Hi Oliver
nice to hear from you.

May I point out what these councils did, is clarify in the face of specific false teaching and heresy the nature of our Lord.
If it were not for people like Arius or the Gnostics, or Marcion, or
Sabellianism
Monophysitism
Adoptionism
Nestorianism
Apollinarianism
Donatism
Pellagiamism
etc..
The councils would not have been neccessary.
It was only as these heretics went their own way, and presumably by force of charismatic personality, and persuasive tongue, managed to build some kind of following.
So, the nature of Christ was clarified on the basis of the full counsel of Scripture, which includes the passages which appear to disagree "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

Interstingly, such passages were not considered a threat to Christs deity, or (according to those who claim the Scriptures have been "hashed and re-hashed so many times") the 'Church' might have modified or removed them ?

The main goal of this thread, was basically to show from the Scriptures which are used by those who oppose Christs deity, that they in fact support it, rather than deny it.

Hence a correct understanding of such passages will equip the weaker Christian and the less knowledgable agnostic who may be in the process of being seduced by 'other' religions.

It also is a wake up call to other religions concerning the true nature of Christ.

by way of anecdote, I recommend a viewing of this remarkable video of a former PLO sniper, who hated Jews, who is now a Christian.
Look at the peace of heart written on his face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwj0KY7wwXk&mode=related&search=
Contrast that with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3I1vGLm5Lg
Before you jump on me about the content, pls realise that the man who is now Christian in the first Vid DID this prior to knowing Christ.

I still want to know why three dirty old men turned up on the night of JC"s birth with gifts and what Joseph thought when it was explained to him that he wasn't the dad. Very suspicious indeed.

When entering this thread, I know for sure that words being used, are another way of swearing and pretty much doubt, that without a dictionary on hand, more than half the people who use this thread do not understand what the heck you lot are on about! Sorry, is this thread only for those who in fact like to feel they are religious by quoting some hyperthetical grunge so as for others not to understand like myself?, who, being Uni educated to Phd level, try speaking English instead of in "tongues", for others less educated and not into sparring with words, for those to also enjoy this forum.
Do I sense a tinge of religious snobism in this thread? Get back to the original topic of discussion, that being: Is Jesus..God? NO he isn't, and thats from a Phd! Is it at all possible, without sounding too dry, for myself and others who are interested in this thread,to not have to keep running for the ruddy dictionary? People are my game and to understand them is in itself an art and profession.

Dear Spanky
apologies if the language sounded somehow snobbish.
I'm interested in which field your phd is in-care to enlighten ?

Let me re-iterate, I cannot prove Christ Jesus is God apart from the clear understanding of the scriptures. If one begins such an examination of the issue with the predisposition that they are unreliable, then, no amount of 'proving' or arguing from Scripture will alter that situation.

My starting point is this:

Based on the scriptures as they stand, an in particular 'John's Gospel' can we show that the Lord Jesus understood Himself to be 'God' or.. God's Son?

I believe the answer is yes and yes. I'm more concerned with the correct understanding of the text, than with the issue of its reliability. (in this thread)

The reason for this approach, is that some non Christians "use" this Gospel to seek to show Jesus was NOT God, and have built a whole religion on that assumption. Further, Christians as a class of people, are condemned outright "May Allah destroy them" (Sura 9:30) for believing that Christ is Son of God.

So, this issue is very important, and does indeed divide the whole world.
Thanx for your contribution, but why not engage one step further, and look at the texts mentioned, and I would appreciate your assessment of the intepretation even if just as a 'document'.

In other words, regard this text (John 8 and John 10) as 'documents' which are similar to others about historical figures and which require interpretation. If you were a historian, and you encountered these documents, and were aware of "Historian SOandSO" who takes the view "The central character believed xyz about himself" you may like to concur or disagree on the grounds of sound principles of interpretation.

Dear Ranier
not being a mind reader with deep historical penetration, I am at a loss to answer that :)

No God ever existed if they did what one is the true one?
If one is true why the others?
Why do those who believe say our God is the only God?
We can if we wish name tens of Gods man has invented who gives us the right to say the God of the Jews cares for us? is the only true God?
In truth how many who claim to be Christians are in fact?
How many go to church?
Some speak of God only in times of great need , a clear pointer to why we have Gods
BD you set out a threat to bring about debate that is commendable but some answers will not please you.
I find it hard to think the king of the Jews is a God but understand some need a crutch to lean on.