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The Forum > General Discussion > Ban Political Donations From The Gun Lobby 

Ban Political Donations From The Gun Lobby 

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There is increasing concern that the gun lobby in Australia is exerting undue influence in conservative political circles, with increased donations to political parties. Almost $500k was donated to Katter’s Australia Party. With substantial donations made to the Liberal/National Parties, The Shooters Party, Labor Party and Senator David Leyonhjelm. 
Community safety is at risk if the gun lobby is free to hand over money to political parties and then lobby those same parties to weaken gun control measures.
Just as political donations are banned from undesirable organizations like the tobacco and gambling industries, so they should be banned from the firearms industry.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 15 February 2018 10:11:37 AM
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Ban Political Donations, period.

Democracy should not be for sale to the highest bidder.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 February 2018 10:34:41 AM
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Toni, you would not get any great argument from me, if that was to be the case.

At least 17 killed as gunman goes on the rampage once again in Florida USA.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 15 February 2018 10:40:19 AM
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//At least 17 killed as gunman goes on the rampage once again in Florida USA.//

Another school shooting. I am amazed at how remarkably crap Americans are at learning from past mistakes. I don't imagine they'll learn from this one, either. Poor dumb buggers.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 February 2018 10:50:27 AM
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as long as we also ban union money going to Labour/Greens I have no trouble with that.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 15 February 2018 11:45:09 AM
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What gun lobby. There is no gun lobby in Australia. We have the most draconian gun laws in the world, thanks to a knee-jerking John Howard, who went quite batty just before he lost his seat for going batty and trying to outspend the socialists. I no longer own guns, but if I wanted to do so again I would be treated by like a criminal. Ironically, the real criminals have no trouble getting guns.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 15 February 2018 12:27:10 PM
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Dear Paul,

Realistically, how are we going to ban political
donations?

Perhaps putting a cap on them would be a better idea?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 15 February 2018 12:43:56 PM
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God help us the next time the stuff really hits the fan. This will be double trouble for the greenies & others living in inner cities.

It will probably be a breakdown in our imported petrol & diesel supplies, but it could be a complete breakdown of government, when the western world goes bankrupt from over spending on welfare & windmills. No fuel means no food deliveries into cities. However very few will be prepared to become self sufficient, the way we could during the great depression.

34 years ago I bought a small 35 acre farm from an old bloke. It was the remains of the family 640 acre farm he lived on as a kid during the depression. Fortunately it was on a salt water creek between Hervey Bay & Bundaberg, which helped supply food.

No money, so their power was cut. They had 3 fish traps in the creek, illegal today, but they & a couple of crap pots provided an irregular food supply & a small surplus for barter. Most of their food was rabbits & wood ducks which were shot, also supplying a small surplus to exchange, & tanned rabbit skins which earned a bit of cash money.

They had a veggie patch, but it was 200 yards uphill from the dam, to carry water by bucket to suitable soil. The best thing was a couple of milking cows, giving butter & some cheese to sell or exchange locally & in town.

Once a month they would take the horse & cart to town with what they had to sell, & buy ammunition, flower, salt, sugar & tea. He preferred calico flower bags, as they made the best shirts & pants.

Without the 22 rifle they would have starved he reckoned.

How do you reckon you'll go Paul?
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 15 February 2018 2:19:54 PM
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Didn't take long for a Green to try to exploit the latest shooting in the US.

Wonder why the silence over the last big shooting in Afghanistan?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 15 February 2018 8:26:46 PM
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Just out of curiosity, Paul, what is the Gun Lobby?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 15 February 2018 8:49:48 PM
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//what is the Gun Lobby?//

A fun, wacky, ragtag assortment of gun-totin' rednecks, arms merchants and paranoid extremists who work, in a professional or volunteer capacity, towards building their dream of a violent dystopian future for all mankind.

Alternatively, may refer to this classic movie scene (try not to get too excited, old boy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuslUzbJEaw
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 15 February 2018 11:12:06 PM
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That's right Issy, these mass killings are rather inconvenient for you gunnies who want to project an image of a fantasy world of peace and harmony where guns proliferate. Mass killings should not be mentioned, they tend to upset the apple cart a little.

Issy, given that guns are so on the nose with mainstream Australians, and given those who want to promote guns are also on the nose, I can understand your reluctance to even admit a gun lobby exists in Australia.
As one wacko gun supporting politician will often say "Please explain!". In this case what is the political function of the cashed up Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia (SSAA)? If not to lobby (and finance) politicians.

A bit of light reading for you.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/the-killer-quirk-hiding-in-australias-gun-laws-20171006-gyvmho.htm
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 16 February 2018 3:57:30 AM
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"Realistically, how are we going to ban political
donations?"

Foxy, it was not me who proposed banning all political donations, the suggestion came from Toni, I simply said he would not get an argument from me on that score.

As for banning the likes of the SSAA from tossing wads of cash at politicians like they do, we have successfully band political donations from other vile industries like the tobacco industry. I can not see why we can't do likewise with the obnoxious gun industry.

Toni, thanks for the spot on description of the gun lobby, that should satisfy Issy.

Hassy, I read your post (twice), unless like you who wants to live in some fantasy Davy Crockett world I don't think there is much hope for the vast majority if we have to go self sufficient. you should watch the yanks on 'Doomsday Preppers', they could give you some tips.

Hassy, is the bald guy in the following YouTube, You? It could be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEcMtw4_UHo
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 16 February 2018 4:29:47 AM
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//Realistically, how are we going to ban political
donations?//

The same way we ban other things... an Act of Parliament.

//Perhaps putting a cap on them would be a better idea?//

So that lobbyists looking to buy influence have to make lots of small donations instead of one big one. Whilst I'm sure it would be a minor inconvenience, I doubt it would be sufficient to dissuade anybody from the odious practice buying democracy.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 16 February 2018 8:21:59 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

It is you who is clamouring for American style gun 'freedoms' for this country. You are part of the gun lobby. So here is a question for you. If you got all the revoking of gun laws you and your lobby were after and school shootings started occurring in this country at what point would you accept their reinstatement? 5 highschool kids in a single shooting? 10? 15? What about 20 primary school kids? What about nearly 60 sitting enjoying some music?

Love a straight answer.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 16 February 2018 8:35:12 AM
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Steele,

The straight answer is that your assumptions are wrong, I support the core of the current gun laws, all that I object to is the stupidities therein and the fact that Australians are denied the means to protect themselves.

It could be assumed that those who oppose firearms ownership condone home invasions, we already know that the Greens support the criminal element, hence their opposition to the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party proposition that criminal use of firearms receives a higher penalty and their objection to the use of Sniffer Dogs at airports etc. It made life hard for their mates.

Ther has just been a shooting in Sydney, a former prominent bikie was murdered.
How could this happen under our strict gun laws, or don't they work against criminals?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 16 February 2018 8:52:31 AM
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//Australians are denied the means to protect themselves.//

The standard refrain of the paranoid variety of firearm fanatic. 'The Government have secretly got it in for us! It's a conspiracy! They want to see us all murdered in our beds! They only want to take our guns away so we can't defend ourselves against the teeming hordes of murderous psychopaths that definitely exist, no matter what the crime statistics might say!'. It's like they've watched 'A Clockwork Orange' so many times that the boundaries 'twixt reality and fiction have started to blur, and now they see droogs on every street corner. Poor timorous wee buggers, must be awful to live your life in such a state of fear all the time.

I'm not entirely sure why they think guns are the only, let alone the best, form of home security. It's like they've never heard of sturdy doors, or large black dogs with orange eyebrows, or cunning traps for the unwary burglar, or indeed anything that doesn't go 'bang!'.

//How could this happen under our strict gun laws, or don't they work against criminals?//

As they so astutely (and frequently) point out, criminals have illegal firearms with which they do illegal things. To their simplistic way of thinking, the natural redress to this problem is to let everyone have firearms. They look at the situation and see it as a game of 'cops & robbers' where only the robbers have guns, which is just unfair.

And I agree, that would be unfair. But it's not a game, and the cops do have guns, and 'vigilante citizen militias & robbers' is not a game I want to see being played on the streets with real guns by real 'grown-ups' who should damn well know better.

//It could be assumed that those who oppose firearms ownership condone home invasions//

But you'd have to be pretty far gone to make an assumption like that.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 16 February 2018 10:31:38 AM
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Toni,

"I'm not entirely sure why they think guns are the only, let alone the best, form of home security. It's like they've never heard of sturdy doors, or large black dogs with orange eyebrows, or cunning traps for the unwary burglar, or indeed anything that doesn't go 'bang!'."

The best means of self-defence against knives or guns is to have a gun, that's why police have them.

Setting cunning traps for burglars is against the law and no premeditated active means of home defence is legal.

You may use the spray oven cleaner to save yourself from a perceived immediate life threatening attack in the kitchen but you can't keep it in the bedroom, that shews premeditation.

That's one of the stupidities.

Why isn't the use of a firearm in a premeditated crime worth 20 years without the option?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 16 February 2018 11:51:04 AM
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//The best means of self-defence against knives or guns is to have a gun//

Any research or anything that shows that guns are better at deterring intruders than, say, eight foot fences with pointy bits on top? Or is this one we're supposed to take on faith?

//Setting cunning traps for burglars is against the law.//

Not necessarily. You're entirely within your rights to detain somebody whilst effecting a citizen's arrest and it won't count as deprivation of liberty. There are ways of building traps that just detain people rather than injuring them.

Of course, if you're a fan of the Home Alone school of home security and actually looking to rough them up a bit, then you will have to be a bit more intelligent about it than Kevin McCallister when designing your cunning traps. If the police can detect premeditation then the trap doesn't count as cunning. The idea is to make it look like an accident.

Or you could just get a decent fence and a good security door, which is simple and effective. Maybe throw in a big black dog with orange eyebrows to deter cats as well as people (cats aren't a threat, I just dislike them). It's a bit like running away from a tiger: you don't need to be able to outrun a tiger, you just need to not be the slowest person being chased. It's much the same with home security: your house doesn't need to be Fort Knox, it just needs to pose more of challenge to potential intruders than your neighbour's does. Which house would you knock over if you were a burglar? The one with the big fence that you're going to have to scale and the scary dog on the other side of it, or the one without those things?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 16 February 2018 1:42:19 PM
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Toni,

The house with the security is the one to knock over, security spells money.
Big black dogs are a pushover, a bit of meat with some quick acting dope in it and the dog is history and the average security door is usually junk because it is ill fitted or just junk of itself.
Besides which the cunning thief doesn't go through doors or windows.

Why do police have pistols?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 16 February 2018 2:55:09 PM
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Careful there Toni, your 8ft. high fence just gives the intruders privacy once they have picked a unobserved spot or moment to cross it.

I do find it amusing to see that you & insurance companies appear to believe that a key locked glass window offers some security.

A Smith & Wesson .38 is the most useful close quarters security, with a 30 30 Winchester for more general defence. Either or both leave that dog for dead. If the dog is mean enough to be much use, it will be mean enough for someone to want it removed from your possession.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 16 February 2018 3:17:19 PM
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Some of you will appreciate a funny little story about where these gun hating clowns have got us today.

My son was instructing Navy officer cadets, during their 3 months introductory training. Some of these were mature intake, like doctors, nursers dentists & such, others just kids.

Apart from teaching them which end was the front & other such difficult concepts, they had to learn a little about guns, & have a couple of trips to the rifle range.

He was telling us of the first such group of 20 he had, including about 10 female nurses. After 20 rounds, only 3 of had hit the large 100 yard targets. He found they were jerking the trigger, so redid the trigger action training.

Back on the mound, they were still no better. It took close investigation for him to find that in fear of the loud bang, most were closing their eyes just before firing. No matter what he tried that day, about half could not keep their eyes open when firing.

Assuming the was talking about the girls, I asked him how the blokes had gone. The answer, this was the blokes, the girls were even worse.

Compare this to 60 years ago when as a school cadet officer, [CUO], I used to train a platoon of 30, 14 & 15 year olds on the range 4 times a year. All were fair shots, with most rounds hitting the target at 200 yards.

God help us if we need todays snowflakes to fight for the country.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 16 February 2018 3:56:43 PM
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Hassy that is such a funny story, I split my sides laughing. Snowflakes, not a problem when we have our very own Sargent Major in you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y2WIOa7CEI
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 16 February 2018 9:28:14 PM
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Ahh, I love sound of paranoia. It has a certain musical quality, don't you think? Perhaps that's just me. Either way, I think we can all agree that it is hugely entertaining.

//Why do police have pistols?//

They don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_uniforms_and_equipment_in_the_United_Kingdom
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 16 February 2018 10:46:30 PM
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Toni,

This is Australia where the police have pistols, in the UK, Northern Ireland police all carry pistols, around London and other cities the police tend to favour the machine carbine, the MP5 is one such.

You ought to read your own links.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 16 February 2018 11:35:56 PM
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//This is Australia where the police have pistols//

I've never said they shouldn't.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 16 February 2018 11:40:35 PM
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Issy, are you shocked to find you are part of the gun lobby? I do believe you are a member of the SSAA, or some such clandestine organisation, whose aims and objectives is the proliferation of firearms in society. The big lie peddled by the gun happy brigade;

"I support the core of the current gun laws, all that I object to is the stupidities therein and the fact that Australians are denied the means to protect themselves"

You do not support the core of the current gun laws, you want them jettisoned in favour of a guns for all ethos, where even children would be armed for so called self protection.

Generally on the forum, I find you a reasonable bloke, but on the question of gun control we are poles apart, as demonstrated by our years of jousting over that very issue.

You criticise the Greens for mostly supporting minorities, and minority issues, which I am proud to say we do, but on the score of gun control I believe we are very much in the majority camp, with mainstream Australia in total agreement with our policy.

Does not America teach you nothing? A dysfunctional gun society, which has gone completely off the rails when it comes to mass murder at the hands of gun criminals. The gun lobby in that country is so powerful that no matter how many atrocities are committed the country seems incapable of doing diddly-squat about it. Is that what you want for Australia, I am sure its not.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 17 February 2018 6:15:06 AM
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Paul,

Make up your mind.

" ... The gun lobby in that country is so powerful that no matter how many atrocities are committed the country seems incapable of doing diddly-squat about it. Is that what you want for Australia, I am sure it's not."

but earlier you said,

"You do not support the core of the current gun laws, you want them jettisoned in favour of a guns for all ethos, where even children would be armed for so called self protection"

One quote contradicts the other.

Green reasoning?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 17 February 2018 7:36:06 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

So not straight answer then. Thought not.

And what is this?

“This is Australia where the police have pistols, in the UK, Northern Ireland police all carry pistols, around London and other cities the police tend to favour the machine carbine, the MP5 is one such.”

Don't try and give the impression they are all armed when ess than 1 in 10 UK policemen carry a firearm. Why? Because they have adequate gun laws and because they don't let the kind of fear you are peddling change them.

And don't give me BS about not wanting us to take the US path. You want Australians in every home to have a firearm to 'protect themselves' when any fool would recognise putting that many guns into the community and having them accessible enough to stop a burglary would mean a terrible loss of life in our communities through suicide, accidental shootings, school shootings etc.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 17 February 2018 9:08:14 AM
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It's time to stop trying to equate guns in America with guns in Australia. In fact, it's time to stop looking for anything in Australia that is comparable with America. We are different cultures altogether.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 17 February 2018 9:57:48 AM
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Steele,

You asked for a straight answer and I gave you one.

"And don't give me BS about not wanting us to take the US path. You want Australians in every home to have a firearm to 'protect themselves' when any fool would recognise putting that many guns into the community and having them accessible enough to stop a burglary would mean a terrible loss of life in our communities through suicide, accidental shootings, school shootings etc."

How do you know what I think beyond what I tell you that I think?

Two girls were brutally raped and murdered in their flat in Melbourne some years ago, the perpetrator later attacked a man with a tyre lever, the victim had a pistol and shot him dead, now I think that you'd get a kick out of the rapes and shudder to think that the rapist was shot dead.

I wonder if my projections are as wild as your's are?

As a matter of interest, why do you think that there were not all the dire things that you predict when firearms were much more common in the community?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 17 February 2018 12:43:51 PM
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Of course they have a gun in every home in Switzerland by law.

That of course is the reason for their murder rate.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 17 February 2018 12:53:28 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

You wrote;

“Of course they have a gun in every home in Switzerland by law.”

No they don't. Stop making things up.

“That of course is the reason for their murder rate.”

Switzerland has over three times the rate of gun deaths per 100,000 than Australia.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 17 February 2018 1:09:56 PM
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No it does not Issy. On the one hand you believe in guns for all, you reason that guns are need for self defence purposes. On the other hand you will not acknowledge that a proliferation of gun in the community would also result in an massive increase in unjustified homicides, as we see in the US.

I don't believe you would want more murders and suicides, but with your simple reasoning you believe that a proliferation of guns in society could only have the one positive outcome, you can't, or wont, see the negatives which are clear for all to see, even you.

If Australia does as you want, and that unfortunately moves us to the point where America is now, with uncontrolled gun violence, it would be too late to take corrective action to right the situation. The US, despite the terrible outrages the community there is subjected to through gun violence, seems incapable of taking the necessary action to stop it. Much of the blame for gun violence in the US is the result of the actions of the politically powerful gun lobby. Its not going to happen in Australia! No matter how much the likes of the SSAA tries to influence politicians with their wads of cash.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 17 February 2018 11:24:45 PM
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No, Paul, I don't believe in guns for all, only for those who demonstrate a capacity for using them safely.
I believe in the gun laws, without them we would not now have political representation for shooters, hunters, collectors etc.

We would not have the growing number of well-appointed modern ranges.
On our range, the old, slow, manually operated turning rapid fire targets are gone and have been replaced with electronic targets that turn in a flash; the range is being extended to cope with the increase in membership and the disciplines fired.
There is also a Western Action range being built in the same complex (for that is what it is becoming).
There would be none of this without the gun laws and consequent Government grants.
Fifteen years ago our range was in an abandoned state but was still gazetted as a rifle range, it's resurrection is but one of many throughout country NSW.

John Winston Howard, the Father of the Australian Gun Lobby, is to be thanked.

I'm beginning to think that the anti-gun lobby is made up of second class citizens who can't meet the Government's criteria to be trusted with a gun.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 18 February 2018 12:00:11 AM
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Hi Issy,

"for those who demonstrate a capacity for using them safely" We have that now in the existing laws. By tightening gun laws we ensure that only those with a genuine need, and only those that are fully competent have guns in their possession. Self defence is not a genuine reason to own a gun. There is also no need for the possession of semi-automatic, and automatic weapons by the broader community.
No matter how much they say they support gun laws, it is clear the objective of the gun lobby is to water down gun laws wherever possible, and promote the acceptance of more guns in the community.

Curious; "a Western Action range" is that some kind of Dodge City, where you all dress up. Then hide behind water barrels and hay bales, and take pot shots at each other with your six shooters? If I come along can I be the town sheriff, and get to wear the tin star?
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 18 February 2018 5:49:32 AM
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For those who ask; Who are the Gun Lobby in Australia? I would've thought it's the 'Sporting Shooters Association'? Or am I wrong? Someone in the United States has got to make a stand, on their whole philosophy, on the availability and access to certain categories of F/A's. Failure to do so, and we'll see more of these tragedies occur.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 18 February 2018 9:59:18 AM
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Paul,

Are you going to give any details of the alledged political donations by the Gun Lobby, some references perhaps?

As for Western Action, it's a fast growing, family orientated discipline where people do dress up as western/cowboy characters and fire pistols, rifles and shotguns of the period.
No modern designs are allowed, all arms must conform to designs that are now well over 100 years old.
It's a lot of fun for those who are so inclined, it's not my cup of tea, I find that the inclination to Hollywood is stronger than any to historical accuracy.
The cowboys etc., of the Old West would have stained their britches in uncontrollable mirth!!

