The 'Pickering Post' 8/1/17 - a photo of Malcolm Turnbull, with the caption: "It is important for us that we promote and encourage Islam" (Prime Minister of Australia,Malcolm Turnbull. Q&A, ABC)'.

Now, I prefer Kirralie Smith (the article's writer), and Pickering to Turnbull any day; but I do like the truth, and I cannot believe that even Turnbull would say something so stupid. I do not watch Q&A, and I can't find any reference to a program in which he said it. So, all you avid Q&A fans, can you help me out here? Did you see/hear the Australian PM say that 'we' must promote Islam?

I don't know about this ttbn, But I do know that Turnbull, & Shorten for that matter, would say anything that they thought would buy more votes than it would lose.

That we have such disgusting people in leadership is shameful.

Dear ttbn,

Malcolm Turnbull on the 28th February 2011 did make
some comments about Islam on Q & A. However the quote
that you've given is incomplete and gives the wrong
impression. What Mr Turnbull said has to be taken in
context. He was referring to the ancient religion of
great scholarship, to Arab scholars and Islamic
scholars. Here's something of what he said:

"It is important for us that we promote and encourage
Islam and Islamic traditions which are moderate,
which support democracy and which support Australian values...
That's what we're talking about and they are universal
values."

Hasbeen,

They do. They are also too stupid to know that sucking up to one lot is bound to lose them votes from another lot. Clever is not what anyone could ever accuse our politicians of being.

Thanks Foxy,

That does put a slightly different slant on it, even though Islam has not produced anything since the scimitar. I am always disappointed when people use only part truths when arguing, including those people with whom I generally agree politically. The truth is important, and we should never stop seeking it. Truth beats opinion every time.

Dear ttbn,

Thank You.

It's always best to wait until all the facts
are in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LSDjeaReu4

I heard Turnbull say this and we do always need the full story. However MT also pointed out that the Islamic world started math, astronomy and many civilised things. As moe started up in the 7th century surely he stopped all this Arab advancement when he declared forget about that bs and concentrate of talking about my book.
Islam has had anything but a civilised effect on the wider world. Yes I know I will be called an islamaphobe however I believe that my reasoning to fear these nutters is absolutely real not an unreasoning phobia.

Hi Jim,

MT said that " .... the Islamic world started math, astronomy and many civilised things. .... " ?? What ? A thousand years before, the Greeks knew a great deal about those "civilized things", perhaps even the Egyptians before them had already laid down the basic principles of geometry, and of course the Indians already knew how to use logarithms, which weren't re-discovered in Europe until much later, and certainly weren't known by the Muslims. The zero, after all, was devised by Indian priests, if not by earlier traders around South-East Asia and the Indian ocean.

Much of this would have been known by Byzantine scholars, centuries before the Muslims burst out of Arabia. If anything, they were borrowers, using the knowledge of local Christian and Jewish scholars rather than originating anything themselves. As you point out, their interest in book-learning would have been constrained by the Koran. I'm always struck by the fact that the first printing press in the Muslim world was put together in 1824, barely two hundred years ago.

Here's a - possibly - Islamophobic suspicion: do Muslims still believe the world is flat ? Or have they done the Greek thing and worked out, roughly, the distance of the Earth from the Sun, and its diameter ?

And I hope nobody goes on about the wonderful architecture in Moorish Spain.

Cheers,

Joe

There is nothing wrong with being called an Islamophobe. When people start calling you names because of your beliefs, you know that you have won the argument. Islam is an evil, dispicable thing that will probably die out (although not in our time) as more of the poor souls who have had Mohammed's filth forced down their throats are exposed to the West and its values. We must remember that Muslims-through-no-choice are as human as the rest of us; they can compare what they have with what is available to them, and tell the Mad Mullahs that the game is up. Just as we took back our lives from all-powerful priests, so too can Muslims, exposed to democracy and the rule of law.

Malcolm said;
Islam and Islamic traditions which are moderate,

This is the very point on which politicians lead us astray.
"Moderates" means nothing, surveys in the UK have shown quite clearly
that moderates will advocate Sharia law, will support Jihadists and
refuse to condemn their attacks.
They also want to have all Jews removed or killed.
The only difference is that moderates do not want to undertake these
operations themselves. It is in their baby milk. Schools reinforce it.
There are of course reform groupings but they seem to be very small
and in the Middle East are under threat.

