Nobody is suggesting these people can no longer live in these remote communities, it's just that if they choose to, then don't expect we the tax payer to continue supporting them

Welfare is a hand up, not a hand out.

Tony Abbott's key Indigenous advisers have slammed his description of living in remote communities as a "lifestyle choice", saying the statement is "hopeless", "disrespectful" and simplistic.

Abbott is a master at supplying fodder for the bottom feeders in our community!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-11/abbott-defends-indigenous-communities-lifestyle-choice/6300218

All adult Australians are free to live wherever they wish, if they choose to live in a remote community then it is a lifestyle choice.

If the communities are Indigenous Australians then they should need no support if they are living a traditional lifestyle, 40,000 years of self sufficiency backs this up.
If, however, they wish to live a European lifestyle then they should be treated just the same as their fellow Australians and receive equal treatment.

Dear Rehctub,

I agree with the points that Malcolm Turnbull
made:

"Can't we have a sensible debate on the subject
of living in remote communities without the
sustained focus on attacking Mr Abbott."

"I'm not suggesting this is anything other than
extremely complex but I think it important we
talk about the issue thoughtfully and rationally."

Those that choose to live in remote country seem to be able to survive in their culture than those that choose to live in town unless they are receiving royalties. They obviously need less dollars than those that live in towns whose culture is a version of corrupt western.

Despite two centuries of inequality, there is always someone who on seeing something they perceive as an advantage given to indigenous people will squeal like the proverbial cut pig about it. Always adding the over rider "I'm not raciest, I only want equality." however the same people are for ever mute on issues of the inequality that Indigenous Australians suffer.

Is Mise - Well put. Why should we be forced to support them.

Yes, is lifestyle choice. Trouble is we do not have unlimited choices. Many have fewer than others. What choice do the indigenous have in WA. Many I suspect choose between living in slum conditions, on outskirts bigger town, or returning to their homelands, out stations or small communities. Many have found the latter gives them better health, less danger for their kids.

Truth is, there are few jobs in either choice.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/editorials/black-homeland-culture-is-no-mere-lifestyle-choice/story-e6frg71x-1227259069379

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/remote-communities-arent-a-utopian-lifestyle-choice-but-they-are-good-for-our-people-20150311-1415ji.html

Unlike you, Paul, I have been privileged to have lived with Indigenous Australians, for some of whom I was the first non-Aboriginal person that they had ever seen.
This particular mob were healthy, happy and didn't need any handouts; they were independent hunter gatherers.
There is nothing to stop today's Aboriginals from living the same lifestyle if they so choose; there are still some people who can teach the needed skills.
However if they choose a European lifestyle then let them be treated equally with others who follow that mainstream lifestyle.

Equality for all Australians.

Dear Flo,

You've raised some very valid points.

Both Noel Pearson as well as an editorial
in "The Age," agree that pushing remote people
into urban areas won't work.

"The Age," tells us that the congregation of
people from remote homelands in town-sized settlements
has proven socially disastrous. Nor do such
settlements become economically self-sustaining."

My borther lives out Kempsey way in NSW and it offers
limited employment opportunities and he talks
about the people who have moved to the are from
remote communities in the past have lapsed into
a despairing existence of living rough and drinking hard.
"The Age" editorial confirms this to be also true in
much larger centres like Alice Springs and Broome.

Perhaps Mr Abbott should have had further discussion with
Aboriginal leaders as well as people who are more
familiar with the problems involved before he made his
comments. It's not too late to still do that now and
decide what's the best approach to take for all concerned.

I think the people who are jumping up & down about what Abbott said
have no idea what they are supporting.
Do they expect the government to provide for a village of say 100 people
300 kms from say one of the roadhouses to have a school, post office,
medical centre, service station, supermarket, baker etc etc.

The more you look at it it becomes more stupid.

'Do they expect the government to provide for a village of say 100 people
300 kms from say one of the roadhouses to have a school, post office,
medical centre, service station, supermarket, baker etc etc.'

u are being generous Bazz. Some communities are far smaller than this and are used only at certain times of year. Those making the most noise are the aboriginal industry that has largely made good incomes from being sent to schools in Regional Centres or cities. The debate between stolen and saved is never had due to bigotted academics and ideologist who depise western civilisation but suck off its benefits.

