Well I never thought I would see the day that a labor leader, a former union heavy weight at that, would call for his failing party to cut the cord.

Gee, things must be crook!

The truth is that the unions are so much on the nose that even the likes of Bill Shorten can see just how damaging these clowns are.

As for reforming his party, the best advice I can give is to throw out the faceless men and listen to his people, not his minders, as they too are poison.

Wasn't Bill Shorten Sr a Painter and Docker back in the days of the Kane Brothers, Billy Longley and all?
The Unions have always been full of crooks and gangsters, Labor has always been full of Unionists, 2+2=4.

And another thing, these days there are very few working class people involved in the Unions, it's all middle class, middle management types, I actually had dinner the other week with a guy I've known for 20 years who's just become a Union organiser, at one point he was trying to explain to me how these middle class, university educated, mostly female "unionists" are the new Proletariat..I had to laugh, and he got a little bit cross with me.

Jay, the problem is, unions are on the nose and without compulsory unionism in many workplaces, they woukd be reduced to little more than a local bowls club.

You see when a vote is taken, say 200 employees and, just 101 decide to strike, the other 99 also have to go without pay, all while the unionists are getting paid, sometimes receiving penalties for increased stress.

The days of the union are numbered, which is a shame really, because they DID do a good job in gaining decent rewards for members and non members alike, but, some got greedy and just couldn't resist the temptation of millions in the kitty.

They saw themselves as above the law.

Dear rehctub,

Corruption exists in all sorts of organisations in
this country, from sports clubs, charities, political
parties, to the big-end of town. Unions on the whole
do the job they're supposed to do - represent their
members. There are many people who are members of a
union who have never been put in a position where they've
had to go out on strike. Yes, people do get frustrated
when the unions do their job badly, however, I think that
most people do support without reservation the right of
all working people to join together so as to preserve and
protect their livelihoods. As the voters reactions to
WorkChoices in this country proved.

Of course, unions need to be more sensitive to the realities
of modern economic conditions. Sectarian attitudes and
greed serve the cause of labour badly. The only way in which
the country can work properly is for management and labour to
co-operate with one another and not condemn one another.

However, the sad truth is that condemnation is the only
language that some people appear to understand.

Foxy.....Of course, unions need to be more sensitive to the realities
of modern economic conditions. Sectarian attitudes and
greed serve the cause of labour badly. The only way in which
the country can work properly is for management and labour to
co-operate with one another and not condemn one another.

Yes well, the sad reality is that two consenting grown adults can't come to an agreement that suits them, without big brother sticking their two bobs worth in.

As for unions being more sensible to the times, times have changed so the costs of labor must be allowed to change with this times, as the rule that wages can only go up is where the problem lies.

Not for long though, as companies have found their own remedy, it's called 'leaving'.

What a pity!

Dear rehctub,

The scenario of "two consenting adults" coming to an
amicable agreement doesn't always work for everybody
as we know. Especially when it's not exactly a level
playing-field with one of the "consenting adults,"
holding all the power.

Yes, we are in critical times and this country requires
a re-assessment of the relationship between labour and
capital. A re-assessment which takes into account the
politics of industrial democracy, profit, and job
sharing, flexibility, and of course - long-term
planning.

What we don't need is the "kick-the-worker-today-and-
take-the-money-tomorow," attitude that comes from the
Cold War warriors who are currently at work around the
place.

Foxy, the unions are trying to protect something that will soon become un protectable as we are faced with the potential for unemployment the likes we have not seen before, at least in my life time, so workers mus be given the opportunity to protect what they see as a minimum deal, otherwise they will end up on the scrap heap because make no mistake, we are headed for a train wreck.

The closure of our car industries will just be the beginning in my view.

As a worker myself now, I can assure you that if the boss came to me and said either we cut wages by 20% or we shut several sites down, I think I woukd take the offer, simp,y because it is my view that the writing is on the wall, especially for this who are either unable, or unwilling to go to where the work is. But then again, I am lucky as my investments ten years ago have now provided me with a life long income, thanks to timber.

Dear rehctub,

I'm not as pessimistic as you and I feel that
predicting the future is risky at the best of times.
Predictions of doom and gloom are always with us -
yet investments in research and development,
the acquiring of new technologies, new skills, open up
new opportunities that were not forseen. Sometimes
people have to find new ways of being competitive
in this global market, find new ways of doing things,
and not continue with what doesn't work

Foxy I dont like to be pessimistic, but there are times when one must face reality, and I feel such times are just around the corner.

