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The Forum > General Discussion > Has the time come for

Has the time come for

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Given the failure of the SA power network due to insufficient baseload generation, the looming closure of Hazelwood that would Victoria with a peak power deficit, and power prices soaring, it is time to look at building relatively cheap and efficient baseload generation.

Given that for the short to medium term that nuclear power will remain unpalatable for the electorate, and the soaring price of gas, the use of coal in as efficient a manner as possible seems to be the most viable option.

Advances in boilers and generators have enable huge advances in efficiency over designs from a few decades ago with the new super critical power stations designs producing power 20% more efficiently than designs a few decades ago, 40% more efficiently than the 40yr old black coal generators that make up much of NSW's existing fleet, and producing roughly 1/3rd of the GHG of brown coal plants like Hazelwood.

For example, replacing the existing coal fired power stations with new super critical units would more than meet the reductions given by the 23% renewables target by 2020 without the angst or expense.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 2:13:31 PM
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Well of course we had cheap and efficient base load power before the climate maniacs put a stop to it. Yes, SM, back to the future.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 3:32:29 PM
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Greens religion wants us going back 200 years. And they have the nerve to call themselves 'progressive'. Still the people including conservatives have allowed the swamp to be filled with deviants, pseudo scientist and spoilt young brats. How gutless the Liberals were to allow the tax payer funded abc to get away with its socialist dogmas for years. Now we are all paying. The swamp is full and desperately needs draining. People are so deperate they are now turning to Pauline. Sad that it has come to this.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 3:45:15 PM
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It seems that the gas generator operator said he needed 4 hours to get going but later that night said: no, it only needed 1 hour. Then too much was switched off when some reserve power was available. It appears the humans were the nut behind the wheel.
Posted by nicknamenick, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 4:28:03 PM
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The whole energy target is a complete and utter sham, because even if we did reduce our coal usage, in fact, if we turned the lights out completely, it would hardly make one iota of a difference and, if we turn to smarter battery power, guess who's going to make these, using more coal fired energy in the process, supplied by guess who, us! It's a joke beyond belief.

I think we are at grave risk of being taken over by city dwelling apartment dwellers who's biggest choice in the day is 'decaf, or regular', as they wonder how they are going to cope working their 9-5 jobs. I guess they will first have to succeed with their blind-sided quest, and lose their jobs before they realise we are a nation, that without coal, will make them realise just how significant their daily choice was.

Perhaps it's already too late and these people have to forgo their late', borrow or hire an electric car, go for a long drive to where the farms and mines are and see just what is behind so much of their lives they take for granted.

Perhaps we need a mandatory education course for those entering the workforce and call it 'what makes my country tick'. Because these city dwellers, who make up the lion share of activists, are just so out of touch it's not funny. They also need to be made aware we export well over 50% of what we produce, because we have to.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 5:00:54 PM
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I was expecting some greenie trotting off how no one will invest in coal fired power stations when Germany, China and Japan are building over 100 of these high efficiency stations to meet their baseload needs.

I think the greens want to take us back to the age of candles.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 5:14:45 PM
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Oh for god's sake. All the usual suspects sitting in a row blaming renewable energy all the while the most gas resource rich country in the world looks like having to import gas to serve its homes and businesses and energy companies.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-24/having-spent-200b-to-export-lng-is-australia-about-to-import/8055164

All because successive governments of either stripe were so beholden to unrestricted markets they let big multinational companies plunder this nation's abundant gas supplies and tie them up for many years to come.

The Americans banned energy exports for over 30 years to protect their homes and business. Not our lot of mongrels though. Too enamoured by fossil fuel dollars they have failed us miserably. Now, to hide their absolute dereliction of duty, they are sending their sycophants out to bash renewables.

Gas was always regarded as a bridging resource to a renewable future. That has been stripped from us in this country and we are reaping the consequences.

A pox on the lot.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 5:33:40 PM
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Dear Steele,

Please don't ever leave this forum.

Your posts are the breath of fresh air that is
so needed around here. Thank You.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 6:13:08 PM
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I think the greens want to take us back to the age of candles.

SM, I suggest the majority of those who you speak of are either non working 'tree huger s' or so highly paid that they are unaware of the rising costs of living in general.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 6:46:45 PM
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Dear Foxy,

We have both had the occasion to take sabbaticals from OLO, and I do recognise a certain combativeness in my returned persona that I'm uncomfortable with, but in the end we are both back at it.