Paul, every Austrlain has two things in common, that being not one of us asked to be born and, not one of us had any say in where we grew up, as both these choices were made by our parents.

So, if you or I decided to buy a small camper van and park it in some far away location and live off the land so as to say, would you expect the tax payer to support your life style choice. More importantly, would you expect to be able to live you life in such a way, get welfare assistance and not expect to be harassed to at least try to find a job.

Of cause the answer to both is clearly no. So why should these people be treated any different. Reconciliation is a two way street because in order to be treated equally, one must be willing to contribute equally, which is why I say by all means live the life you choose, but not at the expense of those who are working to pay the taxes.

Taxpayer supports our lifestyle wherever we live. Where is the evidence that more is being spent, than in crowded, traffic bounded suburbs of inner city regions.

Truth is, under this government there has been big money withdrawn from the regions. Money that kept many employed.

What real choice do they have in moving. Will they be better off. One suspects not.

Native title I believe is distinguish, if the lose contact with the land.

Let move all outlaying indigenous people to places in inner cities then they can live in slums,partake in crime drink lots and be generally like there poor white cousins.
The point is this kind of city life style isn't even working for us work work work in some dead end job until you die i am sure this is a really good way to live (NOT).
Let take an example of what indigenous do DECENTRALIZATION
Stop wasting money on more inner city roads units cramming people in like sardines, creating huge areas of slums and poverty
Start building up our towns and small cities and watch the quality of life and social issues disappear. The current system only helps the rich (minority)

"If, however, they wish to live a European lifestyle then they should be treated just the same as their fellow Australians and receive equal treatment"

They should receive equal money, wherever and however the choose to live.

Has anyone here found a way to reliably and economically supply all possible government services to communities of 10 and below in remote areas? There must be dozens of them.

In my travels I have seen homes with expensive facilities, obviously constructed for Aborigines who have used them for a time then moved on (leaving what they consider to be 'Whitey's' trash behind them).

What solutions does Shorten propose? -Because despite all advice from hundreds of highly paid indigenous experts no government before has found the answer and millions of taxpayers' $$ have been tipped into the 'problem' annually.

Just over 10 years ago a friend of mine was employed as a tradesman working on a "model" aboriginal village in northern NSW.

It was designed to house 27 families, with brick homes, it's own supermarket, sports centre/community hall, sports fields, water supply & sewerage treatment & disposal, roads & drainage.

The cost to cater to 27 families was a nice round $27 million. Remote settlements any one?

With in 2 years, 6 of the homes were unliveable, but that was no problem, 30% of the residents were living in some of the 72 old cars dumped around the sight.

One has to wonder where you people live, & on what basis you form tour opinions.

Landline 20Nov14 had a reasonable coverage of the subject,

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s4133138.htm

The subject has fallen victim to the usual grubby troublemaking, speculative gossip and sensationalism of the 24 hour news cycle.

ALP leader Shorten's bubbles reflect very badly on him.

The complainers about Tony's laying it out as it is had better shut up.
It is going to get a lot worse from about 2020 onwards. Maybe sooner.
The politicians do not realise it yet but this societies diminishing
returns is about to hit them right in the teeth.
If they think they are having a hard time with not having enough
government revenue, they have not seen anything yet.

It may not just be aboriginals out in the bush looking for bush tucker.

Yes Bazz, I'm afraid I'm with you.

My place could easily fund a nice little highset in a nearby country town, with parking underneath for my cars, an inclinator to get me up stairs, & electric garage doors & front gate to make going out a breeze, & a bit left over for fun.

It would be rather nice, but with 8 acres of black soil river flats, & another 12 of grazing, with a river boundary an irrigation licence & fully installed system, I'm hanging on just in case the kids need to become at least partly self sufficient.

This area is supposed to be very good for growing cabbage & pumpkin. God what a horrible thought.

I certainly hope things don't go that way, but I won't be too surprised if they do.