Have a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok1NMsz6L08
and
http://www.sasaoz.com/

They give a good idea of what goes on and note, the speed of firing, particularly "Savage Sam" with a 'slow' double barrel 1880s era shotgun.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 18 February 2018 10:22:49 AM
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"An analysis of the latest Australian Electoral Commission donation disclosures has revealed that firearms groups donated $353,000 to various federal political bodies around the country. The donations were made in the 2015-16 financial year, during a period when there was intense political focus on firearms regulation in Australia.
The largest donations – totalling just over $108,000 – went to Bob Katter’s Australian party, which received $75,000 from the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (Queensland) Inc and $33,332 from NIOA Nominees. Robert Nioa is the son-in-law of Katter and NIOA touts itself as Australia’s largest privately owned supplier of small arms."

"The Shooters, Fishers and Farmers party, which also received just over $104,000, disclosed donations of $17,000 from the Shooting Industry Foundation of Australia, $5,000 from the New South Wales firearms dealer Magnum Sports Pty Ltd and $30,000 from its own association entity the Federation of Hunting Clubs."

"The Liberal party received $46,000, which included $23,000 from Thales Australia Limited and $22,500 from the Shooting Industry Foundation of Australia."

"The Labor party also received $33,032 from Thales Australia."

Hi o sung wu, I think it is Trumps intention to act when things get really bad with guns in America. Not now things are pretty well normal, and there's no point upsetting Charlton Heston over one or two minor indiscretions.

In the mean time Trump will continue to praise the men and women of law enforcement, and those that deal directly with the carnage. He will continue with his feigned outbursts of sorrow. He will offer condolences to the families of those killed. He will have a hardy get well soon message, for the wounded and severely injured. The Americans are so lucky to have such a wonderful person steering the ship
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 18 February 2018 5:39:22 PM
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Issy, I was only having a lend of you about Dodge City. Now I find out that such people exist, its all for real! Are you Wichita Willy? What about Little Miss Lead Lover. These people should not be on the firing range, they should be in the psychiatric center, where they can watch re-runs of 'Gun Smoke' all day!

What about your local 'Burger and Bullets' franchise where a 9 year old girl shoot dead her instructor with an automatic uzi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGCKFzGAfQ0
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 18 February 2018 6:07:56 PM
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As I said, Paul, Western Action is not my cup of tea, or brand of 'Snake Eye', but they do seem to have a lot of fun.

Did you watch "Savage Sam" firing a double barrel shotgun faster than the dreaded Adler that frightens the Greens so much?
Here's a bit more on Sam,

"Savage Sam - Single Action’s World Champion
by Rachael Andrews
Australian & New Zealand Handgun 12

A young Australian SSAA member has defeated world-renowned shooters at the Single Action World Titles to become the first competitor in history to take the World Champion title out of the United States.

New South Wales shooter Sam Medway was just 12 months out of a debilitating work accident where he lost the use of his hand when he travelled to the US for the championships. ‘Savage Sam’, as he is known while competing, said he refused to believe doctors when they told him he may never get full use of his hand back, and that winning this title was the icing on the cake following hard work in rehabilitation.

“I’m pretty proud. This really is a dream achievement,” he said.

“It’s an international first for the title to leave the United States and it shows that it’s possible and you don’t have to be an almost-professional shooter to make it happen.

“It was something I wanted and didn’t want to let anything stop me...I knew this was my chance and I wasn’t going to let my injury stand in my way.”

The rehabilitation time for Sam was mixed with actually qualifying for the World Titles. The accident nearly severed his left arm, cutting all but one major tendon. But just weeks after having his cast removed, he competed in and won the Australian Single Action National Championships. He then went on to win the Trans Tasman Single Action event and followed this up with the overall New South Wales Male Single Action Champion, alongside his sister Jessie-Lea, who took out the Female Champion title."

http://ssaa.org.au/stories/2014_savage-sam-single-actions-world-champion.html

Now there's a young Aussie that we can all be proud of
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 18 February 2018 6:48:17 PM
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What can I say Issy, it just looks like a wholesome family fun day to me, conducted by a bunch of psychos. So you are not Wichita Willy?

Want to comment on those figs you asked for? Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Just a side, good to see scumbag Leyonhjelm took $20,000 from the that spreader of disease in the community Philip Morris Ltd. True to form, this bloke promotes such filth! I can cop your Shooters and Hooters Party, even the Lovely Pauline and her One Nation, Corny Banana and his Conservatives, at least they don't hide what they stand for, unlike the guttersnipe Leyonhjelm and his phony liberal democratic nonsense.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 18 February 2018 8:07:18 PM
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Paul,

Those donations are perfectly legal and don't amount to much in the grand scheme of things but I'd prefer to see no donations to political parties at all, let them fully fund their campaigns from money raised by their members.

What's the problem though with legal gun owners protecting their legal interests, isn't that one of the things that happen in a democracy?

Or does democracy ring a sour note?

If there were no political donations and the Sporting Shooters Association became a political party then they would not only have more members than any other party but more money; now there's a thought!!
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 18 February 2018 8:55:56 PM
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//As for Western Action, it's a fast growing, family orientated discipline where people do dress up as western/cowboy characters and fire pistols, rifles and shotguns of the period.
No modern designs are allowed, all arms must conform to designs that are now well over 100 years old.//

Oh Gods, 'historical' re-enactors... I bet they talk in silly accents and everything.

These are the sort of people that trainspotters think need to get a life. The only thing I can think of that is sadder than historical re-enactors is Morris dancers.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 18 February 2018 10:46:06 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Of course you want weapons in nearly all Australian homes and you have said as much. So a question if I may, what proportion of homes do you think would be disallowed a firearm under your rules?

Further I was down camping at Mt Cole in central Victoria about a month ago. Great 4WDing and campsite. It is state forest so shooting is now allowed. I hadn't been back for nearly a decade and it is evident has been taking off as the gun crowd have really elbowed their way in. We were doing one of the walks out of the Ditchfields camp site and we could hear rounds being fired, something I could probably live with except for the fact that virtually every sign near a road (these blokes don't like walking it seems) was full of bullet holes, even those at the campground. It gave me very little confidence of responsible usage.

So my second question; if someone is caught shooting up a sign (the ones depicting wildlife were favourites) do you think they should loose their licence and have their guns removed, after all this can hardly be deemed responsible use?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 18 February 2018 11:12:22 PM
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Steele,

Only homes that would be allowed a firearm would be those inhabited by trustworthy, trained people who met the Commissioner of Police's criteria.

"So my second question; if someone is caught shooting up a sign (the ones depicting wildlife were favourites) do you think they should loose their licence and have their guns removed, after all this can hardly be deemed responsible use"

No quarter whatsoever, they should lose their licence, have their firearms either sold or placed in secure storage until they demonstrate that they are fit to hold a licence again.
However, they should not lose their licence for a longer period than a vehicle driver who is found to be high-level DUI, and as motor vehicles are not confiscated ever when a person is killed or injured
then I see no reason why a gun owner who does something stupid, but hurts nobody should be penalized more than an erring motorist.

There is evidence that some road signs are shot, or otherwise damaged, by the antis to bring discredit on shooters; this becomes evident just before elections.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 18 February 2018 11:51:10 PM
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What was the "good old days" in the Wild West of America? A time of complete lawlessness, which seen the killing of innocent men, women and children. A time of the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans and their dispossession from their land. Reenactment!
They should start a Port Arthur reenactment group, taking turns at playing 'Mad Martin', family fun... dad can be Mad Martin, and the rest of the family can play his victims! Nothing different than that Wild West mob!.

"Only homes that would be allowed a firearm would be those inhabited by trustworthy, trained people who met the Commissioner of Police's criteria."
In other words those that filled out the form correctly.

I presummue this mob have gun licences;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok1NMsz6L08

"If there were no political donations and the Sporting Shooters Association became a political party"
You have a political party, its called the Shooters and Hooters Party! Along with some cash up supportive politicians, like the Mad Katter and Weasel Leyonhjelm.

"There is evidence that some road signs are shot, or otherwise damaged, by the antis,"

Put up the evidence Issy! I will be hounding you for it.

Yeah! We tried to frame the law abiding Al Capone once, but he was innocent.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 February 2018 3:50:12 AM
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Just to add, note the total lack of safety as these hillbillies run around shooting, carrying loaded guns around other people, loaded guns unattended, a rapid caress attitude while shooting, people standing close to shooters, unsafe metal targets. I am surprised no one has been killed yet by a stray bullet.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 February 2018 7:05:30 AM
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Paul,

Of course, they have Firearms Licences, otherwise they would not be allowed to compete or to purchase their rapid firing pistols, rifles and shotguns, ain't the 1890s technology great!!

Re the road signs.

From personal observation, an election or two back, signs along the Putty Rd (Windsor NSW, through to the Hunter) had been shot but there seemed to be an odd consistency about the angles at which they'd been hit so we stopped from then on and examined them.
All were hit in the approximate centre and at the same angle and there were tyre marks at many of them that were consistent with the same vehicle being stopped at the same distance from each sign.

On the Gwydir Highway between Inverell and Glen Innes, many of the larger road signs shew evidence of being shot with slugs from a shotgun, none have holes through them except one which has a SQUARE hole in it all the rest are large dents.
Close examination reveals that many of these dents have exactly the same marks in them consistent with the signs having been hit with a ball pein hammer with a long handle.

None of the smaller signs, such as those depicting kangaroos have been 'shot' nor those signs that are hard to reach.
The signs warning of deer were never affected as they were stolen as quickly as they were erected and they are no longer put up.

The evidence is there, go and have a look.

I had a quick Google but could find nothing on road signs being shot in Australia but I did find an interesting reference to Britain, where firearms are very strictly controlled.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509855/Bullet-hole-Britain-The-road-signs-used-underworld-gunmen-test-illegal-weaponry.html
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 February 2018 7:30:55 AM
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//There is evidence that some road signs are shot, or otherwise damaged, by the antis to bring discredit on shooters; this becomes evident just before elections.//

Well, I have to say it's one of the more entertaining conspiracy theories I've heard. But I think your Occam's razor might have gone blunt if you consider it to be a better hypothesis than the much simpler and more obvious answer: that it was done by some pissed-up bogans.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 19 February 2018 8:09:11 AM
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Paul,

(Quote)Just to add, note the total lack of safety as these hillbillies run around shooting, carrying loaded guns around other people, loaded guns unattended, a rapid caress attitude while shooting, people standing close to shooters, unsafe metal targets. I am surprised no one has been killed yet by a stray bullet.(unquote)

What a load of unmitigated ignorance, Western Action shoots are run with the same adherence to safety procedures as are other ranges.

Quote and unquote in the above are used because the 'system' suddenly took offence at the use of quotation marks.

Toni,

Hardly historical re-enactment, as I said earlier, those who lived in the Old West would have stained their britches in uncontrollable mirth could they but see the Hollywood oriented practitioners of Western Action, the dress and particularly the pistol holsters are, in many cases, but grotesque imaginings of the then real world.
But as they are having fun, in a very safe way and not hurting anybody then good luck to them.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 February 2018 8:24:36 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

Given that pretty well 100% of households would have at least one occupant with a drivers licence and given the fact that earning that licence in this country is far more onerous than a shooters licence the only thing that would prevent the arming of 100% of the nation's household is the trustworthiness factor.

Can we assume that probably less than 5% drivers would have a conviction reflecting on their own trustworthiness. This would leave 95% of our homes weaponised with the primary role of that weapon (your stance) to protect from intruders.

Are you really going to sit there and tell me the vision you have for my country would not see a dramatic increase in gun deaths whether by suicide, accident, or on the rare occasion killing an intruder?

You sir are a dangerous ideologue and should really have a good hard look at yourself.

As to signs being shot to discredit shooters, what a lot of twaddle. Grow up mate.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 19 February 2018 9:44:05 AM
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Toni,

"Well, I have to say it's one of the more entertaining conspiracy theories I've heard. But I think your Occam's razor might have gone blunt if you consider it to be a better hypothesis than the much simpler and more obvious answer: that it was done by some pissed-up bogans"

I have examined the road signs that I mentioned and I'm well versed in forensic ballistics, and I hardly think that anyone would bash selected signs with a ball pein hammer for fun.
You might ask how I knew that it was a hammer, well hammers acquire distinguishing marks in the normal course of their use and such marks are transferred to softer metal when it is struck (except by planishing hammers and similar, which are kept polished and protected by their users).

There was on the Putty Rd and the Gwydir Highway a total lack of holes from .22 rimfire rifles, which use the very cheapest of ammo.

One would also wonder why the smaller signs, such as speed signs, were not used as targets on the Gwydir?

One supposition is that they are harder and thus not able to be dented by the pein as realistically as the larger, less rigid signs.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 February 2018 9:57:07 AM
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Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Regrettably as with any pastime, you get your irresponsible people participating. You say you camp and hike on designated tracks in Victorian State Forests, and from what you say, it's also lawful to discharge F/A's in that same State Forest, where the hiking and camping takes place?

I would've thought having both activities together in the same State Forest might pose a recipe for an accident given the power of some centre fires and their ability to travel. I must admit I'm pretty much out of touch with the shooting fraternity, but generally the two pastimes don't make reasonable contented bed fellows, despite what's said to the contrary. Still what would I know?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 19 February 2018 9:57:43 AM
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See George Christensen's bit of 'Dirty Harry' fun. The Greens again demonstrate their sour-puss lack of humour with coppers' nark, di Natale, dobbing him in to the Federal Police – as if they would not have already know about it – and Sarah Two-names wetting herself. A bloke can't have a joke any more without being nagged by the 8% Green drama queens. Ban political donations from any person or group by all means, but just ban the Greens altogether.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 19 February 2018 11:06:00 AM
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Dear o sung wu,

Yes it is a worry. I have a friend who doesn't feel like taking his kids in there any more because it feels unsafe and I don't blame him. State forests in Victoria are great for families who want to camp with their dog/s as they are not allowed in National Parks. The shooters generally kept to their game reserves or private properties. They have pushed for the 'right' to shoot in these areas and the gun lobby has been very effective in enabling this. We are now seeing the consequences.

One of the best walks at Mt Cole is the Beeripmo Walk. This is the marker which is within 100 mts of the Ditchfields Camp site where we usually stay. Look pretty low calibre but is still a worry.
http://imgur.com/mGwQTgq

What is likely to happen is families will desert these spots and what had been enjoyed by many people will be left to the gun toting hoons, especially with with no one to pull them up. It is not a pretty future. It is a very selfish attitude.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 19 February 2018 12:49:13 PM
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Steele,

The calibre of the rifle that shot the holes in the top sign is probably between .270" and .32" or so as the usual screws used to hold such signs have a head diametre of .312".

The holes in the lower sign appear smaller so probably a .243" rifle

.270" and .243" are the minimum legal calibres for hunting deer in Victoria.
(the above is just a small example of the theoretical application of forensic ballistics)
http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/deer/hunting-methods

There is no such thing as a low calibre rifle, (except the Zimmerstutzen), even the lowly .22 rimfire can kill at 1,000 ++ metres.

One would think that hunting areas and camping areas would be segregated.
Only selfish people would go camping with dogs in a State Forrest, have they no regard for native wildlife?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 February 2018 2:21:19 PM
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Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Thank you for the image of that sign: either shot by 12g slugs; alternatively a large centre fire ctg. This is the sort of vandalism that brings 'ALL' shooters into disrepute, notwithstanding it's the actions of a few. Similarly, shooting at young trees to demonstrate their superior 'marksmanship'! Friggin' idiots.

My walking days are long over. However I'd not feel comfortable if I were hiking, hearing the sounds of ordnance, clipping their way through the tree line. Hell, I've heard enough of those sounds, when in the military for goodness sake. I understand this is unlikely to occur in a Victorian State Forest, though you never know do you? I personally would never feel particularly comfortable in an area where shooters were participating in their sport. The chance of receiving a survivable wound from a modern centre fire round anywhere, is not that good.

For that reason, all State Property should be declared as either; suitable for hunting 'ONLY':- Or a strict prohibition of hunting altogether. This may avoid any serious accidents in the future. As I've said, I'm pretty well out of touch with the shooting fraternity, thus stand to be corrected.
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 19 February 2018 2:27:10 PM
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Guns or no guns, the legal structure is designed to criminalise self-defence. An old lady I once knew who lived alone kept a baseball bat by her bed in case of any intruder, and a friendly cop she knew advised her that she should never disclose that she had the bat for self-defence as she could end up being prosecuted for keeping a weapon to hit an intruder, as that was illegal.

As for guns, it was good to see that people fed up with the latest killing spree in Florida were organising to "out" any pollies or businesses who accepted funds from the NRA and to advertise the list on the Internet. At the same time it was also encouraging to see that Remington had gone bankrupt.

A website in Australia to "out" recipients of Yank NRA funds would be useful - for example I always use preferential voting to put gun freaks like the Fishers and Shooters Party or Senator Leyonhjelm last, but some gun freaks within and outside the Tweedledum-Tweedledee parties hide their support for backsliding from the post-Port Arthur Howard gun controls.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Monday, 19 February 2018 3:15:35 PM
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The Greens alongside their antifa mates and Soros complaining about violence. Please tell me its a joke.
Posted by runner, Monday, 19 February 2018 3:36:45 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

Unfortunately it will probably just happen naturally. There are around 500 game reserves across Victoria but not enough for the shooting fraternity. They have aggressively moved into State forests which have traditionally been enjoyed people for camping and experiencing nature. More areas are being ceded to them with another 6 provisionally opened up this year in SW Victoria alone.

Our National Parks are being impacted too. I have a relation who works in Parks Victoria and it seems one of the huge issues they have is people releasing pigs into the National Parks and then hunting them with GPS dogs and knives. There are almost weekly threats made on Park officers for trying to enforce the law. I know people who admit to doing it and aggressively assert they should be allowed to do so legally. pig populations within the Parks are increasing and now shooters are pushing to be allowed in to 'help solve the problem'.

Dear Is Mise,

So no comment on the signs being shot up, just a few remarks about hole sizes? Dive for the minutia to avoid facing the real issue.

And what a pathetic comment about people taking dogs into State Forests. My hound is incredibly well trained otherwise I wouldn't take her in there.

In 2012 shooters managed to get the laws around hunting dogs reworked. These laws had restricted deer hunting dogs to three apparently appropriate breeds; blood hound, beagle and harrier.

“In response to hunters' requests to use companion dogs, some other dog breeds have been approved for hunting all game deer species,”

Keep an eye out for someone's Fox Terrier or Jack Russel sprinting past you on your next nature walk in a state forest.

So mate, I'm not sure how much more we need to reinforce just how much of a hypocrite you are but let's try it on for size.

Do you stand by your comment that “Only selfish people would go camping with dogs in a State Forrest, have they no regard for native wildlife?”

Are these shooters selfish or not?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 19 February 2018 4:04:38 PM
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Hi (again) STEELEREDUX...

Something I have noticed from my days in licensing; there seems to be a steady deterioration in the psychological fitness or otherwise, of some applicants, especially those few seeking to obtain a review of their F/A licences whenever they've been issued with a 'show cause' notice objecting to a renewal?

Every applicant has a right in law to challenge decisions made by licensing police by appealing to a Magistrate, whenever they're unhappy with any conditions made thereon, or any variations of their licence.

I've had quite a few incidences when I've been acting I/C, when applicants have come into our section, and made all these demands to see me! They've become so enraged with our decisions, they've almost lent across the counter and grabbed someone, by the collar? Of course this does little to help them sort out the mess, that's now become the remnants of their licence application!

Best to keep the cops on-side and they'll always go to bat for you, if it's simply a strict definition or similar, thats easily remedied by the Magistrate with the stroke of a pen. To launch into some tirade simply demonstrates to the police and/or the Court, there's something a little 'cockeyed' with the applicant, thus his psychological fitness to possess a valid F/A's Licence is brought right into question?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 19 February 2018 4:44:33 PM
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Steele,

I already answered you about people who shoot signs and, yes, I do consider that people who take their dogs camping with them are selfish.
I also object to hunting with dogs except on private property when using them to point and retrieve.
Out west in pig country it's a bit different as the pigs have just about eradicated the smaller native animals.

