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The Forum > General Discussion > Vale Edward Gough Whitlam

Vale Edward Gough Whitlam

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It is with sadness I post a note to the passing of one of Australia's great political leaders, Edward Gough Whitlam AC, QC. Regardless of ones political persuasion, love him or hate him, Gough could never be ignored. R.I.P Edward Gough Whitlam

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/former-prime-minister-gough-whitlam-dead-at-98-20141021-1192t2.html
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 8:19:57 AM
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Hear Hear.
Gough made some very necessary and worthwhile reforms, even if his government was just as inclined to rush and mismanage things as the last Labor gov.
The Labor movement used to be about pushing necessary progressive reforms, even when not in government, rather than sacrificing ideals for the sake of power.
What happened?
The greatest defeat is becoming the enemy.
Posted by Grim, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 10:14:14 AM
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Vale Gough Whitlam.

Malcolm Fraser tweeted this article this morning:

("Malcolm Fraser @MalcolmFraser12 1h1 hour ago

Gough Whitlam dead: Martyr for a moment, hero for a lifetime")

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/obituaries/gough-whitlam-dead-martyr-for-a-moment-hero-for-a-lifetime-20141021-11931j.html
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 10:15:51 AM
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Of course the political correctness of the radical feminism that Gough was instrumental in promoting through allowing it victim status would not have allowed him to make some of his changes it it was in its hey day when he came to power.

For instance, Gough's initiative in restoring the scrotum on the roo on the Australian coat of arms, and for good measure insisting that the male roo have the red chest flush of a Red in its mating season (colour coat of arms). It would be construed as an unimaginable 'insult'(sic) to womyn if Gough was to do that today.

Perhaps it might not even be a roo, when the multicult political correctness wielded its big stick as well as the radical feminists of the previous Millenium. Done under a Galah'd (you know, the bottle redhead with the $2Million bungalow) government with her Handbag Hit Squad and Minister-for-Every-Victim-Possible, a doe-eyed camel would be putting its best toe forward for the job. A camel on the Aussie Coat of Arms, tres 'Progressive'! (sic)

Of course Gough couldn't have turned the emu's head (again on the Coat of Arms) from looking far left to centre either. That would never have done. What would the prevailing PC of the feminist-Progressive alliance have had instead? Maybe a gaggle of boat arrivals, with 'their' Centrelink sign arising from over the horizon.

Bye, Gough.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 10:40:33 AM
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Gough allowed my brother to go to University in the early 80's for free, when there is no other way my mother could have afforded to send him.
He is now a very successful electronic engineer.

Rest in peace Gough.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 11:50:18 AM
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Come on fellers, the man was a walking catastrophe, all good intentions, & stupid policies.

The things I remember Whitlam for are.

Destroying the lives of tens of thousands of aboriginals by his labour law reforms.

Destroying the people of PNG by giving them independence about 30 years before they were ready for it.

Setting in train our ridiculous higher education system, so we could graduate thousands of useless each year.

He was about as useful as tits on a bull. Like Rudd, rushing in with policies he was too dumb to evaluate well enough to see the obvious disastrous result.

There are many more losers, who are still paying, than winners from his short time in the lodge, & I see no reason to say otherwise, just because he has gone.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 11:59:18 AM
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Some of Gough's achievements:
* the Australian Heritage Commission and funding for heritage conservation,
* ratification of the World Heritage Convention,
* return of their land to the Gurindji people,
* Aboriginal Land Rights Commission,
* drafting of the Land Rights Act,
* creation of a Commonwealth department of Aboriginal Affairs,
* environmental protection legislation,
* protection the Great Barrier Reef,
* treaties to protect vulnerable species and ecosystems,
* the Australia Council for the Arts,
* the National Gallery of Australia,
* encouragement of the Australian film and television industries including opening the Film and Television School,
* reformation of Australian radio and introduction of Triple J.

Now, before certain persons pooh-pooh these, I would note that the Aboriginal oriented ones were a follow-on from the 1967 referendum, which was carried by a Coalition Government - something similar would eventually have happened regardless of the Party in government.

In general the focus on creative arts and environment was a redressing of the balance since these areas had been neglected previously. It was about time the other half of the population got government action on things that were important to them.
Posted by Cossomby, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 1:15:15 PM
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In response to Hasbeen:

"Destroying the lives of tens of thousands of aboriginals by his labour law reforms." I tend to agree, it would have been much fairer if the laws had been changed so that white pastoral workers had the same shoddy conditions as Aboriginal ones. Why not? That concept could have been extended to all industries - pay everyone what Aborigines got.

"Destroying the people of PNG by giving them independence about 30 years before they were ready for it." Whether or not independence 'destroyed the people of PNG', it would have been counterproductive to try and delay independence to 2006. That would have risked active independence movements (similar to West Irian today), possibly even terrorist warfare and potential involvement by other Pacific states and Indonesia. PNG would have got independence by now by whatever route, but we could have ended up with an antagonistic neighbour.

"Setting in train our ridiculous higher education system, so we could graduate thousands of useless each year." Leaving aside the concepts of 'ridiculous' and 'useless' (PS gone to a doctor younger than 65 recently?), Whitlam's free university education didn't last very long, and since it's nearly 40 years since he was removed, there are just a few other people (on both sides of politics) who have had a hand the higher education system.
Posted by Cossomby, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 1:31:50 PM
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Please let his passing wake us up!
RIP Comrade.
Posted by mikk, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 2:03:40 PM
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One thing's for sure - this legacy of a man of the stature of Gough Whitlam surely highlights the profound midgetry of the govt presently serving us.

(And if "midgetry" is not a word - it should be - as it describes perfectly the present debacle-slash-govt)
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 2:24:48 PM
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Will also add for Hasbeen...I bet you admire Whitlam for providing you with good/free health care - especially with all your heart problems.

Gratitude much!

Malcolm Fraser - twitter:

"Gough Whitlam A great Australian, opening new doors, new futures, tradition justice, fair play, egalitarianism, Australian identity."

Seems he has some grace on such a day - more than we can say for some on this thread (and a few right-wing media mouths and pollies)
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 2:38:01 PM
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Cossomby, your list just reinforces how many stupid & expensive, for no return, things he did, I had forgotten many. He was also responsible for no fault divorce wasn't he, & probably the Family law court. If so he should be doubly cursed.

PNG were not pushing for, & did not want independence.

Aboriginals were being given what they were worth, where mostly the entire tribe were supported. His interference set bush aboriginals back a decade or more.

Poirot, I pay my own way with health.

I rate Fraser about equal to Whitlam, or perhaps a little lower. He did have the advantage of Howard advising him, he was just too gutless to take the advice, where Whitlam was surrounded by ratbags.

Fraser today is of course totally senile, so his current opinions are worthless, as were most in his day.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 4:40:28 PM
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"PNG were not pushing for, & did not want independence." Maybe not in 1975, but I bet if it hadn't happened then or soon after, there would have been political pressure for it pretty soon.

So 'Aboriginals were being given what they were worth, where mostly the entire tribe were supported'?

The 1907 Harvester judgement set down that the basic wage based on the cost of living for a worker and his family. From then on, Australia’s minimum wage was based on what was fair and reasonable - to support a family - rather than what the employer was offering.

A tribe is a collection of families - workers with dependents. so it was fair that Aboriginal people (Australians) should get wages that recognised this.

It could and was argued that the pastoralists were making money off Aboriginal land so should have been paying royalties or rent.
Posted by Cossomby, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 5:22:08 PM
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Hasbeen,

"Poirot, I pay my own way with health."

Not what you claim here...

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12919#223041

"As an old bloke, without health insurance, I don't think our health system is too bad. It's pulled me through 3 heart attacks pretty well. It hasn't done such a good job with a couple of other problems, but that's probably my fault for picking a problem that's hard to diagnose. It's not for lack of trying, that I've not been sorted."

Not to mention - this is a pretty good deal...

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6375&page=0#189105

"After a decade on steroids I am on a diabetes watch with twice daily testing with a little electronic contrivance, & regular testing for my heart condition. On my doctor visits I have to see a nurse practitioner for the sugar count & the doctor for the heart. I pay $31 with my pensioner health care card subsidy.

I would love to pay only $7, but appreciate the amount I am being subsidised now. I guess I will now pay another $7, & I certainly won't begrudge it.

I always go over the $1000 a year in medication cost, & then get the rest free. I have no idea what my pills would cost, if I was paying full freight, but I know it would be heaps. You only have to compare how much we pay for a little medication at the vets for a pet, to realise we are extremely well cared for & subsidised."

Much gratitude!
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 5:38:55 PM
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Poirot we have had free hospital treatment here in Qld since before Whitlam wore long pants. That has nothing to do with him.

The PBS system is also long standing.

Was he responsible for bulk billing? If so that is another disaster down to him. It is another of those things enjoyed by some, mostly city folk, but not by many others.

I remember being accused on here by someone who couldn't believe I pay $58 for a doctors visit, as do most in this town.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 6:27:56 PM
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The free hospital service in Queensland was introduced in 1946 by the Hanlon LABOR government. Probably where Gough got the idea.
Posted by Cossomby, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 6:51:06 PM
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Hasbeen,

"Poirot we have had free hospital treatment here in Qld since before Whitlam wore long pants. That has nothing to do with him"

That's great....but how is that paying your own way?

PBS is great too!

(Bloody social democracy:)
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 6:51:40 PM
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Yes Hasbeen, how are you 'paying your own way' if you don't have private health?
Maybe you had to pay thousands to have care in a private hospital so you didn't have to wait on the long waiting list for public hospital care?

It doesn't matter what the health system in Queensland was like back in the good ol' days, as it is now under the Medicare system, and all pensioners get free public hospital care.

All the whiners should be thankful for Gough introducing Medicare, or we could have had the dreadful 2 tier health system that the U.S. had until very recently.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 7:35:34 PM
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It was Joh Bjelke Peterson, National Party, who ensured that Queensland's free hospital system was maintained for all of those years. It was paid for by the State lottery, the Golden Casket.

So Hasbeen has legitimate cause for complaint: he has to pay higher taxes for what he got for free before and there is a very large bureaucratic administration to support that was not there before.

