A apt comment on the state of education seen this morning:

"How could it be that university graduates send out CVs they imagine are advertisements for competence but actually serve only to confirm their inability to spell and punctuate?"

Ever tried to read a doctor's scribble?

While immigrants are expected to have perfect English.

Doctors I visit use the default system script. Migrants' CVs may be even better because they get assistance.

It would be the unusual Asian parent who doesn't insist on her child attending private coaching every Saturday while others play sport, to be highly competitive for those places at the particular schools that they of course have researched and know. Same where university courses and placements are concerned and to achieve that early success that springboards tertiary attainments.

OK, some of that is out of the way and BTW, good on those Asian parents who at least know what their goals are and have sussed out the flaws in the education system.

I reckon this article sums it up well,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/sapwell-the-generation-grammar-forgotted/4463290

Missed is the known poor educational performance of boys and especially where English expression and enjoyment of reading are concerned, a trend that has not bottomed.

To any with young children I would say please read to them routinely and often. It really doesn't require those great works of note that one might find in lists. Just encourage a love of reading and anything does. Make fortnightly trips to the library and a small reward after. Fit it around and not instead of, recreation and sporting interests.

Foxy: You ask others "Ever tried to read a doctor's scribble?", but have you yourself had to read much doctors' writing.

From my experience I couldn't conclude (admittedly from only the limited sample I've encountered) that in general doctors handwriting is worse than average. For instance, one of my neighbours is a doctor and his writing is quite legible. Also I've personally been hospitalized a few times and every doctor I've met whose written something has done so quite legibly (not that there is that much hand writing these days- all correspondence is typed. I'm just referring to notes on the chart and the like whose content didn't mean a lot to me but at least it was discernibly written).

But besides this, what the article is referring to is the poor standards and lack of attention to spelling and grammar- NOT handwriting. It would be extremely rare for someone to supply a resume/CV that was hand written these days. I believe you could safely assume that the specimens in question that the article is referring to were typed.

English is our official language.
In view of this every official piece of paper, every test for any form of permit or licence should be conducted only in English.

I can't imagine anything more ridiculous than issuing drivers licence to people who have no English, & can't read signs.

Making English mandatory for any form of examination for any form of licence would force recent arrivals to at least learn the language.

Foxy,

A doctor's handwriting - often illegible to non-medical people - has nothing in common with typed CV's. Grammar and spelling is not an issue for chemists filling the prescriptions, and the doctor is not looking for a job. I really don't see the point to your comment.

If the subject article (is a subscription needed to view?) is referring to poor spelling and grammar, the deficiencies have roots in primary schooling, years 4-5 and on.

These are some of the reasons why Asian parents prefer independent coaching providers, private schools (selective) and the occasional superior State school. And children are removed from the State system as early as financially possible.

There are some Catholic junior schools that are very popular with Asian parents and for good reason, excellence in the fundamentals, well organised sports coaching and economic.

Many scientists, engineers, doctors, still struggle
to communicate effectively - both in writing and
in their choice of words. Poor communication is evident
among all sectors of Australian society. I remember the
days when the way you communicated (written and oral)
reflected your education level. And if you were not
able to do so effectively it was looked upon as an
impediment. Today- it seems - its - anything goes.

Luckily for me I had an English Mistress you insisted
that we don't use "shortcuts" in our language, either
spoken or written. That
we put endings onto our words and enunciate properly.
She also did not allow any slang. That I picked up
later on in life - and what fun that was.

I'm not sure what the teaching requirements are today -
but I do find that many people are capable of
thinking brilliantly. Expressing is another matter all
together. Perhaps we need to receive some form of
communication training - how to choose words, for
clarity and understanding especially when writing
one's CV. Impressions do matter after all.

Where people have missed out in their schooling and most likely have not been encouraged to read, they take their lead from the media, where they often believe that the modelling is correct (excepting where comedy is made obvious).

However even the publicly-funded national broadcaster is rife with poor pronunciation and poor English generally. Affirmative action and Political Correctness. The late James Dibble is sadly missed. Still much better than the commercial media which is woeful.

I wonder what adventure books are available for boys in primary schools? Maybe the books that are being deemed suitable for them are not what they would pick up and read.

In another life when I wore blue, I 'field breached' this foreign bloke, who spoke and understood English reasonably well I thought, for DMD, a fairly serious breach under the old Motor Traffic ACT (now upgraded to the Crimes ACT 1900 I believe). One NOT dealt with, with the usual 'On the Spot Fine, which meant he need NOT attend Court.

