With the celebration of Australia’s national day on January 26th being so divisive within the community, and for many lacking in significance, it has been suggested that a new day to express our national pride in being Australian should be undertaken. Few Australian’s have much in common with the arrival of Arthur Phillip and his band of convicts, soldiers, other employees of the British Crown and a few free settlers on this date in 1788. In our diverse and multicultural society a celebration that is based on a British event in Australia’s history seems out of place today, another date to recognize all Australians would be much more appropriate.

With Australia almost certain to make constitutional recognition of the first Australians law, that will be the day when all Australians are recognized as truly equal. Then that day should be the day of national celebration, A day which is inclusive of all, the first Australians, native born Australian’s, and those new Australian’s who have chosen to make this country home.

I've got an idea; let the people vote on it;in conjunction with the next Federal Election, (to cut down on the cost).

For the Lucky Country it's Friday 13th. We never defeated an invasion, had a revolution or got a new king. Britain ruled the world and has no national day. Australia day does nothing but upset the landlords every 26 January, no-one knows the words of "girt by sea" and furthermore and.....

personally I care little about what day Australians celebrate. The aboriginals who like a sniff of truth must be rejoicing that the British built homes, roads, planted trees and crops, built hospitals and police stations. Especially pleased must be the young girls and women. They must be pleased to be free from much savagery from the past.

Dear Paul,

Australia is a great country to live in and I think that's
worth celebrating. We can't change the past all we can
do is accept the present and try to improve the future.
Australia brings communities together. It brings people
together and it celebrates the good this country has
provided. Changing the date of Australia Day won't change our
past. But if people want it changed - why not wait until
we become a Republic. Now that would make sense and be worth
celebrating.

Some have suggested we celebrate April 25th as our National Day. But it hardly seems appropriate to have our national Day on the date a bunch of Pommy Generals ordered Australia to launch an ill-fated invasion of Turkey in 1915. Besides we couldn't do it on our own we had to drag the New Zealanders along with us, other wise it would just be AAC Day now.

Anzac when the water was red with Australians' blood and the leadership was virtually criminal, in the inquiry. A bit similar to 26 January probably. Republic day will be when the pollies argue for 8 1/2 months about xyz and sign a paper. boring...

I don't give a damn when we celebrate it.

However I do want to see it celebrated by rounding & deporting, all people not Australian born, not primary caregivers or students, who have lived here for 2 years or more, & never paid any tax.

Those people are either useless or shonks, or both, that the country would be much better without.

Paul,

"....
a bunch of Pommy Generals ordered Australia to launch an ill-fated invasion of Turkey in 1915...."

What about the British and French troops, forgetting them?

Before I forget...

Happy Chinese New Year!

Anyone doing anything special?

OP, "With the celebration of Australia’s national day on January 26th being so divisive within the community, and for many lacking in significance"

That is the logical fallacy of begging the question.

-"Begging the question" is a form of logical fallacy in which a statement or claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself. (Wiki)

There always will be knockers and stirrers. Some have their snouts in the public trough. They have made careers out of sniping, moaning and bellyaching. Here are some examples,

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/ct-editorial/trouble-and-strife-in-the-greens-20170126-gtznqj.html

Foxy,

Great idea, Happy Chinese New Year to you and all and especially to the lemony misery makers.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2017/01/year-rooster-millions-chinese-year-170128052310196.html

We usually do something but nothing planned this year. Still, it is never too late to have fun.

Dearest Foxy,

Vietnamese New Year too ! Chuc Mung Nam Moi !

Probably Thai New Year as well, but I don't know the Thai expression (:

Love,

Joe

"With Australia almost certain to make constitutional recognition of the first Australians law, that will be the day when all Australians are recognized as truly equal. Then that day should be the day of national celebration,"

almost certain? I admire your confidence, if not your understanding.

Still the idea has merit....so long as we hold the referendum on 26 January. :)

National Day (Vietnamese: Ngày Quốc Khánh) is a national holiday in Vietnam observed on September 2, commemorating the Vietnam Declaration of Independence from France on September 2, 1945. It is the country's National Day.
Down with France! Out with la Perouse and his frog sailors , long live Vietnamese Australian co-prosperity and no lemons.

Sawatdie pii mai Happy new year.

maybe we should ask the moslems what date would suite them.

Probably 31 October when the Arab states came into existence.
" The battle of Beersheba took place on 31 October 1917 . The final phase of this all day battle was the famous mounted charge of the Australian 4th Light Horse Brigade. Commencing at dusk, members of the brigade stormed through the Turkish line to break the Ottoman line ."

Thanks, Doog ! I'll pass it on :)

Hi Nick,

Yeah, my grand-dad was in there somewhere, in the 2nd Remounts. With Banjo Paterson, he reckoned.

Joe

I looked up the Calendar of Cultural and Religious
Dates in Australia on the web and was so surprised
to see how many various Days for celebration there
were that were important to people from various
ethnic backgrounds. Then I remembered one particular
day that our entire street used to celebrate back
in the 1970s when I was growing up and I wonder how
many other people may remember that day. "Bonfire Night?"
November 5th.

Our entire street used to take part in building a huge
bonfire in the paddock at the bottom of the street. We'd
collect anything that would burn and pile it up into a
huge stack. Then at night all of us kids would have our
paper bags full of crackers like Catherine wheels,
double-bungers, jumping jacks, sky rockets, and we'd light
them and have fun with the bonfire set alight.

Of course that event was cancelled for safety reasons.
However, I can't remember anyone getting seriously burned
or hurt. Those were fun times.

