I have long admired Paul Sheehan as a political writer and this morning he argues the case for Aus to take more refugees from the ME, but only the Christian type.

I agree entirely as the Christians have endured the most persecution in Syria and Iraq.

On top of that the muslims have given us the most trouble of any immigrant group, by not integrating and not compromising to fit into our society.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/operation-rescue-the-christians-of-the-middle-east-face-extinction-20150906-gjg9p2.html

We certainly do not need any more Muslims here, but I don't think that we should have any more GENUINE refugees here than the current 13,750 per year that we take in now. Abbott talks rubbish on occasion, but he is correct in saying that Australia, per capita, takes more than any other country. I agree - no more Muslims. But my view is no more people other than than people we choose because they are of use to Australia. The refugee business is a racket.

If Saudi Arabia and the rich emirates are not talking in Muslims, why should we take in foreign Christians? When did we get so religious?

This video shows the reality of the "crisis", 95% of the "asylum seekers" are young men, this is an absolute disaster for Europe this is not people seeking refuge, as the woman in the video says this is war spilling out of the middle east and continuing on the streets of European cities.
http://www.facebook.com/pitupitu4/videos/418664468327501/

More from the Island of Kos last month
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFz8iU9EBjA
Hungary: Riot police use tear gas as refugees attempt to break out of detention camp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wap-ttwEgFw

If anyone you know is expressing sympathy for the invaders or supporting the idea of bringing more here slap them in the face to wake them up, sit them down and make them watch those videos.

I knew this would be Banjo's thread once I read the title.
Have you guys all been over to the Southern U.S. to be fitted with your white pointy hats and gowns yet?
You should all be ashamed of yourselves....

Suse, you mean have we joined the U.S.Democratic party yet?
The few women and children in the hordes now rampaging across Europe are little more than human shields and it's obvious that many are there against their will:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wap-ttwEgFw

Muslim migrants in Macedonia refuse Red Cross parcels because of... the red cross
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeMIX90-594
Calais: Illegals complain and throw away food given by French leftists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbTSdUdQeLY
African Immigrants rampage holiday city in Spain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nOoApMMz88
Italy: Illegal immigrants complain and riot over ''poor living conditions''
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYGmazGwa-g
African refugees attack a vehicle in Italy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXurSjsE9tw
Illegal Immigrants fight in Dresden, Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhy3lZKJs9w
Watch African migrants destroy southern Italy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX73ggsMNEI

I'm for taking only atheist refugees, for upping the overall number by 10000 p.a., and raising the tax to settle them. Surely there are 10000 atheist refugees amongst the 60 million out there?

The extremely religious of all persuasions are not happy letting others live with different beliefs or non-belief, and how do we tell them apart from the moderates?

I don't want to sell our kids and grand-kids short. Call me a bigot, but a pox on all religious who can't respect the secularist ideal, family before State, State before God. Let their religion inform their views then leave it at that!

A lot are Economic refugees.
Quote from Kate O'Sullivan, a communications officer from Save the Children's emergency response unit.
"Everybody I speak to, most of them want to move on [to other European countries], they're very aware that Greece has an economic crisis," she said.

"They're not looking to impose themselves, they're just seeking a better life."

yep having those who believe in being faithful to ones wife and family, to having a decent work ethic is abhorrent to the regressives. They would rather people undermining everything that made this nation propserous. What fools!

I personally would not take any more refugees as I believe 13750 is more than reasonable for us to take per year.

However I see the pressure mounting to take more and I concede it is likely that the intake will be much higher, which I hope will only be a one off measure.

Therefore the is an opportunity now to help those in the greatest need, the non muslims, who are persecuted by both side in this conflict.

These people are in camps in Iraq and Syria so from there we can make our selection and ensure that we take only genuine refugees. We also get the advantage that those we bring in will have far fewer cultural conflicts with our society.

Abbott says that there will no increase in overall intake, Banjo. When he said that he would stop the boats, he stopped the boats. All we can do is hope that he is telling the truth this time, too. There is no reason for any Western country to take in these hordes of country shoppers. They only get what they want because Europe has caved in: it is too weak and tired to resist. That's what happens when countries surrender their sovereignty to centralized pen pushers in Brussels. Fortunately, we have sea border, and, for all its faults, the goverment we have. Only if the Coalition is no more than the better or two bad parties, I shudder to think what the flood of wealthy "refugees" in designer jeans and pure silk headscarves, risking their kid's lives for greed, would be like if Green/Labor was at the wheel.

How do atheists undermine prosperity, oh dear runner?

This should be good.

Why Australia is obliged to rush across the world to rescue?

What about this,

<How many Syrian refugees have the Arab world’s six wealthiest nations resettled? Close to zero

Ishaan Tharoor, Washington Post | September 7, 2015 11:06 AM ET

..A fair amount of attention has fallen on the failure of many Western governments to adequately address the burden on Syria’s neighboring countries, which are struggling to host the brunt of the roughly 4 million Syrians forced out of the country by its civil war.

Some European countries have been criticized for offering sanctuary only to a small number of refugees, or for discriminating between Muslims and Christians. There’s also been a good deal of continental hand-wringing over the general dysfunction of Europe’s systems for migration and asylum.

Less ire, though, has been directed at another set of stakeholders who almost certainly should be doing more: Saudi Arabia and the wealthy Arab states along the Persian Gulf.

As Amnesty International recently pointed out, the “six Gulf countries — Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain — have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees.” This claim was echoed by Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, on Twitter:

//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

..Moreover, these countries aren’t totally innocent bystanders. To varying degrees, elements within Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the U.A.E. and Kuwait have invested in the Syrian conflict, playing a conspicuous role in funding and arming a constellation of rebel and Islamist factions fighting the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

None of these countries are signatories of the United Nations’ 1951 Refugee Convention, which defines what a refugee is and lays out their rights, as well as the obligations of states to safeguard them...>

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/how-many-syrian-refugees-have-the-arab-worlds-six-wealthiest-nations-resettled-close-to-zero

Anyone see the online photo today of young, fit-looking Arabic males taking a selfy of themselves, having made their illegal entry (invasion of) Europe. Cute, eh? They would be more useful staying home and fighting for their country instead of letting the West do it (stupidly) while they bludge on the West, criticising it, and get ready to take it over.

ttbn
Yes, yes I have:
BIG NEWS! Finland: PM Taken in by Jihadist Criminal Liar Posing as ‘Boy Refugee’
http://www.knightstemplarinternational.com/big-news-finland-pm-taken-in-by-jihadist-criminal-liar-posing-as-boy-refugee/

A great article:
Aylan Nation by Guillaume Durocher
http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2015/9/8/aylan-nation

It's upsetting I know, but Europe is finished, it's all over for them now, the hatred the European elites have for their indigenous subjects has triumphed at last. We've tried to tell the "bleeding hearts" that everything they hold dear, their tolerance and pluraism,their values, their liberalism, their culture will be the first things to go up in flames because they'll be crushed between neo-Fascists or similar attacking on one side and Islamic extremism on the other.
We all know what's going to happen in Europe in the coming months and years because most of us can remember Lebanon in the 1970's and Yugoslavia in the 1990's. Get ready for a tidal wave of shell shocked European liberal refugees and prepare your sons to go back to Europe in khaki and slouch hat in the footsteps of their great, great grandfathers.

Couldn't agree more Banyo, if you wish to come here, leave your baggage behind. That applies to all, not just muslims.

ISIS are making the rather bold claim that they have sent 4000 fighters to Europe with the "refugees", cast your mind back to January 7 of this year, recall the events which unfolded in Paris and understand that just two men and a copycat attacker sent one of Europe's largest and most capable Police forces into a flat spin and sent the city into lockdown.
What happens when they have five or ten or twenty simultaneous attacks, like they do in Baghdad on an almost daily basis?
I say once again to the lefties, the liberals and the "bleeding hearts", you will lose everything you value and be forced to compromise all your beliefs and ideals and if you've ever tried to put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi or a Palestinian or imagine what their lives are like then at least you've prepared yourself mentally for what's coming.
Go online, watch some videos on Live Leak and start role playing with your kids what to do and how to behave at military checkpoints so that you don't get shot, then teach them what to do when they hear gunfire or a bomb goes off.

Well what do we have here?

A sad bunch of bitter old farts who are feeling left out after their little dance in the sunshine due to the fearmongering that Abbott used to get himself into power.

Don't you lot get it? Australians are pretty decent people and that decency is leaving Abbott and his little bunch of sycophants behind on this issue. Most of us want to see this country finally stand up and be counted. We are sick to death of being cited by the UN for our treatment of refugees, indeed sick to death of our selfishness when it comes to tackling many of the big dilemmas facing our world including climate change. Most of all we are sick to death of Abbott.

Hopefully the bile and bitterness you have spewed out so triumphantly over the last couple of years will return to its proper place of ridicule where far right rantings belong.

SteeleRedux - Quote "Australians are pretty decent people" you are correct, but you miss the most important human factor, with every situation there is a point where people say "Enough is Enough" that also applies to all people.

The Government are partly responsible for some of the people wanting to bring in more refugees because of the failure to more publicly show the real cost of the refugees we already have and the numbers who have been on welfare ever since the arrived, also the real crime statistics of the refugees.

If stated I would bet a lot of those people would have a different opinion.

Also the MSM's failure to report what the refugees are doing in the countries they are in overseas, like Germany and Greece.

Jay and other sensible Australians,

I believe all of the suckers trying to show us how 'nice' and 'compassionate' they are -screeching for more 'refugees to be taken in - truly believe that THEY will not be affected by the intake of people totally averse to our culture and values, THEY being such nice, welcoming people. They they think it's only we 'bad guys' who will suffer when the brown stuff starts hitting the fan.

The media endlessly show families and children, but that is not a true picture. 72% of refugees are men, mostly young.
Source: http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html

What I don't understand is why there isnt a cry for a national debate on the pro's and con's of accepting these people, both short and longterm.

Our leaders - our elites - are doing this because it makes them feel good and because it earns them the praise and adulation of the media, academia, big business, big government and the clergy.

The consequences of this mass immigration of people that will not only not integrate, but also will cause social problems and financial burden, is unthinkable -- but the common people are of little concern to our elites.

One thing is certain, accepting 400,000 (or whatever number) today only means that 4 million will be knocking on the door tomorrow.

The future will not be nice (as I have been saying for years)

Steele - the problem in this case is that "Australians are pretty decent people" is only half of the equation.

The values and beliefs of other half, those coming uninvited, need to be examined to see if they accept the values of the so-called "pretty decent folks"

I say that if an immigrant is Muslim, his values are dubious. He or she accepts the hate and violence in the Quran. He or she has no problem with the evil deeds of Mohammad, a man that attacked his neighbors dozens and dozens and dozens of times, for 10 years constantly, committing all manner of atrocities. He or she has also lived in an Islamic society that persecutes and discriminates against non-Muslims, and probably never objected to this.

The values of Islam and Muslims are not compatible with Western culture. Muslims come and they bring Mr."I am made victorious with terror" in their hearts.

What could go wrong?

kactuz,

You are right about children being used for softening up, but we can expect nothing better from callous and selfish parents who risk the lives of their kids to do a spot of country shopping.

The media is complicit, too. The Left & Foreign Invaders ABC has really been pushing tight closeups of some gorgeous kids. No ugly ones with snotty noses, though.

The really worst example of sleeze and shockingly, poor taste, however, comes from whoever was responsible for airing the photographed image of a little boy's corpse all over the world. That's what got self-serving politicians and loony left foaming at the mouth.