That's right, Bazz. A 'moderate' Muslim is entirely different from our definiition of moderation. There is nothing moderate about Islam, as anyone who has merely scanned the Koran knows. 'Moderate Muslim' is the best possible example of an oxymoron.

Joe,

Have you seen Tony Thomas's article in Quadrant Online today re your's and your colleagues research?

//When people start calling you names because of your beliefs, you know that you have won the argument. Islam is an evil, dispicable thing//

Apparently Islam has won the argument.

//"Moderates" means nothing//

No it bloody doesn't. Buy a dictionary, Bazz.

//surveys in the UK have shown quite clearly
that moderates will advocate Sharia law, will support Jihadists and
refuse to condemn their attacks//

No they bloody haven't. Surveys in the UK have shown quite clearly
that extremists will advocate Sharia law, will support Jihadists and
refuse to condemn their attacks. If anybody supports violent terrorism and theocracy, then by definition they are extremist and not moderate. See above point about buying a dictionary.

The moderates are the boring ones that you never hear about because boring stories don't sell newspapers or get clicks. They're the ones that work hard, support their families, pay their tax and obey the law. But that's much too dull, and people would rather hear about the lowlifes and the crooks and the psychopaths. As it has always been, so shall it always be.

Toni,
Well, there is nothing that I can say to you except that your comment
indicates that you do not have a clue as to what is going on in the world.
It is more relevant to you than me.
It is all there to be found if you feel you need more information.

Hi ttbn,

Yeah. I might have to migrate, Alistair can look after himself.

Hey Bazz,
What's going on in the world?
Thought I'd add some things I've been looking at lately.

FBI Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds Discusses Gladio B
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN6xa7kD9dZ_qXHAmm4dx-Bqqy10mSVDZ

George Webb series 'Where is Eric Braverman?'
(Missing Clinton Foundation CEO)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-zlUhrGyvo

George Webb Slide Series
http://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1X2ZNdpHMx23Nm-pGZULrBbU6SxpfiNMId6KXqe3deIE/edit#slide=id.g1906d72a88_0_0

//Well, there is nothing that I can say to you except that your comment
indicates that you do not have a clue as to what is going on in the world.//

Because I don't accept the stories published in newspapers (or online) as a statistically representative sample of real life, and believe that people whose job it is to sell newspapers will naturally favour the the more dramatic stories?

Apparently you don't understand how capitalism and publishing intertwine... and you have the gall to call me ignorant about the real world.

I have lived with and amongst Muslims, in Morocco, Afghanistan and India, where I stayed a whole monsoon in a Mujahadin safe house in Bombay, as well as sharing a house with Afghanis in Goa for two years. I am currently visiting Australia, and have two Muslims looking after by house and dogs in Bali.

There are 1.4 billion of them, and to tar them all with the same brush is childish and ludicrous. I have seen, and been shown, hospitality and kindness from Muslims, because of their religion, that you would never see from, say, Christians.

The bible has it's fair share of violence and nastiness, and still preaches that the only way to 'salvation' is their way. Jews claim to be God's chosen people, and act like it. All religions are crap, that doesn't mean religious people are.

OK, I should have worded that better and said Judaism instead of Jews, and I was referring to Israel when I said they act like it.

I am still waiting for confirmation. It means a lot...

If anyone has any doubts as to what happens to countries when they are
taken over by Moslems look at Egypt.
The Copts are largely representative of the indigenous people of Egypt.
That is they were the pyramid builders.
The Arabs invaded around 700 ad and have oppressed the Christian Copts ever since.

Along comes Billyd telling us "to tar them (Muslims) with the same brush is childish and ludicrous". But this same Billyd is comfortable making his own judgements on the obviously few members of "1.4 billion" diaspora he claims to know. He might not know any Muslims at all. He could be the footloose and feckless drifter he claims to be, or he might have lived his entire life in Brunswick. All religions are "crap"? Anyone making such an ignorant statement wouldn't know crap from clay, and they have the former in lieu of brains.