I mentioned the sizes of the bullet holes and drew your attention to the relevant Vic restrictions on calibres so that you might possibly learn that bullet holes in signs do not represent 'low calibre' guns but in the case that you cited, they probably represent the legal minimum of quite high powered rifles; rifles with a killing range of at least 3.5 to 4.5 kms.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 February 2018 5:12:00 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

I have been happy to generally refrain from politics in our discussions but I can't resist.

If you had some fat yob applying for a gun licence and you happened to be alerted to let's say a facebook page where he was waving a weapon around talking about doing a 'Dirty Harry' on a certain section of the population, would that impact your assessment of his suitability to responsibly hold a firearm licence, particularly for a pistol?

Of course feel free to reserve your opinion as I am content to leave it as a rhetorical question.

Dear Is Mise,

I'm probably more interested in the 'low calibre' of shooters rather than their weapon. A .22 can take a life even from a distance. I grew up owning guns and are pretty comfortable still around them. I will say though starting that walk after seeing the sign and hearing some distant shots had me pretty uneasy. It is all Mountain ash forest with well over head high ferns covering much of it. You really can't see much past 10 yards up or down the track. I would probably have baulked taking kids on the walk. If I hadn't seen the sign full of holes then I probably would have been fine but it was hard evidence that irresponsible shooters had been in the area and for all I knew were the source of the firing I could hear. People shouldn't have to be making these kinds of decisions on a camping holiday in this country.

I'm wondering how long it will be before shooters try and claim exclusivity of areas during the hunting season so as to 'protect others like bushwalkers' from harm? They will state that because the season goes for half the year they are excluded of the other half anyway therefore they should have exclusivity for 'their' six months.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 19 February 2018 5:49:22 PM
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//Only selfish people would go camping with dogs in a State Forrest, have they no regard for native wildlife?//

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybNI0KB1bg

Still, I think it's touching that Is Mise is so concerned about the threat posed to wildlife by irresponsible dog owners. It gives hope that he might one day show some concern about the threat posed to humans by irresponsible gun owners.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 19 February 2018 7:10:05 PM
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"A website in Australia to "out" recipients of Yank NRA funds would be useful"

It would be of no use what-so-ever as there are no such funds, despite desperate Greens claims to the contrary; the Greens have never been able to back up their allegations as they have no substance at all (both the claims and the Greens).
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 February 2018 7:17:36 PM
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Issy, how is NSW's leading gunnie and wombat killer Tony Azzie going?

Fairfax Media has obtained several confronting photos of Mr Azzi with dead animals. In one photo, he and his sales manager Nick Karagiannis, both armed with rifles, are posing over the carcass of a wombat. Another photo, shows a wombat bleeding profusely from a gunshot wound to the stomach.

Mr Azzi confirmed to Fairfax Media via email that he had "shot and killed wildlife on (his) country property".
He listed kangaroos, as animals he had shot.

"I do not shoot animals for fun and when killing them it will be done in a very human [sic] manner. I am an excellent marksman," he said.

"I am a firearm holder and I keep two firearms at the farm.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 February 2018 7:41:02 PM
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Hi there STEELEREDUX...

If I were to consider an applicant based exactly on the scenario you've provided; without doubt he'd be refused any sort of F/A licence. I understand you're referring to a Liberal Back Bencher (I think) who was seen waving a gun about threatening 'cowardly members' of the 'Green Party'. A ridiculous even juvenile thing to do, given he's an elected member of Federal Parliament?

It goes a long way to expose the mentality of some Politicians, and their fitness to hold any sort of public office of leadership in the Parliament? We all get hot under the collar, but to illustrate one's distain or displeasure at one thing or another, by the needless use of a F/A under any circumstances,as we've all seen recently - well?

Considering just a few short days ago, ordinary men, women and children were mercilessly cut down, by some utter jackass in Florida, who just happened to get his hands on an assault rifle of some sort? Well there's nobody anywhere, who can legitimately justify the possession of a F/A under these circumstances. RIP these innocent souls.
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 19 February 2018 8:27:36 PM
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Issy, given that you are happy for lunatic wannabe cowboys to hold a gun licence, and you support for that total f'wit George Christensen, who presented a photograph of himself holding a gun with a caption “DO YOU FEEL LUCKY, GREENIE PUNKS?". This clearly show that Christensen intention is either to attempt to kill people, or have others attempt to do so. Since the publication of this utter rubbish by the grub, Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young has received a number of death threats. On another thread you said you support Christensen.

Do you still support that mongrel?
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 4:29:15 AM
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Paul,

I didn't say that I supported Christensen, I said that he was a mug but preferable to Abdel-Magied, so get your facts straight.

Where have I said that I am " ... happy for lunatic wannabe cowboys to hold a gun licence,"?

If you are referring to the Western Action discipline then you are denigrating law abiding, hard working fellow Australians who have been recognized by the State, via the Commissioner of Police, as members of the community who enjoy the trust of said authorities.

Were you knocked back for a Firearms Licence?

As o sung wu said, not everyone comes up to the mark.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 7:32:16 AM
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The "lunatic wannabe cowboys" don't need a licence to own a gun; they are never going to apply for a licence; they can get firearms from the underworld. But the 8% Greens gutlessly go for the larger than life public figures and harmless buffoons. Comrade di Nasty wets his panties as he rushes to 'report' George to the AFP, like the nasty little school boy and coppers' nark that he is. It is understood that the AFP, who had actually seen the incident for themselves, politely told di Nasty to bugger off, as they had better things to do - possibly checking to see if di Nasty is still ripping off his domestic help.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 8:27:06 AM
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'morning to you IS MISE...

To clear up a point - from a licensing perspective, an applicant who wishes to join a well run club/organisation like the S/A, Western Action Shooters Club. Is more preferable, than an applicant who cites his reason is to hunt, with the same category of weapon. The chances of a S/A Handgun Lic. being approved, on 'hunting grounds alone', would in my experience, be quite unusual, as you'd be aware.

An example, a Sgt. colleague of mine, a keen handgun shooter and well known for his H/G expertise, was denied a licence to hunt/ eradicate feral Pigs on a large property near Moree in NSW. He presently shot 'steel' with his currently licensed S&W mod 29 in .44mag. He asked that the scope of his .44mag licence, be extended to that of hunting. And as I said, it was denied on appeal? Licensing Police must dance to the very same tune, of the State's Legislator's just like anyone else, irrespective of what private and well founded opinions they themselves might hold?

As you well know IS MISE when it comes to 'guns' post 'Port Arthur'; many of our political leaders tend to break out in a 'cold sweat'; all the while that fat maggot Martin BRYANT, who is still very much securely ensconced in Risdon Prison, continues to gorge himself with chocolate, from whoever and wherever he gets it from? His personal hygiene is almost non-existent, only undertaken when the Warder's order that he's mandatorily washed and scrubbed, by other prisoners, who gain some small privileges for cleaning this bloke up.

He's so thoroughly debauched, he's utterly vilified in Gaol, both hated and loathed in equal measure by all those serving time around him. He's not fit to breathe the same air, such is his levels of depravity, 'even while he's been in gaol', according to other inmates in the Risdon Prison. Don't be too surprised if you hear he's dead. Albeit he's made several attempts at suicide by his own hand. All he does is sleep and eat (chocolate) no work, nor exercise.
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 10:32:00 AM
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Ironic the antifa mob made up of Greens run off to the police over George's stunt. Usually it is the feral Greens who spit, bite and despise the police.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 10:43:28 AM
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Morning to you too, o sung wu,

Yes, getting a licence to hunt with a handgun is virtually impossible, physical impairment might be the only reasonable excuse.

Way back in my days of "Possess, Use and Carry" I used to hunt rabbits and foxes on horseback in the mountains around Hill End, and to be able to use a pistol was very convenient as it left one hand for the horse, just in case!!

I'm surprised that Bryant has lasted so long.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 10:55:22 AM
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//all the while that fat maggot Martin BRYANT, who is still very much securely ensconced in Risdon Prison, continues to gorge himself with chocolate, from whoever and wherever he gets it from? His personal hygiene is almost non-existent, only undertaken when the Warder's order that he's mandatorily washed and scrubbed, by other prisoners, who gain some small privileges for cleaning this bloke up.//

Bryant is autistic and has an I.Q. of 66 - a whole 6 points more than an Alsatian dog. There are legitimate questions as to his capacity to carry out the Port Arthur massacre.

However there can be no question as to the lethality of the guns used in the massacre.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 11:21:22 AM
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Dear o sung wu,

Thank you for your considered opinion on the matter.

I was indeed alluding to the member of parliament George Christensen.

Here in Victoria intimidation with a firearm is taken pretty seriously. I would suggest that his actions would have been enough to have his firearm licence reviewed and probably revoked.

To assert there was nothing intimidatory about his actions as some are doing is ludicrous.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 11:25:44 AM
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G'day to you TONI LAVIS...

I have no doubt Martin BRYANT has a suite of psychological complications sufficient enough for the entire RANZCP to hold their annual conference. Actually I don't mean to be trite, there's much, much more to this fellow than was ever made available for public consumption - according to an ex detective colleague of mine, who transferred to TASPOL, CIB prior to Port Arthur. And I offer no particular claim to be across anything other than that, which had been released to the public domain.

What I can in fact attest to Toni, is his subsequent conduct since his incarceration in Risdon. Beginning with initially, several assaults upon, much younger and weaker inmates. Until his eventual removal to a non-associates section of the prison, for 'his' own; and other's, protection! Talk about a misfit?
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 12:57:18 PM
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Issy, I hit a nerve with you, re; F'wit Christensen. I accept you do not support his bloody ridiculous pic and caption, he did the gunnie cause no favours with that pathetic nonsense. But he is a typical gunnie supporter.

People who play dress ups, and carry on with a silly pretence, I see them as some kind of screwballs.
You said it was completely safe, with the rapid action and numbers of people in close proximity, the safety aspect seems to play second fiddle to the fun carry on nonsense.

Were you (Paul1405) knocked back for a Firearms Licence? No, and it is most unlikely that will ever be, knocked back.

It had to happen. The children of America are saying enough is enough. While adults have been paralyzed into taking no action over the mass killings of the innocent, the children have taken the initiative in demanding tougher gun laws. Despite the efforts of the gun lobby, and their red neck supporters, children are making their voices heard, they are sick of the mass killings, and not seeing anything done to change the situation. We must ensure the gun lobby in Australia and their far right backers in the SSAA do not influence the politicians to such a degree that they lead us down the American path of mass killings.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 8:30:49 PM
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Paul,

You are making stupid assumptions nased on your lack of knowledge,

"People who play dress ups, and carry on with a silly pretence, I see them as some kind of screwballs.
You said it was completely safe, with the rapid action and numbers of people in close proximity, the safety aspect seems to play second fiddle to the fun carry on nonsense."

I've been to Western Action shoots, I'm a qualified Range Officer (and have been for years, since my early twenties), and I see their practices as being very safe.
Not only safe but safer than swimming, cycling, horse riding etc.

What have you got against people dressing up and pretending to be in another place and time?
http://www.alhf.org.au/mem_grps.html

The Australian Living History Federation provides a lot of fun for a lot of people, shame on you for knocking them.

How do you feel about Shakespearean theatre, or Aboriginal Australians dressing up?

See:http://www.indigenousaustralia.info/culture/corroborees-a-ceremonies.html

Just to stay on topic,

Here's a bloke who is so irate over the Florida shootings that he handed his semi=auto rifle in to police for destruction.

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/i-could-have-easily-sold-this-rifle-but-no-person-needs-this/news-story/b1eec24d94af4db3b82d4d52c8c4394e
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 9:13:06 PM
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The children can say enough is enough until they are blue in the face; nothing will change. In the first two years of his first term, Obama had 60% of the vote in Congress and he did nothing about gun laws. If an ultra-Left Democrat didn't want to do anything, there is no way any American president will do anything. It's all about votes.

It is not the gun lobby or a bunch of loonies who want guns; it is your average American voter who doesn't want changes to gun laws. It is a cultural thing, enshrined in law. Unlike Australians, Americans don't take kindly to having their rights taken off them. They don't like seat belts. They would laugh themselves silly if their government tried to make them wear helmets to ride a bike. So, any pious talk about the Yanks accepting the draconian Howard type gun laws is absolute bollocks.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 20 February 2018 9:33:21 PM
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Issy, I have no problem with fellas who want to dress up in tights, and prance around on stage reciting; "My horse, my horse, my kingdom for a horse!" rather harmless. Its these armed delusional nutters I am concerned with. One day the schizophrenic Wichita Willie, Saloon Girl Annie and Dead Eye Dick might load themselves into a stage coach, and head for Dodge City, (my burb), and on arrival confuse me with the wanted 'dead or alive', the notorious outlaw Pecos Pete! You know the rest, the gunfight at the O.K. Corral ensues, and I having no gun, due to the fact the local sheriff knocked me back, the sheriff not allowing crazy people to have a gun, and I end up in Boot Hill. Would you go alone with that?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 4:38:14 AM
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Paul,

" Would you go alone with that?"

Hardly, thousands would rejoice!!
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 7:27:44 AM
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As at 2015 there were 357 million guns for a population of 310 million in America. Deaths by gun were 0.0043403%, and 80% of those deaths resulted from criminal activity - not nutter shootings.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 9:15:56 AM
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Hitler confiscated firearms. By doing so he had taken away a bulwark against his secret police hauling dissidents off in the middle of the night.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 10:06:59 AM
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ttbn,

You're on dubious ground there, in general Hitler's Germany had less restrictive laws than the Weimar Republic, although his laws did target some specific groups.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 11:51:40 AM
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Is Mise,

You are always asking others for proof of what the say. Where is your proof?
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 1:01:11 PM
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ttbn,

Try Sopes,
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/disarm.asp
then if that's not enough just Google Hitler's gun laws.

There's a mess of stuff on Google.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 4:31:29 PM
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Look we have a clever dick! This bloke can do maths to the seventh decimal place "Deaths by gun were 0.0043403%", and he even knows where to put the percent symbol, yes a very clever dick indeed.

In typical selfish gunnie fashion the deaths of innocent children at the hands of a fellow gunnie, and I put them all in the same category, is reduced to a mere statistic, in their view insignificant, negligible, of little consequence! ttbn, try telling that one to the families of those children who were slaughtered by another crazed gunnie. Wake up fool!
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 22 February 2018 3:44:53 AM
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Paul,

He was putting it in perspective, and that is permissible.

Not like the Greens waiting for a tragedy and then rushing in to score political points without regard for the grieving families.

Funny that the Greens and other antis had a word to say about the biggest mass killing in a school in recent history nor about the second worst.
They didn't call for stricter gun laws in the countries concerned.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 22 February 2018 8:43:56 AM
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Issy, fiddling with numbers like this to put it into so called "perspective" is what I would term an insensitive cop out. You might think it is permissible, I don't agree. If every gunnie in Australia turned his gun on himself, what percentage of the population would we loose, not much, and we could keep it quite out of respect for the dead. Agree?

In typical gunnie fashion, when one of their deranged members goes off, and a mass killing occurs, other gunnies like Issy want it hushed up, not mentioned, out of respect for the dead! What a joke.

Hitlers gun laws couldn't have been too tough, the bloke shot himself dead
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 22 February 2018 10:15:12 AM
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Wow. Use facts and you are a 'fool' according to the virtue signalling Greens. The families of the dead kids are unlikely to have given a damn before it happened to THEIR kids. Humans are like that: not perfect, unlike the Greens' impression of themselves. Did the grieving woman screaming at Trump via the TV camera do the same after all the other shootings? Nope! Whatever laws the Americans come up with, they have to be based on reality and fact, not on emotional, Left wing nonsense politics. We all wish these things didn't happen; but the fact is - very few people, even in America, die by the gun.

Is Mise,

I note the lack original documents in your reference, so we can't be sure one way or the other.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 22 February 2018 11:01:23 AM
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Hey, Donald Trump has a solution to school gun massacres.

More guns!

Dinkum!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-22/donald-trump-proposes-arming-teachers-to-stop-school-shootings/9473282

Yanks! And their deadly offshoots infest Australia.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Thursday, 22 February 2018 11:13:28 AM
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ttbn,

"Claim: “Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.”

This is misleading. Jews were prohibited from owning guns and disarmed. Overall, however, gun control laws passed by the Nazis in 1938 actually loosened firearms restrictions that had been in force since the end of World War I.

Gun ownership was banned outright for all German citizens in 1919. A 1928 revision of the law lifted the ban, while still requiring individuals to obtain permits to own, sell, carry, or manufacture firearms. According to Stephen Halbrook, author of Gun Control in the Third Reich: Disarming the Jews and ‘Enemies of the State’ (Independence Institute, 2013), the Nazis used the extant law when they came to power in 1933 to revoke the permits of communists, Jews, and other “undesirables,” and disarm them. The first gun law actually enacted under Nazi rule, the German Weapons Act of 1938, eased some of the permit requirements (those on rifles and ammunition, though not on handguns), and lowered the legal age for the possession of firearms, but also forbade Jews, specifically, from manufacturing or selling arms.

The Regulations Against Jews’ Possession of Weapons, enacted later that year, prohibited Jews from possessing or carrying any kind of weapon at all.

So, while the Nazis ultimately favored loosening gun restrictions on the German population as a whole, the disarmament of Jews and other targeted minority populations was an essential feature of Hitler’s genocidal program, which included the murder of six million Jews (and millions of others deemed unworthy to live under the Third Reich) between 1938 and the end of World War II. "
:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/gunhistory.asp

Sorry I couldn't find the original German laws.

Paul,

No one wants to hush anything up, unlike the Greens we don't rush in for a dubious political point or two.

Why didn't you have anything to say about the worst school shootings to date?
I note that Sarah "Sea Patrol" and the boss man didn't mention them either.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 22 February 2018 11:31:36 AM
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One day people might become smart enough to see the massacres in schools are far more to do with the total breakdown of morals and structure caused by putrid secularism. The ones proteting the loudest sre usually the champions of the real cause.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 22 February 2018 11:55:46 AM
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"The Regulations Against Jews’ Possession of Weapons, enacted later that year, prohibited Jews from possessing or carrying any kind of weapon at all."

Now just note that Australia believes in doing the same, except that it does not discriminate.

Emperor,

Trump is talking sense, teachers are there, on the spot, and on the spot first responders need to be armed against an attacker(s).

What provisions are there in Australian schools if the school is attacked?
Apart from ringing '000'.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 22 February 2018 11:57:18 AM
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Dear runner,

The US has the highest number of Christians in the entire world. Look how that is going for them. These mass shooters are overwhelmingly white and from christian backgrounds. What do you think that tells us?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 22 February 2018 12:20:53 PM
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As usual you distort things Steelie. The US has led the marxist route with dumbed down academia and secular dogma. These shootings were unheard of when much of America embraced Christian values. The feminist/marxist have destroyed America along with anywhere else their filfthy selfish and perverted ideologies have taken hold.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 22 February 2018 1:42:27 PM
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Nothing and Ireland is 86% Christian and, in the context of your question, nothing either.

However, Iran is 99% Muslim. now according to your reasoning; what does that tell us?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 22 February 2018 1:51:09 PM
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//The US has led the marxist route//

XD

I think there's a few marxists who'd disagree with you there, runner. Also anybody familiar with the history of 20th century.

//These shootings were unheard of when much of America embraced Christian values.//

They do, runner. About 80% of them are Christian.

//One day people might become smart enough to see the massacres in schools are far more to do with the total breakdown of morals and structure caused by putrid secularism.//

How come the French aren't running around shooting schoolkids willy-nilly then?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 22 February 2018 2:00:05 PM
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' How come the French aren't running around shooting schoolkids willy-nilly then?' come on Toni even you are smart enough to see that France's hatred of Christ and anything Christian has greatly contributed to jihad being common place in France.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 22 February 2018 3:35:14 PM
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Dear runner,

Given 9/11 surpassed anything that has occurred in France by an order of magnitiude then by your own reasoning;

The US's love of Christ and anything Christian has greatly contributed to the destruction of the twin towers. Can't have it both ways mate.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 22 February 2018 3:45:02 PM
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Emperor,

Where are you, I thought that by now you would be shewing Trump up and providing a solution to school shootings.

