More or less following on from the Topic:- 'Would we turn to Religion if we were confronted with a life threatening illness' ? I watched a DVD the other day with a few friend titled; 'Deliver us from Evil' taken from a non-fiction book by; Ralph SARCHIE a NYC Police Sergeant. It dealt primarily with the alleged demonic possession of a person who came under police notice as a result of several unusual deaths ?

I'll not attempt to recount the events that were depicted in the movie, as it was just that, a movie. Other than to aver personally, I really don't know what to believe ? Do I believe real evil does exist, absolutely I do, unquestionably. Does this evil manifest itself from the 'devil' to use a theological term, I really don't know ?

Does anybody I've ever come across, in my thirty two years on the job, ever exhibited behaviour of a kind that could only be described as aberrant and peculiar ? Yes I have, one bloke in particular that did seem to have inculcated deep within him, a real presence of malevolence about him, together with the 'quality' of the crimes he'd committed ?

Did this individual 'frighten' me in anyway ? Without question, though not in the traditional sense the 'one on one blue' situation, rather the 'atmosphere' he tended to emanate whenever you're around him. Certainly you'd never want to turn your back on him, not for a second ? I've had to search him on numerous occasions when he was in custody, I hated to even touch the bastard to be honest ! Thank heavens he's no longer in the country, fortunately for everyone !

Does this topic more precisely fall within the aegis of Religion ? Specifically, that of Judaism or the Christian God ? Or does one need to believe in any Religion whatsoever, in order to rationalise this Demonic possession question ? I don't know, do any of you ?

Dear O Sung Wu,

If one believes in the "forces of good," then on the
law of averages - one cannot I suppose, deny the existence of
"the forces of evil." I've not known any really bad
people or if I did I did not recognise them as being
really evil. I have found that people who I may have thought
were bad - could at times surprise me.

I shall have to think more about your questions and try to
go back in my memory. I suppose that basically - I prefer
to see the good in most people - and ignore the rest.

Hi FOXY...

You're always reliable ? Seemingly the subject matter has not attracted 'other contributors', I can understand that, given the 'subject' itself and all that it (might) entail ? I was somewhat cautious as to what the theme might bring in terms of responses ? I was always told, don't 'push at' a venomous snake, lest it bite you ?

Actually I only thought of raising the topic after watching that DVD ('Deliver us from Evil') and the discussion amongst us that ensured thereafter. As you can imagine I've met some interesting characters over time, most were just stupid and chose the wrong path, while others, simply dyed in the wool crooks and enjoyed the reputation that accompanied that label. And a few were murderers, and should be locked up for eternity.

However you occasionally come across someone who simply confounds you, with everything you've traditionally believed, particularly about orthodox human behaviour ? Such was Archie Beattie MCCAFERTY, thankfully now Scotland's problem !

You see, Archie murdered three people, and a fourth while in gaol, totalling four dead. He has stated publically he will kill a total of seven human beings. He has (as far as we know) three (oblivious) souls to go ? He was further charged with attempted murder of his live-in girlfriend while in Scotland, his current residential status is presently unknown to me, as my residential address is similarly unknown to him.

The necessity to kill seven has come, in the form of a message, from his deceased baby son, who's death he blames on medical authorities ? I only wish it was as simple as that ? Is Archie 'possessed' by some demonic presence ? I don't know ? If such 'things exist', probably. I don't usually fear many people, but I fear Archie, tremendously so. I could've knocked him over, with some consummate ease when I was younger, but I'd never wish to turn my back on him EVER ! His mere presence causes me an uneasiness I've not felt with another, I must confess ?

Dear O Sung Wu,

I've watched various films from "Rosemary's Baby,"
to the "Exorcist," to the entire series of
"The Omen," all of which scared the living daylights
out of me at the time. (I did enjoy them though).
I guess we all have a fascination with the "unknown"
the "supernatural," the "paranormal," et cetera.

