What appears at first hand to be a great new weapon to combat social security fraud, ‘Centrelink’ is targeting what is termed non compliance in an attempt to identify overpayments. By linking with the taxation office income files and running computer programs ‘Centrelink’ has identified thousands of individuals it believes have received unwarranted payments. This search and destroy operation can check on payments as far back as 2010, and it is indeed throwing up thousands of names. A calculation is done, a letter generated, and a demand for repayment made. The recipient then has two choices, repay the money as demanded, or dispute the findings. In many of the disputed cases it has been found that the methodology used to determine the debt is flawed, and the debt is waved.
This crackdown is targeting the more honest recipient, the person who has declared their income for taxation purposes; it does not target those working for cash in hand, or not genuinely seeking work, or those claiming a pension when they should be on ‘Newstart’ allowance and actively seeking employment, those in relationships and not entitled to benefit as a single person. It is tending to target the easy marks and not getting to those in the too hard basket.

Hi there PAUL1405...

I understand what it is you're saying - it's easier for Centrelink to tease out all these over-payments, by targeting those who've honestly declared 'ALL' their income legitimately, instead of the individuals who move around in the shadow of the black economy?

Unfortunately compliance has always gone for the easier mark, mainly because of all the additional capital needed to hunt down and prosecute the bad guys. Many of whom are claiming benefits in many different names, addresses, and with differing spouses, amounting to thousands a week.

It's the 'Annual Report' tabled in Parliament that counts, not how many bad guys, who've been referred to the Federal Police for greater (in depth) investigation. In fact you'd be most surprised at the number of swindles emerging from Provider's engaged in Medicare fraud?
Doctors - GP's and Specialists, including Psychiatrists, all overcharging. Optometrists, Dentists, Physios., in fact all those health care professional groups, who can access the Medicare 'piggy bank'.

But regrettably Paul, it takes police with their specialised training to catch these miscreants, and any investigation which targets criminal Fraud (particularly these health care professionals) costs bucks and more bucks! Far easier to go for the hapless welfare bloke who may have received a couple dollars over-payment - Sick, just bloody sick!

Yes o sung wu, its comonly know as 'good guys come last' and its always been the way.

In fact, there is an alarming trend now for small business employers to only employ unemployed and more alarming is that they WILL NOT place them on the books, and seriously, who can blame them.

As it stands we, small business owners are inindated with bookwork, much of which involves unpaid work for the government in the form of tax collection and payments, GST collection and payments, super, the list goes on.

Of cause the serious side of this is that many, particularly young folk, when questioning their arrangements get told that either they accept cash payments, or they dont have a job.

Of cause a transaction tax would see a great deal of the burdon on SB gone, but they simply wont go there.

Hi there BUTCH...

It certainly is a sad state of affairs. As you so correctly aver, government relies on Small Business to do much of the work for them in terms of collecting taxes and informing them of potential taxpayers, particularly those engaged, initially as apprentices in your Industry Butch. As if they don't have enough to do, for and on behalf of the government.

I've never done a days work in private enterprise (save for some unofficial part-time work over the years). However some of the problems friends of mine who've been active in small business, some for many years, that they've often expressed to me, is simply astonishing.

They speak of masses of official documentation, as well as trying to accommodate the utter autocracy, whenever they have to deal with all, and any strata of government, and much of it nothing remotely to do with raising revenue through the normal medium of taxation. Would positively paralyze the initiative of the most enthusiastic and ardent of businessman.

Together with many of the fatuous and asinine directives, edicts and monitoring, they're all (regularly) mandated to observe. Who'd ever wish to be a boss? Or more correctly, the proprietor of a modern small business, in today's over regulated market place?

much better system to give out food, shelter and clothing to those in need. It would cost the tax payer much less and kids with unemployed parents would more likely be fed and educated.

Funny how its never odd that the govt puts a lot of energey and resourses into chasing the people who are the asiiest to chase and punish.

Funny how they have no desire to chase the multinationals who pay little or any tax all. Particularly where if just one such company were to pay their fir share, it would wipe out the minor damage done by those who have to live by their wits in the centerlink system to survive or have any quality of life at all.

