I have Epilepsy and saw my Neurologist today. Upon going there on the bus, I started to get a condition from earlier this year.

My specialist suggested a solution.

I was really impressed with what was suggested, thanking her. I said I was was really impressed with the fact that we have so many intelligent specialists here, compared to poor and war torn countries.

Too many people complain in Australia - like the $7.00? GP payment. Why? Look at Palestine or many third world countries and their countires. Grow up Australia - and stop complaining! We are a lucky country!

Quite right NathanJ.
We have one of the best health systems in the world, and yet still they complain!

Having travelled overseas extensively, I can honestly say we ARE the lucky country.
And this is despite Medicare, climate change, multiculturalism and our political system.

Australians let us rejoice!

Dear Nathan and Suse,

Hear! Hear!

I've recently undergone my second catheter ablation -
(fingers-crossed it worked this time). However,
my specialist, the hospital staff, could not have
been better. We are indeed fortunate in this
country. And having full medical insurance - the
cost to me was nominal. The care - first-class.

NathanJ

well said.

Susie and Foxy

I take it your ok with Nathan telling people not to complain about the $7 GP payment. First time I know of you lining up with the Government.

Fingers crossed from me too Foxy : )
I need you here to fight in my corner!

Having recently been a patient myself, at both a public and a private hospital, and even despite being a nurse, it was still a positive experience.
Both hospitals treated me equally well.

i got my electricity bill today for the past month. It is $90.- My reaction was gee i didn't think I was using that much power. My wife then said 'that's only $3.00 per day & I thought gee that's cheap !

Great Scott I thought, have some of OLO's most tireless Leftist whingers gone through a very recent, miraculous epiphany and are finally rejecting the black armband view of Australia as promoted by Julian Burnside et al!

But no, sadly there are the give-away snipes and the usual appeal for linked-arms, lock-step tag-team reactive stuff, "I need you in my corner". Very funny, but ever so needy too.

Returning to the OP, yes people are not doing so badly at all in an egalitarian, welfare State like Australia. We should welcome each day spent on the green side of the grass and give thanks. Remembering though that there are some among us who live lonely lives, and especially so for those suffering from illness and depression.

So, find some time to volunteer please. Nothing special, just give some time to be company for someone.

My hospital experiences are that the medical staff are excellent, the health administrators are rotten to the core.

It wound seem the right camp are sweeting a little:)...Don't worry...the people that are running the show, must have an in-side No black mail policy..and your that insure?...People complain simply that their too well off....I cant see olo solving that one any time soon.

Your thoughts....if you have one.

Country people seem to be at the short end of the stick....I totally disagree with that. The people who complain the most....should gain a passport and fight overseas and root-factor some morals give notwith standing:)...

Look people...if you want my autograph...just ask:)...

Tally:)

Dear Suse,

Thanks for your kind words.
People like you, SteeleRedux, Poirot,
and many other voices of reason - keep me
coming back to this forum. The others -
are interesting as well - (as a bridge to the '50s
mentality).

Foxy,
Here's some enlightenment for you on the word Reason. Some of it might be foreign to you but you can look it up on the net.

1 a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event: she asked him to return, but didn't give a reason | I resigned for personal reasons | [ with clause ] : Giles is the reason that I am here.
• [ mass noun ] good or obvious cause to do something: we have reason to celebrate.
• Logic a premise of an argument in support of a belief, especially a minor premise when given after the conclusion.
2 [ mass noun ] the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements logically: there is a close connection between reason and emotion.
• what is right, practical, or possible; common sense: people are willing, within reason, to pay for schooling.
• (one's reason) one's sanity: she is in danger of losing her reason.

I believe Australia has one of the best mixed societies in the developed World. Our mix of capitalism tempered with socialism has in general terms been successful for the majority. That is not to say we do not have many inequalities within society, and too many disadvantaged people, we certainly do. The fact we have been a stable and successful state has allowed us to develop a welfare system to support in part the needs of the disadvantaged. The provision of public services in heath, education etc is up there with the best of them.
I do not want Australia to stagnate or go backwards, there are some who believe there is too much provided from the public purse and that taxes, and therefore that provided by government should be reduced. I do not agree.

I do not want Australia to stagnate or go backwards
Paul1405,
Not consciously perhaps !

Australians do not complain enough.

Example: Had more people complained when Sydney's excellent tramways were shut down, then people wouldn't be faced with the disruption to be caused when the tracks go back in George St.

People didn't complain enough when the Liberal Government of the day sold off the railway Right of Way for the Eastern Suburbs Railway, to build it now would mean a very costly underground system or resumption of the right of way.

If more people complained we would not have the ridiculously low speed limits that frustrate, waste fuel and lead to driver fatigue and accidents.

Shortsighted complacency is the Australian way.

Dear Individual,

Seeing as you're so keen to give advice to
others here's a few pointers for you.
No need to Thank me. ;-)

The art of reasoned, intelligent argument is a
skill not easily acquired. The first point is to
always argue in a logical manner. Sound reasoning
will conquer unreasonable generalisations every
time. For instance when arguing over feminism -
don't say "All feminists hate men." That makes
you appear to be arguing on an emotional level -
not a mature intelligent one. A more effective
approach would be a subtle hint that some feminists
appear to be very strident against the opposite sex.

There's much more that can be said - but suffice
to add that its always best to think before you post.
No one likes, or supports an abusive, illogical or
weak debater.

The fact that there are worse places to be is irrelevant, or it implies we should reduce Oz to Third World conditions as the current Government is attempting to do, obviously unacceptable.
Any one person's experience with the medical system is similarly irrelevant, it's the whole system that matters and it is failing, also largely due to the current Gov but Labor must bear part of that blame too.
Australia was and has been a wonderful democratic country but is now losing all that made us a great place to be and live, largely thanks to the Noe-conservatives, a fancy name for a New Feudalism.
I believe that Australians should be doing far more than complaining, we should be acting on those complaints, we should be protesting the Government's attacks on the poor and disadvantaged, we should be resisting this current Ideology that wealth confers greater rights and that the victims of societies failings are to blame for their own problems, as in punishing the unemployed even though there are far from enough jobs to go around.
Try telling the homeless that Oz is wonderful, try persuading those in the bush, or the Indigenous, or the disabled, or the pensioners without a home they own, or the young unemployed who are ripped off and abused at every turn, even by those who are supposed to be looking out for them, their Government.
Yes, a lot of people are "doing OK", but that won't last, the divide between the rich and poor is widening and the middle-class are shrinking, soon enough those comfortable know-alls will find themselves getting the short end if nothing is done to stop the degradation of this once egalitarian society.

G'dayBruce,
Good to read your words, it's uplifting to see after so much head-banging against the lefties do-gooder, rose-coloured glasses brigade.
A liitle practical pride such as not abusing negative gearing etc. rather than simply I'm proud to be Australian cries would go a long way towards staving off your predictions.
cheers

Indi, Are you still pushing your harebrained and un-costed scheme for the "Gomer Pyle Memorial Boot Camp" for 19 to 21 year old's. You wanted to set up in the Deep Deep North some time back! I remember you were BIG on that one, however you have gone a bit quite on it lately. With the type of government now in Canberra you wanted, have you been furiously writing letters, pushing the grand scheme? If not, why not, what is your latest brain wave to improve Australia?

set up in the Deep Deep North
Paul1405,
Not in the deep North, everywhere in Australia & if you think that a sense of responsibility & harmony & belonging is hare-brained, well, I'd say you're the hare-brained one. But of course you've displayed a hare-brained mentality since your first post. I don't suppose you've put your mother up for sale yet, have you ?
My latest brainwave to improve Australia is a non-military National Service to give young adults the opportunity to think for themselves & out-breed the likes of you.
Once the likes of you are reduced in numbers & dependency on Government or rather taxpayer funding the rest can start re-building this great country. Imagine a population without the likes of you ? Harmony, plenty to go round, everyone pulling their weight, great !

Hello G'dayBruce,

We need reform in Australia - and this requires quality "debate". Not simply "complaining". It doesn't solve any issues in Australia.

Too many people in Australia are negative. I have three medical conditions - and after my recent appointment this week am now on seven medications per week - some I take twice per day.

But I'm not going to let that hold me down - I'm look at things as positively as possible - and what makes me do that, is that I can be negative (and go nowhere) or be positive in which I can do a lot more.

What is what is happening overseas is relevant to this topic. My parents met a couple, (who applied as refugees) to come to Australia. Of Anglo Saxon background, (under Robert Mugabe) they were racially targeted. The wife was shot so many times that one of her intestines fell out. At a hospital she was told: "You are so lucky to be alive, you should be dead."

People need to find their own solutions more and change their mindset. All Labor, smaller parties and independent politicians are looking for is publicity at present.

This can lead to a negative perception of people doing very good work in this very good country - something we should be proud of. Stop talking our country down.

NathanJ, good on you for your positive thinking, and good luck with your medical problems.

Take no notice of any nasty individual on this forum who may try to knock you down.
It must be very tiring for them to live in a constant state of anxiety and negativity.
And....very un-Australian!

Cheers,
Suse.

"Too many people complain in Australia - like the $7.00? GP payment. Why? Look at Palestine or many third world countries and their countires. Grow up Australia - and stop complaining! We are a lucky country!"

Er.....which is exactly why we need to to be vigilant that rabid right-wing govts don't white-ant Medicare.

The "$7.00" co-payment is not going toward Medicare. $2 towards GP's for managing it and $5.00 to a hastily confected "Medical Research Thingy"

This is apparently to send "a price signal" (something they don't think works with carbon)

Not to mention they've simultaneously cut CSIRO medical research funding...

http://cpsu-csiro.org.au/2014/08/13/csiro-to-cut-research-into-infectious-disease-and-biosecurity/

"Government cuts to science are set to hit CSIRO’s ground-breaking research into infectious disease with up to eight researchers at Geelong’s Australian Animal Health Laboratory (AAHL) set to lose their jobs.

CSIRO scientists at the laboratory recently began research into the deadly Ebola virus, currently the subject of a deadly outbreak throughout parts of West Africa."

So, yes, we have one of the best medical arrangements in the world...and we need to guard it jealously.

Or end up like the US or worse.

Poirot,

I put the question mark next to the $7.00? payment as I was questioning if people would pay $7.00 in any form - because whatever it was for - there would be people complaining - either for selfish reasons - or to simply attack the Liberal party (or both) - and give their favorite political party/person some media coverage in a newspaper or on television.