As might be expected, there was a very long Conga line of suck-holes thrusting themselves into the limelight to ride on a dead man's hearse to win some TV exposure and maybe some columns in the print media. There will be more because the media is always desperate for cheap fodder.

The only person I saw interviewed who demonstrated any principle and he is know for it, was Kim Beasley, speaking from his job in the US and most likely earning the pay of a job that was part of the spoils of service for a political party, and a gift to see him gone as far as the usual Labor factions were concerned.

Respect is due to anyone to achieves eminence for public service and while Gough was flawed in so many ways, one suspects that it was so often the Labor Party itself, its callous anti-democratic factions, he had to fight against most and that laid many of the booby-trap mines that finally brought him down.

It was very self-indulgent of the Parliament, both houses, to take the day off as self-promoting politicians did their thing. I am sure that Gough would have admonished them to get on with work instead. Gough would be remembering the words of one of his contemporaries who observed that in politics, like a one-horse race, you could always bank on self-interest.

To his credit Gough was one of a very rare breed of statesmen who didn't always put self interest first. He is chalk and cheese to the crew who pretended to care for him today, but undermined, blamed and cursed him before. That is politics, and the media too.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 9:27:05 PM
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Labor MPs lay floral tribute for Whitlam

Labor leader Bill Shorten has joined with his parliamentary colleagues in paying tribute to his predecessor Gough Whitlam with a commemorative march.

About 200 members of Labor's caucus and staff walked from the new Parliament House to the old one, where Mr Whitlam served his time in parliament.

Mr Shorten and deputy leader Tanya Plibersek laid a wreath alongside public floral tributes on the stairs where Mr Whitlam made his famous speech after being sacked in 1975.

Caucus observed a minute's silence before heading inside for a private wake.

Tributes left at Old Parliament House may be added to the collection of the Museum of Australian Democracy housed there.

Any money says they sent a staff member out to buy them at taxpayer expense, then did a photo op laying them just when media cameras are present.
Posted by Philip S, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 10:48:18 PM
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My strongest personal memory of the time was thinking it was a bit crook I was old enough to die for my country, but not old enough to vote in my country. Also grateful for the free education, not just for myself but for a couple of mates who came from very poor families but consistently beat me in high school exams.
At least Gough had vision, even if he wasn't too flash on economics.
As necessary as bean counters might be, we still need visionaries to drag us out of the past.
If only we had some -on both sides- now.
Posted by Grim, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 6:57:15 AM
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OTB,

"As might be expected, there was a very long Conga line of suck-holes thrusting themselves into the limelight to ride on a dead man's hearse..."

As might even be more expected, you steal Mark Latham's line to make your cheap point.

Here's a better one....amidst the petty commentary of small minds and small men - and the scrubby brush that currently makes up Parliament - here's what Latham said today in remembrance of a man like Gough - ".....his passing is like a towering oak tree crashing to the forest floor."
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 7:40:46 AM
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Firstly nothing is "FREE", nothing is free! Someone is paying for it and invariably when it is stated to be "free" it will be over-used.
The other thing was the North Korean like ABC coverage of Whitlam's passing.
The worst was when some stupid girl (High school so I suppose around 16) said on our ABC that Whitlam gave women the vote! Not corrected by the idiot headmaster or teacher and we have professionals in teaching? Do not make me laugh, teachers, under-performing, overpaid and vastly too over-represented in Australian life.
Whitlam was certainly over rewarded for the complete hash he made of government.
Posted by JBowyer, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 8:26:58 AM
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Lenore Taylor, political editor for The Guardian
pointed out on Tuesday 21 October 2014 that
Australians still want politicians who fire their
imaginations and dare to be brave. That with the case
of the passing of Gough Whitlam - Australia is not just
mourning a great politician, and it is not just mourning
a long-gone era of great political change. It is mourning
great politics!

Whitlam's death has apparently unleashed a deep nostalgia for
politics that make changes that endure, politics that
transform - not by stealth but by winning the battle of ideas.

Taylor tells us that smart politicians take the right lessons
from their predecessors even those with whom they disagree.

Our Prime Minister, Tony Abbott agrees with this:

"In every sense Gough Whitlam was a giant figure in this
Parliament and in Public Life...It was his vision that
drove our policy then and still drives our public life...
all subsequent times have been shaped by his time ...
We all have much to learn from the giants of those times."

"Eternal rest grant to them, O Lord
And let perpetual light shine on them
May they rest in peace. Amen."

Rest in Peace, Gough Whitlam.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 10:18:47 AM
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There is a lot of leftist 'Progressive' hyperbowl(sic) going on. The media is awash with it but in the cold light of reality that will follow, the man, not some sort of god, will appear.

<Gough Whitlam made a much better legend than a prime minister. No sooner had the news broken yesterday of the death of the former Labor prime minister in a Potts Point nursing home at the age of 98, than the ABC airwaves erupted in tearful hyperbole.

“This country would not be Australia without Gough Whitlam,” said one weeping caller to ABC 702.
...
Gough Whitlam led a chaotic big-spending government for less than three years between 1972 and 1975, reaching high farce in the shady Khemlani Loans Affair, and ending when he was dismissed by the governor-general and lost the ensuing election in a catastrophic landslide. That’s the truth.

But if you consumed any news yesterday you might believe that Whitlam was a visionary genius who single-handedly ended the White Australia policy and the Vietnam War, opened Australia to Asia, ended discrimination against women and Aborigines, gave university education to poor people, and was overthrown by the CIA in cahoots with Rupert Murdoch. In fact the best thing that ever happened to Whitlam was to be dismissed from office, because he became a Labor martyr, and never had to account for the devastation he wrought on his country and his party.>

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/gough-whitlam-a-martyred-man-of-myths/story-e6freon6-1227097994683?nk=c8591f6afc864c5daf05c8396c7699cb
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 2:52:31 PM
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Beach, you just can't stand anyone with a "progressive" bone in their body can you. You much prefer the do nothing, staid conservatism of a Menzies or a McMahon. Post war conservative governments did more damage to Australia through lack of foresight, lack of vision and missed opportunities than any thing Whitlam and his mob could have possibly done. In three years Gough achieved more than the conservatives could achieve in thirty years.
You make reference to Murdoch and then link to one of his trashy publications, with a rubbishy story by none other than Miranda Devine. Next thing you will be quoting Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones and Piers Akerman.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 7:10:44 PM
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It is true that the 'useful idiots' as Marxists deem them would not wake to the progressive introduction of totalitarian international socialism. Then again, it probably appeals to some.

Why should the electorate place trust in the self-titled 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' who deceive by not coming clean about their agenda of international socialism - which is behind all of their initiatives and rhetoric, such as their 'negging' of Australian nationalism and insistence on unlimited (population) diversification.

While on the subject of lack of principles and absent ethics, have the Greens withdrawn their poster of Whitlam and apologised as yet? To think that Labor would contemplate ever getting into bed again with the treacherous Greens and it would be cynical and incredibly gutless of Willie Shorten (aka 'Whatever she says') if he did
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 8:24:11 PM
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Yes, otb....your commentary is a great example of the midgetry I referred to earlier.

No genuine or thoughtful critique - merely a hotchpotch of spiteful and graceless blather.

Not that I was expecting anything more substantial.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 22 October 2014 8:52:58 PM
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Some like Miranda Devine, and possibly Beach, have no idea what kind of society Australia had become through 22 years of conservative rule, starting with Menzies in 1949 and ending with McMahon in 1972. It's a fact that many in Australian society had benefited from the post war boom of the 1950's and 60's, never knowing unemployment and having their neat little bungalow in suburbia in which to raise a family and watch TV, all good and well. On the surface Australia was the ideal society, and for the majority it was indeed such a place. Underneath however it was a divided society, with particularly the voiceless youth, alienated and given no say regarding their involvement in the conservatives policy of war and forced military service, women were very much second class citizens, in employment and in education, to name but two. The conservatives, through lack of action, had seen to it that women remained unequal on every front. Aboriginals were hardly citizens at all, and had no equality what so ever, again the conservatives had seen to that. Inequality was everywhere, but for the majority not to be seen, youth were being unheard, women were in their place, Aboriginals were on the fringes. Yes, an ideal society, for some!
Below the surface there were these great divisions in Australia. These divisions began to raise their ugly heads in the late 60's and early 70's, the voiceless people wanted to be heard. A tide of discontent developed that not even the conservative powers could stop, and Whitlam with no doubt, was the right man, in the right place, and it certainly was "Its Time". For all his failings, and Gough had some, who does not, in three short years Whitlam and his government achieved much, and symbolically that is reflected in the change, at the time, of the national anthem from 'God Save the Queen' to 'Advance Australia Fair'. People today can have their unkind opinions of Gough Whitlam, none can say he was not a caring Australian, warts and all, who achieved much for his country.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 23 October 2014 5:44:35 AM
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Dear Paul,

Politicians from all sides of
the political spectrum have acknowledged the legacy
of Gough Whitlam leaving no doubt whatsoever that
his vision and his policies made changes that endure
to this time.

Taken from the Web the following is just a small
list of the man's achievements:

1) He abolished the White Australia policy and passed the
Racial Discrimination Act, ushering in a new era for Australia.

2) He made The Pill affordable and accessible, by removing
the tax on contraceptives.

3) He Implemented free higher education making hundreds of
thousands of Australians the first in their family able to
go to university.

4) He legislated for no fault divorce so women could chose
to leave an unhappy marriage without being financially
burdened.

5) He helped Australia become more civilised and humanitarian
in its law making by abolishing conscription and the
death penalty.

6) He introduced Medicare to allow universal healthcare
for all Australians. Without this historic reform 1 in 5
Australians would be unable to afford access to GPs or
hospitals.

7) He championed Aboriginal Land Rights returning land to the
Gurindiji People of the Northern Territory. He was also known
for involving Australia's Aboriginal People directly in
policy making and established free Aboriginal Legal Services.

8) Gough re-opened the equal pay case, championing the
rights of women to work and be fairly compensated.

9) He was the first Western Leader to visit China and make
his nation's relationship with Asia a priority. This
decision and those which flowed from it have been
responsible for much of Australia's economic and trade
prosperity in the years since.

10) He established the National Gallery in Canberra,
doubled funding to the Arts, introduced legislation to
form the SBS and created the Australian Council for the
Arts.

