This morning I was watching the news and a story with a narrative about the Royals attending a memorial for fallen British solders from the Afghan War. Along the bottom of the screen, someone here in Australia created the text 'Royals attend service for the 486 dead heroes of Afghan war.' The British were not regarding every solder killed in action as a hero, but someone at the ABC apparently does.

We have seen similar misrepresentations with all of the victims of the 9/11 Twin Towers being called heroes and more recently some referred to the Lindt Café hostages as heroes. Even cancer survivors are now sometimes referred to as heroes.

Heroes are the ones who through their own bravery and personal risk save others, allowing those saved to be the survivors. Getting killed instantly and unexpectedly will sitting at your desk; hiding under a table; or escaping the threat to save one's life is not an act of heroism.

Are the do-gooders who want to remove the score from children's competitive sports the same people attempting to escalate anyone who is killed or survives a tragedy to hero status. The watering down of 'hero' needs to be stopped and our media needs to start taking some responsibility for getting the context right.

The following two definitions provide perspective on who should receive the accolades attributed to a hero:

(1) A person who is admired for their distinguished courage, brave deeds, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities.

(2) "True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost." — Arthur Ashe

ConservativeHippie

I suspect we have not heard of the name of most heroes. One of my heroes is a man who served the aboriginals for 50 years as a missionary receiving very little payment. He sacrificed much with getting next to zilch in return. Certainly a rare breed today. Usually when awards are given it is to some high paid Government official.

Each culture produces its heroes, and these
are usually passed down from generation to generation.
We need models of human behaviour that help give
meaning and value to life. As science provides answers,
new questions and new dilemmas arise. Man's ongoing
spiritual search to Truth and Life will continue and
heroes will be a part of the search. Man's questioning
never ceases. The supreme quest of every age is to look
beyond the edge of present vision.

Heroes will always exist. Today's youth lives with the
fear of nuclear catastrope and so searches for some
certainty. Children need role models - and they need
to also know that life's possibilities are without limit.

In my own case I learnt from biographies that even great
individuals start out as everyday children.

Then we have the role models in historical stories and
legends. King Arthur showed what a noble deed looked
like - and that there is such as thing as duty and
sacrifice. Cinderella enchanted not because she got the
prince but because she was cheerful and dignified even
in unbearable circumstances. J. K. Rowling's, Harry Potter
series, showed that good can triumph over evil, and so it
goes.

Heroes will continue to be produced.
And they will continue to be heroic.

Well as Foxy has demonstrated the ideal of heroism has been detached from it's proper context in the concept of virility, from virility we get virtue and heroism is a virtue. Virtue IS masculinity (a virtuous woman being the equal of a man by the way), Jack Donovan in his book The Way Of Men describes it as a set of tactical virtues sought by men from other men, strength, courage, mastery and honour and a hero embodies those in the eyes of his peers.
The term "role model" is another post modern buzzword,if anything it implies the opposite of heroism, a self selected label like any of the other myriad Tumblr and 4chan identity constructs and "isms".
Heroism isn't a role, it's an essential quality, the same can be said of masculinity, today's "role models" are mostly deployed to suppress virility and by pathologising masculinity head off any activity which might lead to heroism.

The following is taken from the website given below.
It is worth a read.

We are told that -

"For thousands of years, heroic stories have been
used to inspire, motivate, and transfer cultural
values to children."

"The stories have a common pattern. They begin with
a likeable hero who encounters a challenge of roadblock
in life, And then, with the help of others, the hero emerges
from the difficult situation transformed by his or her
experiences."

"Heroic stories are found everywhere in modern media".

"In "Avatar," Jake Sully is a paralyzed ex-Marine who has
the opportunity to walk again through a proxy Na'vi body
in the world of Pandora. But he encounters an unexpected
challenge. He falls in love with a Na'vi woman, Neytin,
and is forced to choose sides in an epic battle between
the humans and the Na'vi people."

"With the help of many, Jake's leadership prevails and the
humans are defeated. Jake is permanently transformed in a
Na'vi body where he lives the rest of his life with Neytin".

Jospeh Campbell, renowed mythologist and author of "The Hero
with a Thousand Faces" believes that people created heroes
and myths out of their own human experiences.

Why? To constantly remind us anything is possible!
When we face difficult life challenges we draw on heroic
stories for inspiration and to help us persevere through
obstacles.

Heroes show us a way to overcome life's challenges through
the use of a variety of character strengths and virtues.

Heroes are humans who have succeeded in breaking barriers
that previously limited them. They will continue to inspire
us.

http://www.rootsofaction.com/role-of-heroes-for-children/

cont'd ...

I forgot to add an important point that Campbell
makes and it's this:

Too often, children, teenagers and even some adults
view heroes as myths or legends rather than
representations of mere humans who succeeded in
breaking barriers that previously limited them.