It is deemed important that no child should be placed at risk with fireworks.

It is preferable that children have 'safer' risk-taking options, such as drugs and gang membership.

Similarly, no young teen should ever be allowed to plink paper in the backyard with a Daisy air rifle.

People are very good at restricting the behaviour of others and always for their own good - which we can take as read, of course.

Dear leoj,

Talking about fireworks.

I remember witnessing an incident when my older
brother managed to persuade his younger cousin
too stick a thick firecracker in the
younger cousins ear. My brother was about to light
the cracker in his cousin's ear when his dad walked
in and stopped the near catastrophe. Imagine what
would have happened if these kids would have succeeded.

"Banjo Paterson .. worked for a while driving ambulances for the Australian Voluntary Hospital. In 1915 he returned home and was commissioned in the AIF and sent to the Middle East. Experienced with horses, he was promoted to major and commanded the Australian Remount Squadron."
never knew that, interesting.

Foxy,

How does your brother check the fuel in the mower, the keenness of tools, or whether the power is really on?

The neighbour was outside in the dew this morning, in thongs using a spade. His children are obese. They spend their time indoors. That is safer than riding bikes.

Electric hedge trimmers tell you when the wire is cut . They stop. Fitting a new power plug is a worry if the 3 point pin is attached to the live wire. Luckily I noticed.

Dear leoj,

That particular brother of mine lives in
Byron Bay. He has a magnificent house and
garden so I guess he's doing all right.
I keep getting photos from him of the
beautiful array of wildlife that frequent
his garden. My favourites are the family of owls
and the most unusual native birds to numerous
to mention here. I end up framing the photos.
He's a lovely bloke, and I'm very proud of him.

For those members of the out of touch brigade, and I see we have several on the forum. You know who you are, the ones that still hanker for those good old colonial days of A.B.'Banjo' Paterson and his 'Man From Snowy River'. May I suggest that an appropriate day of celebration for the so inclined, could be May 24th, how appropriate, not only is it Queen Victoria's Birthday, it is also Empire Day, cracker night for the crass, two events of major significance in Australia's history that unfortunately are now sadly neglected. After a full day of culturally sensitive activities, including tug boat dancing, ferry boat racing, and having disorientated citizens wandering through a mirror maze, such fun. The day could be capped off with a finale of incendiaries, including tuppenny bungers, Roman candles, Catherine wheels, and sky rockets. Oh! the joy, I can hardly wait!

Paterson has banjos , on the river
The Paterson Festival on New Year's Eve is an event to be enjoyed by the whole family. In beautiful Tucker Park, beside the Paterson River, experience an exciting evening of live music, fireworks and children's entertainment with banjos.

The Outback Hippies keep the kids on their feet with a program of music and dancing from 6pm to 9pm. There's also slippery slides, laughing clowns, body tattooing and a free playground for the kids. Plus free balloons and lollies and banjos.

The main fireworks at 9pm allow the youngsters a chance to see a fantastic display lasting eight minutes. The Outback Hippies entertain you till midnight with their great blend of of rock, blues, roots and country. And on the stroke of midnight, celebrate the start of the New Year with a dazzling five minute fireworks display and banjos.

Food and drinks are available to purchase. There are barbecue steak sandwiches, pizza, fish, calamari, chips, beef rolls, delicious sweet treats, ice cream, coffee and more. Or, you can bring your own picnic and banjo.

This is a wonderful family night not to be missed!

Hi NNN, Sounds wonderful and so uplifting, a couple of questions;
Exactly where is Patterson? I could not find it on the map. Is there an express bus service to the event from Oodnadatta? Not that I live in Oodnadatta, but I thought it is the type of culturally sensitive celebration the Oodnadattians (natives of Oodnadatta) would want to attend. Also, and a big also this is, the culinary delights on offer sound absolutely yum dilly umess, however I note with some angst that there are no 'Dagwood Dogs' included on the menu, surly an oversight on your part. I also googled the event, and note with some poverty, there is a $5 entry fee, $15 for rich people, surly that can not be true. Also I do not have a banjo, but my partner owns five ukulele's, she wont miss one. Could I bring that to the event and celebrate A.B. 'Ukulele' Patterson instead.

Patterson is surly not in Victoria , he's Australian. But your spelling of Oodnadattians would make Banjo the Zither swing his stockwhip round and give a cheer . And a few jumping jacks and double bungers.

NNN. I am fast realizing that outside of myself, you are the most sensible contributor to the forum, bar none!

//Exactly where is Patterson?//

Hunter Valley, NSW. Google is more helpful when you spell things with the appropriate number of t's.

Yes he liked his tea twice a day.
School Canteen - Home - AB Paterson College | Private Co ...
https://www.abpat.qld.edu.au/index.php?page_id=73
Morning tea is available daily, and the Canteen also caters for teachers on student banjo development days and for other College events.

Foxy,

Fun times

"Of course that event was cancelled for safety reasons.
However, I can't remember anyone getting seriously burned
or hurt. Those were fun times."

and the event having been cancelled, the professionals took over, duly Government licenced----then the first firework fatalities occurred in Australia when a couple of professionals were killed.

Should be an Olympic sport , the Russian fireworks were pathetic with none of the performance you'd expect from medical additives.

Re Anzac, the troops were put ashore too far north onto hills backed
beaches instead of low ground.

Can anyone tell me of a more significant date in the last 100,000
years than 26th January 1788 ?

"Re Anzac, the troops were put ashore too far north onto hills backed
beaches instead of low ground.