Considering the few years they were
in power this is quite a legacy.

Australians want politicians who fire their
imagination and dare to be brave. They want politics that
make changes that endure, politics that transform - not
by stealth but by winning the battle of ideas.

RIP - Gough Whitlam and Thank You!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 23 October 2014 12:49:06 PM
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Hey Foxy, I was out of Oz, sailing during most of Whitlam's time, so I had the advantage of observing the catastrophe from a distance, with the advantage distance, & not having to live it gives.

In your first paragraph I'm sure you meant that many of us still endure to this time.

Your list is eye opening. I must have missed a few, that did not make ABC news broadcasts at the time. I was not aware of the total of the future disasters he loaded us with.

Yep he most definitely saddled us with many expensive daydreams, which still damage our welfare. How one man could do so much damage so quickly, really is a mystery. No wonder I was shocked at how much more I had to earn to live in Oz, when I returned, than before I left.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 23 October 2014 1:07:56 PM
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Dear Hassie,

Our spiritual journey is the unlearning of
fear and prejudice.

I'm pleased that I was able to contribute in some small
way towards that end with you.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 23 October 2014 1:23:55 PM
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If Hasbeen suffered as result of Whitlam's reforms, we can conclude that he was and is not:

1. An Aboriginal or Asian Australian.

2. A woman.

3. A student from a poor family keen to go to university and better themselves.

4. In an unhappy marriage with no money for the legal action under the old system.

5. At risk of conscription.

6. A murderer.

7. A very sick poor person (or have family who were very sick and poor).

8. Someone who has benefited by trade with China.

9. Interested in the Arts.

If Hasbeen had to earn more after the Whitlam Government was elected, it was almost certainly due to the 1973 energy crisis and the subsequent 1973-4 worldwide stockmarket crash, which seem to have been due to the USA and Saudi Arabia, and not to Gough Whitlam.

Amazing, even those who hate Whitlam seem to credit him with superhuman powers! (Since nobody human has ever been able to sort out the USA/Middle East/oil conundrum.)
Posted by Cossomby, Thursday, 23 October 2014 1:59:34 PM
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Gosh, Gough did all of those things in a little under three years? Marvellous.(sic) He didn't just tell everyone what they wanted to hear and spend like there was no tomorrow, while setting up those infernal victim and cultural cringe industries that drain the public purse?

OK, so why then did his own supporters vote overwhelmingly against him in the landslide election that booted him and his similarly erratic and self-serving ministers out of office?

Or did 'Murdoch' vote proxies for all of those lefties as well as being at fault for Gough Whitlam's huge mistakes and excesses?

Gough's legacy is the over-developed sense of entitlement of all of those middle class academics, professionals and bureaucrats who have made hay for years, their lifetimes in many cases, out of government that now interferes in every aspect of citizens' private lives.

As far as Aborigines are concerned it takes enormous gall and re-writing of history to overlook the awful terrorising and harm to women and children done in the communities walled off from media and public scrutiny by that thick black curtain of autonomy introduced by the well-meaning but misled Whitlam.

A better man would have turned around and admitted those mistakes.

What next? Re-write ex-PM Julia Whatsherbloodyname as the suffragette ahead of her time, a highly skilled communicator and internationalist who was victimised and finally deposed by that ruthless corporate boss, Rupert? What about Rudd as the most loved PM ever?

The stuff here and in the media is an absolute joke. One expects kindness towards the dead and in my opinion anyone who is prepared to take on public service is usually deserving of recognition, but there were jolly good and solid reasons why the Australian electorate rejected Whitlam and no amount of tears and rose-coloured glasses can dispel the factual record of his messes.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 23 October 2014 2:40:22 PM
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While I am on the subject, who are these (green?)leftist lunatics getting about who claim that Gough was generous after his lawful dismissal that he:

- admitted he had been give the Big A verbally and in a formal letter [ie that he didn't just carry on regardless(!)];

- didn't lead a revolution (the leader who was having extreme difficulty leading his own party); and

- didn't lead the military in a coup? (as if the military would have had a bar of that LOL).

Honestly, is there something in the water at those green left drinking holes (Green Fairy?), or are they all on crack cocaine (possible)? If any of these fools had any credibility at all they should be up on criminal charges and reviled by all.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 23 October 2014 3:01:00 PM
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Kevin Rudd summed things up rather well with
the following thoughts on Gough Whitlam -
that despite the many efforts of others over
the decades to tarnish and reduce Gough Whitlam's
legacies - they won't succeed because his profound
reforms have become sown deep in the hearts and
minds of most Australian people.

The negatrons and haters don't really matter. Nobody
knows their names. Whereas - Everyone knows Gough Whitlam.
His legacies have, and will endure.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 23 October 2014 4:22:40 PM
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cont'd ...

I forgot to add that history will be the ultimate
arbiter as to whether Gough Whitlam acted in the
long-term interests of the Australian nation and its
people.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 23 October 2014 6:36:38 PM
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Sounds like the clown Rudd is writing an application for gentle treatment of his total stuff up of government.

He must be hoping that by lying about Whitlam's lasting damage, others will lie about his.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 23 October 2014 6:37:43 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

We owe a debt to those that went before and made
this country what it has become - one of the
great successes of the world. This is a legacy
that hopefully will continue with those who will
take us into the future.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 23 October 2014 6:53:47 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

An old Cherokee told his grandson:

"My son, there's a battle between two wolves inside
us all. One is evil. It's anger, jealousy, greed,
resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is
good. It's joy, peace, love, hope, humility,
kindness and truth."

The boy thought about it and asked:

"Grandfather, which wolf wins?"

The old man quietly replied:

"The one you feed."
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 23 October 2014 7:13:56 PM
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Those 'negatrons' and 'haters' must have been Labor and Greens supporters. Because it was their changed votes that swept Whitlam and his self-serving, incompetent crew from office.

When the Labor stalwarts vote in their droves against the Labor government you would think that the penny would drop.

Whitlam and his 'Progressives'* rapidly screwed up the economy hugely, even worse than the 'Progressives' that followed: Rudd ('Big Australia' like Gough) and that Julia Whatsherbloodyname -you know, the one with the $2million bungalow in Adelaide.

*After assuming office, Gough became infatuated with the Melbourne leftist 'Progressives' push, aka International Socialists, and aka the 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing', the Fabians of course.

'Progressive' seems to coincide with social problems and failed budgets, among other nasties.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 23 October 2014 7:33:54 PM
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When it come to knowledge of Whitlam and his government, the poor unfortunate Beach is living on a steady diet of indigestible 'Murdoch Muck', straight from the septic tank itself complements of that vexatious minion of Uncle Rupts his favorite love child, Miranda Devine. Judging by your total lack of political knowledge with this comment "Those 'negatrons' and 'haters' must have been Labor and GREENS SUPPORTERS. Because it was their changed votes that swept Whitlam and his self-serving, incompetent crew from office." Beach you knowledge of Australian politics knows no bounds. Whitlam left office in 1975, The Australian Greens were formed in 1992.
May I inquire where you were between 1972 and 1975, still in nappies I suspect, if you were anywhere at all.
As usually Beach, you display a complete lack of political knowledge, relying on rubbish from the 'NoNews' master, to formulate an opinion. If nothing else you are consistent.

Hasbeen, you have spent too long in that hot tropical sun old chap, no doubt in 72, you were a disciple of the criminally insane one, voting Joh Bjelke Petersen, and loving it!
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 23 October 2014 8:37:29 PM
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You need to wash that crystal ball of yours Paul, although born in gods own country, I only became an adult citizen of Queensland in 1977. I was roaming around the pacific, aghast at the stupidity I saw going on in Oz for most of the Whitlam fiasco.

In fact I was quite anti old Joh until after he lost power. It was only during the government of the ratbag Goss, & his equally ratbag mate Rudd as head bureaucrat that I realised what a gem we had lost. It brought home the old adage, be careful what you wish for.

Compared to Goss, & all the Bs, Beattie, Bligh & the Liberal bloke Bonbridge [I think] old Joh was a top operator for the state, & he was definitely the last decent manager we had until Newman. Newman is much better than all the Bs, but my jury is still out on him compared to Joh.

The real difference between Joh, & the lefties becomes obvious when we see Joh had 6 staff in the premiers department, Beattie 140.

Joh built dams, Beattie ran out of water, panicked & spent $8 billion on pipes & a desalination plant that's never worked.

Thank god we had Joh, & not Whitlam as premier, even Beattie was probably better than him.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 23 October 2014 10:37:24 PM
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Paul1405,

Heh, heh. If you keep going Paul you have to luck one right someday and this time you did. Of course I should have referred to the leftists not the Greens. Although later when the 'Watermelon' Greens got going in NSW I guess that Trotskyists would be interchangeable for them.

Now what about you answer that question earlier? Specifically, have the Greens withdrawn and apologised for that very bad taste poster they put out using Whitlam? Here it is for you,

http://www.news.com.au/national/gough-whitlam-tribute-fiasco-greens-under-fire-over-use-of-party-logo-on-poster/story-fncynjr2-1227098383549
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 23 October 2014 11:34:14 PM
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Beach, another link to 'NoNews'.was it straight out of the 83 year old Septic Tank himself. I was looking for the byline from Miss Prissy the Miranda Devine One! What a beat up, what a load of rubbish in print. I give no credence to anything published in any 'NoNews' fish wrapper, what so ever! End of story.
On Gough and The Greens, many of us Greens were in a past life Labor supporters, nay; as in my case Labor Party members. We have much respect for the moderate Gough, and in the true sprite of Labour we, and only we, carry on the great progressive legacy Gough has left behind. Some from The Labor Party cannot be termed true Labour! they, headed by Shorten, have sold out! End of story.

Hasbeen <<[I think] old Joh was a top operator for the state>> More like a top criminal operating for himself and his cronies aka Russ Hinze and company.

<<I (Hasbeen) only became an adult citizen of Queensland in 1977. I was roaming around the pacific,>> Joh would'nt have copped you! In Joh speak "You, you, you layabout, get a reallll job, are you, you, you, one of those... Labor people, from down south, a communists I would say, yes yes, they are everywhere them them communists emmm! The bloke was a cuckoo. Obviously you believe cuckoo's can run the country, we have one running it now.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 24 October 2014 4:42:31 AM
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Paul says, "Obviously you believe cuckoo's can run the country", & wants to have the harpies from the south take charge.