That is what is the media lives upon and wants - but it is not quality "debate" as my previous post said - nor does it lead to any good quality reform we could have.

As for research - I have put my name down for medical testing, a number of years ago. I very gladly did so, as we need to test on human beings for the public benefit. The medication was not suitable for me - but it could be suitable for somebody else.

Nathan,

I appreciate that.

We are so "lucky" to find ourselves in a first world country, peaceful (by many standards and civilised)

Some of us can see the ideological bent of this particular govt - and, frankly, it's alarming. They go beyond ordinary Conservatism.

Their tampering with Medicare is "ideological"....rolled out early in their tenure along with other ferocious policies earmarked to destroy - or at least to degrade - the social equity we enjoy in this great country.

Structural reform is always on the agenda with any govt - things change - but we must remain vigilant for ideologically-driven overkill.

Dang and dagnabbit! They are after the 'social equity', are they?

A fiendish plot that could derail the gravy train.

"Dang and dagnabbit!"...Lol!

Them tha're varmints 'r after destruct'n it, Pardner.

But them'n townsfolk ain't supposed to notice, notwithstanding that head honcho, Hockey, go tell'n them they's too poor to have a horse, so'in they don't need to worry that hay is too expensive.

(Or some such bollocks)

The real Australians don't complain as much as the pretend ones. Surely that counts for something ?

Indeed it does, individual, it does.

Complacency springs to mind as does selfishness.

Lots of Australians complain about the lack of jobs, especially when it affects them, but I see people that I have heard lamenting the lack of jobs going through the Self Serve Checkout at Woolworths and/or Coles.

Don't usually use it myself as I prefer that an employee of the company serves me. I'm making work for someone.
If I'm in a hurry and have to use the Self Serve I get the attendant to put my stuff through.

Poirot,

It is not just about government - it is about our whole society.

By taking the attitude many in Australia do at present - that everything is so negative - what these people are doing is sending a message to younger and future generations and that people cannot make a difference.

So many in Australia simply want to either blame government, or do nothing themselves. It is not a good move for Australia's future. One year I organised a going away party for my sister's family. I was told at the finish by my parents. "Thank you for putting this on."

It's not about simply accepting every government policy - I agree. I don't however, want to constantly hear about the failings of John Howard, Julia Gillard or the current government or be given a skewed message on a certain topic and how this will ruin parts of our society.

Positive family and community leadership is also an option and can also be a good way to go! Sit down and think about your options - very balanced but also very positively.

Cynical politicians with their class and gender wars instead of constructive policies don't help. What about leaders who foment foul intergenerational jealousy as a cover for their own lack of planning and poor policies?

Nor do the media help with those trivial, superficial 'Ain't it Awful' medial-made stories in lieu of real news, investigative journalism and insightful articles. It is all tabloid stuff, a rush to the gutter.

The culture has changed a lot since Whitlam legitimised complaining and begging, and laid the rails for the victim industry gravy train, with the 'multi-cults' finding seating room as well. When you think about it, there is a ship load of entitled persons as baggage for the ordinary worker to carry and support.

The culture has changed. Looking over a neighbour's back fence, complaining and interfering are common, as is envy. It is not so long ago that such jealous, interfering busybodies were criticised themselves for being the nuisances they are.

This is taken from the high School text book,
"The Changing Australians: A Social History,"
from a chapter called - "The White Australians." :

"While Australian television shows like "Skippy"
(about life in a national park as seen through the
adventures of a tame kangaroo) were popular, the
character of the Aussie housewife was mocked by the
clever comedy skits of over-the-fence-natter by the
Australian actress Dawn Lake. "You tell 'em love"
became the symbol of the tea-sipping-hair-in-curlers-
gossip-over-the-fence brigade."

"Later, this humour was turned to the "Ocker" male,
in the style of Graham Kennedy and the writing of Nino
Culotta, and the city suburbs became the backdrop for the
new Aussie image. Now the language of the pub-crawling,
Aussie gained popularity. "You Drongo," or "He's a galah,"
became the accompaniment to the traditional "bloody bastard."

"The suburban life and well-being of Australian society became
the butt of many jokes, and the intolerance towards
"new Australians" and "coloureds," was sent up as an
unjustifiable prejudice."

"It was not till the 1970s that the Ocker Aussie was packaged
for world consumption in films, and comics, but once done,
the exaggerated image of "Bazza (Barry) MacKenzie became one
which many Australians were no longer so proud of."

"This critical self-consciousness had become more and more
apparent in the late 1960s and forced both politicians and
the public to revise not only policies but also many of
their long-held and cherished notions about themselves
and the rest of the world."

Is this still a "true" picture of Australians?

Why or why not?

In the "interests of discussion."

Foxy,

From your own account you are well educated, have enjoyed a series of well paid government librarian positions with jolly good conditions including superannuation. Your partner is an architect, you have travelled extensively and your daily ride when you are not perambulating around in the new government provided vehicle that many librarians get as part of their package, is GMH's executive, cricket-pitch dimensioned Stateman. You have volunteered that you have your eye on a German luxury vehicle, your minimum and expectation you say, with your husband to pay.

As the girl child, woman child if you wish, of migrants and as a public servant you would have been the recipient of all manner of affirmative action policies for decades -a longer period than many of the younger taxpayers reading this and who would be supporting you still, have been alive. They might reflect upon that.

Given that context it is unreasonable for you to be continually whining about your despised 'white' (sic) Australians and seeking more victim status and entitlement. Your comfortable educated middle class womanhood does not put in the best position to sledge your own countrymen and Australia. But weren't you saying before it is the lucky country - for you and yours too presumably.

No excuses.

Turning to your cherry-picking from a school book, I will take the time to confirm with you once again as others have done in the past that NO, Skippy (also used as an offensive sledge by some), Dawn Lake, Graham Kennedy and Barry McKenzie were never representative of the Australian community, culture or psyche.

How come you don't know that?

Your dogmatism and keen sense of your own personal entitlement always blind you to the tolerance, acceptance, frankness, honesty, generosity and sense of fair play of ordinary Australians. Take a sandwich (not too despised 'white' Australian for you I hope) and go sit in a park somewhere and watch the happy smiling faces of the people. Confusing TV shows with real life is a problem.

"Given that context it is unreasonable for you to be continually whining about your despised 'white' (sic) Australians and seeking more victim status and entitlement. Your comfortable educated middle class womanhood does not put in the best position to sledge your own countrymen and Australia. But weren't you saying before it is the lucky country - for you and yours too presumably. .....Your dogmatism and keen sense of your own personal entitlement always blind you to the tolerance, acceptance, frankness, honesty, generosity and sense of fair play of ordinary Australians....."

Otb,

Foxy posted a quote in the interests of discussion. Her material is pertinent as the media has reflected back to us certain aspects of our psyche over the years. We are very different in outlook in 2014 than we were in 1945 or 1975.

Now I'll just note that you appear to be priming yourself for another full on otb sledge of Foxy....as is your occasional wont....and has been enacted many times before. You criticism of her recent post, again drawing on her antecedents and her personal life are unreasonable.

She posted a discussion piece and you take it as a chance to get personal.

(Just in case you were thinking of continuing on the same tack)

Poirot,

You are needed back on that other thread where you have been playing your parlour game of tit-for-tat for twenty-two pages.

Although Foxy will be pleased with your reciprocation here for her help there as well. Despite that, Shadow Minister's patient persistence has put you to rout.

'Nek minute', you appear here. Figures. LOL

Anyhow, I'll not keep you from returning to your:

- indignant hysteria over the PM declaring "gifts to Frances [his daughter] of negligible value, such as free tickets to marketing events"; and your,

- "poncing about".

Meanwhile, BTT, where Foxy has some explaining to do.

Taking all the afore posts into consideration it strikes me that most would be partial to a non-military national service to get some positive back into our gimme gimme society.
Flat tax also & we'd be on our way to betterment. All this negativity that's being talked about is solely & purely due to the lack of discipline & responsibility. This where the islamic society has got it over us, they have that discipline & the sense of responsibility & belonging to the way of life they aspire to. It is to our detriment but only because our society lacks the oinviction that the islamic society has be it stupid or callous or smart & benevolent in our eyes. In their eyes it's what they want & they're on their way to getting it. Why don't we grab the bull by the horns & do the same instead of just complaining ?

otb,

If you would be so kind to check back on this thread, you'll note that I "was already here". I came back to have a look at how the conversation was progressing...and lo and behold, I find otb winding up to have one of his regular personal tilts at Foxy.

And, who do you think you are directing me where I should and should not go on this forum.

"Meanwhile, BTT, where Foxy has some explaining to do."

Well....Lol!....I know how much you get your jollies from personally attacking Foxy, think you're on a winner with this one, do you?

Perhaps you'd like to do some "explaining" as to why you take a perfectly legitimate post on topic - and turn it into a Foxy-bash...something you've done repeatedly to her (and other women) over the course of your contributions on OLO.

BTT, otb....and that doesn't include singling fellow posters out for inquisition.

I'll be hanging around for a while.......

Is this still a "true" picture of Australians?
Why or why not?
In the "interests of discussion."
Foxy,
No, this picture is of the past. Why, because these characters have been replaced by the Foxies, the Poirots, the Paul1404's et al.
In the interest of discussion I now invite you to 'please explain' why you think the present society is better or worse than the past & why.
Australia had muslim afghans for a very long time why even Bob Katter is apparently a descendent. That generation has integrated so what is the reason for the new generation not wishing to do so ?
The Left has been an extremely strong advocate for multiculturalism over time. Would there be any chance of getting an explanation from them on what they now think of this failure of muslims nowdays to integrate ? What does the left say to this failure which they so strongly defended ?

Nathan,
Well, I for one, do not think Aussies complain enough. We generally are apathetic with a 'she'll be right' attitude.

Not that I don't think we live in one of the best countries on earth, but that has been mostly by good luck and the blood, sweat and tears of our forebears. Our politicians, since 1960, have little to do with it.

Australia faces many future problems and we are doing nothing to minimise them. I see massive problems because of immigration, population growth, ethnic violence, employment and training, cost of housing and traffic congestion to name just a few. That does not include the huge debt the previous government left us with.

We are doing nothing about these matters and we allow our politicians to just carry on regardless.

The only way 'she'll be right' is if we make it right. Left alone problems only escalate.

So, in the interests of those that will come after, we should complain bitterly and demand action on many fronts.

Dear Individual,

Two things - read what I've written recently - on the
"Is there such a thing as a moderate Muslim,..."
site.