But it worked. Sentiment overcomes common sense with the chattering, Australia-bashing class, anytime. While we should be all saddened by the sight (as we would be if the media didn't have the sense of decorum and respect for a human, dead body it exercises normally), but is no good reason to change policy as the ranting of the lunatic fringe suggests.

TTBN,

That photo was heart breaking. No one can be unmoved by the loss of a young child. Even so, that is not the whole story.

His father said that the children (?) "just slipped out of his hands". Did he not jump in to save his son? Was he in the water? or in a boat? I really don't understand the situation but it makes one wonder.....

The fact is that the man did not save his son. As I said, I don't know all the facts but it is a strange story - and a young child died because of his father's decisions and actions.

The drowned toddler is a strange, fearful story,

http://pamelageller.com/2015/09/story-told-by-father-of-drowned-toddler-aylan-kurdi-is-full-of-holes.html/

What action if any is being taken against that man?

Kactuz,
The father of the drowned boys wasn't even on the boat, that was established days ago, he'd sent his family on ahead because the Germans are a bunch of softies when it comes to women and children, his plan was to follow on later. The family had been in Turkey for three years, so his story about fleeing ISIS is a lie, ISIS weren't in Syria three years ago and they have no presence in Damascus where the Kurdi family normally reside.

Steele, let me give you a prediction. Organised crime in Germany is dominated by Lebanese and Kosovar gangs, the Lebanese Mhallami clans, the Al Zein and Miri control narcotics and vice in Berlin, Bremen, Duesberg, Dresden and other major centres. When the Syrians, Afghans and Somalis begin to muscle in on their turf what would you expect the result to be? I'll go out on a limb and predict an all out gang war over the coming winter but that's only the start, Steele from where are most Jihadis currently recruited in the West? That's right, in jail or from the street gangs.
Tony Abbott and his advisors can see the things I, ttbn, Kactuz and the others see and it's their job to think two or three moves ahead, not just react on a purely emotional level. See many of us "old farts" aren't given to bouts of anguish and remorse over propaganda photos of dead children, we can look at them without losing our composure.

kactuz,

Jay is right. The father wasn't even there. Says a lot about him - apart form his being a liar - that he would leave the mother and two kids to do the voyage. I wonder if he will still be able to get his new teeth free?

ttbn,
The father may have been in Kobane at some point in the last year, that part is plausible since he may have been fighting alongside or assisting the Peshmerga as ISIS overran the bastion there a year or so ago, it also explains his failed asylum claim.
The Kurdis had applied for asylum in Canada where they have family but were knocked back, it's probable that Kurdi senior was on a terrorism watch list if he's associated with the PKK, which is a proscribed organisation in most western countries.
Nevertheless the photo of little Aylan Kurdi was staged for the cameras, Reuters captured the whole sequence of events as the boy's body was removed from the rock crevass where it had washed up and posed by officials on the beach, there was nothing spontaneous about it the whole thing was a propaganda photo shoot.
I really wish we could upload images here, I've got the pictures at hand and they clearly show what went on but with Google being a pro refugee company they censor search results.

Bingo, found it on a Dutch site, in Dutch.
http://webcdn.aa.com.tr/webdocs/625x424xc/content_new/983/aylan-kurdi_web-jpg20150904092745.jpg
It's the same kid, shoes with reddish-orange soles and dark uppers, other photos show him being carried to and from the position in which the propaganda stills and video were taken.
This isn't the first time staged, if not outright fabricated material has been passed off as real or promoted without disclaimers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95LcIHNQnCk
Be very wary of atrocity stories and the "big lie".

SteeleRedux, where do we take the money from.

Now there would not be a problem had one Kevin 07 not arrived, with his grand plan to save the world, and where is he now, most certainly not offering to drop his tax payer funded golden hand shake that's for sure. One can't help but wonder where we could be now and how we could have helped had we not gone down the Kevin 07 path.

But you already know that, you just won't accept it.

"My children slipped from my hands," Mr Kurdi told Turkey's Dogan News Agency on Thursday. "We tried to hold on to the boat, but it deflated rapidly. Everyone was screaming. I could not hear the voices of my children and my wife."
http://www.smh.com.au/world/refugee-crisis-my-sons-slipped-from-my-hands-says-abdullah-kurdi-20150904-gjez4o.html

Jay and TTBN.... So you are telling me that a bunch of people lied!! How horrible. Would a respected newspaper, a news agency and even the police lie to promote an agenda?

Yes, in a second -- or even less.

I thought it strange that a father should lose his family, making no serious effort to save them. It didn't sound right, even for people not known for their dedication to truth, life and liberty. This Kurdi is scum.

Well, I guess he really couldn't hear the voices of his family, from miles away on shore.

Unfortunately too many refugees lie to us so that they can get away from the mess created by them and their co-religionists. Then they come and they bring their mess with them. We are doomed.

Dear Kactuz,

What are the odds (law of averages) that all of the media has
lied?

Logic dictates that yes - there are liars - but somehow
I doubt very much that it's the media - all
telling us the same story.
And if the father is so bad - why is he staying in his
own village now to be near the grave-sites of his wife and
children?

'What are the odds (law of averages) that all of the media has
lied? ' very high especiually Fairfax and the abc.

Foxy,

I don't really know. One thing that I have learned in my long life is that truth is a foggy field often coloured by misconceptions and biases.

One can be 100% honest and still mislead by emphasis and omission.

That is why we should never be afraid to hear the other side of the story, to be criticized or to be challenged by 'facts' (which should be verified to the extent possible).

I don't think all the media lies, all the time. However, I do believe that most people in the media understand that certain attitudes may cause them problems, and because of this, they will distort certain things for their own good. It is called being human.

As a nobody, a by-stander, I have the luxury of saying what I think and being honest about my feelings and understanding of facts. I don't think any member of the media can say that.

Dear Kactuz,

We all have a problem with objectivity because people
in different walks of life may interpret the same
phenomenon in very different ways. In other words
people tend to see the world from a viewpoint of
subjectivity - an interpretation based on personal
values and experiences. Inevitably we're all guilty
of some measure of bias.

However, it is the role of journalists to try to
be as objective as possible. Their job is to strip
away misinformation and present us with verifiable
facts. Even if that means questioning and challenging
statements by the PM, Attorney-General, or any
other person. Mr Kurdi's version of him being on the
boat was verifiable - and therefore accepted by the
world's reputable media. I have no doubt that he was
on that boat.

Fox, "What are the odds (law of averages) that all of the media has lied?"

Make that enough of the media to carry the story, especially where the tabloids are concerned.

You are naive or it is not convenient for you to admit the obvious that is apparent to any critic of the media and spin. Here is a current example where local and international media grabbed a story and ran with it.

"Pregnant French tourist seeking father of child is a hoax
1st Sep 2015

A second video has just been posted on Natalie Amyot's YouTube account announcing her plight to find the father of her unborn child was simply a viral video to promote Holiday Mooloolaba.

Andy Sellar, who says he runs a social media company, says the viral video, which went around the world, was aimed to promote the beachside Sunshine Coast location."
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/pregnant-french-tourist-appeals-help-find-coast-da/2759274/

No-one would have been the wiser had not the entrepreneurial originator posted that second video declaring the original was a hoax.

Apart from that, anyone here who has worked at any management level in business or government will be aware that it is usual for the media to take what is given if it is packaged and presented half well. That works for and against organisations and individuals - as celebrities would be very quick to confirm.

But you should know that Fox, having pushed so much multicult and greens left spin on here. Nothing gets in the way of a good story as far as the leftists are concerned now does it?

otb,

Please wait.

I shall ignore you next.

cont'd ...

I would love to agree with you.

But then we would both be wrong.

Tony Tony Tony, you really are becoming a bit of a dill.

Spending a billion of our dollars on settling undesirable Lebanese in our midst will not earn you a single brownie point from your detractors, they will still hate you. Hell you could settle the entire Lebanese population in Oz, & it would not make them hate you any less.

However wasting our billion on these totally undeserving rabble will cost you votes of some who have previously supported you. My grand kids, & the rest of their generation, will curse your name for this, as they will pay an even greater price.

Time to grow up mate, unless it's just too late. If you are going to be hated, at least be hated for doing something sensible, for the good of the country

Foxy,
Kurdi senior is naturally devastated at the loss off his family, the deaths really occurred, just not in the way the media said they did and the photos aren't representative of the scene on the beach after the accident. You've got to understand that most of the people in that region have very limited intellectual capacity, the median IQ is about 80 and most people score lower than that, Mr Kurdi made up a stupid story because he's not very smart and no doubt he's anticipating being asked some pretty hard questions by his relatives, particularly his wife's family.
Grieving people say all sorts of things,you might recall the story of Ten Rillington Place?
Sorry, it's the first example which came to mind of a borderline retarded man placed under duress and making up an absurd cover story to explain the deaths of his family.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngIuzMCSv9I

He just decided he wanted to use the opportunity to get to another country no matter what the cost would be.

The cost to the obviously dispensable missus and kids that is. Hey, that's the risk of him getting what he wanted and for many people the world over, life is cheap. Especially of it is someone else's life. Their risk and his reward.

He wasn’t running from persecution.

He is a lying S.O.B too but that is a common trait of economic migrants, particularly those who pay people smugglers.

Regrading the media, it is much cheaper and par for the course for the journalism hacks who are so common these days to make and beat up stories. Not a new thing, remember the journalists who covered the Vietnam War from the bar of the Press Club in Canberra?

Some get caught out and here is a recent example, remembering that it was only the direct observation and reporting of their deceit by another media outlet that resulted in action,

<Journalists sacked over faked Morcombe reports ['Choppergate']

Channel Nine's director of news in Brisbane has resigned and three journalists have been sacked for faking reports about the search for Daniel Morcombe's remains.

On separate days, two reporters filed fake crosses from the station's helicopter, saying they were near Beerwah, over the site of the search for the remains of the murdered Queensland teenager.

In one incident, the chopper was actually hovering near the station's Mt Coot-tha studios and in the other, it remained on the Channel Nine helipad - and was filmed there by a rival network as the live cross went to air.

Earlier this week Channel Nine admitted the crosses had been faked, citing time restraints and poor weather.

Director of Queensland news Lee Anderson resigned after almost 25 years working for the network, while reporters Melissa Mallet and Cameron Price were sacked, as well as producer Aaron Wakeley.>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-25/reporters-sacked-over-fake-chopper-crosses/2856172

I think we need to explain to the bleeding hearts and anti Australian refugee advocates the nature of that confusing mix of sensations they may be experiencing at the moment.
You've seen a photograph depicting the figure of a child lying prone on a beach, an assemblage of bits and bytes recorded by a light sensing microchip.
What you're experiencing as you view this image isn't "empathy", it's imagination, that's not a dead child before you, it's a digital image, everything you attribute to it's millions of pixels is what we call "imagination".
Now if the image causes you to be upset or agitated because you imagine that certain things have taken place, that is to say you've invented a story in your head to go with the picture then that's not "empathy" either, that's what we call "hysteria".
When you experience emotions based on imaginary scenarios that's a hysterical reaction, when you share your hysteria with others close to you that's called "empathy" in this context.
See empathy only occurs when two or more people are in close proximity to one another, you can't empathise with a photograph, or a corpse for that matter.
Your empathy is actually with your peers, your family, your social caste and so forth, not with the subject of the photo or more broadly those you imagine to be suffering.
Empathy is a satisfying sensation for most people, it's one element of social cohesion and signalling such to others of your caste, creed or nation is almost instinctive empathic behaviour.
This behaviour is the root cause of the critique of the upper castes by the lower and subaltern castes, we might describe you as aloof from the consequences of your actions, elitist, snobbish, selfish or even oblivious.
Because in the end your "humanitarianism" is all about you, dear bleeding heart and the social cohesion of your castes, empathy is the glue which holds your world together but don't kid yourself that it extends much beyond your tax bracket.

