We oldies out here in euthanasia and dying with dignity-land
have been thinking about a CIR, so that the 80% of Australians
who want voluntary euthanasia, with safeguards, legislated for,
in either, a State, or Federally, can achieve some peace of mind.

Is there anyone out there who has any expertise for this agenda?

Failing that, there could be some serious civil disobedience
in the future. (no threat implied or intended)

Maybe the Federal Government, in this Very Important Election Year,
could be persuaded to do a Great Service for those of us who are
ill, and dying in agony and distress.

Are you sure 80% want it? not right now surely?
It is my view we should have that right, and that we one day will have it.
But while the thing you ask for would be great our politicians are unlikely to give us that freedom.
Your best bet seems to come from within an existing party.

Lesley, I'd be interested in knowing whether you might like to put a petition up on our petition site. It's designed so that it conforms with the requirements for submission to the Senate - so you might find a senator who will take the results and table them for you. (Best to do this before we post anything).

It also allows for collection of email addresses, and providing that people give permission would allow for follow-up at least once. So it could be used to get people to come together from around Australia.

I'd be interested in what others think. We'd like OLO to be a place where this sort of thing can be launched. The editors of the journal don't have to be in favour of the proposition either to support discussions and petitions.

Lesley;

Have you heard of Dr Death?

He dont care about anything, cept death do you part.

Hi Ho Silver, away

My suggestion is a follows:

WORLD FEDERATION MANIFESTO:

The World Federation of Right to Die Societies (an international non-governmental organisation) is aware of the increasing concern of many individuals over their right to die with dignity. Believing in the rights and freedom of all persons, we affirm this right to die with dignity, meaning in peace and without suffering.

All competent adults - regardless of their nationalities, professions, religious beliefs, and ethical and political views, who are suffering unbearably from an incurable illness, should have the possibility of various choices at the end of their lives. Death is unavoidable. We strongly believe that the manner and time of dying should be left to the decision of the individual assuming such demands do not result in harm to society, other than the sadness associated with death.

The voluntarily expressed will of individuals, once they are fully informed of their diagnosis, prognosis and available means of relief, should be respected by all concerned as an expression of intrinsic human rights.

Tokyo 2004/Toronto 2006

We humbly beseech our elected representatives to uphold The World Manifesto values and principals to ensure voluntary euthanasia is legislated for and made available to all Australians who choose this option in writing, being of sound mind.

Mary Walsh
www.yourchoiceindying.com

No doubt the Dr Death referred to is Dr Jayant Patel, the Indian trained doctor whose name is directly linked to twenty deaths and possibly up 80 deaths. He was able to work in Queensland because other health care workers covered up his killing spree, except for one very brave nurse.

Now that is a genuine Doctor Death best avoided at all costs because his motives were not compassionate or measured, but stupidly incompetent.

Mary Walsh
www.yourchoiceindying.com

to GrahamY
Do you think that Mary Walsh's opinion under the heading World Federation Manifesto is getting close to the mark, under which we could start a petition? Also, to Mary, thank you for your suggestion it
looks terrific. I am not a solicitor, nor do I have the skills to
fine tune Mary's Post. This is turning into a Petition and not
a CIR, but that doesn't matter. We have to get something out there
which has some Punch! I still think that this Election Year is the
time to do it.
Lesley

Good idea, Lesley and also GY thanks for your wonderful suggestion.

There have been a few discussions on euthanasia I've taken part in, and it would be great if this discussion would result in a petition.

With Christopher Pyne as our minister for the aged, who is in favour of forcing elderly people to suffer a long and painful death, it can be a very long and painful journey. Starting by taking small steps such as a petition is a good plan.

You have my support.

i was breathless with anticipation when i saw "cir", at last ozzies are waking up thinks i!

no, it was about euthanasia. what a let down.

people, cir is the foundation of democracy, not a pill for weary oldies. still, quite right- if we had cir, we could have euthanasia whether pollies liked it or not. also, fair taxation, sustainable economy, peace, good schools, good hospitals, maybe even enough cbd parking.

would be a vast joke on the pollies tho', if this change to democracy was propelled by the most conservative cohort of the electorate.