Campbell saw this as a deep problem with modern-day
individuals who failed to see the value of heroic
stories in their own lives.

For parents and teachers, these stories can be tools to
teach young people how to face and overcome challenges
in the real world. But they need to take these modern
day films beyond entertainment. Adults need to have
conversations with young people that delve more deeply
into meaning.

A reporter once asked me how I raised the courage to drive a formula 1 around Bathurst. I tried to explain that it didn't require courage to do something you really wanted to do.

To me, people who jump out of perfectly serviceable air craft are not brave, courageous or heroic, just mad. To them it is just fun.

The fire fighters who rushed into the twin towers on 9/11 were heroic. Sure they were trained for it, but it still required lots of courage,

The people who go into little suburban house fires to save people are even more heroic I think. You know those rooves are going to fall in sometime soon. The chance of serious injury or death are probably even greater in the little fires.

I do get sick of reports of a "brave" little child, recovering after injury. Getting injured takes no bravery, just a silly mistake by someone usually. After that we, child or adult, simply do what is required for recovery.

I have no idea of heroism in the face of an enemy. Yes I trained to defend my country, but have luckily never had to put that training to use. I think the bravado of doing things in a group would help there, & I think I could handle it.

How people raise the courage to go under cover as a spy is something I can only marvel at.

The New York Times carried the story of a man who jumped to the rescue of a fellow who fell onto the line, shielding his body as a train passed overhead.

<Mr. Autrey was waiting for the downtown local at 137th Street and Broadway in Manhattan around 12:45 p.m. He was taking his two daughters, Syshe, 4, and Shuqui, 6, home before work.

Nearby, a man collapsed, his body convulsing. Mr. Autrey and two women rushed to help, he said. The man, Cameron Hollopeter, 20, managed to get up, but then stumbled to the platform edge and fell to the tracks, between the two rails.

The headlights of the No. 1 train appeared. “I had to make a split decision,” Mr. Autrey said.

So he made one, and leapt.

Mr. Autrey lay on Mr. Hollopeter, his heart pounding, pressing him down in a space roughly a foot deep. The train’s brakes screeched, but it could not stop in time.

Five cars rolled overhead before the train stopped, the cars passing inches from his head, smudging his blue knit cap with grease. Mr. Autrey heard onlookers’ screams. “We’re O.K. down here,” he yelled, “but I’ve got two daughters up there. Let them know their father’s O.K.” He heard cries of wonder, and applause.>
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/03/nyregion/03life.html?_r=0

In Australia, Sydney's major metropolitan newspaper (SMH) lauded a first grade footballer as a 'hero' after he was 'gutted'(his words reportedly) by a word said by a girl minor. A word that the child could not have imagined would have the import that he took.

It is up to us to decide. It in the past it was selfless bravery in extreme circumstances. That remains the test for most people the world over.

Jay Of Melbourne,

You (and Donovan) raise some good points that really deserve a thread to tease out the significant issues. Few people comprehend the cultural change that has occurred in the West. It has been a bloodless - well, relatively bloodless - coup.

Taken from a website for your information:

"Moaning about the worthiness of the "Australian of the Year"
winner (or his hero status), is the equivalent of shooting fish
in a barrel for your standard Australian whinger."

Whingers are people who will whinge about anything as the article
indicates, including sand at the beach.

Goodes is a footballer - yes, but as the website points
out, he's much more than that.

"On May 24 last year a picture of Goodes ran on the
back of some News Ltd publications with him standing in the
middle of the SCG on sunset, lifting his Swans jumper and
pointing to his dark skin."

"He was dipping his lid to another Indigenous hero, St Kilda's
Nicky Winmar, who 30 years earlier had lifted his shirt and
said, "I'm black and I'm proud,"
after Collingwood fans had
baited him with barbs such as,
"Go and sniff some petrol."

"That's exactly what the photo symbolises to me," Goodes
said of Winmar's remarks." "Even today 20 years later it
highlights how every Indigenous person should feel about
their heritage."

"Imagine the grief Goodes must have felt when he was standing
near the boundary line at the MCG later that night when a
13 year old Collingwood fan called him an "Ape."

"People don't understand how one word can cut so deep.
I haven't always been a confident young man ..."
"But I have learned to stand up for myself."

What makes Goodes deserving is ...
when Goodes took a call from a distressed teenage girl and
then asked via social media for the community to support
her.

"It is also about how he handled Magpies President Eddie McGuire
a few days later when he joked on radio that Goodes would
be a good promoter for the King Kong stage production."

"It is about the GO Foundation he has formed with cousin
and former Swans team-mate Michael O"loughlin in 2009,
providing scholarships for Indigenous students."