This place can indeed resemble a cesspool sometimes.

Dear Kactuz,

You wrote;

“This Kurdi is scum”

Let me get this straight, you are now describing the father of the family who perished so tragically 'scum' on the basis of claims by our two resident nut jobs?

Good god woman, look at what they are peddling.

JOM has gone all Matrix on us;

“You've seen a photograph depicting the figure of a child lying prone on a beach, an assemblage of bits and bytes recorded by a light sensing microchip. What you're experiencing as you view this image isn't "empathy", it's imagination, that's not a dead child before you, it's a digital image, ... you've invented a story in your head to go with the picture then that's not "empathy" either, that's what we call "hysteria". “

OTB is off on his usual irrelevancies. By his reckoning media crossing the line (hardly proven) means Mr Kurdi must be thus branded. Next he will be attacking Daniel Morcombe's father for the actions of the three journalists.

I am totally at odds with the values you seem to hold, that's fine it is a free world, but just try and avoid lapping up every bit of conspiracy touting nonsense that is written here. Go do your own research.

Dear Kucutz,

Don't worry, I've gone and done it for you. Took me less than 5 minutes.

This is what Jay of Melbourne deliver as his gotcha moment;

“Bingo, found it on a Dutch site, in Dutch. http://webcdn.aa.com.tr/webdocs/625x424xc/content_new/983/aylan-kurdi_web-jpg20150904092745.jpg
It's the same kid, shoes with reddish-orange soles and dark uppers, other photos show him being carried to and from the position in which the propaganda stills and video were taken. This isn't the first time staged, if not outright fabricated material has been passed off as real or promoted without disclaimers”.

This is the account of the photographer who was one of the first on the scene and took the tragic photograph.

Quote;

“Demir, 29, has worked for Dogan News Agency, also known as DHA, since she was a teenager. Based in Bodrum, she responded to reports of activity at the beach and discovered that several bodies had washed up on shore. Once she grew close, "we saw that they were dead children's bodies," she said. She and her DHA colleagues found Aylan's body first. Soon after, a short distance down the beach, they came across the body of his brother Galip, 4.
"He was laying on the beach the same way. He also had his shirt, his shorts and shoes on. They had nothing -- no life vest, no arm floats, no life buoy to keep them floating on the water," Demir said. "This actually revealed how tragic that moment was."
End quote
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/03/world/dead-migrant-boy-beach-photographer-nilufer-demir/

So the body among the rocks was Aylan's brother Galip.
Jay of Melbourne twisted facts to push his toxic agenda. He literally used the bodies of these two victims in the service of his avowed racism. It worked, based on JOM's fabrication you called their father "scum".

The question is do you have enough conscience to retract it? I hope you do.

Our corporate (Zionist/Commie) media have controlled the prestitutes for 100yrs and our true history has been hidden from us. ALL THE LIES! Christians have been persecuted throughout history and is never stressed in our controlled media.

http://www.christianpersecution.info/u-s-state-dept-stops-christians-from-testifying/

http://www.christianpersecution.info/u-k-denies-refuge-to-christians-fleeing-islamic-state/

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/08/21/isis-destroys-ancient-syrian-monastery/#.VeFawUxZToA.facebook

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/mfenelon/isis-be-warned-persecution-only-strengthens-the-faith-of-christians (The Zionists creaed ISIS etc)

Globalism is an intro to Communism
"MUST WATCH" "The Obama Deception HQ" Full length version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuWCR86kM_w

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2010/03/4381/
A Review of Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals

Some good news is that the Hungarian government has found the bottle to protect their country from being used as a corridor to other European countries by sending troops to the their border.

Good for Hungary!

Steele,

There are 2 possibilities:
1. He was in the boat.
In this case, by his own account, he did nothing to save his 2 sons and wife. How can a child just slip away in an inflatable boat, unless it was fully inflated in rough seas with high tube walls? No, rubber boats with air compartments just don’t deflate immediately when punctured. I know. They slowly shrink and go low in the water and most have multiple compartments and still float. He didn’t say it capsized either. Evidently the man had no problem in swimming to shore, so the seas were not adverse.

They story sounds strange. He saves himself and all his family die. His only action / reaction: “oops, they slipped.” Great father this, great husband!

2. He was never in the boat.
In this case is he is forgiven for not saving them, but he is a dirty rotten liar, benefiting from the death of his son and family.

As I said, the man is scum.

Another thing... Where do these refugees get the money to pay for these trips across the med? You hear that some pay US$5000 or even 10000 each to get on an an overcrowded boat, in the hope of getting to Europe. Who gives them rafts? I doubt this is done for charity by the smugglers / human traffickers.

I mean, I don't even have 1000 dollars sitting around. Where do these people get this kind of money?

Dear Kacutz,

Believe me I expected nothing less from you but there was a slim possibility you might have separated yourself from the thoroughly reprehensible clique of posters here. I see that is not going to happen.

You are seeking any excuse to demonise “these people”. You do not want to feel any empathy rather you are striving for contempt. To that end you are, with a pathological fixation, determined to concoct whatever scenario fits your bitter and twisted mindset. You leap on every word, on every nuance, every little thing that seems untoward or out of place to shore up your world view. Even in the face of a man's overwhelming grief you exhibit a petulant agenda to dehumanise refugees.

You really do have it bad don't you.

I'm not sure why I'm taking the time to respond to your slandering of this poor man but for the record things can happen at sea that will sometimes test those with little understanding of its vagrancies.

I have lived, worked and sailed on the ocean most of my life. You most obviously have not. I have absolutely no difficulty in imaging an overloaded inflatable turning over in high seas and absolute confusion reigning. It takes very little time for a person to drown and trying to hold on to an upturned deflating craft, bucking and rolling beside you while locating and keeping hold of others would be extremely difficult.

Neither of us were there when the Kurdis family hit the water. For you to put the worst possible light on what occurred speaks far more about the kind of person you are rather than the father.

You did introduce the word scum didn't you.

From http://www.icv.org.au/index.php/latest-news/media-releases/382-icv-urges-pm-to-be-fair-and-transparent-in-refugee-intake :

"It is our concern that thousands of Syrians, who are desperate and fleeing persecution will be overlooked based on their adherence to Islam, which is not only discriminatory but also counterintuitive to the initial proposal to help the Syrian refugees."

12000 atheist refugees is the very best option, IMO, followed by a blend that recognizes the percentage of Muslims in Australia's population, followed by Christians only.

Why should Australia compromise itself any more than is reasonable? Fundamentalist Islam is what the fuss in the world is about and being non-discriminatory on giving refuge is is not smart on security grounds. How can we be we are distinguish extremists from moderates?

OTOH, I understand how Australian Muslims might feel, as they feel the discrimination is directed against them.

It's rock and hard place stuff.

I don't quite get the "counterintuitive" reference. Would some of our less rabid posters give their take on this?

Steele, nope, you're wrong unfortunately, this is how Galip Kurdi was allegedly found, the body of Ayman was definitely moved and posed for the cameras.
http://media-cdn.t24.com.tr/media/library/2015/09/galip-kurdi_857153008.jpg
Steele I spend hours checking these things before posting them, this is pretty much all I do in with my evenings apart from enjoying British cop shows and listening to obscure European Metal music.
The most likely explanation is that the other bodies were damaged or too disturbing in appearance to be useful for propaganda purposes and Ayman's wasn't.
The photos of other dead children from that voyage are quite gruesome, be warned.
http://hroarr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Syria-Drowned-Children-Charity-2015-02-795x578.jpg

Oh for the love of God please stop.

I have little issue with you making a complete and utter fool of yourself on this forum mate, but to be doing so with this tragedy is just sick and frankly beneath contempt.

Hours of research my arse!

It took me two minutes to find this photograph;

http://rojnama.wordpress.com/2015/09/03/1-555/#jp-carousel-9662

Please compare it to the one you posted originally.

http://webcdn.aa.com.tr/webdocs/625x424xc/content_new/983/aylan-kurdi_web-jpg20150904092745.jpg

This is a different child, unless you are now contending that part of this great conspiracy you have dreamed up had the officer and photographers actually taking the time to change the poor infant's tee shirt before planting the body up the beach.

Do I know for sure that this is child Aylan's brother? No, but I'm far more prepared to take the word of the photographer on the scene rather than some probably mislabelled image from some obscure site you have posted. What is plainly evident is that it is not Aylan.

Now give it up please because you are really pissing me off.

Steele, yes they quite clearly did change the infant's t-shirt after they moved him, probably so it matched the photos they'd been given by his distraught father which were taken just before the voyage.
http://data1.ibtimes.co.in/cache-img-484-0-photo/en/full/29315/1441314595_aylan-kurdi-playing-football-it-claimed-be-his-last-photograph.jpg
The hair is the same, the bodily proportions are the same, the shoes are the same, the shorts are the same and it's the same rescue worker at both scenes.
This isn't a big "conspiracy" it involves only a couple of people in the original publicity stunt, jeez don't get so upset, the clothes have to match in both photos otherwise the conspiracy nuts would be up in arms claiming trickery and the bleeding hearts wouldn't bleed quite so freely. Have you seen anyone declaring the photos to be fakes? Exactly, neither have I and the reason there's been no outcry is because the people who set up the photo shoot on the beach have some basic grasp of continuity on set. 'Hey his shirt's different! Get the father down here and see if he's still got the red one!"

Poor bubba steeleredux is peed off because he is not getting his own way. Since my run in with him, I would never again respond to him or address him directly. He strikes me as the type who, in a face to face discussion, would smack you in mouth if you dared to disagree with him. I don't now he tolerates we "reprehensible" people. He should literally pee off and leave us alone. I certainly will not be reading anything the ratbag says.

Steele as you see from my last post you can attach any meaning you want to those photos if you use your imagination, my point is that all interpretations of that digital image are subjective and we all use those interpretations to signal to others of our social caste or class. You're signalling empathy with your peers in the White middle castes and the bourgeoisie, I'm signalling to the White subaltern caste to which I belong and the White under caste below me.
You signal feigned sympathy for the drowned boy to show solidarity with people of your rank in society because the social cohesion of those castes is built on certain ideals which we all understand and which we don't need to go into any further at this points.
Social cohesion in the subaltern caste is dependant upon other social signals to generate empathy, again, in this discussion we don't need to go too deeply into what those cues are, needless to say they are often expressed in a coarse, uncouth fashion.
Your social signals have no currency in my caste and vice versa, it's like two different languages.

Dear SteeleRedux,

Thank You for your well reasoned and rational posts.
If it wasn't for posters like yourself I would have
left this forum a long time ago. I admire your
perseverance and tenacity. However, don't let the
vacuous get to you. They are not in your
league.

<Aylan Kurdi: Drowned boy’s father accused of being people smuggler in charge of boat that crashed

THE father of the three-year-old boy whose lifeless body on a Turkish beach shocked the world was allegedly a people smuggler and was driving the boat when it crashed, killing his son.

Network Ten this evening aired allegations that Aylan Kurdi’s father Abdullah was a people smuggler who captained the vessel which flipped off the Turkish coast.

An Iraqi woman on board the boat, who lost two of her children, made the allegations from Iraq today.

It was alleged they had paid $10,000 for the trip.

Zainab Abbas, via her Sydney based cousin Lara Tahseen, told 10 News the boy’s father was driving the boat.
“He was a smuggler, yes, he was the one driving the boat,’’ she told Network 10.

“He said; ‘don’t worry the captain of the boat, the driver, is going to bring his two kids and his wife.