If truth be known I'm probably not that far removed from many of the OLO regulars. Being white, male, over 50 and showing increasing signs of cantankerousness I would probably just agree to disagree if we were having a yarn in a pub. There are one or two I would give a miss but on the whole they are not a bad bunch and the anonymity of the forum gives them a place to revel in a pugnaciousness they probably don't exhibit elsewhere.

You my dear Foxy have for the most part remained even tempered and even handed despite serious provocation and the place is far better for you presence so do hang around as long as you can.

Dear rehctub,

I really don't get you sometimes. Unlike Shadow Minister you are not a fully wedded on party hack and you have shown you are prepared to take things on face value rather than some ideological bent, so why aren't you all over this? Successive governments have sold us out big time on gas, one of the major drivers of the local economy. Australians are facing prices that are higher than what our gas sells in Japan and all you are focused on is whacking the Greens?

It was Obama who eased the ban on gas exports from the US last year and already their lawmakers are sounding warning bells on the impact on domestic prices doubling them within a year.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-27/u-s-could-follow-australia-in-singing-export-blues-on-gas

It is worth a read.

The reason why Australia is so stuffed is because these big international companies locked themselves into long term contracts which has meant they are not only selling our gas at far lower prices than what we are paying here, some like Santos are having to buy up gas earmarked for domestic supply because their production fell below that of the contracts they committed to.

Cont..
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 9:03:05 PM
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Cont..

The Yanks were a lot smarter than our bunch of drop kick pollies.

“The U.S. has an added line of defense. Australian LNG exporters contract to send gas directly to foreign customers with specific destinations, while U.S. exporters only sell the right to buy U.S. gas and chill it in their plants for loading. That means if U.S. prices ever rise above those in Asia or Europe, the exports can just stop.”

Why don't we have that?

The true reason why the second gas turbine at Point Piper in SA was not available to avert blackouts there? Domestic gas shortages and resultant high prices in the world's second largest natural gas exporter, us, are playing havoc with power generators and industry.

How having a crack at the real culprits. I will even give you a name, Martin Bloody Ferguson, ex-Labour Energy Minister now deep in the pockets of Dutch Shell. You want to know who he is blaming? State governments! He says removing fracking bans would bring more gas online thus lowering domestic prices. What a self serving idiotic argument? We already produce more than any other nation and if we upped production even further it would go in exactly the same direction.

Come on mate, have a think about this. If you do I'm sure you will be as pissed off as I am, not only because of what has happened on the ground but with the pack of lies we are being fed by our leaders. We needed politicians who would look out for Australian households and businesses like they have in the US. We didn't get them and now look at us.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 9:04:51 PM
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Jack boot john sold off gas for the next 500 years at 5 cents/ ltr to japan.
Posted by doog, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 10:08:35 PM
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Dear Steele,

I agree with you about most of the posters on
this forum. They are a great bunch. I guess
what I was trying to say but did not do such
a great job was that I enjoy reading your posts.
You are able to get to the crux of the discussions.
I would miss your contributions
very much and I'm glad that you continue to post.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 21 February 2017 10:49:43 PM
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I see our greenies can actually pee in their own pocket & rant simultaneously. WOW!

The last thing we need is gas back up for damn fool windmills. Even the Danes & the Germans have realised they have gone off half cocked & rushed down a very false technological side track with windmills.

They are building coal fired power houses while backtracking just as fast as they can from windmills without actually admitting what fools they have been. Just what we will do, sometime, once we get rid of the scam & the suckers who've believed it.

Some of the scientists have been swallowing brave pills, & hundreds of them are writing papers refuting the CO2 bogeyman, & they are getting these papers published now. Some recent German research have matched the suns activity more accurately to our climate. Surprise, surprise the very thing that stops the earth from being a ball of ice, actually does the warming. Who would have thought it, other than those who looked at the Dalton & Maunder minimum honestly.

It won't be long before no one, except perhaps doog & steely will utter the word windmill without blushing.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 12:09:30 AM
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The Forums 'Usual Suspects' now realizing dirty coal is no longer a viable means of producing our energy requirements have in their wisdom, discovered a new panacea, they are calling it clean coal.
Although it looks and acts very much like dirty coal, it seems according to these new found experts, clean coal is the way to go!