"It is about last year when he has been at the forefront
of raising awarness of the issue of domestic violence."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/why-adam-goodes-is-an-inspired-and-inspiring-choice-as-australian-of-the-year-20140126-31gst.html

Moving right along, it is 15/03/15 - the new media hero,

"Dayne Pratzky, coal seam gas crusader and maker of the movie ‘Frackman’, is the Aussie hero you’ve never heard of"
http://tinyurl.com/m7m2dnt

Not having checked all of the papers much less those so-called 'independent' blogs frequented by some, I cannot say that Dayne is the only hero for today.

A thug is a thug is a thug, no matter what their heritage.

Yes definitely. But let's also not forget
that a hero, is a hero, is a hero, no
matter what their heritage.

How many of you have ever heard of Chiune Sugihara?

The following website explains:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara

The media has a lot to do with manufacturing hero's, goes as far as constructing such a thing as a sporting hero. Take two for example (both dead) Sir Donald Bradman and Sir Jack Brabham, both formally recognised with state knighthoods. In no way do I detract from these two gentlemen's sporting prowess, they were great sportsmen in their chosen fields. Were they hero's, and do they, and others deserve to be labeled as such? I do not think so.

Fox,

Have you heard of this man, Corporal Ben Roberts-Smith VC,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjtaDj2JIzY

who was subjected to gross sexist and misandrist taunts by gutless. self-promoting grubs, Yumi Stynes and journalist George Negus in particular, on a low-rent TV talk show, The Cirle?

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/i-feel-sick-circle-host-shocked-at-backlash-over-dud-root-comment-20120229-1u1mr.html

To cover their behinds and avoid responsibility for the unwarranted comments some of the offenders even tried to get sympathy for themselves. One, a sniggering woman on The Circle, didn't even come forward to admit fault and apologise.

I seem to remember that the attitude from some of OLO's posters was that the VC recipient should 'man up' and not be offended for himself or his wife and family. In fact Ben Roberts-Smith did his best to avoid comments even though asked by the crass media who wanted further controversy and to protect their own. Nonetheless he was obliged to have a long interview with a different channel where he conducted himself flawlessly and volunteering personal information as was made regrettably necessary by the previous violation of his personal realm and privacy.

Paul1405,

I agree that the two cricketers are wrongly called heroes or even 'legends', a term that is also thrown around by the tabloids, which practically all of the media is now.

They were also notable for avoiding excuses, self-promotion and politics in sport, some things that most people of the world and certainly most Australians, abhor.

otb,

Yes I am familiar with the Corporal and his family.
I have never watched The Circle and I don't know
who Yumi Stynes is. Where is she today?
I don't as a rule watch the usual run of -
talk shows.
"Q and A," is different - because the
audience asks the questions - and it deals with
political discussions in which I am interested.

However, I am familiar with Sir Ernest Edward "Weary"
Dunlop. I was privileged to meet him and make a
presentation to him a few decades ago at the Dallas Brooks Hall.
A truly remarkable man. A most memorable event.

otb

he was fair game as he was a 32 year old white male with family. Usaully made fun of by the leftist media whose own values scrape the bottom of the barrow due to total personal value.

runner,

Regrettably there may be some truth in that.

Dear runner,

A newspoll recently asked -

Is it really possible for journalists
to be truly objective, neutral, detached,
and leaving every skerrick of his or her
personal baggage behind. Does the ABC, or
the Murdoch, or Fairfax Press, or any
other Australian News Media outlet have
a discernible political or philosophical bias?

The answers were mixed -

they depended on one's own views and values.
Because - bias it seems - is in the eyes of the beholder.

'evening to you ONTHEBEACH...

I've just read the two links you kindly provided all of us. I don't think a decent bloke like Cpl. ROBERT-SMITH VC, could care less about those two tedious 'news hacks' with their inane and stereotyped remarks, particularly those which were uttered by that boring 'over the hill' mini-scribbler, Geo. Negus. Apparently a 'little man' trying hard to be considered one of the big boys !

The lady Ms Yumi STYNES I've never heard of, so I can't possibly comment on her, other than the ridiculous remarks she made in this case ? If she were to accompany poor ol' George N. around long enough, she'd end up being as totally redundant as he ! So she should choose carefully the company she keeps ?

A personal observation if I may ? I've seen a bit of combat in my military service ? But for one to acquit oneself, in such challenging circumstances, when time literally 'pauses', to perform such a feat of such monumentally valour; that attracts the award of the fabled Victoria Cross, is totally beyond me ? How any individual could denigrate a recipient of such an award, is truly astonishing ?

'Because - bias it seems - is in the eyes of the beholder.'