Paul,

Have you found out yet why the Greens ignore school shootings etc., in other parts of the world and only concentrate on the US?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 23 February 2018 10:39:24 AM
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I've just read the ABC's Citation furnished by EMPEROR JULIAN. Described and shown therein is a small jotter pad, being held and used as an 'aide memoir' by President TRUMP. And he cops heaps of derision and abuse over it, for not being 'genuine' or something!

Let me assure you, whenever you have to face the media or some other authority you're very nervous, knowing you'll probably get kicked to death for the wrong word, or look, or your body language, or whatever.

It's sensible and appropriate that you jot down salient points in order you don't forget - in some circumstance you're even allowed to refer to your official Note Book or Diary, in Court if your memory is exhausted.

Why then do these journalist boofheads climb all over him, for doing something which is advised and perfectly in order! Believe me I'm no Trump supporter, so I couldn't care, whether it's a 'lefty' Democrat, or a 'far-right' Republican who employs this process; it's sensible and appropriate. Journalists; you would've feed 'em.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 23 February 2018 11:10:07 AM
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A response to the Yank NRA's dilemma canvassed by its Australian chapter:

Trump could start the solution to the Yank killing problem by subjecting repeal of the slave owners' Second Amendment to a nationwide referendum, one vote one value.

Re the Greens (who are of scant interest to me as they are an antidemocratic party), maybe they do not focus on school gun massacres in the civilised world because there aren't any.

Other gun massacres are a security threat posed by Moslems and the solution to that problem in Australia is a ban on Moslem immigration and a root and branch repudiation of religion starting with the Opus Dei rump in the LNP Government party room.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Friday, 23 February 2018 11:27:43 AM
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School or any other shootings by deranged idiots are dreadful, & very hard to prevent.

Are they any worse than 276 girls kidnaped by Muslim rebels in Nigeria?

We must be prepared to fight this becoming the norm in Oz. Not locking up the deranged until it is too late, & too gentle sentencing of gang members will have us there sooner than most believe.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 23 February 2018 1:30:07 PM
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Emperor,

"Trump could start the solution to the Yank killing problem by subjecting repeal of the slave owners' Second Amendment to a nationwide referendum, one vote one value."

That's kinda long term, what's needed is a quick solution and Trump has offered one, can you do better?

"Re the Greens (who are of scant interest to me as they are an antidemocratic party), maybe they do not focus on school gun massacres in the civilised world because there aren't any."

Your sentiments on the Greens do you credit but one could hardly call China, an uncivilized country and it's had its share of school massacres.
The Greens only focus on the US and a school massacre is to be decried wherever it takes place.

Talking of climbing on the bandwagon, what has Opus Dei got to do with the subject?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 23 February 2018 6:34:09 PM
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Trumps answer to the horrendous problem of gun violence in American schools is to have even more guns in schools. The jerk wants to arm teachers now, presumably he would also want to arm school janitors, gardeners, cleaners, bus drivers and tuck shop ladies as well. The bloke is a complete tosser!
The only way for the Americans to stop this type of mass slaughter is to get guns out of the community by introducing tougher gun laws, not adding more guns to society. I can see it now, some overbearing teacher growls "right! who hasn't done their homework!" as he servey's the classroom at the point of his M16. What a lovely society it would be.

Next thing you know, the gunnies here will be calling for Wichita Willy and Six Gun Annie to be let off the leach to protect our schools from other gun loonies!
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 23 February 2018 8:37:45 PM
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Follow the dots:

# Pubic massacres

# Guns

# Perp lunacy

# Perp religion (form of lunacy)

# Theocracy

# Islam

# Other theocracy

# Opus Dei theocratic stranglehold on government

# Oppose theocratic influence on government

# Oppose gun availability which makes lunacy lethal

Inter-related
Posted by EmperorJulian, Friday, 23 February 2018 10:27:52 PM
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So Paul and the Emperor cannot suggest a quick solution to the problem.

Long on rhetoric but short on ideas; or do they think that a teacher's best defence is a cell phone (mobile) and a quick call to 999 (000)?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 February 2018 10:10:54 AM
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"European countries such as Belgium, France and the Netherlands have even stricter gun control laws than Australia does, but their mass public shooting rates are at least as high as those in the United States."

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/23/us-gun-control-advocates-exaggerate-benefits-australias-gun-restrictions.html

Is Lott wrong?
Are Belgium, France and the Netherlands not part of the civilized world?

These and other questions will be answered shortly by Paul and the Emperor.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 February 2018 1:04:23 PM
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Nah Issy, try 911.

Issy, your attempts to convince us that having every lunatic in the community running around with a fully loaded automatic weapon and thousands of rounds of ammunition, and it is as safe as houses, is not working.
We know who the lunatic fringe in Australia is, its the members of SSAA. I bet your mates from the 'wild west shoot em' up show' are all fully paid up.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 February 2018 4:01:52 PM
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Paul,

Frustrating, is it not, to be faced with a question to which you know the answer but to be not game enough to give it.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 February 2018 4:57:37 PM
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//Is Lott wrong?//

Whatever, Is Mise. If you can't see that there's a problem in the US, at the end of the day I don't think anybody cares that much.

But if you think that Australian voting public are going to sit back and let weirdos lead us down the American path, I think you're on a hiding to nothing. We're all far too accustomed to not being shot at, not being woken at night by the sounds of gunshots followed by screaming sirens, not having to worry about guns in our day-to-day lives unless we fall in with a really bad crowd (which is our own silly fault).

I've always been fond of the advice of the great Australian band TISM: "Australia, don't become America."
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 24 February 2018 6:57:07 PM
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Toni,

I can see that there is a problem but it is a diminishing problem.

Some around here think that they have a solution but their solutions are long term, what's needed to fix the school massacre problem short term?

Any suggestions?

There are already schools in Australia that have Security Guards and crash proof fences but these are private measures; what are Australian Governments doing about protecting school children?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 February 2018 7:55:52 PM
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Any suggestions? YES! follow Australia's lead. Tough gun laws and licences, ban the automatics/semi automatics. Buy back and surrender initiatives. Get guns out of the community only for those with a genuine reason.
Arming unskilled untrained people like teachers will result in more deaths, not less.

Australia is no where near perfect, we still have guns in the hands of crazies like the wild west shot em' up mob, and the membership of the SSAA. But we are working on it.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 February 2018 8:42:44 PM
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//Any suggestions?//

Prevention rather than cure.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 25 February 2018 4:11:13 AM
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If Issy had his way every senile old fool in the country would be armed and dangerous.
For you Issy, I would have your riding shotgun on the 'Mr Whippy' van. I can just picture it now, Mr Whippy and Issy roaring down the street, 'Green Sleeves' playing full blast. Issy firing away indiscriminately out the passengers window at the "bad guys"

To the sounds of a burst of machine gun fire!

Mr Whippy; "Issy me thinks that was a granny you just hit."
Issy; "No worries a bit of collateral damage, no more snow cones for her!" "Look a fella walking a dog at 2 o'clock, highly suspicious...locked on target." Fire!
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 February 2018 5:08:49 AM
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Keep it up, Paul et al.

You all know that Trump is right, but you don't have the guts to admit it.

So what's your short term solution?

Haven't got any?

As I said, long on rhetoric but short on practical solutions.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 February 2018 8:30:18 AM
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//You all know that Trump is right, but you don't have the guts to admit it.//

XD

//So what's your short term solution?//

Do you have shares in arms manufacturers or something, Is Mise?

We don't have a problem with school shootings in Australia. Arming our teachers is a solution to a problem that only exists in your paranoid, fevered imagination. I cannot understand how any sane person could seriously argue that arming teachers is a good idea unless they personally stood to benefit from it.

In fact, that particular suggestion is so far out of the ball park that it's impossible to take seriously. Your last couple of posts have come across more as satire than sincerely held views, and in accordance with Poe's Law that is how I am choosing to interpret them: a fairly simplistic and un-subtle parody of some of the more deranged gun nuts out there.

If you want to be taken seriously, I recommend not mooting arguments which are so comically absurd.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 25 February 2018 10:34:54 AM
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One of the gun freaks' stratagems for keeping the gun menace in place is to ridicule long term solutions and to claim there are only quick solutions or no solutions.

For a quick solution, the Yanks could try the John Howard solution which worked a treat in Australia and is so far holding despite the treasonable Yank-linked campaign to unravel it and drag Australia back under the gun.

The Yank process is complicated by the slave owners' Second Amendment but the obvious long term solution would be to repeal it. A more drastic but very attractive solution would be to kick the Reb states out of the USA and their operatives out of the Pentagon. Their current lunatic President wouldn't be up to the job.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Sunday, 25 February 2018 11:05:12 AM
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So no short term solutions forthcoming?

If someone enters a school and starts to fire, how can he be stopped?

Any ideas?

There are any amount of long term solutions, but how can an active shooter be stopped?

Don't strain your brains.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 February 2018 11:23:39 AM
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Issy, why wont you take my suggestion of a mobile armed militia of pensioners in 'Mr Whippy' vans seriously? At last count there were over 10,000 ideal assorted ice cream vans in Australia. There are thousands of geriatric pensioners ready to answer the call, to take up arms in the name of truth, justice and the American way! It brings a tear to my eye.

To think I have a better instant solution to the daily mass killings in Aussie, than both you and The Donald, and you wont take me seriously. I am dis-custard!

Here is your very own armed, personnel vehicle ready to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vMjddmK0w
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 February 2018 11:43:56 AM
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Got you by the short and curlies, Paul.

You're the one who brought up the shooting in Miami, don't try so desperately to change the goal posts.

How would you recommend stopping a shooter in a US school?

Beg?
Plead?
or shoot?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 February 2018 11:53:06 AM
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Australian chapter Yank NRA: "There are any amount of long term solutions, but how can an active shooter be stopped?"

Don't let the mongrel have a gun in the first place.

Then there's no active shooter.

Duh!

John Howard couldn't stop Martin Bryant with a short term solution but he did stop the gun freaks lining more of us up for death.

Our short term, immediate interest in Australia is to defend and consolidate our current gun laws and where opportunities present themselves make them more draconian.

That could include a permanently updated and universally available register that "outs" the enemies who lurk among us.

Eminently do-able.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Sunday, 25 February 2018 12:27:10 PM
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//So no short term solutions forthcoming?//

Oh, I say, this is a jolly good wheeze, eh lads?

First of all you force him to drop the gun! Next, you eat the gun, thus disarming him! You have now rendered him 'elpless!

Alternatively, just pull a lever and drop a 16 ton weight on his head. I learnt that in Malaya.

If either these methods should fail, simply release the tiger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90dnUbZMmM

If any of these methods should fail a Cordolaine signal can be used to excite the copper in bullets, causing them to expand in the gun barrel, rendering Earth-made firearms useless.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Cordolaine

So there you go, Is Mise. Four sensible and practical solutions to the epidemic of Australian school shootings. And they're all completely serious and not jokes at all, just like your totally serious ;) suggestion to arm teachers. Which is definitely a very practical and reasonable idea, and not just the most ridiculous suggestion you could find in order to best wind up Paul ;)

And here's another totally serious suggestion: why should teachers be the only profession to be able to defend themselves from people armed with fresh fruit? Why don't we give guns to burger flippers and checkout chicks and tour guides and nurses and work-for-the-dole people and, well, anybody with a job? Because once everybody has a gun, nobody will shoot each other anymore. That's how it works. And because all jobs will involve having a gun, there won't be any more need for those specialist professions where the employees are armed - rent-a-cops, cops and military will all become redundant. So that'll be a hefty saving in public expenditure.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 25 February 2018 12:40:53 PM
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Nice to see people making fun of the dead, Toni.

Trump's solution is being lambasted in the media but no one is offering an alternative short term solution.

Can it be that there isn't one?

Emperor,

Bereft of useful ideas as usual.

How do you stop an armed man, intent on slaughter?

Don't strain the brain.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 February 2018 1:00:40 PM
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//Nice to see people making fun of the dead, Toni.//

Et tu, brute.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 25 February 2018 1:10:11 PM
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Yank NRA asks: "How do you stop an armed man, intent on slaughter?"

Ans: You don't. Best you can do is make it difficult for someone intent on slaughter to be armed with a gun. That's what John Howard did when Martin Bryant slaughtered people because he could get hold of a gun.

Now, starting today February 25 2018, we can do better to "out" the public enemies who are clamouring for the power that Martin Bryant had.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Sunday, 25 February 2018 1:14:56 PM
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There has been a blow up at the under 9's footy match, little Johnny's old man called Freddie's father a f-wit after Johnny was disallowed a try. A 911 call has gone through to the senior citz centre. A bus load of well armed members of the pensioner militia led by 96 year old Dementia Dave is racing to the scene, carnage is expected as Dave and the old folks give no quarter, shoot first, and ask questions later. All in the name of keeping the community safe, now we can rest in our beds in peace, knowing Dave and the old folks are out there protecting us from harm. Gee, I just heard the unmistakable fire of M16's in the local park.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 February 2018 1:22:48 PM
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Paul: Zero.

Emperor: just minus altogether.

Keep having your little jollies at the expense of the dead.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 February 2018 1:28:42 PM
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//Trump's solution//

Isn't a solution, Mr. Iceberg lettuce (I couldn't think of any fruits that started with 'i', so you're a vegetable instead). It's not his, either. It's been proposed in the wake of previous school shootings by various lunatics. Just because it's been wheeled out on this occasion by Trump doesn't suddenly make it a good idea.

But I think Trump is probably aware of all that and was never intending it as a real solution anyway. He wanted to make a controversial and attention grabbing statement that would gain lots of media attention and provide a convenient smokescreen behind which to do absolutely nothing about the problem. I very much doubt his proposal will amount to anything, but that doesn't matter because it's not meant to be a solution, just a distraction.

It's a very transparent strategy: get all the anti-gun crowd so riled up over a silly red herring that they focus entirely on keeping guns out of the hands of teachers, and forget about trying to keep them out of the hands of deranged murderers. Do you reckon anyone will fall for it? I have enough faith in Americans that they'll be able to see through such an obvious and desperate ploy.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 25 February 2018 1:35:57 PM
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Yank NRA tries: "Trump's solution is being lambasted in the media but no one is offering an alternative short term solution.
Can it be that there isn't one?"

No there isn't. So we don't wait passively for an enemy like Martin Bryant or any of the vocal wannabe Martin Bryants to gun us down.

We work to put them out of business and keep them out of business. Countless Australians are alive today because John Howard did just that.

Best thing most Australians can do is support toughening of measures to keep the enemy unarmed, a deadly voice with no gun to back it up. There, Mr Enemy, is a useful idea.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Sunday, 25 February 2018 1:36:42 PM
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Emperor,

What is your solution to attacks with axes, swords or machetes?

Let's have a nation without guns, ban all guns, nobody has one.

Nobody at all.

What's your solution to disarming the criminal element in society?

Toni,

Many schools in the US already have armed teachers.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 February 2018 2:01:31 PM
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Yank NRA cops corporate kick in the gob

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-25/companies-abandon-nra-in-wake-of-florida-shooting/9482536

Looks as if the Australian chapter (including those on this Forum) is being left as an orphan.

The massacre in Florida has tipped the scales way the Port Arthur massacre did in Australia.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Sunday, 25 February 2018 2:26:23 PM
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Issy, now you please explain.

In your ideal world of the blackboard jungle, how would it work? Would guns simply be issued to teachers at Monday mornings assembly, what kind of guns would you recommend, obviously pop guns would not be effective against auto and semi auto weapons. What training and assessments would there be for teachers? Would the guns be loaded, and on open display in the classroom, at the ready. Not much good locked in the principles office. Would teachers carry these guns at recess and lunch times, would they take them home at night? How would you prevent these classroom guns falling into the hands of students? Where would the guns be when the classroom was unattended. Would teachers who are so inclined be allowed to wear battle fatigues and strap on side arms at school.

There is a swag of practical questions for you to answer.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 February 2018 3:11:10 PM
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Dear Paul and EJ,

Thank Goodness that our former PM John Howard had
the sensibility to do the right thing in this
country.

The link listed below tells us that -
America as a whole refuses to even admit
that it has a serious problem with guns and violence.
And more than that, lawmakers continue acting like
the solutions are some sort of mystery. As if there
aren't years of research and experiences in other
countries that show restrictions on firearms can save
lives.

We're told that -

The US is unique in two areas which are related when it
comes to guns:

1) They have more gun deaths than any other developed
nations.

2) They have more guns than any other country in the world.

The following link explains more:

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 February 2018 4:16:24 PM
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It's worthwhile to bear in mind the full text of the 2nd Amendment:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Because whilst the NRA are quite keen on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed' bit, they apparently don't give a rat's hindquarters about the 'well regulated militia' bit. Because lunatics shooting schoolkids is the antithesis of a well regulated militia. Who would have thought that the NRA would be so opposed to the 2nd Amendment?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 25 February 2018 7:59:28 PM
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Foxy,

Just so that we are all talking about the same things; what is a developed nation?

Paul,

Whatever the regulations are for schools that encourage teachers to be armed, but I'd go for concealed carry, at all times.

Emperor,

How are you going with a solution for axe, knife, sword and machete attacks?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 February 2018 8:02:19 PM
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That link posted by Foxy says it all with absolutely no wriggle room left for denialists.

Indeed those who deny a gun anarchy holocaust, with some 33000 x 73 = 2.4 million Yanks shot dead since the war, with pathetic pleas about other killing methods than gunfire (whataboutism) or with definitions of developed countries, are on the scale of those enemies like David Irving who deny the Nazi Holocaust with desperate technicalities about Zyklon B and gas oven design.

And like the Nazi Holocaust denialists who seek to deflect our attention from a history of butchery that killed millions before and during the war, the gun denialists seek to deflect our attention from a gun holocaust that has cut short millions of lives of people who are just like us and our families.

These are enemies that we must call out, expose and confront. A publicised register of gun enemies lurking at all levels of our population would be a start in this country that would match the start being made to call out the NRA enemy in the USA.

Every time they write or speak we will all know them.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Sunday, 25 February 2018 11:35:36 PM
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School boy; "Sir what is that big lump in your pants."
Teacher; "Its my bazoooka!"

Come, come Issy, answer the questions of how, when and why. Issy when it comes to guns, you normally sprook nonsense. On this one your sprooking utter nonsense, borderline insanity.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 February 2018 3:55:58 AM
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What is a developed nation?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 February 2018 8:01:28 AM
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The following link explains:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 26 February 2018 9:17:57 AM
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The following link explains why US gun violence
is a problem for Americans. It's worth a read:

http://theconversation.com/u-s-gun-violence-is-a-symptom-of-a-long-historical-problem-92322
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 26 February 2018 9:30:52 AM
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Issy, you have no idea as what arming teachers involves, The Donald suggested it so you're all for it, anything that puts more guns into the general community you are all for, its your Dodge City mentality, but you can't give any answers to my questions. Your credibility is shot, back to zero. My armed 'Mr Whippy' idea is more sensible, suggest it to The Donald he'll run with it, agree.

A developed nation is one when gun laws are not dictated by the knuckle dragging rednecks of the gun lobby, like in the U.S. of A, and some in Australia want as well.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 February 2018 10:16:38 AM
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Paul,

I answered your question.

Now you answer mine; how does one stop an armed person intent on murder?

Ring the police?

Hide in hope?

Shoot?

