We're told by governments, scientists, medical practitioners and demographers, that we're all living longer, and our progeny and their descendants, can expect to live EVEN longer still ? Think of all the benefits, the advantages we can expect by enjoying a longer life span ? A bit like 'daylight saving' really ? A few extra hours of daylight, that allows us to enjoy our garden longer, or an extra hour or so at the beach ?

Or are there more negatives, adverse effects of a prolonged life than there are benefits ?

This Topic was the original idea of FOXY, she was even kind enough to outline the points for discussion, as it were ? Almost a non-medical 'sequela' of my own feeble effort, dealing with mandatory euthanasia of the aged ?

What are the 'positives' of aging ? In my own case, I feel more judicious even calmer than when I was still at work. What about you ? Do you consider yourself smarter, wiser, more influential perhaps ? We'd all like to hear, I'm sure.

Is there a significant 'downside' to getting old ? Oh yeah, definitely ! We're all just 'pausing' in God's waiting room, each of us waiting our turn ?

Anyway, what are the adverse effects of aging ? Our health deteriorates, no matter how hard we try to look after ourselves ? Almost impossible to find meaningful work, if you're in that almost unemployable age group of 55 - 65 ? The prospect of prematurely loosing our life's partner ? Deterioration of our locomotion, consigning us more and more to our homes ?

Socially, we can suffer discrimination and intolerance, even from younger family members ? I was particularly intolerant of my dear grandmother when I was younger, despite everything she did for me ? I'll take that guilt to my grave, as I should and beyond, if there's any real justice, but I was a bastard ? In retail outlets, are older people actually 'seen' and treated with the respect they rightly deserve ?

Continued...

"growing old is nothing more than mind over matter, if you don't mind it doesn't matter" saying on a poster I saw recently

Working class people living now are fortunate to be living now compared to what media past non living generations histories describe. I pose an idea that our fortunate living conditions have been obtained due to some long ago policy to convince populations not to have too many children to support parents in their old age. Hence many countries having social security old age pensions and free health care. These social security luxuries being introduced without a working class rioting in the streets.
My belief is that federal government debt concerns over time will be used in removing many of these free social security benefits. Because modern human behaviours are not conditioned to large family unit self-serving support systems as past generations were, families will maintain fewer numbers of children without considering large family unit security as an alternative.
I maintain governments invent bank money credits because capitalist balance sheet ideology doesn't work. The 1930s depression used to repress consumption after which world war 2 has most everybody employed towards the war effort. Capitalist profit making tax receivables after expenses can not balance when capitalist companies receive money from governments expenditures providing non company profits making military hardware. After the war few concerns of the great depression remain. Even though money turnover is used as how the war was paid for the analogy is easily debunked.
I believe and will argue if given the chance, governments and centralised share market traded corporations invent bank credits to pay wages regardless of profits. Encouraging populations into saving money for retirement years, reducing consumption of limited resources.
I believe government expenditures are far greater than taxable incomes regardless how much economic corporation and private sector growth exists, income tax credits will never exceed government expenditures.
I believe the people whom select political candidates for elections are the real power in governments, such people using boom bust cycles and government budget expenditure propaganda to regulate consumer expenditures and accumulated working class savings. the longer wealthy people live, the longer their children wait to receive an inheritance to spend.

CONTINUED from my initial Post...

As we age we encounter many more obstacles to inhibit the preferred way we live and enjoy our lives ? Moreover, should we wish to take a holiday as an example, we're more restricted to where we go and what we do ? This is before we even consider the cost.

Despite Medicare we can all rely upon, when we become unwell, there's still considerable out of pocket expenses to be found. Just getting to the Doctor, pharmacy costs, out-patient expenses, waiting time for elective surgery (unless we pay into a health fund). It's generally accepted younger people have far less costs associated with health than we older folk ?