Chasing people on benefits smacks more of hatred towards those on benefits more than anything else.

runner, you and I do not see eye to eye on many topic. There is a time and a place for Christian charity, but I do not believe the welfare system should be turned over to soup kitchens and food hampers alone, that is not the answer. Successive governments have tried to come up with solutions to deal with the socially disadvantaged and most of those schemes have been nothing more than window dressing at best. 'Work for the dole' is a prime example of the type of scheme which in theory has merit, but in practice is generally a failure. The reason for failure is no matter what is tried, at the end of the day, the socially disadvantaged are still just as disadvantaged.

Paul, only those who want to succeed will succeed.

The best way to get people off welfare is to make it far less attractive.

You do this by providing housing, food and essentials, but not cash.

At least then you will weed out those who are lazy which will then let us deal with those in real need.

What was designed as a leg up, has now turn into a lifestyle for many yes so many do-gooders just cant see that.

And of cause if one who either cant find work, or doesn't want to work chooses to live in places like Sydney, that's their choice.

The fact of the matter is there are far far too many on the handouts and it's crippling us. It's just that some choose to ignore it.

I'm guessing butcher hasn't been unemployed, or laid off or retrenched and is clueless about the fact that 700-770,000 are unemployed and 100-170,000 jobs are available.
Leaving about 600,000 unemployed without even a job they can apply for.
Since the government and business in Australia cant provide jobs for all of us then we do need to provide a safety welfare net for the unemployed.
Newstart is about $255 a week, and the long term unemployed list is getting bigger by the day. Not only do we have a growing youth unemployment problem we have a mature age unemployment problem because ageism is very alive and very well in Australia. I'd like to see butcher try living below the poverty line like those of Newstart have to.

Dear Paul,

Of course there are people who misuse the system.

However, I feel that if the money currently being spent on
federal poverty programs was given directly to the poor,
instead of to federal and state bureaucracies, it could raise
the incomes of all the poor above the poverty line, and still
leave a surplus. Poverty is undesirable and the costs of
eradicating it are so small, why is a better system not in
place?

Part of the reason possibly lies in the peculliar belief that
the poor are in poverty because they are idle and prefer to
live on "handouts." These sort of attitudes bear little
resemblance to reality. How many people have ever tried to
raise a family on welfare payments? Many opinionated people
have no idea what poverty is really like.

Opinion polls repeatedly show large sections of the
population favouring cuts in welfare spending, or favouring
plans to "make welfare recipients go to work."
Yet we have aged people, disabled people, mothers with young
children, who are unable to work.

It's odd though that there are few complaints about
our governments paying far more in "handouts" to the nonpoor
than to the poor. This fact generally escapes attention because
these benefits take the indirect form of hidden susidies or
tax deductions, rather that the direct form of cash payments.

If we're going to target welfare fraud, we should also target
the fraud that occurs at the other end of the spectrum.

T800, benefits do not need to be paid in the form of cash as it can be too easily wasted.

And yes, i was unemployed for a couple of years but did not seek benefits because it was a personal choice, although in hindsight i should have. But thats life.

The fact of the matter is $255 per week FOR DOING NOTHING is better off than many who work and that is a scandle.

Cash is the problem. Besides there are plenty of jobs otherwise we would have zero 457 holders. Aussie just dont want those jobs and because they are seasonal in many cases, welfare recipits wont take them for fear of not being able to get back on the gravy train.

People, especially government ministers and administrators need to wake up and smell the roses because we are being conned by far too many people and the decent unemployed are being dragged down with them.

Any hand up should never be paid in cash because the payee, the tax payer, is entitled to know their money is not being wasted.

Well butcher if you were unemployed you should know better. I spent time interviewing many mature aged unemployed virtually thrown on the scrap heap, by inexperienced people who don’t recognize experience and loyalty as things to be to be valued.

What is a scandal is that you are clueless if you think they do nothing. They have responsibilities to uphold. They have hoops they need to jump through almost every day to ensure they are not cut off without warning. They must apply for jobs even if none exist. They must turn up and waste hours in queues and filling in forms or doing courses that eventually lean to nowhere and no job. People on Newstart do not get holidays or time off you know, they are expected to be looking for work 24x7 even when it doesn’t exist.