Yeah Foxy one man puts his life on the line for others and is mocked by grubs. A footballer earning millions (thanks to our soldiers) get called a monkey and from a silly young girl and his offended. Strangely it is idiotic evolutionary doctrine that says we evolved from apes. The greatest supporters of this fantasy are quickest to jump to this overpaid footballers defense. Yeah bias is in the eye of the beholder - you certainly prove that.

.

Dear Runner,

.

You wrote :

« I suspect we have not heard of the name of most heroes. One of my heroes is a man who served the aboriginals for 50 years as a missionary receiving very little payment. He sacrificed much with getting next to zilch in return. Certainly a rare breed today. »

Good for you, Runner. I can understand that and fully agree with you.

.

Dear runner,

The eye sees only what the mind is prepared
to comprehend.

Presuming you are referring to one-eyed empathetic political correctness of the totalitarian leftists.

They need THEIR heroes for their cultural war, which has been fought and already all but won in Australia. The leftists' 'heroes' are always political and need clever, manipulative rhetoric to justify them and that is the difference. Such faux, media-spun heroes talk up and profit from their sought celebrity too.

As for the tabloid media, it is anything to entice a bigger audience of easily-led, dumbed-down consumers for their advertisers.

The millions of ordinary, respectable, well-intentioned and always generous working folk just don't have the motivation to organise themselves and fund political lobbyists and manipulate the media. They are not swinging from the guvvy (taxpayers) teat. They have to work for a living and raise their families.

Since Whitlam there are so many professional lobbyists - individual professionals, quangos and NGOs, even Divisions of government departments, that are swinging from the government (taxpayers') teat that the media is constantly filled with their press releases Propaganda paid for by the long-suffering taxpayers who are the targets of it and would prefer hospitals, aged care and bridges instead.

The exasperated public are saying 'enough' more frequently in elections.

Actually I'm talking about the narrow-minded
authoritarian personalities that frequent
forums such as this one. We all know the
type. The ones who see the
world in very rigid and stereotypical terms.
The ones whose concepts are too vague and
sweeping in their scope.

The ones who aren't
capable of seriously discussing the problems
facing this country like the deterioration
of services and infrastructure, the increasing
"casualisation" of the workforce, the growing
gap between the inner city and the rest of
society, the ageing working population, the
degradation of our transport, education and
health systems and so on. The anonymity of
forums of course - suits them to a tee.
Because these types are able to shed
their veneer of decency.

Then of course there's also the underdeveloped barbarians
that one meets travelling home on public transport.
The kind you meet on trains - the Aussie men, off their
faces and calling out abuse. They're not as subtle
as the ones you meet on forums. Drunks, taking swigs
from bottles - so when a young Asian student looks up
at them for just an instant, they snarl,
"What are you looking at, wog?"

And as you exit the train, they're still shouting and
cursing.

Yes indeed!

Enough said.

"Then of course there's also the underdeveloped barbarians
that one meets travelling home on public transport.
The kind you meet on trains - the Aussie men, off their
faces and calling out abuse."

Those hated 'white' men that the 'diversity-we-have-to-have' will dilute to non-existence, eh Fox? There is a word for that too.

Rather than feed those feelings which may have had some basis in poor treatment you received years ago but still foster, do yourself a favour and get your spouse and yourself out of the city rut and out of the State if necessary and do something like this,

http://blazeaid.com/volunteering-information/

Beach, do you have some vague association with the aforementioned web site, and the organisation 'BlazeAid' or did you just Google it up and though you would look rather good hanging them on a post of yours. Did you do something like that? Are you a can do person, or an armchair expert?

otb,

Try acting on your own advice.

It just may help you.

Fox,

That was a strange post of yours stereotyping Aussie men as "underdeveloped barbarians". A continuation of your thinking that Australians are "Nullaboring"* and must be diversified.

*your oft-employed Phillip Adams quote - the very comfortably well off gentleman farmer and faux left cultural cringer (and cringeworthy pretentious idiot).

It's up to you, your choice.

Foxy, <<Then of course there's also the underdeveloped barbarians
that one meets travelling home on public transport.
The kind you meet on trains - the Aussie men, off their
faces and calling out abuse.>> I must add, sometimes women.

You only speak of what is the reality of everyday living in a big city like Sydney. Beach most likely has never experienced such behavior, living the cloistered life of the rural detached, forever in need of a reality check to realise what is in the real world, where most Australians live. In my world I have seen things which would make some peoples hair stand on end. Just the other day a drunken/drugged young woman with a baby (crying) strapped to her front stepped/staggered off a bus, and crashed heavily to the pavement, front first. Ambo's on the way! And that was 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

Dear Paul,

Name calling, stereotyping,
and sweeping generalisations
have been a part and parcel for some in
this country for generations. That is nothing
new. It's part of their DNA.
And of course one witnesses quite a few
incidents while travelling on public transport.
That doesn't mean that one hates other people,
or that one is sledging the entire nation of which
after all, one is also a part. It simply means
telling it like it is. It also doesn't mean that
there shouldn't be criticisms of bad behaviour -
when its happening under our very noses.

