The Forum > General Discussion > Aboriginal sword fight
Aboriginal sword fight
- Pages:
-
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
-
- All
Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 8 October 2015 6:20:40 AM
| |
"So it looks like an Indonesian kris dagger or iron sword was in central Oz 800 years ago"
Yes, there were continuing visits by fishermen from S.E.Asia, esp., Indonesia. Indonesia has a long tradition of long edged weapons as tools and carried as personal kit (tradition). The interesting aspect of that discovery was how certain academics leapt upon it to create speculation in the media to promote the highly controversial meme of a British 'invasion' of Oz and 'Territorial wars'. What absolute bollocks! I consider myself most fortunate to have completed my initial tertiary studies in the 'hard' sciences and before the blight of social scientists who play politics. Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 8 October 2015 10:37:43 AM
| |
I see.
The skull was the basis for ridiculous claims about the Indigenous land-owners . There was an unanimous chorus of approval along the Darling river as James Cook tossed the fly-blown corpse of the south land to George III and Charles III. Indonesian invasion was blocked by the Settlement Act 1701 which is held in the Lower Saxon State Archives, Hanover Germany. Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 8 October 2015 11:43:45 AM
| |
James Cook, George III and Charles III? That is ridiculous.
Any speculation concerning the British, including 'frontier wars' and 'invasion' is absolute rubbish, gossip mongering. <Dr Rachel Wood The human remains were much, much older than we were expecting. For the bone and for the tooth, we have an age of around 1260 to 1280 AD. So much, much earlier than we thought it was going to be. For the gastrolith, we've got an age somewhere in the 1400s to 1600s. Dr Michael Westaway I didn't expect the carbon dates to be anything like that. I thought they were going to be very modern. And the carbon dates suggest no, it's 700 years old. That means that there are weapons being used by people in western New South Wales that are creating signatures that look like, you know, sword wounds.> http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4211835.htm Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 8 October 2015 12:18:41 PM
| |
OK , back at square one.
What exactly is incorrect and what is correct ? Don't be shy. Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 8 October 2015 12:37:03 PM
| |
Could well have been a stone axe, flaked edge axes are very sharp and well capable of cleaving a human skull, let alone inflicting a cut in the bone.
Ground stone axes can also be sharp, though not as sharp as the flaked variety. Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 8 October 2015 9:18:51 PM
| |
nicknamenick,
The carbon dating is correct. The ABC should be judged harshly for making up a speculative gossip story about British 'frontier wars' and 'invasion' out of what is a very ordinary find concerning ONE skull. Is Mise, Yes, a stone implement was mentioned in a previous thread on the same subject by nicknamenick. Not something he is accepting, although the academics have not ruled it out. The ABC report is in my view yet another example of the media dealing in half-truths and creating foolish speculation. The ABC knows that some people will not be listening or reading past the superficial, sometimes misleading, headlines. How often do we see that? Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 8 October 2015 9:33:01 PM
| |
Well the ABC at the first stage didn't have the dating and it recorded the comments of observers as they worked through the investigation. They showed texts written by others. For example, I have one describing police campaigns to shoot a tribe. Farmers did it along the valley a century ago where I grew up, and off a cliff top north of here.
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 9 October 2015 6:26:12 AM
| |
"....and off a cliff top north of here."
where would that be? Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 October 2015 8:31:41 AM
| |
It's at
nla.gov/nla.news-articles61876358 The forum won't allow me to paste. We lived in a street named Irby after the farmer who led the attacks. Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 9 October 2015 8:46:22 AM
| |
This is a terrible forum layout. Here's another link to that:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/61876358 Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 9 October 2015 8:50:35 AM
| |
Wasted my time. I got as far as, "It is said that.."
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 9 October 2015 9:42:34 AM
| |
We don't have photos of Jews being gassed at Auschwitz in Poland. No diary about " how I was pushed inside and the guards turned on the gas". No Aboriginal diary survives about "how I fell off the cliff".
Just this diary: Commissioner MacDonald reported that in October 1844 a shepherd had been killed by Aborigines on the Irby Station at Bolivia, but no retalitory action was mentioned in the despatch. However, Edward Irby himself, when writing of the incident, describes how one of his shepherds, Robinson, had been killed by Aborigines and how four men had set out to find the culprits. In these few simple words he described in his journal the terrible deeds of that day: "The blacks saw us coming and hid themselves on the rocks. One, in his haste, dropped poor Robinson's coat so we knew we were onto the right tribe. If they had taken to their heels they might have got away, instead of doing so, they got their fighting men to attack us. So we punished them severely and proved our superiority to them." Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 9 October 2015 10:11:07 AM
| |
I knew this author near our farm. We had a polished stone axe found near the Falls country mentioned. These valuable axes would only be dropped if the owner was unable to continue. It was found near an early sheep pen of bush poles as used by shepherds at night.