However, I haven't really experienced anything so
weird myself. I do recall whilst living and working
in Los Angeles I got into a conversation with a
colleague who spoke about a "Satanist" cult that he
claimed he visited from time to time. He offered to
take me along to one of their meetings on a Saturday
night. I was curious, I must admit - but too chicken
to take him up on his offer. Possibly it was just as well.
He seemed to have a fixation with my long red hair at the
time that kinda rang alarm bells for me. Anyway, I would
have had to explain my actions to my husband - not a
prospect that I wanted.

The only real experience of anything unusual was as I
explained in my post on my other discussion - when we
visited the previous home of Melbourne's Cardinal Mannix
for a Charity function - and were shown the room where the
Cardinal had died. That did creep me out. The room was icy
cold and the "atmosphere" in it was very heavy. We were told
that even the resident cat would not go into that room.
I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Dear o sung wu,

You mention Archie's girl friend. Apparently some women are attracted to such creatures. Do you know anything about her?

There are different ways of regarding evil. To some it is an entity outside of ourselves, "The devil made me do it."

Orthodox Christianity and Judaism regard it in a different way. Solzhenitsyn, an Orthodox Christian said,

"The battleline between good and evil runs through the heart of every man."

He also said,

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956

The Jewish view is that the spirit of good, the yetzer tov, and the spirit of evil, "the yetzer hara", fight for ascendancy in the heart of every human. Which one triumphs defines you as good or evil.

I have to admit that when I read that you accept torturing people I did not think of you as a good person.

Hi there FOXY & DAVID F...

Thanks FOXY...

I've seen the Exorcist and a few other horror movies, generally speaking I go to sleep ! Though the Exorcist was quite good ?

Actually it's not quite a ghost issue here, even a supernatural incident, in fact I'm not sure what it is exactly ? It's something I found in a person, so unsettling, so inexplicable, it's hard to put into words ? To describe him as being 'bad' is inadequate somehow, evil suits him like a glove. I wasn't frightened of him, man to man as I said. Though he's threatened me on several occasions, water off a ducks back usually ? But not so with Archie ?

Having told him to shut his mouth a couple of times, or I'd help him to do so, and he did. Though the look he gave me as a consequence was truly eerie, disturbing even. The thought of turning my back on Archie, was a real no no ?

Hi there DAVID F...

Good to speak with you once more, notwithstanding I'm an advocate of systematic and organisational torture !

I don't know anything about Archie's Scottish girlfriend other than he was charged with her attempted murder ? Moreover he was quite a notorious individual, apparently the Scottish press had him in their headlines, the moment he arrived back in his native Scotland. His presence there was not a welcome addition, and I know the Scottish authorities fought to stop his extradition.

Being regarded (habitually), as a 'bad person' myself, it's regrettable that I'm still no better placed, to intuitively discuss this puzzling proposition of whether there exists evidence, there's any intrinsic evil in people ?

While it's true, I've met many who've come under police notice, it doesn't necessarily follow, as convicted criminals they're inherently evil. If one were to troll through the maximum security gaols, you'd probably find no more than perhaps 2% who represent as being very violent, even pathological in their attitude to their fellow human beings ? A massive question, no easy answers I'm afraid ?

I can see this Topic has caused a deluge of responses from many other contributors on the Forum ? I thought it might create some interesting discussion, apart from that of terrorism etc. ? Seems I'm very wrong, there's no accounting for what folks like talking about ? Clearly this topic is not necessarily one of them ? Oh well, perhaps next time ?

All beings have material form of which man has the highest intelligence and the greatest imagination. The idea of demons is pagan superstition and has no body of reality. Human behaviour is formed from what occupies or has damaged the mind.

Dear o sung wu,

I’m afraid you are several centuries too late. Evil is a theological term, and I think that many people really do not believe in such a concept.

Most of us, I think, do not believe in an absolute morality – a morality that is good under all circumstances in all societies. Without that good & evil loses its meaning. What some regard as moral others believe is immoral. Most people think of Hitler as evil. Would they think of him as evil if Germany had one the war? I doubt it. They might even condemn his attempt to exterminate the Jews and not think of him as evil. They would regard the death camps as an aberration to be condemned but not enough to label him as evil.