At that moment all I wanted to do is get those drunk,
abusive, whining, whingeing, ignorant ferals, put them
on a boat and send them off to sea. Them and others
like them. But of course my stop to get off was next,
and I got off and went home instead.

And this wasn't just a one off situation. It happens
often on public transport in particular.

I doubt those you describe as "underdeveloped barbarians" are what I would consider Australians, Foxy.

I have not had anything to do with Melbourne in years, really not since it became a Greek city. Sydney however I have recently visited.

Both on the trains heading for outer suburbia, & in places like Bankstown, Parramatta & Fairfield, I had real trouble seeking directions. You see none of those "underdeveloped barbarians" could understand my questions, as none of them spoke English.

I had to my mind found a new game. It's called "Spot the Auzzy", & can be played in our larger cities, & in parts of our smaller smaller ones as well.

Are you sure you are describing Ozzies, or some recent blowins or more recently sailins? The mere fact they have conned their way into the country does not make them Ozzies, even if some of our officials have been stupid enough to give them a bit of paper.

HASBEEN, some of those people you've described will never be an Aussie while their 'proverbial' points to the ground - who on earth do they think they're kidding !

Dear Hasbeen,

These ferals were being abusive towards anyone who looked
distinctly "different," as in the Asian student they picked
on and abused
and also they were abusive to anyone who spoke a
language other than English - there was an elderly
Italian couple sitting nearby, who looked at me
as if to say, "What do you do?"

There was no excuse for their behaviour.

I would happily exchange tens of
thousands of hard-working people from
Iran, Afghanistan, and the Sudan, for these ferals
and all those like them. I feel that it would be an
exchange worth making and we would be a better
country for it.

Dear Hasbeen,

You have disappointed me greatly with your last post.
I had no idea that you had that sort of a mind-set.
Either you or O Sung Wu, for that matter.

Actually I am quite shocked and saddened.

FOXY, I regret I've saddened you, but I'm a realist, I've had to deal with many of these people, and some could only be described as scum, nothing more !

Dear O Sung Wu,

Yes, however "scum" does come in all shapes
and sizes and has been a part of this
country for decades:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/late-night-commuters-unite-against-racist-and-hateful-rant/story-fnat79vb-1226618579561

And -

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/police-remove-train-passenger-after-racial-abuse-on-melbourne-train/story-fniOfit3-1227157794733

And there's heaps more incidents on the web if you care to
Google them.

Fox,

You continually 'out' yourself a would-be foreigner in the country that your parents would have seen as a welcoming sanctuary from the mayhem, deprivation and disgust of that displaced persons camp following WW2. By contrast, Sweden, a country so often lauded by Oz leftists and feminists threw its refugee Lithuanians out of the country as soon as possible.

The one-eyed stereotyping, abuse and general sledging of Australians is restricted as all realise to those of 'white' heritage, presumed Anglo-Saxon and from the UK. -From whence we inherited those splendid democratic traditions, free speech and association, tolerance and acceptance that encouraged us to take in peoples fleeing WW2 and its aftermath, and hundreds of thousands since then.

Goodness knows how the senses of the self-loathing, culturally-cringing 'Progressive' leftists are so acute that they can unfailingly and so easily identify the particular 'whites' they love to despise and feel superior to.

It is tedious how you and others take your lead from self-promoting 'Progressive' cultural elitists like Phillip Adams -a bogus, unconvincing leftie and serial, self-centered bore. Honestly, what is with the ABC that it has so many like him on the teat for decades, riding wagons that the wheels fell off years ago?

"How to be a moral poseur - a mere Man of Seeming, blind to the Doing - as demonstrated by the ABC’s Phillip Adams.."
http://tinyurl.com/lsohu8m

You turn a blind eye to the imported (Pakistan) toxic political system, culture and values that resulted in thousands of young girls being raped, trafficked for sex, introduced to hard drugs and hundreds impregnated by their abusers in Rotherham and other centres in the UK which like Australia has been pursuing diversity.

FOXY...

I'm fully aware of all this absolute 'bogan' behaviour, more so than you I'd respectfully suggest, as it was us, the coppers who had to handle this type of racist criminality, and at the same time, endeavour to 'keep the peace'.

It was also the coppers that had to literally safeguard the ordinary working men and women through some of the 'no go' areas of Liverpool, Cabramatta and Fairfield (Vietnamese gangs) and Bankstown, because many ethnic men had established those areas, in Bankstown especially, as theirs, to the total exclusion of even an unaccompanied uniformed police constable, not so many years ago. Personally my own beliefs, notwithstanding an individuals private disposition towards some ethnicities, they need to keep it strictly to themselves in public. That goes for BOTH 'camps' !