And -

Perhaps the following links may help:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5971

And -

http://www.teachingdiversity.org.au/Context/context1.php

Not that I don't think we live in one of the best countries on earth, but that has been mostly by good luck and the blood, sweat and tears of our forebears. Our politicians, since 1960, have little to do with it.
Banjo,
Thank you, this is clearest statement on the situation thus far. It was put on a downhill slide by the Goaf. We've been paying for it since & for him as well. The only one out is Howard who did contribute some unlike the others.
The modern Australians too aren't pulling their weight. Blaming the GFC instead of their incompetence & greed is really all they do.

Hear ye, hear ye, Banjo. Not to mention elitism endemic in society.

Australia is a welfare State where the generation that went before has expectations, previously fairly reasonable, of support from the younger generations that follow.

I totally reject the intergenerational jealousy being encouraged by politicians to cast the 'Boomer' generation (an 18yr spread!) as the whipping boy for spendthrift, error-prone politicians who fail to plan and therefore plan to fail.

BUT, and it is very big 'but', the young generations of workers simply cannot afford to pay for anything like the previous support fro the deserving elderly while they also have the considerable burden of the taxpayers $$ being splurged and obviously wasted (no evidence of proved gains) on the victim industry set in train by Gough Whitlam and later capitalised upon by Labor especially, to buy voting margins.

As well, those younger taxpayers cannot afford the crippling costs of necessary infrastructure -in capital cities as well :( for the over-population of over-enthusiastic immigration that rivals the much criticised over-fertility of Third World countries and results in slums and racial strife.

The Foxys and Poirots are only time-wasting automatons repeating the spin from secretive, unaccountable lobbyists with secondary gain in mind (the lobbyists that is, those who repeat the bumpf are gulls, with both meanings being relevant).

Yes, there are too many whingers in Australia and many are professional hired guns (lobbyists) and middle class professionals who are making hay out of the government policy they advise.

Yes, Australians are often too generous by nature, (traditionally) community conscious to a fault, and should be calling for more accountability from governments who think they are the masters (and they serve their own interests!), not the people who put them there

individual,

I'm very partial to Military national service, until we have a nucleus of at least 5 million fully trained soldiers to call upon when needed.

Something on the Swiss model with 2 years initial service.

Personal contentment and fulfillment
comes from within as a result of your personal life,
your own aspirations and dreams.
Not what an MP, programme planner, adman, or
newspaper editor tells you it should be.

"If it's political how the fook can it be correct?"

Foxy,
any chance of getting your opinion on is Mise's last post ?

Foxy,
I see you are still promoting government sponsored multiculturalism which seems to have its only goal of diversity of ethnicity or nationality.

The question still remains, What is the advantage of multiculturalism and diversity. If we require a certain type of tradesmen and we can fill that requirement with people from 3 groups, why is it advantageous to fill it with people from say 6 groups. What is the advantage to Aus in getting 6 groups of people instead of 3?

There is no unity in diversity, in fact there is more likely to be conflict between differing cultures. Surely it has to be more than just some visual and physical differences. To promote diversity there has to be a distinct and practical advantage.

There is no unity in diversity, in fact there is more likely to be conflict between differing cultures.
Banjo,
You're absolutely right there. Ethnic minority groups are generally ok in western society but as soon as their numbers reach election potential/strength look out !
The insipid ones just want ruin everything others have built through blood, sweat, tears & even through harmony. As far as I'm concerned they can play demolition derby at home not here because we already have enough Lefties to do that.

Banjo: "Well, I for one, do not think Aussies complain enough. We generally are apathetic with a 'she'll be right' attitude."

For me is that many Australians can be apathetic, don't get involved in their community enough, don't do more to improve themselves or simply take a 'complain and blame' government approach - when it is really not justified.

Currently I volunteer with three (small) not for profit groups locally and want to see my local community improve. The question is are you Banjo - simply going to sit back and complain - or take some positive action and improve Australia? You could even win an Australia Day award one year! It's worth the effort! I have a relative who won locally a few years ago.

NathanJ,

Here is a pithy quote from an interesting article that might confirm some views and offer explanation,

"It is a curious fact that while very few people trust politicians, we still insist on letting them have more and more power in our lives, which makes about as much sense as giving Darcy Dugan the keys the David Jones."

The short article is here,
http://economics.org.au/2011/10/singo-and-howard-on-apathy/

Dear Banjo and Individual,

The following link puts things into perspective.
The Conclusion is worth a read. It summarises things
rather well:

http://www.uws.edu.au/equity_diversity/equity_and_diversity/tools_and_resources/reportsandpubs/australian_multiculturalism_the_roots_of_its_success

"If you love your country, have an interest
in politics or policy and care deeply about
our nation's future, there is nothing more
certain to arouse your fury and invite your
contempt than listening to an entire
House of Representatives Question Time.!"
(Malcolm Turnbull).

It rewards, spin, exaggeration and misstatements.

Our politicians need to recapture voter's trust.
It affects us all and our institutions.

I've got a complaint! What about this Abbott rabbit, once again proving to be Australia's international embarrassment.

Abbott had the audacity to lecture the Scots on a totally domestic issue, Scottish independence, saying, supporters of Scottish independence are not "friends of freedom" or "friends of justice", sounds like something he got from a 'Superman Comic'. Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond, rightly told Abbott to pull his head in, Scottish domestic affairs are none of his business.
Scotland goes to the polls on September 18 to decide whether to break away from the 307-year-old union with England.

As Effie would say; "How embarrassment!"

Natham,
Don't worry, I have done my bit well and truly. Nearly 50 years in Bushfire Brigades and held most positions. Also in service clubs and in Local Government. Other community organizations. Have and still do let MPs know my feelings on issues. Have made submissions to many Parliamentary Inquiries. Spent many years involved in political parties and have held many positions.

Except for the time in LG, everything has been at my own time and expense.

Even now am involved with an organization dedicated to stopping FGM in girls because I strongly believe no Aussie girl should have to endure FGM, which is abhorrent.

I believe that in a democracy, like ours, there is a niche for everyone to contribute to at least one community organization, be it sporting, P and C, Service, Progress or political.

Have noticed over the years that for general community organizations most members are made up by Aussies, Poms and Europeans. Few of other ethnic groups participate. They are selective to support their own.

Australian Multiculturalism: the roots of its success
Foxy,
I stopped reading after that headline, as it is obviously so delusional that it's not worth reading on.

I don't know why some people want to be so negative towards people, not of their own background - cultural or otherwise.

It's more of a case of not knowing a person - because if someone does know a person well, individual, family or a group of people - they simply would not make negative comments - if these people were doing great work.

For example I go to Chinatown in Adelaide and there is a fantastic food court business I eat at - at least once per week. In fact so many people go there, their food is brilliant and the operators are also currently looking for a person to fill a full time position and now also open seven days per week.

The business owners there know what I and other's like and are so friendly and nice to meet. Something business wise to be proud of in Australia. A small business doing very well!

Banjo,

Robert D. Putnam (political scientist)did a comprehensive study on the effects of ethnic diversity. He also wrote "Bowling Alone".

He has found the following. More diversity being associated with less communal trust (even of one's own race).

"Diversity and trust within communities:
Lowered trust in areas with high diversity is also associated with:
• Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.
• Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in one's own influence.
• Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.
• Higher political advocacy, but lower expectations that it will bring about a desirable result.
• Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).
• Less likelihood of working on a community project.
• Less likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.
• Fewer close friends and confidants.
• Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.
• More time spent watching television and more agreement that "television is my most important form of entertainment"."

Dear Constance,

I don't quite understand why you're quoting Robert
D. Putnam. He's made a study of problems that he
saw as existing in the United States - and some of
his arguments for the decline of communities
in America are difficult to sustain. In this country
our situation is totally different to that of America.
And hopefully always will be.

Constance, I imagine the original inhabitants of Australia felt just as unhappy as you about the 'new-comers' not 'fitting in'. And yet, here we all are today.

There are good and bad people in every race, culture and religion, and I believe all human beings should be treated the same, just like the story of The Good Samaritan in the bible.

You were very quick to hose that down, Foxy. No reasons given apart from your 'not local, not relevant' though and you certainly didn't make any attempt to address any of the points.

However, from a quick look Robert Putman has excellent, relevant qualifications. See here,

http://www.gov.harvard.edu/people/faculty/robert-putnam

On the other hand, you have repeatedly cited a novelist as your authority, but where is the relevant training that sets her up as the authority you make her out to be? You continually direct readers to her doctorate (in what?) and commend her 'extensive research' too, but you don't say what research that is and whether it was ever published in any journals of note.

Your dogmatism continually blinds you to any evidence that could challenge your opinions and world view.

Constance,

The points you refer are not simply about diversity. It's a range of factors. Diverse views for example can be a good thing when like working on a community project - but this can take a lot of effort.

For example, I'm of a younger age - yet a lot of people I volunteer with (re groups) are 50 plus. I have very different views than many of these people - as I want to see the groups I'm passionate about continue. I also have exciting future ideas.

This can be challenging for some to take in (even people of my age) - but when a message is put together well - it can win people over.

For example I organised (after negotiation) a photographic book launch presentation which included large, scanned, cinema sized photographs, put onto a screen. I had one person come to me saying I'd done a great job.

With any project or direction - I want all people's views heard as much as possible. People out there don't keep any great ideas to yourself! A list of - "problems" and not some basic "solutions" doesn't take our nation further. To all, these pages will 100% benefit if you can put some ideas down. So get thinking!

Suseonline, "just like the story of The Good Samaritan in the bible"

Would that be the same Bible and religion you continually trash on OLO?

The rest is more of your 'Never you mind' and irrelevant.

Nathan J,

You are like a breath of fresh air on this forum....and it's interesting that you are particularly supportive of increased community-driven involvement.

Western countries with their relative wealth have morphed into societies who depend on institutions to carry out the things formerly done by communities. We still have a huge number of people volunteering, but it's not the spontaneous collective act that welded communities together in the past.

There's far more of an "everybody for himself" attitude abounding today than there was in times past. We're all much more autonomous than we used to be and have lost many of our local affiliations to a more centralised arrangement.

I presume Putnam's "Bowling Alone" was in response to Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" which explored the causes of violence in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_for_Columbine

Constance - all those things you listed are more likely to emanate from a modern Western society who, despite their good fortune and wealth, are really just riding the conveyor belt - who have lost to a great extent the art of communal interaction.

Cars and tellys and great big malls full of goodies don't necessarily translate into fodder for healthy and cooperative human interaction.