My wife worked in child care, on visiting an aboriginal family who just moved into a newly rebuilt home in Mt Druit she found the newly laid carpets out on the front lawn and holes drilled in the floors of each room. When she asked why. She was told so that when they hosed the rooms out the water could drain. This is what Government is funding.

I recall talking to a senior Victorian public servant a number of years ago. He was complaining about moves by Western Australia to keep more of the tax generated in their state, particularly of the mining variety.

He said for decades the rest of Australia had been subsidising the West, some years to the tune of over $30,000 per person per annum, and a good chunk of the revenue had come from the Bass Strait oil fields. Now that they had their own mineral boom this was conveniently forgotten, but not by this bloke.

He noted the Eastern States would have been better off looking after themselves and letting the West fend for themselves, but they didn't, because we are all Australians and the money should flow to those with the greatest need.

It is ironic that it is Western Australia determined to close remote communities.

Josephus, I can only assume your wife was government funded at the time. Pray tell us what follow up action did she take? Did she report it? Was it the only aboriginal house your wife ever went into, if not what were the others like, you do not mention that!
You post this short anecdotal story, for a simple reason, it can not be disputed, it could true, but that is irrelevant. What you are trying to convey is the notion "like one, like all". What is the "moral" of your story, could it be; Do not give these people a government house they will only disrespect it!

I to have been into aboriginal public housing, I have been into European public housing as well, conditions very considerably, from very badly kept, to extremely well kept. So can you give me the point of your wife story.

Flo and others, to be on welfare benefits, one must be actively seeking work unless they are deemed as unfit for work.

If one CHOOSES to live in a remote place where there are no jobs, then they should be cut off. No food, no housing, no support.

These people can then make a choice, either stay and live off the land, or move.

Paul, you can continue to bury your head in the sand as long as you like, because that's one entitlement nobody can take away from any of us.

It is well known that many aboriginal homes get destroyed, as do some non indigenous homes.

The main difference is, whites who destroy their public houses, or fall badly behind in their rent get booted out and black listed.

As I say, equality is a two way street.

It is about much more than the dole.

Working for DOCs years ago I used to visit Aboriginal homes. Was amaze how clean their homes were. Could not say the same for many homes of so called white people. Sorry, I am 73 , have been hearing stories all my life, of how Aboriginals treat their homes.

Paul, My wife was in Foster care so saw many wrecked homes, typical of the lives of the abusive parents.

I have been in aboriginal group hoses in South Australia where they were made of Steel and concrete, no wood, as they used the wood for fires. Yet they had electric stoves and could use heaters, but preferred to light fires outside to cook on and sit around.

Their ingrained culture indicates they prefer to live rough. They do not need the same financial support as those living in city communities; who should be treated equally in the community.

Paul1405,
Many aboriginals do not want Western civilized economic culture; you are crying to make them equal financially. If they do not wish to be in our market then do not try to enforce them by hand outs. What do you see as equality other than your gripe about government funding above the rest of the community.

Josephus <<you (Paul1405) are crying to make them (Aboriginal people) equal financially>> equal to who, have I said that?

<<Many aboriginals do not want Western civilized economic culture>> I'll accept that choice for some.

<<your (Paul1405) gripe about government funding above the rest of the community.

Josephus what I actually said was " there is always someone who on seeing something they perceive as an advantage given to indigenous people will squeal like the proverbial cut pig about it>>

That is not to say I believe advantage is given to indigenous people. Considering many are starting from a disadvantageous position in the first place, to achieve equality a bias may be necessary.

Is Mise << There is nothing to stop today's Aboriginals from living the same lifestyle (independent hunter gatherers) if they so choose;>> Is that a reality in 21st century Australia for all Aboriginal people, with so many confined to an urban environment?

Seeing as people are telling anecdotal stories
about our Indiegneous people I'll add one to the
mix as well - as to the kind of people "our taxes"
are suppporting. Let us also not forget it is our
taxes that have helped destroy their culture,
their land, their way of life.

"Australia already has one saint, Blessed Mary MacKillop.
Many thin the second should be a Wiradjuri woman from
Cowra in central-western New South Wales, Colleen Shirley
Smith, known to everyone as "Mum Shirl."