So please FOXY, don't try to set yourself up as some sort of self-imposed moral guardian or arbiter, scrutinizing and examining every word, phrase or sentence, to ensure the contributor didn't dare deviate from the narrow moral parameters that you've established ?

It's also within the coppers purview to try to contain inflammatory racists language in public (also a crime) - Please remember, it goes BOTH ways, it takes two hands to clap FOXY ?

otb,

We have been over this ground many times in the
past and you again display your total ignorance
on subjects you know nothing about.

I have no intention of responding to you any
further on these matters and I do not care to
discuss them any further with you.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Yes, I agree, it must have been unpleasant for you to have to
deal with the "scum" of our society as a police-officer.
But as I stated earlier - "scum" does come in various
forms.
It is equally not very pleasant to be abused on
public transport simply because of your different
physical appearance,
the language you speak, of anything else, that makes you
different from the norm.

We need to have a discussion about how we can fix this
problem which appears to be growing according to media
reports, and what we can do to fix it so that everybody
can have the tolerant, peaceful, society that we all want
to live in

Foxy I suggest you don't take your kindly attitude on a train from the Sydney city to Bankstown, or Cabramatta/Liverpool. It would be dangerous to your health.

I would also suggest you don't go to Penrith. Gangs of African youth, some of those refugees & their progeny we have been silly enough to take in, roam the streets, & small numbers of light skinned people are at risk.

It really is time sweaty you faced facts. We have taken in some very disagreeable people of various ethnicity, & many are now paying a great price for others generosity.

It appears that bleeding hearts just can't get through their heads, that the difference between oppressors & the oppressed. Those you have felt sorry for, & want to bring here would be the same as their oppressors, the moment they gained ascendency.

Here, once they learn we really don't enforce our laws with them, they become totally feral, & really dangerous wherever they are in numbers.

Anyone who can not see this, is deliberately shutting their eyes.

Hasbeen, if you traveled on public transport as often as I do, (Sydney's buses and trains most days of the week). The vast majority of people of all nationalities do the following; they get on the train, they sit down quietly (depending on seat availability), they get off the train, end of story. Trouble makers are not significant in number, but they are a problem, and they have to be dealt with, no question. My own son is a Sydney public bus driver, and he tells stories of trouble makers, and not surprisingly they come from all ethnic backgrounds, and socio-economic groups. His biggest gripe is 'smart ass' high school kids often Anglo-Saxon from private schools.

What I can not abide with is this stereo-typing and generalising of people who com to this country, and do not forget the vast majority are invited here by us, they do not arrive by boats uninvited. When you have a relatively large number of migrants like we do, you have to expect and deal with a few bad apples, we got it post WWII with Southern European and British migrants, and we get it now with Middle Eastern and Asian migrants, nothing has really changed, just coming from different locations.

Do you want to reject all migrants because some are bad, or do you want to work to overcome the obvious problems and make for a better Australia. For some, even some who post here, they have an unreal uncompromising attitude, the "Fortress Australia" attitude, which in totally unrealistic in the modern world of today. Australia cannot, and will not, exists in happy isolation. You can forget that dream, it went in 1788.

Dear Hasbeen,

My husband and I are planning a trip to Sydney
towards the end of April. We shall be visiting
Parramatta, Lidcombe, and other Western suburbs
and travelling by train to the city as well so
I shall write and tell you of my experiences in
Sydney on our return.

We've travelled all over the world and been in
all sorts of places with all sorts of people -
including living and working for over ten years
in Los Angeles. We've had encounters with people
of various colours and outlooks - and we've never had
any problems. Most people are just that - human beings
getting on with their lives.

Dear Paul,

Thank You for your last post.

It is very much appreciated.

Hi Foxy, City to Lidcombe/Parramatta on the Western Line is a good service. We catch that train often from Redfern, my partner 'T" has relo's living at St Mary's near Parrmatta who we visit. You can catch the train, and unless your very unlucky nothing ever happens out of the ordinary, and most of the time, the train is full of the so called "Disagreeable" people.

Dear Paul,

I used to know the area very well indeed.
We had friends in St Marys. And Parramatta
was my old stopping ground. It will be great
to go back and visit. Catching the train from Parramatta
to the city used to be a daily exercise. The only problem
in those days used to be overcrowding during peak hours
and the occasional attempted grope from the odd male -
who was soon put in his place by other travellers.
Ah, those were the days and we were all city travellers together.

Wow, travelling on Sydney's trains, sure brings back some great memories ! When I was stationed at Penrith LAC I travelled each shift (except nights) out to Penrith and back from Strathfield Station. Generally speaking no problems, I could bury my head in a book, and I'd arrive at Penrith quite happy. Driving out was both draining and tedious, along the old Parramatta Road, from Concord road. Trains were great I reckon !