Foxy,

Thanks for the links, most instructive, it would seem that, depending on the definition, the US does not have the highest gun murder rate among the developed nations; "developed" seems to be highly subjective.
I liked the 'Human Development Index' data.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 February 2018 1:40:59 PM
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"Guns In Schools: Firearms Already Allowed In 18 States With Few Restrictions"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/guns-in-schools-firearms-_n_2482168.html

"Across the country, school districts are quietly arming teachers for the next shooting".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/14/across-the-country-school-districts-are-quietly-arming-teachers-for-the-next-shooting/?utm_term=.b427c5cf853f

I wonder will the next school shooting be in an armed school or a "Gun Free" one?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 February 2018 2:26:33 PM
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In my first link we were told that the United States has
more than six times the gun homicide rate of Canada, more than
seven times that of Sweden, more than 16 times that of
Germany - according to UN data compiled by the Guardian. These
gun deaths are a big reason US has a much higher overall
homicide rate, which includes non-gun deaths, than any other
developed nations).

And those are the facts!
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 26 February 2018 3:31:20 PM
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Foxy,

What about the Human Development Index?

After all, you put up the link and under the HDI the Us comes some way down the list.

But why the restriction to developed nations, or doesn't that fit the agenda?

Venezuela has a high HDI and almost six times the US gun death rate, Honduras does even better with 67.18/100,000 population compared to the US with 10.54.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 February 2018 5:38:12 PM
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Trying to dodge a bullet Issy. Your only answer to my questions was some goberly-goup nonsense about "but I'd go for concealed carry, at all times."
Please explain this; How would it work? Would guns simply be issued to teachers at Monday mornings assembly, what kind of guns would you recommend, obviously pop guns would not be effective against auto and semi auto weapons. What training and assessments would there be for teachers? Would the guns be loaded, and on open display in the classroom, at the ready. Not much good locked in the principles office. Would teachers carry these guns at recess and lunch times, would they take them home at night? How would you prevent these classroom guns falling into the hands of students? Where would the guns be when the classroom was unattended. Would teachers who are so inclined be allowed to wear battle fatigues and strap on side arms at school.

You Have no answers. Can't you get in contact with Gunnie Central and get some answers
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 February 2018 5:40:57 PM
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//how does one stop an armed person intent on murder?//

Release the tiger.

Haven't you been paying attention, Mr. Iceberg lettuce?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 26 February 2018 6:14:33 PM
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The following link explains how US gun deaths compare to
other countries:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 26 February 2018 6:15:09 PM
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//After all, you put up the link and under the HDI the Us comes some way down the list.//

10th out of a possible 188? That's not what I'd call 'some way down the list', that's what I'd call 'very close to the top of the list'.

//Venezuela has a high HDI and almost six times the US gun death rate, Honduras does even better//

71st and 130th respectively. You're really clutching at straws now, Mr. Iceberg lettuce.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 26 February 2018 6:31:38 PM
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Foxy,

The highest 25 States for murder are all higher than the US according to a link which you gave if you don't agree with your link; why did you give it?

I'll ask again "What is a developed nation?"

If it is not the Human Development Index (for which I thank you) what is it?

What are the criteria?

Is South Africa a developed nation?

It was under European rule but maybe, in your book, it's slid backward.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 February 2018 6:35:18 PM
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Paul,

I would go for concealed carry at all times.
Now as you are having trouble with English, 'concealed' means out of sight, and 'carry' means to carry on the person.
Carrying implies that the gun is loaded and concealed implies that it is a pistol, rifles are a bit hard to carry under the clothing.

Read my links for the different rules for different schools.

Toni,

The US is way down the list of intentional homicides (murders) on a world scale and for Foxy's benefit but 2.9 times worse than Canada.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 February 2018 7:03:28 PM
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Link to above
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 February 2018 7:06:51 PM
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For those having difficulty in comprehension,

"Human Development Index (HDI)
The HDI was created to emphasize that people and their capabilities should be the ultimate criteria for assessing the development of a country, not economic growth alone. The HDI can also be used to question national policy choices, asking how two countries with the same level of GNI per capita can end up with different human development outcomes. These contrasts can stimulate debate about government policy priorities.
The Human Development Index (HDI) is a summary measure of average achievement in key dimensions of human development: a long and healthy life, being knowledgeable and have a decent standard of living. The HDI is the geometric mean of normalized indices for each of the three dimensions.

The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita. The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean. Refer to Technical notes for more details.

The HDI simplifies and captures only part of what human development entails. It does not reflect on inequalities, poverty, human security, empowerment, etc. The HDRO offers the other composite indices as broader proxy on some of the key issues of human development, inequality, gender disparity and poverty.

A fuller picture of a country's level of human development requires analysis of other indicators and information presented in the statistical annex of the report."

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/human-development-index-hdi
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 1:38:11 PM
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Talking about lack of comprehension?

Dear of dear.

The United States according to statistics given earlier -
makes up less than 5% of the world's population but holds
31% of global mass shooters - it has by far the highest
number of privately owned guns in the world. Roughly 42%.
The two facts - gun deaths and firearm ownership are related.

The Harvard School of Public Health's Injury Control Research
Center is pretty clear.

After controlling for variables such as socio-economic factors
and other crimes -has found that places with more guns have
more gun deaths.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 2:02:22 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

You sir are certifiable.

You want weapons in 90% of our households plus you want to allow all of them the right to conceal carry?

Really mate just piss off to the States. I don't want your kind here. You really are a menace to what we have built for ourselves here, a nation that has tried to put the safety of its citizens above 'Freedom Flogs' like yourself.

You are a very selfish person and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 2:06:44 PM
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Steele,

You're great at making assumptions. what is your idea on how a murderer may be stopped when he bursts into a school?

Now don't be shy, let us have the benefit of your deep knowledge.

Foxy,

What is a developed nation?

Have you made your choice of the various definitions which are in the links that you so kindly provided?

Paul,

To answer your question on training of teachers, well for starters I'd expect them to be able to fire and get 6 upper body hits with a pistol at 25 metres in 20 second and fire and get 6 chest hits at 7 and 1/2 metres in 5 seconds; once they attain that level of proficiency serious training could start.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 4:53:06 PM
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//To answer your question on training of teachers, well for starters I'd expect them to be able to fire and get 6 upper body hits with a pistol at 25 metres in 20 second and fire and get 6 chest hits at 7 and 1/2 metres in 5 seconds; once they attain that level of proficiency serious training could start.//

XD

Now, which is the more sane policy? Marksman training for teachers, or just tightening up the gun laws? Take as much time as you need.

Always about the cure, and never the prevention... it's people like you that spread superbugs.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 5:41:47 PM
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Toni,

How would you stop a murderer in a school?

Maybe he has a gun, or as happened in China, a knife or as in other places a machete; what's your solution to ending the immediate problem?

Pass a law banning knives?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 6:08:00 PM
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Foxy,

That's an interesting medical opinion, have you looked up the deaths due to medical people in the US?

"Hospital medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the United States. That’s 700 people per day, notes Steve Swensen. “And most of those have a second victim: the nurses, doctors, social workers, managers, pharmacists involved in their care.”

How big of a factor is this victimization? And what can we do to prevent this tragedy, apart from addressing the cause of the preventable death?

In a Mayo Clinic study with the American College of Surgeons, 8.9% of participating U.S. surgeons reported the belief that they’ve made a major medical error within the last 3 months — and 1.5% believe their error resulted in a patient’s death, according to Tait Shanafelt. “When you think about that for a minute, it’s a staggering number,” Shanafelt says. Suicide ideation doubles in that 3-month window as well, he notes, independent of depression — the risk of which triples. “So when we make mistakes — and all physicians will make mistakes during the course of their career — it has a substantial toll on us. And there’s a strong link there with burnout.”

700 a day
255500 in a year and 156200 in a Leap Year.

Seems that the Medical profession ought to get its own house in order, there's scope for a lot of studies there.

Note that this report is on Preventable deaths, PREVENTABLE!!

http://catalyst.nejm.org/medical-errors-preventable-deaths/
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 8:02:17 PM
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//How would you stop a murderer in a school?//

I refer you to my previous answer to this question.

//Release the tiger.

Haven't you been paying attention, Mr. Iceberg lettuce?//

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8142#253541

Most schools have tigers these days... if Gonski had been fully implemented, there'd probably be a tiger in every school by now. Unfortunately there are still a number of State and Catholic systemic schools in poorer socioeconomic areas who lack not only for tigers, but even basic necessities like 16 ton weights.

I'm in support of a full roll-out to ensure that no school is left behind when it comes to tigers, and that no school in the 21st century, even if they're from beyond the back of Bugarup, is without precariously balanced 16 ton weights in their roof cavities.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 8:14:38 PM
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Toni,

Paul is a better comedian than you, and he's apauling!
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 8:35:39 PM
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Issy, how do you conceal and carry a bazooka if you're only wearing a jock strap? Gee, even worse for the teacher at the swimming pool in his pair of Tony Abbott designed budgie smugglers. It boggles the mind, the possibilities are endless
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 February 2018 9:44:46 PM
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Paul,

Is it a Green thing to joke about dead children or is it just you?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 7:06:25 AM
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Why an American mother just joined the NRA,

"As a mom of kids in elementary school, I became a proud member of the NRA for the first time last week. I did so because the absence of common sense that I’ve witnessed recently is alarming to me as a parent.
We’ve seen deeply misguided hatred and rage directed toward people who want to protect themselves with a gun rather than targeted at the heart of the problem. It’s time for reason and sound judgement to prevail."

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/27/nra-just-got-new-member-here-s-why-this-mom-two-joined-group.html

and a bit more from the same source,

"It was first revealed that the FBI received tips and didn’t follow proper protocols. It came to light that police were called to the school shooter’s home 45 times and did nothing, and since 2011 there were at least 30 reports of domestic violence and troublesome behavior against the shooter.

We’ve also learned that a Broward County deputy assigned to the school, and possibly two other deputies, didn’t go into the school while the shooting was going on, and instead waited outside.

Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel was asked by CNN anchor Jake Tapper if he thought the shooting might not happen if his office had done things differently. The sheriff tried to be cute and funny with his answer: “If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, O.J. Simpson would still be in the record books.” There’s no humor in 17 dead kids and adults whose lives could have been saved if people would have done their jobs."

Seems that there are other comedians besides our resident ones.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 7:19:42 AM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

There's quite a few sites on the web about "How
to talk to a gun nut," here's just two:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martha-rosenberg/how-to-talk-to-a-gun-nut_b_3856291.html

And -

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/4-pro-gun-arguments-were-sick-of-hearing-20151001
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 10:58:55 AM
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Foxy,

Nothing to say about the preventable deaths in hospitals?

Still waiting for you, and others, to give us the benefit of your/their wide experience re. how to stop a murderer who is in a school and is armed and is already or is about to kill children.

Who knows your wisdom may save many lives.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 12:20:04 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

You are really coming across as one hell of a deluded nutcase my friend.

Why are you talking about a spate of stabbings in China to justify arming 95% of the Australian populace?

You are living some kind of weird sick fantasy inventing threats to get your way. You are acting like a selfish child.

Okay let's play a fantasy scenario, you seem prepared to put other's lives in danger how about your own? Would you commit to taking your own life if after you got your way and there was a school shooting in this country?

Dear foxy,

Thank's for the links. This really isn't a logic thing anymore it is a mental health issue.

This was more on the money for me;

“What, then, is the best way to respond to someone suffering from a clinical delusion?"

"First, don’t ignore the delusion or write it off as just a fleeting belief. This can potentially be disastrous, especially if bodily injury or death could result should the individual take action on their delusion. For example, if your loved one professes to believe the FBI bugged their house and is tracking them, they might one day reach a point wherein they take up arms and murder law enforcement officials to gain vengeance. Indeed, if someone you know is experiencing a clinical delusion, it’s imperative you recognize it for what it is."

"Next, calmly ask the individual pertinent questions in a nonjudgmental manner so as to better understand why they believe what they do. How did they arrive at their belief? How long have they held their belief? What do they plan to do in response to it?"
http://challengethestorm.org/talk-someone-experiencing-clinical-delusion-just-radically-different-point-view/.

My problem is I just don't have the patience or care enough for an anonymous entity like Is Mise to engage in such a manner. Perhaps I just need to be a better person.

News just in in Victoria that the government has again slacked our gun laws by allowing gun owners to advertise their second hand weapons on the internet, something that had been banned before.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 4:01:13 PM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

I firmly believe that by reducing the number
of firearms and preventing more people from obtaining
them through stricter gun lives would save lives.
Where there are more guns there are more gun deaths.
If murderers didn't have access to firearms-
"a good guy with a gun" wouldn't be needed in the first
place.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 5:31:39 PM
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cont'd - the sentence should read - "
through stricter gun laws ," my apologies
for the typo.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 5:33:32 PM
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Issy, no one is making jokes about dead children. In fact is is you who favours a "few" dead kids being the price to pay, so a old selfish deluded gunnie can pursue his favoured pasttime.
Look at those 'Wild West' fools you see as the ideal, what are they doing? Glorifying a place and time when innocent men, women and children were gun downed indiscriminately in cold blood, Native Americans were massacred at will!
What your video did not show, was the life size dummies, these Wild West dummies wheel out and shoot "dead" as part of their family fun day, that is also a way they get their jollies.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 6:03:08 PM
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Paul.

If you knew anything you'd know that it is against the law in Australia to shoot at recognisable representations of human beings, that's why you didn't see any such targets.

There are printable targets of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and others like them on the net; but shooting Hitler et al, is a no-no.

If left-over election posters are used for target backing the face must face away from the shooter, this applies even to the Greens candidates.

Steele,

More wild suppositions; I'll have one, I'll bet that you pulled the wings off flies, or did you only pull one off so that they buzzed around in a circle?

Foxy,

That is a very profound finding about guns, did you know that where there are few cars there are few car deaths and that where there are few knives there are few knife deaths.
However, to prove that the presence of a particular weapon causes no deaths, since their invention, over three hundred years ago, no one has been killed with a Zimmerstutzen.
Zimmerstutzen are firearms and lethal weapons in Australia.

Have you decided on what a developed nation is yet, and have you thought of a solution, for immediate use against a murderer in a school room?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 7:20:11 PM
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For General Consumption
(but to some akin to castor oil [not the automotive type]).

"Abstract:
The 1996-97 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict gun
laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996,
where 35 people were killed. Despite the fact that several researchers using the same
data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not
appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm
deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means
to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did
not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates."

http://ssaa.org.au/assets/news-resources/research/2008-08_the-australian-firearms-buyback-and-its-effect-on-gun-deaths.pdf
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 February 2018 7:33:55 PM
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Issy, and when have the demented gunnies ever been concerned about the law, they believe the wild wild west was a lawless frontier, and in the name of authenticity their re-enactment must include the wasting of varmints. Hasn't Witchita Willy told you about the stack of life size dummies they keep in the barn for target practice?

Before you demand proof, I will provide it, hot off the press from the central west.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjeO7aL1efU

You never got back to me about your Supreme Leader in NSW, your number one ticket holder, Tony (Wombat) Azzi. Please fill me in, is Tone still active in wombat territory.

"There are printable targets of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and others like them on the net;" How much for a Charlton Heston poster?

I see you understand the finer points of pulling wings off flies. Is that something you do down at your local 'Burgers and Bullet' hangout, as part of the wholesome family entertainment. making flies an easier target? No flies on you!
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 1 March 2018 4:18:17 AM
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Paul,

I answered your question on that character long back but you haven't told me yet what you think is the immediate solution to an armed killer in a school.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 1 March 2018 9:09:35 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

Name a single wild suppositions I have made.

Are you saying if we had a school shooting in this country after implementing your insane policy of permitting 95% of Australian households to be weaponised 'for their own protection' that it would be a supposition to blame you for the resultant deaths? What if the re were 2 or 3 or 4? What if there were 10? at what point should you be required to accept responsibility and take your own life?

Why do you value your guns over the lives of Australian children? Why do you want to create a society that ends up feeling the need to arm its teachers for gods sake?

You sir are a very selfish and uncaring person.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 1 March 2018 9:22:42 AM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

Absolutely a murderer can often kill one person
of several with a knife or a car before being
stopped but to really rack up those mind
blowing death counts - to make sure that many,
many lives are destroyed and families are ruined
in the space of five or 10 minutes - you need a gun.

If all some people care about is apportioning blame
then they will continue to claim that a knife or a
car are equivalent weapons. However for those of us
who however are more worried about preventing
unnecessary deaths the sheer amount of damage a gun
can do is reason to limit who can get their hands on one.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 1 March 2018 9:38:21 AM
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Foxy,

How much damage could one do with a Zimmerstutzen?

Yet they are lethal weapons in Australia.

Bombs are very effective at killing large numbers of people,

"Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was an American domestic terrorist who perpetrated the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, which killed 168 people and injured over 680 others.[3][4] The bombing was the deadliest act of terrorism within the United States prior to the September 11 attacks, and remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in United States history."

I'm sure that you don't need a reference for him.

You still haven't told us how you would stop a crazy murderer who was in a school.

Why are you so reticent?

Steele,

"Dear Is Mise,

You are really coming across as one hell of a deluded nutcase my friend.

Why are you talking about a spate of stabbings in China to justify arming 95% of the Australian populace?

You are living some kind of weird sick fantasy inventing threats to get your way. You are acting like a selfish child."

There's a few assumptions on your part.

How are you going with an answer to the problem of immediately stopping a killer in a school?

Can't answer or too embarrassed to give the obvious answer?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 1 March 2018 10:08:38 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

You would lock the doors and call the police. What you wouldn't bloody do is saturate our society with weapons to make it far more likely that the killer is able to obtain the means to slaughter far more children than otherwise would be the case.

Who should have been armed at Port Arthur and with what kind of weapons?

Do you want cafe owners with AR15s lying at the ready behind their counters?

Selfish, selfish man.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 1 March 2018 11:04:04 AM
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Steele,

"You would lock the doors and call the police..."

It's been tried and doesn't work and most schools don't have bullet proof door locks or doors.

"Who should have been armed at Port Arthur and with what kind of weapons?"

One good shot with a single shot pistol would have been enough.

A friend of mine was at a nightclub in New Guinea, having a quiet night out with his pregnant wife.
The club was attacked by armed criminals who shot the security guard then held the patrons at gunpoint, when they ordered everyone to lie on the floor he decided that that was far enough, and that the threat had become unacceptable, so he drew his pistol and shot the five of them dead.

Do you think that he should not have had a pistol?
Do you think that his action was excessive?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 1 March 2018 11:38:57 AM
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Here's an interesting snippet from a person on the front line,

"Salt Lake City, Utah, teacher Kasey Hansen said the idea to arm herself in school began with the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, where 20 children and six adults died.

“It just really hit home that these teachers, all they could do was pile those kids in a corner and stand in front of them and hope for the best,” said Hansen, who carries a concealed handgun as she teaches special education students."

“I’m not here to tell all teachers that they have to carry a gun,” she said. “For me personally, I felt that it was more of a solution than just hiding in a corner and waiting.”

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/02/22/utah-already-allows-concealed-weapons-on-campus-could-arming-teachers-stop-shootings/
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 1 March 2018 12:38:20 PM
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Nothing re-assures parents more than surrounding
their kids with the kind of teachers who have lots
of weapons and time on their hands!

I suggest putting a teacher in every gun store.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 1 March 2018 12:57:08 PM
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Foxy,

Very interesting and your input is much appreciated, especially your links;
have you sorted out yet what a developed nation is?

Have you yet decided what could be done by a teacher whose school has been invaded by a killer?

I await your answers.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 1 March 2018 1:26:43 PM
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Is Mise,

I'm not interested in your distractions of a
ridiculous debate about arming teachers.

What the debate should be about is the sick
gun culture in the US. It should be about limiting
access to firearms. It should be about universal
background checks, banning assault weapons, taking
away guns from people charged or convicted of crimes.
It should be about making it easier to take away guns
from people who may represent a threat to themselves
or others.

These steps may not end gun deaths in the US and they
certainly won't prevent law-abiding gun owners from
purchasing weapons but they will save lives - and in
the end what else really matters.

I am not interested in engaging with you about having
more guns or lessening gun laws. I find those arguments
irrational.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 1 March 2018 7:02:22 PM
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Foxy,

"What the debate should be about is the sick
gun culture in the US. It should be about limiting
access to firearms. It should be about universal
background checks, banning assault weapons, taking
away guns from people charged or convicted of crimes.
It should be about making it easier to take away guns
from people who may represent a threat to themselves
or others."