"Over the years Mum Shirl influenced Father Ted Kennedy
at Saint Vincent's parish in Sydney's Redfern, when he
turned the resources of the church over to to caring for
dispossessed Aborigines. Extremely well read in theology
and literature, Ted Kennedy described Mum Shirl at her
funeral in 1998 in Saint Mary's Basilica as "The greatest
theologian I have ever known."

"She had taught Kennedy how to fight for justice. Mum Shirl
did not suffer fools gladly, and quickly brought the mighty
and righteous down from their thrones, often with some
well-placed four-letter words. Before joining Redfern
parish, Mum Shirl had been a prison visitor for years and
she had raised as hwer own more than 60 children who came
into her care. She worked with the Redfern parish to
establish the Aboriginal medical and legal service that now
operate next door to the church."

"The Encyclopedia of Aboriginal Australia, says that her
"work at Saint Vincent's evolved into an informal welfare
agency for a mixed clientele of ex-prisoners, children in
need, single parents, alcoholics and young probationers.
With no money of her own, she often ran her services on
her own sickness benefits...By the 1990s Mum Shirl had
assisted some 6,000 people."

(Taken from Father Paul Collins book - "Believers...)".

Foxy thanks for that no finer Australian than 'Mum Shirl'
I'll tell one tO about Ken (real name) an Aboriginal bloke I worked with for years.
Ken came to work every day, ate sandwiches for lunch, never drank, drove a nice late model car, done his job and went home to his family, wife 2 daughters and son in Sydney's inner west every night. Gee, this must be lies, Ken don't fit the Aboriginal stereotype. let me correct it Ken was a lay-about drunken wife basher live off the dole in public housing. that will make some people happy to hear their verson of the "truth"!

Dear Paul,

One size doesn't fit all. That's for sure.
And the white man has a lot to answer for.

I had a bit of a giggle - on my other discussion
dealing with what's good and bad about life in
Australia when someone posted as bad, the annoying
habit that crows have of
waking people up at all hours with their noise,
and rummaging in garbage bins.

It occurred to me that perhaps the crows
in the early history of this country made no noise.
Two hundred years ago when the white settlers
arrived the crows started to make a noise (speak).
Which could have sounded like - "Get out! Get out!
Get out!" and it's been getting louder ever since. ;-)

Who can blame them.

Sorry Foxy, not quite right.

After settlement people realised crows pick the eyes out of newborn stock, particularly lambs. People had enough sense to shoot the bloody things, & keep their numbers under control. Crows, like many other pests, have multiplied dramatically with access to all the extra water & food in the landscape, developed by our improvements.

Then some noisy rabble minatory convinced some gutless politicians that they would gain a few votes if they enacted protection for the crows, & dozens of other pests, some really dangerous.

Back in more intelligent days busy people would shoot one crow, & hang it on a fence where the new lambs were kept. The crows stayed away, saving the lambs, & ammunition.

We will be doing it again, along with the crocks, sharks & a lot of other pests, when sanity returns to the country. This will probably be just after the welfare system collapses.

From Foxy - "It occurred to me that perhaps the crows in the early history of this country made no noise. Two hundred years ago when the white settlers arrived the crows started to make a noise(speak).
Which could have sounded like - "Get out! Get out! Get out!" and it's been getting louder ever since. ;-)

Who can blame them."

This is not one of your better or well thought out comments. In fact what is that supposed to mean? All the whites should get out of Australia? If that's what you mean, what's stopping you from leading by example? If it's not what you mean, perhaps you can clarify.

I apologise if it seems like I'm picking on you today.

Gentlemen,

I'm surprised that my crow anecdote to Paul has been
taken so seriously by you.

I wonder what your reaction would have been had you
realised that I was merely being facetious?

Gentlemen,

Just to clarify things for you -

In Australian Aboriginal Mythology a crow is a
trickster, culture hero and ancestral being.

In the Kulin nation in central Victoria he was known
as Waa (also Wahn or Waang) and was regarded as one
of two moiety ancestors.

Legends relating to the Crow have been part of various
Aboriginal language groups and cultures across
Australia.

Perhaps it now may make sense to you.