Even though Lenin set up the gulags and did other nasty things somehow most people do not think of him as evil. He set up the dictatorship, but people condemn Stalin and talk of Stalinism as though that is a separate ideology.

I favour almost unlimited free speech. Any idea, any religion, any ideology can be mocked and ridiculed. However, I think it generally wrong to mock and ridicule a particular person. In my morality it is wrong to mock and ridicule a person you have authority over like your employee or your child. It is not wrong to ridicule and mock a public figure like a prime minister or president. In an authoritarian society it is just the opposite. One must not mock the ruler, and an authoritarian father may mock and ridicule his children.

continued

Continued

In the recent Charlie Hebdo killings the cartoonists were acting as though they lived in a free society, but their murderers had he values of an authoritarian society. Some people have condemned the murders but have also had the opinion that the cartoonists brought it on themselves. Those people believed that one must have respect for religious figures that some revere.

We differ on torture. I believe that we must respect the person of any human being to the extent that we do not torture them. However, that is not an absolute. If there are laws against torture and a person accused of torture is on trial for the offense, a jury may find the person not guilty if they feel the torture was justified.

Dear Josephus,

Pagan superstitions? I feel all religions which incorporate supernatural beliefs resting on faith are superstition and are no better than the older forms. Belief in a messiah, that God is a real estate dealer assigning land to a particular human group and that a divine surrogate can take on the sins of others are no more reasonable than a belief in demons. Pagan superstitions in my opinion are as reasonable as Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist superstitions. Belief in a human virgin birth is no more reasonable than belief in demons.

david f.
So you think if a society accepts evil behaviour it is OK? So in ISIL society shooting children of kafir is OK? So you allow such behaviour. In Islam it is OK to marry 9 year old girls and have sex because their prophet set the example. For you that is acceptable behaviour. You see all things relative to the culture is OK? Human behaviour does not need to change in your world view. What nonsense!

Josephus wrote: <<So you think if a society accepts evil behaviour it is OK?>>

Dear Josephus,

No society accepts evil behaviour. The society defines evil behaviour. The death camps were not evil in Nazi eyes. Their society supported that activity. The Nuremberg trials of the Nazis condemned them based on morality as we defined it. According to their morality they had done nothing wrong.

By the way that book of pagan superstition, the Bible, apparently accepts the idea of demons.

Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Mark 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Luke 8:36 They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.

G'day there DAVID F & JOSEPHUS...

Firstly, I must thank you both for contributing to this little Topic, for I feared initially, by the lack of response, it was to be consigned to the rubbish bin ?

Both of you clearly leave me bereft of intelligent response, when you argue there's no real evidence of the existence of malevolent beings, wandering around out there amongst us ? Personally I really don't know ? I guess from my point of view there doesn't appear very much real difference between a very bad person as opposed to a very evil person. I suspect it's more of a case of graduation, an truly evil person being substantially worse than a bad person ? Or am I talking rubbish ?

Do either of you think, there (might) exists a entity that's truly evil ? I guess in your case DAVID F, you clearly don't. As you went on to describe the activities of Hitler, Lenin and Stalin as examples ? And you too JOSEPHUS, you also refute the notion there may exist some form of supernatural being, as being evil too ?

For this reason, I find it very hard to accept (and I'm not doubting either of you two) that some people are so singularly bad, so fundamentally evil, they can unnerve even hardened and seasoned detectives, merely in this person's presence ?

Another question for you two gentleman if you wouldn't mind...? Why is it then, if an individual is clearly incapable of physically intimidating these tough coppers, yet just being around this person, can cause an atmosphere of unease, nervousness, even fear amongst them ? Why is it so ? It's got me buggered it really has ?

Have either of you two ever been in the presence of such a person, probably not ! Somehow I don't think either of you would spend much of your valuable time, in such social circles ?

Dear O Sung Wu,

We have many examples of unexplained
phenomena. And to totally deny the
possibility of the exitence of malevolent
beings to me at least does not make sense.

We've had people claiming to be "Mediums"
who say they can talk to the dead - and
there have been cases where they have
been able to help the police solve crimes.
We've had paranormal activity in houses -
that people have witnessed, and so forth.

