody in hast, I tend to regret later it at my leisure, therefore, I must apologise for taking the liberty of contacting you directly via email. It won't happen again.

Part 2.
PALE, I wish you all the best in your endeavors. I know several farmers who, like Steven, couldn't care less about the barbarity and callous cruelty inflicted upon exported animals. All they see is the dollars flowing in to prop up otherwise unproductive farming practices. I never mention live exports to them any more. One in particular is also a deeply feeling person whom I hold in great respect, but he's caught between a rock and a hard place. To sell out his family and farm, or to sell to the live trade industry. PALE, you've made a tough call to fight the live export trade.

PALE, you will notice an uncharacteristic 'cut and paste' error in my "Part 1" post. That's the trouble with word limits. I had to hurriedly cut and paste some of the content into a 'Part 2' post and messed it up. Hopefully the context will not be lost.

PALE, I noticed you haven't posted again today. I've been trained to ignore human sentiment, yet even so, I can't help feeling a little annoyed by your 'hit & run' post earlier this morning. Still, I said I'd read through your email and reply on this site and having had the time to read through it as promised, I must say that I'd find it hard to reiterate on each point you wrote in your email without including the entire two sided conversation, which due to word limit, is quite impossible.

PALE, you once asked me to contact you again after my particularly heavy work schedule last June had ended. It sounded like a friendly invitation to email you in the future, which I did a couple of days ago. That message was meant to be a personal and friendly communication from me to you. I really didn't expect you to respond the way you did on this forum. I'm sorry, but I now feel it would be best if we walk our own paths. I have removed your email address from my address book and I expect you to do the same with mine. I might also add that I believe this is my last allowable post for the next 24 hours, so should you reply to this post, be aware that I am unable to respond for at least 24 hours.

Aime

I apoligise.

The truth is I did not get your email but that was not your fault.
After I read your post I went down stairs to our other office and there it was.

We have seven computers and every now and then they go hay wire.
Yes I guess I have to addmitt I started to be concerned thinking perhaps it was somebody else playing games.


There has been plenty of that.

I appreciate the offer Ammie to keep some of comments private.

We are just a bunch of straight members of the public who tell it like it is.


We want to know why we were warned that QLD Democrats would never work with us and if we wanted to know anything we would have to go through an interstate.

So Yes We Want to know Whats Wrong with the Democrats in QLD

Any Senator has a duty to treat his local people with the same repect as people from another state.

What has come out of this is even John Howards office agree we need a Bill to ensure a Sentor divides his or her time equally between their own electorate and others.

We need a Bill to keep the bastards honest. We especially want to know why QLD Democrats you showed no interest in our unique MOU with muslim Leaders working to faze out live exports and create jobs for aboriginal people in QLD.

Whats wrong with the Democrats indeed.?

I put my number on the email because there is too much to write if your really interested about the this issue of the Democrats. You asked and We tried to give some answers. Although I agree it cant really be done here- space given.
We certainly wont miss them and we will contiune to jig to get to the bottom of this clicky unfair system that is well enternched because I tell you this much Ammie.
I think the Democrats have pulled the wool over many peoples eyes with their ALP buddies and preferences.

Please refer to posts in response to Andrew Bartlett's article "A crisis in housing affordability" at:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4834#53462

A serious flaw in the Democrats (and the Greens I might add) is their refusal to acknowledge that overpopulation, driven principally by record high immigration, is a major driver of many of our social, economic and environmental problems. In particular, it is the principle cause (as openly anticipated and welcomed by land speculators and property developers) of Australia's housing hyper-inflation.

Of course many will throw up their hands in horror at any questioning of the sacred cow of uncritical support for whatever levels of immigration Australia's growth lobby (http://candobetter.org/sheila/growthLobbyAndImmigration.pdf) deems necessary to serve their narrow sectional interests, but with our capital cities now running out of water, and rural communities such as that in the Mary Valley (http://www.savethemaryriver.com) threatened with inundation by dams in an attempt to make up the shortfall in the supply of water, it is a question that deserves some serious attention within the Democrats especially if it wishes tp be taken seriously as an environmental organisation.