Foxy, you are the one who has interpreted the crow call to be "Get Out" to the white man. That has nothing to do with Aboriginal mythology.

That's the part of your comment we didn't take lightly. It doesn't matter if you were joking, it wasn't well considered. Defend it all you want, I still maintain it wasn't one of your smartest posts.

Nothing changes the reality as outlined in the Lateline report - the West Australian government is considering closing up to 150 remote Aboriginal communities because they are costing too much to run.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s4133138.htm

No-one has been able to put forward any practical solutions that could maintain such small communites.

The politically correct sledging of Abbott for the words he used is frivolous and mendacious, aimed at de-railing the informed public consultation the government is attempting to conduct.

It is a very poor reflection on the indigenous leaders who are wasting their time and ours disrespecting the messenger, when it is apparent to the public that the health, safety and welfare young mothers and children living in those small communities are at risk. Imagine the problems of a difficult birth, or the plight of a child with an ear infection.

Dear ConservativeHippie,

People tend to see the world
from a viewpoint of subjectivity - an interpretation
based on personal values, background, training, education,
prior experiences, political affiliations, and so on.
Everyone will be guilty of some measure of bias -
the tendency, often unconscious, to interpret things
according to one's own values.

An Indigenous person would probably have appreciated my crow
anecdote. And that applies to all Indigenous people
who were conquered by colonisation. Where white
settlers to secure their interests conquered the local
people - eventually seizing control of their lands
and forming the elite in the colonies.

I totally get where you're coming from.

Another difficulty is that mixing or combining the wrong mob with another mob will lead to increases in violence.

As there can be thousand of years of animosity between particular groups.

When are people going to allow this indigenous stuff to run it's course. I mean, it's been more than 200 years for gods sake and the ones on benefits now are barely what could be described as the ones who where deposed back in the 1800's are they. Talk about ringing something's neck for all it's worth.
the simp,e fact is it is not a viable option to continue providing finical support for remote groups, some as small as six I believe. The time must come whereby they either stay out and provide for themselves, hunters and gatherers, or they relocate to larger communities where it's at least a bit more affordable to support them.

This is a problem we have been throwing billions at for decades and the problem is still there. If we ban alcohol from their communities, they move into towns and drink themselves stupid once a fortnight then go home with no money left, often abandoning thei kids in the process.

While racisim is a terrible thing, facts are facts ad, we are no longer in a financial position to simply turn a blind eye to this ongoing drain on the public purse. Something must be done and of cause most people, indigenous or not, who are on the public tit will get upset when required to get off it.

Tax layers in general are fed up with our taxes being wasted, just like these two in Bali, costing us millions and being funded though cut backs elsewhere.

Sorry, but enough is enough and it's time for people to face up to the facts and if you are one who doesn't like it, then dig in to your pocket and help by all means but stop supporting worthless causes

'When are people going to allow this indigenous stuff to run it's course '

Rechtub

why let it run its course when mulitudes are sucking on the public purse by keeping it going. Anyone that has visited some of these small communities knows that the children have no hope of a future. As with the drowning boat people the lefts narrative far surpasses true compassion.

I think Phil Hunt's letter to the SMH deserves quoting in full:
Government policies towards Indigenous Australians are like a bad farmer who invests money in a crop, plants the field, watches some of the shoots come up, then ploughs it all in and starts again, muttering that some of it wasn't growing as well as expected. How many successful programs across the nation have been cut because someone has come up with yet another idea of how to "fix" things, but doesn't put the effort in adjusting it as needed and seeing it through? How long do Indigenous people have to put up with politicians' and bureaucrats' policy whims – or should we call them Lifestyle Improvement Options for Others?

The reason that aboriginals suffer from poor health and unemployment is that so many of them live far away from services and employment. It is not rational to spend 10x as much providing crap services to tiny remote outposts.

Bring the people to the jobs and services and then there will be some chance of closing the gap.

Aidan,

That is easily said, but it is frivolous and demonstrably wrong, just more muddying the waters (and for what purpose?).

Read the reports of the various reviews, paying attention to those from the government's own auditor (ANAO) over many years.