Research has shown older people living alone, including some of those residing with families, often experience periods of depression, feelings of isolation and abandonment ? Some who are seemingly surrounded by family, claim their opinions are neither heard or appreciated. And many of the younger family members treat their elderly relatives quite dismissively, claiming they're generationally impotent on many topical and contemporary issues ?

Sure we elderly no longer need to rise early in order to get ready for work ? Sadly some even question the need to get up at all ? Particularly many of those living alone. Seems no point in getting up, without any reason ? No one to see and nothing to do ?

We hear all too often, an elderly neighbour has been found deceased in their own flat or home, not having been seen for four of five weeks ? Only then being found because of the repugnant miasma of advanced decomposition emanating from the dwelling. Just another legacy of being old ? Anyway nobody will miss them, therefore they'll die alone ? With their NOK eagerly clamouring around, in the vain hope they've been favourably mentioned in the Will ?

The whole sorry episode can be best described as morally despicable even loathsome - a glaring example of the odious seduction of 'filthy lucre' !

Growing old just puts us a little closer to meeting our Maker. For those who have found forgiveness in Christ they have much to look forward to. To others, they are taking their chances (which are not good).

God what a lucky life I & most of my generation have had.

We are just young enough to have missed the dreadful wars, & reached puberty when a really good education was available to any smart enough to grab it. Jobs were plentiful, houses cheap, & health care available for a few shillings a week.

Personally I was young when the taxpayer wanted young blokes to fly off aircraft carriers, but we did not have to get shot at while doing it. In my prime racing cars were cheap, & simple enough for a simple bloke to maintain. Anyone who really wanted to could afford one, or a yacht if that was your preference. People with normal incomes could do it all, if they avoided grog & gambling.

For a young person to live my life today would require an indulgent millionaire father, or the ability to rob banks without getting caught.

With simple tastes, [don't smoke, drink, or like clubs, restaurants, or gambling], I can afford a couple of reasonably nice old cars, & the odd trip to visit old friends in distant places. Thank heaven that none of my aches are aggravated driving my cars. All in all, it is a great life, if a little slower today.

Hell I even timed it right to take advantage of the net in my old age. I can still learn new things, share some loves with like minded people, & fight with a few too. It would get lonely with out all my friends around the world on my motoring sights, & places like this.

Continued.

Continued

It is not all peaches & cream though.

I do have to hurry up & visit those old friends, the buggers keep popping off regularly, 2 of them in the last 6 weeks.

I do get sick of hurting, & if that doctor gives me any more pills to take, I'll have to give up eating to fit them all. It would be nice to be able to stop hurting long enough to get to sleep some nights.

I miss being able to walk around all the cars at a classic car show, & would love to ride a horse again, if only I could still climb onto one.

I do find it a little frustrating how long it takes me today to master a new skill. My son home from the navy, living in my granny flat, has a couple of remote control model aircraft. I was surprised how different flying a model is to the real thing, but at least I didn't damage the one I crash landed.

I have bought a remote control simulator for the computer, designed to teach 10 year olds how to fly the things. I am getting there, & have only taken twice as long as those 10 year old, so not too bad for an old bloke.

I have bought a cheap & nasty one to do a bit of private practice with, before trying his nice ones again.

You know, tough as it is, I wouldn't be dead for quids.

Ageing - What can we expect, as we grow older?

The experience and the meaning of ageing differs not
only from individual to individual, but also from
one social and historical context to another.

For example, being an adolescent today is very different
from being an adolescent fifty or a hundred years ago,
In fact, being an adolescent right now is a different
experience in some respects than it was even a few years
ago, for people who are born at roughly the same time have
a common history that is unlike that of all others in their
society. These people experience the same events differently
than do those who were born earlier, later in life.

Another influence on the meaning of ageing and on the
relationships among different age categories is a society's
age structure, the relative proportion of different age
categories in a population. If a society happens to have
a high-proportion of non-working children or young people
or old people an extra burden is laid on the working
population, for its members are expected to share much of
what they produce with a large number of dependents.