Nathan, I have to agree wit you but the problem is we now have generations of this who have the mentality that hand outs, in any form, are entitlements, not privileges.

While they may complain about paying a fee to see the doctor, they don't give a seconds thought about those among us who not only go without the handouts, but also provide them.

The reality is that it's taken the entitlement brigade several generations to get to where they are and, it will take several to put them back to a sustainable level, if achievable at all.

As for the co payment, I think Abbott has got this wrong, as I suggest singles, couples and families, who qualify, receive the first x amount of visits free on a monitoring system, then they start to pay, not the other way round. Then, if they have a genuine case that requires extended treatment, then the doctor should decide whether they pay or not, not the government. Of cause this could be corrupted by doctors focussed on making a buck, but no system is perfect.

The other important step must be to stop welfare waste, and a good place to start would be to quarantine welfare payments.

rehctub,

You do realise that "none" of the $7 co-payment is actually going to Medicare, don't you?

You do realise that it's merely the first volley to undermine Medicare.

And the hastily confected "Medical Research Thingy" that attracts $5 of the $7 is a "hastily confected Medical research Thingy" - a puerile attempt to make the white-anting look legit.

You might be interested to know that the govt has simultaneously cut the seat out of the CSIRO's medical research funds.

How's that for disingenuousness?

'new-comers' not 'fitting in'. And yet, here we all are today.
Suseonline,
The newcomers of then have been doing the right thing for many, many years now. I simply can't envisage the new newcomers doing the same.

Simple logic must surely show that any program based in encouraging the differences within society, eg, Multiculturalism, cannot possibly engender unity or a sense of community.
Previous waves of immigrants to Oz have been successful because they assimilated, eventually, usually about three generations in.
Now assimilation is seen as a dirty word and actively prevented, a sure recipe for division and strife.
Complaints about all this are howled down with cries of Racism, yet multilcul' is racist at heart itself.
As far as I can see multicul' was supported as a direct response to the People Power successes of the past, the power elites saw the writing on the wall, the threat to their own control presented by a united community, and they foisted division and conflict on us all as a method of countering the trend.
Divide and Rule, put simply.

otb,

Before podting you really need to do your research.
Dr Eva Sallis is a university lecturer, and highly
qualified to speak on the issues.

As for my comment to Constance - I merely questioned
why bring up the problems of the US. Australian
multiculturalism is totally different to that of the US,
Europe, Britain, and so on. I have given links as to
the reasons for its success. Here's another one
especially for you:

http://www.uws.edu.au/equity_diversity/equity_and_diversity/tools_and_resources/reportsandpubs/australian_multiculturalism_the_roots_of_its_success

The Conclusion is especially interesting.

Foxy,
Thank you for the link regarding multiculturalism, but it does not explain what the advantages of MC, or diversity, are.

What I am looking for is a concise explanation of how we gain from MC, in practical terms.

Like all other speeches supporting MC, there are hundreds of words that just amount to spin, with no practical examples given. One is expected to see the advantages of diversity and feel enriched from having experienced MC.

You strongly support MC and are good with words, so please convey just how we are advantaged by the diversity of MC.

Foxy,
Japan is considered a mono-cultural society.

You and others consider Australia to be a multi-cultural society.

Do you think we are smarter/more intelligent or have greater physical strength or resistance to disease/infections because of our MC and ethnic diversity?

Australia is multicultural, has been that way for hundreds of years.

It remains a very successful country and one that is prized as a prime destination for both travel and immigration.

We don't need to say anymore about how well multiculturalism has worked here.

Dear Banjo,

We have covered this ground many times in
the past. I've given you many links and other
sources.
I can't do any more for you except to suggest
that you go to your regional library and take
out a book on the subject recommended by a
librarian or you can also Google -
the topic - there's enough on the web.

Jupp, J. "From White Australia to Woomera:
The Story of Australian Immigration," Port Melbourne,
Cambridge University Press.

This book is a good place to start. Get the recently
updated version.

Foxy,

That was tricky of you.

These questions were put to you,
"you have repeatedly cited a novelist as your authority, but where is the relevant training that sets her up as the authority you make her out to be? You continually direct readers to her doctorate (in what?) and commend her 'extensive research' too, but you don't say what research that is and whether it was ever published in any journals of note"

To which your answer was,
"Before podting you really need to do your research.
Dr Eva Sallis is a university lecturer, and highly
qualified to speak on the issues"

Wikipedia says that Dr Sallis is a novelist and "Eva Sallis was born in Bendigo. She has an MA in literature and a PhD in comparative literature from the University of Adelaide".

Why are you deliberately silent on your claimed and often cited (by you) authority's training and expertise? Yet you were very quick to jump in with a post to hose down and dismiss a quote from Robert Putman who has excellent, relevant qualifications. See here,

http://www.gov.harvard.edu/people/faculty/robert-putnam

Then you were back to your broken record dumping of a link instead of answering the question.

Your dogmatism can never allow you to entertain the possibility there may be alternate opinions to your own. Apparently you don't want anyone else to get any other ideas either, hence your furious pace in always posting something, anything, to divert attention away from the subject post.

Yes, thanks Foxy for that link to Dr Sev Ozdowski article, lots of history given.

otb,

You really do have serious problems.

Actually I wasn't even trying to be "tricky,"
Obviously I thought that you would have Googled
Dr Sallis for yourself and would know about her.
Being the intelligent man that you are.

Yes, Dr Eva Sallis is a multi-award winning novelist.
However, had you done your research you would also know
that she's a human rights activist who helped found
the organisation - "Australians Against Racism."
An organisation that seeks to raise public awareness of
human rights and social justice through the media,
arts and education.

Dr Sallis lived in Yemen - while undertaking research for her
PhD. She taught at the University of Adelaide. She also
co-ordinates Ozarabic, an Arabic language course for primary
school children and she is involved with an Aboriginal language
course at Tauonah College. She is working and editing and
publishing Adnyamathanha language and literature resources, -
and the list goes on.

Your attempts to demean Dr Sallis is somewhat puzzling to me.

As for my questioning Constance's use of an American
expounding on problems in America - and what relevance these
had to Australian Multiculturalism - I thought were legitimate
within the context of the discussion - especially since
Constance was the one who brought up the subject of the US.
But it seems to have provoked a vitriolic reaction from yourself.
and accusations of "dogmatism."

I think Sir, you seriously need to take a look at your posts.
And how you're coming across on this forum.

Not a good look.

Suze, I'm afraid you live in the past and should replace words like 'doe's' with 'did' as while the early day migrants were an asset to our nation, in most cases,

today's migrants on the other hand, especially those who have extremist within, have not and I'm afraid that I doubt they ever will as they lack one thing that all true Australians have, that being a love for their fellow man.

Modern day multiculturalism has been a failure and, if we don't take notice of what's happened in other countries before us, it will be at our peril.

While I accept you may call me racist, the reality is there's not much separating racism from realism at times.

Suseonline, Monday, 18 August 2014 11:43:52 AM, "We don't need to say anymore about how well multiculturalism has worked here"

Goodness knows who your Royal 'we' is intended to include. However your dismissive 'Never you mind' attitude is very reminiscent of Joh Bjelke Peterson, the disgraced long term Queensland Premier. Like you, Joh didn't see why there should ever be alternate views, or why the public should ever be consulted on something he had made his mind up on. He slammed the gate too. Many see that as authoritarianism. Some say totalitarianism.

In a democracy the BIG question is why the public never got a say in it. There never was any explanation, nor public consultation on the 'diversity-Australia-has-to-have' and the rigid, extreme multicultural policy that was introduced.

Why was there never a vote on such hugely significant social policy? What prevented the intended extent of it and the ramifications, ever being discussed with the public?

'Suseonline says' is not a sufficient argument at all.

Poirot, you yourself do realize that none-of the currect funding for health comes from Medicare, don't you. It comes from the tax payer, so where it actually goes, within reason, is not the point, as the point is that people have to be weaned from the public tit if we are to prosper.

The age of entitlement is coming to an end.

rehctub,

"today's migrants on the other hand, especially those who have extremist within, have not and I'm afraid that I doubt they ever will as they lack one thing that all true Australians have, that being a love for their fellow man."

And it's attitudes like the butcher's which contribute to perpetuating the differences that exist within community interconnection.

Butcher promotes the insularity - of "true Australian" verses "today's immigrants - who have extremist within"

How's that for tossing all the eggs into one basket?

There's nothing more likely to cause internal community division than the plaintive cries of the fearful and culturally cringe-worthy casting their racial derision from the halls of their comfy ignorance.

How's that for tossing all the eggs into one basket?
Poirot,
That's what they did & look what the Lefties have done to this great country. No more lefties in my basket that's for sure & you Left(ie)-overs can deal amongst yourselves & see how far you get before extinction gets underway.

rehctub,

"The age of entitlement is coming to an end."

Only for the chosen...

Take Joe and the pollies, for instance....

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/taxpayers-footing-bill-on-treasurer-joe-hockeys-15-million-canberra-house/story-fni0cx12-1227026624945

"JOE Hockey has defended his practice of claiming a $270-a-night taxpayer-funded travelling allowance to stay in a Canberra house majority-owned by his wife on the grounds that it is an entirely legitimate practice embraced by scores of Labor MPs.

The Treasurer has legitimately claimed $108,000 in travel allowance for 368 nights over the past four years including many nights for parliamentary sitting weeks where he has stayed at the Canberra house."

How's that for "Entitlement"?

Yep Rehctub, the age of entitlement is coming to an end.

The only question is how soon, & how far will it go. We still have the choice to do it for ourselves, or Greek like, have it done to us if we continue with our present wasteful ways.

Of course we have these lefty ratbags that think money grows on trees, but we also have hugely wasteful sectors that must be wound in. Welfare is just one of them, & probably not the worst.

We have hugely escalating medical costs, as we spend a fortune on high tech medicine, which is counter productive.

We have the crazy business of training nurses in universities, so they become half baked doctors, & we then require another layer of staff to empty bed pans.

We have a burgeoning & mostly useless higher education, sticking thousands at huge expense, through degrees that qualify them for nothing more than a clerical job, or flipping hamburgers.

The public service, [what a misnomer] could be reduced by 60% with advantage. Remember the cries when Newman got rid of 25,000 in Queensland. The world was ending they said. You know, in a couple of weeks no one knew they had gone, & work flowed more quickly with the reduction of in trays.

Then the NGOs, commissions, & committees, whose elimination would only be missed by the lefty press, who would not have meaningless findings to fill column inches in their publications.

