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The Forum > General Discussion > Still a big mistake Mr President

Still a big mistake Mr President

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Having had my humble opinion that Trump was silly attacking Syria sneered at, I was gratified to read that none other than Daniel Pipes presented the same view in an article entitled 'No to bombing Syria'.

Pipes says: “Direct American involvement implies favoring one side against the other, when BOTH ARE HIDEOUSLY REPUGNANT.”

All the Abbott-haters will remember how they sneered at that perceptive man when he said the same. The idiot, Charlie Pickering made much of it last night on his weird program.

Pipes and Abbott (and little old me) are right. Trump massively showed that he sided with ISIS, or the equivalent of it, by sending 60 missiles at $US110,000 a pop into Syria, achieving nothing except emboldening terrorist Islam.

As Pipes rightly says, “...there is nothing in the U.S. Constitution (that) requires that American forces fight in every war around he world.” He believes that enemies of the United States – the Syrian government and the 'rebels' – should be left to fight each other to exhaustion.

In my view, Trump and America should be concentrating solely on destroying the North Korean regime, which is a real threat to the world.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 15 April 2017 11:38:22 AM
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> Pipes says: “Direct American involvement implies favoring one side against the other,
> when BOTH ARE HIDEOUSLY REPUGNANT.”

It's highly misleading to refer to "both" sides when it's a six sided war.

...or if you include America and Russia, an eight sided war.
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 16 April 2017 3:39:41 PM
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The cost of the missiles was a little over 1 Million dollars each.
Posted by Philip S, Sunday, 16 April 2017 4:40:14 PM
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PhilipS. Probably true. The $110k would just be the purchase price. The $60 million would have been better spent on humanitarian aid.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 16 April 2017 5:27:33 PM
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Humanitarian! What sort of humanitarian are you, you and Abbott are in the same bed, enjoying the fruits of life.

The first time I have ever seen anyone talk 15 different sorts of shat in the same sentence.
Posted by doog, Sunday, 16 April 2017 9:08:41 PM
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doog,

I didn't say that I was a humanitarian. I am not. Don't pretend to be. Where on earth did you get the idea that I was? Still obsessed with Abbot I see.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 16 April 2017 11:51:15 PM
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Those Tomahawk missiles cost US$1.5 million each.Trump is a sharholder in Raecom. LOL
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-is-how-much-it-will-cost-to-replace-the-tomahawks-used-in-syria-2017-04-07

What is the truth?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-story-youve-been-hearing-about-the-%E2%80%98mother-all-bombs%E2%80%99-20181
and
http://taskandpurpose.com/russian-father-bombs-moab

Trump has used a weapon of mass destruction.
Posted by JF Aus, Monday, 17 April 2017 9:10:38 AM
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Those 59 rockets would have best been kept in reserve for use against North Korea, which, unlike Syria, is a real threat to the U.S. and the free world.

And, don't worry about China. China doesn't want millions of refugees streaming over their border and, as the only ally of North Korea, they will shortly pull the fat lunatic with the bad haircut into line themselves, particularly now that Trump has had the nuts to steam a fleet into the region.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 17 April 2017 10:43:37 AM
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Hi Ttbn,

The problem with steaming a battle fleet into a touchy region is: do you stop at some critical point, or do you keep going ? There's no point sitting still, like turds in a duck pond, which would have to happen sooner or later, unless they end up off the coast of Pyongyang.

Here's an absurd hypothetical: what if, the moment that North Korean missile test went wrong, the US had stopped its fleet - i.e. we don't shove a stick into a snake's nest: if you - in effect - back off, we'll back off. Let's hose this down.

In the event of a war, Seoul, a city of ten million, would be bombarded up, down and sideways. Then Pyongyang would be similarly bombarded. North Korean troops would invade the South; South Korean and US troops would invade the North; Chinese troops would step in, and away we go again.

Crazy idea: what if China, Japan and south Korea offered to fund great numbers of modern industrial enterprises along the Yalu, each putting in 30 % of cost, with North Korea putting in 10 % BUT, at the end of, say, five or ten years, owning those enterprises outright ? Manag4ed well, they would have grown and diversified in ten years. I'm thinking of enterprises, using North Korean expertise and labour of course, which (presumably) the Chinese would be happy to transfer to North Korea, nothing too high-tech, maybe assembly plants.

Perhaps a naïve idea: but could it defuse the push for war on all sides, and at the same time, 'assist' the North Korean totalitarian state move towards integrating its economy with the rest of the world's, and raise the living conditions of some of the North Korean people ?

And give the Chinese time to move the regime away from the development of nuclear weapons, since China would cop the fallout of any war the most ? Yes, China uses NK as a pawn in its dealings with the US, but a pawn with unpredictable leaders, who may have expansionist designs on parts of China.
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 17 April 2017 12:27:04 PM
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I'm a big fan of Pipes.
But this time he's wrong...or wrong at the moment. Trump hasn't declared against Assad or Russia or Syria. He's said there will be no US boots on the ground in Syria. Only if that changes will Pipes' assessment become valid.

The missile strike wasn't about taking sides in the Syrian conflict. It was about sending a message to various world players that the adults were back in charge of US policy.

There were few planes or lives lost here because he warned Putin beforehand. This was a message, not the start of a war.