Naturally, this situation can increase the likelihood of
competition among different age strata for their share of
society's resources. Children, however large their humbers,
have little direct political influence; but a large aged
population may be better able to protect its interests.

Today, the aged are an effectice political force, and they
do press for improved Social Security and other benefits.
Also, today social gerontologists take a rather more
positive view, one that stresses diversity among the
elderly and recognises that many of them draw great
satisfaction from the final stage of the life course.
Gerontologists point out that most of the aged have modest but
adequate incomes, own their own homes, drive their own cars,
are fully capable of getting about on their own, and need
relatively little in the way of social services.

Even so, the aged still have some distinctive problems,
the most obvious being the possibility of poor health.

cont'd...

cont'd ...

Advancing age inevitably brings with it a series
of health problems, for the human body gradually
degenerates with the passage of the years. Of course,
the rate at which people appear to age varies a great
deal, and people of seventy or eighty may be healthier,
and even seem younger, than people twenty years their
junior. Nonetheless, a certain percentage of those
over the age of sixty-five suffer from some chronic
health problems, and although the aged represent a
small percentage of the total population, they fill
many of all hospital beds, and use a large percentage
of the drugs prescribed each year.

The most common ailments suffered by the aged include
arthritis, diabetes, glaucoma,
cancer, heart disease, and senility.
Diseases that can usually be treated, but not cured.
Senility is perhaps the most notorious disability of the aged
as far as the rest of the population is oncerned, but the
condition is rare among people under seventy-five, only thereafter
does it become more common.

Yet, if people live long enough dependence becomes inevitable.
Extreme old age, beginning around the eighties, is
accompanied, sooner or later, by a slowing or even crippling
of mental and physical processes. Unable or unwilling to
take care of an elderly relative, younger family members may
arrange for the aged person to move to a nursing or old-age
home. This prosepct is hardly an appealing one, however, at best
it means living in an unfamiliar environment where one
relies for medical and oterh needs on a professional staff
rather than on family. Some homes offer suberb facilities,
but many are dreary, shabby, and ill-equipped places, run
by people whose concern is not the best interests of the elderly
but rather whatever profit they can wring from the enterprise.

Today, fewer than one in five dies in a familiar context.
Most meet death in a hospital or nursing home.

Hi there STEVE101...

You've certainly described a economic blueprint governments may have, concerning current and future social security structure ? Do you believe it contains sufficient allowance for the fiscal needs of the aged ?

You assert that government expenditure far outstrips what taxpayers pay into the coffers of government, and not all of that expenditure is earmarked for social security, moreover even less for aged care ? Older people are remaining healthier therefore working longer and earning more ? Consequently depriving their progeny from inheriting from their estate, rather then relying on their own income to get ahead and establishing a sound foundation for their own retirement ? A most interesting hypothesis ?

Thanks STEVE101.

Hello there FOXY & HASBEEN...

Both of you have provided a thoroughly good appreciation of what aging means for you ? From the onset of senility to combating increasing pain levels. Interestingly, neither of you have taken a pessimistic outlook of your own aging and the potential negative consequences of becoming old ?

Those poor souls living alone would find it quite hard to motivate themselves, into doing something productive. Whereas I firmly believe part of the secret of keeping aging at bay, and the deleterious effects of aging, is to undertake something positive ? Using your mind, by engaging in reading and writing, even providing commentary on some of the topics on this Forum as an example ? Just try something, rather than simply drifting into a state of oblivion or vegetation ?

From the sound of it, neither of you, FOXY or HASBEEN, have much to worry about, considering how sharp you both are, judging by what you write, and in the erudite way you write ?

Dear O Sung Wu,

I think for many people whether or not their retirement is a
happy one seems to depend largely on how financially
secure they are. I am doing everyting I possibly can to ensure
that finances will not be a problem for me in my old age.
I would hate to be a burden either to my family or the state.