Last but not least, we must close the ABC, & send that bunch of leaches out to work. I'd really clap that one.

There would be even less complaint, as the noisy ones would be busy earning their daily bread for a change

You are not being obsessional, now are you, Poirot?

The electors got it wrong did they? LOL

Dear Hasbeen,

You really need to get out more and read from
other sources than what's the current government
propaganda printed in News Corp Ltd. Where the news
is really limited.

Of course the government needs this budget -
by taking from the most vulnerable, health, education,
the disabled, et cetera, to pay for the miilions of
dollars to pay for new fighter planes (US rejects).
The Paid Parental Scheme, Mr Brandis's library,
MP's entitlements and other rorts,
the benefits to the miners and the polluters, and the list
goes on.

And of course get rid of the ABC - you'd rather have an
American owning media in this country, and telling you
what to think. We get it.

In the meantime the voters - are sick and tired of the
theatre of Commissions of Audit, horror budgets,
broken promises, no accountability, and some are going
for the vaudeville of Clive Palmer.

A ripe old mess!

Foxy, "A ripe old mess!"

My goodness, you do have a whole litany of beefs about Australia after all.

You are safe, educated, well-to-do and have travelled extensively. You should be thanking your lucky stars that your folks were offered sanctuary in Australia and took it gratefully.

Third World 'problems' of the educated elite, inflicted with cultural snobbishness and an over-developed (and inappropriate) sense of their own entitlement.

An whining elite who should get off their spreading behinds and go and help someone less fortunate. Put something back, please!

Yes Foxy, a right mess alright.

If only this incoming government could have picked up from where it left off just under seven years ago.

But instead, the people of Australia entrusted the useless talents of the labor green aligance who in just two terms took an axe to our economy and left us in such a mess that, rather than run the country,as it was elected to do, the new government is focusing it's time on trying to clean up the mess.

I'm sure even you would prefer to see our sitting government, regardless of who it is, spend their time improving the likes of health and education, rather than trying to bring many to face the reality that the likes of Gonski were little more than unfunded dreams.

Poirot, if you are calling me racist for trying to protect our peace loving nation and rid it of this scum, those who wish to force their evil ways onto us then I'm proud to be an easy target for you, but no amount of name calling from you can hide the truth. Modern day multiculturalism, in this country at least, has been a failure, simply because those radicals not only disrespect our customs, in our country, but they want us to follow theirs.

Two words, up yours!

Dear rehctub,

You need to get your facts straight.

The "Golden years" of John Howard were not so
"Golden" after-all. They may have left a
surplus - but infrastructure was neglected and
everything was sold (including our gold at
minimal prices) that wasn't nailed down. The
mess had to be cleaned up by guess who? - Labor.

Google Howard's "Golden Years" for yourself.

So - it's not a question of "Up Yours," but
"UP Us All!" With a great big Raspberry to you!

otb,

"You are safe, educated, well-to-do and have travelled extensively. You should be thanking your lucky stars that your folks were offered sanctuary in Australia and took it gratefully."

Can't help yerself, can you.....

It seems Foxy is not allowed to have an opinion without you reminding her how "big it was" of Oz offering her folks some sanctuary.

Do you reckon you might be able to contain yourself ...just a tad. I don't see you referring to other poster's antecedents every time they proffer an opinion.

........

butcher,

"Poirot, if you are calling me racist for trying to protect our peace loving nation and rid it of this scum, those who wish to force their evil ways onto us then I'm proud to be an easy target for you, but no amount of name calling from you can hide the truth...."

I'm not calling you a racist.

I'm calling you an insular and fearful chappie...who spouts run of the mill insular and fearful rhetoric.

And even though you appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that you're some kind of "elite" - the fact is that you're just an ordinary self-obsessed petite bourgeois chappie - the kind who are always suspicious of "foreigners".

Oh - and "up yours!" too.

Hi there all you good folk...

I'd have to say quite unequivocally, I believe we here in Australia have the best public health system in the developed world. Sure the system that has existed for years in the UK does ensure everyone has access to a Doctor, and can gain admission to a hospital if needed. Nevertheless, I still believe we have the edge on them. No doubt there exists problems, but what system doesn't ?

The introduction of our own brand of public health for all, is probably one of the greatest visions ever perceived by an Australian Prime Minister. And it became a reality because of the initiative shown by none other than the indefatigable Mr Gough Whitlam ! And as some of you know, I'm an arch conservative and very much to the 'right' !

And I'd also like to add my own sentiments to those of others, when they express their sincere wish that FOXY'S most recent and hopefully last medical procedure was a 'roaring' success ! :-)

o sung wu,

Too right!...I concur wholeheartedly.

My 87 year-old mum had a simple fall three weeks ago..broke her hip and followed it up with a heart attack.

She received expert care from wonderful and professional people, caring and dedicated. Amazing technology and medication stabilised her for two weeks before the operation to repair her hip could be carried out.

Less than a week after the operation she was allowed home to her retirement unit and has been there now for 6 days - making progress and reunited with her friends and her cat.

She is being visited by the Silver Chain for showering and her friends, and family are supporting her.

And all this, without any of us going bankrupt as is often the outcome in the US.

What a wonderful system we have!

(Just add that the Conservative Govt in the UK has been privatising many services of the NHS in the last few years - and many Brits are up in arms over this. I surmise that the Abbott govt is working up to the same agenda as they haven't taken long to fire the first salvo at Medicare. We need to remain vigilant)

I cited study from a prominent political scientist. To totally dismiss his findings is outright denial and incredulous. The US has not to my knowledge ever considered itself a multicultural country, it’s policies tend to promote assimilation. That should be even more of a reason for ethnic diversity to work better there than here.

I’m not against multiculturism, I just think there should be a limit. That is, I don’t want what could equate to Balkinisation, and a culture of continual complaint in our country. The obsession with diversity has gotten out of hand. Good old neighbourhoods have now become less friendly. Human nature is instinctively tribal.

I also wonder why we have the fastest growing population (due to big immigration) in the western world that even surpasses some developing countries such as Indonesia. And why is it hardly questioned? The average person complaining only becomes voiceless (and fearful) as they are always shot down by the greedy and the snobs who throw petards of character assassinations at average Joe. So there is never any reasoned debate. It all affects our quality of life in the end in all sorts of ways. Not to mention housing prices for one where we now have the most expensive real estate in the world.

Sorry if I have gone off topic, but there are detrimental implications to rapid growth and what I find to be aggressive diversity. There has to be a balance to everything and immigration must slow down.

Hi Poirot, I am glad to hear your mum is doing well.
You are right to say we need to remain vigilant with this Government re healthcare though.
Community health care providers like Silver Chain have to charge fees for service of about $8 a visit by the Government, which is not too bad for most people, unless you look at those who require a daily visit. This would cost pensioners $56 a week, which many could not afford.

If you are in the unfortunate position of being a part-pensioner or self-funded retiree, then you are charged $35 a visit by the Government (for nursing, cleaning , respite care, or personal care). Imagine if you needed several services?

The hospitals are told they can't hold on to elderly patients who need extra care to stay home, so they are rushed home ASAP, supposedly to have these community services.
What happens if they can't afford them?

The moral of the story is to spend all you have by the time you retire, and/or pour it all into your own home, which is so far not considered an asset for community service provision purposes.....yet!.

Suseonline,
You said, "We don't need to say anymore about how well multiculturalism has worked here".

Seeing you think that the benefits of MC are so obvious perhaps you can relate them so we all can share them. Note I am referring to viable and practical benefits not some 'feel good' feelings for our enrichness. Why is it that 'diversity' is the end goal of MC and to what benefit?

As well you claim MC has worked well here, so what is your yardstick? on what do you base your measure. Is it simply that we have had less civic problems than European countries. Less riots and less burnt cars and less girls raped.

Frankly, I consider MC a misnomer as we fully accept no other culture and our cultural foundations are still based on the Westminster system. We are certainly multi-racial but not multicultural

Foxy,
Yes I have raised this subject quite a few times and with you because you are the one that often praises multiculturalism but fail to state what the advantages Australia gains. To simply state there are benefits without saying what they are is not good enough.

Each time you have referred to someone else who again does not show what the actual benefits are.

Therefore I must conclude that you do not know what practical benefits MC provides for us. Perhaps you envisage that having the widest possible diversity of ethnic groups is, in itself, advantageous. Just how is another question.

So now I ask others to relate the advantages of MC, if they can. I have just asked Suseonline and perhaps Paul and Steele would care to outline the benefits as they see them.

Hi there POIROT...

I'm also glad to hear that your dear Mum is doing so well at her age ! You only have one set of parents, and when they're gone, well that's it. As time goes by, your memories of them do fade a little, until a particular event or something said, can immediately evokes recollections of some happier or more sorrowful events. No, it's so important we care for, and honour them while we can of course, as it's far too late when they ultimately pass.

Seeing you think that the benefits of.... something..... are so obvious - perhaps you can relate them so we all can share them.

Good statement. I was listening to radio recently where a physiotherapist said that if people lean forward less - and look up more this flows on to their mind. It literally changed my mind immediately.

I feel 100% differently - particularly as I have had to go to the Physiotherapy Department in the Royal Adelaide Hospital after having a bad seizure and waking up (after hurting my back) very badly and being in hideous pain.

Great job Ms or Mrs Physiotherapist on radio and those in the hospital!

Banjo, I doubt anything I can say will change your mind about multiculturalism, especially as you don't seem to know what the term means.
Why not look it up and check out the history of multiculturalism in Australia, which you have chosen to ignore.

Obviously, the first culture of Australia was the Aboriginal culture, but you obviously don't think we should all have stayed with that culture?

So, the culture we have in Australia today amalgamates the cultures of all the immigrants who have arrived in Australia since they first arrived hundreds of years ago.
They brought with them the foods, lifestyles, cultures and religions which have been absorbed into Australian culture.

How you can imagine that all immigrants who settle into Australia just forget the cultural practices of their country of birth is beyond me.
As long as everyone follows our laws and respects others beliefs, then it shouldn't matter where they come from.

How's that for "Entitlement"?
Poirot,
that's wrong. In my area this is being done every day & those who say something get shafted by those abusers who are largely Labor. I find ind curious that you never made any comments when I brought up this subject time & time again but now that you found a non-labor mutt doing it you emerge in your hypocritical glory.

Foxy, why do you think Howard sold off assets, to pay down what was then labors record debt, dwarfed only by the last labor governments debt.

....As long as everyone follows our laws and respects others beliefs, then it shouldn't matter where they come from.