Irrational or what?
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 24 October 2014 1:15:44 PM
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Odds on the self described 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing', the Internationalist Socialist 'Progressives', to parasitise and take over both the Labor machine and leadership (already accomplished), and the Greens gaggle.

Although what slows 'progressivism' (the exact opposite intent, leftist totalitarianism idealism, to the dictionary meaning of the term) in the Greens is that it is just a menagerie of disaffected, led by comfortably well-off soy latte sippers who like dabbling in social change, as long as it doesn't affect them.

Hijacking the flawed Whitlam betrays the nastiness and complete lack of principles of the manipulators who run the Greens. Is there anything remaining of the original Greens environment protest party? That would not appear to be the case and it is high time the media stopped pandering to the Greens and gave their 'policies' and the dark, hidden sponsors and influences behind the Greens some real scrutiny.

Interfering with a dead body stinks! Only the 'Watermelon' Greens could ever have crossed that line.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 24 October 2014 3:25:53 PM
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In the interests of broadening the discussion.
The following link is worth a read:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-22/simms-a-legacy-belongs-to-all-progressives/5833112
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 24 October 2014 5:39:15 PM
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A message for Beach; "Your snappy black uniform has been cleaned and pressed and ready for you to pick up!" You are totally irrational about The Greens. The Greens like anyone else has the right to show respect for a truly great Australian. All the nonsense about 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing', the Internationalist Socialist 'Progressives, dark, hidden sponsors and influences behind the Greens. Its all a figment of your wild imagination.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 24 October 2014 5:47:43 PM
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I strongly object to these groups claiming exclusive use of perfectly good English words.

Gay was a good descriptive word, until homosexuals claimed it to try to improve their image. They did not like poofter, which told us everything.

Now we have our lefties trying to claim another perfectly good word, "progressive". Another attempt to improve their image, when "long haired radical ratbag", or "watermelon" when they pretended a shade of green were perfectly adequate.

Then we have the overweight. They don't like "Fat", & want to be "obese". I can't imagine why. To me, as I age, & become a little heavier I'd much rather be described as fat than obese. Being obese sounds horrible to me.

Come on fellers, invent your own words, & stop trying to steel ours.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 24 October 2014 6:05:40 PM
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LOL, Foxy, you wouldn't expect any different from your cherry-picked source, now would you?

http://robsimms50shadesofgreen.com/

Maybe both you and Paul1405 might stop avoiding the subject and comment on the lack of ethics and sheer gall of the Greens using Gough Whitlam after death?

Not something the Greens might have tried while he was still alive and in command of his faculties though.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 24 October 2014 6:12:04 PM
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Dear OTB,

Actually I don't "cherry-pick," my articles.
Unlike you -
I choose them for their content and information.

BTW - The Greens were not formed as a Party until
1992 - long after Gough Whitlam's exist from
politics.

What the Greens are trying to apprently do today is
follow many of
Whitlam's legacies which by the way - belong to all Australians.
And that's something of which we can all be proud.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 24 October 2014 7:12:55 PM
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Foxy, thanks for that article from 'The Drum'. My two greatest political hero's in Australia are Gough Whitlam and Jack Lang, both Labor, Lang was expelled from the party for many years but never gave up his Labour principles. Naturally if I had to say three Bob Brown would come into my calculations as well. P/s I also have a very high opinion of John Gorton from The Liberal Party.
Beach who in Australian politics do you admire? Now let me see...
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 24 October 2014 9:02:36 PM
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Dear Paul,

One can't help but admire Gough Whitlam - his
achievements during such a short time and the
legacy he's left us is really quite remarkable.
So many Australians benefited from these
achievements. And still are to this day.

Thanks for this discussion. It's been quite revealing
in more ways than one.

See you on another thread.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 October 2014 6:09:44 AM
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One becomes weary of otb's particular brand of midgetry...like some whining sneering great aunt of right-wing persuasion who's battened down the hatches and ensconced in her "upright" chair of indignation and sour-faced ridicule.

Not happy to merely put the boot into Gough...he's now getting his jollies from maligning the Greens in their celebration of him....thrills for the scanty intellect?

"For three years Gough Whitlam risked his life climbing into the sky where other men wanted to kill him. He fought against the Japanese as a navigator and bomb aimer with the RAAF's Number 13 Squadron, which flew slow, under-armed Bristol Beauforts and later the American-made Lockheed Venturas as long-range maritime strike aircraft.

Perhaps, like Keith Miller, the test cricketer and fellow air force veteran who famously scoffed at the idea of there being any real pressure in sport – "pressure is a Messerschmitt up your arse" – Whitlam took some perspective from those years."

"In this nasty, brutish but ultimately small and squalid era of politics, when image consultants are forever tucking prime ministers and would-be prime minsters into flack jackets and fighter bombers to gird their image in martial armour, we are well served by remembrance of a man who, like the Liberal's John Gorton, volunteered and fought his good fight and then moved on; a creator at heart, not a destroyer."

"Edward Gough Whitlam protected his country from the predations of Imperial Japan. He did not climb into those flying coffins for a sound grab and a photo-op. But having played his small, individual role in that great struggle, he went on to protect us from the creeping threats which come upon a nation without the great alarums of war."

"Poverty, ignorance, bigotry, inequality, the closing of minds, the entrenching of privilege and power, all of these he fought against. He fought for us."

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/economist-disarms-gough-whitlams-sneering-detractors-20141023-11alm7.html#ixzz3H6JdQ5jY

No wonder the Greens laud him - compared to the puny, myopic and self-aggrandising conduct of the present administration - and mirrored by the likes of otb - Whitlam's legacy is beyond compare.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 October 2014 7:44:08 AM
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Dear Poirot,

Thank You for the link and your comments.

You've expressed what many of us are feeling
at this time.

There will always be people
on the internet and public forums such as this
one, who one would not associate with normally
in our daily life. People who simply can't help
themselves and insist on broadcasting the failings
of others with a vengenance, while trying to
trash their achievements.
And, you're right - it is a rather small and mean thing to
do, especially - when a person has died and
their achievements by far - outnumber their failings.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 October 2014 10:42:05 AM
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Come off it Poirot, if all it takes to win your long lasting admiration is a bit of defence effort, you are missing giving it to a few others around here.

Some of us did not even need a bloody war to be prepared to defend this country.

Looking at what it has become, to some extent because of Whitlam & his like, I have to wonder if it was worth it, & am very glad my son has resigned. I don't think the place & it's values is worth defending as it is today.

I really do find it amazing that the most easily deceived are the most rabid in defending the incompetents.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 25 October 2014 11:02:15 AM
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"Come off it Poirot, if all it takes to win your long lasting admiration is a bit of defence effort, you are missing giving it to a few others around here."

Ahem...Hasbeen - the point was that Whitlam didn't feel the need to serially wrap a jet fighter around him or rattle his saber for a photo shoot and a bit of right-wing newsprint, unlike the try-hard "shirt-front"-threatening dope currently leading the nation.

Whitlam didn't trumpet his military role and his exploits like some around here who spend much time and effort megaphoning their achievements in this area.

I'd stand Whitlam and his govt's achievements against the witless Abbott, his prancing machismo and his dud myopic government any day.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 October 2014 12:14:21 PM
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Re Hasbeen's objections to "these groups claiming exclusive use of perfectly good English words."

So Hasbeen wants people to put up with the derogatory names he labels them with. But they want to chose what words they call themselves.

Aren't they outrageous! What a sense of entitlement to want to chose themselves! Anyone would think this is free country!

Hasbeen, the words of English aren't exclusively yours. They belong to everybody, even people you don't like. Tough titty
Posted by Cossomby, Saturday, 25 October 2014 12:24:33 PM
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What has not been explained is why leftist and Labor voters fled in their droves from Whitlam and the landslide against him threw Gough and his crew out on their ears. Not even one term and out forever!

You'd think that a PM who is being lauded as 'adored by the people', 'achieved everything that really mattered' and was the 'father of modern Australia' would have been invited back by the Australian public to serve longer than five minutes.

Perhaps some here need to return to the newspapers of the time where scarcely a day went by without some major scandal and stuff-up by the Whitlam government.

BTW, whatever became of 'Mr Monkey Nuts', Khemlani (The Loans Affair, 1974-75)?
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 25 October 2014 2:49:30 PM
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Once again OTB comes back with more of the same.
No surprises there of course.
Broadcasting the failings instead of the achievements
of a truly great politician and leader and blaming
Gough for what occurred when if OTB had bothered to get
the evidence and facts of the time - he would have
been aware of the sinister intrigue that went on behind
The Dismissal of the Whitlam Government and the results
that followed from it.

"Anatomy of a Coup," would be worth a read for those who
want to find out more of the events of the time. Written by
Stephen Foley and Marshall Wilson. It debunks the myth that
Labor was a victim of its own ineptitude and makes for
compulsive reading for anyone who believes exposure is the
most effective check against the abuse of power.

But enough said. OTB is not interested and won't be fazed by
evidence or bothered at all by the facts.

Enough said.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 October 2014 3:53:02 PM
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Neither did Gorton.

When are you going to swoon over him.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 25 October 2014 4:03:49 PM
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Foxy,

The evidence is that leftist and Labor voters fled in their droves from Whitlam and the resulting landslide loss of seats threw Gough and his crew out on their ears.

You and some others here do not accept the democratic decision of the people. You will never accept the decision of the people last federal election either and were laying in the boot before the new PM visited Government House.

That IS true, isn't it? That you and the leftist 'Progressives' are totalitarians who are against democracy because you presume to always know better than the voters who should be in power. That goes with your demands for restrictions on free speech. It is called totalitarianism.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 25 October 2014 4:42:25 PM
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otb,

"You and some others here do not accept the democratic decision of the people. You will never accept the decision of the people last federal election either and were laying in the boot before the new PM visited Government House."

Oh yes, deary...we accept the decision. we also accept that if the Australian electorate had had one iota of an inkling as to what the Abbott Govt's "real" agenda was...then haw haw, do ye reckon they would have won?