Plenty of jobs? Can’t you read? Do I have to requote the figures for you? The 457 problem is an employer problem, these days they do not want to train Australians for jobs they want ready-made foreigners. Some that simply lie their arses off to get a job that an Australian could do. But dodgey employers would rather pay cheap labor to do.
Most unemployed people I have seen and spoken to want a job. Why? Because “living” on $255 a week… IS NOT LIVING. You need to wake up and smell REALITY. They don’t have the money to cover emergencies, or health issues, or even just buy someone a gift for a birthday or go to a movie… They have NO LIFE.

No cash? Really? How do they buy food, pay rent, a mortgage, car rego, utility bills, etc, etc, etc… How do they even manage to do that on $255 a week? Most have been employed and payed taxes and probably could be unemployed for 50 years before they break even with the government’s welfare cheque. You have a lot to learn and should stop spouting nonsense.

Hi Butch,
You take a typical "protestant" attitude to the poor in our society. Believing they find themselves in poverty because of lifestyle choice or laziness, and to some degree, with the minority that is true. You believe the poor are incapable of managing their own affairs, can't be trusted with money, and for some that is also true. However the vast majority of people I deal with are in a state of poverty, not through choice, but through circumstance. For some they have been programmed looser's from birth, there are others who have worked all their lives and have nothing to show for it, and are now in poverty, mainly through lack of income. Your solution is the "big stick approach" belt them for the crime of being poor. My answer to you is, where do you suggest the new mega super max prisons be built to house all these poverty criminals. people in our society can't survive without some cash in their pockets, that is a fact. Another one of the great fallacies is the poor live in a high cost city like Sydney through choice, and should simply up and move to where the grass is greener. Please explain how you achieve that, it is mentioned so often. A bit like saying, don't live in poverty in Mount Druitt, all will be well if you move to Vaucluse,
I assume you see me as one the despised do-gooders. I doubt you would know a poor person if you fell over one. Under your system the poor would be taking their food voucher down to your butcher shop for their weekly ration of snags and sausage mince, a vocher you would promptly cash! Like doctors, you can be trusted with taxpayer money.

Interesting, if you are a qualified butcher, how did you not work for a couple of years. You said it was by choice, did you use any government benefits in that time, like subsidized public transport.

Hi Foxy, welcome back to the forum. Hope your health is much better now.

"Of course there are people who misuse the system." There are doctors, bank managers and horse trainers who misuse the system. while ever you have a system it with have a percentage of misusers.

"However, I feel that if the money currently being spent on
federal poverty programs was given directly to the poor,"
I know poor people who if you gave them a $1000 cash bonus today, they would be just as poor in a fortnights time. Can you explain what you mean by that.

A case, can you comment; "A single bloke about 30, living in Sydney. Two weeks ago was given notice to quit. Occupied a room at $160/week from his dole of $265, had about $100 left over to feed and cloth himself etc. Prior to that he was living in his "car". He told me he had been paying his rent, but said the landlord put a letter under his door. because someone told the landlord he has a court date in February, which he does. Has history, the coppers caught him this time trying to break into a shipping container, it was probably full of lawnmower parts or some other useless object. Looser from the start, bad up bring, no education, no skills, drugs and alcohol, as a teenager, although been clean of both for a long time now. Had to yesterday to get out, could not find him yesterday, and doesn't answer him mobile, but might not have credit, try again today.

p/s Nothing affordable in the luxury room department at the momnet.

I don't give people money, although my partner does, the other day she gave a bloke 5 busks, when I asked "Why did you do that!" She replied "Because he needed it." I said "He will only spend it on piss." She said "Yes, but he needs that to." Bloody do-gooder!

Dear Paul,

Thanks for the "welcome back."

I always give to people asking for money. I always have. I don't question
what they're going to do with it. If I have it, I give.

Who knows, someday some person may help me out.

T800
Foxy,

You really don;t get it do you
The law of the jungle is the weak die off and the strong survive.
There should be no welfare for those who refuse to work, for breeders who
breed for the sake of not having to work,for disabled who are disable via
'SIA' self inflicted wounds such as obesity, alcoholism and substance abuse.
Why should we, the worker,law abider and tax payer have to buy their fast food,
cigarettes,grog and drugs.
Get real you two.
If they don't deserve it let them starve.

