The news today shows the depravity and entitlement of the Union movement from which Labor gets $ms in donations in return for favours.

"The nasty threats at a union rally on Tuesday, directed at ABCC inspectors by the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union’s Victorian boss, John Setka, were disturbing. He dubbed the inspectors “f..kers” and suggested unionists would find out where they lived. “We will lobby their neighbourhoods,” he sneered, “we will tell them who lives in that house, what he does for a living, or she. We will go to their local football club. We will go to the local shopping centre. They will not be able to show their faces anywhere. Their kids will be ashamed of who their parents are when we expose all these ABCC inspectors.”

And "Sally McManus suggested in March that unions could pick and choose which laws to obey. “I believe in the rule of law where the law is fair when the law is right,” she told the ABC. “But when it’s unjust, I don’t think there’s a problem with breaking it.”

Shadow, as you already know, there is no finer body of men and women in Australia than the members of the CFMEU.

You are the type that takes all the benefits unions have obtain for workers in Australia, yet criticize them at any opportunity. It is the hypocrite in you that takes the benefits but wont pay the dues!

Very precise, SM is a radical right where else does this meddling come from. The law is fair and just, says it all and where did that come from. Non other than an all time great liar and fraudster.
SM best look after his english politics he is so fond of.
This was part of the Abbott agenda to get more and more control of the community, to further his dictatorial ways of the far right.

Paul,

There is no finer collection of Crooks, thugs and stand over men than the CFMEU. However, as generous donors to the greens, you have to put your mouth where the money is and overlook their misdeeds.

Between 2003 and 2015 there were 3,207 worker fatalities in Australia, and many thousands of non fatal serious accidents as well, as reported by Safe Work Australia. Something the smug union bashing brigade always fail to mention. The same people, I wont call them workers, often from the safety of the ivory tower, where the only likelihood of an injury is a nose bleed due to the rarefied atmosphere, like to firstly line up and take the hard won benifits unions win for their members, then secondly they like to heap scorn on the real workers, workers like you find on construction sites, doing the hard yakka, members of the CFMEU. Yes, they can be offensive, they can be aggressive, they can be militant. But no one can deny, it was through the efforts of that rough union mob that an unregulated, poorly paid, unsafe construction industry was turned on its head, and made safer, better regulated and better paid.
Shadow do you favor returning to the dark old days, but I'm sure regardless, you'll be safe!

Unlike the Liberal Party that took illegal donations from property developers in NSW, through the back door, wink wink nudge nudge, ah, I wonder why! The Greens are always happy to take up front legal donations from a legitimate union.

Paul,

Noticeably, during this period the rate of fatalities has hardly changed and the CFMEU has strong-armed about $100m from workers and employers and driven construction costs to the highest in the world. In the same time, there were roughly 20 000 road casualties, about 24000 died from the flu etc, so the safety badge the Crooked union wears is largely undeserved.

But Labor and the Greens are now so dependent on the proceeds of crime from the unions that they will hold their noses and support them no matter what.

Hi there SHADOW MINISTER...

This makes me bloody angry! What are the lazy coppers doing about it? Sounds like 'threats with menaces' to me? This bloke would be very quickly accompanying me to the nearest Police Station, while wearing a lovely pair of 'Saflok' handcuffs. I ask again, what in the hell are the coppers doing about these criminal thugs permeating the Union! Gezz!

Typical thoughtless attitude from you Shadow, only 3207 workers killed on the job, hardly worth bothering about, ah!. Taking a leaf out of your book, only 16 police officers have died in the line of duty in NSW in the last 40 years, probably a lot more have died from the flu or in car accidents, why then do the coppers bitch about their safety in the line of duty, do you think they are a bunch of whingers?

Like you, my heart bleeds for those poor developers like Harry Triguboff with a fortune estimated at a measly $11 billion. Fancy those ungrateful construction workers wanting decent wages and conditions, and wanting to work safely, and expecting to go home to their love ones each evening, scandaless wouldn't you say Shadow.