If you really do have a house being minded by Muslims in Bali, Billy boy, best slip back to check on the dogs; Muslims hate dogs more than they hate pigs.

Hahaha, the fool ttbn replies. Muslims don't all hate dogs, Muslims don't all pray five times a day, Muslims don't all abstain from pork and alcohol, it's obviously you who doesn't know any Muslims.

I see you're upset because I called your 'superior' religion crap; hit a nerve, did I?

I take it you're better than all the Muslims in the world? What about Jews, are you better than them? Hindus? Buddhists? Jedi?

It must feel good to be so superior.

I've just returned from visiting my mum who's in a
dementia wing of a nursing home. Some of the nurses
who look after my mum wear the scarves around their
heads and the free-flowing robes that Muslim women wear.
They are such caring and professional staff, so gentle
with mum and ever so patient. I consider us very
fortunate to have such lovely and competent people
looking after mum with such dedication and love.

Billyduh!

"Hahaha, the fool ttbn replies" What strange gibberish are you using? I' m not upset. I don't have a "superior" religion. Your total ignorance of religion makes we squirm with embarrassment for you. Were your parents also ignoramuses? Did they not care about your upbringing and education? How could they have condemned you to such ignorance? You appear to be a barely literate person with a huge chip on your shoulder. You are either a hopless wanderer without roots, or a fantasist. Come to think of it, I do feel superior to you. Who would not!

Hahaha, a typical ttbn post. You really struggle when it comes to handling the truth, and I find it hilarious.

You're a hater, a nasty vindictive bore, being, as you obviously are, religious, makes it even more hilarious, and proves my point.

ALL religions are crap, that's an opinion, my opinion, your opinion, apparently is that they are not, or, at least, yours is not. That also makes you a hypocrite.

I refuse to stoop to your level, I have no idea what your parents are like, and I would never blame them for the way you turned out. You make your choices in life, not your parents, therefore you are responsible for the nasty person you are today.

What would be interesting though, would be to hear your opinion on religions, all of them, I would be especially interested in hearing what makes your religion so superior to all the others.

I won't hold my breath though, you haven't managed an intelligent comment so far, so no reason to believe you will any time soon.

For a drop in from Bali (or Brunswick) you have no idea of what is 'typical' of me. Get back on your bong, and waste your useless life away.

I knew you wouldn't answer, proving my point.

I don't usually brag about being superior, but in your case I'll make an exception.

Billyd, I am sure you have not missed the point, so don't go on
with the pretence that others do not understand what moderate moslem really implies.
It is just that it has taken this generation a while to realise it.
Over the last 1400 years it has been a lesson that has to have been
relearnt repeatably.
These days history is much better recorded.

Bazz, I think you are attributing someone else's comment to me, or are you?

I live in a Muslim country, and have done for a number of years, I have many Muslim friends here, some drink alcohol, some eat bacon, most of them play with my dogs, so I don't think I need a lesson in what is or is not moderate.

People need to make a distinction between Islam and Muslims. All religions preach crap, starting with this god nonsense, and they all claim they are the only true path. Religions don't bring people together, they strive to keep them apart, the sooner the world is rid of religion the better.

Just as Christians don't share the guilt of two thousand years of Christian atrocities, culminating in the disgusting paedophilia of Christian priests, vicars, nuns and bishops, so Muslims aren't responsible for the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam.

BTW, you made a comment earlier that Copts built the pyramids. You are aware, I take it, that Copt means Egyptian? The use of the word Copt today usually refers to Coptic Christians or the Copt language. So whilst you are right, there is no connection between Coptic Christians and the pyramids.

Hi Billyd,

You make some interesting points:

* that there is Islam, and there are Muslims, just as there is Christianity and there are Christians. Most believers would give lip-service to their religion, believing so casually and unthinkingly that they don't need a book. Both the Bible and the Koran promise eternal hell for non-believers, but as far as I know, there are no Christian zealots these days who would put those strictures into practice, unless highly provoked.