Unfortunately like so many other childish wonders 'clean coal' does not actually physically exist. The now failing dirty coal industry has created an advertising slogan, called "clean coal" to help revive its totally discredited product. Big Coal, is becoming desperate, and of course like they always do. our gang of misguided forum fools are falling dutifully in line to sing the praises of this mythical product.

In our neck of the woods, we have a ridiculous Prime Minister now trying to sell the advantages of this nonsensical clean coal. Silly as it would be to give the tobacco industry health dollars to build faster fag producing machines. Turnbull is advocating diverting environmental dollars away from Australia's $10 billion green bank and giving it to the dirty coal industry, to help it clean up its filthy act. "Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg confirmed the government is considering issuing a new ministerial directive to the Clean Energy Finance Corporation to put investment in so-called "clean coal" on the table."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/green-bank-could-fund-coal-under-malcolm-turnbull-rule-changes-20170219-gugb4i.html
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 4:53:20 AM
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Maunder minimum is a "messy thing" and there are conflicting events in it. "The current solar cycle 24 is the lowest sunspot cycle in 100 years and the third in a trend of diminishing sunspot cycles. Solar physicists expect cycle 25 to be even smaller than Cycle 24 and expect the sun to move into a new minimum, comparable with the Dalton or even the Maunder Minimum." Warmer is cooler so they say.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 7:38:31 AM
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SR,

The banning of energy exports by the US in 1970s given the huge energy deficit was the equivalent of the Saudi's banning the export of ice, and had little to no effect on energy producers in the USA or their profits. A similar ban in Aus which is a large net exporter of energy would be catastrophic and reminiscent of the protectionist idiocy that turned a major market correction in the US to a world wide depression. Secondly the majority of gas exports are from the north WA or Queensland from where there is little or no infrastructure to pipe gas elsewhere or even to ship it to other states, and thirdly, in the EU the gas fired back up generators have been the first to fail as their financial operating model is the most affected by intermittant renewables.

The net result of such idiocy in Aus would be the loss of tens of thousands of jobs and tens of $bns p.a. in lost tax revenue, and the worldwide increase in carbon emissions and misery as alternate energy sources are used. Fortunately, not even the labor party is so stupid.

Paul,

Given that one of the prime need of businesses to succeed is a cheap reliable electricity supply, the model that SA labor has employed is a dismal failure. As the network experts have clearly stated that an excessive weighting of intermittant renewables puts the network stability at risk, and SA's electricity prices are highest in Aus (close to the highest in the world)

To any reasonable person, building a power station that could provide reliable and relatively cheap power for 1/3rd of the emissions of Hazelwood would seem a reasonable compromise, but unfortunately the Greens can in no way be described as reasonable.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 8:23:59 AM
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'Clean Coal' ...aka "picking up a turd by the clean end." Ditto the use of Uranium. Australian politicians, all of them, have and continue to, sell us out in regards to resources and primary industries. No surprise to read SR's comment about ex ministers getting plum jobs overseas.

'Safety' (as defined) in any of the oil/gas/resources maintenance, construction & support industries I have worked in over the past 15 years is simply this: " A risk mitigation strategy designed by lawyers at the behest of insurers to limit the losses to ordinary shareholders."

All too many times I've see the pious looks, bowed heads & the crocodile tears shed at morning toolbox meetings. The Superintendents, the Mine Managers wringing their hands bemoaning the death of "so & so" due to some 'avoidable accident'. In all those years I've yet to see one of them give up their "productivity bonus" or "tonnages met" cheques to the widows or families of the deceased.

I have absolutely no doubt that some time into the future a catastrophe on the scale of Fukashima will visit our shores, it is but human nature for anything else to happen. Recently I worked with a geo-engineer who had been in the CSG industry with Halliburton and his prediction of current wells being fracked was; that in less than 50 years all ground water sources (world wide) would be undrinkable. What a legacy.

The renewable energy generation sector has a long way to go, but it will only be allowed to do so when the Fossil Fuel Fossils get off their polished mahogany chairs and release their grip on the monopolies crushing and stifling innovation.

Stay tuned for more pollie waffle, jobs for the fat cats and ground rhinocerous horn fuelled holidays in the Bahamas - courtesy of your local mega corporation and Messrs Graft & Corruption.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 9:45:07 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

You do sift through this stuff with such a jaundiced eye don't you.