“He was going crazy, like speed.”
The boat hit a wave at speed and flipped.

The young toddler’s body washed up on the beach.>

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/aylan-kurdi-drowned-boys-father-accused-of-being-people-smuggler-in-charge-of-boat-that-crashed/story-fnii5s3x-1227523270638

You just beat me with that revelation, that will certainly throw the cat amongst the pigeons if true.

Can't wait for the comments of the detractors.

I refuse to post any more links to photographs of dead children.

For those who feel the need to give JOM's comments any credence please go to the earlier one I posted of the carousel of images from that tragic day. There you will be able to view the bodies of the two bothers. If you too feel that, as JOM claims, the body proportions are the same and thus they are the same child, it will of course lead to the conclusion that the Crime Scene Investigator Command Sergeant Major Mehmet (not a 'rescue worker' as JOM had erroneously concluded through his painstaking 'hours of research') changed the child's garment at the scene to collude with the press.

If you do then your need to believe a conspiracy has occurred is going to outweigh any evidence anyone might put in front of you. That need must be driven by hatred.

For the record how am I sure that it is a crime scene investigator and not a rescue worker as JOM claimed? It is as simple as typing the words 'Olay Yeri Inceleme' from his vest into Google.

Here is a link for those interested.
http://www.kpl.pol.tr/Sayfalar/Oyi-Sb.aspx

Then hit the translate button.

In JOM's mind having the crime scene investigator standing over each body flags this as a set up.

The father's crime it seems allowing his young children to wear similar shorts and shoes. When my own were young there many occasions they were in similar clothes. What parent hasn't ever done the same?

Those who are touting this as a conspiracy are borderline certifiable.

Could same the same for anyone claiming to know I'm 'peed off' 'without reading anything I say'. I will admit that did bring a smile.

Dear Foxy,

Thank you. I would be happy to see this whole toxic thread tossed but I suppose it does shine a light where it needs it.

Dear Phillip S,

Let's wait and see shall we.

Steady on, an accusation has been made against Abdullah Kurdi but that statement, of course comes with a demand from the complainant.
Lies upon lies upon lies, every statement made by so called "refugees" must be taken with a grain of salt as it's been proven over and over again that "truth" has a different meaning in the east.

Steele, good use of imagination there, you're catching on.

Steele,

It is not contempt for "these people". It is a contempt for an ideology that brings so much violence, hate and misery to this world.

In my view adult Muslims are responsible for their actions and beliefs. They come to the West and they bring Mohammad and Allah in their hearts. They bring death and suffering with them and they want to inflict these on us.

Back to your hero..

From the article I linked to earlier..."Finally, he said, they decided to take a boat without the traffickers' help. On Wednesday, when he couldn't find his family on the beach, he initially thought they had run away, fearing they would be caught by Turkish police. So he went back to the southern Turkish city of Bodrum, where the family had set up a meeting point in the event that they were separated. When his wife and children didn't turn up, he said, he went to the hospital and learned the bitter truth.

Does that sound like "slipped away". Unlike you, I don't know all the facts, but the story doesn't add up. So, scum.

Tell me, Steele, what is your opinion of Islam and Mohammed? Do you think they have anything to do with this crisis?

JOM,

I'm not going to call you the 'emperor without any clothes' because there is nothing royal about you. Your 'meticulous research' claim was found to be absolute hogwash and laughable to boot. You are far more like the kid who just got dakked and now trying as hard as you can to deflect attention. Time to park the waffle mate.

But to make you feel a little better let me hand you little conspiracy question of my own.

Here is an excerpt from the article otb posted above;

Quote;

However, Ms Tahseen told The Daily Telegraph her cousin told her Mr Kurdi was definitely at the helm all the time.
Her cousin told her she was at the back of the boat with the two children who died, Haider, 9, and Zanab, 11, while her husband Ahmed Hadi was with their youngest daughter Rawan at the front when the boat flipped.peter duttonpet
“Zanab asked Abdullah Kurdi for life jackets. He gave them four but they were five. She didn’t wear a life jacket,” she said.
“He was the one driving the boat right from the start.”

End quote
http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/aylan-kurdi-drowned-boys-father-accused-of-being-people-smuggler-in-charge-of-boat-that-crashed/story-fnii5s3x-1227523270638

Better get in quick though, I'm sure it will be corrected soon.

Why are the words “peter duttonpet” included? Is it because the reporter is Peter Dutton's pet doing his bidding with some disinformation designed to take pressure off the government? What collusion is occuring between the immigration minister and the Murdoch press on this? Are they deliberately trying to discredit Kurdi?

Whatcha reckon JOM?

Dear Kactuz,

Thank you for sharing the real reason you are pillorying Mr Kurdi, it is your hatred of Muslims.

You ask,

“Steele, what is your opinion of Islam and Mohammed? Do you think they have anything to do with this crisis?”

It is the same as what I think of Christianity and Christ when I look at what the Christians did to the Jews during WW2.

I find a great many of the ardent supporters of both to be pretty distasteful.

Now people who cross steeleredux are "boderline certifiable". I am included because I said that he was "... peed off without reading anything I say". Well, I did read what he said, and among all the other garbage he vomited up, he whined, "Now give it up please because you are really pissing me off". And I decided he was pissed off? Duh! Not only does he not know what he is talking about, he can't remember what he talked about that triggered my comments. He is not just "borderline", he is full on ga ga.

Now, to top it off, he has received the kiss of death from that other pigeaded knowall, Foxy. What a lovely couple. Both too busy nagging and criticising other posters to know realise what insufferable idiots they are.

Charming as always ttbn.

You don't agree with reasonable people like Steele Redux and Foxy, so you resort to nasty name-calling and childish rants.
Just how old are you?

Yeah ttbn.
You're looking at it all wrong, what about the beautiful food the refugees are going to bring to our communities? The bourgeoisie are all of a flutter over the chance to expand their dining options upon the arrival of 12,000 expert chefs from the displaced foodie camps in Jordan and Lebanon.
Check your privilege ttbn and no it's not racist to assume that all Syrian refugees are competent chefs, and no don't be alarmed just because the cooking aromas coming from your refugee neighbour's house smell more like a meth lab, it'll all be delicious!
Just like back and think of the food! The beautiful food!

SteeleRedux, "What collusion is occuring between the immigration minister and the Murdoch press on this?"

So it's Murdoch, Murdoch, Murdoch?

The disgusting POS Abdullah Kurdi at the centre of this is now blaming Canada.

You should get your stories right.

It is a damned pity that Angela Merkel encouraged the opportunist economic migrants and their travel agents the criminals involved in people smuggling.

Yes Jay, that's the depth of their thinking.

I didn't know that there was a full moon, but Foxy's little helper, suseonline is out, barking that her idol Foxy and the out-of-control steeleredux are "reasonable" people!

I will certainly be ignoring this trio of nutty extremists in the future. I have a couple of Lefty brothers I can disagree with amicably, along with friends and acquaintances. There are some reasonable Lefties on OLO; but these 3 are are totally out of bounds and beyond the normal. There is no point in dealing with them. Best to leave them kicking and screaming on the floor in the darkened rooms of their existence

Dear ttbn,

Having hit a wall, the next logical step for you
is to try not to bang your head against it.

#RefugeeCrisis: What The Media Is Hiding, Help #SyrianRefugees Go Home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=114&v=pHFnvFbThDE
Stop the war, end the sanctions, support Assad, help the Iraqis exterminate ISIS and the refugees will return home.

JOM, it never occurred to me to wonder whether the Syrian refugees can cook or not, nor have I ever tasted Syrian food, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Good comeback ttbn, lucky you have those few KKK brothers on this forum who believe the rubbish you do.

Isn't it wonderful that Abbott has agreed to take all those thousands of Syrian refugees?
Why? Because he thinks he can please the majority of the electorate (most of the electorate aren't KKK worshipers), not because he should be doing the right thing as a fellow human being

Check the photos,

<SAUDI ARABIA HAS 100,000 AIR CONDITIONED TENTS THAT CAN HOUSE 3 MILLION PEOPLE SITTING EMPTY YET HAS TAKEN ZERO REFUGEES
While Europe takes the burden of the migrant crisis

by PAUL JOSEPH WATSON | SEPTEMBER 10, 2015

While European countries are being lectured about their failure to take in enough refugees, Saudi Arabia – which has taken in precisely zero migrants – has 100,000 air conditioned tents that can house over 3 million people sitting empty.

The sprawling network of high quality tents are located in the city of Mina, spreading across a 20 square km valley, and are only used for 5 days of the year by Hajj pilgrims. As the website Amusing Planet reports, “For the rest of the year, Mina remains pretty much deserted.”>

http://tinyurl.com/o6moopk

Banjo and Jay, thanks for common sense posts. Once again...this is not an issue of race as some still suggest. 'Entire christian communities right now are being wiped out by hatred and terror'. All in the name of ethnic cleansing!! They hate Westerners and especially hate those of any other religious belief...God this is a no brainer

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

The photo's you've shown of a veritably tent city in Saudi Arabia, that could easily house a substantial number of Syrian refugees, just lying vacant is amazing ? For the sake of pure humanity, Muslims, Christians, or whoever, surely a rich nation like the Saudi's could offer even brief succour to so many people notwithstanding their religious beliefs ?

Or does a strict Muslim nation like Saudi Arabia offer nothing to anyone, but Muslims ? Seemingly they won't even aid their brother Muslims ? What are the tenets of Islam ? Assist only 'some' Muslims and not others ? They establish a sort of grading system I guess ? Got me buggered ?

Another thing too ONTHEBEACH, all the 'floaters' I've had to deal with in my time, look quite different to the bodies of the young children shown here on the Forum ? They look like they've spent very little time immersed, in salt water, so typical of death by drowning ? Still we only have photographs don't we ?

Jodielie, I doubt all the people in Syria who have been bombed out of their houses and businesses, and are running for their lives, will care much about religions at this time.
No one has said we shouldn't care for the Christian refugees, just the same as the atheists and Muslims. They all need help.

They will just be looking to save their lives and that of their kids, and other countries need to help care for them all, despite their religions...just because they are fellow human beings.

O Sung Wu, you disappoint me when you suggest the photo of the drowned boys didn't show them to be drowned for long. Dead is dead....by drowning. How bad do you want them to look before you feel the West should intervene and assist the refugees?

I don't care what Saudi Arabia does or doesn't do re the refugees in their region. What goes around comes around.
As long as Australia does what it can, I am happy.

Hi there BANJO & JAY of MELBOURNE...

I've had another look at the links provided apropos the bodies of the youngsters purported to have drowned, whilst attempting to flee Syria ? It's indeed a heartbreaking vision to see young children dead as a result of this awful ISIS scourge.

I have no idea where the truth lies, however as I stated in an earlier thread, deaths I've dealt with concerning alleged drowning's as a consequence of immersions in salt water, don't 'seem' to have a similar appearance to that, which I've seen herein ? There appears little or no evidence of stomach distension, as a consequence of gulping for air whilst in the throes of drowning ? Typically, much sea water is ingested into the lungs and stomach cavity, whilst fighting for breath, resulting in stomach detritus forming in an around the mouth and nasal opening.

As it often happens where the water (sea or fresh) displaces that which is in one's stomach it's expelled, emerging through the mouth and nasal passages leaving, a clearly seen acidic residual in and around that area. I'm a retired detective, not a forensic pathologists, so much of what I aver, can be easily questioned and dismissed ? All I'm saying, given we only have partial views of the bodies, the images I've seen, there's no apparent visual signs of drowning by immersion, is all ?

