.

Dear George,

.

« I do not think Jews need to be integrated into Western culture since they have been part of it for centuries. Also, integration (of, say, the Muslim youth in the banlieues) is much more than just accepting and ignoring Charlie Hebdo. »

I thought I should mention that though there were a few isolated individual Jews in France beginning in the first century through to the fifth century, the first Jewish communities were documented in 465 in Vannes (Brittany), in 524 in Valence and in 533 in Orleans.

Migration to France increased over the succeding centuries as problems arose in other European countries. More than 25,000 Jews either settled in France or transited through it between 1881 and 1914.

Whereas the beginnings of Arab - Muslim presence in France dates back to 716 when the first group of Muslim soldiers crossed the Pyrenees Mountains infiltrating the Spanish-French borders to occupy the city of Norborne turning its Cathedral into a Mosque.

The Muslims continued their advance and reached Lyon in 726. In 731 they occupied Bordeaux. They were finally defeated by Duke Eudes and Charles Martel near Poitiers in 732. Some Muslims were taken captive by the French and deported to the north of France where they settled permanently. That was regarded as the real first Muslim Arab existence in France.

Following that, the expansion of the Muslim population in France was very similar to that of the Jews, both starting roughly from the beginning of the 20th century. The big difference with the Jews was that the Muslims were almost exclusively labourers imported from France’s Arab Maghreb colonies in Algeria and Marocco. The huge Metro tunnels in Paris and Lyon were built by Arab labourers. They also participated actively, at home and abroad, in the various wars in which the country was engaged, including the two World Wars.

Conclusion : the duration of the historical connections of Jews and Muslims with France are not all that different. Integration, or lack of it is certainly due to other factors.

.

Banjo Paterson wrote: "The Muslims continued their advance and reached Lyon in 726. In 731 they occupied Bordeaux. They were finally defeated by Duke Eudes and Charles Martel near Poitiers in 732. Some Muslims were taken captive by the French and deported to the north of France where they settled permanently. That was regarded as the real first Muslim Arab existence in France."

At that time Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages, and Islam was fairly enlightened. Algorithm, algebra, Deneb, alembic and other words pertaining to mathematics, astronomy and chemistry are of Muslim origin and entered our language from the Muslim world. Islamic universities had Buddhist, Jewish and Christian students while Christian universities were only for Christians. In the fourteenth century Islam entered their own Dark Ages. Ijtihad, the spirit of enquiry became limited to consideration of theology, and the great Muslim universities became little more than theological seminaries. If Muslims had won at Poitiers and had moved on into Europe possibly the Dark Ages would have been ended at that time, and Islam would not have moved later into its own Dark Ages. Perhaps the wrong side won at Poitiers or Tours.

Dear Banjo,

Thanks again for the info.

>>The Muslims continued their advance and reached Lyon in 726. In 731 they occupied Bordeaux. They were finally defeated by Duke Eudes and Charles Martel near Poitiers in 732. Some Muslims were taken captive by the French and deported to the north of France where they settled permanently. That was regarded as the real first Muslim Arab existence in France.<<

I am not sure that the Muslim settlements of the 8th century survived as such until modern times, and that they somehow relate to contemporary Muslim immigrants. On the pther hand, the presence of Jews in Europe is continuous since early centuries.

Budapest was under Turkish (Otoman) occupation between 1541 and 1686 and my native Bratislava (Pressburg, Pozsony) became the capital of Hungary during that time. Nevertheless, Hungarians are “proud” that when the Turkish occupiers eventually left they did not leave one Muslim Turk or Hungarian Muslim convert behind (as they did among South Slavs). So if (or rather when) new Muslim migrants come also to Hungary, from or not from Turkey, they will be a foreign element (discontinuous from the 16-17th centiury occupiers) and the question of integration will have to be raised.

Dear George,

Hungary has a different history from what was Yugoslavia. There the Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox all stem from the same people. At one time they were all Orthodox stemming from the division of the Roman Empire into East and West and the schism of 1054. With the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans the upper classes largely became Muslim to preserve their position. Currently the Muslims are the poorest group. Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia-Herzegovina became part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the result was that many became Catholic. The Serbs and Croats speak approximately the same language, but the Orthodox Serbs use the Cyrillic alphabet, and the Catholic Croats use the Latin alphabet. People with a common ancestry kill each other because of religious differences.

"Black Lamb & Grey Falcon by Rebecca West in telling of her travels through that area incorporates its history. It's a terrific book.

.

Dear david f

.

« At that time Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages, and Islam was fairly enlightened. Algorithm, algebra, Deneb, alembic and other words pertaining to mathematics, astronomy and chemistry are of Muslim origin and entered our language from the Muslim world. Islamic universities had Buddhist, Jewish and Christian students while Christian universities were only for Christians. »
.

Goodness knows I’m not a scholar, David, but it makes me sad to think that all that knowledge was neglected and never progressed. I seem to recall having read somewhere that some of the ancient Greek philosophers, Socrates, I think, in particular, travelled to Egypt and found inspiration there.

What a terrible tragedy to see such a brilliant civilisation become so barren. I suspect politics had something to do with it. I sometimes wish I had climbed that tree of knowledge.

And I ask “who is this god who commands mankind to remain ignorant ?”

As Benjamin Franklin is reported to have observed :

"Genius without education is like silver in the mine"

As for me, I place my hope in attaining the sort of education Aristotle claimed to perceive :

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

That is my only consolation – but, then, perhaps I am just kidding myself.

.

Dear Banjo Paterson,

The knowledge wasn't wasted. The advances made during early Islam found their way to the west and helped spark the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Averroes (Ibn Rushd - 1126-1198) and Avicenna (Ibn Sina - 980-1037) were well known and influential in the west. The most common mangrove found around Australia is Avicennia marina named so by Linnaeus. Linnaeus never saw the living plant but named it from specimens what were sent to him. He felt he owed a debt to Avicenna, scientist, doctor and philosopher, and named the mangrove after him. Ibn Sina influenced Europe much more than his own world. His ideas were attacked by the Islamic clergy as Islam slid into its own Dark Ages where they still are.