I have never advocated for a complete ban but rather for a legislated proportion to be kept for Australians to heat our homes, drive our businesses and power our electricity at a cheaper price than what we export it.

Look at the price of petrol in Saudi Arabia .24 USD per litre. Turkmenistan, Kuwait, Iran, Equador Bahrain, Qatar, Kazakhstan, Oman, UAE and Malaysia are all sub .50 USD. Even the USA is sub .70 because of its own production.

These countries have protections in place so their own citizens are not paying world parity prices for a resource they're abundant in. Why it is okay for us to pay top dollar for natural gas while being the world's second largest exporter?

The ban was designed to shield the US from the actions of OPEC and from huge jumps in world prices and it did just that. Domestically the US was paying a fifth of the international price for natural gas and as Andrew Liveris, CEO of Dow Chemical explains “So, when natural gas is not solely used as an export, and is used as a building block for manufactured goods, it creates eight times more value across the entire economy. In this way, American’s natural gas bounty is more than a simple commodity. It’s a once-in-a-generation opportunity to export advanced products and not just BTUs.”

You wrote;

“the majority of gas exports are from the north WA or Queensland from where there is little or no infrastructure to pipe gas elsewhere or even to ship it to other states”

Rubbish. Did you even read the article? Most of the Queensland production is accessible to the eastern states. Santos brought up gas destined for the local market to honour long term contracts with overseas businesses. The Japanese are paying cheaper prices than us even though WA fields are a lot closer to the east coast of Australia than Japanese ports.

How about thinking of Australian families and businesses rather than slavishly worshiping free markets?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 9:58:07 AM
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SR,

The main reason that gas in the US and Saudi is so cheap in comparison is that the government imposes a series of taxes on petrol. Without these Aus prices would be well below US70c.

So you are simply advocating that the government abandon the constitution and appropriate the gas at below market price by forcing the owners to sell at below market prices. Then it could continue the trend by confiscating all property and forcing people to work for the state at slave wages, then we would have a socialist paradise.

If the government simply scrapped its stupid moratorium on CSG, the country could be awash with cheap gas.

P.S. I notice that coke amatil is abandoning South Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-22/coca-cola-amatil-to-close-adelaide-factory-sa-asx/8291986
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 10:50:12 AM
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Paul and Steel, if we stop exporting coal, and lets face it, it does not matter whether its burned at home or abroard, if we do stop coal exports, what do you suggest we turn to to fill the void for one, and replace the thousands of lost jobs.

A 'wish list' is all but a dream unless there is a contingency plan to manage the fallout.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 10:57:46 AM
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Rechtub,

The greens would have all the unemployed basket weaving.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 11:36:35 AM
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or making traps so that feral cats can be trapped, neutered and released!!
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 12:23:05 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“If the government simply scrapped its stupid moratorium on CSG, the country could be awash with cheap gas.”

Oh that is complete bunkum and you know it.

We are awash with gas, more than any other country. But it isn't cheap here because it has been locked into export contracts by international companies.

“All eastern Australia states have experienced a period of substantial rises in wholesale gas prices during the last three to five years. The development of three LNG projects in Gladstone has been a major factor contributing to these increases. “
http://industry.gov.au/Energy/Energy-information/Documents/Gas-Price-Trends-Report.pdf

The WA government at least has the good sense to mandate 15% of production for domestic use but both it and QLD have suffered sharp spikes in domestic prices as export contracts have been put in place.

You either don't get it or are being willfully ignorant.

Dear rehctub,

Maybe you missed what I posted earlier to you;

Do you think we should have policies that will protect our households, our businesses and our power companies from high gas prices by mandating a percentage of production be kept for domestic use?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 12:24:57 PM
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There is a saying;
We must leave oil and coal before they leave us.
Nothing said on here takes into account that WORLD peak coal is now.
China is closing non economic mines, many old US coal mining areas
are now decrepit towns. They extended their time by mountain topping.
Australia is different, we have much as yet untapped coal resources.
We can reserve much of it for our own use while we learn from overseas
experience how to cope without coal.