And now - even after Tone's terror hysteria, his MH17 chest-beating, his "shirt-front" rubbish...every stoopid macho stunt he's pulled, the LNP is still around 9% points behind in most polls.

"That IS true, isn't it? That you and the leftist 'Progressives' are totalitarians who are against democracy because you presume to always know better than the voters who should be in power. That goes with your demands for restrictions on free speech. It is called totalitarianism."

Lol!....democracy depends on the prospective govt to tell the "truth" in the lead up to the election...not to deliberately set out to misrepresent their agenda and to dupe the electorate wholesale.

They wouldn't have seen the light of day if they hadn't hidden their agenda.

Now we know - and apart from their incompetence, all they've got is an awkward bumbling clown shouting at clouds, who jumps on the bandwagon of every tragedy, which he greets an as opportunity to pump up his machismo and his electability.

What's that about "free speech"?

We now have laws to shut up journalists if they write something that the govt doesn't like"....and stupidly supported by Labor.

That's what your "we love freedom of speech" govt has actuated.

What a joke....what they really wanted is "freedom to be a bigot" - instead we got "Let's lock up journos who give the game away"
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 October 2014 5:04:33 PM
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I'll just add for otb's benefit...

Remember the journalist Peter Greste - locked up in an Egyptian prison with a sentence of 7 years for doing his job.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/peter-greste-jailed-in-egypt/5543292

"Australian journalist Peter Greste and two of his Al Jazeera colleagues have been found guilty by an Egyptian court of spreading false news and supporting the blacklisted Muslim Brotherhood.

Greste and Mohamed Fahmy were sentenced to seven years in jail by a judge and Baher Mohamed was sentenced to 10 years. Three other journalists who were tried in absentia were handed 10-year sentences.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said the Australian Government was "shocked" by the verdict and "appalled by the severity of it".

Ms Bishop said the Government would be in contact with the new Egyptian government about whether there is any way for it to intervene."

"Appalled by the severity of it" - no less!

If he'd done the same thing in Australia and the presiding govt took a dim view of it, under the wonderful new laws - he'd be up for a possible 10 year sentence.

Ah - the Abbott govt...custodians of our freedoms - Lol!
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 October 2014 5:29:30 PM
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Once again, the evidence is that leftist and Labor voters fled in their droves from Whitlam and the resulting landslide loss of seats threw Gough and his crew out on their ears.

The Whitlam government was chaotic and led by an international tourist who loved to strut the world stage, a penchant enjoyed by the other 'Big Australia' egoist who left a Ruddy mess as well, and by Julia Whatsherbloodyname, who went one further throwing away even larger gifts of taxpayers $$ wherever she went internationally (but she was parsimonious where the Brisbane floods were concerned).

It must be that International Socialism of the political 'Progressives', Whitlam, Kevin707Rudd and Ms Julia Whatsherbloodyname (you know, the one with the $2million bungalow in SA), that causes them to spend so much time overseas in the guvvy jet visiting the top celebrity tourist spots of the world and staying in Deluxe/Luxury hotels. Much better than Darwin after Tracy and Brisbane after the floods, where a fleeting look-in is followed by a prompt return to the world tour.

A bigger man than Gough Whitlam would have apologised for his own flaws and mistakes and the poor record of his government.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 25 October 2014 6:23:24 PM
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Dear Poirot,

Again - the usual corrosive acids from the mouth
of OTB. He simply can't help himself.
Note also the usual tactics of references to
Totalitarianism (I wonder if he even knows what
that means). Next it will be the usual Fabians,
et cetera. That's all he's got. Same old, same old.
Nothing to knew to see or read. Yawn!
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 25 October 2014 6:36:47 PM
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Ye gods, the ignorance of some Labor voters.

Gough Whitlam WAS president of the Fabian Society of Victoria. Of course with his mighty ego he could have supposed that the society was in fact gathered around him.

Australians have always had a suspicion of those who spruik one story up-front, but behind that are secretly sworn to serve another interest.

The leftist womyn's EMILY's Listers (Australia) are the same, they do not advertise their allegiance to the ideology of Emily's List and their undertaking to advance its interests and one another. Among other things that is called favouritism, but there are more harsh words for it.

Secret societies and secret deals - of course the public are right to wonder why they don't come out front and form the International Socialist Party, or the EMILY's Listers Party, or the X, Y, Z Faction Party.

The public can only speculate what interests, what lobbyists and what behind the scenes deals, some ages old, affect the decisions of Labor leaders. Faceless men and faceless womyn.

One thing is for sure though, 'Progressives' sure like to use that 'progressive' word, for them it is the secret handshake, "A nod is as good as a wink, we're all for International Socialism aren't we and behind us are the 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' directing our every effort'".
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 25 October 2014 8:17:52 PM
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The majority of Australians have placed their bets on "Australia's Best PM", with little Jonny Howard already past the post by several leangths.

Meanwhile the progressive left is running a book on "Australia's Worst PM". Whitlam/Rudd/Gillard seem to qualify on the basis that they never won a second term and we're all flogged by the electorates. I seems that Australian's are not dumb at all.

Can't wait to see which one finally gets cheered as last past the post !
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 26 October 2014 6:00:06 AM
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Foxy,

Indeed.....and note he loses points also in his latest offering for dragging out the "womyns" - and even more points for "EMILY's Listers".

Boring, boring, boring.....

Get a load of the dingbattery and total incompetence that reigns supreme with the latest LNP shemozzle:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-25/ama-criticises-australias-ebola-response-as-chaotic/5841878

"The Federal Government's response to the Ebola crisis has been chaotic, the Australian Medical Association (AMA) says.

AMA president Professor Brian Owler said the Government was keeping Australians in the dark about their plans and medical professionals wanted a coherent plan to tackle the crisis in West Africa and at home, in case Ebola spreads.

The Federal Health Department this week said that there were about 20 caseworkers trained to care for potential Ebola patients.

But Professor Owler said neither the AMA nor the chief health officer knew who they were or what sort of Ebola training they were being given.

"It's not the AUSMAT (Australian Medical Assistance) teams that you would expect would be trained to do this work," Professor Owler said.

"Who are these people? If anything is going to be irresponsible it would be a last-minute announcement about people who are ill-equipped or ill-trained to go and do this dangerous work".

He has also called on the Government to announce what it is going to do to help tackle the "humanitarian crisis" overseas and what the plans are if a potentially infected person arrives in Australia."

Do Nuttin' Dutton...does nuttin'.

I suppose we should sit back and enjoy the show.....we'd have to go a long way and pay big money to see such incompetence rolled out under the guise of "government".
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 26 October 2014 7:02:09 AM
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Dear Poirot,

It will be interesting indeed to see how history
will judge what's currently happening in our political
arena and which labels apply to whom. It's always
sadly been the case in this country that the choices
we've had were between those who couldn't learn from
the past and those who couldn't stop living in it.
And then along came Gough Whitlam.

As for OTB and his usual labelling and ranting
- two words aptly apply:

"So what?"
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 26 October 2014 8:31:55 AM
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‘morning Poirot,

I’m sure that any response to this comment will, just like Foxy, be to offer a “thank you” for all that attention, it won’t be meant of course. Then there will be more of the same squawking, ranting, platitudes, feigned kindness, socialized facts, links to progressive media and blogs, all followed by even more rhetoric.

I can say this with confidence because there is nothing left in the locker except more of the same.

There has been an increase in the public exposure of progressives in the last 12 months and I’ve done my fair share of this. One thing progressives hate most is public exposure. Judging by some of the comments here, the number of people who really do understand progressives is now growing.

Just for the record I again define the adopted “benign” term progressives to mean Communists, Marxists, Greens, Deep Greens, Socialists, anarchists, Fabians etc. Basically those who inherently do not feel comfortable with capitalism or democracy.

Democracy is often claimed to be supported of course, but only for the purpose of asserting that those who are actually democratic, don’t know how to apply democracy properly and should leave it to progressives !

Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome is a hallmark. This is because the entire world in which progressives exist is founded upon rhetoric and, in most cases it is borrowed from the “self referential network”. As a direct consequence of this the arts of critical thinking, self examination, logic, reason and rationality have been lost. QED, more and more rhetoric must be obtained from the network, this “more of the same” results in an exponential decline in both relevance and credibility.

This explains progressive frustration, squawking and ranting. Not to mention the propensity for pointing the finger at others over the things for which they are also guilty, that I think is called hypocrisy?

It is truly delightful to see you and your fellow progressives trying to deal with an issue you can’t even see, let alone respond to.

Long may your rhetoric echo in the darkness.
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 26 October 2014 8:48:47 AM
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I have a wonderful idea.

Lets give permission for those members of the AMA, & other loudmouths, who want us to do more about the Ebola outbreak to travel to the site of the problem, & do what ever they want to do, at their own expense of course.

Those who don't want to go, or pay their own way to go, should shut up, as obviously they are only looking for the usual watermelon type point to criticise.

Any who do go should not be allowed to return until the thing has totally worn out. Most Ozzies are not interested in do-gooders bringing the thing back here.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 26 October 2014 9:10:24 AM
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If the 'progressives' are so bad, why is it that the 'non-progressives' have always been prepared the accept the benefits that the 'progressives' have achieved - better wages and conditions, health care etc. ?

To modify a current slogan, 'if you don't love what the 'progessives' have done, go back to the 19th century' - no fair pay, child labour, old age in the poor house etc.

Like other young people who voted for Whitlam in 1972, I had never known anything but conservative government and the social changes he brought were long-overdue.

I have one strong memory of 1972 - my surprise (well, I was young) at the outrage of conservatives at losing. That was my first experience of the sense of entitlement - we conservatives are the rightful people to govern! Some posts above talk about Green, left-wing sense of entitlement - I don't see that at all - entitlement is really something very much of the right-wing ruling class mentality. Labor/progressives never really expect to win elections - probably why, when they do, they try and do to much too fast.

The lesson I take away from the Whitlam era is that it's not good for one side to be in power for too long - when they are inevitably replaced, the newcomers will be keen to get things done fast (because they have no sense of entitlement that they will stay long), but have inadequate experience.

Also interesting that Labor tends to get in when the world economy is on the rocks, and then gets blamed for the result. A similar thing happens with women politicians in Australia - things go bad, so put a women in charge, things don't get better fast, blame the woman.
Posted by Cossomby, Sunday, 26 October 2014 9:15:18 AM
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Hi Hasbeen. You are truly naïve.