Therefore I don't believe that any of us
can rightly say with any certainty - that
there is no such thing. The odds are that
there is - due to what has been seen and
witnessed and experienced by some people.

Dear o sung wu,

I suspect that Josephus and I might find out we were very similar in some respects if we ever met. I would like to meet the people behind the pseudonyms on olo.

I can't remember meeting anyone who made me feel like Archie made you feel.

One of the factors for alienation in our fragmented society is the lack of a sense of community. If I no longer saw your name on posts I think I would feel a sense of loss. In olo we have a quasi-community.

Hello there FOXY...

Thanks again for your contribution to this rather unpopular Topic. I'm totally confused as to what I believe, I really am. As a dyed in the wool pragmatist I try hard both personally and vocationally to deal with facts. Rather than relying on some esoteric or overly vague notions, and when I do come across something, it's a case of employing, one or more of my five senses ?

Whereas DAVID F and to some extent JOSEPHUS, both seem to have a more intellectual or academic appreciation of such a peculiar thesis as this ? And though I can understand much of what they've both said, and the profound asseveration of DAVID F's, that there's no evidence of the existence of some ethereal or spiritual 'evil' force. I'm still puzzled by the whole affair given, that I've known ARCHIE for so long.

The only other comments that I can bring to the table if you like, is written and verbal commentary by several pre-eminent government appointed Psychiatrist, who've seen ARCHIE on numerous occasions in gaol. Though pages of clinical notes and diagnosis have been tendered into evidence, the one comment that seems to immerge whenever they've seen him; 'he remains potentially very dangerous' ? I imagine those comments are not exclusive to ARCHIE, as most homicidal killers share the same psychological observations and profiles ? In ARCHIE'S case though, he's most definitely a 'homicidal maniac' without any doubt ?

Yes FOXY, the more I think about it, the more convinced I am, perhaps there are some 'evil beings or presence' amongst us, or inculcated 'into' to some of us ? The latter surely makes me cringe ?

For any of those who may be interested in Archie Bettie McCAFFERTY, he can be easily 'Google' should anyone care to read about him and his exploits and crimes ?

Dear o sung wu,

I am horrified by the account of McCafferty. I appreciate that you and others in the justice system deal with such as that so most of the rest of us will not have to.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I couldn't finish reading everything
about Mr Archibald. It was too horrific
for me. I agree with David - I
can't even begin to imagine the things
police officers have to deal with.
Thank You.

Hi there FOXY and DAVID F...

Thank you both, but no thanks are needed, as it was our job and we were appropriately remunerated by the good and decent taxpayers of NSW.

The only reason I cited Archie, I thought he'd be an ideal example, * IF * demonic possession does indeed exist, he'd be a perfect case study ? I'm still very confused over it all ? My confusion rapidly melts away if someone was to suggest that Archie be allowed to return here to Australia - positively and absolutely NO ! We have more than enough 'maniacs' around thank you ?

david f,
The New Testament reports conditions that existed in the world of the first century A.D. so your quotes report events of people assumed by the culture to be possessed. However denouncing evil possession assisted the person to realize they were free of what they believed possessed them. Such views on demon possession came from paganism as Orthodox Judaism did not believe in the existence of such demons and they also practiced exorcism in the form of denouncement. Verification for this is found in the New Testament.

Dear Josephus,

You have it precisely right. The New Testament is based on conditions and beliefs existing in the first century. Slavery and other conditions that we don't accept now existed, and people accepted those practices. Jesus presumably observed the Jewish dietary laws. Most people currently don't, and there is no reason to do so. We are now living in the twenty-first century. Many if not most of us no longer believe in the miracles cited in the Bible. The Bible is an archaic document much of it no longer relevant to our current concerns. In fact some of the admonitions in the Bible are now harmful. In a world where overpopulation and population growth is of great concern Genesis 1:28 ...and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it... is madness. It is far more reasonable to control our population growth and live with nature rather than subdue it.

Much of the Bible is simply wrong. I already pointed out the craziness of Jesus equating thinking of committing an act with actually committing the act.

The Bible in many respects is not a book that it is good to live by.