Can anyone tell me of a more significant date in the last 100,000
years than 26th January 1788 ?"
Yeah the Turks at Port Jackson and the North Shore had cannons which were absent at Botany Bay. Although on 26 January there was heavy barbed wire around Kurnell and the refineries and maybe the secret adjustment in plans wasn't picked up on mobiles or the Corps signals at HQ.

Bravo to the Fremantle Councillors who junked January 26 as Australia Day.

How would the Poles take it if Germany designated September 01 "Germany Day" after the day in 1939 in which the Huns (not today's German people) launched the Blitzkrieg invasion of Poland?

Yet we celebrate the day when the British (not today's Australian people) invaded the continent we now all live on and were soon massacring the local population.

The day to commemorate as Australia Day is December 03, the day in 1954 when people from many birthplaces came together and fought as one against the British - an event crucial to the progress towards the modern Australia to which all ethnicities in our land belong today.

December 03 1854 not 1954

The fact is January 26th is New South Wales Day, as it was on this day in 1788 Governor Arthur Phillip proclaimed New South Wales as a British colony in the name of George III. There was no mention of Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, Western Australia, Northern Territory or Tasmania.
Until some time around 1901 the other colonies had little regard for events of 26th January 1788. So why call it Australia Day?

Come now, Julian, Eureka was a rising by mainly foreign men,temporarily in Australia in the hope of getting rich.

It has very little significance for Australia, absolutely none for Republicanism and has been hi-jacked for causes that were of some good and others that were nutty.

Read, Peter Fintan Lalor and Raffaello Carboni, they were both there.

Well it's at least 1/2 Australia Day as Philip took NSW to 135 longitude east, up the centre . But at Eureka it was not so clear-cut. Californian Rangers Revolver Brigade was 200 strong and just missed out on the action by 120 Irish and other colonials. With a bit more skill they could have made a run on Melbourne with all the public support and had New South California .

Re Is Mise

Foreigners who came to Australia to get rich could be described in today's terms as hardworking small businessmen. They formed a joint resistance against British laws and practices designed to bleed them white financially, to interfere with their work by a campaign of bullying (e.g. explore the British practice of frequent demands on miners to stop work and come to the surface to show their licences). The harassment was meant to provoke them, and it did at cost to the British gentry - leading to an organised rebellion with the effect of culminating quickly in the enfranchisement of the men as participants in evolving democratic society and Australian self-identification.

There's a good summary at http://www.sbs.com.au/gold/story.php?storyid=86 of what led to the rebellion against the British and its implications for Australian development - without having to become an academic scholar steeped in lengthy eyewitness accounts in order to come to valid conclusions.

The police who had to be stopped murdering prisoners after Eureka were not gentry. The British officer Pasley stopped them by threat of shooting those police.
Hers's a briefer history than Eureka blogs:

"1835. Australia’s first political party, the Australian Patriotic Association, was established under W. C. Wentworth. The party demanded democratic government for New South Wales.
1840
Australia’s first election was held on 31 October with the establishment of Adelaide City Council. Nearly 600 people cast votes.

1843
Australia’s first parliamentary election was held for the New South Wales Legislative Council.
Men with £200 free–hold or £20 annual value householders were allowed to vote.
1850
Elections for legislative councils were held in Victoria, South Australia and Tasmania.
4 years later .. Eureka!

I will be off to Merrylands this Saturday to celebrate with several thousand Kiwi's and others, New Zealand's nation day, at the annual Sydney Waitangi Day festival. The day is significant in New Zealand's history as it was on 6th February 1840 that the Maori Chiefs of Aotearoa, and the representative of the British Crown, Lieutenant Governor William Hobson, came together at Waitangi to sign a treaty of equality between two differing peoples, forming the nation of New Zealand. Something unfortunately Australia lacks to this day, unless of course you believe it all happened 26th January 1788.

Not in 1788 . Convicts were flogged but not Aboriginals. It took about 60 years to give British citizens equality with Aboriginals before the flogger. Finally flogging was abolished in NSW in 1974 and all Australians heaved a sigh of relief and equality.

"Something unfortunately Australia lacks to this day, unless of course you believe it all happened 26th January 1788"

A reasonable adult should be able to attend a celebration without stirring. However stirring is in the DNA of Greens, particularly the activist 'Eastern Bloc'.

Celebrate by all means, but Merrylands has had its ethnic problems and can do without cynical Greens' stirring that is only aimed at their political advantage, not the community's benefit.

Have a chat first with community liaison officers,http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_issues/cultural_diversity

Then again, the NSW Greens are trenchant critics of the police force. Again, to score political points in some quarters out of fostering controversy and division.

nicknamenick,
"Anzac when the water was red with Australians' blood..."
ITYF it was red with Poms' blood. The ANZACs had successfully made it ashore while it was still dark.

And (Bazz) the troops were put ashore where it was thought they had the best chance of success. The myth that it wasn't the planned location has been thoroughly debunked.

Hi Paul,

Come on, be honest: at Waitangi, the chiefs who signed were willingly putting their groups under a British 'Protectorate' and ceding sovereignty to the British Crown - not land ownership, just sovereignty. We both have Ngapuhi relations, you and I, but they seem to have been one of their greatest threats to those other Maori groups, isn't that so ?

Are you proposing that Aboriginal people should beaver away on a 'treaty' only in order to cede sovereignty ? Not that it would make any sense in 2017 or 2027 or 2037, or whenever it's finally drawn up, but it would keep many people busy for a very long time, negotiating terms for a fait accompli.