If the do-gooders don't go and try to stop it there, it'll come and get you here anyway!

If the do-gooders in MSF had been listened to last March when they begged the WHO to take action, then it wouldn't have got so far already.

PS MSF - Medecin sans frontiers. WHO - Word Health Organisation.
Posted by Cossomby, Sunday, 26 October 2014 9:21:33 AM
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Dear spindoc,

Again with the labels. Do you guys ever come up
with anything original? Accusing us of being against
democracy and capitalism - is ludicrous - considering
the fact that my parents ended up in this country as a
result of their fleeing a totalitarian regime. Also
simply because our views don't happen to agree with yours
doesn't make us anti-democracy or anti-capitalism. We're
anti misinformation, and prefer evidence and facts to
slogans and rhetoric. Therein lies the difference between
us.

A historian can establish that an act took place on a certain
day, but this, by historical standards constitutes only chronology
or "factology." The moment that the historian begins to
look critically at motivation, circumstances, context, or any
other considerations, the product becomes unacceptable for
one or another group of readers. Accusations of "cherry-picking"
abound, or worse - accusations of questionable
sources are raised. People such as yourselves,
who seem to be locked in a mental prison, are not interested in
explanations - to you explanations seem tantamount to excusing.
And of course this leads to the questionable practice of
stereotyping people - as we can see from your posts.

We can also see your reluctance to modify your judgements,
your continued resorting to stereotyping (which encourages
counter-stereotyping) and the result is a total breakdown
in communication.

That's seems to be the norm amongst posters on this forum.
And probably the reason that so many have left. And others
tend to begin to limit their visits.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 26 October 2014 9:33:50 AM
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Hasbeen,

"Any who do go should not be allowed to return until the thing has totally worn out. Most Ozzies are not interested in do-gooders bringing the thing back here."

Lol!....okay, we give in...you take the prize for the most blatant example of ignorance on OLO this year!

Are you really that dumb...or just pulling our leg?

You do realise that virises like Ebola are much better tackled at the source. They are much better tackled when "rich" countries put in the money and effort to eradicate the problem before it spreads.

The reason this got out of hand is that those areas initially affected were way under resourced to confront such a problem...and WHO, which has suffered major budgetary cuts, dragged its heels.

Once it reached urban areas, it was always going to be major threat.

And even at this juncture, you appear to believe that it's "over there" and no threat to western countries.

Naive is too mild a word for your ignorance...although I suspect you're not that "ignorant" - you're just adhering to your usual spiel that anything you disapprove of you can dismiss and it will go away.

Well, it might work with your usual targets...but methinks a virus will just carry on regardless.

Your type would be the first to barricade themselves if it ever does manage to do what it realistically could do....the quintessential evader who chooses to patch his roof once the storm has arrived.

Good luck with that : )
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 26 October 2014 10:26:19 AM
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‘morning Foxy,

Excellent, I just knew you would tick all the boxes. What was it I said about struggling with a problem you don’t even see, let alone respond to?

@Foxy : “Accusing us of being against, democracy and capitalism” You see Foxy, you didn’t actually READ my post did you, you just FELT it.

What I said was, “those who inherently do not feel comfortable with capitalism or democracy”. Get it? Facts get turned into emotive rhetoric.

@Foxy; “considering the fact that my parents ended up in this country as a
result of their fleeing a totalitarian regime”.

Love it. So you “ended up in this country”. Oh dear, “ended up”? OK insult accepted, thanks Foxy.

What you really mean was your parents were graciously and openly welcomed to our fine country? In the end it is just rhetoric as there can be no correlation between leaving a totalitarian state to come here and your current politics. Otherwise we wouldn’t have domestic terrorists who were born here after their parents likewise sought refuge from a totalitarian regime would we?

See what I mean about rhetoric? It just collapses when you actually think it through.

As for the “padding” (Unicorns) in the middle, A historian blah blah, chronology blah, or "factology", blah blah, historian looking critically at motivation, circumstances, context, blah blah (pure socialization), people such as yourselves, locked in a mental prison, blah, blah freaking blah.

Foxy, do you ever read what you have written or does the emotion of the moment just spill out onto keyboard?

Cont’d
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 26 October 2014 11:10:25 AM
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Cont’d

This brings me to the “socialization” of issues. Your perspective is that we are not interested in your “explanations”.

May I respectfully remind you that you have never actually explained anything on OLO. All you do is socialize your borrowed perspective.

The socialization approach to the philosophy, history, politics and science has become distressingly familiar.

The socialization advocates promote the abandoning of the idea any topic as a separate domain of activity or enquiry, they promote that each topic must be understood not as a means of acquiring objective general truths about the world but simply as another form of social behaviour !

And you accuse me of “stereotyping” you? My God you've got brass I’ll grant you that
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 26 October 2014 11:12:13 AM
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Beach shows his total lack of political knowledge, again << Not even one term and out forever!>> Whitlam won a first term December 5th 1972 leading the 28th Australian parliament, he then won a second term May 18th 1974 being the 29th Commonwealth Parliament of Australia.
<< Gough Whitlam WAS president of the Fabian Society of Victoria.>> so bloody what! Better than being two IC to a lunatic Nazi holding meetings in a damp basement in Tempe. Ah Beach!
If you are going to continually refer to "Newspapers" please discard those dirty old copies of Murdoch's 'Daily Horror' from 72 to 75 and get some real news. I ask again where were you from 1972 to 1975. A twinkle in daddy's eye? On second thoughts keep those Daily Horror's of yours, if only for the eye candy value you get from page 3.

Poor old Hasbeen has been shocked to find out that Fred Flintstone was having a "GAY OLD TIME" with his neighbor Barney Rubble thinking they were only consuming a famous 'Streets' ice cream of the same name, and not each other, he though they were just friends!

Spindoc is in a spin, thinks Little Johnny Howard was Australia's greatest ever PM, it would be true if Australia had only one PM ever and it was the fool Howard. Not only did the people give his government the flick, the voters of Bennelong gave him the flick as well.

To Foxy and Poirot, please keep up the excellent posts. They are proving to be the only shining lights of sensibility on this tread amoung the nonsense of our usual bunch of fanatical right wing posters.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 26 October 2014 11:31:00 AM
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Dear spindoc,,

Nice try.

And again - assumptions made that are totally wrong.

Firstly, my parents ended up in this country. I was
born here. And as for my political inclinations -
my dear Sir, again you are assuming things about which
you know absolutely nothing. Just because one feels a duty
to address shortcomings in the system does not mean that
one is against the system. On the contrary - one simply
wants to see improvements made. And if you insist on
behaving as you do - and I am talking about stereotyping
here - (go back and re-read your own posts)
then of course counter-stereotyping will also occur.
That's the norm on this forum after all and you guys can't
complain when you indulge in it and then get the same back.
Righteous indignation is not appropriate in your case.
Not at all.

As David E. Springer, an American lawyer once stated, when he
also felt a duty to address shortcoming in the American
system:

"At all times, vigilance is the price of liberty.
We must remain vigilant because whiole it might be us jtoday,
it will be some other group down the road 20 years from now.
The measure of our society over history is our fidelity
to our principles. We must remind our government and our
people to remain faithful to those principles or otherwise
our society, like so many in the past, will be swept on the ash
heap of history."

And talking about "brass" - balls, knuckles, whatever.
Well Sir, I don't look upon this as a blood-sport.
You apparently do. But that's your problem not mine!
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 26 October 2014 11:40:17 AM
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As a famous person once pointed out - (Forbes),
"When you rely on surface appearances and
false stereotypes rather than in-depth knowledge
of others at the level of the heart, mind, and
spirit - their ability to assess and understand
people accurately is compromised."

And as we all know people are much deeper than
stereotypes. To quote from another saying -
- Nothing would please me more than to
hear someone's story and be able to say about them:

"I'd never have guessed."
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 26 October 2014 12:02:39 PM
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'morning Foxy,

I've just finished and interesting exercise. You can put your posts as a response to any thread and any comment, they all make equal nonsense.

Try it, it works every time!
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 26 October 2014 12:36:14 PM
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Dear spindoc,

I'm so sorry to read that but of course I
understand perfectly. You're stuck in a mental
prison - which blinds you not only to your own
potentiality but to those of others.

You need to find a cure - although I suspect it
may be too late in your case. Unhealthy tongues
have no other option than infest themselves with
their own diseases.

You have my sympathy Sir!
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 26 October 2014 12:52:25 PM
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Dear poirot,

Nice pickup on Hasbeen.

The 'I pay my own way on health' quickly became a pants around the ankles moment but he blustered his way through it with hardly a blush.

It does make one question how much of the other guff he posts here comes from the same well.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 27 October 2014 12:09:24 PM
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A memorial service for Gough has been arranged for November 5 at 11am, Sydney Town Hall, the Town Hall with a capacity of only 2000 is not big enough for the event with over 4000 already indicating their attendance. This will easily be the biggest political send off since Bob Menzies farewell in 1978.
Will be there to pay my respects, joining with our comrades from the Labor Party and others to farewell the great man.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/gough-whitlams-memorial-is-standing-room-only-20141026-11c2qz.html
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 8:03:44 AM
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Dear Paul,

Due to my health, work, and family commitments I can't
attend unfortunately however I shall be with you in
my prayers and spirit. From the reaction of most
people, it does appear that the negatrons and haters
are in the minority after all. No surprises there.
Most Australians appreciate the many changes that were
brought in by Whitlam - changes that today we take
for granted - like Medicare, contraceptives, the right
to vote at age 18, and so on. History will judge Whitlam,
I wonder what it will say about the current mob?
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 8:58:41 AM
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Lol!, Foxy.

History has just released its first draft, which reads...

"#%$@*#$#%"
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 9:01:11 AM
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Foxy, on a personal level I owe the Whitlam Government for a number of things. Not the least the abolition of conscription, and two, the government loan we received when first married allowing us to buy a two bedroom unit for $21k on 10% deposit, when the banks had laughed in our faces.

Excellent article in 'The Age' by Ken Davidson

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/debunking-the-myth-of-gough-whitlams-economic-incompetence-20141024-11b3ez.html
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 9:40:33 AM
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Dear Poirot,

Damn straight!