* yes, all religions are ultimately rubbish, but most provide a moral foundation of sorts for believers, something us atheists have to consciously build for ourselves, or not. Like identity itself, a common moral principle of believers is to be inclusive, recognising the strengths and weaknesses in all humans, and as sort of all brothers and sisters under the skin. But like many senses of identity, some are exclusive, exclusionist, with adherents defining themselves and their beliefs in terms of what they are NOT, i.e. not those other bastards 'out there', with their assumed vile customs, whose non-belief or non-identity is a mark of their irredeemable evil.

* some believers in this negative alternative see themselves as always under threat from those bastards, who historically have done the most dreadful things imaginable (and easily imagined without any evidence), and therefore can never be trusted. In fact, for some believers, one must get in first and carry out the most heinous crimes against those bastards in the name of their religion - their god would approve it - or 'discover' new crimes, new oppressions, in order to justify building further walls, rather than bridges, as people of a positive and inclusive disposition might.

Ttbn, yourself and I probably don't disagree as much as we sound :)

Cheers,

Joe

Poor Silly Billy,

Live in a Muslim country do you? In Bali? Sorry, Billy, but 90% of Balinese are Hindus. Care to bullcrap your way out of that one?

Joe,

There's only a ciggy paper between us. I would say that I'm ruder than you are.

ttbn, you ignorant little fool, Bali is a province of Indonesia.

Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world by population.

I live in Indonesia, the country, on an island called Bali.

You really aren't the person to argue with me over geography.

The figures you quote don't take into consideration the itinerant population who come to Bali to work, mostly Muslims from Java.

Jembrana, the part of Bali nearest to Java, has an estimated Muslim population nearing 40%, and greater Denpasar, including the main tourist areas, has an estimated Muslim population exceeding 25%, and growing.

Maybe if you got out more, became more worldly, you wouldn't be such a nasty bore.

Hi Joe. I wouldn't disagree with anything you said there, but still feel strongly that the world would be a better, more inclusive place without religion.

Also, there are fundamental Christians working in Israel stirring the poo in the belief that Armageddon is about to break out there, I don't pretend to know what damage, if any, they cause, but their intent is wholly violent and exclusive.

...........

Looks like I can't post again in this thread for about 16 hours, a funny rule.

Rave on, Billy. I know that Indonesia is a Muslim country. I know that Bali is part of Indonesia. The fact remains, you do not live among Muslims. Bali is majority Hindu, and you cannot change that. Why do you live there, loser? It's no place for a civilised person. One big holiday for you is it? Plenty of cheap drugs. Cheap women. Cheap boys? Can't make it among your own kind.? Who knows? Who cares?

Oh dear tt-bs, have I driven you over the edge?

"Billy. I know that Indonesia is a Muslim country. I know that Bali is part of Indonesia." ... Yes, you do now, because I told you.

Have you ever lived in Bali? Of course not, I doubt you have ever been here or anywhere else, and yet you're an expert.

I've already told you the area I live in has a Muslim population of 25%, and growing. I also explained to you how Bali has a huge Muslim 'black' population of unregistered workers. Every resident of Bali must have ID papers and be registered, or they aren't counted on the census, so aren't part of the official 18% identifying as Muslim. What I didn't mention was the Muslim tourists, who far outnumber every other tourist group. So at times up to a third of the people here are Muslim.

If you ever earn enough money to visit here, (I doubt you will ever afford to live here), ask the waitress in your restaurant what religion she is, ask the man mowing the lawn in your cheap backpackers, the women in the kitchen, the cleaners, the handyman, the cashier, the taxi driver, the shop assistant, and most of the people you come into contact with, I guarantee the majority of them will be Muslim.

As for me, I am surrounded by them, good friends, acquaintances, workers. My gardener is Muslim, my pembantu is Muslim, my mechanic is Muslim, the pool man is Muslim, the woman who cooks my breakfast every day is Muslim, and my business partner is Muslim. And, as I said before, I have a very good friend and her boyfriend staying with me from Banyuwangi, and looking after my house, both are Muslim.

Why do I live here? Because I have a better life than you, and I am surrounded by better people than you. Cheap? Well it would be if I were staying in the dumps you can only afford, but I have no need to.

All this is very amusing, Billy, but not really worth my time. You seem to be a sad old man trying to justify a worthless life.