O Sung wu,
I'm not disputing the authenticity of the photos, I'm disputing the interpretation attached to them by the media and pointing out that most refugees are not authentic, Abbott and Shorten have just dragged us into another war, this propaganda campaign is no coincidence.
You asked about the tent city in Saudi and why the gulf states refuse to take any refugees? In the Syrian girl video I posted earlier that's explained, the Arab ruling classes have stated up front that they don't want people from other ethnic groups settling in their countries because they are too different to the native populations and they fear that it will cause problems in the long term.
Now poor, second tier European states like Hungary, Serbia and Greece are being forced to deploy troops and build border fences because the U.K, Germany, Sweden and Denmark are run by people like Foxy and Steele.

Just about everything we see in the corporate Commie propaganda machine is a hoax .

Austrian intelligence says US organizations are funding immigration into Europe
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=34068

ISIS Collaborator John McCain Displays Photo of Dead Syrian Boy on Senate Floor
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=34213

Pulling Our Heart Strings to Bring Us Down: How the Enemy Within Uses Our Empathy Against Us
From: theoccidentalobserver.net
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=34204

Obama’s Jewish War On Syria
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=827
• Brother Nathanael (exJew)

8,000 people killed in eastern Ukraine - Ukrainian refugees do not matter because they are White
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=34236

I for one think our government is being over generous with the number of refugees to be taken in.

However I am pleased to see that they will preference non muslim minorities, especially women, children and families.

The Sunni and Shia muslims have one side or the other to get support and the non muslims have certainly been selected for attention by ISIS. How many of the non muslim women/girls were made to become sex slaves and/or wives of Isis troops? There is little doubt that the non muslims have born the brunt of persecution by Isis and that they need rescuing

We certainly do not want any of those young men that are now forcing their way across Europe and causing mayhem.

Commendable sentiments Banjo but do we really need a new generation of traumatised,fatherless Middle Eastern youth on our hands? These kids are going to grow up eventually and the biggest risk factor for young people and crime, drugs, teen pregnancy etc is a broken home.
We also know exactly what's going to happen to intact, two parent families from Third World countries when they are exposed to liberalism, Feminism and the Hollywood trash culture.
We know all these things from experience, we saw the Sudanese and Somalis arrive in large numbers in the late 1990's, saw their respectful, well dressed kids morph quickly into the bleary eyed, shuffling zombies we now see hanging around the city all day picking fights, dealing drugs and harassing passers by.
Forced Multiculturalism is also a big problem because it destroys trust between groups but it has a far worse effect on in group trust as the dominant trash culture creates inequalities, fosters jealousy and leads to elitism in ethnic groups.

Steele, So I am a “hater”… Oh dear, I am so worried. I may even open a window and jump out. It is a long meter to the ground below, and accidents happen, you know. I could hold on to the sill, but maybe it out just slip out of my hands.

Anyway, save cute words like hater, racists, islamophobe, kkk, etc for those who have guilty consciences. Also, never apply those same words to people that actually consider themselves better (supremacists, the ‘best of peoples’) than us common infidels (you know, those ‘lower than animals’).

So it appears that your hero, Kurdi, was the pilot. So not only did he kill his family but others also – not to mention taking money to do this evil.

But all this is never the fault of Muslims…. Right?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/frustrated-migrants-blame-us-for-their-predicament/ar-AAeboFI?li=AAa0dzB
It is America’s fault, and the West, and anybody and everything except their religion. I don’t see how the jews (Zionists) get a pass on this… it is not fair! (Another funny thing in article: hundreds of words about American actions and not a single ‘obama’)

Yes, it is a sad day when people like me and others require others (ie, Muslims) to be responsible for their beliefs and actions. Isn’t it outrageous that we apply the same moral standards to them that we mandate for ourselves? How dare we do this? How can we expect tolerance and peace from them -- Don't we know their culture and values are different, but just as good, maybe better. How can we think that Islam (“a complete way of life”) guided by the perfect quran has anything to do with the troubles of Muslims everywhere? Maybe they and you are right! We is sooooo bad!

As I have always said, for 10 plus years here at OLO, any country that takes in Muslims is asking for trouble, pain and sorrow. Remember, Muslims are put on earth “to kill and be killed”. How nice for us.

I said years ago that it would get worse. Eurika – I am a prophet!

Jom,
I know little of the Sundanese and somarlie refugees, except I was told there was trouble in Melbourne. You Mexicans kept that pretty well to yourselves and I think you had that female police commissioner around that time.

The first wave of Lebanese refugees were mainly non muslims and they settled in pretty good and have been productive citizens in the main. It is quite a different story with the muslim refugees. The muslim Lebs have been nothing but trouble. It is the same with later generations as well.

I would be quite happy to just accept our annual quota but I can see the government yielding to pressure. I trust in a better result with an influx of non muslims.

Latest figures on the great success of "refugee" intake:

• 85% of them still on welfare after 5 years

• 9% only of Afghans have jobs

• 94% of all receive welfare

•34% of sri lankans from camps have jobs

Scott Morrison described low-levels of employment,
welfare dependency, lower income levels and very
poor English skills as a toxic cocktail that
leads to enclaving and serious inter-generational
social problems with re-settlement of refugees.

The settlement outcomes for refugees improve over
time. A report put out by the Department of
Immigration and Citizenship into the settlement of
refugees in more than a decade found that
there were difficulties, especially in the early
years in securing stable employment. Many of the
unemployed had very poor English skills.

The statistics for skilled migrant intake and family
migrant intake were more positive with 84 per cent of
skilled migrants working and a little over 50 per cent
of family migrants employed.

The report also did find positive outcomes for
humanitarian entrants. With almost a quarter completing
a trade or university qualification within five years of
arriving.

The government is trying to improve conditions. This
however also requires understanding of the fact that the
early years after arrival in a new country call for the
greatest adjustment not only for the migrant, but also
for the local people who interact with the migrant.
Much has been written on the humourous exposure of thes
problem. The literature on this topic has been growing
rapidly. And as we have done in the past - most fair-minded
and decent Australians will make the needed adjustment.
As will the migrants with our help.

ttbn, "Latest figures on the great success of "refugee" intake:

• 85% of them still on welfare after 5 years
..
• 94% of all receive welfare"

Those are very poor outcomes by any reasonable taxpayer's measure.

Doubtless much of that is because they hang around major metropolitan cities, esp Sydney but Melbourne as well.

Notwithstanding that, there are always plenty of unskilled and semi-skilled jobs that do not require much English.

There is an imported Asian team of tile layers working on a multiple dwelling site near me. They are directed by a local tiling sub-contractor. Few of them speak anything but the most rudimentary English.

If people want work it will soon find them.

For the benefit of SteeleRedux and Fox,

<Syrian toddler Aylan's father drove capsized boat, other passengers say

The father of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi was working with smugglers and driving the flimsy boat that capsized trying to reach Greece, other passengers on board said, in an account that disputes the version he gave last week.

Ahmed Hadi Jawwad and his wife, Iraqis who lost their 11-year-old daughter and 9-year-old son in the crossing, told Reuters that Abdullah Kurdi panicked and accelerated when a wave hit the boat, raising questions about his claim that somebody else was driving the boat.

A third passenger confirmed their version of events, which Reuters could not independently verify.

"The story that (Aylan's father) told is untrue. I don't know what made him lie, maybe fear," Jawwad said in Baghdad at his in-laws' house on Friday. "He was the driver from the very beginning until the boat sank."

He said Kurdi swam to them and begged them to cover up his true role in the incident. His wife confirmed the details.

Jawwad said his point of contact with the smugglers was called Abu Hussein. "Abu Hussein told me that he (Kurdi) was the one who organized this trip," he said...>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/11/us-europe-migrants-turkey-iraq-idUSKCN0RB2BE20150911

Hi there JAY OF MELBOURNE...

Thank you for your response and some of the excellent links you kindly furnished us all.

The photo of the young three year old toddler still concern me ? So I'm going to stick my stupid head out once more for another good kicking ?

As I opined in my previous piece, the usual characteristics of drowning were absent from what I saw of this poor little soul ? I again state, I'm N O T a forensic pathologist, and all that I saw was the single image (that we all viewed) of that poor little fellow ? But I've dealt with drowning's and attended the autopsy's associated with those drowning's.

As I stated earlier on, there was no (seen) residual from the mouth or the nasal cavity (hemorrhagic edema). However, if a victim has been smothered, quite an easy proposition on a three year old, asphyxia can easily occur. This small child could well have been murdered, unlikely I hear you say ? It would have to go to motive wouldn't it ? What would be the benefit to anyone, to have this small infant (seemingly), appeared to have drowned ? And we don't have the benefit of a 'timeline' either ?

In drowning's, the body submerges, and then ascends to the surface again, as bodily gases expend ? As the infant was carried away by the security officer, his legs appeared to be slightly bent ? Still, we don't have the benefit of a 'timeline' unfortunately ? Only the father can advise the approximate time when his vessel capsized, and the approximate time the infant was in the water ?

Would the Turkish authorities have conducted an autopsy ? Certainly, here and in most other developed countries a body found without any explanation as to cause of death, would most certainly provoke a serious police investigation together with an autopsy for the Coroner ? ANY unexplained death, there's always a presumption of foul play.

Dear Kactuz,

That was actually very brave of you. To admit to having no conscience is no small thing.

I suppose the anonymity of this forum does more easily allow such a confession but still it is impressive nonetheless.

“Psychopaths rarely feel guilt regarding any of their behaviors, no matter how much they hurt others.”

A pathological lack of empathy might seem to be an affliction too great to lead a normal life but that is not the case. You will find the following talk by James Fallon insightful. He is a neuroscientist who had been studying the brains of psychopathic killers. It turned out that after having his own brain scanned he found almost identical damage to those he had been examining. It completely threw him but confirmation from his wife, his family, and his colleagues, plus a deep look at his genetics now has him accepting who he is.
http://youtu.be/SJkANzD_ck0?t=9m53s

You spoke of two of your three children questioning your own mental health which seems to fit James' narrative.

Your affliction is not in the same category as JOM's. Holocaust deniers like him are not deemed to be universally psychopathic though there might be a case to deem them universally pathetic.

My thanks for being so forthright, I feel it has given me a deeper understanding of where you are coming from. All the best.

Dear o sung wu,

I let the first one slide but not this. We all know the motive, it's the same one that has been shown by so many others – discredit Kurdi so diminish the sympathy for these poor unfortunates who are fleeing the war in Syria, but I would have thought this line of questioning was beneath you.

The answers are easily found and the timeline is pretty clear, the drownings occurred near shore and at night. The bodies began washing up in the morning.

But these facts are of little interest to you otherwise you would have discovered them yourself. Instead you flag some highly unlikely, frankly preposterous scenario which has the children possibly being smothered instead of drowning.

I have pulled people from the water who were unconscious and within seconds of drowning without hemorrhagic edema residue presenting anywhere externally. However I have also seen people who have been resuscitated and there it is quite evident. The main factor is the compression of the chest which didn't happen in this case.

You are correct in one thing though, you are not a forensic scientist. Neither am I but even the most rudimentary research would have informed you that rigour mortis is far less evident in youngsters and infants due to their limited muscle mass.

Might be time to park discussing these kids.

Cont..

As a clearance diver for the Navy my father was often called to do some pretty gruesome work. One day that entailed retrieving the body of the pilot of a downed cargo plane in Botany Bay. It had been down there nearly two weeks, however the water was warm and the wreck was at a relatively shallow depth so my father threw on a helmet harnessed under his arms. There was little difficulty entering the wreck and he made his way into the cockpit. He unbuckled the unfortunate pilot's belt then made the fatal mistake of grabbing the body around the torso to drag it free. At that point a great bubble of two week old stomach gases were released and made their way straight up into my father's mask. According to him the stench was unbearable and he immediately threw up in his mask. He had to strip it from his head and wash it out while still in the cockpit. He still retrieved the body though. It wasn't the most pleasant days work.