Also, please refer to a question I put to Andrew Bartlett which has yet to be answered at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6002#85110 in response to his article "Australia’s oversized footprint". The question I put was:

"Andrew, last time we discussed population levels, you countenanced immigration of around 110,000 (see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4099#29482).
had you noticed that annual immigration might be as high as 300,000? (See Ross Gittins 'Back Scratching at a National Level', 12 June 07 at http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/backscratching-at-a-national-level/2007/06/12/1181414298095.html) of which only 13,000 are classified as humanitarian immigrants?"

Dagget, that "candobetter" link is a rather long read and I need time to sit down and go over it properly, but a brief run-through appears to confirm my belief that immigration is much more than simply excessive in this country. Actually, it's one of my pet hates and if you have any other links to groups that oppose such high levels of immigration. I'd welcome them.

I actually wrote a letter to the Democrats in relation to this issue and so far have only received a prompt, but cursory reply. It seems that all political parties are tarred with the same brush...... massive immigration, or perish!

Yet, I'm sure even the immigrants came here because of what they perceived Australia to be, a land of wide open spaces and affordable housing. Mind you, a legal immigrant has it far, far better than a struggling young couple attempting to enter the housing market. I may be wrong, but aren't new immigrants given a Government hand-out to the tune of $70,000 each as a means of establishing themselves? If not, how is it that newly arrived immigrants in my nearest large inland city are driving around in late model Commodores and brand new Hyundais? My youngest son and his wife are paying off a mortgage and have to make do with a 17 year old car. I'm sure they would welcome a $70,000 hand-out to give them a "leg up!"

And before anyone starts, no! I'm not racist. I welcome all people no matter their religion (or not), their color or their country of origin. My gripe is with any Government who insists on flooding our beautiful country with excessive numbers of people who in turn place excessive strains on our ability to provide the basics of life.....water, shelter and food.

Aime,

I think you'll find that the government does not hand out $70,000 to new immigrants.

There are however requirements for new immigrants to show that they will be able to support themselves and not become dependent on welfare, so that new commodore you see them driving around, is most likely bought with their own money.

Properly managed immigration continues to bring in new skills and new cultures, that if we stopped immigration we would miss out on, becoming less able to compete on an international stage, and to be frank worse off culturally.

Yes James. Properly managed immigration I fully agree with. "Properly managed" should reflect a stable population yet it's apparent that the Government is bringing in massive numbers of immigrants in order to prop up economic conditions. More people equal more spending, especially, if as you say, people arriving here have the means to contribute to the merry-go-round of increased spending to stimulate the economy.

I will retract the $70,000 hand-out as a general application to immigrants. I'm thinking about the Ballarat intake of 50 families of Sudanese. I was told by someone working in welfare who, for their own job security, shall remain nameless, that the Ministry of Housing put these people on top of the waiting list in order to ensure Ballarat got them first. Ballarat council has the same approach as the Federal Government in wanting an exploding population to stimulate further the local economy. I'll stop short of saying the Ballarat council is corrupt, but some very shady deals concerning property have been done in recent years which has favored land developers. More people need more houses which is why the council was desperate to take in the new arrivals at the expense of locals who struggled whilst being pushed to the bottom of the public housing waiting list. The Ballarat council will take anybody, hence the rise in crime, vandalism, bashings, house break-ins and traffic congestion on roads never designed to support such a rise in personal transport.

But, Ballarat isn't alone in the push to capitalise on heavy immigration. It's happening everywhere you look, but it's simply not sustainable into the future. Our resources are diminishing and our future generations, no matter where their parents were born, will know nothing but misery because of the short sightedness of current Government policies.

Aime
You ought to consider throwing your hat in the ring.
Its a well known fact we have taken the dregs instead of holding out like some countries.
btw. I think its actually a much higher number if you add up students who are often handed a PR on a plate and people with working visa.
These people are not mixing.
You have focks of this culture here and another culture there.
You cant open your mouth anymore in this country without being called rasist.
I am not sure we can actually hold the Democrats reponsibly but they seem to spend more time going on about migrants and little about their local people and jobs for them

I think you will find they do get a lot of votes through the Aussie migrants.

Does anybody know Rudd thoughts on numbers coming into Australia?
A great eader warned back in the 1940s that Australia could never carry too many.
We need to close our boarders.
Up here in QLD the locals are being pushed out by everybody arriving to get away from the strong migration numbers in their states.
Almost everybody I have spoken to that have relocted here said it was because they are sick of these gangs and sick of people not speaking English down South.