I have travelled overseas extensively but no, I have never been to Bali. I leave that to the bogans who have to borrow money to say that they have "been overseas". However, I do have every confidence that I know what I am talking about, and that you do not.

Thanks for popping up, though. Like everyone else I need to occasionally come across soemone like you to appreciate how lucky I am.

Ah, the typical answer of a loser. You have failed to answer a single point, because you realise you have nothing to say.

It's a pity you don't have the gonads to defend your religion though, I enjoy ridiculing fools like you.

So crawl back in your hole, whatever your name is, I'm done with you ....... for now.

Now, children .....

Hi Billyd,

You're right when you say , " .... Muslims aren't responsible for the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam .... ", but clearly, the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam are very likely to have been carried out by Muslims. So, no, not all Muslims, and really, only a tiny proportion of all Muslims. But Muslims nevertheless. Give credit where credit's due.

I think Bazz's point was that Egyptians built the Pyramids. Later most of them became Christian and were known as Copts. Later still, their country was invaded by Arab Muslims, and their DNA changed forever: male DNA Arab, female DNA Egyptian.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Joe.

You're right Joe, but my point is, blame Islam, not Muslims.

The main problem I see with Islam, is that there is no overall authority since the last Caliph, in, I think, 1924.

Christianity has the pope and the archbishop of Canterbury, which reins in extremism, pretty much. There have been extremist Christian atrocities, carried out over thousands of years, plus wars started by Christian countries causing millions of deaths.

Wikipedia, needing to be taken with a fair degree of scepticism, lists Christian terrorism around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

I can only repeat my experiences with Muslims, and the overwhelming hospitality and generosity I've been shown, as decreed by Islam.

I don't have an answer Joe, I'm not even sure there is one, but I am sure it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

As to the Egyptians, I really don't see his point. Egypt was invaded by a combined British, French and Israeli force in 1956, not the first time outsiders had interfered in the country, and not the last. Just like The Great Game, that kept Afghanistan in turmoil for hundreds of years to keep the British and Russian empires apart. ISIS is a result of the US invasion of 2003 after the weapons inspectors had told them there were no WMDs. The Sunnis, who were dispossessed, were then funded by Wahhabi Saudi Arabia and became ISIS. The Iran Iraq war, started by the CIA. The overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953, where the UK and US installed the Shah and stole their oil. The propping up of the Saudi Royal Family, allowing them to steal the country's wealth and oppress the people, to guarantee the supply of oil. And on and on and on ..... and what do they all have in common? The West exercising their perceived 'right' to control the Muslim world.

The Catholic church was infiltrated during the sex scandals and is now not worth a mention. They've officially moved over to the dark side in my opinion, not that I ever thought much of a religion often involved in child molestation.

Not sure how 'Christian' the Catholic church actually is...

The Romans invented Christianity. The Empire was crumbling, kings were refusing to bow to the authority of Rome, they needed a way to maintain their influence and their wealth. So they did a deal with the rulers of Europe, accept the church and we will look after their souls and make sure they are loyal to you. It didn't quite work out that way, but for a time it worked. One of the titles of the pope is Holy Roman Emperor.

The Councils of Nicea formulated the religion from scratch, decided which of the dozens of gospels to use, and even voted on the divinity of Jesus. They came away with the Nicean Creed, which is still the basis of Christianity. It's just a farce when people associate Christianity with Jesus.

Hi Billyd,

To repeat, ".... So, no, not all Muslims, and really, only a tiny proportion of all Muslims. But Muslims nevertheless. Give credit where credit's due."

Yes, Christians have done dreadful things, to each other mostly. Probably as recently as the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, in which they seemed to have reserved their worst brutality for the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. I'm not saying they carried out those atrocities merely because, incidentally, they were Christians, but because they did so explicitly in the name of their god, that their vile cause was a holy Christian cause.

Yes, tu quoque, God. But currently, the Serb Chetniks are back in their box and it appears that, on the whole (apart from some Buddhist terrorism in Burma against Muslims), the random terrorist atrocities being carried out around the world in the name of Allah are people who have a belief in Allah. A tiny, tiny proportion of Muslims, but after all, that's the nature of terrorism, to use a tiny number to terrorise a bigger number.

