It's not looking good for the Cardinal. The two middle-aged men claiming to be victims of abuse seem genuine, and have nothing to gain at their stage of life. The story of an apparently disinterested member of the public is damning, if true.

However, the ABC has outrageously and unforgivabley started one of its trials by media and the excitable public before anyone has been charged.

Once again,our 'national broadcaster' has spat on the innocent until found guilty rule. The the right thing to do in any case of this kind is to start reporting it when someone has been charged.

I have since heard that the DPP has since returned the brief to police, which usually means that there is not enough evidence to make a case. And, it is the DPP which makes the decision to prosecute, not the police, the religion-hating comrades or their official mouthpiece, the ABC.

Many of you will be foaming at the mouth to hear that Fred Niall gave Pell a good 'reference' on radio.

This came at a good time for the Anglicans, they seem to have dropped out of the news.
However all allegations should be persued by the police.

I agree with what you've said TTBN, I'm afraid the media love to indict, conduct a Trial, and convict people, without the benefit of being appraised of all the facts, or observing the Rules of Evidence. In other words, the innocent often have their character totally besmirched for all time, based purely upon an allegation.

In my opinion, all investigations should be made confidential. Inquiries made by ICAC, and other investigative bodies should first be held in camera. Time enough to identify an individual after they've been charged, not before.

Whether Cardinal PELL has any case to answer, I wouldn't know? Nor do many within the media. It's up to police to establish the sufficiency of the facts in order for the DPP to lay a charge(s). Until then, his name should be kept confidential.

Is Mise,

They should be pursued, but if the evidence doesn't satisfy the DPP, they won't go ahead with it. Pell says he is willing to cooperate, but he will not fly, so guess who would have to pay for Australian police to go to him. Mind you, If I was wrongly accused of such an awful crime, and couldn't fly, I would find some way to get back to clear my name. Ships are an option. Of course he hasn't been charged; just had his reputation ruined by the ABC. The Vic police commissioner says "anything is possible", but only if it doesn't cost too much. And, there is more chance of ending up in jail for offences against property than against people in our court system. I doubt that we will see justice done.

OSW,

Glad we are still talking. Similarly,the media should wait for the RC into youth detenton in NT rather than encouraging the public to decide right from wrong without proper investigation by qualified people.

I find any of these accusations against anyone or any institution for that matter suspicious indeed.
Doesn't matter what the industry or field is.

That is mainly because they are based on human memory of events that supposedly occurred decades ago.

Ask any suitably qualified medical professional like psychiatrist or psychologist and they will inform you of this fallibility in the human condition.

Yet our judicial system is prone to accept their evidence based on this fact.

They could be conspiracies founded by groups of individuals in order to extract financial gain or have life long grudges against particular institutions or bodies rectified via the force of retribution.

Paedophilia accusations are so damning of reputations that even a
Not Guilty verdict is meaningless as the damage is long done.
Perhaps it should be an offence to publicise the existence of a police
investigation or even an accusation until a charge is laid.

The legals should be able to prescribe a rule to cover this area.

Hi there TTBN...

As I've indicated to you previously, I often agree with much of what you say ? For that reason, of course we're still talking, why not ?

Hi there BAZZ...

What you say is absolutely correct, people who have been wrongly accused of committing some of these socially scandalous and contemptible crimes like paedophilia, have often lost their good fame and character as a result of this 'trial by media' ? As a consequence, unable to face their family, neighbours, friends and workmates, commit suicide

Yes Bazz. Pell's reputation has been irreversibly trashed by the ABC, no matter what he did or did not do.

O Sung Wu,

Why not? No reason I can think of. And I will try to moderate my language in future.

If I was a Catholic Priest, and people asked my occupation, I would say "Used Car Salesman" just to protect my good name.

Paul,

Paedophilia is not a disease of the priesthood. It is an individual thing. I would stake my life on most Catholic priests being like most of us: decent people who abhor this disgusting practice. I would also think that the ratio of decency to perversion would the same among used car salesmen as it it would be with priests. I don't think posing as a used car salesman would necessarily guarantee that you were not paedophile:) Particularly as it is most unlikely that anyobody would think that you were one in the first place. And do you really believe that everybody who hears the word Catholic priest immediately thinks 'paedophile'! Are you sure that you it is not your obvious dislike of the Catholic church, and Christianity in general (which is perfectly OK, and you have every right to express that) get in the way of common sense, which I'm sure have plenty of on other issues?

Another point: we all have instincts, and I would be very sceptical of any normal adult who claimed never to have been attracted by, or had lewd thoughts about, an underaged teenager. The difference between most of us and abusers of young people is that we have self-discipline, morals enough to know that it is wrong and that we would not wish to ruin that young persons'life permanently, even if they were up for it, and that they are the daughter or son of someone just like us, and we also respect the law.

ttbn, there is, rightly or wrongly, a community perception/association between the occupation of Catholic priest and pedophilia.