But psychologically, everything has changed.Assad now knows that using chemical weapons will have consequences. Putin knows he now has to factor the US into his Syrian (and Ukrainian and Baltic state) calculations. And most importantly, China and Kim now know that the US is serious about finally resolving the Korean issue.

My guess is that Trump and his team were waiting for an opportunity to send a message and the chemical attacks were that excuse. If you think it was mere coincidence that the missiles hit just as dessert was served in the Trump-Xi dinner, then I've got this bridge for sale I'd like to talk to you about.

The US has overwhelming power and no one would be prepared to take it on if they think it'll use that power. It hasn't been so prepared for the past decade, but the missile attack was showing that that's changed.

In the past China was happy to let the US flounder as it tried to deal with the maniacs in Pyongyang. But suddenly, China is jumping to Trump's tune and activiely trying to get Kim to see reason. The world has changed.

As an aside Trump tweeted today "Why would I call China a currency manipulator when they are working with us on the North Korean problem?" Translation - China's trade position with us depends on them doing all they can to solve the Kim problem. The art of the deal meets the art of war.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 17 April 2017 1:29:57 PM
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Hi MHaze,

Brilliant ! Now for Phase 2.
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 17 April 2017 1:45:42 PM
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“Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.”

Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Your "Phase 2" mention is as cryptic as the petunias' lament. But, I suspect, significantly less profound.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 17 April 2017 4:21:35 PM
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Sorry, MHaze,

I suppose what I meant was, what next ? What does the US fleet do once it's got to the 38th Parallel ? What if the South Koreans suggest that they don't want to be nuked ? So the fleet just hangs around and then goes back to Guam ? What does McMaster do if the Syrians use sarin gas again, and the Russians are spread around at all the airbases ?

Trump would, of course, ask, what would one of the Super-Heroes do, Superman, Aquaman, Batman, the Green Lantern, etc. ? [Or am I showing my age ?] It would be so easy, after all, to simply zap Kim Yong-Un. Zap - gone. International politics is really so easy: Biff ! Bam ! Wham ! Duff !

And there's the South China Sea yet. Afghanistan might be more complicated than Batman would think. Interesting times.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 17 April 2017 5:40:18 PM
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//Your "Phase 2" mention is as cryptic as the petunias' lament.//

Cryptic? Do yourself a favour and read Life, the Universe and Everything. All will become clear.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 17 April 2017 6:03:59 PM
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Toni,

Yes I'm aware that the bowl of petunias is in fact Agrajag and his comment is eventually explained. But it was cryptic at first, just as Loudmouth's comment was indecipherable until he later explained.

Loudmouth,

What's next? Well we'll just have to wait and see. But the US has played it perfectly so far so there's reason for optimism... although I suspect there are some (no names mind you) who are barracking for them to falter.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 17 April 2017 9:52:52 PM
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Many Americans would like to see Trump falter a.s.a.p.

I would like to see sustainable prosperity and peace a.s.a.p.

N.B. We owe our present freedom to the American people.
Posted by JF Aus, Monday, 17 April 2017 10:35:23 PM
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When was the last time the world was at peace. That is a stupid thing to say. The world will never be at peace while we have religious groups in the world.
Posted by doog, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 12:05:06 PM
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'The world will never be at peace while we have religious groups in the world.'
yeah doog maybe we need a few more Stalin's or mao tse tung's or abortion clinics. Try thinking a little.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 12:41:16 PM
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Joe, you asked what does the fleet do next ?

Well how is this theory for starters;
They just sit there and when the ROK fires a missle out over the sea
they just shoot it down.
Oh look, the madman Kim fired a missile at our fleet in international waters !
So we shot it down.

BTW one theory going the rounds is that the missile that failed was
zapped with enough signal that its computer thought it was lost and aborted.
Alternatively the US has monited enough data to work out was is the abort command.
Now that could be considered fun not war !
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 3:12:04 PM
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Even an attempt to launch a threatening weapon is enough for retaliation I would say, and at a time of their choosing.

Things have to come to a head it may as well be now. If North Korea target Savilions in steed of military targets. Giv it to them that will break their back.
Posted by doog, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 5:16:46 PM
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Hi Bazz,

You mean PDRK, not ROK ?

Well, a lot can go wrong with that: unless they get up above the 38th Parallel, I don't think the PDRK would send them a missile, and if they did, it may be quite understandable, even in international law: if, say, the Russians sent a fleet down the East Coast of Australia, we might regard that as an unfriendly act.

And what if the fleet's air defences miss ? Or worse, the DPRK DON'T fire off a missile ?

This is my point: that the fleet has to stop some time, and then just sit there, ducks in a pond.

So where's the 'strategy' in all that ? It's a bit like a dog chasing a bus, a lot of bluff, until someone presses a button. But what if the PDRK just sits tight and does nothing ? The Yanks will have to go back home, unless they get a bit too close, or do something stupid.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 6:42:26 PM
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Ahhh, yes Joe of course DPROK, well if they do just sit there and the
DPROK do not fire a missile, well that's good, they do not get to test
their hardware and their program is delayed. That is a gain.

They have previously fired their rockets towards Japan and they
fall in the sea of Japan.
The US probably hope that they do a test so they can shoot it down and
get a look at their hardware, if possible.
Perhaps that is what it is all about.
Also if they are there they will be able to get accurate radar images
of each class of missile. Although possibly they have done that already.
There could be much useful info that could be collected up close.
In test mode there would be lots of telemetry available.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 10:58:45 PM
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