Your right. We have no water and if somebody does not stop the flow of people arriving here we will end up a third world country for sure.

If anyone doubts the stupidity of high immigration into a country that is running out out water and which is losing it's biodiversity read this:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/NATIONAL/Qld-govt-rejects-population-cap/2007/04/22/1177180460654.html

But Deputy Premier Anna Bligh said a population cap was a simplistic solution that would place pressure on the economy.

"The only way we could really do that is to put a fence up at the (Queensland) border, or to cancel or freeze all new home building approvals," she said.

"That would have a very serious impact on the construction industry that a lot people rely on for jobs."
(end of quote)

Get that: we are encouraging people to move to Queensland even though we don't heve enough water, our hospitals can't cope with the demand and our roads often grid-locked during peak hours because we have to keep people employed.

So, how are today's new arrivals to be employed? One would have to assume from what Anna Bligh said, by importing even more people so that more houses can be built. And how are those yet newer arrivals to be employed?

And these words came from the mouth of someone who is reputedly left-wing and from a student activist background. If Senator Andrew Bartlett were simply to stand up against this complete stupidity, he, together with possibly a second Democrats Senator from Queensland would be assured of being re-elected in the forthcoming elections.

PALE, you said I should consider 'throwing my hat in the ring' but my location makes it extremely difficult to do anything from here. I moved away from the closest major inland city many years ago and have established myself in a low impact lifestyle. The Internet has allowed me to keep up with what's really happening in the world rather than what Murdock's paper empire rams down our throats and at times I get very angry at the way politicians destroy the little person only to grovel to huge corporations from other countries, but in reality, there's little I can do on my own from way out here.

My work colleagues are tired of my warnings about the coming shortfall in world oil supplies and unsustainable populations, but I don't really blame them. They're caught up in their own private worlds of putting their kids through the very best schools, complaining about the state of the carpets in one of their rental houses....well, you get the picture. Most of them have husbands, wives or partners who work full time. In short, they're living life to the full without stopping to consider what might happen to them should part of their world come crashing down.

Dagget, I read you Age link you provided and it leaves me shaking my head. Why can't they see that the economy they worship so much is a false idol, yet with enough power to ruin all we hold dear?

James Purser (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=818#14667),

When you write, "if we stopped immigration we would miss out on, becoming less able to compete on an international stage" you are presumably referring to skilled professionals poached from poor third world countries because this government and its corporate backers are too lazy and too miserly to train Australians?

I think that this argument in favour of immigration, where advocates of high immigration would have us believe that they are motivated by humanitarian compassion, is revealing. Indeed, if you read Sheila Newman's excellent 2002 Master's Year thesis, "The growth lobby and its absence" (pdf 2.6MB), downloadable from http://candobetter.org/sheila, you would find that the principle advocates and beneficiaries of high immigration, are in fact, property speculators and property developers.

In point of fact, if you were to read the chapter "Defence" in the recently published "National Insecurity - The Howard Governments Betrayal of Australia"(http://shop.atmitchell.com/product_info.php?products_id=1194, see also review I wrote at http://candobetter.org/node/96), you will find that Australia was,in fact a very technologically advanced nation in the 1930's and 1940's at a time when immigration was very low. The book argues that
Australia's military preparedness, based upon our technological capabilities "was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what saved Australia from invasion in 1942". Geoff Davies in Economia also argued that Australia was a technoligcally advanced nation back then.

In any case, isn't it time we got past the idea that the only way for the international community to progress is through constant cut-throat competition? Isn't it time, given the grave threats posed by climate change, resources depletion and loss of biodiversity that countries began to cooperate instead?

---

As for the 'cultural' argument, this is nothing more than 'cultural cringe' garbage. Australia's culture is not, nor never was, inherently worse (or, for that matter, better) than foreign cultures. It was the right culture, more or less, for this country's environment.

Simply overwhelming this culture with foreign cultures, instead of sensibly and gradually integrating appropriate aspects of foreign cultures, is a recipe for social and environmental disaster.

Okay lets knock over the "Australia scared off the Japanese with its amazing technological prowess" thing first.

The reason we weren't invaded was not due to our technology, it was due in large part to the American fleet smacking every Japanese convoy it could find, and our soldiers/militia making the Japanese fight step by bloody step over the Kakoda Track. By making sure they couldn't get supplies while we were falling back on an ever shortening supply line, the Japanese were worn down.