Fair enough, they already have background checks and assault rifles are banned, just as in Australia, assault rifles can only be held on a special licence.
As in Australia, people are said to be innocent until convicted; criminals are prohibited from having firearms, but, just as in Australia, American criminals do not obey the law.
That's why they are called criminals.

Mental health is a big problem in America they did the same as Australia and shut the Mental Asylums to save money, not much can be done about that.

Why won't you say what you consider that a teacher could do to resist an immediate threat to the life of herself and the children?

Your advice could possibly save lives or don't you care?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 1 March 2018 8:25:37 PM
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The knee-jerk reaction to mass killings in schools by Trump and supported by you, is not the answer. The arming of teachers can only result in more shootings, more deaths. The US has to grasp the nettle and do something about the systemic problem they have with guns in their community. I am glad to see you at least acknowledge there is a problem, but again the response from the hard political right in the US is disappointing.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 2 March 2018 3:31:32 AM
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Paul,

There is only one immediate answer to the problem of school shootings, someone who is on the spot and who is armed.
The teacher is the most logical as the teacher is also a target.

No one wants to see school children shot, unlike those who feed on such tragedies for political point scoring, but something must be done that can be quickly implemented and arming those school personnel who wish to be armed is the only quick solution.

The possible long-term solutions can be discussed at length in the future but what is now needed is some way of stopping a killer from murdering children and teachers, an armed teacher is an obvious answer.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 2 March 2018 8:30:33 AM
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There is a sick gun culture in the US. And if they
were really worried about preventing unnecessary
deaths - the sheer amount of damage that a gun can
do should be reason to limit who can get their hands
on one. But the NRA is a very powerful lobby and the
chances of that happening as we've seen is very slim.

Limiting access to firearms is not on their agenda. And
the recent incident proves it - it's about guns - but
their ridiculous answer is not about taking action on guns
but about arming teachers. High school students are begging
for their President to take action.

If a person is not old enough to drive a car or buy a beer,
then he should not be able to legally purchase a weapon of
mass destruction. This recent incident could have been
prevented. If the killer had been properly treated for his
mental illness, if there had been proper background checks,
then those who should not have guns would not have them.

America NEEDS stricter laws - not more guns. They need to
expose the truth about gun violence. End of story. But with
their current attitudes - nothing is going to change - the
same things will continue to happen. We do not want this to
happen here in Australia. And Thank Goodness we have enough
politicians who DO CARE. Those that want things to change here
and for us to be like the US are the ones who as SteeleRedux
pointed out are very selfish people - and they value guns
more than they value the lives of our people. Shame on them.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 2 March 2018 10:27:47 AM
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Foxy,

Obviously you are concerned, but do tell me, how could a teacher stop a murderer who is about to kill him/her and the children?

To some the answer is obvious, only if the teacher has a gun, and the only appropriate gun in the circumstances is a pistol.

Do answer the question.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 2 March 2018 11:25:06 AM
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The answer to the question has already been answered many
times over. Make guns less accessible, not more accessible.
Restrictions on firearms can save lives.
Arming teachers will not solve the problem.

The problem lies with people
who as a whole refuse to even admit they have a serious
problem with guns and violence. But more than that,
lawmakers continue (especially in the US)
acting like the solutions are
some sort of mystery. As if there aren't years of research and
experiences in other countries that clearly show that
restrictions on firearms can save lives. And in the US the
problem is very much the easy access to guns and the abundance
of guns. Until that changes - nothing will change in that
country and arming teachers will not solve their problems.
It will only make things worse.

How do you solve the problem of an armed murderer in a
classroom? You solve it by making it difficult for
them to have access to weapons of mass destruction.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 2 March 2018 1:03:06 PM
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Foxy,

You are sprouting pure politically correct foolishness, you seem to have gone, with others, into tunnel vision hyperdrive.

Whenever there is a school shooting the last thing that some want is for the potential victims to be able to protect themselves and others, every under-informed pundit, every over-opinionated academic and the verbally diarrhoeic public say that arming teachers is not the answer, but it is the answer for a teacher confronted by a killer; there is no other answer for a person faced by an armed killer.

Do you expect that the policeman a few days ago in Brisbane should not have had a pistol with which to defend himself from an attacker?

If you can't honestly say that the policeman should not have been able to shoot his attacker, then you can't honestly say that a schoolteacher in the same position should not have the same chance of defence.

Despite what you say, no one has answered the question that I put.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 2 March 2018 1:31:04 PM
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Is Mise,

What a lot of nonsense.

The incident in Brisbane of which you speak could have been
handled differently had the police officers called for
back-up and used such devices as nets, stun guns, or simply
shooting the knife wielding assailant in the legs. But
obviously the "shoot to kill" mentality is the training they
receive - which is unfortunate.

This is not the first or the last incident where supposedly
trained law enforcement officers in this country are not
trained to handle difficult situations and can't cope well
under pressure.

Therefore arming teachers - who are neither soldiers, law
enforement officers or military and are not professionally
trained to handle guns - or are used to being in highly stressful
situations as people in law enforcement or the military
should be - giving them guns could realistically only
make things worse - being shot themselves with their own
guns, or being too scared to use them properly.

Even trained security officers in the recent shootings in
the US - froze - and did not get involved - being too afraid
to risk their lives in being shot by an assault weapon.

I have lost interest in continuing to argue with you.
I cannot understand the peculiar primary afforded the US
firearm industry over public safety. And it horrifies me
that you want to see this brought into our country.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 2 March 2018 2:58:35 PM
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Foxy,

"Even trained security officers in the recent shootings in
the US - froze - and did not get involved - being too afraid
to risk their lives in being shot by an assault weapon."

Whether they were afraid or not [and they are not required by law to risk their lives] is immaterial, what is material is what chance did unarmed teachers have?
The shooter did not have an assault weapon, assault rifles have never been used in a school shooting in the US. Don't just parrot what the media tell you to think.

"I have lost interest in continuing to argue with you.
I cannot understand the peculiar primary afforded the US
firearm industry over public safety. And it horrifies me
that you want to see this brought into our country"

Just leave the word "interest" out of the sentence above and you'll be right.

"And it horrifies me that you want to see this brought into our country" is pure unfounded speculation on your part, as I've said before I respect and comply with the Firearms Laws in Australia even though some of them are undoubtedly stupid.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 2 March 2018 3:30:20 PM
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Foxy,

I missed mentioning these gems of pure wisdom:

"giving them guns could realistically only
make things worse - being shot themselves with their own
guns, or being too scared to use them properly."

"Make things worse" hardly, the teacher is about to be shot!

"...being shot themselves with their own gun" hardly a worry, the murderer is already armed!

"or being too scared to use them properly" no comment!!

Please don't leave, you are only now starting to be really comedic.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 2 March 2018 3:50:13 PM
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Is Mise,

The tired old rationalisation that guns protect people
is frankly contradicted by the evidence. The inescapable
conclusion is that gun ownership makes everyone feel
less safe. The logic the Riflemen's Associations espouse
is perverse and transparently self-serving. The solution to
gun crimes is not more guns and no amount of rhetorical
dexterity can surmount this fact.

If the US is to have a truly honest discussion about its
gun culture it needs to be rooted in fact rather than fantasy
and the sound and fury from the NRA should be dismissed with
the contempt it deserves.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 2 March 2018 4:14:50 PM
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Foxy,

If every thing that you have just said were true, how does that help teachers who may be confronted by a murderer in their classroom tomorrow?

Not next year or ten years down the track, but tomorrow.

It's inexperienced do gooders who, if they stop the arming of teachers and other school staff, will be partly responsible for school children being murdered.

Nothing to say about assault rifles having never been used in a school shooting in the US?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 2 March 2018 5:06:25 PM
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Is Mise,

I don't have to say anything. The facts are freely
available:

http://time.com/5160267/gun-used-florida-school-shooting-ar-15/

And now, I've lost interest!
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 2 March 2018 6:28:26 PM
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Foxy,

Those aren't the facts about assault rifles, you have all been led astray because you are so lacking in knowledge that you will accept anything that the media feeds you.

Here is the US Army's definition, they should know:

"The U.S. Army defines assault rifles as "short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges." ... It must be capable of selective fire."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

People also ask
Is an AR 15 considered an assault rifle?
The AR in “AR-15” rifle stands for ArmaLite rifle, after the company that developed it in the 1950s. ... AR-15-style rifles are NOT “assault weapons” or “assault rifles.” An assault rifle is fully automatic — a machine gun. Automatic firearms have been severely restricted from civilian ownership since 1934."

Digest that.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 2 March 2018 7:26:28 PM
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When it comes to mass killings only a true gunnie would know his weapons of choice, isn't that right Issy? Trying to bog down the argument in technical nonsense is typical of those who are happy to see a fellow gunnie rampage through a school killing innocent children, isn't that right Issy?
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 3 March 2018 4:37:35 AM
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Dear Paul,

Here's more on the history of the Ar-15 and why its used
in mass shootings. It's worth a read - and quite horrific:

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/ar-15-semi-automatic-history-why-used-mass-shootings-2018-2?r=US&lR=T
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 9:38:01 AM
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Paul,

No one is trying to bog down the argument with technicalities; pointing out that the media wrongly label something is only attempting to get everyone talking about the same thing.

Foxy,

Even so, the AR15 is not an assault weapon, so start calling it what it is, a semi-automatic rifle.
No school shooting in the US has been done with an assault rifle.

You can both answer this:

If a school teacher and her charges were in imminent danger of being shot and it was in your power to give her a pistol, would you do so, or would you watch them die?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 3 March 2018 11:10:25 AM
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The AR-15 weapon was used by accused shooter
Nikolas Cruz at a high school in parkland, Florida.
It is a semi-automatic version
of the US military's M-16 reifle and was included in a ten
year ban signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1994.

The law also banned the semi-automatic weapons used in other
mass shootings, including the October 1st massacre in Las
Vegas and the 2012 shooting in Newton, Connect...

Regardless of how gun-lovers try to justify the use of AR-15
style rifle - the fact controversy stems from
the widespread use of it in some of
the nation's (US) worst mass shootings.

Most rational people realise that -
if the US does not reform its gun laws, it will stay exactly
where it is. Nothing will change.

You can't keep doing what you're doing and expect different
results - that's insane.

Australia is by far a safer place today than it was before we took
action to limit the availability of guns:

http://fortune.com/2018/02/20/australia-gun-control-success/
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 1:17:20 PM
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//If a school teacher and her charges were in imminent danger of being shot and it was in your power to give her a pistol, would you do so//

Nah, still too many things that can go wrong - poor aim, slow reflexes on the part of the teacher, stray ricochets etc.

I would use my powers to pre-emptively 'disarm' the would-be murderer (i.e. not allow him to have the gun in the first place) so that he could not threaten anybody's life with it.

And the nice thing is, it doesn't require the intervention of some super-being who has been granted supernatural abilities for the purpose of a hypothetical exercise to do that. Governments can pass laws that do the same thing. A lot of them have, right across the globe. It seems to have worked well for the fortunate citizens of those countries. God bless Australia.

America could too - there's nothing stopping them, the 2nd Amendment isn't inviolate (they repealed the 18th Amendment, so it can certainly be done). Unfortunately they make the mistake of allowing the agenda to be set by crazies so far gone in their obsession with guns that they are simply incapable of countenancing any proposal which might mean fewer guns. Their belief that the more guns, the better is such a deeply ingrained and fundamental part of their identity that they regard proposals to remove guns as nonsensical, and will only give consideration to those which are at least gun-neutral.

And the danger with that is that once they've got passed their bills to arm teachers or open new mental health wards or whatever (as long as it doesn't mean less guns), they'll say to themselves 'right, well that's all sorted now' and pat themselves on the back for job well done, and nothing will be done to keep guns out of the hands of the sort of people that shoot up schools... and in time, it will happen again.

Australia, don't become America.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 3 March 2018 1:44:25 PM
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Dear Toni,

Absolutely spot on.
You're right -

Why not just ban guns and when people are upset
about it, just send them "thoughts and prayers?"

If "thoughts and prayers" are good enough for people
who've lost their families - then it's good enough
for people who've lost their guns.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 2:32:17 PM
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cont'd ...

Oh that's right - gun control doesn't work...

Except in Canada, Japan, England, Spain, Australia, Sweden,
Iceland, Italy, Israel, Denmark, Germany ...

We should arm every teacher...
The bastards won't even buy them pencils and printer ink...
now they've got the budget for Glocks?
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 2:35:47 PM
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cont'd ...

If children are slaughtered in their school and
your reaction is "Don't you dare think about taking
my guns," rather than "How do we stop this from
ever happening again?"

Then we don't have a difference in opinion.

We have a difference in morality.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 2:39:06 PM
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Foxy,

"Australia is by far a safer place today than it was before we took
action to limit the availability of guns:"

Just how did we limit the availability of guns,
there are now more guns in Australia than before the buyback.

But there are fewer murders and less crime, which poses the question,

Do more guns mean less crime?

Toni,

Are you quite happy that a US teacher in the future when facing and trying to protect children from an armed murderer, should be prevented from having any effective means of defence?

Only a coward or a deviant would answer 'Yes".
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 3 March 2018 2:52:28 PM
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Sorry, made a mistake before.

//as long as it doesn't mean less guns//

Should have been:

\\as long as it doesn't mean fewer guns\\

My bad.

Now, as for the rantings of Mr. Iceberg lettuce.

//Are you quite happy that a US teacher in the future when facing and trying to protect children from an armed murderer, should be prevented from having any effective means of defence?

Only a coward or a deviant would answer 'Yes".//

No. We've been over this already. I am fully in support of an emergency tiger in every classroom.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 3 March 2018 3:14:01 PM
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According to FactCheck:

What we can say with certainty is that in the 15 years
prior to the first gun buy back in 1996, there had been 13
mass shootings in Australia in which a total of 104 people
were killed and 52 injured.

In the 21 years since more restrictive firearm policies came
into effect there has not been a single mass shooting in the
country.

Unlike in the US where more guns has meant more mass
shootings.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 3:30:16 PM
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//there are now more guns in Australia than before the buyback.//

And about 35% more people than there were in 1996. Do you have any per capita figures to share with us, or would that undermine your argument?

.... and never mind, found some for myself:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/australia-has-more-guns-than-before-port-arthur-massacre/7366360

Whaddaya know, per capita ownership is 23% lower than it was before Port Arthur.

You're going to have to do better than that, Mr. Iceberg lettuce.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 3 March 2018 3:32:04 PM
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Toni,

Then more guns means more crime?

Only goes to shew that the above is a foolish simplistic statement.

The US has more guns than ever but crime is falling and the same goes for Australia, therefore more guns mean less crime.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 3 March 2018 3:49:16 PM
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Foxy,

"In the 21 years since more restrictive firearm policies came
into effect there has not been a single mass shooting in the
country."

These are listed as mass shootings:

Wright St Bikie Murders, 8 October 1999, Adelaide, 3 dead, 2 injured

Hectorville siege, 29 April 2011, South Australia 3 dead, 3 injured

Hunt family murders, 9 September 2014, Lockhart, New South Wales 5 dead. 0 injured.

Now they weren't big ones but they do rather destroy your statement that there have been no mass shootings.
Then there is the possibility of substitution of methods, such as arson.
15 dead at the Childers fire, 10 at the Churchill fire and 11 at Quakers Hill.

I see that the deviant is still cracking jokes at the expense of dead children.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 3 March 2018 5:01:21 PM
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Is Mise,

The notion that more guns lead to less crime is almost
certainly incorrect. The research on guns is not uniform
and we could certainly use more of it. But when all but
a few studies point in the same direction, we can feel
confident that the arrow is aiming at the truth --- which
is, in this case, that guns do not inhibit crime and
violence but instead make it worse.

The popular gun-advocacy bumper-sticker says that -
" Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
And it is in fact true. You can't have a gun murder without
guns, or people. Therefore the bumper-sticker should add -
"Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people more
easily." We can't just simply separate the two.

See you on another discussion.

Cheers.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 5:53:59 PM
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Is Mise,

Just a small correction before I go:

The so called "mass shootings" that you referred to
earlier - the Wright St Bikie murders, the Hunt
family murders, and the Hectorville - according
to police reports were not mass shootings but
individual murder cases.

Cheers.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 March 2018 6:56:34 PM
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Foxy,

Do you mean that they were murders carried out by an individual, if so; Martin Bryant was an individual?

If you mean that they were slayings of an individual then, most obviously you are wrong as all of them were multiple slayings.

"More guns means more crime" and "More guns mean less crime" are both open to interpretation but the US is getting more guns and the crime rate is falling and our crime rate is falling as we get more guns so, is it not obvious that more guns equal less crime?

If "More guns mean more crime" why are the crime rates falling?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 3 March 2018 7:15:44 PM
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//Then more guns means more crime?

Only goes to shew that the above is a foolish simplistic statement.//

At what point did I say that, Mr. Iceberg lettuce?

I was simply pointing out that your claim about 'more guns since whenever' isn't very meaningful if you don't factor in the population growth since whenever.

Apparently not content to attempt to employ misleading statistical arguments in the mistaken belief that we won't see through them, you now feel it necessary to try and put words in my mouth.

You're just not trying any more, are you Mr. Iceberg lettuce?

//The US has more guns than ever but crime is falling and the same goes for Australia//

Well that's good to know, but I'm not sure what relevance it has to the discussion at hand. We're not talking about crime in general, Mr. Iceberg lettuce. We're talking about limited subset of crimes. It may surprise you to learn that there all manner of illegal activities one can engage in without the use of firearms. Do you really think that rates of gun ownership have any bearing on the rates of, say, wire fraud?

I think you should stick to your cute little ethical dilemmas about teachers with guns. You're not very good at the third kind of lie.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 3 March 2018 7:50:24 PM
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Issy, is it true that you will be on the Martin Bryant Float at the next G & L mardi gras? That't the Gun & Loony mardi gras, not the other one tonight.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 3 March 2018 7:51:13 PM
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Toni,

You're starting to get it.

The mantra "More guns mean more crime"
is a stupid statement, and just unprovable as "More guns means less crime"

and there hasn't been a lucid observation on:

"Salt Lake City, Utah, teacher Kasey Hansen said the idea to arm herself in school began with the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, where 20 children and six adults died.

“It just really hit home that these teachers, all they could do was pile those kids in a corner and stand in front of them and hope for the best,” said Hansen, who carries a concealed handgun as she teaches special education students."

“I’m not here to tell all teachers that they have to carry a gun,” she said. “For me personally, I felt that it was more of a solution than just hiding in a corner and waiting.”

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/02/22/utah-already-allows-concealed-weapons-on-campus-could-arming-teachers-stop-shootings/

anyone care to tell this teacher where she is wrong and suggest a workable alternative for her?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2018 8:22:36 AM
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Mass killings are multiple-casualty events.
There are shootings where criminal gangs are involved,
domestic violence or family violence springs from different
causes - all these are considered separately and do not
meet the federal definition of "mass killings."

Now to Australia's gun reforms?
The bottom line is - the reforms had the effect of
reducing the number of guns that are available in Australia.
This was strongly correlated with gun homicides and suicide
deaths on the wane.

Very few people would argue that there has been at least
some minimal benefit as a result of the gun reforms.
In Australia most of us don't revere guns in the same way
that Americans do. Of course, we have certain exceptions
who do but thankfully they are a minority who'll continue
baying at our heels. Best to walk away.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 4 March 2018 10:08:16 AM
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Foxy,

"The bottom line is - the reforms had the effect of
reducing the number of guns that are available in Australia.
This was strongly correlated with gun homicides and suicide
deaths on the wane."

Utter rot, there is no such correlation; gun homicides and suicides were falling at a steady rate before 1996 and continue to fall at a steady rate.
There are now more guns in Australia than before the buyback.

There was a sharp spike after the introduction of the new laws but no one attributes that upward spike to the introduction of the laws.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2018 10:18:22 AM
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Is Mise,

Utter rot?