Fox, "The only problem in those days used to be overcrowding during peak hours and the occasional attempted grope from the odd male - who was soon put in his place by other travellers"

Groping on public transport was never a feature of Australian life. You must be remembering somewhere else or you were on the train with imports who brought their cultural traditions with them.

As an indication of what Aussies were like, as far back as I can remember coastal life and my family holidayed at popular surf beaches a lot, perves were as rare as hen's teeth and strangers touching women were unheard of. It would have resulted in immediate strong action from other men and women (women were not frail princesses then, that was their daughters later) and a trip to the pokey without treatment for the minor injuries gained in the prior 'citizen's arrest'.

Paul1405,

While you feel compelled to stereotype any who demand that the government exercise all due care and discrimination (original OED definition, the correct one!) in the choice of who can enter the country and importantly, remain and gain citizenship, you yourself admit that some who would enter are undesirable.

The immediate meeting point for agreement is that it is highly undesirable and an unnecessary risk for government to entertain taking large numbers of migrants, or displaced people, where the relevant agencies responsible for checking and clearing them do not have the staffs and intel to do the job to the standard required. Also, corruption and ineptitude must be rooted out.
tbc..

continued..

Both sides of government have form for sweeping problems in immigration policies and administration under the mat, and for making decisions that were outrageously wrong and showed contempt for the safety and preservation of the culture and traditions of the public they are supposed to be serving (and not the the way round!). For example, Amanda Vanstone's decision as Minister for Immigration to allow in a Mafia boss sought by the Italian police.

'Diversity' is NOT a goal of immigration. That is to put the cart before the horse. Rather, it is a ideal for perceived fairness. The government is obliged to prefer those applicants who bring needed skills and confidently WOULD fit in best and be immediately productive, not a hopeful 'could' or 'might-possibly-one-day-optimistically-hopefully-with-police-monitoring-constantly', or 'just-join-the-Centrelink-queue'.

Presently both sides of the Parliament are being pushed hard by big business interests to ramp up migrant intakes to new record levels. That is despite:

- sustainability problems, examples being power, water and the tradition of converting prime farming land and low-lying marsh land (think lost valuable fish production for starters) into housing estates and canal developments;

- high levels of youth unemployment and general lack of interest converted into action to train and utilise young people -BOTH sides of the House;

- overcrowding of major cities and resultant problems; and,

- backbreaking tax and user-pays loads being carried by young workers especially to provide the infrastructure that has understandably lagged behind previous record intakes and the usual over-optimistic numbers.

Young couples are not having the children they want and planned for because they have lost permanent work and are carrying the added load of providing infrastructure and housing for migrant intakes that have been too high for decades.

otb,

Actually the attempted "groping" was done by an
Anglo-Irish man who was well known to the
police in Parramatta. He also used to "flash"
local school-girls as well. He ended up being arrested
by the police - and disappeared from the scene.

I do wish that you'd stop correcting other people's
experiences and trying to invalidate them.
That's so rude.

Australians are a very tolerant, fair and accepting society.

However Australians do draw the line where culturally cringing left elitists continually dump on them and attempt to shove a re-written history down their throats.

Speaking of culturally cringing left social elitists, what is the ABC thinking of that it keeps giving so many of those outdated, self-obsessed poseurs a podium and a paycheck?

"How to be a moral poseur - a mere Man of Seeming, blind to the Doing - as demonstrated by the ABC’s Phillip Adams.."
http://tinyurl.com/lsohu8m

The exasperated, overtaxed public is stumping up for $1.3billion pa or thereabouts for the ABC, so what about some value for that money?

otb,

If we were to judge from your posts alone old chap -
we'd have a very dim view of the tolerance of people
in this country. Thank Goodness you're a relatively small
(granted annoying) minority. But then this country is
well known for its native pests.

Now talking about migration ...

Without migration Australia's population will stagnate at
24 million according to modelling and a study done
by the Migration Council
of Australia.

Australia must attract 250,000 migrants a year to boost the
economy by $1.6 trillion by 2050. New modelling shows the
findings are the result of independent modelling
commissioned by the Migration Council of Australia which warns
about the dangers of medium net migration. The report
says migration is likely to increase gross domestic per capita
by 5.9 per cent and raise work force participation by
15 per cent.

The council says migrants contribute more to government coffers
and draw less in services because they are younger,
more highly educated and have higher employment participation
rates. As documented by the Migration Council of Australia.
(March 2015).

This will be important in the future due to the ageing population
and the fall in birth rates (ABS).

Fox, "But then this country is well known for its native pests"

How easily you always lapse into sledging Australians.