Baal Belbora: - Google Books Result https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1925029220 Geoffrey Blomfield - 2013 - ‎Education He continued: 'It was common after an inroad of the blacks upon the sheep and cattle, ... for a regular and indiscriminate slaughter in which young and old were shot down. ... .Men, women and children are butchered without distinction or stint. . .it ... on horseback, and he had first to set up facilities for his men and horses. Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 9 October 2015 10:17:55 AM
| |
Whilst not doubting that there were incidents where killings took place, I must point out that Bluff Rock has no real cliffs, it has some very steep bits and some near to sheer but none of these could be approached closely on horseback and any aborigines on the Rock could have retreated into good cover among the many fissures in it.
There is a local book that has a lot to say about the so called "Massacre of Bluff Rock" but it is all conjecture, and even though there is a monument to the supposed massacre it was erected with more good intention than historical accuracy. There are many versions of the tale so one can take one's pick. Having ridden on horseback to the top of the Rock and clambered over much of it on foot (when much younger and fitter!) I have no doubt that local aboriginals, of the time, would have had no problem in evading Europeans. Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 9 October 2015 11:16:36 AM
| |
Irby explains it :
"The blacks saw us coming and hid themselves on the rocks. One, in his haste, dropped poor Robinson's coat so we knew we were onto the right tribe. If they had taken to their heels they might have got away, instead of doing so, they got their fighting men to attack us". -- Probably no-one suggests they rode horses over the granite which is risky at the best of times. But 4 men on foot with guns would find a group of women and children in crevices easily enough. Port Denison Times. 1 May 1869 wrote : More than 400 natives are killed each year in Queensland. _ "Written in Sand". F Williams. Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 9 October 2015 12:56:47 PM
| |
nicknamenick,
You do yourself NO favours at all peddling the attention-seeking, divisive, foul polemics of white leftist activists that compare the benign settlement of Australia with the Holocaust, South African Apartheid, invasions and territory wars. Find a job or volunteering to occupy yourself and do something productive with your life. There are too many activists swinging from the taxpayers teat already. Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 10 October 2015 10:31:41 AM
| |
erm..
the quotes are from right wing establishment nationalists. You are putting words in my mouth. why would you do that? Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 10 October 2015 11:15:34 AM
| |
The author of Baal Belbora sent his son, whom I knew in 1959, to The Kings School , Sydney, who wore army uniform.
Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 10 October 2015 11:18:52 AM
| |
nnn,
"Probably no-one suggests they rode horses over the granite which is risky at the best of times. But 4 men on foot with...." But that is exactly what is said to have been done in some versions of the story; that the horsemen forced them to jump by crowding them with the horses. If you've ever been on the top then you would know that it is impossible to get near the edge on horseback as the slope is far from being a safe place, even on foot (particularly with hard boots on). Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 10 October 2015 12:37:55 PM
| |
OK people say that. However Irby gives an account about vengeance for murder by an Aboriginal. It happened.
It's not the point of the ABC doco except as a setting for the use of a sword. It's not my point which is about bashing a pig skull. Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 10 October 2015 1:03:29 PM
| |
nicknamenick, "You are putting words in my mouth"
That so? Then there must be someone else posting in your name, see here, nicknamenick, <We don't have photos of Jews being gassed at Auschwitz in Poland. No diary about " how I was pushed inside and the guards turned on the gas".> [Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 9 October 2015 10:11:07 AM] Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 10 October 2015 3:50:01 PM
| |
I was comparing the denial of the events.
For the record , there was no general government policy to kill Aboriginals. But there is multiple official , newspaper and diary recording of killings of Aboriginals. If you want to deny it , OK. But ordering me not to say it and your personal abuse explains the nature of your attitude. Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 10 October 2015 4:15:22 PM
|
As ANU dated the skull to late 1200s the general opinion is that a sharp mulga wood blade caused it. A test was promised in July then changed to November.
So I tracked down mulga wood from Loggerhead timber Qld and a fresh pig head from an Armidale butcher. It has a half smile and peaceful eyes and smooth skin.
The sharpened mulga blade whacked the freshly skinned cranium of ~8-9mm thickness compared with human ~7-8mm. Small dent. After 6 strikes on the one spot there is ~20mm long groove above the left eye and my final blow to try to get a slice in the opened cortex broke the mulga.
I dropped an axe on the cranium and sliced deep. A garden spade above the right eye sliced deep. Swords are around 2-5mm thick.
The Aust Museum sharp mulga blades are ~5-10mm thick at 10mm back from edge and mine is ~8m thick at 10mm back from edge. It's this need for thick structure that prevents slicing and just breaks bones.
The Toorale cut is at a shallow angle but mulga just bounces at that angle. No-one makes wooden axes or spades.
So it looks like an Indonesian kris dagger or iron sword was in central Oz 800 years ago.