And these are people who are classified by some
on this forum as being "respectable and upstanding,"
who espouse freedom from government control,
free speech and less government regulation, but do
the opposite once in government. These are people
controlling and shaping politics/our society - when
will they be held accountable?

Hopefully at the next election!
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 9:48:17 AM
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Dear Paul,

Did you watch "Q and A," last night on the ABC?

Great show - and the feelings expressed about
Gough Whitlam's legacy were very emotive.
Geoffrey Robertson QC, was a breath of fresh air!
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 10:12:57 AM
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Gough Whitlam---Australia's greatest Prime Minister He made me feel Australian
Posted by laz91, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 10:26:07 AM
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Foxy,

The best part was when Right-wing Rowan from the Spectator was telling the audience that the 60's changed Australia, not Gough.

And Geoffrey Robinson pointed out that the 60's revolution wasn't particularly felt in Australia at all, it was still held in the Menzies' torpor and cultivating its cultural cringe.

Gough ushered in progressive thought and brought us up to speed regarding the 60's, beginning in 1972.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 10:33:13 AM
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'Gough ushered in progressive thought and brought us up to speed regarding the 60's, beginning in 1972. '

yep certainly left us with 20 years debt which all the regressives seem to think is a good thing. All promises and no delivery.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 11:04:07 AM
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Dear Poirot,

I had forgotten about that particular bit from
Geoffrey Robertson. It was brilliant!

Those who claimed (and some still apparently do)
that there were no results achieved
seem to have forgotten things like Medicare, abolition
of the death penalty, free university education, no fault
divorce, voting age lowered to 18, bringing our troops
back from Vietnam, ending conscription, making contraceptives
easily available for all, and many, many more.
As well as opening up communication with Asia (his visit to
China).

As Robertson pointed out - the man's legacy lingers
on even today - and we're its benefactors -
and the man was married to the same woman
for 70 years, which must be a record. Robertson was right
when he stated that Whitlam - was a decent
human being to whom - greed was not a driving force.
Rare qualities for any human being, especially a politician.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 12:03:11 PM
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Dear Poirot,

I just remembered another classic tweet from
a poster on the show:

"...in honour of Gough, how about another Dismissal?"

Great idea!
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 12:31:54 PM
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Foxy,

Yes, indeedy...I retweeted that!
(one of my followers)
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 12:45:47 PM
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'"...in honour of Gough, how about another Dismissal?"
a little slow ladies we have already seen Rudd/Gillard dismissed thankfully.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 1:01:13 PM
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Whitlam was damned lucky to be dismissed before the enormity of his disastrous policies became evident, such as the terrible violence that was to befall indigenous women, children and youth behind the dense black curtain that shielded indigenous communities from the prying eyes of the media (and the authorities too!).

What incredible gall and lies could re-write the apartheid of 'self-management' as anything positive? The destroyed careers and lives of many brave whistleblowers an finally the hem was lifted on the damage wrought by the ill-advised, ill-conceived 'Progressivism' that allowed ferocious, bent old men (and old women too!) to molest children, beat up women and youth, and waste and direct assets paid for by the taxpayer to their own use. How many whistleblowers and how many Australian National Audit reports, but all ignored by those 'Progressives', then and later? Shame, Whitlam, shame!

Education was mentioned by some here. No surprise there because it was the middle class that benefited hugely from that. The soy cafe latte 'Progressives' are middle class and middle class women were the main beneficiaries of Whitlam's education initiatives and other benefits that were supposed to be for the 'workers'. Frankly it is doubtful if any of the 'Progressive' Labor leaders ever went near a blue collar worker except for a photo opportunity in a pub.

Whitlam benefited the public service where there were enormous gains in numbers and staff levels - also where so many wives (later 'partners') and girlfriends were appointed and supported through study assistance, academia (plenty of well-paid academics all lefties and none concerned to be accountable for student outcomes) and the arts (where money flowed along with the Campari to celebrate the windfalls).

Whitlam founded the victim industries based on the 'isms' and again, the middle class, academics and professionals (social sciences) did handsomely well (and for their careers to follow as it turned out!).
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 1:53:29 PM
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Gee whiz - you obviously don't know many
middle-class women or academics - all the ones
that I've encountered have all worked full time, studied,
part time, raised families, and paid for their own education.
They've alao gained their positions based on merit and sheer
hard work. Perhaps you need to get out more into the real
world with real people before making sweeping statements and
generalisations. Of course one can only go by one's
experience but by the sound of it - your experience appears
to be very narrow and limited to say the least - unless of
course you're simply buying into the right-wing warrior rhetoric
and the murdoch news (which is limited). Especially if you think
that they're all latte drinkers (or chardonnay) or whatever
beverage seems to impress you greatly. You really are a
very insecure old chap - and as I told spindoc - you also have my
sympathy!

And talking about cronyism - boy oh boy - you should have been in
Victoria under Jeff Kennett - and also take a closer look at
the current mob - they want to have their cake and eat it too!
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 2:21:47 PM
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cont'd ...

All the rest of us want is not to lose the basics!
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 2:24:10 PM
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Foxy,

You don't have to boast about the burn you have given me along with Spindoc and countless others in the past.

What you do need to do however is address the countering arguments put to you - which you consistently fail to do, preferring to attack the man instead.

Gough was a Silvertail who flaunted his intellect and education. He was never inclined to listen to others, particularly when in full sail (almost always) and where his favourite hobby horses were at risk. He was in many ways the perfect 'Progressive', because Gough always presumed to know what was best for others. Then again, like all other 'Progressive' Labor leaders and 'Progressive' mighty mouths in the media, his rules for others never applied to himself.

That claimed International Socialism never got in the way of jet travel and staying in superior hotels in very, very nice places. The Ruddy Fool and Julia Whatsherbloody name (y'know, the one with the $2M to bungalow to roll around in) all lived high on the hog, had expensive tastes and knew how to direct the servants who tended to them, especially in that luxury PM jet.

Anyhow, has there ever been such a boom in government, in public services jobs and consultant hangers-on than when the Whitlam government was in charge of that bucket of public money that they thought would never run dry? They are centralists: Big Australia (voters for Labor), Big Government and endless State interference in provate lives. Oh, and endless cringing leftist 'diversity-we-have-to-have' multiculturalism to breed out those 'whites' they dislike so much.

Gough had far too much time in opposition and had created a fantasy. Imagine if you were the CEO of a sizeable company and you came across Gough as one of your senior regional managers. Without hesitation you'd put someone in charge of him with directions to keep the leash tight, wouldn't you?

Oz couldn't afford Gough and the huge costs of the 'isms' linger on.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 3:17:53 PM
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otb,

I don't believe in having a battle of wits
with a person such as yourself who's so
obviously unarmed. So challening your views
becomes so easy. You're way outclassed old chap -
but keep trying. You amuse me. And I enjoy
pointing out your failings in every quadrant.
And I choose the questions I answer not you.
Nobody made you in charge. You seem to have
delusions of adequacy - but that's your problem
not mine. As for showing you my "bum?"
You wish. In your case - it's simply blowing raspberries
and the middle finger that I would prefer to use!
(smile).
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 4:00:45 PM
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Foxy,

More burns, is that all you've got?

As usual, I will not join you in that.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 4:47:58 PM
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I have read the last couple of posts by Beach, I can only describe them as 'The Diatribe of a Desperate'. For a raving right winger, and one so politically naive as our dear friend Beach, his deluded tirade against Whitlam and his government defies belief. The fellow excels in delivering the most venomous of posts, and again he has achieved this end, with his daily incantations of hate against those he despises, Progressives, Greens, Labor Socialists and anyone with the temerity to disagree with his wildest of machinations! On reading these Beach diatribes it is soon realised that they lack any factual substance what so ever, they are nothing more than his own distorted delusions. He then has the effrontery to demand others refute his nonsensical arguments. I simply say, why should they?
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 7:15:54 PM
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Paul1405,

You play politics but be aware that game is always played at the expense of the vulnerable.

I believe my assessment of the Whitlam years and the aftermath has been quite restrained and that is thinking of the awful harm and wasted resources and years from from Black Curtain period of self determination by indigenous communities.

It was self-imposed apartheid that benefited the few in the communities and some related as far as I was aware, and provided careers in the public service and as consultants, for a mob of people who made a jolly good living out of money that should have been delivering results out there on the ground, or at least allowing those young children to complete schooling somewhere else where it was possible and where they were safe.

Whitlam created a victim industry for fleas on fleas. He did that inadvertently, but he didn't listen to contrary advice which I am sure he would have been receiving from existing departmental heads. -That was when he was in Australia, of course. He was quite a tourist and Australia was a pond that was far too small for him (a similar comment applies to Kevin707 and Juliawhatsherbloodyname).

I was given permission a number of times to travel through some aboriginal lands, permission I was thankful for, and while I saw only bits of what was happening within and it was after Whitlam, that was enough to reduce many of my party to tears for young mothers, children and youth. Make that tears of exasperation too.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 9:01:57 PM
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Whitlam, was the first politician in Australia to make a consciences effort to improve the lot of aboriginal people. What had years of conservative rule achieved? Noting but to foster innate racism within Australian white society. Prior to Whitlam the majority were nice raciest, with the mentality that "Oh! Abbos, yes they are decent enough simple people, but they have to know their place." Their place was to be ostracised and marginalised and pushed to the extreme fringes of society. Aboriginals lived in appareling conditions, on health, education and all social justice issues the plight of aboriginal people was abysmal! That is what Whitlam inherited from Menzies and co who had rules over aboriginal people since 1788.
I will not deny mistakes were made by the Whitlam government and subsequent governments on the question of aboriginals but to take the short sighted cynical view that you take is unreasonable.
My own mother who lived to be 84, possessed a small amount of aboriginal blood from her mothers side, something she denied until the very last years of her life, they had created a story to explain their "olive" skin as she liked to call it, it was "Spanish" from the exotic island of "Mauritius". For people to fabricate such a lie for a 100 years, I ask you, how far down has their race been driven?
I'm glad you were given permission to travel through aboriginal land, because every step you take in Australia is through aboriginal land.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 4:47:36 AM
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Paul405, "every step you take in Australia is through aboriginal land"

Is that so, what tribe then? Because there were dozens and dozens and all hated one another, with the penalty of a cruel death for even a child's accidental incursion, one step, into another tribe's assumed land - territories that were fought over for thousands of years.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 2:03:48 PM
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otb,

What difference does it make what tribes.
Or how they may have fought amongst themselves.
The fact remains they were here first. This was
their country since time immemorium and the
settlers fought to establish British authority
over Australia. The continent did not just fall
into their laps. They killed and destroyed to acquire
it.