Demos, Hope you have recovered your respiratory function!! Whilst I noted some small interest in our efforts, let me tell you Demos, that
'weary oldies', conservative though our parents may have been in the past, The Times are a'changin'. We marched in the 60's and 70's, you probably weren't born then. Remember Vietnam? Remember anti-nukes?
If Citizen Initiated Referenda is your Thing,(even though you sound academic about the whole proposal), Lend Us a Hand!! You might yet get your free parking? in the CBD!

Lesley

Also Celivia, thank you for your reasoned comment, and we look forward to your support.

Lesley

Perhaps we could add a CIR on the right not to be compelled to attend a polling booth.
Now, don't get me wrong folks. I believe in the right to vote and would actively encourage everyone to take part in the democratic process but there is something very, very wrong with a "democracy" which compels people to attend the ballot box - especially when the majority believe it also means they must actually vote. It's a system that makes for lazy, cynical politicians - esp in the major parties.
There would be no such thing as a "safe seat" any more!

lesley,
I am no expert on Citizen Innitiated Referenda, and I don't even know which countries have it, but basicly how it works is this.

If X number of people pettition the Government about a specific issue then the Government MUST hold a referendum at the next election in regards to the issue. Obviously the number must be reasonably high so as to prevent frivilous issues being brought forward. As Governments do not like to be shown up by referenda, it has the effect of Governments being more consious of the wants and needs of the electors, when passing legislation.

I would be pleased if someone can give info on what countries have CIR and how it works.

Me thinks it may be too democratic for our polititions to consider it, as they like their power.

banjo, that last sentence is the problem, alright. as far as i know the list of nations that have cir is as follows:

1. switzerland.

all the other democracies- ain't.

lesley, i may be older than you. i wuz dropping bombs on laotian peasants and beginning to wonder if john wayne was telling the whole story back in '68. mylai, and the profound indifference with which americans greeted this story, suggested i was on the wrong team.

ozzies can have democracy if they want it, but most have no notion of what it is. it certainly is not participation in election of people you wouldn't to loan money to, so they can do as they please with the nation's future.

democracy is cir, direct election, and open conduct of public affairs. accept no substitutes.

c'mon,ozzies- the electorate in a body is wiser, fairer, and stronger than those parasites, let's sort them out.

Thank you demos. I received some information today regarding our topic. So, for a Citizen Initiated Referendum, the proponent only needs 2% of the population (what is 2% of 20+ million?) (or in State figures NSW ?5 million?). My advisor says that it is a herculean task of communication and organisation. He also says that The Feds. have nothing to do with the States with regard to something like this. Also the signatories have to have the correct copy for their own State. If a petition is not worded correctly, or sent to the appropriate House it will almost certainly be rejected. His organisation in Vic.(Dying with Dignity)
has 8,000 signatures 90% of which are hand written, only 10% electronic. (This is a petition, not CIR)
He is sure that 100% electronic signatures will be rejected, but that the Rejection would make a good story for the Press.
A Newspoll professional survey earlier this year showed 80% support for the terminally or hopelessly ill person to have controlled access
to medication in order to die on their own terms. Only 14% opposed.
If any of you want to see the results of this survey go to
www.dwdv.org.au and follow the links.
Switzerland and Italy have CIR's, and I think just one other country
(possibly America)
So folks, I've just about exhausted my resources on this one, I'm
sure there will be much more out there. I was hoping that there were professionals, either on this Forum, or known to people who contributed to this Forum who would feel strongly enough on this issue
to do a pro bono job for their Auntie Maude, Mother Father, or Grandma. Over to you guys. Let's get this show on the road.