Hi PAUL1405...

While it's true the number of police killed on duty is minuscule compared to fatalities on a building site, the level of personal violence occasioned to and offered to police, during the course of their duty, is in fact relatively high.

My anger is not directed at the construction workers themselves, but more so their 'mouthy' union leader (who's name escapes me) the individual who made those appalling threats to the lawfully appointed work-site Inspectorate Staff, who's function it is, to make irregularly visits to the various building Sites to ensure safety and other mandated measures, are adequately complied with.

While those publicly made threats were more likely, merely 'throw away lines' as it were, nevertheless he should be brought to account otherwise anyone can go around and carelessly make these intimidatory remarks with relative impunity, or so it would seem? Whatever his motive, it was a damn silly thing to do Paul, don't you agree? These Inspectors are not police, rather they're merely ordinary public servants with with restrictive powers enabling them to report government mandated violations on building sites, so any threats to them, or members of their family, needed to be taken very seriously indeed!

Hi o sung wu, I don't condone what this bloke in Victoria is reported to have said. In a past life I had a lot to do with industrial unions. with people like Laurie Carmichael, a good bloke in my book, and even the terrible terror Norm Gallagher. What I can say is the construction industry is not your run of the mill lardy dah business full of polite considerate people, who like nothing better than to exchange niceties with each other over a cup of tea. Its a tough, no holds barred, rough and tumble game, where the strong survive, and the weak get washed down the drain. The unions always played hard ball, but so did the employers. in that context what goes on, would shock some of the faint hearts like Shadow. They would be appealed by such uncouth behavior, but they live in a different world.

I assume in your time you were a member of the Police Union. And it is fair to say you expected the union to have acted in your interest, there is no difference on that score between police and construction workers. The methods might be different, but they are what the membership expect, however the aims are the same.

Hi there PAUL1405...

I thought you were talking about the NSW Police Force in the day...'tough, no holds barred etc...', and I do accept the old BLF 'HAD' to play it hard as it were. It wasn't the BLF who were the real trouble, it was your mate Norman 'the foreman' GALLAGHER who pushed the limits to breaking point Paul?

It might come as a surprise to you as well, there was/is still heaps of intel. on that...."gentleman"- none of which the public, and most of the rank 'n file BLF membership, and surprisingly, the Media never knew! The only reason he wasn't charged with serious criminal offences, both against the person, and other serious offences, I'll never ever disclose, but I have my suspicions. Everyone within the old 21 Div at that time were aware of most of it, and were ready to take him down.

No doubt Paul you were never close to him on a personal level, if you were, you'd never mention his name allowing 'things' to remain quietly consigned to the depths of the 'b...ards' grave.

Mate, I know you're a decent bloke, that's despite the wide disparity we have between our various views of politics and other issues within society per se. Nevertheless, I'd be proud to meet you for a beer or two in any pub, and argue the toss over a beer or three. But if it was Norman 'the foreman' extending the invitation, I'd take a shotgun! Sorry to speak ill, of I hope, just an acquaintance rather than a friend. But one day the truth will out.

Yes. This particular union and the official making threats are a bloody disgrace. Charges should be brought against the official for inciting violence, and the union itself should be dealt with in the same way the old builders' union was.

Hi o sung wu, if you think Big Norm Gallagher was my mate you're reading it wrong. The threats made by this bloke in Melbourne are mild compared to the threats made to me and others by Gallagher. The 30 year rule has long past so I'll tell you the story;

In Sydney on a industrial building project, 1970's, a site agreement was being negotiated, things had got bogged down with project management (the contractor), due mainly to BLF belligerence, which had become the "Norm" on projects in Sydney at that time. We, the Works Committee were not directly involved in negotiations, but as our members were a small party to the site arrangements we had a couple of representatives. In trying to escalate the matter the BLF mob called in Big Norm, to take over the dispute, at the time Norm was at war with the NSW BLF. The plan as far as the BLF was concerned was to demand we the Works Committee put our members on the grass, and thus force the employer to pressure the contractor to capitulate. A meeting was scheduled in Charmers Street for the Thursday avo, the ultimatum would be delivered to the employer through the Works Committee on Friday, that we intended to pull our members, the start of first shift Monday, unless the site agreement was agreed too.