Suze, you should have this framed and place a copy in every room of your house, because that is precisely the fundamental flaw in modern day multiculturalism, too many who come here today not only disrespect our laws and customs, but they also have an agenda to force their violent ways onto us.

This is why modern day MC, in Australia at least, is a failure, because certain groups come to to sponge off us, have little or nothing to offer and not content with just disrespecting us, they hate us.

Sorry, but if I was in charge they would not make it to the gate, let alone through it.

Poirot, these so called Australians, born here through Muslim parents, who leave to fight in their parents home land are living proof that MC has failed us, simply because they have not gained their hatred for fellow mankind from our teachings.

That religion/faith, call it what you like has no place here.

Lol!...rehctub...

"Foxy, why do you think Howard sold off assets, to pay down what was then labors record debt, dwarfed only by the last labor governments debt."

Around half of the debt confronting the Howard Govt was left over from Fraser's govt (you know, the one where Johnny Howard was Treasurer)

"The first point to note is that the $96 billion of debt inherited by the Howard Government from the Labor Party in 1996 comprised around $39.9 billion of debt accumulated by the Fraser Government under the Treasury-ship of Mr Howard and left to the Hawke Government in 1983! See Table 3 of Budget Paper 10 for more details.

As I discussed a while back, http://alturl.com/4o973 , when the Coalition talks of the $96 billion of Labor debt that it inherited, recall that just under half of it was in fact Liberal Party debt that was a hangover from the Fraser era that ended in 1983."

http://thekouk.com/blog.html#.U_Ka4meVogL

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for your support.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother but I'm glad that
she's doing well. Stay strong.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thanks also to you for all your good wishes.
You have a good heart.

Dear Banjo,

I'm not interested in continuing to answer the same questions
regarding MC. Been there, done that.
If you don't get it now - you never will.

Dear rehctub,

Poirot has provided you with enough information
what you choose to do with it however, - is up to you.

Dear Constance,

Please allow me to apologise.

I did not mean to hurt your feelings by
questioning why you choose to cite an
American discussing American problems.
We lived and worked in Los Angeles for
over ten years (my children were born there).
And multiculturalism did not have specific
programs at the federal level - (except
at the school level in some states) and the
advertised myth of America being a
"melting pot," was a myth as was their theory
of "assimilation." It does not compare with
the programs that we've had in this country.
Thereby the reason for my initial comment.

It was not meant to insult you in any way.

http://www.boundless.com/sociology/textbooks/boundless-sociology-textbook/race-and-ethnicity-10/race-in-the-u-s-84/a-multicultural-society-493-3316/

Suse,
Yes, I do know what multiculturalism means, but given your praise and enthusiasm for MC I am surprised that you don't, or at least cannot state how we benefit from the policy. Not one advantage did you state. Even I, a non supporter, can see there are a greater choice of eating places.

No, I do not think our colonials should have embraced aboriginal culture. Some aspects I don't like, such as deflowering virgins with a wooden dildo followed by mass rape and the splitting boys penises with a sharp stone does not impress me. Polygamy and some foods were another downside.

So it appears that I will have to accept that neither you nor Foxy can outline the advantages of MC, let alone define them. It is strange that you embrace something yet cannot state its benefits. Oh, one of Foxy's links did give a pretty good history of MC in Aus.

Still looking to find the advantages of MC and diversity.

Rehctub , if your only defence is to come back with the minuscule number of men going back to their original country to fight their wars, then you really have no answers.

The Government is coming up with laws to deal with that problem now, so yet again we will continue on as a successful multicultural country that deals with any problems with our mix of people as they come along.

You and your buddies' are just suspiciously paranoid about anyone who is not a white, Christian, Liberal, gun-toting, straight male!
I still think you would be more comfortable in the KKK heartland of the US of A....

Banjo

u have obviously done your homework. There are even more horryfying aspects of the culture that probably don't need mentioning. You obviously have not been brainwashed by the academia who only ever find fault with the wicked British.

Dear runner,

The historian can establish that an act took place
on a certain day, but this by historical standards
constitutes only chronology.

The moment the historian begins to look critically
at motivation, circumstances, cotext, or any other
such considerations, the product becomes
unacceptable for one or another camp of readers.

Suseonline,

How many terrorists does it take? You are very casual about other people's lives.

Holsworth military base
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/barracks-terror-three-should-have-got-life-20130617-2odqf.html

Multiculturalism is promoted by the hangers-on brigade in the false & futile hope that it'll win them favours when the crap hits the fan. Have we got news for you suckers ! Don't believe us ? Try the western suburbs for a week.

Dear Suse,

I admire your posts.

Sadly I think we're probably wasting our time
in our attempts to get through to some people.
Still I guess we have to try for the sake of
decency.

Sadly however there is a mind set that exists which
allows some people to think that simply because
they were born within these borders, they are
somehow entitled to enjoy a greater degree of respect
and dignity than they are prepared to acknowledge
are the birth right of all the world's people.

Foxy sweetie, I'm afraid I have to return your words to you.

I will say to the smarter ones here your words, "Sadly I think we're probably wasting our time in our attempts to get through to some people. Still I guess we have to try for the sake of decency".

You may have noticed I have given up posting on these subjects. If I were still posting I would have to say that it is your & the other ladies inability to see the facts that will ultimately result in harm to my grand kids & indeed to your own grand kids.

I can see it is a waste of time talking to you ladies, so I won't bother.

Hasbeen,
I can't recall when I started to post on OLO but it has been quite a while. I do know that I was opposed to multiculturalism right from the time Grassby first voiced the proposal. I also recall voicing strong opinion about the 'illegals' and high immigration very early on.

You are correct in that no amount of logic and common sense will not alter the minds of some people, especially those that disregard facts and whose opinions are based on ideology. Their support for the illegals and global warming is, in fact, religion for them.

However, you will be sorely missed if you stop posting. I look forward to your posts as I do those of O sung Wu and a few others. Do you remember Yabby, he also posted common sense. I have learnt a lot from Ludwig about over population and immigration.

It is worth noting that many more people read these pages than post here and no doubt they discuss topical items with their friends and workmates, so your opinions may reach far more than you think.

That is why I keep posting on the subjects that interest me. As well it is worth knowing what those that may be opposed to your views are saying. So I hope you will just keep posting, I think OLO needs posters like you that have varied and practical life experiences to base opinions on.

wasting our time in our attempts to get through to some people.
Foxy,
You're a real puzzle. You can see the problem, you can see what should be done about it yet you choose to continue being part of the problem. Talk about compex !

@Foxy, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 8:15:04 PM,

Your second para is a copy and paste from one of those 'independents' you follow.

It is absolute cr@p. In any event its author was sinking the slipper into the US after 9/11. How sad is that?

BTW Foxy, didn't you dismiss another poster's quote from a very legitimate source, a Harvard Professor I recall, because you claimed he was American? But here you are, doing the same and going a leap further, cherry-picking and applying the words entirely out of the original context.

You have the audacity to lecture others (and often) on how to conduct a debate.

Hasbeen,
Thinking about it, I recall you relating your knowledge of sailing to me and others at the time Jessica Watson was on her round the world voyage. Never been on a sailing boat and only a few times on a powered vessel, your information was a great help for me in understanding the terminology that was being used on her voyage. For example, I did not know what a 'knockdown' meant until you enlightened me.

I have also enjoyed learning about your other life experiences.

Hello,

I'm now starting to notice a number of people who seem to 'keep complaining'.

The matter about 'political comments' and 'selling a message' in general was discussed on radio today.

This included how some will refer to homelessness.... but provide not even a basic solution, youth suicide.... but provide no basic solution.... unemployment - but provide no basic solution..... education improvements..... but of course no solution..... I could go on, and on, and on.....

OR people on this page and in Australia can be PRO-ACTIVE and start working together more towards coming to some good SOLUTIONS that involve the community and all levels of government.

Or we can keep complaining..... complaining..... complaining...... until we are all exhausted or even possibly DEAD. Now that's not good.

Hasbeen, you have plenty of other paranoid people here to spread your own paranoia re multiculturalism, so don't sweat it if you stay away.

Foxy, you are right. We are really flogging several dead horses here on this subject.
I will leave them alone now to flog each other!
Cheers,
Suse.

Thanks for that Banjo. I am not going completely, just I find it a waste of time & energy to try to discuss some topics, even with posters I admire & like, when our experiences make us have totally different points of view.

I find it even less interesting to bother with some of the very nasty people, whose only objective appears to be point scoring.

As you would also know, some are just too dumb to bother with, & some are so brainwashed that they obviously don't think, just repeat the preaching.

There have been some like Belly who I miss. I don't think we agreed more than 5% of the time, but you could always respect the man. You could see how his opinions had been molded, & respect them, even in disagreement.

There are others who hold some far right & some far left ideas. These obviously have formed their own opinions, which makes them much more interesting.

Nathan, here's some suggested solutions.
Homelessness, make parents responsible for their children and, if their children are found to be homeless, then return them, even fine the parents if needs be because after all said and done, they are their kids, not societies and, I would suggest that most who are homeless, start out as homeless kids.

Suicide, tough one, but agin many cases of this are caused by il parenting in the first place.

Unemployment. Place an immediate hold on all 457 visas and, make the unemployed move to where the jobs are, again, poor parenting is a contributor to this problem.

Quarantining welfare would also be a step in the right direction as it would hinder those who adjust their lifestyles to what they feel is their 'entitled income' the dole.

Education
The system is broken and to simply throw more money at a broken system (Gonski) is useless.

A better solution would be to provide affordable tutoring to those who want to better themselves. Once again poor parenting is a contributor to this issue as well.

Can you see the link Nathan?

Hasbeen, the majority of Australians have no idea just how close we come, as a nation, to be no existent as we are today if not for the extreme efforts of our forefathers in stopping the Japanese from concurring a tiny pacific island.

Imagine trying to do the same today with out bleeding hearts and do gooders brigades, ready and willing to defend any person who they see as il treated, even if it's a person who relentlessly follows the same faith that harbors the lion share of the worlds terrorism.

The sad reality is that nobody can pick a terrorist from a non terrorist and, within that faith, many change from one to another, even if they claim to be Australian because they were born here.

While I accept that not all Muslims are terrorists, I suggest that the overwhelming percentage of terrorists are Muslims, and there in lies the problem.

The religion/ whatever they refer to it by has not place here.

Dear Hassie,

We see things differently on many issues.
However, at least we're still talking.
That's something. The concept of "mutual
respect" is important.

