In the light of the High Court decision that a number of MP’s were elected illegally, Greens leader Richard Di Natale has called for an audit of all Federal politicians citizenship status. Given the cloud that is still hanging over the heads of many parliamentarians I would think the Coalition and Labor would welcome a chance to clear the air on this issue. Not so, both the major parties are opposed to any such investigation. The Coalition in particular who have lost their majority with the demise of Barnaby Joyce. Given that the President of the Senate, Liberal Stephan Parry was only flushed out at the eleventh hour, it begs the question how many other illegals are hiding under tables and in closets when it comes to their right to sit in Parliament.

Dear Paul,

Why have a witch-hunt and disrupt our parliament
even further over an archaic law that should be
removed. And hopefully will be - the sooner the
better.

Does no one else find it rather disturbing that we are
allowing an archaic British law dictate the functioning
of our parliament over dual citizenship while at the
same time we have a British born Head of State.

Why waste more of the Parliament's time? The Greens clowns just want to stir now that their ride on SSM is nigh over.

Work on the 'wicked' problems instead. Such as retirees and low income groups being forced out of inner urban areas to suit Chinese billionaire developers building expensive high rise apartments. See here,

'High-density living worse for environment than suburban sprawl, new study shows'

http://www.domain.com.au/news/highdensity-living-worse-for-environment-than-suburban-sprawl-new-study-shows-20171031-gzcdkw/?utm_source=email&utm_campaign=Insider_02112017&utm_medium=email&utm_content=none

What about that mass immigration that lobs in the major metropolitan cities and costs taxpayers billions? But the Greens favour 'Open Door' immigration to 'solve' overpopulation in the Third World. More queues for Centrelink in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.

The Government's own Craig Kelly also believes that their should be an audit of ALL politicians. Abbott is not the only dissident in the Liberal Party.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is always spraying about non-Labor dual-citizen politicians. She must be pretty thick not to know that people are wondering how it is that Labor seemingly has no ineligible members in its ranks. It beggars belief that there are not some.

I note that Foxy has declared it 'archaic' to have pride in Australia by insisting on complete loyalty to the country. Her total unreality and ignorance of right and wrong is mind-boggling.

It is archaic for people to hang on to citizenship of countries that they felt compelled to leave.

Leave it alone, here come the racist calls.

Scenario.
A Muslim, an Arab, a Hindu whatever come to Australia and get citizenship, because most ethnic minorities tend to congregate in the same area they create a voting block that can be exploited. That block can be used to elect someone that is totally not representative of Australian as a whole country.

Citizenship can be bought.
Sure others can come up with other reasons.

There is a public groundswell for an audit of all politicians. The only people against such an audit are politicians. Again, our undemocratic duds are interested only in themselves and they are doing everything they can to thwart the will of the people.

Foxy,

You touch on an interesting dilemma: if we have British Head of State, i.e. the Queen, to whom all parliamentarians must swear allegiance through the Governor-General in order gain their authority to rule, as they've been elected to do, does this mean that we won't be rid of this problem until we're a Republic ?

Another thing: what if some foreign government declares (maybe some already have) that the children of a citizen and their descendants, will forever be citizens of that country ? Isn't that a breach of other countries' sovereignty ?

Joe,

Dear Joe,

Exactly.

These points do need to be discussed.

It is archaic to have an old British law disrupting our
government. And how can someone like Barnaby Joyce who
was born in Tamworth Base Hospital, whose great grnadmother
was born in Tamworth, whose great grandfather was born in
Glen Innes. And Barnaby served in the Australian Army
Reserves and somehow he's not considered to be an
Australian?

Foxy - It appears to me you do not get it.

YES Joyce is an Australian BUT he is also the citizen of another country.

There is no question about that.

BUT

Countries can call upon there citizens where ever they are.

Countries can command and order there citizens to do things where ever they are.

While they can be commanded from another country they do not have the ability to be 100% Australian citizens.

Paul,

Just picked up on your post on my Pyne/GetUp! post. Response left.

//I note that Foxy has declared it 'archaic' to have pride in Australia by insisting on complete loyalty to the country.//

Yeah, but which country?