Also I agree with you that retaining an active life after
retirement is important as well. This reduces feelings of
uselessness, boredom, frustration and depression.
Of course isolation is not to be confused with independence,
which involves the ability to control one's own life. Many
of the elderly fear losing that independence as a result of
ill-health or financial problems. I was taught from a very
young age -
to be self-sufficient and autonomous, and understandably
fear the shift from the role of an independent person to a
dependent one - so I am preparing for the worst-case
scenario in my old age. Hopefully I shan't be a burden to
anyone and will go on contributing to society for a
very long time - even after I retire.

Hi FOXY...

It would seem this topic is not drawing much attention. Alternatively, it's me that's not provided sufficient motivation or encouragement for others to contribute ? So I think it's time that I simply took my leave if you'll excuse me.

FOXY your last thread spoke volumes of good sense, particularly where we're depending on others to look after us when we can no longer care for ourselves. The sad fact is, when older people are placed in a retirement homes, or village, where the noun 'dependency' is employed, than another individual is actually 'paid' to care for you, and that's where the main problem arises.

There's no doubt there are many thousands of healthcare workers who put their heart and soul into caring for aged people in these homes. And we should be eternally grateful that these (dedicated) geriatric professionals, have unselfishly given over (often) their entire vocational lives to look after our aged. That said, there a small proportion of people who couldn't give a damn for their aged charges ? And there's even a much small number of misfit's within the profession, who delight in making these old people lives, decidedly unhappy - these people are despicable. A couple have even committed murder !

Personally, I'll not willingly enter a dependency facility. Should that likelihood arise, I'll take immediate steps to end my own life while I'm still able. I'll not leave a mess for either family or police to clean up ? Enough said on this issue, which is obviously personal.

Thanks again FOXY for your contribution, and you too HASBEEN, if you're 'on line'. To anyone else, I'm profoundly sorry if I've bored you. You can be assured it was completely unintentional and involuntary.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for having raised this discussion.
I for one got a great deal out of it.
It made me re-think some of my plans and also
face some of my fears.

I wish you a long, happy, and fulfilling life
and many, many more years of posting on OLO.

I look forward to your next discussion.

Take care.

Dear FOXY...

Thank you very much indeed for your most kind comments, I really appreciate them. Seems you win some and lose some ?

Take care FOXY.

Don't beat yourself up unnecessarily o sung wu...

"To anyone else, I'm profoundly sorry if I've bored you."

It is possible for people to follow a thread or a commenter with interest without feeling an incentive to always contribute to it.

As you say, "You can be assured it was completely unintentional and involuntary."

But then, so is incontinence... which, coincidentally is on topic!

Have you noticed that for many 'what we can expect as we grow older' is often the same as when we first entered the world?

Insentience, incontinence, being fed and bathed, dribbling, lack of fine physical motor skills and control, emotional immaturity, simple-minded distraction with colour and movement, delight in music, etc.

Oddly our early childhood is remembered as a stage of existence when we felt most secure, contented and loved... it would be nice to wish these feelings for all who grow older.

We go out of this world in the reverse sequence to that with which we entered it... including bright lights at the end of dark tunnels... but for different reasons.

Dear O Sung Wu,

You'll always be a winner in my eyes dear chap.
You have a good heart.

And BTW - my husband this morning has offered to
support me if I was interested in going back
to University full time to do a PhD.
I was totally taken by surprise - but it's something
that I have to think about. So it looks like my
"old-age," may be kept at bay for a while yet.

Hi there WM TREVOR...

William, thank you very much for your kind support, though quite undeserved I'm afraid ? A bad feature arising out of my former employment, one tends to develop (as a protective measure so I'm reliably informed?) an acerbic, often abrasive tongue which is(apparently) OK within the job, but patently intolerable outside of it !

And with some on this Forum and OLO, forgiveness even a degree of amnesty is not an arbitrary quality of their personality ? Therefore one must accept their judgement with good grace, and 'suck it up' as they say !