No., I think we should be focussing on 'reconciliation' rather than 'recognition', on coming together on just terms rather than any idiotic separation, which a treaty, a separate State, etc., would amount to. The vast majority of Indigenous people here live in towns and cities - perhaps 80 %, so what would a treaty or a separate State mean for them ? What an utter waste of time, resources, goodwill and sense.

One factor which desperately needs attention and reform is the employment of Indigenous people - IF they are funnelled into Indigenous units, even when they have mainstream qualifications and seek mainstream employment. This is as racist as buggery, and forces Indigenous people to pimp their Indigeneity in order to get at least some job. If a graduate happens to be Indigenous, and applies for mainstream position, but is offered only an Indigenous-oriented position, then that is racist, no two ways about it. Of course, the elites support that racist position, since it builds up their own power-base, and keeps potential numbers out of the mainstream.

There are many issues to be resolved besides pissy issues such as 'nations' (do it, organise it, if you want to) and a bogus 'treaty', let alone some dumb-dumb off-into-the-desert separate State. And that isn't a racist thought-bubble ?

Joe

Aidan
FYI, ITYF the first google is this:
Journey and landing - The Anzacs of Gallipoli
www.anzacsofgallipoli.com/journey-and-landing.html
The boat touched bottom some thirty yards from the shore so we had to jump out and wade into the beach.. ... We all ran for our lives over the strip of beach and got into the scrub and bush. ... place: some writhing in their last agonies; others with their life blood oozing out.”

You are probably thinking of the First Fleet 1788 where British blood and bone filled Sydney Cove and polluted the whales.

'invasion day' Which leftie benefited from thinking up such a dishonest description of the first fleet arriving? And now the dumbed down crowd just follow suite.

Hi Joe, good to speak again, yes to this day it is a moot point with many. Did the Maori cede sovereignty to the British as defined in the wording of the English version of the Treaty of Waitangi, or governance as defined in the Maori version. The Chiefs generally could not read English, and most signed the Maori version. It has been debated for more than 150 years. Even men of good will do not always get it right.
As per our last discussion on a treaty, I am still ambivalent about that. I agree the focus should be on reconciliation. remembering the past, but looking to the future.
The Ngapuhi cover about one third of all Maori, and were allied with the British. My partner remembers stories as a child of past raiding parties to The Waikato to capture women. Other tribes had a lot to fear from the Ngapuhi.

Leo, you obviously have never attended the annual Waitangi Festival at 'Holroyd Gardens' Merrylands, If you think it is some political gathering or whatever you think it is, you are wrong. Cultural displays, singing dancing etc, food stalls, goods for sale, and lots more. Come along if you can, you may enjoy yourself, but that might be asking too much, for a you know who.. Entry is by gold coin.

The post office , Sydney airport, Comonwealth bank and Manus Island leisure resorts and open air barbies are privatised . The US is also following this trend begun by Maoris who sub-contracted the prime minister job to Scottish shepherds and whale researchers . They have done useful work which freed the Maori to expand their horizons.

I Paul,

The NgaPuhi allies of the British ? Perhaps not when Hone Heke cut down the flag-pole ? Even less so, the second time ?

[We may be related: my brother married a NgaPuhi woman from Parakao, and has two beautiful daughters.]

BTT: My limited understanding is that the Treaty was signed by groups under threat from other, more powerful, Maori groups such as Te Rauparaha's, perhaps the Ngati Kahungunu and, forgive me, the NgaPuhi. They were anxious for British protection and prepared to recognise Victoria as their formal Head, i.e. British sovereignty, if it meant British protection of their lands. There was very likely a lot of misunderstanding about the equivalence of the hybrid word 'kawanatanga' - 'government (?)', and the Maori 'rangatiratanga' ('paramountcy'?)

So what such a 'treaty' would mean in 2017 for Indigenous Australians is a mystery. And yet another pointless chase down rabbit burrows.

Cheers,

Joe

Paul1405,

May the festival continue without political stirrers like the Greens Eastern Bloc trying to politicise it for their own ends.

Aboriginals lost the lot in one swallow of rum by Philip , no "please" or even "hey mate , gimme that". Could they perhaps be asked would they maybe have a small opinion or something about a treaty ? That they owned the mobile and wallet before the mugging. And answer " it's OK keep the thing if you need it so much"

Nick,

Struggling through the molasses of your probable wit, I have to point out that, from the 1840s, Aboriginal people had the explicit right to use the land as they had done since time immemorial -apart from the fact that they couldn't exclude anybody from what had been their exclusive control of land. But they could hunt, fish, gather and otherwise forage, make stone tools and fish traps, etc. to their heart's content. In South Australia, they could also gather around ration depots, particularly in the long and frequent droughts, passing on the culture.

If they had wished, they could have probably cultivated very-low-nutrition kangaroo grass seed as well, miles of it. Although, since it grows all over Australia, including Tasmania, I don't why they would want to. I suppose, once people get used to patrolling fence-lines day and night to keep out kangaroos, they find it's a habit hard to break.

Joe

Hi Nick,

Another thing: usually across all the Australian colonies, it was illegal to supply Aboriginal people with alcohol. It wasn't an offence for them to HAVE alcohol, but it would be taken from them.

Usually, in SA, men going out shearing from Missions would have their cheques (yes, equal wages) sent on by the grazier directly to the missionary, to pay for goods bought at the store etc. At Coranderrk Mission near Melbourne, the missionary pleaded with graziers to do the same: one season, the men from there earned the equivalent of about seventy thousand dollars and blew the lot in one night. Certainly they had nothing to bring back to their families.