What world do you people inhabit, it sure isn't this one.

We have lots of dole bludgers around here, & lots of work offering, but the bludgers wouldn't take a job, while they can bludge.

My turf farm neighbour can't get anyone to work for him, except the cash in hand brigade, who will only do a day or two a week.

My hydroponics farm neighbour couldn't get anyone to work for him even for cash in hand, the work is too hard for the dole bludgers, so his kids have to do it after school.

My son had a job in a week after coming out of the navy. He had 4 employers fighting for him after a couple of months.

He is now a victim of our disgusting welfare system, designed to cater to the bums of our world.

He slipped of the back of his ute one night, & blew up a knee, reconstructed not very well after an accident on a navy base. He had to hobble around for 3 months, unemployable, he couldn't even drive, before he could get surgery. Having had that, he can not go back to work for at least another 3 months.

Meanwhile he is living out of the bank. He has some $60,000 in the bank, saved to be the deposit on a home. If he had bought a home, or a new car & had nothing, he would be receiving disability benefits, but he will not get anything while he has money in the bank.

Come on Paul, & try to dispute our welfare system is for bums, not decent real people.

Dear Chris,

I can't help how I feel on this topic.

I don't believe that you'd walk away from somebody in
serious trouble either. I've witnessed quite a few
times a pensioner at the checkout line in a supermarket
trying to decide between products that they could afford
to buy, fruit or bread - because they couldn't afford
both. I'd end up paying for them. I could not just walk
away. The same as single mums deciding what they could
or could not afford. If I could help, I always would.

I think you would do the same despite your strong rebukes.
Because underneath it all - you're a softie. Whether you
admit it or not.

Cg1000, in reality buddy… YOU really don’t get it…
If we were uncivilised and it was the law of the jungle, you’d probably be robbed and dead with people living in your house and driving your car. But we don’t live in that sort of society.
As for the rest of your rubbish… puhlease. Oh and some people are obese due to poor health. But I guess you’d like an Adler so you could shoot them after all they won’t be able to run very fast right? Hopefully when you reach 50 you won’t be put off and be permanently unemployed due to ageism eh… someone might mistake you for being useless and of inferior genetics and decide to put you out of their misery. YOU need to see a SHRINK.

Hasbeen, I live in the real world how about you? Perhaps you just need to grow some compassion, learn to empathise… get real…

There are 600,000 Dole BLUDGERS according to you… well guess what… most of them want a life… most of them want real jobs… unfortunately for them there are no jobs in Australia. 770,000 unemployed 170,000 jobs… them’s the stats boyo.

If you live on Newstart you have to wait a year before they give you any money if you were made redundant. Then you get $255 a week to live on… good luck with that. Most people cant live on that it is below the average wage and below the poverty line, most sane people prefer to have a job so they have a life. If you are a mature person on Newstart you’ve already worked most of your life and amassed assets… the longer you are unemployed the more assets you lose… the older you are the less likely you will ever be re-employed. If you are over 45, the odds are you will remain unemployed until the pension kicks in. That is life in Australia these days.

The biggest problem with welfare in this country is the entitlement mentality. I have witnessed it with family members and somewhat grew up with it. Yes we should always look after the vulnerable but not reward bad behaviour or an entitlement mentality. One member of my family never let go of the entiltement mentality and is constantly wanting the Government to give them more. Her children are now doing the same. On the other hand all my children work and don't look to the Government for handouts. Thankfully the Govt. is there if they are unfortunate enough to need it. The whole socialist dogma when it comes to welfare has destroyed many of the Indigeneous and now generations of whites. The main beneficiaries are Government employees and ngo's who make buckets in continuing to indoctrinate people that the Government (taxpayer) owes you. If you aren't thankful for welfare you certainly have never seen true poverty. Maybe the Government should fund you a trip to India or Malaysia to stop you whining and cause you to appreciate what you have.

Dear runner,

I understand the "entitlement mentality."