A question for you is how come some communities have been getting it right and blooming, but others are not? How come so many indigenous have completed tertiary study and are doing well, but others do not take advantage of the many opportunities that exist?

There are also those who do very well for themselves out of the dysfunctional system they themselves want to continue and for their own selfish reasons.

At the end of the day it is apparent that some live in a rut of their own making, prepared to live off excuses and welfare forever.

Perpetual victimhood anyone?

Well said Tony Abbott,

You have had the guts to say what a vast majority of Australians
Have been saying and thinking for many years. If Aborginals choose to live in the way of their old culture, cut off from White culture, then they should not expect any help from the white mans medical skills, house building skills
Educational skills,etc. So please don’t complain to the United Nations about having poor health,outcomes and disadvantages to white man and then say in the next breath you reject the white mans culture.

What you are basically saying is these disadvantages are an inbuilt part of the culture (Aboriginal culture) that you say you are living. Your culture never had the medical outcomes and advantages of white society, so if you want to live in the old culture then you must be happy to accept the health and lower lifespan that your Aboriginal culture allows you.
You cant have it both ways, rejecting the white mans culture and way of doing things and at the
Same time wanting all the benefits of white culture.

Tony Abbott is right you are choosing that lifestyle.
And that lifestyle is Aboriginal culture.

It is the white mans way of living that provides all those advantages you complain about not having. A lot of races and cultures are too weak to make it in the white mans world because the fact is the white culture is built on a strong work ethic. Some of these people who run to join Isis are just weak dropouts who find white culture too hard for them.

White culture never became one of the most advanced cultures in the world by sitting around under outback trees complaining.

Yes Cheerful, sad but so true.

Tony Abbott is not saying they can't live where they choose, rather he is saying you can't choose to live in the middle of nowhere and continue receiving support for your lifestyle choices.

Now if the kids are going to suffer, then have them moved to an area where they do have a chance, because saying the kids will suffer just amplifies the poor choices their parents make in having and raising them in such remote areas. Poor parenting is the cause of most unruly mistfit children, nit the children themselves and, a huge part if responsible parenting is having and raising kids in areas where they can expect to lead a decent contributing life.

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end to this ongoing tax payer rort that's been going on for decades.

We as a society must adopt the attitude towards tax payer funded lifestyles as 'no splash, no cash' before there's nothing left for anyone, which simply means an end to the endless gravy train that so many indigenous folk have taken for granted for so long.

We are cracking down on whites who refuse to work, so we must extend this to anyone, regardless of race.

Earning or learning must not be race bias.

Barnett is planning to withdraw some services from the smallest 174 'communities'. They contain 1300 people. That's an average of 7.5 people each. Some would be 'communities' of three or four - i.e. a house - and others might have as many as ten or fifteen people. And many of them may have been abandoned - or at least not lived in - for years - that's common all over Australia.

One 'remote community' consisted of twenty people, i.e. an extended family. It was really, truly remote - gosh, it was so remote. Three miles from Meekatharra.

Meanwhile, somewhere between 36,000 and 40,000 Indigenous people have graduated from universities across the country, with another 2,000 each year these days, or the equivalent of about 18 % of a 25-year-old age-group.

Time for some reality.

Joe

Time for some reality indeed.

The following website is worth a read:

http://www.convictcreations.com/research/aboriginalrights.html

"Government policy towards Aborigines is made
according to race rather than need or circumstance.
Not suprisingly the policies have mostly failed
because one size never fits all. Furthermore, Aboriginal
leaders have asserted an agenda that may be in their
personal interest but not in the interests of many others.
As a result they have divided not united."

So who is the Wally behind that rather superficial, lack-lustre site, Fox? It is a mess. The pen name is spot on.

otb,

why don't you Google him.

Thanks for that link, Foxy. I thought it was quite a perceptive article. I'm especially relieved that the writer could discern that the work of BS 'experts' on different Aboriginal learning styles is racist and dangerous rubbish. Christ save us from our 'leaders'.

Love,

Joe

Foxy, a good link which makes for interesting reading.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth) and Paul,

Thank Goodness you both saw something of
value in the website.

I always find "convict creations," very
interesting and educational. Giving great
perspectives to issues.