'God Save the Queen' (of Britain) was our national anthem until 1984 (RIP, Sir Ninian Stephen), and it wasn't such a long time ago that a we used to celebrate Empire Day. Loyalty to Australia and only Australia is a fairly recent idea; in the old days it would have been considered un-Australian at the least, and outright treason at the worst, to not hold allegiance to mother Britain. Why do you think so many ANZACS and Canucks enlisted in the Great War, which never threatened their shores?

So the only people with enough guaranteed legitimacy are the pure blood indigenous.
They're getting their land back in the end simply because there can be no question of a conjoined citizenship is lurking in their closet.
What an effing joke....only in Australia....
and everyone wonders why the world is laughing
I gotta get a safer chair...I keep falling off when I laugh

Joe,

There is no 'problem'; it is Australian Constitutional law, not some "old British law" as poor, confused Foxy claims. It can only be changed by referendum, and that's never going to happen.

As for your own apparent confusion about the Queen and the Governor-General. The Australia Act took care of that a long time ago.

Constitutional lawyer, George Williams thinks that the High Court decision on the dual citizenship fiasco was geared to a black letter approach to the law and a 'leaning away' from activism. He also said that it was necessary to have an audit because he suspected that a number of other MPs would be ineligible under Section 44 if their dual citizenship was disclosed.

Perhaps Foxy could try out her "discussion" skills with Professor Williams, who is a Leftish gentleman who clearly doesn't let his politics get in the way of Constitutional Law, unlike some.

BTW I believe the High Courts finding was unanimous.

Anyone who is now found to be a dual citizen should be deported. To Manus!
They know they are illegal and any more like Parry should be summarily dealt with as liars and criminal law breakers.

I would settle for having dual citizenship abolished for everybody, mikk, politicians or not. It is a bad idea, which makes the loyalty of Australia of those with it doubtful. Many of them are probably using the citizenship of a foreign country to get them out of here if we were ever in danger. Either be Australian without conditions, or bugger off.

"When the Australian Constitution was drafted in the
1890s, allegiance was given to the Crown, not to a
territory. We all shared the status of British
subjects, and a person born in Australia could be
elected to parliament in Britain, New Zealand, Canada,
and other places, and vice versa. There was no need
for renunciation or denunciation of allegiance."

This was taken from the link given below.
It explains further for anyone who wants to learn more.
(There's also plenty more on the web about the history
of Section 44i of the Australian Constitution).

http://mrbbaskerville.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/ahistorical-history-on-the-run-section-44i-of-the-australian-constitution/

ttbn, you seem to have a rather archaic notion of loyalty What exactly do you think it means?

PhilipS,

"While they can be commanded from another country they do not have the ability to be 100% Australian citizens"

Not in all cases, if in any.
I hold dual citizenship, and the country of that other citizenship stipulates that when in my birth country, Australia, that they claim no jurisdiction nor can I appeal to them for any assistance within said birth country.

I'm really disappointed with Labor on this issue. A few weeks ago they did a lot of bragging about how their party thoroughly checks the citizenship of all their candidates. But now they're opposing an audit of the citizenship of all MPs, even though that has the potential to bring down the government!

WTF have they got to hide?

If the underlying issue is divided loyalty, it may be more useful to check where financial interests lie. Someone with substantial overseas holdings can probably get residency easily regardless, and someone with significant transfers through tax havens has no significant loyalty to anything at all.

Rusty.

Spray for the day;

I note some of our more conservative posters have gone very quite on this since the heady days, not long ago, when it only involved a couple of "Greenies". At that time they were baying for blood, demanding the odious pair be sacrificed at the 'Alter of the Constitution' in the name of decency. What a bunch of hypocrites!