I 'jumped the box' gave my evidence, and the Magistrate asked if he wanted to respond. He did, and for nearly tens minutes he spoke nothing but a whole load of garbled words. Given it was a serious vehicular offence. the magistrate asked for an Interpreter and adjourned proceedings.

When next Court convened, complete with the blokes interpreter, it was established he came from some, obscure province in Yugoslavia that spoke another dialect. By this time I could see my DMD slowly dissipating, as this bloke was clearly misleading the Court, especially the Magistrate.

Anyway without dragging things on, ad nauseam - the Magistrate dismissed the charge of 'Drive Manner Dangerous' (DMD) and reduced it to simple 'speed', in excess of 20km. above the posted speed limit. Can't recall the actual fine. He claimed he couldn't read and understand the traffic signs ( 5 or 6 of the damn things, including a School). The Magistrate accepted his story, however he did refer the bloke's papers to the Commissioner, to have his fitness and qualification to hold a Driver's Licence re-examined. In order to establish whether he should re-sit the entire Driving Licence examination over again.

Had he gone down on DMD, he was facing; possible 3 - 6 months gaol, automatic cancellation of his DL, and a very substantial monetary Penalty. Go figure. His reading and speaking abilities were as sound as mine. Instead, his only penalty (in those days) was a $100 fine or so, and the possibility or re-sitting his Driver's Licence Test. He was indeed lucky, he wasn't facing a Coroners Court Inquiry. For speeding through primary School Stop signs; intersections, ignoring other Stop signs and pedestrian crossings, etc.

I remember one incident in the library when I was
helping an elderly Chinese gentleman to fill out
his membership form. I asked him what his surname
was and he said what I thought was "Mnnnnn?
So I repeated my question. He again clearly said,
"Mnnnnnn." This went on for a while. And I thought
what the heck's wrong with this man - is he deaf -
because every time I asked for his name he kept
saying, "Mnnnnnn." Until a colleague of mine came
up to me and whispered (while trying not to laugh).
His name is - 'NG."

Oooops.
Stupid me!

//Ever tried to read a doctor's scribble?//

Yep. But I've still yet to find one with worse handwriting than me. I like to read, and write, and I like to think that my spelling and grammar are of a reasonable standard. My handwriting is not; it looks like a drunken spider has crawled through some ink then attempted to tap-dance across the page

Poor handwriting does not equate to poor English. And on the flip side, I reckon you could train a foreigner who is skilled in the visual arts to reproduce beautiful calligraphy without having a damn clue what it means. After all, Australian tattoo artists manage it with Chinese characters.

cont'd ...

For any one looking for good reads for young
boys and girls - the TASHI series of books
are fantastic to read. The kids love them and
the age group is from kids as young as 4 up to
12 year olds. The language is wonderful as
are the characters.

There's nothing nicer to read than beautifully written cursive script. Both my Mother and Father had lovely writing, as well as one of my former bosses. His cursive writing was as good as you'd get from a trained calligrapher, and when asked if he'd had been taught, he'd merely shrug his shoulders and continue on being real 'pr..k' and walk off! He always used a fountain pen, black ink, and he'd carelessly leave it on his desk (he had his own Office being a Detective Chief Inspector) but some of the troops would gamely plot to 'lift' his pen and he's never see the thing again. Nevertheless our cowardly streaks would emerge, thus his pen remained safe.

A sidelight - He was the lead D. on the Graham THORN kidnapping case. It was his good work that led to the arrest of Stephen John BRADLEY (dec) late of NSW's Goulburn Maximum Security Gaol. And did Mr BRADLEY cop it from other crims, when he was first lodged therein!

Hey Foxy,
No it's not your fault, he's the one that's got a stupid name.
Aussie's don't know what to make of that.
'N[u]g' ??
Why can't he just change it and put an vowel in front of it and call himself Ong or Ang or Ing?
Poor old Mr N[u]g (with his stupid name), it's not his fault... Lol

Dear AC,

Thanks for that but it was my fault.

I had a heck of a problem understanding some of the
accents of people who came into the library. It
wasn't their fault it was mine. It took me a while
to get used to some of them. I remember one Italian
bloke came into the library stood opposite me at
my desk, looked at my chest and quite clearly said -
what I thought was "titis." I blushed bright red,
and said, "Excuse me?" So he repeated the word,
"titis." To make a long story short - it turned out
that he was after information on the middle-ear
infection - tinnitus.