Australia's industrial capacity at the time was by no means the best in the world.

As to the claims of being flooded by different cultures. Here's some numbers from the last census on where recent immigrants have arrived from(2006):

Lebanon: 757
China: 8435
New Zealand: 11688
United Kingdom: 15079

James, it doesn't matter who they are, what color they are or where they came from. In the year 2005, 203,700 new arrivals settled in Australia whilst a child was born every two minutes. We've now clocked up a population of over 21,000,000 people in an arid and mostly desolate continent, a continent that has few major rivers and those we do have are running at very low levels.

I'm not advocating a complete halt to immigration forever, but perhaps we should aim for close to zero population growth or at least very minimal population growth until it can be proven without doubt that climate change does not exist and that we are not on the eve of ever rising fossil fuel prices. I personally believe it's already too late to shut the door on the latter.

Climate change or the end of cheap oil will be catastrophic to our way of life, especially where more and more migrants are being crammed into Melbourne, Sydney and major centers along the East coast. Food will be scarce and the means to truck it from Queensland to Victoria or WA will evaporate. Actually, a reduction in population might not be a bad idea. To insist on the opposite for the perverse notion of expanding the economy is absolute nonsense.

By the way, are you the same James Purser that is currently running for a Senate ticket?

Aime,

I'm intending on running as an independent for the Senate yes.

My previous post pointing out the source of our immigrants wasn't meant to argue whether immigration is a good or bad thing, but rather to counter the rather hysterical complaint about "foreign cultures diluting our own".

James

Whats hysterical about that?

If you want any votes I strongly urge you to take a walk around Sydney and the suburbs.

Try finding someone to speak English for a start.

Either way Ammie is right. We have no water. Soon we wont have enough food. Just wait until they declay Australia war criminals and put sanctions up.

For those of you who think it wont ever happen here- think again.

Mind you the dairy farmers may get the last laugh because they are already being forced to sell their milk to China because the Australian public have been too selfish to care that they cant even come out even let alone make a profit.

The biggest majority of workers in this country has been the farmers.
They have screwed them to the wall. How on earth do you think our farmers can carry the work load and feed more and more people that we keep brining in.

BTW. There are over three hundred thousand arriving every four weeks James.
As far as I know that does not include the students who are promised PR if they study certain subjects.

Ammie
I would not worry about trying to educate your work buddies.
Just grow your own veggies and buy some chooks and let them live in their own selfish little world.

Until it actually effects them you are talking to deaf ears.
The world is richer for you in it but direct your energy into people who appreciate your brain and good intentions.
People like you are few and far.

I thank your parents who I am sure would be proud of you.

Its hysterical because its not backed up by any evidence. As I pointed out in my previous post, we are not being flooded by different cultures, our largest sources of immigrants have consistantly been the UK and NZ, countries which share our culture.

While there may be an argument towards limiting immigration on resource grounds (and I'm not convinced on that), ignorant bleatings about "we're being flooded by [INSERT HATED GROUP HERE]" hold no water with me.

As to your snide little remark about walking down a street in sydney and not being able to find an english speaker, I'd like to point out that Australians are no different overseas they will group together, prefer to speak their native tongue and not integrate. Its a natural thing for people to group together with people like them. The second generation is where you start to see integration happening.

James Purser,

Are you familiar with the adage "figures don't lie but liars can figure"? This sort of misleading use of statistics to conceal demographic changes now under way was demolished in Paul Sheehan's "Among the Barbarians", pp128-129 (1998) .

Why do you choose such obviously selective and incomplete statistics to 'prove' your point?

Why no figures from India, Pakistan, other South East Asian nations, Oceania, Middle Eastern countries other than tiny Lebanon, Africa or Latin America? Why couldn't you have given aggregates for these regions? Are your figures based on the 'official' figure or the higher actual figures of 300,000 as shown by Ross Gittins (http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/backscratching-at-a-national-level/2007/06/12/1181414298095.html)?

It is an indisputable fact that areas of Sydney, that were previously Anglo-Celtic are now predominantly populated by people from Asia and the Middle East. I lived in one such suburb in Sydney, Auburn, from 1991 until 1994.

