Issy, try unzipping the zipper next time, you might find you are more comfortable, and a bit dryer, for the rest of the day.

Paul,

People, not the state, should be providing for themselves or they become slaves of the state, which is where we are steadily heading. Public services are essential, but the most essential of public services are being sold off by the state because politicians are no longer comfortable with scrutiny and accountability; the state will eventually retain only those departments which give them power over us: health and education in particular and, of course welfare. They are currently bloating these areas because they want the power, and they can talk about 'job creation'. The biggest increases in a shrinking job market are public service jobs – no matter that those jobs are unnecessary, and to hell with the fact that workers in real jobs have to pay for the public ones, to the tune of $52 billion a year and rising.

I certainly see your Catch 22 situation. You are right. However, if and when it does happen, it will be a consequence of years of socialistic and unrealistic activities. It will be very hard on some people, but as they say, actions have consequences, and the dark days ahead for all of us will be the result of the misguided, often stupid, vote-buying policies of politicians. The worst of it is that those mongrels will not suffer like the rest of us will.

Is Mise,

I'm 'relieved' to see your comment on zippers; I thought it was just me. The Chinese zippers are too short and they cut off your water at the end of the process. The zip 'handle' folds into the bottom of the opening, and it takes for ever to fold it up to close the zip. When you get the zip almost up, you have to undo the top of your trousers to get the thing locked. Chinese zippers eventually force you to sit down to pee if you want to do it safely and with comfort.

Hey Paul1405,
I'm not for all the progressive stuff, (as you're aware) and nor am I supportive of outright Socialism.
In regards to Socialism I'll tell you why I think the ideology is flawed.
Firstly in order to create a socialist state, you'd have to take the wealth from all the people that had wealth, otherwise there's no reason for them to work as a slave in your socialist utopia.
- So the only way you can bring about outright socialism in the first place is by civil unrest and taking from the people that which does not belong to you, land, assets etc.
Secondly, it won't be efficient.
When the 100kg strong bloke that can pick 1000 apples per day gets no more than the weak man who can only pick 100 apples per day, then the strong man simply does his 100 apple per day quota, and society actually becomes less efficient...
Lest the government then try to increase productivity and reduce quality of life for the people and soon you have communism 'Socialism at the barrel of a gun'.
And it's not one class anyway, you still have a slave and a slave master; more or less. Someones got to tell the others what to do. Someone's got to rule and make decisions...
So outright socialism sucks... been there done that...
If you want to argue to pro's and con's of democracy there's arguments on both sides, as there is capitalism.
The ability for a man to work as he see's fit and be rewarded fairly for his labours, create a life of his own choosing; but must also accept the consequences of bad choices made.

I don't think it's a question of Socialism V's Capitalism.
That's stoneage thinking, human beings are supposed to be intelligent, resourceful, tool makers.

All one need to do is look at Plato's Republic to get a fair idea of we're were headed; it's all been done before.

But there's one way out.
I want to know what you think of my idea here:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19382#344589

[Cont.]
"The cost of the Australian Public Service has reached $52 billion annually. In fact its far greater than that, with the States and LG employing 75%, in total about 2 million people. If a politician with a zeal for efficiency was to come along and wave his magic wound and cut the PS by say 25%, very good you might say, no very bad, if nothing else is done, because you just doubled unemployment. At 5% unemployment is a non issue, at 10% (founder of the Liberal Party 'Pig Iron' Bob's ideal figure) you're in political trouble, at 30% (Great Depression figure) you're history. Besides you have to either make direct payments to the unemployed, the dole, very visible politically, or hide them by creating "new" jobs. And where can you do that, hidden in the public service.. much more politically acceptable."

This whole system itself is stupid and inefficient.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Technology can allow us to create a system that would create socialist base level employment 'The job you have when you don't have a job' with a fair wage.
The government pays $500 Newstart a fortnight for nothing
- why not pay $1000 a fortnight for a full time worker?

You don't need to force anyone to do it, the system itself allows people to get ahead if they choose to - all you have to do is create a system that makes use of the 5% pool of workers capitalism requires to prevent wage growth, and make it efficient, with incentives, training and rewards.

It's pretty simple.
Use the low wage base in conjuction with mass training at a lower cost level and save money by building infrastructure, the cost of which doubles every 10yrs, and the new infrastructure helps create more private sector jobs and business opportunities.

There would be jobs all across the country, and in regional outback areas as well.
BTW the post I linked to was 2 comments together, like this one, in case you didn't see the [Cont.] comment on the second page.

(Cont.)

One or the other won't work.
We need to find the right balance.

This is why I support retaining medicare.
We need to refine our system of government, not cannabalise it.
Include socialist base level jobs; not remove socialist base level healthcare.

Technology allows us to now (with Apps) achieve this in a way humankind has never been able to do so before.
- And nobody else see it but me, appartently.

How do we have a fair system with socialist education and healthcare if we don't have socialist jobs to support these base level standards?