William, your excellent juxtaposition of infancy and old age is positively brilliant, and remarkably true. When you come to think of it, all those behavioural processes do occur as you so accurately described. Should it concern us I wonder, or accept it as merely part of the natural progression for our end of life ?

You occasionally hear of some notable, hitherto brilliant men and women who made remarkable impressions upon us all during their acclaimed lifetimes, languishing away in nursing homes, sadly in the depths of senility and not even recognising close family members ?

Thinking of these poor souls almost regressing back to their infancy, is disturbing to some I should think ? Personally, I'm a little more pragmatic (I hope?) and accept, this 'degeneration' is all part of natures plan, and there's bugger all one can do about it anyway ! After all, it's not an affront to our dignity if it's beyond our control ?

Your thread was absolutely brilliant the way you tied it all together, not to mention your very kind sentiments, for which I thank you very much indeed William.

Dear FOXY...

If there's anyone on this Forum or OLO, who could successfully achieve a Doctorate, it's you FOXY ! I've done several University courses and I found the experience fascinating !

My first experience of University, would've no doubt produced a real laugh. Day one we were to assemble in the 'old' law lecture theatre at 10 o'clock for the first lecture. Being late February, it was still quite hot, so I wore a shirt and tie minus my coat. I was a detective in those days, and there were minimum standards of dress.

Anyway after arriving there, I was met with this unruly 'gaggle' of people sporting beards, long hair, canvas shoulder bags etc. and here's me neatly dressed in a tie ? My initial introduction to our first lecturer, entailed being confronted by this middle aged bloke, wearing old green jeans, shirt tails outside those jeans, pony tail and was generally rumpled. Yet I was totally amazed by this bloke's immense knowledge of the criminal law (as any decent LL.M should be) and from that moment on, I was besotted by the whole University experience.

All three courses that I did (individual Units only, at different times, at different Uni's) though all examinable, they did not confer any sort of degree status. Each course was of a full term duration, just sufficient to give me a thorough exposure to all the vagaries of University life, and I embraced it completely !

You'd be know stranger to academic life FOXY as evidenced by the quality and superiority of many of your different 'threads'. Though, some of what you've said, I've disagreed with you vehemently ? That aside, the calibre and merit of much of your analysis and inquiry, reveals that you've achieved an eclectic spectrum of tertiary qualifications, that are both comprehensive and broad.

Therefore any future antagonists you may have, would be well advised to exercise great care if he or she wishes to engage in any adversarial debate concerning whatever topic there is that's currently under discussion ?

GOOD LUCK & THANK YOU FOXY !

Dear O Sung Wu,

I can identify with your description of your first
days at uni. My father had bought for me a magnificent
very expensive coat (beautiful, elegant, reversible)
to wear to uni. He was proud of his little girl.
I ended up swapping it for a sort of hoodie-type jacket
that everyone was wearing back then - without telling
my dad. The girl who got my expensive coat was obviously
far more clever than I was. When I asked for a swap back -
I of-course was told where to go. That girl and my coat
later disappeared from my class and I was stuck with
wearing the hoodie for the rest of winter that year.

Thank you for your well-wishes. I haven't decided whether
to study yet. It's a big decision - and one I'm not yet
so sure of. I don't know if I'm prepared to make that
commitment. I have to give it a great deal more thought.

Dear FOXY...

Whatever decision you may choose to make I'm sure it will be correct ? It's my understanding (usually quite erroneous) but a PhD generally involves a supervised thesis, and much of it can be undertaken at home ? Obviously you would know far more about the mechanics of it all than I, but the need to travel often to the actual campus is lessened if that's any help to you FOXY ?

Furthermore being a well qualified Librarian, means you'd know precisely how to access the various references you've been given, in order to tease out all the various passages, ratifications, excerpts and citations necessary for your thesis ?

And I'd have to agree, should you undertake such an academic odyssey, nothing less than total commitment would be required ? You'd know that better than anyone I would expect, 'Doctor FOXY' ?

Best of luck whatever your decision may be !

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You.

All The Best.