And just as it was incumbent of people around the world, most certainly including Christians, to condemn Serb Orthodox atrocities, so it is incumbent on Muslims to condemn the actions of people claiming to be Muslims and bringing such shame and dishonour on their belief systems.

Incidentally, the left doesn't get off so easy either. Their gutlessness during the wars in ex-Yugoslavia, their silence over the brutal invasion of East Timor, will be a blot on their claims to some sort of superior morality forever. And that's an ex-socialist talking.

Joe

Joe,

No good trying to talk to anyone who drags up what Christians might have done 2,000 years ago as a defence for what Musims are doing NOW from 1400 years ago. No good trying to talk to anyone who declares that all religion is "crap", either. Anybody has the right to reject religion - through strong conviction or, as in Dillybag's case, pig-ignorance - just as others have the right to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, formally or informally without the interference of priests.

To link any religion with Islam (no more a religion than Nazism, vodoo or paganism) must be seen as towering ignorance. Save yourself for meaningful conversations, mate. Dillybag is just a trolling blow in who will crawl away like the dung beetle he is before much longer.

Hi Joe.

Just a few Christian terrorism cases for you; Central African Republic, Anti-balaka groups; Tripura, India, NLFT; Nagaland, India, NSCN, these Christian groups are active, and definitely killing on behalf of Christianity.

Then you had the Maronite Christian militias in Lebanon during the civil war there, which is why OZ got many of its Muslim Lebanese refugees. And the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, a Christian group whose leader claims to be the messiah.

Did Christians demonstrate in the streets to protest? Are they doing so now? So why is it incumbent on Muslims to do so? When was the last time Australian Jews demonstrated against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians? And where were these demonstrations in the streets protesting Serb Orthodox atrocities? I must have missed that.

As to silly boy's argument, if you can call it that .... for a start, Christianity is 1700 years old, not 2,000, it was put together after 325AD. My point, way over silly boy's head obviously, is that laws and dogma laid down in antiquity, from Christianity, Judaism and Islam, are still being preached today, they are all totally irrelevant, and have their roots in a fairy story used to scare kids into being good. It didn't work on tt-BS, obviously.

As I said before, we have a shocking history of oppressing Muslims, going back hundreds of years, and still going on today, why should they forget and forgive?

We are still backing Israel, no better than Nazis in my opinion, if Israelis were Muslims, oppressing Jewish Palestinians in the same way, whose side would we be on?

The problem with Billyd's post is it is all cut and paste. The Christian terrorism details come from Wikipedia which seems to think that if someone calls themselves a Christian and practices terrorism, then that constitutes Christian terrorism. (Note the neutrality of the Wiki entry is disputed).

Islamic terrorism can be justified by a fairly orthodox reading of Islamic root texts. It is an orthodox expression of the religion. There is no justification in Christian teaching for terrorism. Any person claiming to be a Christian could not also be a terrorist. The fact would rebut the claim.

"We", whoever "we" is supposed to be, do not have a history of oppressing Muslims. We've been in wars against Islamic countries, just as we have against communist and capitalist countries. But as far as I can think the wars have never been because they were Islamic. The Middle East was invaded as part of World War I, and because the Ottoman Empire had allied with Germany, not because it was Islamic.

The worst oppressors in these areas are generally other Muslims.

Graham. So when Christian terrorists kill people it's because they are terrorists, but when Muslim terrorists kill people it's because they are Muslim? Right, got it!

So being in wars against Islamic countries has nothing to do with the fact they are Muslim, that's just a coincidence? Why does that matter? Muslims see it as hundreds of years of crimes against Muslims, which is why they react the way they do.

If the Palestinians were Christian would the reaction of the US and other supporting countries be the same?

If the Kurds were Christian would Churchill still have ordered a gas attack on them?

If Iran was a Christian country would the CIA still have conspired with Iraq to invade them? In fact, would they still have engineered the coup that overthrew their democratically elected government in 1953 to steal their oil, which is the root of their animosity, if they were Christian?

Would there now be an ISIS if George W Bush hadn't rid the Iraqi government of Sunnis?

Maybe when we stop considering other countries' oil to be our oil, and their politics to follow ours, (except China of course), maybe we can have some sort of peace, until then the oppressed are going to react.