People loved to play the game of evading the police: I recall that some sly-groggers would regularly park at the back of the Mission where my wife was born and hand over grog, for exorbitant prices. One time (at least), the blokes beat the daylights out of him.

Even after it was completely legal, people seemed to want to keep up the thrill of illegality: when I was young, cousins of my wife would come around - after 6 p.m., back in those days - and get me to come with them around to the sly-grogger. He had a huge fridge in his backyard and, yes, charged them exorbitant prices which they were happy to pay. There's nowt so queer as folk.

Joe

Joe
we've gone round and round on this.
If a man is mugged and his wallet is stolen, a doc gives him $10 for a train ticket home and the man gets drunk instead , he still had his wallet stolen. He shouldn't be told he must ignore it.
What you choose for lunch is not my business. What they choose on the matter of treaty is not my business , it's theirs.

Sorry Nick,

Sorry, who was mugged ? Who stole whose wallet ? Who gave whom $ 10 for a train ticket ? Who got drunk ? Whose lunch ?

Have you got the wrong thread ?

Joe

Hi Joe, you may well be a cuzzie bro, there are lots of em', will meet more on Saturday.

As for a 'Treaty of Bennalong', if such a document was warranted, and I still doubt that it is, I certainly would not model it on the 'Treaty of Waitangi', which was a "cut and paste" job of some documents the inexperienced treaty maker, poor old William Hobson had in his possession at the time.
Treaties then were a dime a dozen, how many treaties did the Great White Father in Washington make with the Native Americans, only to tear them up the next day. The most famous treaty of them of them all, was the you give me everything treaty, the 'Treaty of Versailles', and history shows that was not exactly a raging success.

Joe, what physically do you see as ideal, a formal document of some sort, I suppose that is has to be, eventually. Is it a 'Bill of Rights' or some other formal document, with lots of signings and pen swapping? Is it signed in pencil so the next incumbent can rub it out. Printed on thin paper so it is easy to tear up, invisible ink so no one can read it. I don't know.

cont

cont

Back on the 'Treaty of Waitangi' it was not so much the problem for The Maori, as was the 'New Zealand Settlements Act' of 1863, whereby the Colonial Government grabbed 16,000 sq km's of Maori land, as retribution and payment for the New Zealand Wars. then sold it off to European settlers. The wars had been rather costly for the British, the Maori put up a far better fight than the they had expected, at one time the British had 18,000 troops on the ground, against 4,000 or 5,000 warriors. In the end superior fire power won out for the British, but at a high price.

The Flag Pole story is interesting, an act of defiance, Hone Heke had signed the treaty in 1840, if not on 6th February certainly later. He was not happy with it, and when the government moved the capital from Okiato to Auckland in 1841, and introduced economics which disadvantaged Ngapuhi, Hone Heke was even less happy, he had already lost his right to collect a levy on whaling ships entering the Bay of islands. Americans in the region were influencing him to act against the British. So he did. On who sided with who, the British used a tactic of offering land and other incentives to various Maori chiefs if they would side with them, and some did.

Leo, did you say something?

Joe
Aboriginals had their lands taken over by Britain. You really can't see the parallel with a wallet? A treaty seems to be about recognition, not giving anything back or declaring an end to war. The discussion from Europeans view point is irrelevant , just as it's irrelevant to say you don't need plaster for a broken bone . The man with the fracture does need plaster.

( OK Joe. The Aboriginals are like having a broken leg when they lost land and cultures. the treaty is like plaster. the colour of the plaster is irrelevant . they don't have to give the plaster back when the bone heals. the plaster is on Medicare but Aboriginals don't need cash in a treaty . the treaty is not about Medicare )

Hi Nick,

When the British declared sovereignty over eastern Australia, they thereby recognised Indigenous people here as British subjects, entitled to all the rights and protections of British law. One of those was a recognition of how they were using the land, a right which was formalised by the Colonial Office in the 1840s. It's still the law, at least in SA.

I'm not suggesting that those rights were always honoured, obviously not, especially in western NSW and Queensland, in areas beyond official control. The eastern colonies didn't have anything like South Australia's ration system until much later in the nineteenth century, a system which seems to have eliminated conflict between Aboriginal people and advancing pastoralists.

Alongside that, the SA colonial government kept a much tighter rein on the boundaries of expansion. It's indicative that, by the late nineteenth century, the great majority of ration depots were on pastoralists' leaseholds (since they needed the labour of Aboriginal people), with store-rooms built by the pastoralists and rations given out with no reimbursement to pastoralists. One bloke did it for thirty seven years.

Actually, sometimes the building of ration depots coincided with the beginnings of pastoral activity, and clearly their purpose was to stop depredations - probably especially during droughts - by Aboriginal groups on farms and stations well inside the frontier. For example, the Kokatha people foraged around the Gawler Ranges in good times, but swept down into the Eyre Peninsula during hard times, sometimes almost to Port Lincoln, raiding and, yes, killing. The Protector set up a network of ration depots across the top of the Peninsula, at Wallianippie and Point Brown to the west, Paney in the centre, and a cluster of stations in the east. That seemed to work well.

I hope this helps.

Joe

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that information about Hone Heke. I wasn't aware of the influence of the Americans: I suppose they were well into whaling all around the New Zealand coastline and posed a threat to British control everywhere.