The second is about my grandfather. He was for many years the only copper in a small country town in the Western districts. After some massive floods in the area he was informed of a body that had been found by a farmer downstream of the town. He arrived late that night but couldn't find the farmer so he grabbed a wheelbarrow and headed down to retrieve it alone. Once the body was loaded he headed back across a large paddock with just a lantern guiding him. He hit a bump and he swore the body sat bolt upright and let out a massive groan before slumping back down. He froze for a full minute before composing himself enough to continue. Once again it was escaping gases.

The joys of being one up on the job.

Cont..

So o sung wu I get that in your previous job death and the circumstances surrounding it would have held a lot of interest. From the number of cop and forensic shows on TV it does the same for a large chunk of the population.

There are times when speculation can be a great diversion, it is just under these circumstances it is untoward and unseemly.

STEELEREDUX...

Again I feel immensely humbled by your extraordinary depth of knowledge. I find your measure is absolutely unequalled and totally breathtaking !

Moreover, you've established you know precisely nothing of sudden death protocols recognised in forensic science, specifically those dealing with death by drowning. The infant's legs we not mentioned as a sign of rigor, merely signs of distension of ankles and hands symptomatic of suffocation ? I refer you to; Vernon J GEBERTH'S 'Homicide Investigation' 4th ed., or perhaps you could try; Spitz & Fisher's 'Medicolegal Investigation of Death' 3rd ed. or DiMario Snr. & DiMario's 'Forensic Pathology' 2nd ed. or a number of other texts I could cite herein. Whether you can tease out anything useful from the above texts, specifically dealing with suffocation per se, I don't know ?

Why do you allow your arrogance and hubris to overtake your arguments ? Attacking others for daring to express an opinion that you find contrary to yours ? Or alluding to specific remarks and views that have been expressed by KACTUZ as an example, as being psychopathic ? Just as well this Forum is shrouded in anonymity otherwise you'd be glancing over your shoulder for some time into the future ?

I'm beginning to think you suffer from a 'God' complex too STEELEREDUX ?

Is it your wish henceforth, that all of us subordinate beings who regularly contribute to this Forum must hereinafter, defer and embrace everything and anything you say as total sacrosanctity ?

Is it your further wish to assemble legions of loyal followers who'll sit patiently at your feet, and listen for those rare gems of knowledge that you may choose to share with your faithful disciples ?

I again repeat ad nauseam, you're NOT the moderator, you're not the guardian of unfettered free speech, nor are you as important as you think you are !

It would seem many on this Forum now have your measure, they treat most of what you say with a great deal of mockery and distain, with the realization you're simply a boastful, pompous, know all !

Dear o sung wu,

I'm rather disappointed, its about this time in our exchanges that you claim I am suffering from a 'narcissistic personality' or I am 'the most narcissistic person you know'. Of course I am never allowed to feel completely special because you have rolled exactly the same labels out for paul1405 and a bunch of others on this forum.

We all seem to have one thing in common, we disagree with you.

Really mate, if you want to have a forum where everyone is going to be lock step with your views then Andrew Bolt's blog is the go. People like me have their comments kicked quick smart.

What you are attempting to do by suggesting these poor children might have met their fate through being wilfully smothered is bring suspicion down on a grieving father. It is driven by your antipathy toward Muslims and it is reprehensible. Even Jay of Melbourne backed away from your remarks and that takes some doing.

And this piece of wankery takes the cake;

“As I stated earlier on, there was no (seen) residual from the mouth or the nasal cavity (hemorrhagic edema).”

In none of the photographs can you even see the poor lad's mouth or nasal openings but you concluded murder was likely.

What a nasty hateful game you are playing my friend and yes you should be ashamed of it.

STEELEREDUX...

Interestingly, though I don't share too many issues with PAUL1405, we can agree to disagree. Unlike you my friend, a substantiated 'know all' !

You assert JAY OF MELBOURNE 'backed away' from my commentary ? Probably because he disagrees with me, as is his right.

You (again) assert (in part) '...my antipathy towards Muslims at...' No, I harbour no particular animosity, hostility or animus towards Muslims at all - I simply DON'T trust them ! I have enormous suspicion, or scepticism towards Muslims, both for their (sic) 'religion' and their ultimate aims towards the West in toto !

In fact in my view, they're more of a political or militant organisation, than a bona fide religion ? Their agenda is to exterminate all infidels and convert the world into Sharia State, with a few crazy Imams dictating life or death over the masses ! And you support them you ignoramus !

My vision of the infant in question was sufficiently clear, to view any remaining detritus (or the absence thereof), emanating from his mouth or nasal cavities. His facial colour was sufficiently indistinct as to fraught any attempt to see whether his face was congested, the effects of asphyxia occasioned through smothering. Merely a thought, and all part of the res gestae ? A theory is all ?

Still one mustn't dare have an opinion, if contrary to those held by his eminence, the pretentious luminary, and Grand Mufti, STEELEREDUX the wisest fool in Christendom, opps sorry, Mecca !

Finally, my essential caveat to that, which has aroused my initial suspicions in this matter, are contained in my two previous piece(s) both written on; 12Sept last, and both contained in the last paragraph. Had you managed to read them, you would've seen it.

A question if I may ? Is there any topic within heaven or earth that you don't have a claim to know everything ? Perhaps there's a couple :- Humility and modesty ? Neither are part of your vocabulary, are they my little man !

The Arab Press has a few strong words about the problems of the Arab world in general and the current crisis:

"We too could be like them and our countries could be like their countries, which do not persecute the citizens and do open their arms to the victims of natural and political disasters. Yes, we could be like them if we thoroughly examined our barbaric political regime, our backwards social order, our obsolete curricula, our media that operates without professional norms, and our religious establishment that interprets the texts in a barbaric fashion, inciting to hatred and to abuse of the other, even members of the Islamic faith! This situation clearly mandates a velvet revolution that the educated [sector] must launch." (Adnan Hussein, Iraq)
https://reason.com/archives/2015/09/12/the-arab-press-reacts-to-the-european-re

Note the harsh words about a barbaric text used to incite hatred of others. That is what these people are bringing to the West.

But nothing will change. This is one more silent voice of reason within the Muslim world, but it will make no difference. There will be no reform or revolution, just more hate and violence done in the name of Allah according to the example of Mohammed.

Dear o sung wu,

No this was not res gestae. You examined a 'piece of evidence', made much of your credentials to be able to past judgement (albeit with a small qualification) and proceeded to inform us of your conclusion that suffocation was a distinct possibility.

You claimed;

“My vision of the infant in question was sufficiently clear, to view any remaining detritus (or the absence thereof), emanating from his mouth or nasal cavities.”

No it patently was not and for you to continue claiming such is an indictment in itself.

The rest of your post is the usual clap trap you retreat to when your are cornered.

Time to put this to rest mate.

As to attacking Kactuz what I did was take two direct admissions from him and put the case he was a psychopath. Do I think he really is psychopathic? No. But it was an exercise illustrating that he took far less evidence to conclude Mr Kurdi was 'Scum' and for you to conclude he could possibly be a murderer.

!0,000 fake Syrian passports were seized in one raid in Germany in august, the person apprehended with the forged documents was a "refugee"under investigation for ties to Islamic state.
http://newobserveronline.com/isis-terrorist-arrested-in-stuttgart-refugee-center-boxes-of-fake-syrian-passports-intercepted/
A joint German-Bulgarian operation also seized another 10,000 fake Syrian identity cards which had originated in Turkey:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/fluechtlinge-der-handel-mit-syrischen-paessen-blueht/12290592.html

STEELEREDUX...

I have no answer for you. It would seem if anyone dare publish an opinion that you dislike you arbitrarily smother any and all commentary associated with that opinion. I say I viewed sufficient portions of that infants face, to form an opinion - and you say I didn't ? You now seek to lecture me on the meaning of res gestae, a basic doctrine of required learning, quite early in one's recruit training ?

Often described to recruits for a better understanding, as 'the yolk surrounded by the egg white'. Or the official (examinable) definition '...a fact may be relevant to a matter in issue because it throws light on it by reason of either time, place or circumstance, because it's part of the doctrine of res gestae...'. If this definition is insufficient for you, then I can't help you.

You find it really infuriating don't you when others herein comment on your overt hubristic arrogance, the like of which I've yet to encounter ever ! I used to find your contumelious behaviour, quite amusing, you were a figure of derision and fun, as such I enjoyed rattling your cage ?

But now STEELEREDUX, I've reviewed that opinion appreciable ? For now I strongly believe you're manifestly unwell, a classic McNaghten's Rule candidate. You clearly suffer from some 'delusion of grandeur' or something. You can't allow anyone to contradict ANYTHING you say, as you interpret it as challenging the lofty opinion you have of yourself.

To be honest I'd never wish to spend a night under your roof, even for a single night. A simple disagreement could lead, to who knows what ? You're one very very sick puppy STEELEREDUX ! Of that I have no doubt.

Dear o sung wu,

Lol.

Now that's better, a few tried and true o sung wu-isms to warm the heart.

I must say though as a recruit you must have been rather inattentive.

To assert the slightest of glimpses of a drowned victim's face in a 72DPI internet image by a retired detective sitting in his lounge room over half the world away constitutes res gestae is bonkers. There is nothing immediate about it. This is not the 'yolk' nor the 'egg white', it's not the shell nor even the chicken, it's not the hen house nor the farmyard nor even the state and any judge would have it tossed immediately.

I have no problem with accepting other's opinions. However yours was given with a rather unseemly agenda attached. It was that to which I took exception.

However I do feel your banter has been of service on many occasions which is why I value it. The number of unseemly and obnoxious threads we have managed to stupefy into submission via our exchanges does the both of us great credit so thank you.

Unfortunately STEELEREDUX, it seems you're struggling with the evidentiary concept of Res gestae', consequently you're now totally confused.

In a further conciliatory effort to help you, and to make some allowance for your illness, perhaps a simple 'one liner' from 'Osborn's Law Lexicon 7th ed. may be of some assistance ?

'...all facts so connected with a 'fact in issue' (sometimes assisting with establishing a 'criminal proof') as to introduce it explaining its nature...'

I understand you regret pursuing this particular line, perhaps you should've confined your argument to your original assertion '...the infant's face couldn't seen...' ?

As an aside but remaining on topic, I just can't understand how can you possible reconcile within your own conscience, the terrible atrocities committed by your Islamic State (ISIS) brethren, occasioned against the more moderate Muslims and other minorities now fleeing Syria ?

Yet, notwithstanding you're safely and pleasantly ensconced here, you have the temerity to defend and strenuously argue the Islamic position for further mass immigration into Australia ! I do accept, as a committed Muslim you're bound to prosecute a strong case, in order to advance the Islamic State cause, whether here or anywhere else.

But don't you also have a patriotic duty (notwithstanding your fervent Islamic ideals) as well, to defend Australia's position ? Her culture, her citizens, in fact everything this great country has made available to you and yours ?

Or doesn't that count anymore. Now you're just another faceless (though vocal) individual, completely comfortable and relaxed with the 'entitlement languor' as a consequence of receiving regular payment(s) from the hapless taxpayer ? Just as long as CentreLink keeps paying your interminable sickness benefits, that's all that matters in the long run, eh STEELEREDUX ? Australia and the Australian taxpayer can go to hell !

Dear o sung wu,

You started out so well my friend then quickly descended into more childish foot-stamping which only serves to belittle what had gone before.