I am anti Catholic Church, the institution, but not necessarily anti Catholic. As I have grandchildren who are Catholic, and attend Catholic school. The fact they are Catholic, does not diminish them in anyway in my eyes. My favorite niece is Mormon, my favorite sister-in-law in NZ is Jehovah Witness.
Our niece, a lovely person, is having issues with her Mormon faith and the demands of the church, and her personal relationship, ie boyfriend, who is not Mormon, and what is expected of her. In my opinion like many churches, Mormonism is rather inflexible and controlling. On the other side of the coin, good things have come to her through the church, particularly her 'mission' which was to a Pacific Island, and certainly strengthened her as a human being. Went from being a little girl to a confident woman in a couple of years. Now 30, it is considered overdue "marriage time", and to keep the faith a good Mormon boy should be the choice. Both mine and Aunties advice is at odds with the churches teachings. The little girl would most likely go along with the faith, but the confident woman may decide otherwise.In a way the Church is self defeating.

Hard to tell what to abominate the most - the Roman Catholic Church, Cardinal Pell, paedophilia, the gross irresponsibility and injustice of besmirching a person in the news media the way they have besmirched Pell in publicising accusations against him without court-tested evidence. I would favour a law mandating that all prosecutions and trials for such a despicable crime as child sex abuse remain embargoed unless and until there is a guilty verdict. Journalism has sunk catastrophically since the days when I was a journo.

one of the masterminds of the 'safe' schools program in Canada turned out to be a paedophile. No news from the abc on that one, just on Pell whom they seem to be so desperate to have prosecuted and demonise whether guilty or not.

Dear runner,

I really would have thought you would have left this thread alone. Time and time again the high practitioners of your faith have been found kiddie fiddling or buggering their way through generations of vulnerable kids.

They have been protected by other Christians and politicians and allowed to go on with their life destroying perversions.

The vast numbers of victims have blighted your faith for this generation and perhaps many more to come. I have little problem with those who have not seen any police action on their complaints approaching organisations like the ABC to have their stories told. I regard them as brave individuals who want to see the truth come out and justice be served. I think the ABC serves this community well when it brings these stories to the light because without them and others abuses by Christians in power would still be occuring. The actions of those who have been brave enough to come forward will undoubtedly save many a potential futre victim.

It is rather laughable that some on here, think people like George Pell and pedophilia are in some way a special case. That an individual like Pell should receive special consideration, that is not generally afforded to others in the community when confronted with allegations of a criminal nature. Investigations into Pell should be conducted in secretn not something I agree with, Pell should be given a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and a fair and open trial, he deserves nothing more or less.

I do not recall the ABC "serving the community" as avidly and with as much gleeful vigour when it comes to non-Catholic perverts. Don't kids deserve protection from all perverts, irrespective of their religion or lack of religion? The ABC is not in the business of 'serving' anybody but itself, and what its supporters and those people who have already condemned George Pell seem to forget is that the good old ABC has crudely prejudiced any prosecution case the could be brought against him. I don't believe Pell will be interviewed, charged, or ever see the inside of a court, thanks to the ABC. George Pells's reputation has already been ruined, but we will never know whether or not he deserves that punishment; any hack lawyer could put a very good argument that the man would not get justice after the ABC's malignant claims based on the allegations from 30 years ago. The ABC should stick to reporting arrests, charges, and court results, not trying to initiate them.

ttbn "I would stake my life on most Catholic priests being like most of us: decent people who abhor this disgusting practice."

Possibly but can you point to the place where Catholic leadership stood up against the abuse in a meaningful way while it was occurring but not public knowledge. The pattern of Catholic leadership seems to have been transferring offenders around to hide the problem, using church influence to stop offenders being prosecuted.

Perhaps there were heaps of bishops who handed the offenders over to the police and it's not made the media but the places where leadership was covering up abuse seem to be very widespread.

A couple of options in that. Either they are not like the rest of us and abhor the sexual abuse of children or their loyalty was to instructions from the Vatican on how to deal with said abuse (and the patterns of cover up seem remarkably similar). I suspect the latter but have not seen anybody admit to that one yet.

R0bert

It’s just as well you don’t have to, ttbn.

<<I would stake my life on most Catholic priests being like most of us: decent people who abhor this disgusting practice.>>

The more I hear about how rampant child sex abuse is in the Catholic Church, the more I wonder if their priests’ required vow of celibacy or their access to children makes the job attractive to those with unorthodox inclinations (as appears to also be the case with nuns and the Sisterhood). The fact that they're expected to remain celibate couldn't be helping the situation either.

I certainly wouldn’t be staking my life on such an assumption anymore. These accusations against Pell come as absolutely no surprise to me.