I'd supposed that the French were more of a threat - I think they had a Mission in the Bay of Islands, and a lot of influence through Bishop Pompallier (we lived next to Pompallier Street in Ponsonby for a year or so). [Wikipedia says he had set up sixteen missions around New Zealand by 1843, including one at Kororareka (Russell) in the Bay of Islands, a crucial hot-spot for the British. And one of the earliest printing presses to print anything in Maori (I suppose Kendall's Bibles in the 1810s were in English, maybe not). Pompallier was an amazing bloke.]

Is it possible that Hone Heke was pissed off with the British because they threatened his expansionist plans ?

Quite a fascinating few years :)

Cheers,

Joe

Joe
A mugger promises the victim that he can go to hospital and drives him there. Agrees not to take his wallet another time. Victim says thank you so very much , they swap email and hug like soccer players.
Nurses sing a chorus in Emergency room as the bleeding victim smiles at the mugger driving into the South Australian sunset.

Paul1405, "did you say something?"

You would not have written that if you had not read my posts.

The problem for you is that you have no rebuttal and can only act the fool.

It is a matter of fact that the NSW Eastern Bloc of the Greens are an embarrassment to the Party.

Greens leaders past and present are critical of the intransigence and outrageous hypocritical stirring of Greens property millionaires Lee Rhiannon and her acolyte, Shoebridge.

Rhiannon and Shoebridge are using vulnerable people to get what they want and are casual about the social mayhem they risk through their stirring.

It is very nasty of Rhiannon and Shoebridge to foment discontent among the vulnerable about the very system that they themselves have proved adept at taking advantage of. Not everyone is guaranteed the politician's golden handshake for life, the political contacts and the beaut entitlements they have for life (and for their partners and family too) and take for granted.

Forgetting their valuable property holdings, I wonder what value a professional insurance/superannuation would actuary would estimate for the public-funded future super, travel and other benefits of Lee Rhiannon for example?

What is it, not one but two whopping golden handshakes, State and federal, courtesy of both NSW and Australian taxpayers?

It must be mega millions. All gold-plated and guaranteed too.

However the burning issue, Shoebridge too, is the hypocrisy in taking so handsomely from the system she despises.

So Paul1405, are you a prospect in your own mind for a leg in on the game? Fat chance, the Greens elite have it all tied up.

The Greens, with their visceral hatred of democracy, are staring down the barrel of the cannon that blew the Australian Democrats' feet off - concentration of power away from the lay membership into the hands of pollies and appointed organisational officials.

E.g. the people of WA had voted in four successive referenda to reject the imposition of daylight saving, yet in the Legislative Council the Greens did not once proclaim that this was a direct democratic instruction that had to be followed but simply argued the pros and cons of daylight saving. A parallel is the uproar over Brexit with the spivs and insiders and papers like the Guardian continuing to demand that the direct popular vote to junk the EU be sidestepped with delays and amendments so that the Brussels mandarins remain in charge of Britain.

Bring on democracy - Binding Citizen-Initiated Referenda (BCIR) on all major or controversial decisions governing the lives of the people as a whole.

In the case of daylight saving the Liberal State Government (even the Libs FFS) finally took heed of public referendum decisions and abandoned daylight saving.

BTW there was another referendum result at the same time rejecting extensions of retail trading hours but that unexpected result came too close to the commercial interests of the Libs' sponsors so they overrode it.

Yes Joe, American whalers were very active in the South Pacific in the 1840's. The US had an official representative based at Okiato at that time. You are right about the French, the British were extremely suspicious of French activity. Like the Americans the French also had a large whaling fleet stationed in Aotearoa, both nations were not considered particularly friendly to the British. When a Frenchman Jean-Francis Langlois purchased i think 10,000 acres of Maori land in anticipation of establishing a French settlement at Akaroa in the South Island, the British become very alarmed. They beleived a possible French annexation of the whole South Island was at hand, Two months after the treaty was signed at Waitangi the British had the same treaty signed by many of the South Island chiefs, May 30th 1840, to counter the French, who's land was resold. One of the conditions of the treaty was all Maori land sales would only be to the British Crown. The French settlers ended up at Akaroa, but on British controlled land. One thing to put this into context the European population in New Zealand in 1840 was only about 2,000, Maori were 20 times that number. In 20 years the Europeans outnumbered the Maori.

My partner learned as a child weaving flax with her great grandmother that there is an American sailor, name unknown, in her ancestry, she also has a Chinese ancestor, the only two direct non Maori in her genealogy which includes a few paramount chiefs. No such royalty in my line.

LeoW, did you say something?

Hi Paul,

Thanks for all that history: fascinating. I should have known about the Yanks, because there were many down this way on Kangaroo Island long before official settlement in 1836, perhaps as far back as 1803. They even built a sea-going ship at, of course, American River.

There may have been some whaling stations on the mainland too, before 1836, along the south coast. Aboriginal women were taken to KI from the adjacent mainland, and from Port Lincoln, south-western WA, and from Tasmania, maybe even from New Zealand (I've read about a couple of Aboriginal women who were taken across to whaling stations in NZ, in the far south-west.) Two of my wife's gr-gr-grandparents were born on KI, both of their mothers were from the mainland nearby, from Kaurna and Ngarrindjeri country. History can be so interesting, truly amazing, can't it ?

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Joe, history id truly fascinating. A story my partner "T" learned from a local Aboriginal chap, was of a large raft that washed up around present day Coogee long before the time of Captain Cook. On this raft or "mokihi", as I've just been told, were very large men, some women and children, most in poor condition, some died. They did not speak a language that resembled any local dialect, their dress and appearance was also rather strange. In time they assimilated into the local tribe and proved to be good hunters and fishermen. Were they Polynesians or Maori, possibly, who knows.