Like, where do we find jobs for up to 200,000 people, once the car industries and supporting businesses close?

Mining is on shaky ground, retail is on it's knees, uless you are Coles or Wollies, manufacturing is dead, truism looks promising but that's a fairly small sector.

Sorry Foxy, but I remain skeptical.

Dear rehctub,

I certainly don't have all the answers.
Just lots of hope in the future and
our country's innovation. Of course the
right sort of leadership would also help -
to point us in the right direction.

So what's your opinion of the right sought of leadership Foxy.

The one we have now whereby they are cutting the spending of money we don't have, or, the one that we just removed who borrowed to the hilt and saw little problem with subsidizing jobs in the likes of the ca industry, to the tune of $50,000 per worker, or 76% of the so called average wage.

You must also remember that the cuts would not be so necessary had the 600 odd billion spent by labor achieved anything other than a few unfunded dreams and the train wreck they called the NBN.

Governments must understand that there are a few key points about money, one being, it's not theirs to waste, and two being you can only spend it once.

Jus imagine what could have been for our car industry had those billions in payments gone to a reward system for locals buying local cars. Of cause, they would have needed to be cars locals wanted as well.

Dear rehctub,

I don't consider the current government as being
economically efficient at all. The same as I did
not consider what was done under John Howard as
being good economic management either. Selling off
assets, neglecting infrastructure, and the basics
that go towards making people's lives easier is not
my idea of good management. The same as I don't
approve of the Paid Parental Scheme that's being
proposed while an investment in childcare would
help greatly. And telling us to tighten our belts
while the system is being rorted by "jobs for the boys,"
is not something that's to be highly commended either.

But enough said. My idea of the right sort of leadership -
is someone who's not interested in political point-scoring,
photo-sessions, motherhood statements, spin and rhetoric.
Someone who has initiative, leadership skills, drive,
negotiating ability, willingness to take risks, and
persuasiveness. Someone who doesn't go for knee-jerk
reactions - but long-term planning - seeing the bigger
picture. Someone with the experience and nous to be able
to handle themselves on the global stage. Someone -
who is genuinely concerned with what's good for the
country and not party affiliations. Someone everyone of us
could respect.
When you next see someone like that, let me know.

Lexi, while I agree with much of what you say, the problem with getting a long term government, with vision, is that so many people who vote, vote with 100% self interest in mind, or, they only vote because they HAVE TOO and therefore often vote for who delivers the most spin.

PPL, yep, fully support your view as that's a shocker, however, there are some on this very site who think it's a great idea, simp,y because it suits them, even though they no doubt know it's unaffordable.

The truth of the matter is that our expediter outstrips our income and unless we see some real tax reform, few things will change. But one thing is for certain, and that's that we can't continue to expect less than one third of our population to pick up the slack, then pay the bills.

Dear rehctub,

The former treasurer Martin Parkinson agrees with your
take on things.

"Australia is living beyond its means. Martin Perkinson,
former Treasurer has warned that we don't collect
enough taxes to pay for public services."

Here's the link:

http://newmatilda.com/2014/04/03/more-tax-or-deeper-cuts-its-time-choose

Foxy,
Not living beyond our means but way way beyond our means and with outlandish expectations as well.

Thanks for the link Foxy.

This has been a progressive problem, one that has taken at least twenty years to surface and it is my opinion that the main culprit has been welfare, and I don't just mean dole bludgers..

You see twenty odd years ago wokers, mainly men, were presented with an unheard of opportunity, find a partner and have kids and sit back and let someone else pay to raise them. They were also in the enviable position of deciding whether it was worthwhile returning to work, or just sit back for the ride, courtesy of the other tax payers.

This in my view is where the rot started and successive governments have simply followed suit. In fact, we now have generational families who have not lifted a finger yet have raised children.

I remember taking my little ones to the movies one day and was amazed that I as a worker paid full tiilt, while a single mother in front of me received a huge discount. I thought then that was wrong, a doctors bill or a prescription maybe, but a movie ticket!

Now add to this the billions wasted on uninviteds and the hundreds of billions spent with little to show from the previous government and we are now in the mess we are.

I dont agree with Raising the GST as poorer people will loose big time.

It's my view that a true finacial transaction tax is our only hope, one that makes big business pay, while stimulating the economy through increased net wages.