cont

cont

Norm and his boys, turned up to the meeting (late) and then proceed to tell us the Works Committee what we would do. We had talked with management previously about the whole business, as they were concerned it could escalate and involve us and them. We had given an undertaking that we would not become involved unless our management had first bit into the argument, which they hadn't. Our committee had met that morning and unanimously agreed we would stick with our undertaking not to become involved. We gave Norm and his gang the courtesy of a meeting, and listened as he tried to bully us into what he wanted. Our Convener called on each union present to put their position, before a vote was taken. One by one we spoke indicating that our union would not be undertaking industrial action to support those negotiating the site agreement, the BLF more or less. Well did Gallagher fire up at us, words and threats I cannot post here. Our Convener put it to Norm, you have heard the feelings of the committee unions, do you want to leave the room while we take a vote, Norm once again called us for everything and marched out of the room, no vote was taken. The dispute was resolved the next week, Norm returned to Melbourne to lick his wounds for once.

Norm to a manager, for $10k,? some said it was only $8k, I'll give you industrial peace, and not only that, I'll see to it that holiday joint you want built down at xxxx, is done free, you supply the materials through the job. The manager was receptive to the idea. Seems those sorts of arraignments were the "Norm", in those days.

Thank you Paul for your most enlightening piece involving the inner machinations of negotiating with the BLF. I must confess I've never understood much about Trade Unionism and the processes associated with seeking pay and conditions for the membership. And I have no doubt Unions do help out the little fella, whenever they're bullied by the big corporations. But never Norman the foreman, he was one rotten individual!

You're correct of course, most of us paid in fortnightly, to our Association, with very few members who declined to do so. We had excellent legal representation, with a few ex-members pulling the plug joining large legal firms who specifically specialize in workplace law, purely to represent members who've got into strive over one thing or the other.

Interestingly, one of the main Legal firms the police union used, were apparently the advisory 'legal eagles' for the 'Shop Assistants Union'. Many of their membership were made up of a majority of (pretty?) young ladies (I'm not allowed to say that, am I?),anyway how I knew, one day I had to drop off a mate, at their main Office in King Street, in the City. Whereupon I accompanied him up to the main floor where they had their reception area.

Waiting quietly, ostensibly for their own appointment's, were a couple of very 'fetching' young ladies, and to be perfectly honest with you Paul, I didn't mind in the least, patiently spending the time there, waiting for my big ugly mate! The unexpected benefits of looking after a fellow member, when he's in strife eh!

If anyone did a tiny bit of research on Labours front bench and their partners it would be easy to see why they shield criminals. Instead our abc would rather spend 2 weeks on Tony Abbott punching the air 40 years ago.

Paul,

I didn't say only 3207 workers, you did.

To take your theme further, the annual figure is less 30 per year for the entire construction industry including road accidents. And this is your basis to have an unaccountable corrupt neo-fascist group of thugs with unfettered powers extorting money from workers and employers alike?

What's next, with 1300 deaths p.a. on the roads do you propose union bovver boys issuing licences and mounting speed cameras at every corner and pocketing the proceeds?

Shadow, in my working life, I have known 3 people who were killed on the job. That is one every 15 years, not many you would say. In each and every case safety was a factor, and in each case the employer tried to minimize management negligence, and sheet home blame to the dead worker himself. It was through Union involvement, preventing cover ups, that Workcover was able to fully investigate the tragedies. The union also had to become involved later to ensure proper insurance was paid to the widow in each case.