Let's deal with the petulance first. Why do you think inferring that I am Muslim when I am obviously not is going to bother me? I realise that for you it is a deep insult but for me it is just like being called a Pom, or a Yank, or indeed a Jew. No biggie at all. But persist if you must.

I will say though it is a deep hatred of the 'other' that spurs the actions of IS and any reasonable observer of the exchanges between us (if they are not already asleep) could not help but recognise just such a hatred being constantly and loudly exhibited by yourself. It is you and your ilk who threaten our great multicultural nation.

What is really rich though is you talking about Centrelink and the poor old Australian tax payer. This from a bloke who as a retired NSW policeman is on one of the most generous pension schemes in Australia, second only to our politicians. I have spent most of my working life making my own living in small business. Your paypacket came via the poor old taxpayer and so does your pension now. Best dial that one back.

Cont...

Cont...

Right, on with the small part of your post that wasn't immature nonsense. Well it was still nonsense but less cringe-worthy shall we say.

I will endevour to take my time with this as it is rather evident you are struggling with the concept.

Let's start by quoting more fully from Osborn;

“Res gestae. The facts surrounding or accompanying a transcation which is the subject of legal proceedings; or, all the facts so connected with a fact in issue as to introduce it, explain its nature, or form in connection with it one continuous transaction.”

The part you have failed to grasp is “one continuous transaction”. I will admit Osborn has worded it rather clumsily but what he is saying is to be admissible evidence or hearsay must be contemporaneous to the event.

If you take the time to read R. v Bedington it may serve to enlighten you. The court in that case held that the statements by an unfortunate woman who rushed into the street after having her throat cut but able to name the perpetrator before dying were inadmissible as they were given after the event. Res gestae sought to rectify that injustice by allowing to be included into evidence even hearsay as long as it was given spontaneously and was contemporaneous to the event.

I repeat “To assert the slightest of glimpses of a drowned victim's face in a 72DPI internet image by a retired detective sitting in his lounge room over half the world away constitutes res gestae is bonkers.” There was nothing spontaneous or contemporaneous about your claim this could be murder. It was delivered days after and a world away from the event but worse than that it sprang from an anti-Muslim thread and your inner bile.

I hope this has given you greater understanding re res gestae.

This is what is happening to Greece thanks to Steele's and other regressives ideology

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=890412067709410&fref=nf

suddenly the Australian press don't refer to this child molestor as a refugee. Hmm!

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/man-burns-himself-at-yongah-hill-detention-centre/story-fnhocxo3-1227529694238

You're waffling again with your nebulous attempts to articulate this simplest of doctrines. Have a glance at Lord Tomlin CJ ratio in the matter Homes v Newman [1931] 2 Ch. 112, at 120 '...the doctrine provides a respectable legal cloak for a variety of cases to which no formula of precision can be applied...'

what he's saying STEELEREDUX, whereas it concerns a collection of facts which are regarded as relevant because of their close connection by reason of contemporaneity with the 'facts in issue' ! Not dissimilar to circumstantial evidence.

(i) At first impression; was the infants pallor and overall partially observed countenance, consistent with death by immersion in sea water, drowning ? And I agree, only the left quadrant of his face is at all visible. An observation I've already admitted earlier ?

(ii) check for the existence, or otherwise, of any residual detritus or other unexplained erythema in and about the mouth and nose ?

and;

(iii) Look for any evidence of distension present, in the infant's hands or feet.

Even the most callow detective will appraise the entire scene, before he rushes in to examine any asymmetrical specifics.

The simplest of doctrines to understand, even for a 'subjugated small businessman' like you STEELEREDUX. I thoroughly enjoy arguing issues of evidentiary relevancy and germaneness with you ! Accordingly, please continue.

So you reckon '...I and my ilk threaten our great 'multicultural' nation...' considered a repugnant term by many ! I can only hope so ! Many people that I know and know off, irrespective of their political affiliations, either loathe or absolutely fear, this detested multiculturalism !

It's not our government's structured immigration programmes. Rather it's the 'left's' proclivity for allowing unfettered access to our country, by these illegal Islamic boat people, together with the Islamic criminal gangs ! Moreover it's worrying why people like you, are so keen to see the status quo remain ! Why ?

Now for my pension. After over 32 years of unblemished service, am I not entitled to a pension, a pension that I was mandated to make regularly contributions ?

Dear o sung wu,

I am indeed a little surprised at your apparent inability to grasp the essence of the concept, especially given your time involved with the law.

This is the context you first used the word on this thread;

“Merely a thought, and all part of the res gestae ? A theory is all ?”

I have assumed given your background you would have had a good grasp of the term and thus were asserting that it was your thought and theory that should be part of the mix. After all res gestae is primarily focussed on evidence that may otherwise be disallowed because of its nature eg hearsay.

I have quite correctly shown that the thoughts and theories of a retired policeman looking at an indistinct set of images on a computer half a world away should not be considered part of the res gestae.

If that was indeed your position then it is obviously untenable.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt perhaps you meant the direct physical evidence itself such as 'detritis' or lack thereof around the mouth or 'distension' or lack thereof of the wrists and joints. Yet as 'direct physical evidence' there is no need to evoke res gestae remembering the term is primarily concerned with admissibility of spontaneous and contemporaneous hearsay evidence.

I think you meant the former but I will leave it up to you to enlighten us.

There's a saying STEELEREDUX, the correct quotation escapes me, but in essence it goes something like this; - actions that result in 'unintended consequences' ? I believe it's entirely relevant to you ?

You see, without realising, you've done me a good service over the preceding 18 - 24 months ? I fear without the verve and energy you've introduced into many of your arguments, or other disputes you'd wished to thoroughly depose ('unintended') my own fine fettle may've contracted even further than others, more qualified had diagnosed and anticipated ? For this I must thank you.

Res gestae, direct evidence, it would seem we'll forever dance around the interpretation, definition, relevance, admissibility and weight, etc., ad infinitum ? So, shall we now agree for expediency sake, that you accept, the possibility that my initial observations 'may' suggest it could be an instance of infanticide, and not one of accidental drowning by involuntary immersion in sea water ?

I've purposely NOT raised any 'evidence of character' concerning the father. Yet to be proven, and certainly not relevant. Yet some on this Forum have provided 'links' to the questionable conduct & behaviour of the infant's father.

After all, isn't it incumbent that we all should retain an open mind ? It seems the father of this unfortunate infant certainly has some questions to answer ? Furthermore I've not bothered to follow his account of the events, or the accounts of witnesses who (apparently) were present in the vessel in question.

I've based my reservations, entirely on the partial image of the infant, nothing else.

Or is it your wish we continue to tease out both the definition and relevance of res geatae ? Including the entire Gestae family, until one of us ultimately topples over with an acute myocardial infarction ? I'm completely comfortable either way STEELEREDUX, for I (again), draw your attention to my second paragraph herein.

Dear o sung wu,

I am sincerely thankful you have found our exchanges invigorating and that they have served in some small measure to stave off what appears to be a less than rosy prognosis. I have had a couple of those delivered to me through my lifetime and they are not pleasant. I do hope you continue to defy expectations.

You wrote;

“So, shall we now agree for expediency sake, that you accept, the possibility that my initial observations 'may' suggest it could be an instance of infanticide, and not one of accidental drowning by involuntary immersion in sea water ?”

I'm afraid I'm sticking to my guns on this one my friend. I do not accept them at all. There are plenty of politicians who are changing their firmly held beliefs for the sake of expediency at the moment and I've got a sneaking suspicion you would be disappointed if I did the same.

Cont...

cont...

You may well say we should retain an open mind but the efforts of those on this thread and through much of the Murdoch press has been to denigrate and cast suspicion on the father. You were just part of that group. In another setting your claim “I've purposely NOT raised any 'evidence of character' concerning the father.” might have been allowed to remain unchallenged but in this context it can not.

Yet all that has been produced is nothing but slander and innuendo, like the claim he was 'just looking for a good dentist'. View the last Media Watch episode for the true story.
http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/media-watch/FA1435H033S00

What I will concede is that the mind of a former detective will work differently to mine, the propensity to remain suspicious of motive and events must of course have been ingrained over 32 years. Therefore while still contending you have little or no basis to be flagging this as a murder your frame of reference makes it more likely that would occur. It must be said though your antipathy towards Muslims must also be acknowledged as part of that frame.

As to res gestae if you have nothing further to add then I'm happy to leave it there. I have little doubt we will find other matters that will serve to sustain your 'fine fettle' in other threads.

STEELEREDUX...

Apropos 'res gestae' ? I'm bound to admit that I've made an elemental and foolish error, in persistently and resolutely arguing over it's use, within the evidentiary component of the criminal law ? And I'm at a loss as to why ? My 'muddled' thinking was like a needle implacable stuck fast in the groove of an old gramophone record, as such I've managed to make a thorough fool of myself altogether ?

A fundamental but quite stupid error, with enormous consequences, that must surely go to my future professional credibility as a former detective sergeant of police ? Accordingly, I offer you STEELEREDUX, my profound (and PUBLIC) apology, acknowledging that you were quite correct with your summation of the doctrine. And I was utterly WRONG !

Concerning my other observations, I don't resile for a nanosecond some of my other remarks, and you're quite correct (again it would appear!) coppers are taught to harbour suspicions on anything that appears irregular, or unexplainable ? I'm again sorry for my 'pigheadedness' over res gestae issue ? No excuses either !

I shall now retire quietly to my cave in order that I may lick my wounds and try to save a modicum of my rapidly diminishing self-respect !

Dear o sung wu,

Of course the apology is accepted.

The fact that you extended it marks you a cut above the rest.

Just look at Jay of Melbourne was reduced to, contending that the Crime Scene Investigator Command Sergeant Major Mehmet colluded with Mr Kurdi and the photographers to strip the infants body of a blue t-shirt and dress it in a red one to apparently match a photograph of the boy. The fact that JOM keep digging rather than acknowledging his mistake has left him with zero credibility.

You wrote; “And I'm at a loss as to why ?”

The answer is is rather self evident. Your were engaged in a discussion with a person who you consider is a 'boastful, pompous, know all', 'the wisest fool', a 'little man', 'manifestly unwell', 'classic McNaghten's Rule candidate', suffering from 'delusion of grandeur', 'one very very sick puppy', relaxed with the 'entitlement languor', and a 'subjugated small businessman'. As such you were disinclined to pause and reflect on the position you were putting. It has happened to me on this forum where I was forced to give an apology, and I have little doubt it will occur again.

We all make mistakes and because of your apology I'm happy to take a clean slate into the next time we do battle, as in never mention it again.

However there is another here who may well have a new nickname – Jay of Meticulous Research.

STEELEREDUX...

I only wish you were right when you opined - perhaps I was so preoccupied with my efforts of lampooning your argument, I hadn't concentrated my mind sufficiently, on exactly what it was that I was saying concerning the applicability of 'the doctrine' ?

I believe I understand precisely what occurred, it's happened under other circumstances, but thankfully not on OLO or the Forum. Your gentle reminder of my occasionally acerbic tongue does me no credit either. You've 'let me off' with little or no censure, recognising there's more to my technical 'stumble' than first might appear ? I certainly appreciate it, but undeserving of your forbearance in this instance ? A break from, the Forum and OLO might be in order too ?

Dear o sung wu,

A break should be the last thing on your mind. I coached a team of young men in basketball grand final the other night. They were naturally disappointed to lose the game but were undermanned and didn't bring their best. That sometimes happens on the night but there is always the next game just as there is always another thread on this forum.

Keep swinging mate.