I have a brother who's never taken any responsibility for
himself. I've bailed him out on so many occasions (and
still do). He's someone who will not change and I do worry
about his old age and what will happen to him. He's
in debt up over his head - and he keeps asking me for money.

Hassy you really are ignorant when it comes to the facts;

"Come on Paul, & try to dispute our welfare system is for bums, not decent real people"

The biggest section of society receiving direct welfare benefits are the aged. They cost the taxpayer $6 for every $1 spent on the unemployed. The other two groups which are more than 3 times the cost of the unemployed are families and those with disabilities.

Are you saying old folk, children and the disabled are the bums and not decent real people. I assume you class yourself as one of the decent real people. .

As long as we have an employment problem where over half a million Australians cannot get a job because one doesn't exist... then I'm guessing they will continue to feel "entitled" to be helped to get by and survive on the welfare net.
Some of you people either cant read or your brains have stopped working.

We sure don't need any more prisons Paul you dill, what we need is chain gangs in the old US style.

We could put the bums to work clearing those killer trees off our road verges.

Now that would be killing 2 birds with just the one stone.

Hassy, what are you doing up at 1am in the morning? Didn't Sister give you your little pink pill to send you off to 'La La Land' last night. You were not on the sauce again, were you.

As a person with an IQ of 47 and being of superior intellect as you are, can't you come up with a better insult than 'DILL', such a cliched word, I would have preferred even ignoramus or nincompoop to dill. I appreciate your insults, they reassure me I am on the right track. It is when you start agreeing with me, that I begin to worry.

As for your criminal neighbors, the ones offering "cash in hand" as a law abiding citizen please report them to the Taxation Office ASAP for prosecution under federal law, which prohibits the offering of cash payment to avoid tax. If I was them, but fortunately I am not of criminal class, I would have gone to the local authorized employment provider with the jobs to obtain legitimate employees. Or was it a case of a wink and a nod and ten bucks an hour, to pick cotton or what ever it was. We will never know.

"what we need is chain gangs in the old US style." Instead of staying up late posting drivel I suggest you watch the movie 'Cool Hand Luke' with Paul Newman, its right up your ally. In fact the character 'Dragline' played by George Kennady, fits you to a tee, thick up top, but loverable. If you don't have a copy, give me the address of your tree up there in the deep deep north and I'll send you one. I am a Paul Newman fan, great human being, all Paul's are.

Paul, "dill" is simply me being kind, rather than a description, totally inadequate for that.

Your right about my neighbours. Turned into criminals by our ridiculously generous welfare system, which leves no one wanting to work, they live in fear of being fined.

As for your reference of my totally suitable suggestion of a correctional system that would work, I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about.

You see, unlike greenies, I do not believe in fiction, such as global warming, & in fact never bother with it. I have no use for the ramblings of some creative ratbag. The various people & I presume fiction of your waffling about are obviously something produced for the inner city inactive clowns to substitute for any actual thought on their part.

Come on Hassy, don't tell me you've never seen the movie 'Cool Hand Luke' its a Paul Newman classic.

This could be you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBBWUZfgRiw

Paul and Co, the simple truth is the dole is too genrous and too easy to get. Once on it, especially fimiles, recipients are reluctent to take a job for fear of not getting back on it.

Just because one has a family doesn't mean the kids get looked after, and this is why paying cash is wrong.

A simple debit card that has restrictions on what can be purchased is all that is needed. It can be used to see the doctor, pay the rego and buy all foods, pay rent etc they just cant get cash.

You see under the current system, million that is provided by the tax payer, for the support of kids, simply does not filter down to the kids because it gets wated.

As hasbeen says, a tent and three cans of beans a day will soon see many find a job. Even if it is $15 an hour picking fruit. Thats just 17 hours per week, plenty of time left to find a better job.

Now for thise who are unemployable, why should they receive cash they can spend as they please.

Sorry, we are just too soft.

I'm surprised at you rehctub, there is no reason working people should help the bludgers run a car. With nothing to do all day, walking to the shop would be good exercise for them. Exercise is just as good for bludgers as it is for working folk.

My father used to tell me I was lucky he let me chop the wood for the stove & the fire. That way it warmed me twice. Once doing the work, then again sitting by the fire when we burnt it.