Paul1405, (parroting) "did you say something?"

You are in denial.

Whatever you do, don't mention those wealthy Greens, eh, Paul? - Lee Rhiannon and the boy acolyte, Shoebridge, hanging from her trouser cuffs. How many other Greens are multimillionaires from their property investments? -Not to mention the income, entitlements and guaranteed future golden handshake from the taxpayers.

Any wonder the Greens like Rhiannon dress down when in public. Wouldn't want admit the reality, which is the the upper middle class Greens elite, the bourgeoisie, telling the proletariat how to live.

Any public disclosure before the Greens elite criticise the 'capitalist system' that they themselves take advantage of? Maybe not, eh?

The same Greens pose as the moral guardians, taking every opportunity to 'dirty-up' and smear their opponents and anyone else who gets in the way.

Greens elite, 'Do as we say not do as we do'.

Hi Paul,

There may be something in that. When I was living in Ponsonby, I got to know a lovely old bloke from the Cook Islands, I think from Aitutaki, who told me of a legend about a country far to the west of Aotearoa, with misty blue mountains in the distance. I'd love to think that Cook Islanders and Maori sailed west to Australia - and why not ? The distance between Australia and New Zealand is less than the distance between New Zealand and the Cook Islands, or Tahiti.

Perhaps they traded with Aboriginal people, trading kangaroo grass seed for harvesting tools.

Joe

Dear Paul,

Thank You for the history.

As Joe pointed out - it is fascinating stuff.

As for leoj's attacks on the Greens?

Most inappropriate and has nothing to do with this
discussion. Actually his posts remind me of
a previous poster we used to have on this forum
who was obsessed with anti-Green sentiment.
Remember him?

Oh! Could it not but be true, it be'eth a miracle of biblical proportions, me think the prophet himself onthebeach hath been reincarnated and once more posts among us. Hail to the prophet, the great Leo W.

He now know'eth big words; bourgeoisie, proletariat

The profit in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpmyw2ZDRfo

Greg Sheridan makes a point in today's Australian to keep January 26 as our national day. There is one other reason to do so, although I'm sure many people will rubbish the thought: that on that day in 1788, Aboriginal people became British subjects. Yes, outlandish, isn't it ? But probably many of my ancestors, farm labourers out in Dorset and Merionethshire, Wicklow and Forfarshire, although they too were British subjects back then, had not an inkling of its benefits. Or indeed, anything more substantial either.

But it did mean that Aboriginal people had the protection of the law, where it held any sway. In South Australia, the authorities took it quite seriously, so that if an Aboriginal bloke was up in court for, say, the murder of a white family, but there was no interpreter available, he got off. Seriously. It happened on more than one occasion. As well, a bloke could murder his wife but not be executed for it, since cultural grounds lessened the offence, so he might get two years.

Go for it :)

Joe

Paul1405,

Whatever you do, don't mention the Greens elite who hypocritically slam capitalism while greatly benefitting themselves.

Dress Down Day - any public appearance to harangue the 'proletariat' and stir discontent.

Greg Sheridan would celebrate the day we all became Japanese citizens with their 18 inch naval guns the largest fitted to ships.

Probably boats arrived before Cook as people in Botany Bay canoes ignored the British ships. Also at Ballina up the coast:
" Sir Joseph Banks also noted these people and remarked that they completely ignored the presence of the HMS Endeavour. This would seem to indicate that the HMS Endeavour was not the first ship that they had seen (Richmond River Historical Society {RRHS}, 1997)."

Imports of grass-harvest knives from China carried high tariffs as the local juan-knives with flint blades embedded in bees wax were preferred to cheap plastic . Chinese convict ships were ignored.

Hi Foxy, I picked that from the start.

When I visited Bishops Museum in Honolulu I learned that at one time Samoa controlled Hawaii, I don't know how, that is a distance of 4,000 km, the two languages are very similar. The Samoans are recognized as the greatest seafarers of the Pacific. Thor Heyerdahl proved with his Kon-Tiki expedition that it was possible for a raft to sail a great distance across the Pacific. How did people navigate without a compass, they used the sun and the stars, winds, cloud formations, birds and even smoke can indicate land. "T" could understand a few Hawaiian words in her own language. hard to find someone who speaks Hawaiian. Muttonbird, to this day is still prized by Maori, something you have to go far afield to find. I don't think the Samoans and others, would have had a great problem reaching Australia.

Small world Joe, on Australia Day at Yarra we were talking to an older lady, sort of relative, "T" and her are grandmothers to the two same children. She is from all places Aitutaki Cook Islands, she has got a house there (cyclone damaged) but lives in NZ. tried to talk us into making a trip back home, to help fix up the place, so she can return there permanently, will pay us in land and we could live there, nah. The block house is okay, with a new roof, but the windows need doing. A family reunion is planned there for the end of 2018. Aututaki is 30 mins flying time from Rarotonga, so it is rather remote.

Hi Joe, not all British were equal partners in the takeover of Australia 26th January 1788, far from it, the majority, the convicts and to a lesser extent, the soldiers, on that day, had little or no say in the matter, nor did many who followed them. They were in no better state than the Aboriginals. The people mostly responsible never came within 10,000 miles of the place. The one we hold up as the Father of Australia, Arthur Phillip, went back home a few years later, never to return. Given a free choice 99% of those who arrived in 1788 would have shot back to England faster than you can say didgeridoo.

