Hi IS MISE...

No, but I've visited Fatima in Portugal which has similar significance to that of Lourdes. I was particularly struck with the deep devotion exhibited by the many believers who attended there, with many of them choosing to remain on their bare knees for over an hour, as well as progressing awkwardly (still on their knees) toward the holy grotto. With many of them showing abrasions, with bleeding kneecaps etc. as they literally crawl around the holy grotto.

I guess to a 'born again atheist' like me, it represents an amusing sight watching these poorly educated Portuguese folk, pray so very hard for their salvation, and a cure for all manner of ailments. Nevertheless, even a hard bitten old atheist like me, would never ever contemplate taunting or abusing these poor souls, as they pray so hard, to precisely empty space ?

My junk E mail file gathers at least 20 e mails a week from various people trying to make a quid out of selling spiritualism to the needy & the unwary.

Then there are the next group bordering on spiritualism, selling their seminars, "just believe you will succeed, become a millionaire, or what ever", again for a price.

I'll take the Trump kind of spiritualism, applied with a smart kick up the butt any time, thanks.

Good to see that A.J. Phillips has now admitted he is no longer able to distinguish fact from fantasy as he was indoctrinated from childhood. Perhaps a sense of logic in his argument is missing.

He states, "the evidence suggests that people who are indoctrinated into a religion from an early age are less able to distinguish fantasy from reality. No surprises there. I was living proof of that.

I present myself a a Christian realist, so have second thoughts on the original claims of the topic.

AJ,

Until someone can prove that miracles have not taken place at Lourdes then I shall believe that they have so done.

I am open to convincing otherwise however and if you can give a reference to some disproof of a verifiable scientific or medical nature then I shall be most appreciative.

My upbringing was in a home that was Catholic and Irish and I was educated by teachers of the Marist Order who taught us to think for ourselves and to question everything.

O sung wu,

That must have been very interesting, the story of Fatima poses some interesting questions, particularly relating to the Three Secrets.

Is Mise,

Do you believe everything you hear until someone proves it wrong?

<<Until someone can prove that miracles have not taken place at Lourdes then I shall believe that they have so done.>>

This is the Argument from Ignorance fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)

Do you believe in Russell’s teapot because no one has disproven it yet? What about unicorns?

Sounds like you have it arse-about there.

<<I am open to convincing otherwise however and if you can give a reference to some disproof of a verifiable scientific or medical nature then I shall be most appreciative.>>

That is a fallacious shifting of the burden of proof. It is not up to me to disprove those claims. It is up to those making them to provide evidence for them. Such a confused expectation, that others do the impossible by proving a negative, is only held by those who want to protect a cherished belief. It is not an expectation held by any rational, thinking person.

<<My upbringing was in a home that was Catholic and Irish and I was educated by teachers of the Marist Order who taught us to think for ourselves and to question everything.>>

Apparently you weren’t how to do any of that, though. So it was all for nothing.

Now, perhaps you can tell me why no amputees have ever been miraculously cured?

AJ,

"<<My upbringing was in a home that was Catholic and Irish and I was educated by teachers of the Marist Order who taught us to think for ourselves and to question everything.>>

Apparently you weren’t how to do any of that, though. So it was all for nothing.

Huh?