It has been a long road to make safe working practices paramount over the notion of getting the job done, as the primary consideration, which prevailed for years. Certainly in the unregulated construction industry where deaths were common place back in the dark old days. The government of the time patted itself on the back for the fact that only 16 workers were killed during the construction of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Many of the safe work practices in the industry today are down to the hard work of the unions. If that puts up costs for a few billionaire developers who you like to favor, stiff!

A couple of the union wins on safety in the construction industry in my life time that were resisted by employers at the time, the mandatory wearing of safety gear, hard hats, steel capped boots, hi vis vests. Less visible but just as necessary, power tool certification, trade licences, and site reporting, apprenticeship training.
Because we were unionized 100%, how many 'subbies' spat the dummy, when they were kicked off site for not meeting some of the above.

o sung wu, you see today police better equipped, better trained, better paid, better protected, better compensated when needed etc. Many of those day to day benefits did not come about by accident, but through a lot of hard work by the Police Association working with the employer (the government) behind the scenes. That has to continue into the future.

Paul,

I have experienced the depth of the CFMEU corruption first hand. The charging of rent to food and drink suppliers on a site that wasn't theirs, the phoney safety site shut downs etc after extortion demands, the deliberate blocking of toilets to shut the site etc, to have very sour experience with the CFMEU.

The faux attention they pay to safety is just a fig leaf for their corruption.

It is simply not true that unions, particularly of the CFMEU ilk, have been responsible for the improvements in workplace health and safety on building sites.

The big advances and the sure, consistent steps forward, have come from the skills and hard work of professional engineers and from technology and, because there were efficiency improvements and changes in the way of doing things, there was almost always bitter resistance from unions and often expressed against their own members as well.

There have been work process improvement/streamlining initiatives by individual union members that contributed to safety improvement but there too was the predictable resistance by union organisers.

Unions put their own leadership and structure first and foremost and ahead of the best interests of members where necessary. -As anyone who has not come down in the last shower in Australia would attest from relatively recent events. The unions don't mind having their officials preferred ahead of their own union members too.

Another thing, that Harbour Bridge example either betrays Paul1405's ignorance or his intent to pull the wool over readers' eyes. Think of the differences in available technology alone and the government pressure for completion.

What would also hugely wrong would be for rogue unions to be claiming the improvements achieved by the sensible mainstream unions where there was the preparedness to sit down and put the desired outcomes first.

Paul1405 misses his true vocation as a writer of cheap, trashy fiction. But wait a minute, that could be his job with the Greens. And apparently the Greens do believe in pay for fictional work.

Stock standard anti union bashing from the all knowing, all seeing, fly on the wall.
Leo, watching that trade person erect your new garden shed in the backyard, hardly qualifies you as an expert on the construction industry. But when has ignorance, and a general lack of knowledge stopped you in the past.

That is a stock reply from you, Paul1405.

Tell me you have at some time actually produced something of at least some minor practical value to someone.

That you haven't spent your entire life doing what you do here, which is stumbling around in the dark and stirring the possum.

Leo, Yes!

Good evening to you PAUL1405...

Yes indeed Paul the Police Association, no doubt through their industrial muscle, have managed to secure benefits and pay increases for members over the years. And a little known fact that police cannot go on strike. To do so would render all those who did so, eligible for a trip out to Long Bay, as we're sworn-in, and as a consequence we forfeit the right to go on strike. That doesn't preclude us from 'work to rule' as it were, of undertaking other non-life threatening industrial action.

Mainly that which covers a multitude of admin. duties. Such as fines, returns, and other paper shuffling duties, the Police Department is famously renowned for. Though in my experience there were some threats but little ever come from it, and industrial peace was, forevermore preserved in perpetuity?