Dear Suse,

I think I'll join you.
We both know that if we have a racialised
immigration policy - we will have a racially
divided society.

See you on another discussion.

otb,

You seem to have a distinct cognitive make-up -
a hostile attributional bias - a kind of
paranoia. Unfortunately I can't help you.
You need to seek professional help as I've
told you in the past.

Take care.

Foxy,

You don't like it when you are challenged over cherrypicking and long copy and pastes without attribution.

The solutions would be obvious to a librarian, one would have thought.

otb,

As Poirot pointed out some time ago to you -
you just can't help yourself. And like all
bullies you need a victim - and I've been
the "lucky" one chosen by you. That could have
worked - if I valued your opinion or thought
you were an equal. However I really don't
care what you think or have to say. I on occassion
enjoy condesending to respond to you - usually
I simply scroll past your posts.

I love nothing better than a challenge.
However, you're not in any position to do that.
But feel free to keep trying - and depending on
what sort of a mood I'm in - I'll either reply,
or not.

I'll either reply,
or not.
Foxy,
You forgot to add if you can muster a reply that is, mostly you just copy & paste. Do you actually have an opinion yourself ? How your opinion on what we should do with the many hangers-on depleting our reserves ? Your view please not some link. Thank you.

Dear Individual,

On the internet many people post crap.

You're one of those who regularly
regards all academics as "morons."
(One of your favourite words). Your best
contribution to this forum since I've
been a member has been to consistently
point out the faults of others.

I shall take you seriously - only when you
produce something intelligent, well-reasoned,
and not illogical or abusive.

Try again.

cont'd ...

As for those "hangers-on" depleting our resources?

That you'll have to take up with the government.
And you're in with a good chance because they seem
to believe that people either sink or swim. And if they
sink, well that's too bad. Because according to them,
welfare is not good for business.

There you go.

Foxy,
You're plain & simply incapable of offering solutions.

Dear Individual,

In other words the reality is you
don't want to get gritty and
try to find a solution yourself.
You expect others to do it for you.
Well - old chap -
There's no quick fix and there's
rarely an easy path. And at your age
you should already know that. Unless
of course you've only every worked for
the public service. That would explain
a great deal.

Foxy, "Unless of course you've only every worked for the public service. That would explain a great deal"

LOL. Foxy slandering all public servants while forgetting that she was a bureaucrat herself as a librarian.

Contradictory.

Dogmatism and compartmentalised thinking.

otb,

My working life has been vast and varied.
Don't make assumptions about people you
don't know (or ever will). You're out
of your league.

BTW - my previous post was addressed to
Individual - not you, and it regarded HIS
working experience.

cont'd ...

BTW: For your information - it's
Individual who's always been very critical
of the public service in his past posts.
Had you have known that perhaps you'd have
realised I was being facetious - and having
a go at him. But as Poirot says - you just
can't help yourself as far as I'm concerned.
You've got to keep repeating your little
mantra about "dogmatism" - woof, woof!

Lucky me!

Foxy,

You could wriggle out of anything and turn the blame on someone else.

You could be ex-PM Julia Whatshername's mini-me.

otb,

Thank You for the great compliment.
I admired our previous PM very much.
She had the characteristics that are
necessary in a PM, such as initiative,
leadership, negotiating ability, willingness
to take risks, and persuasiveness.

I'm so flattered that I remind you of her.

Funny though - you don't remind me of anyone
(past or present) that I've ever come across.
But then I don't frequent the police-courts
very often.

Rehctub,

The underlying element of your last post was to complain. That was obvious. Making simplistic comments doesn't help either.

It's like saying certain governments worldwide do certain things and then putting Australia into that category.

People who want to put 'all into one basket' - its a very clever debating technique to avoid the topic "Too many people complain in Australia".

But I'm not going be distracted by this attitude - I'm going to keep advocating for positive change - and working towards changing the mindset of many Australian people - simply that we DO live in a lucky country, when you look at poor, war torn and third world countries.

We need to help each other more and not constantly BLAME government or people for everything - unless there is strong case to do so.

Dear Nathan,

You're absolutely spot on.

Peter Costello pointed out in his Memoirs:

"We do have many unsolved problems in this country -
especially addressing Indigenous disadvantage and
dealing with the structure of our federalism.
We must deal with those to move forward as a free,
fair and vibrant society."

"I have no doubt we can find the solutions that suit us,
provided we don't succumb to the siren calls of
demagogues, charlatans and ideologues."

The achievements of the past decades have laid an
extraordinary foundation. Properly preserved and built on,
we now have oportunities we never had before in Australia's
history. The best years for our country are still in
front of us.

Interesting Foxy, when did he say that?

Nathan, you asked for solutions. I am not complaining other than to suggest people, especially poor parents are a huge cause of many people's misery. I personally am not miserable. I have a wife of almost 30 years, two great, now adult kids and now a very special grandson.

Life's great.

rehctub,

"Nathan, you asked for solutions. I am not complaining other than to suggest people, especially poor parents are a huge cause of many people's misery...."

I find it strange, in that case, that your main ambition in life appears to be plugging for a system that would make them "poorer".

"Life's great"

Well, you never know it...I've never heard anyone sound more like Ebenezer Scrooge - and we all know what a happy and fulfilled soul he was.

Dear rehctub,

You ask - when did Peter Costello say that ?

As I wrote in my previous post - he stated that
in his book, "The Costello Memoirs."

If you find the statement - then I suggest you
get it out on loan from your local library.
Reading the entire book is even more interesting.

cont'd ...

Oooops - my apologies - I sent the previous post too
quickly. I left out the word "interesting."

I meant to say that "if you find that statement
interesting - then you should take out the
entire book - it's even more interesting.

Poirot,

After seeing a commercial (for A Current Affair), it covered a woman who said all she can live on was McDonalds at $5.00 per day.

But I'm not going to critise her for her current lifestyle - I'm going to be positive and offer alternative solutions on where people can go, and get them out of a complaining, negative mindset.

I can easily (as a vegetarian) make three easy dishes at $5.00 per day of a whole plate size I know this because I do a lot of my own cooking.

She could could take some of my suggestions (I'm not suggesting going vegetarian) to save money - and the recipes are easy, nice dishes to make and fresh and very cheap as well.

There are lots of good, cheap recipes on the internet. As politicians don't inspire many at present, we need people in our community to help and inspire others to move forward.

Yes, Nathan,

"After seeing a commercial (for A Current Affair), it covered a woman who said all she can live on was McDonalds at $5.00 per day.'

MacDonalds provides the fare that once comprised porridge, gruel and turnips....

It's the generic Western symbol for the loss of local community, food preparation, health and culture.

This woman has to eat - and all she can afford is MacDonalds. So she will eventually become very obese and sick....a particularly modern Western malady.

Did you ever see the film "Super Size Me"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersize_Me

"Super Size Me is a 2004 American documentary film directed by and starring Morgan Spurlock, an American independent filmmaker. Spurlock's film follows a 30-day period from February 1 to March 2, 2003 during which he ate only McDonald's food. The film documents this lifestyle's drastic effect on Spurlock's physical and psychological well-being, and explores the fast food industry's corporate influence, including how it encourages poor nutrition for its own profit.

Spurlock ate at McDonald's restaurants three times per day, eating every item on the chain's menu at least once. Spurlock claimed he consumed an average of 20.92 megajoules or 5,000 kcal (the equivalent of 9.26 Big Macs) per day during the experiment. As a result, the then-32-year-old Spurlock gained 24½ lbs. (11.1 kg), a 13% body mass increase, a cholesterol level of 230, and experienced mood swings, sexual dysfunction, and fat accumulation in his liver."

"On Day 21, Spurlock has heart palpitations. His internist, Dr. Daryl Isaacs, advises him to stop what he is doing immediately to avoid any serious health problems..."

"The documentary was nominated for an Academy Award for Documentary Feature"

Nathan, when I said 'poor parents' what I meant was poor parenting, as even well off parents can have poor parenting skills.

I will continue at a latter time.

So Foxy, So I'm guessing he wasn't referring to the hear and now, because what we now have is a huge debt, a dwindling revenue system, a decreasing demand for our minerals and a few years until we loose our car industries.

Sorry, but I just can't get much out of that to suggest we are in great shape.

Dear rehctub,

I think Peter Costello was being optimistic
about our future. But you'd have to read his
book and make up your own mind. From my reading
it seemed to me that he was a very positive
sort of bloke. He was a great admirer of Sir Robert
Menzies. And I do believe that Costello did believe
that "the best years for our country are still in
front of us."

Costello did also say, "We are in a relentlessly
competitive world and we should aim to have taxes
and spending as low as possible, consistent with
the standard of health, education, defence and
security that our public is justly entitled to
receive."

Read the book for yourself.

"MacDonalds provides the fare that once comprised porridge, gruel and turnips...." No it does not. If we take that line no one will change their life in this country.

I know my skills on basic cooking work well - and I want to get that message out there, that people can make a difference. For example I won a mushroom creative cooking competition. People had to put in a written entry about mushrooms and I won. I realised why. I have lots of fantastic delicious mushroom recipes I eat. At the end of the session were given a few minutes to talk and I spoke passionately about mushrooms!

For example a day of three dish recipes (that are under $5.00 in total) can include:

1. Breakfast: Easy cooked oats, half a fresh orange, a banana, a piece of toast (drizzled with healthy oil) and a glass of milk or water.

2. Lunch: A salad sandwich (of any type) - basic and cheap but nice and healthy to eat. Also include an apple with that.

3. Dinner: Spicy lentils cooked with rice. Simple. Curry powder mixed with 1/3 - 1/2 cup of water made into a paste in a saucepan. Add cooked split red lentils. Serve with cooked rice. Have water or milk with the dish. This recipe came from a Heart Foundation cookbook.

McDonald's does not need to dominate a life. I believe in a positive "food forward" approach that is easy, fast and achievable.

MacDonalds and most other fast food purveyors are to health in peacetime what the Fifth Column was in wartime.

Nathan,

"No it does not. If we take that line no one will change their life in this country."

Excusez-moi....but my reference "MacDonalds provides the fare that once comprised porridge, gruel and turnips...."...was meant to convey that that was the fare of the poorer members of society - especially those who found themselves in the hastily concocted urban conglomerations at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution - who didn't have the time, knowledge or access to more wholesome preparations.

I'm very pleased that you eat well...but many people in Australia, it's a shame to say, have been dragged up on a fare of takeaway garbage - and spend more time watching cooking shows than actually cooking food.