When it comes to hypocrisy leoj is a past master. Started a thread called "The Remarkable Mr Ludlum". Some quotes from the "Remarkable Mr Leoj"

<<it is made plain in simple words in the Candidates Handbook and in application forms. It will be interesting who steps forward to shield and excuse, or even criticise the rules. Or to dump on the publicly spirited whistleblower, who should get an Australian Honour for acting to protect the Constitution and democracy.>>
Posted by leoj, Sunday, 16 July 2017 5:58:08 PM

<<I believe that the credibility of the federal Parliament will again suffer. Even more so if Ludlum isn't immediately refunded his contributions to Parliamentary superannuation and instead is allowed to retain and claim those 'Golden Handshake' benefits.>>
Posted by leoj, Monday, 17 July 2017 11:59:14 AM

<<Ludlum had a jolly good ride>> Posted by leoj, Monday, 17 July 2017 5:06:53 PM

Now, what do we now get from this forum hypocrite, He has done a 180 on the subject;

<< Why waste more of the Parliament's time? The Greens clowns just want to stir now that their ride on SSM is nigh over.>>

Posted by leoj, Thursday, 2 November 2017 10:12:41 AM

My first comment on the subject;

<<Politics is a rough and tumble affair, Scott has been shown no quarter by his political opponents, nor should he expect it. He will just have to cop it on the chin.>>
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 18 July 2017 5:41:38 AM

cont

cont

The forever wrong Shadow Minister is another. a lot to say about the "Greenies", Has nothing to say about the Liberal fool Stephen Parry who was hiding his citizenship under a rock until things fot too hot! And Shadow are you still crowing that Barnyard Barney has nothing to worry about?

The there is the Remarkable Mr Turnball's

"Obviously Senator Ludlam's oversight is a pretty remarkable one when you think about it - he's been in the Senate for so long," Mr Turnbull said.

in the light of that does Turnball's want that goose Barnyard Barney back as his Deputy Dog?

Not all Conservatives have been so hypocritical on this. The only genuine exception has been ttbn, who has been most consistent with his opinions. I don't always agree with you forum buddy, but thumbs up on this one.

A few candidates for dual-citizen vetting: (suggested by Andrew Bolt 1/11/17)

Penny Wong, b. Malaysia
Julia Banks Greek father
Tanya Plibersek Slovenian parents
Tony Pasin
Tony Zappia b. Calabria
Susan Lamb British father
Maria Vamvakinou 'proudly Greek'

Why will these politicians not set our minds at rest by revealing whether or not they have dual-citizenship through birth or inheritance.

A few candidates for dual-citizen vetting: (suggested by Andrew Bolt 1/11/17)

Penny Wong, b. Malaysia
Julia Banks Greek father
Tanya Plibersek Slovenian parents
Tony Pasin
Tony Zappia b. Calabria
Susan Lamb British father
Maria Vamvakinou 'proudly Greek,

Why will these politicians not set our minds at rest by revealing whether or not they have dual-citizenship through birth or inheritance.

7 news this minute. Labor will support an audit of politicians in the dual-citizenship saga.

ttbn. Andy 'Beat Up' Bolt left off the Hungarian Josh Frydenberg and the German Eric Abetz. In the latest revelation it has been revealed several members of the government knew about Parry's citizenship concerns long before he came out of the closet, and put his hands up.

Turnbull's still resisting an audit and yabbering about a witch hunt, then Labor says they will support an audit. They are really playing him, making him look like a useless tool. Frydenberg. He and Turnbull screeching innocence like girls. Fair chance we will find that Frydenberg is actually a citizen of Mars in the next couple of days.

Anyone with one Irish grandparent is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, even if that grandparent was born in the occupied territory of what is called, erroneously, Northern Ireland.
This is automatic and if one's parent was registered at an Irish Embassy, in the Book of Foreign Births then one is entitled to citizenship which takes it further another generation.

Any politician with an Irish name ought to do some serious checking.

The experts have ruled on the application of the relevant section of the Constitution, the rest of the politicians should welcome an audit unless they have something to hide and if they do have something to hide then that can only be that they are ineligible to be in Parliament.

Elizabeth II is an Australian by virtue of being Queen of Australia.

Is Mise,

Glad you mentioned the "Queen of Australia", because that is what she is as far as our connection with her goes. Most of the anti-monarchy mob don't know this, always rabbiting on about the 'English Queen'.

The more this citizenship farce goes on, the more reason there is to have a complete ban on dual-citizenship; or, people should stay where they were born.