Yeah it was great Steelie wasn't it how the bbc turned a blind eye to Saville wasn't it. Not long ago one of you lefties claiming taking photo of young nude girls was art. Just so righteous aren't you Steelie.

We could always resurrect the 'Inquisition'. send down Pell, and I'm sure with a bit of good old fashioned persuasion, the inquisitors will have George singing like bird in no time. No need for the ABC when you have your very own 'Inquisition'.

Robert,

There is certainly no excuse for the for the cover-ups by bishops. They should be dealt with by courts as well. But, most of them and the offending priests are dead anyway, thanks to the cover-ups. I'm constantly advised that "not all Muslims are terrorists". All I am saying is not all Catholic priests are paedophiles. And I stick to my belief that the ABC's main game is pure hatred of Catholicism in particular, and Christianity in general.

AJ,

It has nothing to do with celibacy. The latest accused is an ex-Anglican priest who switched to the Catholics as a priest. He was already married before the change. Anglican priests who have offended against children are not celibate, nor are Salvationists celibate; neither have ofending atheist perverts been bound by celibacy. I am not a Catholic. I have no reason to defend Catholics. I see only the gross hypocrisy of certain people, and the ABC, cynically using the shocking crime of paedophilia as a platform for religion bashing. I find it bloody disgraceful! There is absolutely no evidence against George Pell, and you know that as well as I do. Trial by media and activists is not acceptable in Australia.

Dear runner,

We hear tonight on the ABC of a number of Christian priests in Newcastle who repeatedly abused countless young boys despite parents going to the Bishop to have it stopped. It never was. One of these Christian officials use a knife to cut the young lad's back as he was buggering him, apparently to symbolise the blood of Christ which he would smear over his torso.

This lad was buggered nearly every week by Christian clergy for nearly 3 years.

Yet you and others would rather condemn the ABC for airing these stories than condemn leaders of your own faith who severly abused so many Australian children.

I would hate to think of how many of these youngsters ended up taking their own lives either directly or by the long spiral of self medication with drugs and alcohol but i can guarantee it would be may times more than victims of Islamic terrorism.

Shame, shame, shame.

Well said Steele. I find it contradictory from people like runner, who on the one hand are happy to see the popular media publicly name and shame people of their choice 'A Current Affair' on channel 9 almost nightly conduct trial by media of all sorts of people, from dodgy plumbers to alleged terrorists. Then when the media air allegations against one of his own, in this case George Pell, he demands a blanket of secrecy be thrown over the whole affair.
The independent media, for all its failings, plays a vital roll in society by openly, and hopefully critically, reporting allegations involving police. It is always dangerous for a free society to tolerate secret investigations by authority, which can have undesired consequence for all.

ttbn,

Just because all those other categories of people have child sex abusers, that doesn’t mean that celibacy cannot be an aggravating factor. You’re employing the same logic here that you did on another thread where you implied that anomalies to a trend prove that that trend does not exist (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18413&page=0#326647). You’ve also ignored the fact that child sex abuse is far more rampant among the priesthood.

--

“…another member of the commission, also discounted any direct link between celibacy and being an abuser, “because, otherwise, all people who live a celibate life would abuse. Since this is not the case, there cannot be a single, mono-causal link.”

“But he added: “That’s not to say, in some instances, people may choose celibacy in a more or less conscious or unconscious way to avoid sexuality and to avoid a deviant sexuality.” In such cases, he said, they “may choose celibacy so they can feel [they are] in a safe haven where they don’t need to confront it.

“Such an attitude, he said, “is absolutely nonsense,” as people “cannot simply shut away their sexuality” for years and decades. “So the attempt to cut off or put it in a fridge forever doesn’t work.”

He stressed that clinical pedophilia is a condition “whose onset is at the age of 16, that is, before anyone enters a seminary.” For this reason, he said, a celibate lifestyle “in a certain way may become too difficult to bear for the person in terms of loneliness and in pressure of not living a well-established and good, self-caring — in the best sense of the word — life.””

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/is-there-a-link-between-priestly-celibacy-and-sexual-abuse

--

The above is basically what I was getting at.

//You’ve also ignored the fact that child sex abuse is far more rampant among the priesthood.//

Is it? Do you have any quantitative data to support this assertion?

Is it possible that child sex abuse among the priesthood is just far more rampantly reported than child sex abuse amongst other professions? Horror stories about paedophile priests make good headlines, but when was the last time you saw a story about a paedophile tradesman? Or scientist? And yet, we know that they must exist. Media reports are not an accurate reflection of statistical realities.

If it is the case priests are more likely to commit child sex abuse, I still don't see the logical connection with celibacy: most Protestant priests aren't required to be celibate.

Okay, Toni Lavis. I’ll withdraw that comment. Although, for the reasons I mention above, and the apparent culture of the priesthood, I’d be quite happy to put money on it if there were a way of finding out one way or the other.