Paul I'll have to admit, I have been to the movies a couple of times. I actually went to see the original Star Wars movie in Gladstone. However I did so to see if it could live up to it's magnificent music. To my mind the best music of the 20th century.

Then I went to the yacht club in Rabaul in New Guinea to see Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid. Both were quite pleasant, but not interesting enough to get me to repeat the experiment, or ever watch a movie on TV. I an just not interested in so called drama particularly. It is simply some clown using it to push their world vision at me. No thanks. What you would call a classic, is what I see as crap.

Living below the poverty line is too generous.... ROTFLMAO
Losing all the assets you've amassed during your working life is too generous.... ROTFLMAO

Trying to pay your bills, feed your family, pay for doctors dentists and other assorted emergencies, and having to decide which one of these you can afford is too generous... ROTFLMAO

Why don't you clueless individuals opt out of the debate and stop wasting everyone elses time?

T800, some with a complete loathing for the unemployed need to create within themselves a justification for their attitude. No one wants to be seen simply as a hater. Haters will highlight individual examples, and then extrapolate and generalize the singular to encompass all. That is a tried and true method used to rationalize an unreasonable and distorted stance into what is believably acceptable, and therefore it becomes the necessary norm.
If you read some of the posts above the justifiable necessary action proposed is nothing more than thinly veiled forms of punishment.

Hassy, no comment on the fact 'Old Aged Pensioners' form the biggest majority of welfare "bludgers" in society. I know one old bloke on the pension, he cuts a few lawns for cash in hand! That scourge of society should be horse whipped, and have his soup ration cut in half. I seen an old woman in the Supermarket the other day, she was old so must have been a pensioner, buying a packet of 'Iced Vovo's', such luxury! 'Iced Vovo's' today, a 'Lamborghini' tomorrow. They are all doing it! Where will it end.

Paul and T800, i have worked since 1997 and was on the dole for three weeks after leaving school in 76. I remember then thinking how good is this, you leave school go on the dole and get handed $42 per fortnight FOR DOING NOTHING. To a 16yo kid it was like winning lotto. Of cause my parents had other ideas, having given birth to me, raised me and felt morally obliged to guide me to adult life. Boy how those days have changed, and one huge cause of this change is the fact that so many of today's parents are serial dole bludgers who actually loose interest in their kids once the subsidies run out.

Now while you see that as a harsh, cruel, comment, the fact is it is 'spot on' and gets worse depending on the area the kid is born and raised in. In fact, even kids raised in better areas can turn out badly, but behind most bad kids are worse parents.

One prime example are private schools where a portion of the kids are dropped off before school, left all day then picked up after the care centre closes, simply because the parents can afford it.

Some people just have to remove their rose coloured glasses and see what is actually going on. In fact, an article in the courier mail today points to tens of thousands of dole bludgers refusing to work, or accepting the job and not turning up, of deliberately getting sacked. A tent and three cans of beans a day will soon cure that.

And hasy, while I agree we should not be funding cars, their argument is how do we get a job. Yet another do-gooder stand.

We need a ruler in this country, not a smooth talker and perhaps Pauline might just be that person in times ahead.

Meanwhile we just have to sit back and watch our seniors give up their spoils so the do-gooders can continue to have their way supporting every non contributing dick in the neighbourhood and beyond.

Sorry, wrong button, i should have said worked since 1977.

On the topic i see some of us are not the only ones talking about bludgers and Scott Morrison is threatening to 'cut them off' if they refuse jobs. I just hope this includes fruit picking even if it is seasonal, because the last thing we need is competition for our jobs by 457 visa holders.

Let's hope he shows some balls, but im not holding my breath because sadly, the do-gooders are a very powerful loby group.

Well I see butcher its no use using facts or logic with you and appeals to compassion wont work since you have no empathy or the ability to put yourself in the shoes of those who find themselves less well off.

You don't recognise that older people who have worked all their lives and unfortunately find themselves suddenly unemployed are the vast majority of the unemployed. People who have paid taxes all their lives.

I hope you lose your job and become long term unemployed, because that seems to be the only way you will learn.