Was I relieved.

Then there's the people who were after information on
"Youths in Asia," or so I thought. Nope. They actually
were after - Euthanasia.

Great fun working in a library.

I was a kid at school in Bathurst in the days when we still had bakers & milkmen delivering their wears in the early morning by horse & cart. The baker was a nice bloke, a pom, who unfortunately, like Foxy's chinaman had not actually learnt to speak the kings English, but some strange dialect. I remember when he was running late one Easter he tried to tell my mother that he was going to do a "weir do er" on the weekend. After much effort he finally got across that he was going to build a door to keep the flies out, a wire door.

All immigrants should have to learn to speak English when they come to Australia, particularly many of the poms & those from that quaint area a north of Hadrian's wall.

Dear Hassie,

Thanks for sharing your story.

Talking about deliveries to the home.

I remember how my parents laughed at what happened to my
aunt when she decided to ask her baker to leave her bread
on the back verandah of her home instead of the usual spot
on the front porch because she was going out for the day.
She left a note for him that she thought was written in
perfect English. Well, the bread delivery stopped for a
few days. She could not understand why?

It turned out that what she'd written to the man was,
"Put bread on backside."

Not being able to speak a language could now be an advantage under political correctness. Political correctness will contribute to the downfall of Western society

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4325336/crime-victims-who-dont-speak-english-may-soon-be-prioritised-by-police/

Crime victims who don’t speak English may soon ‘be prioritised by police’, says Met Deputy Commissioner

Deputy Commissioner for the Met Police – Craig Mackey – suggested which victims got face-to-face visits would depend on how 'vulnerable' they were

A TOP cop says victims of crime who don’t speak English could be prioritised over those who speak the language.

Craig Mackey, deputy commissioner for the Met Police, said which victims got face-to-face visits would depend on how “vulnerable” they were.

He told the Evening Standard last night: “It’s absolutely feasible as we go forward that if my neighbour is a vulnerable elderly person who has experienced a particular type of crime, that she gets a face-to-face service that I don’t get.

“So we triage things, we assess people’s vulnerability.

“Vulnerability can manifest itself in a number of ways: people with learning difficulties, a whole range of things, some people for whom English isn’t a first language.

I suppose that everyone here has had to communicate, or try, with the girls that work for Telstra on internet problems.

Well I have distinct problems with them as I cannot understand a word they say, and it makes me so frustrated and I am a lather of sweat after trying to communicate. I have no problem with other companies only Telstra. I can order airline tickets from Qantus to anywhere without trouble.

I am sure the Telstra girls are quite nice but they cannot speak in an understandable accent.

Strange that a communication company employs people that cannot communicate

I changed my communications provider when Telstra moved their call centres to the Philippines.

I changed oil companies when mine moved their call centre to India.

I find both accents basically incomprehensible.

My present internet company has their call centre in South Africa. If anyone knows of one who actually has an Ozzie call centre, please tell us. I really do prefer to do business with Ozzies.

147,106 Australian residents declared that they were born in India,
Philippines. 246 400.

I get nervous when men/women with covered face speak Arabic.

Some companies are bring their call centres back home. Some have them in Australia as well as overseas. Apparently you can ask, in some cases, to be put through to an Australian call centre if you strike an unintelligable.

How far can you go in teaching someone to speak English?

The wife of a mate of mine in New Guinea was a Manus Island girl. She had 5 years as a boarding student at SCEGGS Moss Vale, the 3 years at Sydney Uni.

If you heard her speak, without seeing her, you would expect her to be a well educated Ozzie young lady, unless she laughed. Her laugh was extremely typical of the Manus people, distinct & very loud. This of course proves you can teach people to speak perfect English, but you can't teach them to laugh in English.

That reminds me of another example. Another mate had a plantation on an atoll about 150 miles north of Bougainville. It was way out in the middle of nowhere, over 60 miles from the nearest other land.

The locals, about 250 of them were basically Polynesian, with a very little infusion of Melanesian. My mate had put 8 of the boys through Kings School Sydney, followed by Sydney Uni, & a bunch of girls through SCEGGS, with some going on to Uni. Another dozen or so had boarded at schools in north Queensland& some of these Uni in Port Moresby.

After 30 years of this, despite quite a few not returning "home" the people spoke mostly English, & spoke it more correctly than the average Sydneysider.

Lee Kuan Yew said Australians speak a language very similar to English. Mahathir PM of Malaysia gave an example :" Good die mite it's a good die to die."