Is Mise, Ttbn,

Are you suggesting that the Queen is dual-citizen ? Perhaps she is also a German citizen, given Germany's 'blood and soil' stance ? She didn't also take her husband's Greek citizenship when they married, by any chance ?

But surely this notion in many countries, that the children of one of their citizens are thereby citizens, unto eternity ? It's citizens all the way down ? Surely that intrudes on the sovereignty of other countries ?

Joe

"Surely that intrudes on the sovereignty of other countries ?"

Of course it does, and that is what is happening in Australia where we stupidly tolerate dual-citizenship. It intrudes and cheapens Australia.

But it makes life easier for those of us fortunate enough to have dual citizenship, no visas for instance in many places.
As the Constitution recognizes dual citizenship then no law of the Australian Parliament can negate that, the only way is by referendum.

The solution is for politicians, or aspirants, to make sure that they are clear to stand for election; not an onerous task one would think.

//Are you suggesting that the Queen is dual-citizen ? Perhaps she is also a German citizen, given Germany's 'blood and soil' stance ?//

And Canadian and New Zealandish. I reckon there might be more support for a republic if people knew our head of state was a bloody Kiwi.

//But it makes life easier for those of us fortunate enough to have dual citizenship, no visas for instance in many places.//

Fun Fact: Her Majesty doesn't require a passport to travel.

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-the-queen-doesnt-need-a-passport-2017-4?IR=T

Is Mise

“... the Constitution recognizes dual citizenship...” (Is Mise)

Does the Constitution actually mention dual citizenship anywhere apart from Section 44? Try as I may, I can't find anything but the current wrangle about politicians and dual citizenship. All I could find is this from Wikipedia:

“With effect from 4 April 2002, there are no restrictions (under Australian law) on Australians holding the citizenship of another country.
Prior to 4 April 2002, it was still possible for Australians in some circumstances to hold dual citizenship, including:
those born in Australia who automatically acquired another citizenship at birth;
migrants naturalising in Australia, provided their former country did not revoke their citizenship;
children born overseas to Australian parents who automatically acquired the citizenship of their country of birth (e.g. the U.S. or Canada) as well as Australian citizenship by descent”

So, there are no restrictions on dual citizenship. But, how was it enabled in the first place? I can't see the writers of the Constitution putting in anything about dual citizenship those days. I don't remember any changes to the Constitution. We were all British subjects up to 1949.

If it's not in the Constitution, then it has to be an Act of Parliament (Immigration Act 2007, I think is the latest) and, if that is so, the law an be changed by parliament, without reference to the people.

Not surprised by the deadly silence on the issue, I have continued looking and have come to the conclusion that the Constitution does not recognise dual citizenship; dual citizenship is not even mentioned in the Constitution, in so many words, simply because the people writing it would not have dreamed of anything so daft being permitted by politicians whose stupidity and corruption they could never have imagined.

Citizenship is governed by the Australian Citizenship Act, which was amended by a Bill in 2002, which landed us with the current stupid situation which has some Australians are trotting around proclaiming that they are Italian, Greek, Hottentot, and so on.

The up to date Act, bodgied up by the Howard Government, is the Australian Citizenship Act 2007. We should be very, very pleased that the bastards cannot alter the Constitution without our permission.

ttbn,

"Does the Constitution actually mention dual citizenship anywhere apart from Section 44?"

The fact that Sec, 44 mentions it means that it exists and that such existence is recognized and is legal, the Constitution does not ban dual citizenship but establishes it as a bar to membership of Parliament.

Just for fun, how many MPs get a Government paid pension?

"44. Any person who -
(i.) ....
(ii.) ....
(iii.) .... or
(iv.) Holds any office of profit under the Crown, or any pension payable during the pleasure of the Crown out of any of the revenues of the Commonwealth: or
(v.) ....

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives."

I was thinking of ex-members of the Services, but their pensions may not be ".... during the pleasure of the Crown".

If you read the email notifications mindly sent by Graham, you would have seen a post from Sinclair Davidson on Catallaxy Files showing just how ignorant is senior minister, Mattias Corman about having an audit of politicians citizenship status, and of the powers and purpose of the High Court.

It shows that one-time U.S vice-president, Spiro Agnew, isn't the only politician "unable to walk and chew gum at the ame time".