I really can't understand why some Australians find
it hard to respond to the destruction of Aboriginal
society.

And the sad thing is that its obvious
that these same people still seem to prefer to defer from
dealing with these great problems today and in doing so
bequeath these problems to their descendents.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 3:00:06 PM
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Foxy,

So you would be opposed to diversity then? Y'know, the diversity-Australians-have-to-have?

Do you say too that the Aborigines were xenophobes and racists for opposing settlement and not wanting to share with the poor and vulnerable displaced and transported from their own familiar land?

Plenty of space for that 'Open Door' immigration policy you support. Or is that different too?

What about all of those new restaurants to relieve the 'Nullaboring' culture and cuisine back then? You are the one who goes on about Australia being stiflingly 'Nullaboring' before diversity right?

Obviously it takes a compartmentalised mind to be 'Progressive'. It sure helps to promote that black armband view of history, eh? -But only where criticism of 'whites' is concerned (you mean people from the UK, don't you?).

Back to the thread, the unforseen negative consequences of Whitlam's self-imposed apartheid for Aborigines were horrendous for women, children and youth especially and many whistleblowers had their careers and lives destroyed trying to publicise the fact.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 5:02:42 PM
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otb,

Talking about compartmentalised minds.
Your post is a perfect example of yours.

You have to realise old chap that it is now
possible to explore the past by means of a
large number of books, articles, films,
novels, songs, paitings, and other primary
sources. We can now know a great deal
about the history of indigenous-settler
relations. But knowing brings burdens which
can be shirked by those living in ignorance.
With knowledge the question is not longer what
we know but what we are now to do, and that is
a much harder matter to deal with. It will
continue to perplex so many of us for many years to
come.

BTW: The Nullaboring reference that you seem to
enjoy citing in an attempt to demean me - was
as you know - made by Philip
Adams from a speech he made , as I explained to
you several times in the past. It has to be taken
in context of the conditions that did exist at that
time. Adams was referring to Pre-World War II
Asutralia - before Multiculturalism. And as you know
those were very different times in Australia - that
were indeed "boring," and primitive. As Geoffrey Robertson
explained on "Q and A," the other night - Gough Whitlam
in 1972 managed to drag Australia into the 1960s.

Once again - you misrepresent my views and your assumptions
about me are also wrong. Still I choose to let that be
your problem, not mine.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 5:35:59 PM
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Adams' and your own sneering contempt and cultural elitism do not detract from the achievements of the pioneers and the courage and self-denial of the men and women who made the best of it and soldiered on through the Depression and WW1.

You and the cultural cringing Adams are both content to live off their hard work and achievements of course
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 6:44:45 PM
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otb,

Telling it as it was and what were Government policies
at the time can by no means be construed to be
"sneering contempt," by any rational person. I'm
afraid Sir, the contempt is entirely in your mind, and
for that none of us can be held responsible.
It's been pointed out to you by some many posters on
this forum that you are a master at misrepresentation
and your displays of faux
righteous indignation has certainly worn thin.
I suggest you try a new approach. Preferably one with
some intelligence.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 9:59:51 PM
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You only have to compare Gough Whitlam and his achievements with those of his immediate predecessor William McMahon (Billy Big Ears as we liked to call him). I was fortunate enough to have met both, Billy came across as a very nice bloke.

McMahon was an MP from 1949 to 1982, 21 years a minister and PM 1971-72 a little less than 2 years. What do we remember about McMahon's prime ministership? US President Nixon famously forgot his name at a White House dinner and his good wife Sonia wore a rather hot numbers for the times, a dress with a split, was all the talk in Washington.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/a-love-beyond-understanding/story-e6frg6z6-1111114526775
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 30 October 2014 7:37:15 AM
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LOL You only have to compare Gough Whitlam with Kevin707, the ruddy fool whose cavalier destruction of the Pacific Solution created the successful business model for criminal people smugglers.

Or with the victim-playing Julia Whatsherbloodyname (you know, the disloyal one with the shirt full of Sheffield steel and the $2million bungalow) who blamed everyone but herself for her stuff-ups.

We are talking about a passion for international travel and absolute minimum time at home aren't we?

Because the three, Whitlam, Rudd and Whatsherbloodyname were all severely flawed as leaders and what does it matter anyway when the faceless men and womyn of the factions dictate policy anyhow?
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 30 October 2014 1:53:07 PM
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otb,

Name one political leader on either side of politics
who wasn't flawed. What a nonsensical argument.

And talking about faction control. The Coalition is made
up of two Parties (Liberal and National) each with their
own agendas and back-room puppet masters who dictate to
both. And if you pay attention to the news you do hear
of the referrals to the factions on both sides.

On the surface there is the Abbott faction and the Turnbull
faction and there are others trying to establish their own
factions. That's the way the game of politics appears to
be played in this country. Pointing fingers at only one
side of politics merely indicates your own bias.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 30 October 2014 2:22:43 PM
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Now Foxy's spin diminishes the undemocratic influence of the factions that bedevil all Labor leaders, past and present. Good luck with that!

Willie Shorten aka 'Whatever She Says' would be living on borrowed time after the factions have set him up to do another 'Whatever She Says'. -This time for the 'Captain's Pick' senator from the Northern Territory who really should be appearing in the Parliament herself to emphatically deny the allegations being made against her.

Apparently the 'Captain's Pick' has more value to the factions than Willie Shorten. Willie is set up to take the fall. It was a 'hospital pass' that the factions have thrown him and he is about to be buried head first in the proverbial.

Will the factions go with the scheming Tanya Plibersek who is sorting through her handbag right now for a suitably long knife?

As one of the notorious Handbag Kit Squad, Tanya knows how to put them in low and high (mainly low though), so Willie Shorten may well be shortened tout de suite and both ends.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 30 October 2014 2:56:34 PM
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otb,

Good luck with what?

Give it a rest old chap you're beginning to
sound demented!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 30 October 2014 8:04:30 PM
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On the memorial service for Gough, it was well done, very respectful and attended by the broad spectrum of society. As for the comments by the 'Usual Suspects' in the peanut gallery (elsewhere on the forum) I would expect nothing less. It is interesting to note how society treats the loss of a true progressive like Gough Whitlam, and what will be said and done when one of "theirs" cashes in his chips. How old is Murdoch 83? One of the key players in the Whitlam years. Kerr got dispatched without much fanfare, Fraser has earned respect since, should get a decent send off, when the time comes. As for Rups well, who knows.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/the-lines-broken-malcolm-fraser-mourns-his-friend-gough-whitlam-20141021-119a5d.html
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 6 November 2014 7:46:20 AM
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Dear Paul,

I watched bits and pieces of the Memorial Service on
TV. It was extremely moving and the thousands who
turned up and were not able to get seats inside -
showed clearly how highly Gough Whitlam is
held by most Australians. The detractors on this forum
don't matter. They are irrelevant in the general scheme
of things and will eventually end up on the dung heap of
history where they belong as will the non-entities they
support.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 6 November 2014 8:57:47 AM
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Foxy, history remembers the movers and shakers, like Gough. As for the staid do nothing types, well the dust bin of history for them.
Look at the positive achievements of the father of The Conservative Party in Australia 'Pig Iron' Bob Menzies our longest serving Prime Minister.

List of achievements of Bob Menzies;
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

The End.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 6 November 2014 10:47:16 AM
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Dear Paul,

I've got to confess that my parents and other older
family members, including my in-laws who lived in the
Melbourne suburb of Kew - were very strong supporters of
Sir Robert Menzies because of his anti-communist
stance. Also lets not forget that some 100,000
Australians turned out in the Melbourne CBD to pay
tribute to Sir Robert after he died at age 83.
This provides an indication of the respect with which
Sir Robert was held by many.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 6 November 2014 12:20:13 PM
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Foxy, my old man was rusted on Labor, but mum always voted for Mr Menzies, as many women did. After 'Pig Iron' Bob she switched and voted Labor for the rest of her life, about 40 years.
Yes Menzies was well loved by many Australians, and there was a genuine sadness at his passing. For many Menzies was a pillar of stability. I think those years were a period of lost opportunity for Australia, but others would choose to disagree.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 6 November 2014 6:29:29 PM
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Dear Paul,

My politics changed from that of my family after
we lived and worked in the US for a little over
ten years. I saw what the Republicans there were really
all about and then began to see the Liberals in a
different light on our return - even though I'm not too thrilled
with the Labor Party currently. I did vote Liberal
at the last State election because I liked our
local candidate who works so hard for her electorate.
I also admire (and like) Kelly O'Dwyer, and of course -
Julie Bishop. It's all up to the leadership - of the
Party and the puppet masters . Who knows where my
politics will be at the next election. It depends
what's on offer - and the policies. I couldn't take Mr Abbott
seriosuly - he had nothing to offer except for rhetoric -
"Stop the boats," "Get rid of the carbon tax,"
but nothing on education, health, et cetera.
I wonder if it will be the same thing in a few years time.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 6 November 2014 7:25:30 PM
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Foxy, like you I think for myself, in 2013 I voted 1 Green 2 Liberal, I was shocked when the Liberal just failed to take the seat from Labor. The Liberal Party actually stood the better candidate in my opinion. Labor was behind on 1st preferences but won on the Green vote. I often scrutineer for The Greens, generally about 20% of our vote flows to The Liberal Party. In the NSW state it is optional preferential, last time there was no way I was going to give a preference to either of the big two. Given Labor was corrupt, and the Liberal candidate was a blow in air head, again in my opinion. The air head still managed a 16% swing, not bad for a dumbo, who did little campaigning against the Labor Premier, Obeids Gal as she was called. The outstanding candidate was The Green candidate who ran third, but she is now in parliament in the upper house, and Maureen is proving to be a real asset for us.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 6 November 2014 10:01:46 PM
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