Very little of the discussion on here as well as elsewhere takes into
account the decline in coal production.
Oil is starting to become too expensive to extract with Shell diverting
to gas operations and Exxon Mobile cutting back in areas such as oil sands.
The fossil fuel industries are facing major restructuring.
Have a look at oil industry financial reports, it is not pretty.
Amazingly in our discussions both in places like this and in politics
just does not even get a mention !
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 12:44:33 PM
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SR,

You are seriously missing the point. The new HELE ultra critical power plants offer power generation at emission levels that approach that used by peak clipping gas generators. A mix of generation made from 60% HELE coal fired generators, 30% wind and solar and 10% hydro and other renewables would emit about 40% of what we presently do as compared to purely renewables backed up with gas generators which would emit about 20% and cost twice as much.

Similarly I am not disputing that the gas prices have risen because of high overseas demand, however, as you have admitted, there is no shortage of gas available, so a mandate that x amount is supplied domestically is not the point. What you want is for the government to legislate to steal the gas from the suppliers by forcing them to sell below market price to subsidise domestic users.

The law in the country presently requires that while the government can commandeer property, it is legally required to compensate the owner at market rates. It is the same legislation that prevents the government from forcibly buying your house to build a new road and paying you $1.

http://cornerstonemag.net/setting-the-benchmark-the-worlds-most-efficient-coal-fired-power-plants/
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 2:21:25 PM
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Why is it that o one points up the problem with 50% renewables ?
It does not seem to be understood that have to have 100% base load
generators as well. So you have to build plant that costs and the
maintenance costs 150% of otherwise.
Then they jump up and say, "Oh we can have storage !".

Well that is true, but just how big does it have to be ?
If one morning there is heavy overcast and no wind, then it has to be
100% of 24hrs demand.
Oh ! catch; as well as supplying today's demand it has to recharge the storage.
So it has to be 200% of a days supply.
Oh ! catch, what if the next day is overcast and no wind ?
So it needs to be 300% of a days supply.
But it needs to be able to charge up the next sunny windy day,
another 100%, ie 400% of a days supply.

Oh dear, this storage business gets very expensive does it not ?

I have never seen any discussion on these factors.
Does it just crash the whole idea of renewables ?
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 3:39:00 PM
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More:
Of course you can have very large dams at significant height and they
can hold perhaps several weeks of 100% supply. Then if the statistics
of the weather and rainfall permits, it can be a winner.
Is there such a place where we could "waste" that much fresh water or
can we make a suitable large enough dam for ocean salt water.
How much would it cost ?
What effect would all this have on your electricity bill ?

No one seems to put this sort of thing to the public.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 3:50:52 PM
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rehctub,

One of the nice features of a market economy is that the government doesn't have to pick winners. It can just run expansionary economic policies and the market will do the rest.
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 4:56:13 PM
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Nah, the market closed down the gas generator , no profit in it and consumers get what is good for the investors' asset.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 5:26:21 PM
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nicknamenick,
There have certainly been lots of market failures in the NEM, and as I wrote on another thread, more government participation is likely to be the best solution.

That does not alter the fact that a market economy does not require central planning to determine what the next big industry will be.

____________________________________________________________________________________

Bazz,
"It does not seem to be understood that have to have 100% base load
generators as well"
Why do you persist with this lie?

The amount of backup capacity needed is unrelated to baseload demand. And it certainly doesn't have to be from power stations so crap at varying their output that they have to be dedicated to providing baseload supply.

As for how much storage is needed: calm overcast days are rare, and they're certainly not the conditions with the highest demand. And there is scope for demand management as well. It's really a case of Cross That Bridge When You Come To It. We don't yet know what we'll require, but it's unlikely to be a significant constraint until renewables supply well above 50% of demand.
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 11:09:42 PM
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Aidan,

What drivel, you clearly have no idea. Given the huge damage done to the economy each time there is an unplanned outage, the minimum requirements for a network should be:

To meet peak load requirement under all normal circumstances assuming that at least one generation source is incapacitated or out for maintenance. Note that peak demand normally occurs between 5-8pm when there no solar and low wind conditions are considered normal operating conditions.

In this capacity SA failed miserably. SA labor created the conditions under which the cheapest and most reliable power generators had to run under conditions which maximised their costs and minimised their revenue forcing their closure. The inevitable result is that SA has the most expensive and unreliable power in the country, and probably the OECD.

There is no wonder businesses are fleeing.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 23 February 2017 4:24:34 AM
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All that you need is a wonderful Teslar Generator.

See:http://tesla-energy.org/
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 23 February 2017 7:05:17 AM
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Here is the reality for the SA economy:

"The heads of some of the nation’s biggest companies have blasted the chaotic state of the power grid with one, BHP Billiton chief executive Andrew Mackenzie, warning the nation’s renewable energy schemes could raise costs and reduce power security while having no impact on emissions.