This article, just one of many on the same subject of Greens splits and use of Australia Day for stirs for media attention, makes it obvious why some senior Greens should drop the green mask and the hypocrisy that goes with it.

http://tinyurl.com/greensplits

", not all British were equal partners in the takeover of Australia".
In he first federal election 26 january 1789 there was a 96% vote to stop being a convict and only 3% Greens in favour , 1% donkey vote or don't know.

Hi Nick,

Given the recent claim of Aboriginal people harvesting kangaroo grass seed, your observation that "Imports of grass-harvest knives from China carried high tariffs as the local juan-knives with flint blades embedded in bees wax were preferred to cheap plastic ...." is intriguing.

In his fascinating book, 'First Farmers', (highly recommended), Peter Bellwood suggests that

" .... any idea that mobile hunters and gatherers can just shift in and out of an agricultural (or pastoral) dependent [his emphasis] lifestyle at will seems unrealistic in terms of the major scheduling shifts required by the annual calendars of resource availability, movement, and activity associated with the two basic modes of production...." (p. 26)

and

".... Cape York Aborigines were in contact with Torres Strait and southern New Guinea gardeners, all living within a zone of similar ecology, climate, and floral resources ... Indeed, the crops that supported New Guinea cultivators - yams, aroids (particularly taro), arrowroot, palms, pandanus, and occasional coconuts - grew wild in the Cape York landscape without evincing any agricultural interest. (p.35)

and concludes that

"Nowhere in the ethnographic record do we observe any adoption of agriculture [by hunter-gatherers] that has imparted expansionary access to the adopting population." (p.37)

Of course, if archaeologists find cultivating and harvesting tools in great numbers, and fence-lines, and storage pits or sheds - and therefore settled villages, somewhere, then you might be onto something. But it's intriguing that, even now, in remote communities with running water, vegetable gardens are very rare.

Conversely, in the south, in the nineteenth century, the Ngarrindjeri men who took out leases of land were almost invariably of mixed ancestry, usually with childhoods in non-Aboriginal settings, foundlings raised on local farms, or raised on Kangaroo Island, coming 'back' into the group as adolescents or adults.

Question: did that slow take-up of innovative production techniques mean that people have always been 'behind the play' ?

Cheers,

Joe

Joe
P Bellwood is putting his guess ("seems unrealistic") as history.
Does he refer to diaries or letters of the 1st British in Cape York. Does he know what he means by "calendars of resource"? Could 3 men go hunting and 3 harvest grain all in the very same week?

Hi Nick,

Bellwood was probably relying on the accounts and writings of a multitude of anthropologists who have spent their entire careers observing and documenting the spectrum of cultural practices of a multitude of societies, including a multitude of hunter-gatherer societies. He's no idiot, having spent his entire fifty-year career (so far) mainly in New Zealand, the Pacific and Australia (and now, I think, in Vietnam and South-East Asia).

I wish people would have enough respect for traditional hunter-gatherer cultures to realise that they are full assemblages of culture, not just some try-this-try-that bits-and-pieces sort of thing that people can drop out of any time. As intelligent people, hunter-gatherers have developed extremely intricate and ingenious ways of 'understanding' the world that they are in every day, forever, often (in the case of most Aboriginal societies) oblivious of any alternatives, but fiercely attached to time-honoured ways of doing everything.

As Bellwood tries to point out, the shift to agriculture happened extremely rarely in world history: perhaps in only three or four places in the world (South-West Asia, Mexico, China and maybe Papua-New Guinea), and spread out from those places very slowly over ten thousand years or more, against the resistance of surrounding hunter-gatherers and pastoralists.

Hunter-gatherers, being rational decision-makers, saw no advantage in, and had no cultural compulsion to, set aside patches of land, organise for months ahead who does what, prepare the ground, break the soil, put in seed, wait, watch for predators for months on end, patrol fence-lines or boundaries, get the women out harvesting, carting, storing, having to set up more permanent settlements around those storage pits, then ensure that rats, mice, birds etc. didn't get into the stored grain, or it wasn't spoilt by water, etc. - rather than go out most days, to hunt, while the women gathered seed and other plant and animal products.

[TBC]

[continued]

Agriculture took five thousand years to spread across Europe from what is now Turkey to Britain, even longer in other parts of Europe. And it may have spread, not by hunter-gatherers adopting agriculture, but by agriculturalists migrating to new areas, and displacing hunter-gatherers, often by force.

And in Australia, what would have been the point of going to all that trouble for a 'crop' which was growing wild all over the continent, including Tasmania ? And why kangaroo grass seed, which has a very low nutrient content, which is why it is used in Africa only when famine strikes ? If it was so nutritious, why isn't the CSIRO working on it right now ?

Try to somehow get some sense, Nick :)

Joe

Joe
As dance rituals aren't used in the stock exchange they were never seen in Australia. Ochre paint was only used by the Xtzkfgatre people of lower Tqandgiljs in Africa.
Strangely many Poms recorded details across Australia before you were born. The Aboriginal CSIRO in 1717 had websites about the benefits of Irish potatoes and Russian vodka and kangaroo grass.
Low to moderate feed quality, but this is highly variable across the region
Digestibility ranges from 54-75 %
Crude protein 3.3-10.6%
MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES
A highly variable species that is moderately productive with most growth being produced over summer; many of the more palatable varieties have been grazed out
Leaves tend to have low phosphorus level and are relatively palatable to cattle, but not sheep.
A well managed stand provides excellent competition against weed invasion.