In any case, I also happen to consider the cultures of the UK to be foreign. The culture of New Zealand is, perhaps, less so, but the high numbers of cross-Tasman immigrants is also of concern to me.

Regardless of cultural issues, the main concern is sheer numbers. With our continent running dry with the Murray Darling system on the brink of collapse, our top-soil being blown into the Pacific Ocean and trees being cleared at a frenetic rate in regions like South East Queensland causing native fauna which were previously listed as abundant to now be listed as endangered, I wonder what it would take to convince you that our numbers have already exceeded the natural carrying capacity of this country.

---
I am perfectly familiar with the false version of history which depicts Australia having been wide open to Japanese attack and ripe for the taking. I have responded in a new disssion topic "Can Australia ever be self reliant in defence" now awaiting approval.

Thank you for your support PALE. You're quite right about my attempts to inform my colleagues about the oil crisis or increasingly severe climatic conditions, however many of them are openly concerned about the numbers of migrants entering the country. The only reason I persist with preaching resource depletion ( but gently these days) is because, like all my friends, family etc, I want to pre-warn them about the possible repercussions of a future without oil and living in a country that politicians have, for years, treated like one vast and never ending quarry. I admire my friends and colleagues and love my family and yet it's a hard message to get out there.
I had an open and bitter argument with one of my sons concerning "peak oil." He understood exactly what I was saying, but preferred not to know. The very thought of losing his expected lifestyle caused him to direct the grief and anger of such a notion directly at me. It pains me to see him doing so well and knowing that the life he continually plans will most likely end in tears, but I daren't mention it to him again.

Back to you James. Perhaps you should do your own poll to ascertain as to whether or not Australians are concerned about immigration levels. I believe Dagget to be right in that immigration levels are much higher than the Government would like us to know. I've thought to start another post about it, but I doubt the randomness of OLO would be reflective of the general population.

Aime,

I have conducted my own poll amongst people I know, both those would consider themselves supporters of the right and of the left.

Amongst those conservatives their concerns about immigration relate more to security and cultural dilution rather than any resources issue. Amongst the left the concern about immigration is more about our country meeting its international obligations regarding refugees and ensuring that the process is fair and transparent.

As I said, I am more than happy to have a real discussion about resources and the populations affect on our usage of such, however once race/cultural bias comes into it, thats when I stop, because generally those who hold such biases tend to be intractable, believing any who think differently to be "do-gooders" or "lefty whingers".

Correct me if you believe I'm wrong James, but I don't think I've said anything that could be construed as being culturally biased or racist. This isn't about race, creed or color. This is about my belief that we should at least create a status quo on population for a decade or more until we see just where the two major issues confronting mankind are heading......the end of cheap oil and climate change.

And with all due respect James, you're reference to polling people you know isn't indicative of how the general Aussie population feels about immigration. No matter how much you might wish to deny the fact, people you know don't always reflect their true thoughts for the very simple fact that you DO know them. They may simply be reacting to the way they think you want them to react. Also, how many were there? I believe you need to poll at the very least, one thousand people, ten thousand would be better, to ascertain any real depth for the issue at hand.

Aime,

I should have been more clear who I was aiming that last post at, it wasn't you, because as you said, you hadn't said anything that would lead me to believe that you were racist.

As to the sample size, by necessity it was restricted to those people I know. I do not have the funding to be able to conduct a poll of the type you have suggested, though I would be interested in seeing the results.

James P

It would be helpful if you adressed your reply to the person its directed.- In this case it was myself.

Yuo SO wrong about me its laughable. No James I am not racist.
As a matter of fact I am the only one here who actually works very closely with Muslim Leaders of Australia.

To the best of my knowledge I am the only one to have a MOU with
them.

You can see me here on "their" web page by clicking on HKM where you see the doves .
http://www.afic.com.au/

Aime is correct and your - Simple.

Not that I can see that has much to do with Whats wrong with the Demcrats.
Pehaps Amie later may another thread ane I will find he time to log a few things.

James you dont ave to have a party to involed in projects.
Just two weeks ago I called a meeting between Muslim Leaders Aboriginal Leaders and Ministers in QLD to open a plant for export with aboriginal councils Muslim People Reginal Aussies.

I also intend to open a Ag school for boriginal kids with training and a culture center.
Its a start with a great deal more to be done. I have been working on it for two years.
But if everybody just got in and did something instead of grandstanding the country would be better off.