The head of the world’s biggest miner has warned that a long-term expansion of Olympic Dam may not go ahead if power security and costs are not ­addressed and this will probably need carbon capture and storage if emissions cuts are also wanted.

BHP Billiton took a $US105 million ($137m) cost hit at the Olympic Dam copper and uranium mine in South Australia after recent blackouts.

“Let’s talk about affordability, reliability and emissions reduction, as opposed to having some secondary target about just having more renewables, which might deny you all three,” Mr Mackenzie said in London last night after releasing a first-half profit of $US3.2 billion ($4.15bn).

“We have lost $US100m in this period because of the intermit­tency of power in South Australia, and also we are facing more ­expensive electricity, frankly, than we budgeted for at this time last year.”

Mr Mackenzie warned that the ­nation’s unreliable power infrastructure could stop a planned ­expansion of Olympic Dam."
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 23 February 2017 8:32:30 AM
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Oh Aiden, don't be silly !
EVERYDAY at 5PM there is NO solar output. (winter of course)
If it is a still period, or even light winds then without 100% backup
there is not enough generation of electricity to avoid load shedding !
Do you understand that ?
I would have thought that was obvious !
This situation WOULD occur every day at sunset even if there was 100% solar & wind.
Ask a sailor, the wind dies at sunset EVERY day.
I have had to motor back to my mooring enough times to know that.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 23 February 2017 11:02:33 AM
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What a shame that SA didn't connect to the NSW grid as was planned years ago.

Instead the then-Government decided not to spend the $80million needed (now about a billion dollars) and privatise it instead to make a quick buck and just leave the problem for the new owners and consumers.

Also, the president of the World Bank recently stated that it was crazy that governments were still driving the use of coal, oil and gas by providing subsidies.

Meanwhile Malcolm Turnbull subsidises the fossil fuel industry with (according to IMF estimates) $1,712 per Australian a year, or $41 billion of taxpayer funds.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/australia-still-subsidising-fossil-fuels-at-rate-of-1712-per-person-a-year-33164/

This includes exploration funding for Geoscience Australia and tax deductions for mining and petroleum exploration.

The IMF calculates that Australians subsidisation of the fossil fuel industry account for hidden adverse costs spread out across the states and the ATO that ultimately come out of taxpayers’ pockets.

It's known that "clean" coal is just a marketing con but the idea that "cheap" coal exists as a permanent solution is also as misleading.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 23 February 2017 11:09:00 AM
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Aiden said;
It's really a case of Cross That Bridge When You Come To It.

That is what has got us into our present mess.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 23 February 2017 11:17:30 AM
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Hear, hear, Bazz.

Nice to hear there is no affordable, scalable storage solution, here or on the horizon, only blind faith that there will be one.

Further, Aidan opines , "We don't yet know what we'll require, but it's unlikely to be a significant constraint until renewables supply well above 50% of demand."

At 50%, the cost and scale of any current storage technology just for load balancing alone is astonishing, let alone for days or weeks of insufficient wind and sun.
Posted by Luciferase, Thursday, 23 February 2017 12:20:39 PM
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Indeed Luciferase, I read an article where this guy calculated that if
he connected the batteries of all the cars in the world and all the
mobile phone batteries in the world to the world grid it would work for

wait

9 seconds !

Now that may not be correct, but it might be 15 seconds or 3 seconds !
Anyway I think the point is that doing it with batteries is going to
be far too expensive.
As you have seen my question about backup and sunless days seems to be embarrassing.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 23 February 2017 2:58:41 PM
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That's without the cars running? So if it had supply output to meet demand then it would be a winner. Local fracking with minimal damage to rock supplies gas for cars without fuel impurities and super conducting cable is no problem . Mobile batteries as reserves for the odd trip down the road.
Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 23 February 2017 4:06:09 PM
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Anyone else getting the Tesla Generator add?

I guess that it's a scam.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 23 February 2017 8:54:42 PM
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Steel
Yes, I do, but we still have to eat.

The reality is, and it's not likely to change, we have a huge country, with a tiny population, all with huge appetites. Therefore our only answer is exports.

Aidan, I am assuming you're referring to your theory that we have unlimited debt at our bec and call.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 24 February 2017 3:51:41 AM
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