Do tell.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/23/australias-gun-laws-stopped-mass-shootings-and-reduced-homicides-study-finds
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 4 March 2018 1:25:49 PM
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Dear Foxy,

The problem now is that as our gun laws are being eroded and a gun culture is being promoted by selfish people like Is Mise that gun crime is starting to rapidly escalate. as Is Mise points out there are now more guns in this country that there was at the time of Port Arthur. Sure they are not of the type of weaponry that caused so much damage in Tasmania or in Hoddle Street but the influx of guns and gun ownership is directly impacting the number of gun offenses which a climbing alarmingly year after year.

Firearm offences in Victoria had been steadily dropping to a low of 1980 in 2011. It climbed to 2442 in 2012. 3230 in 2013. 4091 in 2014. 4074 in 2015. In 2016 it hit an incredible 4947, an increase of 150% in 5 years.

Gunshot injuries have followed a similar trajectory. In 2011 there were 15 and this had doubled by 2016 to 31. Gun homicides fell to a low of 4 in 2006 but in the following years the average has been twice that.

People like Is Mise have to bear responsibility for those slain Australians who would otherwise be alive without the gun lobby interfering in our politics.

Pathetic, selfish people.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 4 March 2018 2:17:48 PM
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Foxy,

Yes, utter rot!!
[with ! marks]

See: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/fact-check-gun-homicides-and-suicides-john-howard-port-arthur/7254880

and note, as you read it, that Sydney University partly relies on Philip Alpers, who has no academic qualifications whatsoever and has made a career out of creating controversy.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2018 2:29:32 PM
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Dear Steele,

Very few sane people would argue that there has
been at least some minimal benefit of our gun
reform laws. They strongly contributed to reducing
the number of guns that are available to Australians
and it would be unfortunate if things were to change
here along the lines of the US. Our country has not had
another large casualty mass shooting since. We know that
other countries in response to one mass shooting have
been able to craft laws that almost eliminate mass
shootings. One reason the US can't emulate Australia or
any other country is purely political. American gun rights
advocates say this kind of confiscation that we had here in
Australia would prompt a civil war in the US. Having lived
and worked in the US for close to ten years - I believe them.

I don't want this to happen here in Australia.

Is Mise,

I have decided to stop reading your posts.
I don't need to deal with any more irrationality.
There's too much toxicity in the world as it is
and encouraging someone who wants to bring more
guns into our society is not something that anyone
of us should be doing.

Cheers.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 4 March 2018 3:03:35 PM
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Foxy,

"... someone who wants to bring more
guns into our society is not something that anyone
of us should be doing."

Where have I ever advocated that?

Steele,

"People like Is Mise have to bear responsibility for those slain Australians who would otherwise be alive without the gun lobby interfering in our politics"

Do tell.

The SF&F Party have six elected representatives in Australian Parliaments, that's hardly interfering in politics, that's being a legitimate part of politics.

Just what sort of guns have been used in these shootings?
What is the breakdown of ethnic group involvement?
How many of the perpetrators were licenced firearm holders?
How many of the firearms used were registered?

Having deeply researched this, I'm sure you'll supply the answers.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2018 3:15:33 PM
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It's not a ban on political donations by Australia's public enemies that is required, it's public exposure of their money trail.

Surprisingly it's the Yank NRA's own spokesman on this thread who posted the link at http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/fact-check-gun-homicides-and-suicides-john-howard-port-arthur/7254880 which contains graphs clearly showing the decline in gun deaths following the Howard reforms.

The Yank NRA didn't help its drive for restored gun anarchy in Australia by drawing attention to the fact check which showed this welcome decline. Pettifogging diversionary reference to details of types of weapons etc. which have brought to America a 1.74 million-death holocaust since World War II are of no more value than David Irving's attempts to dismiss Auschwitz with arguments about gas oven design.

The best advice I can think of was given by President Truman in the late 1940s: "When a finger appears under the door, stamp on it or it'll be followed by a hand at your throat."

There's a gunnie finger entering under Australia's door.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Sunday, 4 March 2018 4:36:46 PM
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Emperor,

The declines were there before the Howard laws and they cannot be shewn to have had an effect.

"...it's not a ban on political donations by Australia's public enemies that is required, it's public exposure of their money trail."

Definitely and the sooner the better; have you got any links that you can post shewing where the Greens get their money from?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2018 4:52:16 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

You really are a clown aren't you.

You had claimed; “Utter rot, there is no such correlation; gun homicides and suicides were falling at a steady rate before 1996 and continue to fall at a steady rate. There are now more guns in Australia than before the buyback.”

I have shown you were puling figures out of your arse as usual. The figures for Victoria expressly show that as the saturation of weapons in this country has increased, since the low after the gun buyback scheme, there has been a corresponding rise in gun crime including double the rate of homicides involving a gun.

Having your argument shot to flames you then try to deflect.

You really need to just stop and admit you are prepared to see more Australians dead from shootings so you can get to enjoy fewer restrictions on your hobby. Further you want 95% of our homes weaponised and are happy to live with the consequences. Good luck sleeping at nights.

Selfish, selfish man.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 4 March 2018 5:33:35 PM
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Steele,

"I have shown you were puling figures out of your arse as usual. The figures for Victoria expressly show that as the saturation of weapons in this country has increased, since the low after the gun buyback scheme, there has been a corresponding rise in gun crime including double the rate of homicides involving a gun."

Give some verifiable references and you might be taken seriously.

"....Further you want 95% of our homes weaponised and are happy to live with the consequences. Good luck sleeping at nights."

Where have I ever said that?

I don't have trouble sleeping at nights apart from waking for a bit of bladder relief; happens to most of us in old age.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2018 6:01:19 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

There you go;

http://www.crimestatistics.vic.gov.au/crime-statistics/historical-crime-data/victoria-police-crime-statistics-publications-and-tables

Knock yourself out.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 4 March 2018 9:05:08 PM
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Steele,

Followed your link and below are the parts that seem most pertinent,

"Crime Statistics
2013/2014 [latest available]

Armed robberies accounted for 1,254 (48.5%) of all robberies in 2013/14, a decrease of 13.3% since
2012/13. The most common weapon used in armed robberies was a knife (52.4%).
10.7% of all weapons used in robberies were a firearm (including imitation firearms), a decrease of 5.2%.

The number of aggravated burglaries offences recorded decreased by 2.9% in 2013/14, as did residential
burglaries down 1.3%. The number of aggravated burglaries involving weapons or injuries decreased by
2.7% in 2013/14, and accounted for 24.1% of aggravated burglaries.

Weapons/explosives offences increased by 13.0% from 2012/13.
[page 6]

Despite the increase in recorded offences, as a rate per 100,000 population Victoria has continued to see a
decline over the past decade. While the overall crime rate increased 3.7% between 2012/13 to 2013/14, the
rate has decreased 1.6% since 2004/05.[page 7]"

Note: "10.7% of all weapons
used in robberies were a firearm (including imitation firearms), a decrease of 5.2%."

Note those words, "DECLINE" and "DECREASE", and not all of them were real guns'

So I haven't knocked myself out but I am feeling a little sorry.....for you.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2018 9:46:07 PM
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//The mantra "More guns mean more crime"
is a stupid statement, and just unprovable as "More guns means less crime"//

Well done, Mr. Iceberg lettuce! One successfully destroyed strawman.

I still don't recall claiming that "More guns mean more crime" (probably because I didn't claim that). More guns means more shooting. Some of it will be harmless, legal shooting at clay pigeons and so forth. Some of it will be fatal or disabling accidents, and some will be suicides - both perfectly legal, but still Bad Things. And some will be gun violence: assaults, GBH, homicide, mass shootings etc. - things that are generally (though not necessarily) illegal and definitely Bad Things.

But if the rise in those types of crime is compensated for by a decrease in other types of crime, the overall crime rate will fall.

//and there hasn't been a lucid observation on:

"Salt Lake City, Utah, teacher Kasey Hansen said the idea to arm herself in school//

More fool the Utah state leglistaure. It's a really bad idea to let teachers go arming themselves, there's way too much potential for things to go horribly wrong.

I've known teachers to completely lose it in the face of provocation from their students. One of the teachers at my school had a nervous breakdown in the classroom. Can you imagine what would happen when a class full of Chads pushes a teacher over the edge, and that teacher happens to be carrying a gun? I can. I have to say that I don't think this one is highly probable; most teachers I know are patient people with excellent impulse control. But it's still a dangerous possibility.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 8:02:53 AM
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And can you imagine what will happen when some some psycho, probably called Chad, simply beats down an unsuspecting teacher and use their gun for a shooting? I can. And this one is all too probable. Teenagers have lousy impulse control, and some of them are just plain old deadbeats (because apparently even deadbeats need an education, although lord knows why since they obviously don't value them). There are plenty of Chads in schools all across this country. I went to school with a bunch of them. Screw Chad.

Here is what will happen, Mr Iceberg lettuce: the school cleaners will have a devil of a time trying to get the bloodstains out of the carpet, the school will be closed for a short period, the surviving witnesses will probably wind up with PTSD, the press will have a field day, the parliament will rush trough legislation re-banning armed teachers quicker than you can blink, and Associate Professor Philip Alpers will go around being all smug and saying 'see, I told you so'. You don't want to go giving Philip Alpers a cause for smugness, do you Mr. Iceberg lettuce?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 8:03:41 AM
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"More fool the Utah state leglistaure. It's a really bad idea to let teachers go arming themselves, there's way too much potential for things to go horribly wrong."

and from your point of view, the worst thing that could go wrong would be teachers saving their own and the lives of the children.

Florida is expected to pass a law allowing teachers to be armed.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 5 March 2018 8:53:21 AM
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//and from your point of view, the worst thing that could go wrong would be teachers saving their own and the lives of the children.//

What? No it isn't. Where did I say that, Mr. Iceberg lettuce? Is that really the best you can do? If you're not even going to make an effort, why should I bother continuing with this conversation? There's no sport in it.

If I wasn't clear enough for you before, I will attempt to clarify: from my point of view the worst thing that could go wrong would be teachers shooting up their own students (but that it's very unlikely) and that the second worst thing that could go wrong would be some Chad getting hold of the gun and shooting people (and that it's all too likely).
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 9:05:15 AM
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A very simple question or two for you Issy.

"Florida is expected to pass a law allowing teachers to be armed."

Given your wealth of experience, what weapon do you recommend for teachers?

Would you like to see teachers in Australia armed as well?
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 5 March 2018 9:16:47 AM
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You didn't say that, but it is rather obvious from your ideas about teachers.

There is no evidence that an armed teacher could have stopped any of the school murderers, because none of the murdered teachers had the means to defend themselves.

You make dire predictions but none of them have happened where teachers are armed and no school that has armed teachers has been attacked; I wonder why?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 5 March 2018 9:23:16 AM
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//You didn't say that, but it is rather obvious from your ideas about teachers.//

Well that's pathetic. You're frigging hopeless, mate. If you're reduced to playing the man instead of the ball (and still getting it wrong even after your errors have been corrected), I really don't see the point of continuing the discussion because you obviously have no real arguments to support your position.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 9:36:58 AM
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Toni,

Well perhaps I have the wrong impression, but that's the impression that I get from someone who has to attempt to be humourous at the expense of dead teachers and pupils.

Paul,

I'd recommend a Smart pistol in a calibre of at least .38 Special, and as for arming teachers in Australian schools, well we haven't had a school shooting here and there is no point in being pre-emptive; is there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27520267
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 5 March 2018 10:57:36 AM
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//that's the impression that I get from someone who has to attempt to be humourous at the expense of dead teachers and pupils.//

Nobody is having a joke at the victims' expense. We're having a joke at the expense of idiots like you, and apparently you're not bright enough to tell the difference.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 11:38:36 AM
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"Nobody is having a joke at the victims' expense. We're having a joke at the expense of idiots like you, and apparently you're not bright enough to tell the difference."

Don't try and weasel out, Tiger.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 5 March 2018 2:49:55 PM
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//Don't try and weasel out, Tiger.//

What the hell are you talking about, you daft twat? If you can't comprehend simple English, that's not my problem. It's yours.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 6:28:36 PM
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As I said, Tiger.

Well, how could a school teacher save the kids from a killer?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 5 March 2018 6:49:16 PM
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//As I said, Tiger.

Well, how could a school teacher save the kids from a killer?//

Ahhhh... enlightenment dawns. I think I see the source of your confusion, Mr. Iceberg lettuce.

You feel that because the teacher in the Monty Python sketch is an absurd, overblown caricature that I was drawing a comparison between him and other teachers, and thus insinuating that they're all just as mental as John Cleese turning the mental up to eleven for comic purposes.

At this point, I considered explaining the actual joke to you. But then I decided not to, because spoilers. Are you familiar with the old analogy about explaining jokes and dissecting animals?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 11:18:50 PM
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Sorry, correction:

//Are you familiar with the old analogy about explaining jokes and dissecting animals?//

Should be:

\\Are you familiar with the old analogy about explaining jokes and vivisecting animals?\\

My bad.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 5 March 2018 11:45:24 PM
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Toni,

What joke did I not get?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 6 March 2018 7:15:28 AM
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//Toni,

What joke did I not get?//

At this point, I reconsidered explaining the actual joke to you. I still decided not to, because spoilers.

The analogy about explaining jokes and vivisections goes like this, Mr. Iceberg lettuce:

"Analyzing humor is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it."
-E.B. White

Although technically if the frog wasn't dead to start with, it's vivisection rather than dissection.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 6 March 2018 10:27:12 AM
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Tiger,

I assume that the joke has something to do with John Cleese?

If so I'll need an explanation as, aside from 'Faulty Towers', I'm not familiar with his work.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 6 March 2018 11:07:20 AM
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Some time has passed since the last sign of activity.

Well, no one could satisfactorily answer the question as to what school teachers could do to defend themselves from a killer in their school.
Those who argued that a teacher could have their pistol taken from them and that it could be used to kill were obviously arguing from a position of ignorance as Smart guns have been available for at least 50 years.

A Smart gun (for those who didn't know) is one that is electronically/magnetically/whatever, set-up so that only the owner or other designated person, can fire it.

This seems to be the latest:
http://www.thetrace.org/2017/03/new-armatix-smart-gun-law-enforcement/
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 March 2018 7:37:23 AM
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Issy,

Since the mass shooting at Pumpano Beach, 10 people have been shot dead in the US by random shooters along with 38 injured. In Detroit Michigan 4 people were shot dead at two locations including two people at a gas station, they were shot by a man while filling their car.

Just another day at the gunnie office, right Issy.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 8 March 2018 10:59:41 AM
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Paul,

Some people are doing something about it.

"TALLAHASSEE — After hours of emotional and often bitter debate, the Florida Senate voted 20-18 Monday to approve a school safety plan that allows some teachers and staff to carry guns in the classroom and increases the minimum age for gun purchases."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/05/florida-senate-votes-restrict-gun-sales-arm-teachers/397587002/
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 March 2018 12:20:24 PM
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Bloody hell what a dystopian this clown wants for us. Armed teachers in Aussie primary school class rooms.

Who can think of another thing which is quite s unAustralian as that. anyone else want to stump up to buy him a ticket to the states where he can live out those sick fantasies? I'm fine for a couple of hundred.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 8 March 2018 6:27:30 PM
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Steele,

When did he say that?

What would you recommend for a teacher who is suddenly threatened by an armed murderer in a schoolroom?

What could the teacher have that might save the teacher's life and the lives of the students?

Now don't be shy, give us the benefit of your wisdom; you never know, maybe the legislators in Florida might be swayed by your erudite observations.

Give it a go.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 March 2018 8:10:24 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Where did you say that indeed.

You keep posting this question and the only answer you are prepared to accept is arming all our primary school teachers. of course I may have got you completely wrong and if so feel free to enlighten us, otherwise piss off to the States.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 8 March 2018 8:52:43 PM
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Steele,

You are thick, we've been talking about the States, not Australia.

But what is your answer to the question?

You might enlighten all of us, even the Florida Legislature.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 March 2018 9:20:59 PM
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One of the 'good ole boys' down Alabamie way has shot dead one student, with another injured at a high school.

Issy, are you still considering my fantastic idea of armed 'Mr Whippy' vans. Why protect children with guns, only at schools, what about playgrounds, etc. We could give new meaning to the function of the 'Lollipop Lady' at the school crossings. The possibilities are endless.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 9 March 2018 3:25:28 AM
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Paul,

Why won't you answer the question?

Don't you have an answer either?

It's quite simple, as the teachers are in the front line, so to speak, and teachers have been murdered by armed nutters who have attacked schools, should the teachers not, at least, be given the option of defending themselves?

If you don't think that they should be allowed to defend themselves then say so, but if you think that they should, then how may they do so?
Now's your chance to enlighten us all.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 March 2018 8:40:38 AM
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Issy, you need to disarm the nutters, not arm the teachers. It is a sad indictment of a society if they find it necessary to arm the teachers of their children. What kind of signal does that send to the impressionable young people for their future.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 9 March 2018 9:34:42 AM
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Paul,

It tells the kids that their teacher cares and that if their school is attacked that there is a chance that they won't be killed.

That's a long term answer that you've given,
how are teachers going to have a chance in the short term?

You know, when they are in immediate danger?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 March 2018 10:01:28 AM
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Issy, this is Dodge City stuff, and I just can't ware it, there is no instant fix. Teachers are exactly that, teachers, not trained security people, and then there is the problem of rogue teachers. Handing out guns willy-nilly is opening a can of worms, America has to do something about the whole gun mentality. Until they do that, nothing will change.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 9 March 2018 10:55:02 AM
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Paul,

So you have no objection to teachers who are well trained and proficient in the use of pistols being armed and ready to defend themselves and their charges in the event of an attack?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 March 2018 11:34:21 AM
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Issy, what percent of US teachers are well trained and proficient in the use of pistols? And would it be compulsory for the well trained and proficient to carry a gun? Would they take it home at night, keep it on weekends and holidays etc? Please give details of this fantastic plan.

How many right wing nutters hold a gun licence?
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 9 March 2018 5:33:11 PM
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Paul,

"what percent of US teachers are well trained and proficient in the use of pistols?"

Haven't got any idea, but I'd imagine that those teachers who had served in the Armed forces would know how to use one.

"And would it be compulsory for the well trained and proficient to carry a gun?"

No compulsion, purely voluntary.

"Would they take it home at night, keep it on weekends and holidays etc?"

Of course, they would, unlike Australia, most US policemen are trusted to be armed off duty and civilians with concealed carry permits are allowed to be armed at all times.
And any US citizen, who is not a convicted felon, may carry a pistol or a long arm openly at any time, it's guaranteed by the Second Amendment.

"How many right wing nutters hold a gun licence?,"

Generally, there are no licences.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 March 2018 7:03:42 PM
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//Generally, there are no licences.//

Does that not bother you?

A man needs a licence to drive a car; in order to obtain that licence he must demonstrate that he can operate an automobile in a manner that is not likely to endanger the lives of others. He must demonstrate that he is proficient in the operation of an automobile, for a given value of proficient.

Surely it's reasonable to expectation that before be allowed to wield a firearm, he must at least demonstrate that he can operate it in a manner that is not likely to endanger the lives of others and be reasonably proficient in its use.

Is that unreasonable? I don't think that's unreasonable. Then again, I don't worship at the same church Mr. Iceberg lettuce does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je_EWam-MiA
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 9 March 2018 8:25:10 PM
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Tiger,

It doesn't bother me in the least, there is a licence for concealed carry of a pistol, with appropriate training etc.

There are no licences for long arms, apart from fully automatic weapons.

We modeled our laws in part on Canadian laws, Canada has now abandoned licencing of long arms as being an impractical waste of time and resources, and have abolished the relative firearms registry and destroyed all records.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 March 2018 9:39:44 AM
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On Sunday March 11th 2018 SBS will be showing
Michael Moore's documentary - "Bowling For
Columbine," which explores America's
predilection for gun ownership. The film will
be screened at 8.30pm.