Hi o sung wu,

As a history buff, I find the story of the NSW Police Force most interesting. Now being one of the largest of its kind, and one of the most respected and well trained police forces in the world. That was not always the case. Ned Kelly, probably had reasonable grounds, based on injustice, to hate the police of the time.
Although Governor Phillip set up a 'Night Watch' in 1789, a regimented police force as we would recognize it did not come about in NSW until around the 1850's/60's, the gold rush era.
The job of policeman in those days was not a respected occupation, both by the criminal class, and by the general population. Poorly train and badly paid, many "coppers" were no better than the criminals they were supposed to police, some were just above the criminal class themselves, and often part of it. The force has come a long way since those dark old days, not always a smooth ride, there has been plenty of ups and downs along the way. Today the men and women of the NSW Police Force can rightly be proud of their position in society. Much of that is down to their own efforts, and not just down to the work of politicians etc.

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/about_us/history

Hi there PAUL1405...

Ah, they're not a bad mob of gals 'n blokes, compared with other similar sized Forces. I heard somewhere NSW is supposed to be the 5th largest Force in the Western world, the truth of which I really can't authenticate? And we've had our ups and downs, and I suppose the job is what you make of it. All I can say, it's been pretty good to me, pension and career wise I must confess and I've most certainly learned lots of interesting skills and other more peculiar stuff, not usually available to ordinary members of the general public. I guess in hindsight my biggest regret, was not staying in the Military after my initial six years engagement. As I was duly informed shortly before my discharge took effect, that I had a reasonably good career stream, ahead of me, had I decided to re-engage? Still being a copper was OK I guess?

o sung wu

I bet that the Police union isn't nearly as corrupt as the CFMEU and doesn't beat up or threaten people, and doesn't extort money from their employer.

Paul,

I assume that you are happy with the CFMEU threatening vendors with smashing their machines, with creating phoney "safety issues" to shut the site, etc as long as the greens get their 30 pieces of silver.

Hi o sung wu,

I think the NSW force ranks up there with London and the NYPD for size. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think one of the big issues for police personally in the past was pensions, which you mentioned. In the dark old days, like all workers, a copper injured on the job was simply cast aside and forgotten, or his widow and children left to fend for themselves. I believe the police were actually at the forefront of demanding a better deal for those incapacitated and unable to provide for themselves and family. It gets up my nose when from time to time the excellent after work benefits police receive today are questioned, and they are very good, by people who don't know the history. You would find those benefits are very much down to the past work of the Police Association.

Just on pensions, and I have read Jack Lang's account of the history of the 'Widows Pension' in NSW. It was Lang who introduced a universal Widows Pension in NSW at 5 shillings (50 cents) a week in the 1930's, along with child endowment, paid directly to the mother, a totally new concept. Previously pensions were only available to a few men, white collar public servants and some "staff" people in private enterprise. Police rank and file, although public servants were considered blue collar, as were for example those below the rank of Station Master on NSW trains.
The conservative opposition in NSW vehemently opposed the payment of the Widows Pension on several grounds. One, it was unaffordable for the state, two it was immoral, a payment to a woman directly would make her a kept woman, shameful, and also they argued women could not manage and value money. Interesting.

"A JUDGE has condemned the CFMEU’s “deplorable history,” while fining the union and one of its officials $86,000 for telling two Brisbane construction workers to pay union fees or not work on a site.

In the Federal Circuit Court on Tuesday, judge Michael Jarrett penalised the CFMEU and delegate Daniel Barker for making “false and misleading” representations towards the workers on the Zest Apartments Project in Kelvin Grove in January 2016.

He fined the CFMEU $80,000, and Barker $6000.

The court has previously been told both workers left the site after Barker told them they each owed union fees and had to pay up in order to work there.

When reminded by a site manager that workers had the right to not be in a union, the CFMEU delegate said: “Everybody’s got to be in the union, this is an EBA site.”

Justice Jarrett said the fines reflected “the CFMEU’s deplorable history of compliance with industrial laws”.