Is this the end of the Turnballs govt? With a number of MP's looking dodgy, one by-election loss will see the end of Turnballs. A general election and a Labor govt with Dill Shortass as the new PM. Xmas is not that far off!

How can a country intrude on, and dictate, the status of citizens of another country ? Just suppose, say, that Tajikstan declared that all people of the world were hereby Tajikis, unto the Nth generation, and declared that that universal Tajiki citizenship status was irrevocable ? What's to stop it ?

Surely, if someone is born here and has never, in any word or deed, done anything to favour another country, then they are, if you like, de facto citizens only of Australia ? Is that amazingly naive or what ? How can another country intrude on the sovereign powers of Australia, sort of reach over its shoulder, and declare an Australian citizen to be the citizen of another country ? Doesn't this breach the sovereign powers of the Australian government ? God, I'm so ashamed to be so naive.

Ttbn,

I always thought that quote was by L. B. Johnson, about Gerald Ford, and that it as a bit more indelicate, more to the effect that "That bastard is so dumb, he can't fart and chew gum at the same time." He was probably right.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Paul,

It's not looking good for the Turnbull government.
One disaster after another - from the chaos of
energy policy to the inertia on housing, from
the unpopularity of Simon Birmingham's education
reform to the rejection of the Uluru Statement, the
government has not done well, and let's not mention
the PM's own policy disaster - the slow moving wreck
of the National Broadband Network. And now to top it
all off - we have the expensive same-sex marriage survey,
Manus Island humanitarian crisis, and the rolling crisis
of MP eligibility under Section 44 of the Constitution.

I don't envy his job at the moment. And I bet he's really
looking forward to his summer break. Which for him on his
return could mean he won't have a job.

Paul,

The end of the Turnbull government started from the minute he stabbed Abbott in the back. Since then, he has increased debt, global warming garbage and costs, electricity prices- you name it, he has stuffed up like no other PM -ever. Bill the Dill will be our next PM, with all the horrors that entails.

Turnbull has ended the Liberal Party, too. No party can have the huge differences of Left and Right in it and survive; it is a three ring circus now: conservative, hayseed Nationals, and a copy of Labor, with the Pynes, Birminghams and Brandis's. I doubt that the Coalition wiil ever recover

A few more points from Andrew Bolt as to why Turnbull and the government is finished:

Turnbull has made the government unelectable “under any leader” (So Bolt has even stopped barracking for Abbott)

“...the Liberals are now branded as an unprincipled rabble standing for nothing but themselves.”

“... being Prime Minister was all he (Turnbull) ever wanted, and too bad if it ended in tears for everyone else”

The “cover up” on Senator Parry.

Pigheadedness of citizenship crises.

Stupid, incorrect comments on High Court's anticipated dealing with Joyce.

Refuses a public audit on dual nationality politicians, which:

Makes it look as though he is “running a protection racket for an illegitimate government.

Cory Bernardi believes that there is growing support for parliament to be suspended while the citizenship scandal is resolved. There is certainly some evidence for that in the media, and it would be one way to bring our hopeless politicians to their senses - or to what little bit of sense they have.

Re Cory Bernadi: he is on a list of 32 'suspects' in the dual citizen story presented by ABC Online today. If you can manage to stir your stumps to read about these 32 politicians, you might be as pissed-off as I am by those who claim to have renounced citizenship of foreign countries but who REFUSE TO PRODUCE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE OF THE CLAIMS. What an arrogant mob of people we have elected!

" ... Turnbull seems destined to be cut down by his arrogance", writes Janet Albrechtsen in 'The Australian'. She was referring to his "I've never had more fun in my life" comment from last week, among other things. Turnbull trumpeted about the "incredible sloppiness" and neglect of two Green Senators revealed as dual citizens, but refused to hold an audit of other politicians who might not be as honest as the two Greens.

"His ego seemed to block an ability to see what voters saw" (Albrechtsen). And she is right. Turnbull trues to bluff and bullshite rather than do the right thing. He has to go, and take his terminally ill party with him, no matter how bad the alternative is. He has turned Australia into a circus.