Finally, we don't make anything anymore and in fact, more and more jobs are created from falsely value adding services or double ups of red tape, many of which are funded by the very taxes paid to the government to govern.

You then have the growing number who make their living by being the middle man, effectively doing very little yet often making more money than the person who made, or grew the item.

Continued

Foxy, back to leadership, there are a few relatively simple steps that could be game changes in my view, such as.

Grants. Let's take small business grants. Why on earth are these not interest free loans, loans which are to be paid back in either five years, or, when the business starts to turn a reasonable profit.

Same goes for home owner grants, as these could also be interest free loans.

Say it was a loan for ten years, which means it has to be repaid within ten years, or, even sooner if the property is sold, or it's equity borrowed against.Either way, governments must find ways to better use our money, and getting several bites a the cherrie, like grants for instance is a good place to start.

Solar is another, whereby people could have ten years to pay back a system, same goes for insulation if anyone was game enough to revisit this scheme. Because wit our looming jobs crisis, some thing has to be done because not only will we see a lot of jobs lost, but that also equates to loss of taxes, placing even more strain on our already strained revenues.

Affordable housing, why on earth dont governments lease land, whereby the home owners pays for the house, but the government always owns the land. If they owner defaults, then the house and land are sold and the proceeds go back in the kitty.

As I say, welfare is outpr biggest strain, even before we try to look after others from abroad. Just because Abbott may have stopped the boats, he hasn't stopped the bills, bills that simply were not there seven years ago.

Finally, all senior politicians should be paid more, and must hold professional indemnity insurance, so WE are not the ones left holding the can.

Hi Foxy,

You are such a dear person. You see good in everyone and rarely step into the abuse domain. That can be good and also be not so good, in the sense that it makes you vulnerable.

Your faith in humanity to do the right thing is awesome. I’m not sure that humanity rewards your optimism. That said you have succeeded where I have failed.

rehctub launched this thread with some home truths, painful as this might have been for some however, it has caused me to review my position in relation to many social issues.

I find myself being driven to oppose many of the ‘progressive’ perspectives on OLO and yet, I’m not actually, and never have been naturally “of the right”.

What I have recognized is that whilst I am naturally a centrist on many social issues, I have drifted off to the right as a consequence of opposing what I perceive to be the progressive left.

I would dearly like to be at home again as a centrist but feel locked into, and accused of being “hard right” because of my opposition to progressive ideology. You seem able to accommodate what I perceive to be left of centre perspectives, whilst maintaining a balance. I don’t always agree with either your sources or your perspectives however, I find myself drawn to the open, honest and direct expression of your views.

There can be no doubt that the ALP/Unions face a tortuous defense of their actions, likewise all those of a progressive disposition will face critical analysis of their perspectives.

So have you considered just how you will defend the perspectives you hold in the light of upcoming revelations from the RC? Will you face the same challenges as I have experienced, in defending your perspectives as public disclosures threaten your optimism? Will this drive you further to the left?

Dear spindoc,

Thank You for your kind words.

I don't like labels very much - because as I wrote to
Banjo on another discussion - I take people as I find
them and I don't like to pre-judge people.
Prejudice is an irrational, inflexible attitude, and usually
implies negative feelings - antipathy, hostility, even
fear. The key feature seems to be that prejudice is always
rooted in generalisations and so ignores the differences among
individuals. If someone is prejudiced against a certain
group they will tend to have a negative attitude toward an
individual of that group in the belief that all individuals
belonging to that group share the same traits. And as we
know that's not always the case. With politics this becomes
even more difficult. I know many so called "Leftists" who
have some very conservative views on certain issues, the
same as there are Conservative people who have some very
progressive views.

I know that on this forum we all argue rather robustly
and even passionately at times. And if the right buttons are
pressed we all will react. But I love the forum.
And slowly - stubborn as I may seem at times - I do go back
and quietly have a re-think an many, many issues. Banjo
for example - with his civil manner - has had an emormous
impact on me. I am beginning to see things from his point
of view.

What I do get turned off by - is dowright
nastiness and personal attacks.
I think we all have to remember that we're dealing
with other human beings on the other side of our computers.
And try to keep things on a more professional level, hard as
it may be at times.

I don't know how I will react in the future -
or for that matter where I will be politically either.
I love our Liberal Premier here in Victoria - Mr Napthine,
I think He's terrific. I love Melbourne's Major Mr Doyle -
who works so hard (also a Liberal) and my State Federal MP -
works very hard.