What are the sources of funding for that NGO you quote, who appoints the office bearers and whose interests does it serve?

Fox, "Without migration Australia's population will stagnate at 24 million according to modelling and a study done by the Migration Council of Australia"

I would be very superposed if a study scoped and paid for by a lobby group didn't deliver the results it expected.

On the other hand, independent GOVERNMENT reports find that young Aussie couples are delaying fertility and NOT having the children they wanted, planned to have and worked for BECAUSE they could not afford to do so.

As said earlier,

"Young couples are not having the children they want and planned for because they have lost permanent work and are carrying the added load of providing infrastructure and housing for migrant intakes that have been too high for decades."

It is demand from continued excessive numbers of migrants that is one of the key drivers of increases in the cost of houses.

Now would yopu also like to talk about the impact of large numbers of migrants always choosing to live in the major capitals? Because state Premiers including Anna Bligh, Bob Carr and others have strongly criticised federal governments for excessive migration.

otb,

Stating facts about the "pests" that make up
our society is not sledging either the
society or other fellow Australians. It's
merely stating facts as they exist and are
part and parcel of the society in which we live.
And of which I am very much a part of, to which
I contribute, and about which I am entitled to
have an opinion. You know - freedom of speech and
all that - which you regular espouse - but which
in you mind seems to apply only to you.
You feel free to sledge others - but any other
critique from any one else and you get on your high
horse. Typical and predictable.

As for as migration is concerned - please supply
evidence to back up your claims - anecdotal sweeping
generalisations don't count.

cont'd ...

BTW: you can Google the Migration Council of Australia.
It is an independent, non-partisan, not-for-profit body.
Or you can give them a ring and discuss their report
with an expert. They'll be happy to answer any of your
questions.

<<The exasperated, overtaxed public is stumping up for $1.3billion pa or thereabouts for the ABC, so what about some value for that money?>>

I totally agree Beach, $1.3 billion, and neither you or Jim Saleam can get 5 minutes of air time to push your respective political ideology. Outrageous!

Fox,

That is a lobbyist for increased migration and migrant benefits. It is a small office in Canberra.

As an example, it is presently pushing for the partners of Temporary Work (Skilled) visa (subclass 457) visitors to be provided with training, counselling, development and English tuition to work. What proposals wouldn't require largesse from the exasperated, over-burdened Aussie taxpayer?

As if it isn't pushing for more migrants. Is the Pope a Catholic!

While on that subject, there is already a scam where migrants partner up with defactos who also wishes to take advantage of a free pass to Australia.

Parliamentary reports in the UK and Australia have shown that while migration benefits the migrants themselves the same cannot be asserted for the public of the host country.

Then there is the problem of sustainability.

Australian government reports show that young workers and young couples cannot afford the children they planned for. It has been that way for years now. All because they are already loaded down by:

- high taxes and user pays to build the lagging infrastructure for high population growth that only suits the big end of town and political parties after the migrant vote in swinging seats;

- loss of job opportunities, including loss of the P/T jobs they used to be able to avail themselves of while completing education;

- user-pays charging (taxes) for their education and training; and

- the extra demand of 200,000 pa migrants (plus relatives) and international students ramping up housing prices and rents.

Now you say that your lobbyist wants to increase migration by 25% to 150,000pa!

Who pays?

Amendment

That should be 250,000 not 150,000, an extra 50,000 pa.

otb,

The Inter-General Report provides a snapshot of
Australia in 2055. It tells us that permanent
migration intake which was increased significantly
during the mining boom is reviewed each year in
the context of the budget to reflect evolving economic
and social circumstances. If you were to Google
Australia's Immigration Guides and Information
you would find quite a few websites on the subject.
According to studies and reports - a flow of new
and younger workers is needed to ease the pressure on
an ageing population as the country will need to
support a larger number of older Australians who
cannot work.

Net overseas migration was 224.300 in the year to June 2014
and will climb to 257,000 in 2018 according to the
Department of Immigration and Border Protection's latest
figures.

It is now up to you to get the facts that suit your views
if the ones that I have provided are unsuitable for you.

I shall leave you to it as for me this discussion has now
run its course.

Fox,

You sidestep and ignore the facts and argument put to you and Google for more irrelevant bumpf instead.

However the fact remains that young working Australians and especially young couples who want children are constantly being disadvantaged by, and forced to pay for, large-scale migration.

That is the unexplained reason, the elephant in the room, why there are so many abortions involving young working couples in their twenties up to early thirties. It was never contemplated that there would so many young working people for whom the hope of having the children they want and planned for, keeps bounding away like a kangaroo, year by year. Simply because they cannot afford to have them.

Bring in even more migrants instead you say, a 25% increase and an even bigger load for young working Aussies.

So again, who pays?