<<If it is the case priests are more likely to commit child sex abuse, I still don't see the logical connection with celibacy: most Protestant priests aren't required to be celibate.>>

I’ve mentioned a logical connection a couple of times now. Do you mean to say that you don’t see the statistical connection? Protestant ministers and priests aren’t required to remain celibate, but does child sex abuse occur as frequently among them?

A J Philips:

"Protestant ministers and priests aren’t required to remain celibate, but does child sex abuse occur as frequently among them?"

There is no way of knowing because not every act of child abuse is reported. It could be that they abuse their own children. It is about how you access children and not about celibacy.

Catholic priests and religious teachers had certain conditions which gave them access to children and also a certain power over them because when a priest says "this is what God wants you to do" you do it. It is about access and power and not about sexual satisfaction.

It is no more about sex than is rape simply about sexual gratification.

Not as frequent among Christians as among RCs, but just as devastating if today's Newcastle allegations are true. Use of statistics to tar members of any subgroup of the community with the one brush in unjust, especially if it doesn't include estimates of the numbers of the subgroup who have NOT molested children or in any way facilitated child abuse.

The issue that bugs me most in this is not the existence of paedophile priests. They like any abusers have massive problems but also made choices to abuse. What really irks me is the apparent systemic cover ups and placing known abusers back into positions where further opportunities to abuse occurred, seemingly time after time. Based on what I've seen of the numbers and the patterns the catholic leadership must have known there was a problem, not just an isolated case but sufficient numbers that alarm bells should have been ringing. It appears from the outside that the only alarm bells that rang were ones about protecting the church. None about protecting those being abused. BTW its not just the paedophile priests, from the stories I've heard from women who had the benefit of being in the care of "nuns" as children the types of abuse inflicted go well beyond just the sexual. R0bert

phanto,

I agree that access to children could be a factor. I alluded to this earlier. But research involving rape scripts suggest that claims of power being the sole driving force behind rape and sexual assault are exaggerated. There appears to be all sorts of motives behind why someone rapes or sexually assaults another, and these can also differ depending on situational factors and whether or not the perpetrator knows the victim. (Beauregard & Leclerc, 2007)

A J Philips:

I didn't say rape was about power. I said power over children is one of the factors that leads to conditions which favour pedophilia. Access to children is another condition. I was making the point that instances of abuse are more likely to occur where conditions are more favourable whether the person is celibate or not. It is about opportunity and not sexual lifestyle.

In the same way rape is about opportunity and not about sexual lifestyle. A person rapes because they can - the opportunity presents itself. It does not say anything about the pros or cons of their lifestyle. They might be happily married with a good sexual relationship at home but they still rape.

Why not consider abuse more broadly, as patterns of behavior over time. What can the Stolen Generations and others tell us about all of this starting from the end of WWII?

The war victors of that time, in the shadow of terrible atrocities, undertook to stand up against crimes against humanity, in all of its forms, including its precursors.

But is it not true that children were not only abused, but whored out of "stations" and "missions" in some parts of Australia in the aftermath of this.

One of my concerns has always been that if you tolerate child abuse in any of its forms, soon enough the perpetrators will be abusing your own kids.

I'd love to see a history on any vigilantism that occurred as a consequence of this. But alas, I digress.

A unified approach is required, to get down there in suits with crow bars and lift the lid on all of the fetid sh!t wholes in this tin pot little place. Aged Care, Disability, Private Homes etc must all be able to be called to answer allegations as and when they arise, quickly and easily. We can well do without a patchwork quilt on this one for still there are those who are suffering who you may yet save, sooner rather than later.

As for Pell et al had these people come out in the early stages and screamed, "Christ! Devil Spawn walks among us and predates upon the Faithful, and we have been blind to it. Quick, gather with all hast, and let us unite to seek truth and justice!"

But no, they did everything they could it would appear to cover up, with their little towards healing tribunals offering some peanuts for silence.

And then, surprise, surprise, the allegations go right to the Bishop himself. .. And to see how the law here can be used to provide haven for such criminals for such lengths of time is again, perhaps not that surprising.

Best way to sway the others is by example, without excessive self promotion. Best get about it Australia ..

"They might be happily married with a good sexual relationship at home but they still rape."

phanto my suspicion is that is one of those half truths put out to try and score political points rather than provide an accurate view of risk factors. Like the DV can happen in any home, sort of true but it ignores a whole lot of correlation factors. Eg I suspect it is much more likely in conjunction with other significant dis-functionality.

I've not found much in the way of credible metadata research on the topic.

A few interesting links I have come across
- http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/20/crake.pdf
- https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence
- https://www.nsopw.gov/en/Education/FactsStatistics?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1#sexualabuse

R0bert

I wonder why so many paedophile clergy are homosexual?

Is Mise:

They're not. They just want to hold the child within.