Thank you for your good advice there STEELEREDUX, I'll keep swinging as you suggest ? The only trouble, my thinking seems to be more clouded and totally disconnected with my 'swing' as it were. The Neuropsychology Unit, at the Repat. diagnosed, early 'features' of; 'General Medical Dementia' (whatever that means). Evidently, the early detection of PTSD by the 'Vietnam Veterans Counselling Service' some 7 or 8 years ago, plays no significant part in that diagnosis ? Lucky me it seems, I've got two for the price of one ! Anyway, I think I'll let it go at that. Thanks for your enquiry STEELEREDUX.

Dear SteeleRedux and O Sung Wu,

I take my hat off to you both.

You are both gentlemen.

And you add a great deal to this discussion forum!

Virtue Signaling”—A Useful Concept Reaches The Main Stream Thanks To Ann Coulter
http://www.vdare.com/posts/virtue-signaling-a-useful-concept-reaches-the-main-stream-thanks-to-ann-coulter
Personal Income of Migrants, Australia, Experimental, 2009-10
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/3418.0Main%20Features12009-10?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=3418.0&issue=2009-10&num&view

So based on the ABS figures migrant entrepreneurship accounted for about $1.8 billion dollars in the 09-10 financial year, slightly less than $2.50 per migrant. Overall the financial "contribution" made by migrants from skiled and family streams is fairly insignificant, as similar studies overseas have found when the cost of integrating migrants is taken into account and weighed against the income they generate the "benefit" is a few million dollars per year.
Humanitarian migrants are overwhelmingly a burden to society, many even receive financial support from family members abroad to supplement their welfare payments. The only refugees who seem to be doing OK are Africans, most of whom we understand are Christians in the first place and were middle class, educated and high status in their own countries before being run out by Muslims and other low IQ bandits and fanatics.
So, if it's not the "beautiful food" they bring which makes Muslims attractive migrants and we know that they will make no financial or cultural contribution over their lifetime and we know that their children will fare even worse and experience even greater "culture shock then what real justification can the bourgeois activists present beyond religious arguments like "the world is watching" and "compassion"?

Thank you FOXY for your most kind remarks - Sometimes I think my 'problems' are one of measurement ? Seemingly, I'm unable to determine the precise size of my mouth that needs to accommodate the massive foot that needs to be placed securely therein.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I think we can all identify with moments where
we should have said things differently. Moments
where we might say to ourselves afterward,
Gee I shouldn't have said that, or maybe, I should
have said it differently.

Most of us realise that it is important to be
conscious and compassionate and act with great civility.
However, we're all reluctant (or should be) to
forsake your own wisdom. What's more important?
Losing one's face, or losing one's integrity?

I think that we have to be secure and unafraid of
speaking our own mind. If our intentions are not just
to win the game, then we can feel good that we have
spoken our minds without malice or anger but just from the
depths of our truth.

I have to admit that the greatest problem I encounter on
this forum comes from posters you keep
harping on about the same thing, or harking back to
previous arguments. This I find is rarely productive and
you always end up going round in circles. I also don't
like posts that are deliberately designed to provoke
an angry response. But on a public forum such as this one,
I suppose it is normal to encounter all sorts of people.

Forum etiquette states that we should avoid personal
attacks, pettiness, abuse. That we should respect other
posters and if we disagree with them we should explain why.

Of course, as we all know - when the right buttons
are pushed - all this goes out the window.

This doesn't mean however - that we shouldn't keep on trying
to raise the bar of discussions - if we can.

Gosh, now I'm sounding like a school-teacher ...
(or a librarian) ;-)

Oh wait ...

Foxy,
Given your last two posts to O sung Wu, I am quite surprised that you have not the strength of character to withdraw your racial slur about Australia that you made on the 18-4-2014 here on OLO.

You presented your opinions as 'facts' and you know that is wrong and you should withdraw the remarks and admit that you made them.

I cannot imagine any genuine Australian deliberately misrepresenting our country by writing such 'facts'

Remember you said, "People who are in denial about racism in this country are simply ignorant. Lets look at the facts.
We imprison brown asylum seekers.
We once celebrated our national day with a white racial riot.
There were assaults on Indian students.
A little political organization called One Nation and of course 'the Intervention'
The holistic beak of our long hawkish treatment of indigenous Australians"

Dear Banjo,

If you can provide us with facts to substantiate
your claims that we don't do that.
I will happily apologise.
In the meantime the facts I presented as given by
articles found in the media - stand.

You are entitled to your opinion and being in denial,
of course. But that does not make your opinion
factual.

Dear Banjo,

BTW:

1) We do imprison brown asylum seekers.
2) We did once celebrate our national Australia Day
with a white racial riot - remember Cronulla?
3) There was a political organisation called - One Nation.
4) The "Intervention," did take place.
5) There were attacks on Indian students.
And these are not things that I have made up as "racial slurs."
These were events covered fully in the media by various
commentators.

There are also quite a few reports -
such as Mapping Social Cohesion (MSC)
done last year by Monash University's Prof.
Andrew Markus for the Scanlon Foundation that cite
racism and discrimination as among the chief concerns of new
migrants.

Good evening to you FOXY...

And I'm one of the worst offenders I'm afraid tending to reach straight for the jugular instead of arguing my case in quieter more measured tones. No excuses either, though I guess my former vocation doesn't allow one to launch into a spirited but respectful debate because there's always someone listening, ready to condemn or repeat anything you've allegedly said. Even then, what they don't know, they'll embellish upon what they 'think' they've heard, and run with that ?

Next thing you know, you're before the Local Area Command Superintendent, trying to explain your way out of statements you've never made ? So when you have the opportunity to 'unload' on some poor bugger on OLO or the Forum, 'AND' with total anonymity, you tend to go for it ? As I said FOXY, no excuses for my acerbic tongue, I'm afraid ? Just condemnation and revulsion.

Dear O Sung Wu,

You are someone I admire greatly.

You speak from your heart - always.

You are a gentleman and have integrity.

And your contribution to this forum has
been of great value and is deeply appreciated.
Not only by me - but I would say by most.

Take care - and know that you are valued highly.

Foxy,
Glad to see that at last you admit to writing the post but you cannot get out of it by saying you are quoting media articles, these are your remarks, in your name.

Your first sentence of the said post indicates that the events were/are done for racist reasons.

1) We do imprison brown asylum seekers.(We detain all unlawful arrivals irrespective of their ethnicity or skin colour)


2) We did once celebrate our national Australia Day with a white racial riot - remember Cronulla? (On one Australia Day a large number of persons gathered on Cronulla beach to demonstrate to muslims that they would not allow them to take over the beach by bullying, intimidation and other antisocial conduct. A few scuffles broke out but their was no riot, dispite media exaggeration)

3) There was a political organisation called - One Nation. (There was a political organisation called One Nation. There is even now various political parties. You are implying that ON was racist yet neither the party nor its leader, Pauline Hanson, was ever found to make any racist comments by a court or tribunal. I might add that ON put up candidates of various ethnicities, including indigenous. ON still exists, by the way)

To be cont

cont.

4) The "Intervention," did take place. (Yes, and for the sole purpose or preventing further sexual and other abuse to aboriginal children, The report called 'Little children are angels'. Children were suffering neglect and abuse, some as young as 3 yo were found to have STD)

5) There were attacks on Indian students. (Yes and investigations found that the attacks were carried out by ethnic gangs, with robbery as the reason. What was disgusting about this is that the victims and the state authorities allowed all and sundry, including the Indian media, to believe initially that the attacks were by anglo Aussies and for racist reasons.)

But foxy you know all this and yet you chose to spin the events to indicate racist reasons and intentions. Your intention was simply to slime Australia, our governments and citizens. What makes it worse is that you have the interlect and education to know better. To my mind that makes you unworthy of citizenship.

The remarks you made were certainly designed as racist slurs

Dear Banjo,

I went back to my post of the 18-4-2014 - because I
could not remember in what context my remarks were made.
Lo and behold it was in a discussion about vandal attacks
on a mosque and that this sort of behaviour should not
be acceptable in a multicultural society.
As we all know Muslims are your bet peeve.
And have been for quite some time on this forum.

I am surprised that you are now in this discussion hankering
back to this topic - when it was so widely covered at that
time. And anti-Muslim feelings were widely being expressed
so strongly in the community. Why bring it up now?

Also, You accuse me
of not being worthy of Australian citizenship. Do you really
believe that? Then that says more about you than it does
about me Sir.

As far as racism is concerned? There is so much on the web
dealing with this issue - from a very wide variety of sources.

All someone has to do is keep their eyes and ears open
on a daily basis. They don't have to venture far from
their front door in this country to encounter
racist attitudes or hear racist remarks and jokes.

As I stated back then - all of us have our prejudices -
against the rich, or the poor, the smart or the slow,
the gaunt or the obese, the progressive or the
conservative, and so on. It is natural to develop
prejudices.

It is however noble to rise above them.

And as for your accusation of my "slurring" this country.
Stating facts that exist - does not equate with "slurring."

Here are a few links for your information:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/racism-on-the-rise-in-australia-migrants-report-culture-shift-20140405-365a5.html

And -

http://www.news.com.au/national/australians-are-racist-and-unfriendly-say-migrants/story-fncynjr2-1226862883355

As I stated then - I'll repeat it now.
I wouldn't dream of trying to stop your thinking old chap.
I'm too busy being fabulous.

The Cronulla demonstration was on December 11 2005, not January 26 and it had nothing to do with "racism", some of the handful of violent protestors were Pacific Islanders, Indians and Aboriginals, it's all on film and readily available. The young people of Cronulla had simply had enough of Lebanese gang violence and because the Police and government wouldn't listen much less do anything about it they rioted and tried to show that they were not going to take it anymore.
Things are heading toward a similar boiling point in Melbourne for exactly the same reasons, it's got to the point that White kids in the Northern suburbs can't have parties and no parent wants to host them because gangs of Lebanese thugs roam the suburbs gate crashing and assaulting party goers, it's even happened at primary school age kid's gatherings, the Lebs sole objective is to "bash White dogs". And no Foxy there are no White gangs, period, they don't exist, there are gangs made up of kids from different backgrounds, Indians, Whites, Asians etc who band together for safety because they're picked on by the Lebanese, Islanders and Africans.
You don't know about these things because you probably don't have young kids and you don't live in a run down area, the Age and 3AW have just started reporting on this problem of ethnic gang violence because it's become impossible to ignore due to several Police coming forward to the media to raise the alarm.

Foxy,
The reason I again raise your post of the 18-4-2014 is to remind you, and others, that although you project yourself as a 'nice' person you are actually quite different.

That particular post of yours clearly shows you to be a person who does tell untruths and spin, twist and portray events with the sole object of disparaging Australia. our governments and citizens.

One doesn't mind fair criticism but to twist happenings is downright dishonest.

The more you can twist events and happenings to pour slime the more it suits your objective.

Dear Banjo,

I accept that is what you believe.

It happens to be untrue.

I have provided you with many websites and links
and various other sources over our time on this
forum regarding this country's history. And this
information is freely available for anyone
interested in doing their research.

You were the one who again brought up this topic
in an attempt to slur me. You told me I am not worthy
of being an Australian citizen - which is a dreadful
thing to say to someone. And totally uncalled for.
You tell me that I am not
very nice. Well Sir, take a look at yourself in the
mirror. I will match my posting record on this forum
with yours any day.

I shan't respond to you any further.
Think whatever you like - as I told runner -
You Sir are in no position to judge anyone when you yourself
lack the very basics of decency in your behaviour.

As Winston Churchill once stated -

"You will never get to the end of the journey
if you stop to shy a stone
at every dog that barks."

Jay of Melbourne

Thank you for information you posted for viewing on 7 September post.