I'm all for promoting healthy eating habits...but I have my doubts as to whether the lady who opts for affordable McDonald's is the type who is going to go to the trouble that you obviously do. She's probably addicted to all the "interesting" ingredients as well. It takes a bit of doing to wean people off the trans fats (and goodness knows what else)...not impossible, but a challenge just the same.

The best time to start is in childhood. I'm not confident about that - when all one has to do is glimpse what busy parents throw into a lunch box these days....very little fresh, mostly prepackaged glutinous and sweet.

One has to be passionate about such things - as you obviously are : )

rehctub,

I am out of this thread however I thought you may be interested in this,

<Child psychologist Dr Michael Carr-Gregg lashes out against ‘crappy parenting’ in new book

One of Australia’s leading psychologists has issued a damning assessment of Australian parents: you are doing a crap job.
Dr Michael Carr-Gregg’s new book, Strictly Parenting, includes a chapter titled “The Unfortunate Rise of Crap Parenting”. In it he details some of the “dysfunctional, over-involved parenting styles that have emerged in the past two decades”.
As Dr Carr-Gregg notes in the book, some people “may be offended by the term ‘crap’, arguing that parenting is hard enough without psychologists slagging them off for being incompetent”.
“But the truth is that they are crappy,” he said.
The problem, he told the Herald Sun, is a “vitamin ‘N’ deficiency in Australian parenting”.
“Learn to say no,” he said.
...>

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/child-psychologist-dr-michael-carrgregg-lashes-out-against-crappy-parenting-in-new-book/story-fnii5s3x-1227033801984

yes, otb...I saw that earlier on the ABC site.

I think, however, that rehctub is not so concerned about "over-involved parenting styles that have emerged in the past two decades”.

.....more likely from those of a middle-class background.

He's more concerned about under-involved parenting styles.

Problem being (as far as that article is concerned) that children are over-indulged and cossetted, driven here and there and deposited in organised activity.

(keeping in mind we're a "consumer society" where conspicuous consumption rules.....we're raised from the cradle to consume. Every facet of our education system and lifestyle is geared to promote that reality)

There is no room left for spontaneity in children's social roles in modern Australia...and if they are left to their own devices, our communities lack the cohesion and interaction that were features of earlier generations. Once was a time that children could roam around a neighbourhood - people knew each other, and were in many cases related. If Johnny committed a misdemeanor several blocks from home, he'd be chastised and delivered back to his parents - or at least news of his misdemeanor would be.

Challenges of the modern West, where autonomy, independence and individuality rule - at the expense of healthy communal relations.

My daughter-in-law has a toddler who
we're very concerned about and I would
love to buy the book that OTB has recommended.
It sounds ideal - and we've been trying to
get the message across to her and our son for
some time. However, I hesitate - because the
last time we tried talking to both of them -
they became highly offended.

Any advice?

Should I just buy the book - or stay out of it?

"...was meant to convey that that was the fare of the poorer members of society - especially those who found themselves in the hastily concocted urban conglomerations at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution - who didn't have the time, knowledge or access to more wholesome preparations."

We are not living in the industrial revolution anymore.

Far too many people today want to constantly look to the past (like even John Howard or Julia Gillard) and not towards a positive future or a solution.

Taking a negative approach to living doesn't help anybody - nor complaining on behalf of somebody else. I would even suggest visiting a Library (an historical institution still in use in 2014) as there are free books to borrow and internet available - regardless of a person's financial situation.

As I said from the start of my post: "I was really impressed with what was suggested (re my medical situation) thanking (my Neurologist). I said I was was really impressed with the fact that we have so many intelligent specialists here.

People need to consider the only way to overcome one desire is through a greater desire displacing the previous one. This is something to think about and take action upon in all parts of our lives to get action going today.

What a great thread Nathan! Yes, Australians complain a lot. And blame others. We are constantly being told we are in a dire state, a crisis no less. It's bleak, bleak, bleak.

We are made to believe Mining companies are going to leave Australia if they are made to pay a reasonable tax on profits for instance, so we cannot raise revenue from them, which is the biggest con of course. The carbon tax had to go, though hearing Helen Ridout on Q&A last Monday, this price signaling is not as hated by business as Liberal voters have been led to believe. We cancel price signals for some, but not others. Interesting isn't it?

It all comes down to how to raise revenue. To raise money to pay for services. That's what we have governments for, to provide an environment and opportunities for its citizens to reach their highest potential. That's good for the individual and good for that nation's society.

Otb. It's embarrassing how personal you become when you disagree. Emotional name-calling is not a rebuttal. Neither is alluding to 'affirmative action' going to diminish weight to someone's argument. We have a few emotional 'conservatives' on this forum, but you always resort to ad hominems.

Foxy, on that book. Don't buy it. But a book I can really recommend, my kids loved it and so do adults, is 'the virtues project'. A great book that can be used throughout the child's growing years. It's the only 'parenting' book I used. I can give you more info if you want.

Nathan,

I was using it as a "comparison".

I would suggest "visiting a Library"...I'm all for "personal human interaction" as well as online interaction.

.....

Foxy,

What's you concern?

Parental "spoiling" or some kind of developmental issue?

lol!...if it's developmental issue, then parents do become offended quite easily. Our youngun started reading fluently at 4 - and had only started talking 22 months earlier.

Kindy teacher said perhaps ASD...etc.

I thought "who do you think you are?" :)

Eventually did my own research and harassed Paed for referral.

Yup...high functioning ASD....but since we homeschool, he's fine - no meds, well adjusted, bright and happy.

Regarding spoiling - a bit of delayed gratification does wonders...took son 7 months to save up for an ipad...using his pocket money. Great stuff, as he values it so much.

(He's itching to go back to the city so he can go to the State Record Archives - as he's a History buff.)

Dear Yvonne,

Could you supply me with all the details of the
book you recommend - author, title, et cetera.
I'd be very interested in
taking a look at it in a bookshop.
Your recommendation is good enough for me.

Dear Poirot,

Our grandson is only young - he's going to be two in
December. However he's very, very, spoiled - (has more toys
than any toyshop). All he has to do is open his mouth
and cry - and he gets everything he wants. We feel
that they are teaching the child bad habits.
I keep thinking - give it a rest Gran - he's only a
baby - but deep down I am worried.

Foxy-Gran : ),

It's got a lot to do with being part of a fortunate society.

Parents are often gratifying themselves just as much as they think they are the child.

I'm more concerned about the types of toys presented for young children these days....something like a bowl or a box is far more versatile and developmentally sound that a "toy" made to do a limited number of actions - and then cast aside when the thrill is over.

(We're bloody moving house...so packing...been here ten years, so I'm out of practice:)

Dear Poirot,

You name it - the child has it.
Every toy imaginable. His father keeps
buying them on a weekly basis.
At least they'll get some use -
eventually. My daughter-in-law is expecting
another child in November and perhaps that
might relieve the situation as well.

Moving house sounds exciting.
Hard work - but exciting.

All the Best.

Foxy, here's a link:
https://virtuesshop.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=26&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=63

I came to this by accident through some friends who are Baha'i, some 20 years ago. Every virtue starts with a quote from one of the major religions. So, for me it also added the benefit of introducing my kids, when they were older, to different religions and their 'books'.

As they got into teenage years, when we discussed some concept, especially when they were conflicted with what they knew I wanted to hear and an issue with a friend, it allowed them to make decisions for themselves by themselves.

I could tell you lots of stories of experiences with the children. Including being praised by a young child when they noticed I 'practiced' a particular virtue! That's the thing. It's not about noticing what is NOT done: 'that's not respectful' etc, but what is.

I had my little 4 year old girl, who a teacher was concerned was not being assertive enough (that's also a virtue by the way, so I was afire and aflame to pull that one out) with a particular child at school, explain patiently to me that this boy did not understand about tact and caring, but he will understand that too one day. I stood corrected.

Sorry, Foxy, I also wanted to send you to the main link: http://www.virtuesproject.com/family.html

Dear Yvonne,

Thank You so much.

What a gift you've given me.

Bless You!

Foxy, you'll love it I'm sure. And although it comes from a theological basis, as an atheist I had no problems relating to any of the text. At times I substituted 'universe' for creator or 'good' for God. As they became older discussions on spirituality etc added another really interesting dimension. My children made up their own minds. So, we have atheists, actively practicing Christians and one sort of Buddhist. We have great and stimulating discussions as you can imagine!

Foxy,

Regardless of whatever actions you take and I would suggest that many parents are inclined to reject well-intentioned gifts of books as judgmental (perhaps a mite unfair but usually they are in a tender place themselves), so beware, the better alternatives I reckon are:

- offer to relieve them with assistance at home. Merely showing up to take over duties and let mum have a rest is a god-send; and,

- take whatever opportunities present to take the toddler for fun excursions that give him the space and time to unload that computer in his head and process things.

Examples of the latter are sausage bbq in the park where he has things to climb and birds to feed, or building sand castles and wading the shallows of an estuary.

Women like to mother and there is a time and place for that. However in this case the little fellow could likely do with physical and mental space. Many people but I trust not yourselves try to entertain children. Whereas they should try to be in the background, only intervening where necessary.

Books.
Never read him a 'lesson' book. Just read anything fun and re-read. Poetry is good. Old is good, A Child's Garden of Verses by Robert Louis Stevenson. The rhythm and repetition are soothing and allow the imagination, freedom. Wynken, Blynken, and Nod By Eugene Field

I don't know if this is going to mean anything to you, but there is tremendous joy in the mundane, shared. He can help with cooking, you will be surprised. Even if the mashed potato has to be set aside and chilled with milk so he can do it.

otb,

You never fail to surprise me.

But this time in a good way.

What a lovely post from you and such good advice.

Thank You so much.

Bless You - you've made my evening.

I was feeling rather low, and you cheered me up
enormously.

Nice bit of interaction taking place here...

Well said, otb.

Foxy,

np

You know that the toddler is already your excuse to go and do things that you enjoyed or missed as a child, eg., going to pantomimes and so on. There are adult lines in some if you listen.

What about play dough or slime, did you ever put some real time into those? Recipes available from the Net. Waterbased paint on a brick or concrete wall or path, hose off some time later. Footprint art on paper.

Making watermelon balls, the list is endless...and cheap. As a clue, at a young age my kids and their mates helped making damper and ate it with cooled home made pea or lentil soup (sorted by them) or honey later.

Just make a list of what you want to do and he can fit in as he wishes.

otb,

Thank You.

Wonderful suggestions.

I shall definitely take them all on board.