I just wish we had more Amies and less James in this country.
No I am not racist and you idiots that accuse everybody of being racist because they have an opinion are not what I call Aussies either.

TarynW,

Seriously, I applaud your work with muslim groups on animal welfare. I also support your efforts to provide skills training for aboriginal kids. However comments about walking up streets in Sydney and not finding anyone who speaks english are not that helpful and lead me to believe that while you may feel comfortable with some groups, you don't with others.

If you want to call me an idiot and "un-australian" because I hold views different to you, then be my guest that's your right. However don't expect me to agree with you, or the concept of "un-australian" a trite little phrase usually trotted out by people so that they don't have to deal with the other persons ideas.

James
Well there is a problem and especially around Sydney.
Its the Governments fault not theirs but there is little point pretending otherwise.
We ALL must make an effort to change it.
It IS annoyng not to find people speaking English in the shops of ur birth towns. Its insulting really.
Its just as annoying for people to pretend there isnt a problem.
Only by working really hard and being open and honest will we ever get anywhere.
We need Australians to open their homes on a Sunday afternoon and invite Muslim neighbours and we need Muslim Neighbours to do likewise.
Dont wait for the Government to suggest it because they were not smart enough to do it years ago.
That is why we have gangs of young middle East kids feeling they need to flock together and a bit left out.
Then of course we have our Aussie youth that frankly often needs a good kick up the You know where] to even begin to understand some of the things these others have been through before they entered this lovely country of ours.

TarynW,

Now I can agree with most your last post. A huge whack of understanding all round would do this country a world of good. However as you say, this requires effort, and what I find is that people aren't prepared to put in that effort. Instead they form an opinion based on incomplete information, or their own biases, and are not willing to even reach midway in an effort to understand the other side.

They say history repeats, and while people are willing to let it, it will.

James
Yes that is very true James. Its not just we Australians either.
Now getting back to this thread if you are dinky die I would welcome a email address to contact you on. Do you have a web site I can look at?

TarynW,

Yup, have a look at http://jamespurser.com.au , you can find contact details for me there.

Has anyone here ever read Evelyn Waugh's wonderful satiric novel, "Black Mischief?"

For an excellent review see:

http://www.portifex.com/ReadingMatter/BlackMischief.htm

My favourite characters are Dame Mildred Porch and Miss Sarah Tin of the Dumb Chums Club. (prob the RSPCA). They visit the mythical kingdom of Azania to spread the good word on animal rights.

Quotes from review:

The unsoundness of Dame Mildred is brought through when she writes to her husband,

I enclose cheque for another month's household expenses. The coal bill seemed surprisingly heavy in your last accounts. I hope that you are not letting the servants become extravagant in my absence. There is no need for the dining-room fire to be lit before luncheon at this time of year.

The letter is followed by diary entries that eloquently betray Dame Mildred's unbearable personality.

No news train. Wired legation again. Unhelpful answer. Fed doggies in market place. Children tried to take food from doggies. Greedy little wretches. Sarah still headache.
.
.
.
.
As the menu suggests, the ladies' mission has not been properly comprehended by the Azanians; this becomes even clearer when the sinister Viscount Boaz proposes a toast.

Ladies and gentlemen, we must be Modern, we must be refined in our Cruelty to Animals. That is the message brought to us by our guests this evening.

James
Thanks
Steven
This looks interesting. I will read it as soon as possible.
I dont have a great deal of time to repond now as its very late Am but its good to cross post with an intersting mind.
There is no easy answers I am afraid.
I just do my little bit in the hope it helps.
What I am personally careful of falling into the veggie trap because people then dismiss you as extreme.
I think if we work towards agreed small improvements and try to educate people we can make one change for the better at a time.
This is true of most things in life.
Wish there was an easier way.

At post no. 17, I thought the conversation had run it's natural course. I was quite surprised to see it fire up again and run as long as it has.
My original question "What's wrong with the Democrats" has been largely answered and will add to the information I require in order to cast a well informed vote (or not) later in the year, however, the post now seems to have digressed into other areas, as most posts eventually do, but that's ok.
Since a couple of other interesting posts have taken center field, perhaps one of authors could open a couple of them in a different area where they might be debated at greater length?