Then at 10.40pm - "Gunned Down" will be shown.
This is an investigation into the NRA.

Both might be worth watching.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 10 March 2018 10:29:57 AM
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//It doesn't bother me in the least//

Why on Earth not? Would you be happy to have unlicensed drivers sharing the road with you?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 10 March 2018 10:34:57 AM
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Great doco, if you haven't seen it well worth a watch. Love MM's work,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC2QaWmat7A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY2PzzjO3zo&list=PLZbXA4lyCtqo9eWfXNHrarW1W9DLi0B2Z
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 10 March 2018 11:09:33 AM
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Tiger,

I'm sure that if you gave it some thought you would not compare a licence to drive a motor vehicle with a licence to use a firearm.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 March 2018 12:15:54 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

You said;

“You are thick, we've been talking about the States, not Australia.”

No we are talking about Australia because you want virtually every household in Australia to have the right to weaponise for 'self protection'. This is the type of gun culture you want for this country and the resultant shootings in schools is virtually a given. When that eventuates then you will be calling for the arming of our teachers here.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 10 March 2018 12:57:43 PM
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Foxy,

When you watch "Bowling for Columbine" watch how Charlton Heston magically changes the colour of his tie, and he doesn't miss a word.
(this version may have been further edited and you won't see the magic).

Of course, the film may have been cut and spliced for some reason and more than once..
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 March 2018 1:04:32 PM
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//I'm sure that if you gave it some thought you would not compare a licence to drive a motor vehicle with a licence to use a firearm.//

I've given it some thought. Allowing people to operate firearms without a license is a bloody stupid idea, so little wonder that you support it.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 10 March 2018 1:09:35 PM
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Issy, would they wear their big hooters in the shower? Would they take their big hooters to bed with them?

In the last 100 years or so, have you ever had to flash your big hooter to ward off a would-be type who was trying to have their way with you?

How about a serious answer about my Mr Whippy idea. What size 'Howitzer' would you recommend we mount on top of the vans? We need old blokes with plenty of spare time, and their own big hooters to ride shotgun on school days. What's ya doing Tuesdays between 9am and 3pm?

If I was back in my school days, I would love nothing better than to gaze out the classroom window during the afternoons arithmetic lesson. takeing my mind of that cute little thing in the pigtails across the room for a moment, and to be comforted at the sight of Borat at the wheel, and you in the passenger seat riding shotgun with your big hooter poking out the window in my direction. 'Greensleeves' blaring away at full blast, the Howitzer shelling the Kevie Crudd Memorial School Hall as you cruse by. Oh! the joy of it all, what did I miss.

p.s Does your old military uniform still fit? Just asking, wearing it would be of such comfort to the children.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 10 March 2018 2:33:19 PM
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Is Mise,

Let me understand you. So You've seen "Bowling
for Columbine," and the only thing
you noticed was the colour of Mr Heston's tie?

Why am I not surprised.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 10 March 2018 2:42:41 PM
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"Three hostages and a suspect are dead after a daylong standoff at a veterans home in Napa County, California, police said."

Issy, its time to arm the old folks!

How are you going on the Mr Whippy Van idea?
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 10 March 2018 4:54:52 PM
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Foxy,

Not the only thing, but doesn't the magical change of colour tell you anything?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 March 2018 5:15:06 PM
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Three dead and all Paul can do is try to score a point.

Tiger,

In case you've not noticed a driver's licence is not required to own a car, buy a car, nor is it required to drive a car.
Whereas a firearms licence is required to use a firearm anywhere, or to purchase one.

So the analogy is like your sick joke, way off.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 March 2018 5:20:50 PM
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Is Mise,

Enlighten us all. What does the magical change
of Mr Heston's tie tell you?
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 10 March 2018 6:22:36 PM
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Foxy,

It tells me that the film was cut and spliced for some reason, some of the footage was left out.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 March 2018 6:34:47 PM
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Is Mise,

The fact that you think the film was cut and spliced
is merely your assumption. I guess that I shall have to
watch it for myself and see if I come to the same conclusion.
BTW - did you know that at the time of that interview
Mr Heston had been diagnosed with Alzheimers?
So perhaps all round the interview may not have been a
fair one. I'll have to wait and see.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 11 March 2018 10:18:54 AM
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Issy, you are the one that advocates guns for all, both here and in the US. You see the US as the perfect model for a gun toting society, which Australia should become. You make a mockery of gun deaths by selfishly refusing to accept any type of gun control. Happy with mass shootings, as long as it does not impinge on your perverse pleasurable pastime.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 11 March 2018 12:03:45 PM
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Paul,

"You make a mockery of gun deaths by selfishly refusing to accept any type of gun control."

Not so, you've read where I said that I adhere to and respect Australia's gun laws, even though some of them are downright stupid.

"Happy with mass shootings, as long as it does not impinge on your perverse pleasurable pastime."

No, Paul, that's the Greens who can't wait for the next tragedy to push their wheelbarrow, can't even wait for the blood to dry.
However, seeing as you are so knowledgeable, how could a teacher, faced by an armed murderer, save self and the children?

Foxy, Toni and Stelle, you can answer too, don't be shy, your combined knowledge and sagasity could shew US Legislators the way forward.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 11 March 2018 4:17:56 PM
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Issy, I and others have pointed out yhat there is no quick fix to the systemic problem the US has now with out of control gun deaths. It is utter nonsense to believe that the simplistic approach of arming even more civilians to counter an already over armed population would work, Dodge City nonsense. Yes, it may prevent an isolated nutter sometime somewhere, but at what cost. I see even more innocents being wasted through accidents, and in some cases misadventure from rough teachers, or the wrong person getting their hands on a state issued gun.

America now needs to follow countries like Australia and introduce truly effective gun control laws, until they do, mass deaths will continue.

Good to see you support our gun laws. You must believe that without such laws there would be a problem. Full circle, we are now back to the situation in the USA, where they don't have such tough gun laws.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 11 March 2018 7:23:42 PM
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//In case you've not noticed a driver's licence is not required... to drive a car.//

O... kay.

If I know you, you'll have some daft hair-splitting excuse for this claim like licences only being required on public roads (i.e. where the public drive). I look forward to it.

But I'm already convinced, we should do away with them. Think of all the joy it would bring! Young hotheads itching to get behind the wheel without any dumb driving lessons, because, like, what can some old person teach them that you can't just look up on your phone, duh? And imagine a world where you never have to worry about being done for dangerous driving, because they can't revoke the licence you don't have. It'll be awesome, like Mad Max but with fewer freaks.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 11 March 2018 7:41:32 PM
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//So the analogy is like your sick joke, way off.//

What sick joke? Is that the joke that you didn't get, and couldn't cajole me to explain for you despite your incessant whining?

Does a joke necessarily become offensive if you don't get it and can't get anyone to explain it for you? I have to say I find that an odd notion: until somebody has explained to you what 'taking tea with the parson' actually involves, you just know that it's kind of smutty and it all seems like harmless fun. It's only after you've had the details explained that it comes disturbingly offensive.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 11 March 2018 7:57:52 PM
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Toni, you can drive in Vanuatu on the public road without a licence, well you can't, but you can. Should see the condition of their vehicles, not good for a panel beater, nobody needs one, do your own.
They have road rules to, but when I asked a driver not wearing his seat belt, do you have a problem with getting a ticket, He said "No". I said "Why is that?" Well, we have no road policia mana, that's good. The main road rule is you take your life in your hands every time you get in a vehicle with someone, or behind the wheel.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 11 March 2018 8:14:35 PM
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Toni,

"If I know you, you'll have some daft hair-splitting excuse for this claim like licences only being required on public roads (i.e. where the public drive). I look forward to it."

Nothing hair splitting at all, a licence is only required to drive on public roads and there are exceptions to that, in some cases a competent person may drive on the public roads, legally, without a licence.

Not so with guns, so any analogy falls flat.

Given the subject under discussion any joke is tasteless.

Paul,

"..., but at what cost. I see even more innocents being wasted through accidents, and in some cases misadventure from rough teachers, or the wrong person getting their hands on a state issued gun."

Didn't you read the answer that I gave you earlier?

Smart guns overcome those objections, with smart guns there are no accidents.

"Issy, I and others have pointed out yhat there is no quick fix to the systemic problem the US has now with out of control gun deaths."

I'm not talking about a quick fix but what an individual teacher can do to stop a murderer.
You and others seem to be quite happy that teachers should have no chance to defend themselves.
You all know that the one thing that could save them is something that would enable them to kill their attacker but you don't have the guts to admit it.

Thankfully more and more US Legislators are coming to realize that a teacher should have a chance to defend their self and the kids
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 11 March 2018 8:33:52 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

You really need to put a sock in it mate. You keep banging on about a poor bloody teacher you have set up with having to defend against some psychopath with a gun which has come into his hands because of the type of society you want for us. When we give you answer after answer you keep going because none of them satisfy your sick agenda.

You want guns to be allowed in virtually all Australian homes for self defense. I am watching the excellent Bowling for Colombine and remembering the six year old who went to his kindergarten and shot and killed a little girl.

You are a dangerous selfish person.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 11 March 2018 9:16:18 PM
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Steele,

Of course, I keep on about it because no one, yourself included, has answered the question.

It is really very simple, how do you think that a teacher, faced with a murderer trying to enter the classroom, could defend their self and the children.
Not ten years down the track, but immediately.

Do you really think that no Australian should be allowed to have anything for self-defence?

Have you ever faced anyone who was pointing a loaded gun at you and had every intention of killing you?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 11 March 2018 9:50:06 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Okay, I'm a sucker for a clown.

I think she should press the red button on her desk which will drop down a bullet proof security screen, much like those deployed in banks, thus protecting herself and her students from the psychopath who has been weaponised by people like yourself.

Will that do?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 11 March 2018 10:12:29 PM
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Steele,

Yes, that will do because all that I've been asking for is your solution, and you've given one; not much good though if she is at the blackboard or out in a corridor.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 11 March 2018 11:08:08 PM
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Is Mise,

I watched Michael Moore's film last night -
"Bowling for Columbine," and
could not help wondering why don't so many
guns in the United States make it a much
safer place? Every man and his dog seems to
have a gun in that country.

As for the colour of Mr Heston's tie that had
you concerned? To tell you the truth I did not
even notice the colour of his tie. I was so
absorbed in the film itself. And the entire
awfulness of what was happening in the country.
I hope this never comes to Australia.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 12 March 2018 7:31:32 AM
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Foxy,

So you watched Moore's great ego trip, good for you; now you ought to look up some of the criticisms of the film for a balanced outlook.

Moore saw an opportunity to make money out of a tragedy and he grabbed the chance and he succeeded.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 12 March 2018 8:32:36 AM
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Charlton Heston didn't like it, not enough shooting action. Should have been a bit more of the Dodge City stuff, then he would have enjoyed it. Issy are you in that same boat?
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 12 March 2018 10:33:08 AM
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Paul,

"Bowling for Columbine" is prejudicial old hat and has become boring.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 12 March 2018 11:11:28 AM
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Just a thought, Stelle, I have heard that Australian Banks no longer use fast-acting safety shields as a criminal was injured by one and the Banks feared that they might be sued for personal injuries.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 12 March 2018 12:17:46 PM
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Is Mise,

I've read all the criticisms of the film.
And I still found it daunting watching it
again.

Why isn't America a much safer place even
though people there are armed so strongly?
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 12 March 2018 12:41:12 PM
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Foxy,

The US is a much safer place since people have been encouraged to carry concealed weapons and the crime rate continues to fall.
This is, of course, disputed but crime rates didn't go up as opponents of CC forecast.

"Using the FBI numbers, the violent crime rate fell 48% between 1993 and 2016. Using the BJS data, the rate fell 74% during that span. (For both studies, 2016 is the most recent full year of data.) It’s important to note that the FBI reported a 7% increase in the violent crime rate between 2014 and 2016, including a 20% rise in the murder rate —from 4.4 to 5.3 murders per 100,000 residents."
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

What is indisputable is that the crime rate has fallen and the number of firearms in civilian hands has gone up.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 12 March 2018 2:09:33 PM
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Issy, America is a society that lives and breaths fear. Fear of their neighbour, fear of the rest of the world. always fearing someone is out to get them. If its not the communists, its the terrorists, who are hell bent on destroying their perfect world, a world built on fear, so they are lead to believe. Griped with huge internal social and economic problems, problems between rich and poor, black and white, there is little alternative to the siege mentality they suffer from. Americans will continue to arm themselves for "self protection", as they see it, as long as they perpetuate the injustices within their society, nothing will ever change.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 12 March 2018 9:47:53 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Why do you think they have never armed tellers in banks?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 12 March 2018 10:57:56 PM
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Steele,

I and a mate used to have a nice little bit of business doing an annual service on the pistols that banks had for their tellers.

Except for the then Bank of NSW (now Westpac) who had their own armourer.
This was a very desirable job and a good mate retired from the army and got it.
His domain was the workshop and pistol range atop the Martin Place branch (actually in George St). I used to visit it regularly for a bit of informal competition

"Why do you think they have never armed tellers in banks?"

In light of the above, you tell me!!
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 7:07:26 AM
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Paul,

Yes, and the Twin Towers attack was a Government Conspiracy to keep the people in line.

Does the Tooth Fairy still visit you?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 7:39:43 AM
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Dear is Mise,

Well that was news to me.

I had been referencing this article;

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-bank-school-gun-safety-comparison-2018-2?r=US&IR=T

And did not realise we had once armed tellers in Australia.

Which begs the question, why did we stop?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 8:21:44 AM
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Steele,

Probably because the risk to tellers was considered to be unacceptable and tellers were no longer prepared to risk their lives to save mere money.
There was also the banks' liability, particularly if a customer was shot.
In the overall picture, it was better to let the money go, what the robbers took was insignificant compared to bank profits and could be recouped by a minuscule tweak in bank charges.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 8:41:28 AM
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Issy, the US government did not attack the Twin Towers directly, but you should read the history of Osama Bin Laden and his relationship with the CIA. Then you might not be so quick to jump in with silly statements.

Here's a link for you from NBC News on the subject, hardly a radical lefty media outlet.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3340101/t/bin-laden-comes-home-roost/#.WqcEGuhubIU

You reap what you sow.

Issy, could I be your campaign manager for the next election? When you run for the job of Sheriff of Dodge City. You could run on a platform of shoot first, ask no questions later.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 9:03:34 AM
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Paul,

Are you happy with such a policy?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 13 March 2018 4:25:32 PM
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Issy, you're the one who has to sell your shoot first ask no questions later gun policy to the voters, not me. Tell the truth you would love to be the sheriff of Dodge City.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 14 March 2018 4:15:03 AM
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Paul,

While I agree with you that gun laws should be maintained, I don't agree that any particular group should be prevented from advocating their political opinion. It is the democratic right of people to advocate for what they believe in. Applying this to one interest group could then be applied to others such as Getup, the unions etc.

Secondly, after Socialist Russia invaded Afghanistan because it was largely in the US sphere of influence, they swiftly put down much of the resistance with typical brutality. Initially, the resistance movement was not particularly Islamic in nature and this only emerged later.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 14 March 2018 2:39:45 PM
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OVER 1,000,000 CHILDREN PROTEST IN THE U.S.A.

"PARKLAND, Fla. — They solemnly spilled onto the high school football field, holding signs protesting gun violence and wearing shirts that read "March for our lives." They waved at a crowd of onlookers who had gathered to show support."

Is it going to take a mass movement by children in the United States to convince the legislators that their pandering to vested interests on gun control is totally wrong.

Like the protests/struggle that finally convinced their politicians that the US involvement in the Vietnam War was wrong, it may take years before they bend to the wishes of the vast majority and introduce some sanity into their gun laws, and give children and others, the protection they desperately need from these insane gunnies!

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/national-school-walkout-marks-month-parkland-mass-shooting-n856386
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 16 March 2018 8:57:47 AM
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Paul,

It was your suggestion.

I thought that you might have had an answer to the question of what a teacher could do to overcome the threat of a murderer loose in a school; sad to say you, and others can't answer the question and we all, and the US legislators are left to wallow in the dark.

Some would do the obvious and allow the teacher the means of defence, how many lives may have been saved if this had been the option from the beginning?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 17 March 2018 6:01:42 PM
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//how many lives may have been saved if this had been the option from the beginning?//

Not as many as if they'd had reasonable gun control measures from the beginning.

Why are you so radically against solutions which aren't just bandaid solutions?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 17 March 2018 6:07:34 PM
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Toni,

I'm not, long term solutions are fine but I'm interested in hearing from the pundits who have a solution for the next teacher faced by a murdered, or one intent on murder in their school.

It's no good saying ban all guns because that could take five hundred years; what's needed is a quick and certain manner in ending the next attack.

Got any ideas that can be immediately implemented?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 18 March 2018 5:41:40 PM
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"It's no good saying ban all guns because that could take five hundred years;" if you and Charlton Heston had your way it would take a lot longer than that.

Its US gunnies like you who are responsible for the problem in the first place. Now your are offering a short term, simplistic, jackass solution for something you are responsible for. Not only are you offering a useless solution, you are trying to load the responsibility for the problem onto others, teachers.

US gunnies should fess up that they take full responsibility for the carnage in US schools. Everyday that goes by without the necessary strong legislation required to protect their citizens from the demented gunnies, is a day wasted. Soon reduce that 500 years of yours to six months.

Malcolm, an email attachment with the Aussie legislation to The Donald. please! The Donald could have that legislation this morning, have the Congress passing it into law this afternoon. Start gun control measures tomorrow morning at Charlton Heston's house first!
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 March 2018 6:47:22 AM
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Paul,

Why are you so against a teacher having a fair chance; would it spoil your Green ambulance chasing?

Five hundred years is a fair estimate, for to attempt your solution would mean civil war.

There is only one way that a teacher faced by a murderer could save self and children and that is to be armed with an efficient means of killing the murderer, you may not like it but you ought to have enough guts to support those Legislators in the US who are prepared to give a person on the front line a chance.

Perhaps you could ask Bob Brown (the Green one) for a solution, he was famous for suggesting that Australian front line troops should be taught 'Anger Management' as part of their infantry skills.

Imagine the headline, "TEACHER SHOOTS GUNMAN: Saves Children".

The Greens and Gun Control Australia couldn't get any mileage out of that.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 March 2018 10:15:22 AM
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Imagine the headline, "TEACHER SHOOTS SCHOOLCHILDREN" then Shoots Himself. I don't know why you Gunnies haven't gone the whole hog and demanded that the schoolchildren be armed as well.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 March 2018 6:56:05 PM
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There is a certain viciousness about someone who could throw a lifebuoy to a drowning person but who would choose not to do so.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 19 March 2018 9:04:50 PM
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Issy, in all fairness I will concede that with the on going saga of regular mass killings in US schools, that your headline is a possibility at some stage in the future. But are you willing to concede that there is also a distinct possibility that my headline, or similar, is equally possible? The possibly of things, accidentally or purposely, going wrong with having armed teachers is simply far too great to countenance.

This is not about protecting school children at all. It is about offering a so called solution, whilst at the same time making sure the selfish rights of gunnies to carry on as they have in the past is protected.

Why woun't you talk about fair dinkum gun control in the US? Because that would mean the selfish gunnies would have to give up their arsenals of M16's, and we don't want that, now do we!

Is what you state to be the effective way of controlling outrageous violence in society, that is meeting armed force with armed force, the policy of your Shooters and Hooters Party in Australia? It may well be their closet policy, like so much of their other nonsense.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 March 2018 9:39:14 PM
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There is a certain viciousness about someone who would see children die at the hands of a fellow Gunnie, so they can carry on their own selfish pursuits with guns uninterrupted.
Like the coffin chasing Shooters and Hooters!
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 March 2018 9:44:53 PM
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Paul,

How could a teacher protect self and the children when faced by an armed murderer in a school?

We all know what has happened when unarmed teachers faced those intent on murder; having no possible means of defence they were murdered.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 20 March 2018 9:45:36 AM
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