"John Setka last week in a rally urged those people at the rally, and indicated the CFMEU was going to continue to intimidate and threaten the public servants who work for the Australian Building and Construction Commission who are just going about their jobs,’

“He was going to find them in their supermarkets, at the footy games where they were with their kids, shame them in front of their families, tell people where they live, just because the ABCC is trying to bring about the rule of law on construction sites in Australia.’’

Unions = Mafia

Hi there SHADOW MINISTER & PAUL1405...

A little known fact with the Police Association, the Executive are all made up of serving police members, with only the top echelons of the Executive (the President & Secretary) on secondment for full-time Association duties. After which they either step down or lose their elected positions, and return to full time police.

If they choose to 'rock the boat' or be somewhat of a 'stirrer' while holding a position of power eg the Association Secretary, they should be very mindful they'll eventually need to return to normal duties after their term of office expires, and various Commissioners have awfully long memories!

SHADOW MINISTER, your comparison between the coppers union and other more militant unions are actually very difficult to compare. The Police Association executive are made up of police members, and as a consequence they need to behave as the spotlight is always on them in terms of what they say and do.

Moreover it's my understanding the more militant trade unions are staffed usually by full time Union organiser's, who have some training as Union leaders, therefore they usually understand their many limitation on precisely, what it is they can, and can't do. Hope this helps?

Hi there PAUL1405...

Sorry for my delay in answering you apropos figures of manpower in the respective Police Forces. NYPD has about 35,000 sworn, and 11,000 unsworn (covering all five Boroughs). Whereas the London Met. has about 32,000 sworn and 11,000 unsworn. But in moments of an emergency they can draw an additional 700 from the City of London Police as well. A curious old system that still prevails in The City of London? Just one square mile of Policing?

Before my time there were issues to do with Pensions, not only upon retirement but through invalidity, and being killed on duty as well. But even though the occasional disgruntled copper, will still have a whinge, we've got an excellent pension scheme which we all must pay into, the moment we're sworn-in. While it's true Paul, they're forever and intolerably, tinkering around the damn thing, I don't reckon there much to complain about, in my opinion. However, you get two coppers in a room together, and they'll find something to whinge about for sure. Thanks Paul.

O,

I never made any comparison between the police union and the CFMEU. The main difference is that the Police union is made up of police, and the CFMEU is made up of crooks.

Hi there SHADOW MINISTER...

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original Email, I do understand, you were NOT drawing any comparison between the coppers union and the more militant construction unions who do have a reputation of playing hard ball. Don't worry none of our union leaders could ever be described as 'wilting lilies' either!

O,

It is perfectly possible to be a tough negotiator and stay within the law, something the CFMEU has never bothered to try.

Quite true SHADOW MINISTER, quite true.

o sung wu, "A little known fact with the Police Association, the Executive are all made up of serving police members, with only the top echelons of the Executive (the President & Secretary) on secondment for full-time Association duties"

While that might seem odd to some and perhaps even to you since you mention it, the reasoning is based in the lower pay, lesser conditions and privileges of certain occupations that are charged with serving the public.

Without wanting to go into long detail, I will take advantage of the arguments presently circulating 'in the ether' concerning the 'generosity' (they take some leeway there with that word) of federal public servants superannuation. The rationale is that they pick up a bit there for years of lesser pay than the private sector. Nurses, police, military, clerks, professionals to list some affected, are all expected to regard themselves as serving in vocations that should never withdraw labour to get their due pay and entitlements. - Witness the *bleep*storm that descends on them eg., nurses, where they do take minor 'work to rule' action.

However even where superannuation is concerned, for most, the far greatest majority of retiring public servants (including nurses, clerks and so on) the compulsory contributions only result in superannuation payments that are little better than the Age Pension and can easily exclude the rebates and freebies of the Age Pension.

It is the politicians who always have the last laugh on public servants. Because the pollies' generous super is indexed against average weekly earnings and maintains its value. But as Parliamentary Committees have noted, the luckless public servants super loses its purchasing value through UNFAIRLY (Parliamentary Committees' comments!) being indexed against the CPI.