Lesley

lesley, several countries use referenda quite often, but i believe only switzerland has citizen initiated referenda. big difference: if you write the question, you control the answer. remember that farce about the republic?

the federal government of the usa does not use referenda, although about half the states have some form of citizen input. california, for instance, recently fired their governor, giving arnie his big chance.

the fatal flaw in cir, is the 'c'. no matter what howard says, you're not a ctizen, you're a subject of the crown. all legal activity in a monarchy springs from the will of the monarch(as translated for mortals by the prime minister). consequently, no matter the language or form, the people can only petition, never command, the crown.

the result is in new zealand with immense effort, the people have brought 2 (clayton's) referenda to parliament, only to have them simply ignored.

i'm afraid a monarchy can never be a democracy. if you want euthanasia, or anything else, you have to start by establishing a democratic republic.

fortunately, pollies have a finely tuned sense of survival. given a choice of euthanasia legislation from parliament, or civil unrest threatening the guild members, they will give a little.

Thank you Demos for explaining so clearly why we can't get past first base with politicians.

We do need to be citizens of Australia in order to have a genuine say in how this country is run.

I genuinely believe we already have civil unrest with the subject of voluntary euthanasia because there is now documented evidence of at least 40 people knowingly and willingly putting themselves forward in the legal wrangle of manufacturing a prohibited substance. At 80 what can a government do that ill health hasn't already set the tone for?

The real drama for the government is that the elderly, breaking the law, has everything to do with the frustrations felt for thelack of support. Support for a growing number of people who wish to die at a time of their choosing, and nothing to do with profit.

The fact is that theirs is a victimless crime, undertaken only to bring a sense of peace and tranquility to an otherwise terminal prognosis. Already severely traumatised with their living status, their dying one, needs to be better managed. With Nembutal!

We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking our fight right up to both the State and Federal Government doorstep. People are getting to a point where they don't care what is considered lawful because their wellbeing is a much more personal and immediate need.

Given the way people are kept "alive" by being drugged into a stupor it is rather a toothless tiger the Government keeps terriorising us with. The one real problem we have is that unlike lobbyists in general we have neither the physical nor mental capacity to be truly representative in an open forum...sometimes just breathing is an effort, making it hard to have governments heed us.

The baby boomers will help us through the ballot box hopefully.

Graham Y - how does one access 'the petition site' you mentioned?

Communicat, You are only compelled to vote or pay the statutory penalty because you agreed to that when you applied or requested, in some form or another (contract), to be added to the electoral roll for the specific purpose of being an elector and voting for these grubs who purport to represent the interests of the voting public. The law requires that an elector must vote but the law does not require that you apply to be an elector or be on the roll. If you have some disagreement with the so called rule of law made by the elected politicians then first remove yourself from the electoral roll and out from under their false authority.
If you wish to have the politicians change to laws to prevent you from further suffering, pain and low standard of life, you do not ask, you notify them of your will and if they prefer that you suffer that is something that the law then does not allow. Petitions are provided for those who can be misled and who are not able to claim or enforce their personal inalienable rights. How many petitions have ever been successful, it only gives them to opportunity to so no when in fact you don't require their consent as it is your decision and not theirs.

Dear Young Dan, you are assuming that we are all in a physical capacity to enable us to be independent of government and the health system. Unfortunately this is not always the case.

Whether you want to vote or not is entirely your own decision but we are talking about, and for those, not able to represent themselves due to severe medical trauma.

Taking oneself off the roll doesn't help an over 70, who is not compelled to vote anyhow. And they can't physically help themselves to die so require legislation to enable others to assist them, having made their individual choice.

Petitions may be seen as a "waste of time" but regardless of the public face the Government puts on, I believe they do secretly "get the message" and I name the David Hicks scenario as an example. It was only by ongoing and incessant nagging by their constituents the politicians actually sat up and took note. For five years they had left him in Guantanamo Bay to be encarated without trial. Quick trial - and bingo with an election foreshadowed, he is believed to have landed secretly in Adelaide today.

This was achieved by the roots moving the branches above them until the branches were compelled to heed the roots...We are the roots of society and the branches cannot survive indefinitely without us, regardless of how long they ignore our movement....we will make a difference. We may be unseen from above but we are there nonetheless.

Mary Walsh
www.yourchoiceindying.com